He was doing great there until he decided to tee off on the Americans. How anyone can make a valid comparison between Islamofacists and religion in America is beyond me and sadly he seriously dilutes what was a very powerful message.

"As welcome as a melonoma"
Kinda sums it up.
Bob,he did'nt tee off on Americans he took a shot at religion.
And i agree with him.

I agree with everything he says in this rant, but if you go to his website, the rest of his world view appears to consider America equally bad as militant Islam. That loses credibility for me. Christopher Hitchens does it better.

This guy is a LIBERAL who finally woke up and smelled the Sharia.

He's half way to having a clue. He'll have covered the other half when he admits all religions are not created equal.

These guys make me laugh, frankly. They rave on about how bad religion is, but their entire moral envelope is encompassed by Christianity.

I think this guy is right on! I live in the USA and am perplexed why Canadians put up with this Islamic attitude (their behaviors are BS). Don't get me wrong -- I love Canadians and wish them to always excel away from oppression and respect others' religions -- although... you are being "violated every day" from the behaviors of Islamist's -- WAKE UP CANADA !! and Please provide an example for the USA -- YOU guy and gals are GREAT (and ALWAYS have been) !!! Best regards, Orlin from Marquette, Michigan USA

It didn't seem to me that he was teeing off on America. And if he is a liberal then good, the alarm clock has to go off sometime.

Good video. Spot on. Who is he?

randall g... could you link his website? Not that I'm an American basher (quite the opposite, in fact) but would like to see what makes him tick. Thanks.

Gotta agree with him regarding how lily-livered Europeans have become.

Nice points.
Unfortunately, he draws incorrect conclusions when he goes off on "all religions".

Every single aspect of civilization that he hopes to preserve from burgeoning Islamism and creeping sharia, exists only due to the past and on-going influences of Christian faith. This man's own parents and grandparents, not so long ago, lived in a time when public expressions of Christian faith were accepted and acknowledged as having an overwhelmingly positive impact on social life, public decency and personal freedom. For those who don't like that fact, it is simply history that less than two generations ago western civilization and culture without the influence of Christianity, (whether or not you were a believer) was unthinkable.

Those who think they can preserve the greatness of European and North American culture while dismantling its foundation are living in a fool's paradise, and only hastening the ultimate victory of Islamic fundamentalism.

Orlin, you've just visited one of the Canadian websites whose adherents have awakened to the danger a long time ago, or were NEVER indifferent to the problem of Islamofacism to begin with.

Time to get rid of the "Thou shalt not kill" crap and leave Justice to the morally superior Humans that can mete it out far better than the Judges and Prisons.

Who the hell came up with this rule that Murder was wrong and made it Illegal, we kill babies don't we?

Murder is merely retro-active Abortion where we made a mistake to not kill them before they were allowed to be born.

Wake-up people , embrace the 1-World Government proposed by Maurice Strong and the Liberals in canada, time to ban religion and worship the U.N. and a Global leader.

Well said, Rudy. Kind of like denying the existence of , what , hundreds of great European Christian cathedrals built over the span of many centuries.

I hope the politicos in Europe and here soon figure out they got a problem when they gave in to all extremist demands. Here in Ontario I know they do not have a clue of what they are doing by what our fearless Premier McGuinty did after he was elected. He actually considered putting into effect Sharia law for our Muslim friends and neighbours. Nice guy.

Just watched an hour-long interview of Cliff Chadderton on CPAC. He was reminiscing about his tour of battle for 4 months in 1944, up until he was wounded.

Nothing will EVER take away from what this Iron Man, and Men like him, did to liberate Belgium, France, The Netherlands, in the 1940s. Europeans would do well to remember that sometimes you have to fight, and maybe even die, for what's right.

His name is Pat Condell and his website is:
http://youtube.com/user/patcondell
...he's been posting rants like this for months...
got into a fun little spat with Berkeley University a little while ago...
they accused him of hate speech so he posted another
video telling them to stuff it.

Whoops, meant to post a link to the Berkeley "hate speech" story too (sorry to double-post):
http://ummahnewslinks.com/2007/05/17/comic-in-us-hate-speech-row.aspx

hmmmm. the beginning of the 2nd muslim invasion of europe is upon us? time will tell.

anyways, on a personal scale:

scene: closest bus stop

time: early afternoon today

a muslim woman in headgear is waiting for the slow arriving sunday bus, I conclude she is a captive audience.

"eh, yous muslims consider dogs 'unclean'? watch this!

whereupon self plants a big fat smooch right on the mouth of my spayed shepard mix.

LOL !!!

I guess that made me 'unclean' for some indeterminate time. oh, and the bacteria question? not! she's probably had her tongue on every plate, bowl and spoon in the place in the year and a half she's been scarfing down leftovers, so the 'exchange' has long since happened.

LOL !!!

Roger: "Time to get rid of the "Thou shalt not kill" crap and leave Justice to the morally superior Humans..."

You've got an imam in mind for the next supreme court chief justice?

From Pat Condell's site:

And I don’t have much of a formal education – which is good, because it means I can actually read and write. But it also means I don’t have a great deal of what you might call actual knowledge.

He's right about the last part, certainly.

Farmer Bill: Here in Ontario, the CONSERVATIVE party has proposed to pay for ALL faith based schools. Who do you think will benefit the most out of this. Not the Amish, I imagine.

At least McGuinty looked at the issue, and ultimate made a decision that was right on Sharia.

THis will be my first election where I do not vote conservative in Ontario.

All our politicians are morons, or cowards, when it comes to the Islamic situation.

Pat Condell for prime minister would have my vote.

The Battle of Lepanto, baby.

Google it.

"THis will be my first election where I do not vote conservative in Ontario."

That's because you are a Liberal sockpuppet, "Lori". Most Ontarians care more about the odious 2.5 billion a year Liberal health tax than the 400 million earmarked for religious schools.

Incidently, if publicly funded religious schools are so bad why do so many non-Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools in Ontario? They're generally considered superior, is one explanation. Other provinces fund religious schools so it's not exactly uncharted territory.

Within the context of a 95 billion dollar budget Tory's 400 million school promise is chicken feed. The McGuinty government is an abomination a 100 times greater than any policy John Tory can conceive of and anyone who is not dedicated to removing the Liberals from office is, of course, an enemy of the Ontario people.

Re Ontario Election. I live in BC but allow me to say that John Tory has made a huge mistake. I'm a strong conservative but if I lived in Ontario, I would have to vote Liberal.

Andrew: Liberal Sockpuppet?? Me? Not bloody likely, I probably was a Reform party member, Alliance member, and Conservative member party before you.

But, this is not a mere 400 million dollar mistake. It is a historic mistake. First, it will cost way more than 400 Million - when was the last time a new program offered during an election cost what was promised.

Second, that cost is for the existing numbers. Do you seriously believe that the hundreds of thousands (and growing more rapidly than any other religion through both birth and immigration), Muslims who now are going public school are not going to be shifted into Islamic schools in very very large nummbers?

Do you really see any non-Muslims going to those schools?? I don't think the Catholic experience is generalizable. And what is the Muslim population of that other province which funds faith based schooling?

And once given, it will take nothing short of a citizen revolution to take this thing away.

I liked John Tory when he ran for Mayor of Toronto. I voted for him... but this is stupid. Just plain stupid, and really makes me question his judgement.

Yes, this issue is far more important than the budget issues which are impacted by what happens in Ottawa and in the US much more that by which party happens to be the governing party in Ontario at the time.

"How anyone can make a valid comparison between Islamofacists and religion in America is beyond me and sadly he seriously dilutes what was a very powerful message."

Well most brits don't like any kind of religious nutters and America is rife with them. I didn't get the impression that he thinks they were as bad though, I don't either personaly.

Where he lost me was by not mentioning the fact that the vast majority of muslims in Europe are thoroughly decent, moderate folks. And I don't see how he gets the impression that they're somehow untouchable as they're regularly blasted in a lot of the right wing papers over here.

"Every single aspect of civilization that he hopes to preserve from burgeoning Islamism and creeping sharia, exists only due to the past and on-going influences of Christian faith."

Western civilization was rocking the show before Jesus was born. Christianity has played a big part in the history of the west but the there's a lot more to our civilization than Christianity.

"And I don't see how he gets the impression that they're somehow untouchable as they're regularly blasted in a lot of the right wing papers over here." (Jose)

Like Jylands-Posten, and, er...er...

"Well most brits don't like any kind of religious nutters and America is rife with them."
(snicker! splutter! guffaw!)

Stop it, Jose! My sides are splitting!

"I'm a strong conservative but if I lived in Ontario, I would have to vote Liberal."

Then you are the furthest thing from a strong conservative, clown. You are a Liberal who supports Liberals.

"Yes, this issue is far more important than the budget issues which are impacted by what happens in Ottawa and in the US much more that by which party happens to be the governing party in Ontario at the time."

I'm guessing you are one of the 39% of Canadian female tax filers who don't pay any income tax.

You people need to shut the hell up and listen to those of us WHO PAY THE TAXES THAT MAKE ONTARIO HAPPEN ARE YOU SMELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLING WHAT I AM COOKING, SISTER?????????????

I got 2.5 billion reasons not to vote McGuinty. TWO POINT FIVE BILLION IS A BIGGER NUMBER THAN 400 MILLION LORI, MUCH BIGGER.

Anyone here who does not believe he took a good whack at the Americans should listen to the last three or four sentences of his discourse. It was gratuitous and completely undeserved.

Without a basic religious belief that includes positing God's existence and His moral qualities, none of the values this man espouses -- freedom, justice, equality, free-speech, etc. have any foundation in objective reality. They become arbitrary human artifacts in an uncreated, uncaring universe in which there are no moral absolutes and the idea of "rights" attaching themselves to human beings makes no more sense than rights attaching themselves to rocks -- both are nothing more than unintended aggregates of matter thrown together by a mindless universe.

He thinks it would be a good thing to rid public life of what he calls "personal religion" or "personal faith". Unfortunately, the "public atheism" which would presumably take its place ultimately jeopardizes rather than safeguards human rights, which can only objectively exist if God has created us, and done so in such a way that we have value beyond that of a rock, pond scum, or a frog.

I suspect that a society rooted in Christian conceptions of God, man, and reality would be better equipped to withstand the threat of Islamism (which is real) than a society steeped in demoralizing, atheistic secularism.

Richard Ball, you are wrong that there is no morality without religion. Ayn Rand came up with a detailed philosophical basis for one, and virtually all atheists like me are moral people, so we are proof by example that you are wrong.

Having said that, I have come to the somewhat uncomfortable conclusion that most people do need religious faith to be moral. You yourself have admitted that without your faith you would consider your fellow humans no better than pond scum. I take you seriously and I sincerely hope your faith is never tested to the breaking point.

Now, having accepted this reality, I have come to understand better the role of Christianity in the development of western civilization. It has, in modern times, come to accept the value of reason and science. This has resulted in the best culture that results in the most benefits for the most people. I belive Islam has become the last great threat to this, in concert with their leftist fellow travelers. I now consider myself a Christian atheist.

Richard nailed it

"and virtually all atheists like me are moral people"

Please. It is often difficult to communicate with atheists due to the "morality gap" that exists between a normal person and an atheist. They are a horribly dishonest people who, when given a chance to lie, will take it 100% of the time if they think they can get away with it. I can't stand them.

In response to Richard Ball's claim that basic human values like freedom and justice can't exist without a belief in God, randall g wrote this:

Richard Ball, you are wrong that there is no morality without religion. Ayn Rand came up with a detailed philosophical basis for one, and virtually all atheists like me are moral people, so we are proof by example that you are wrong.

Leaving aside the confusing mingling of "morality" and "values," I don't doubt that there are moral atheists.

At the same time, I think it's nonsense to say that Ayn Rand or her followers ever came up with a 'detailed philosophical basis' for anything, let alone a coherent theory of basic human rights.

After all, Rand's self-declared intellectual heir, Leonard Peikoff, thinks there is no such thing as a basic human right to health care, no more than there is a basic human right to a taxpayer-funded haircut: how silly is that?

It is possible to have morality without religion, it's just very difficult to maintain it. It all has to run off enlightened self-interest, which is all too often easily overwhelmed by the prospect of short-term gain and low punishment rates.

The thing about faith is that it is simple. If there's a supernatural being out there that knows everything you've ever done and will, with a 100% success rate, inflict punishment upon you for transgressions of its laws and reward you for obeying, then you don't have to spend years reading and digesting Greek philosophy and plot out rationally why you shouldn't take a monkey wrench to the head of the sixth government bureaucrat who passed your problem off to another department. (The logic of how one is supposed to keep religion, which so greatly informs how one is to relate to others, private thus far eludes me.)

This simplicity makes faith powerful, and therein lies the problem. If faith is powerful, then its misapplication will have disastrous consequences, such as we see in the Middle East today. Thus, it is understandable that Pat Condell lashes out at faith and calls for it to be devalued. Unfortunately for Pat, he chooses to fight faith with secularism, which is significantly weaker.

Stephen, there is no "basic human right" for anything. Including healthcare. We have evolved a social contract that mandates we take care of all people, but that is not "a basic human right", it is an expression of our desire to be decent in our actions towards our fellow humans. However, it must be recognized that this kind of social contract requires some of us to assume more of the burden than others. In other words, some of us are forced to be slaves. Consider that.

A basic right to health care?

Look, is there a basic right to food and shelter? Does the government mandate that we all live in the same kind of house, and eat the same quality food?

OBviously not. Welfare gives a certain minimum, which can be very low, but those who earn more get much much better food and shelter for themselves and their families. Its the main incentive for working hard and trying to get the best job you can.

And BY THE WAY Andrew, I earn enough to pay more than 100K annually in taxes. You know nothing about me.

So, is health care more basic than food and shelter? The Canadian principle of a "right to healthcare" is nothing more than the second most successful political ploy in our history. Right after multicultulralism.

These comments about the so called "Christian foundation" of our essential ideals seem to negate the history concept of fairly successful societies like China at its prime, Greece, Rome, etc. Philosphers in all those societies espoused every one of the ideals quoted above.

They did not need a white bearded old man with a mean streak to exist.

Wheredo you think Christian philosphers got them from?

Lori, the "bearded old man" thing is getting pretty old by now. It is gratuitously offensive and I'm sure that is not what you meant to be.

Besides, you're wrong. :) The ancient cultures ALL believed in gods as the basis of morality.

As to rights though, I agree with you. There is no "right" to health care which compares to the right to self defense. Health care is a service provided by humans, self defense is by definition inherent to one's self and thus a gift of God. Or the creator, or the blind watchmaker, whatever floats your seadoo.

Same with speech, movement, property and association. These are not abilities granted by a human agency. All else is by agreement, which can change.

Here in Canada our government is having difficulty with the concept of property. The truth of it is you have as much right to the products of your own labor as you do to your life. But property is inconvenient for socialists, so the Charter of Rights enshrines the "Right To Collective Bargaining" but not the right to property.

Taxpayer funded religious education and public education generally is one of those things that falls under "right to someone ELSE'S property", that being tax funds, and is a bad idea.

Public education is a social good, because it addresses the inequality of opportunity between rich and poor. When properly administered, anyway.

Religious education for your kids though, that is a handout. You want your kid to learn the Bible, Koran, Torah, Guru Granth Sahib, good on you. Send them to Sunday School. That's one major reason we have tax exempt churches.

John Tory is a Big Government socialist and therefore an imbecile. I did not vote for him as PC party leader.

Get a PC majority in Ontario first, then go through the party and kick his sorry a$$ into shape that way. Allowing Dalton the Sly to stay in will be a horrendous disaster.

John Tory did pull a stunt with his faith based school funding, did not he? Amazing times we live in.

If the Greeks and Romans had no GODS, does that mean all those crossword questions I answer are wrong.

This guy was going along quite well until he invoked the tired, specious claim that all religions are equally bad and damnable. The guy comes off as a disciple of Hitchens, if I had to peg his perspective.

It's one thing to sound off about "all religions are bad," but it is entirely disingenuous not to mention the atrocities underpinned by atheism that have scourged mankind, even in recent history. Mao's Great Leap Forward; The Russian Communist Revolution; The Killing Fields of Cambodia. One wonders what any of the 30 to 50 million Chinese starved by the atheist Mao would say about his atheist "moral code." Might s/he/they toss it into the rubbish bin as well?

We might ask, what license or warrant does Hitchens or any other atheist have to judge the morals of Mao or Stalin? By what authority does any atheist declare another's morality less than or greater than his own?

Lori and others,

I was against Tory's funding idea as well. However, after closer consideration, it's not a bad idea.

The only schools most here would find offensive in terms of public funding would be Islamic schools, I'd imagine. Probably because their madrassas are hotbeds for teaching hate and terrorism.

By bringing these schools under strict educational guidelines and management, its unlikely they'll be able to get away with this.

If allowed to continue the way they are - and more and more of them are opening all the time - we have no idea what is being taught. And one can only imagine and expect the worst.

"and virtually all atheists like me are moral people"

Really? Timothy McVeigh, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. etc. were all atheists. Bad argument.

As a Ontario Conservative, I too am a bit miffed at Tory's policy on funding faith-based schools. I do think there my be an upside to this though.
The several teacher's unions have been playing havoc with the taxpayers for many years now. With the establishment of these schools, enrollment in the present systems is going to drop like a rock. Less teachers, less political influence. The present "private" or faith-based schools are mainly non-union as some faiths do not believe in them and others are not interested. The other benefit is the improvement in education through the hiring of only the best of teachers. The mediocre may well see themselves unemployed.
Give Tory a chance. He cannot be any worse than what we have now.

Atheism is negatively correlated with youth participation in team sports. Atheists tend to be selfish and uncoachable due to their hatred of authority in any form (especially male elders: see Lori and her screed against old white men for example).

I do not have confidence that the governments have the will, or the ability, to monitor classroom curriculum. They are actually fully legally entitled to do it now, but when was the last time anyone ever heard of it being checked.

It would be politically embarrassing, I can see CAIR-CAN making every inspection into a hate crime, and every discovery into a lawsuit. No government will risk it.

This will become an enormous and expensive cannard of worms.

On the issue of needing a God to justify our values, I offer the following example - Buddhism.

Most people regard Buddhism as a peaceful and benevolent religion. 400 million adherents.

Buddhism is totally different faith than christianity, and predates it. The Buddha rejected subservience of any kind to a supreme God and denied belief in an eternal self. While he believed that karma would determine the kind of rebirth and quality of life one would have at rebirth, he didn't believe it was a self or soul that was reborn.

The noble eightfold path of buddhism is a sacred path with eight branches called right views of understanding, right aspirations, right speech, right conduct or action, right livelihood, right effort or endeavor, right mind control or concentration, and right mindfulness.

While Buddha did not deny the existence of gods, he taught that the worship of gods obstructed one's quest for nirvana. To him the gods inhabit the cosmos and are impermanent like all of us, so they too must escape rebirth through nirvana.

Rebuttal? Andrew? Still there?

And finally, for Andrew....

First, before you "rebut", I am not a buddhist.

And, if you feel the need identify what I wrote as a "screed", look first to your calling me a "liberal sockpuppet", and then to this tasteful comment:

"I'm guessing you are one of the 39% of Canadian female tax filers who don't pay any income tax.

You people need to shut the hell up and listen to those of us WHO PAY THE TAXES THAT MAKE ONTARIO HAPPEN ARE YOU SMELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLING WHAT I AM COOKING, SISTER?????????????"

Enlightened conservative thinking at its finest no doubt. That's the kind of posting that will convince Canadians who come to this blog and read what we write and discuss to choose Conservatism over Socialism, right?

Thanks for your input.

I'm a conservative and live in Ontario.

Until Tory opened his mouth, I was SOOOO looking forward to punting McShifty. Now I see no difference between them.

They're both disasters. Why can't this province produce leaders worth the name? Why are we perpetually led by jackasses and fools?

The last thing on earth I want is a segregated society. To think of event he possibility of publicly funded Saudi-taught maddrassas in Ontario is infuriating.

He was doing great until he condemned religion in general--if he is indeed against sharia law--why assume that your friends (Christians) are your enemies? A sincere adherence to the traditional religion of the West is the ideal counter-punch to the threat of Islam.

He had me until the last 30-seconds.

I mean it's not like atheists (Nazis, Communists, pro-abortionists) have killed millions of people or anything.

"I'm a conservative and live in Ontario."

No you're not. You're a politically correct pinko who is way too young to pay income taxes in any significant amount. You probably think we need McGuinty's 2.5 BILLION dollar tax to fight the Christians and the KKK, you jackass.

"Now I see no difference between them."

That's because you are bad at mathematics and you are a moral degenerate unable to distinguish between two very, very diferent entities.

Let's go back to Lori:

"Most people regard Buddhism as a peaceful and benevolent religion."

That's because they are ignorant stools who haven't studied Buddhism as much as I have. Lori, did you know that in Asia sick people are considered "evil" because it is assumed they did something in a previous life (karma) to deserve their leprosy? And that Zen Bushido was responsible for the Rape of Nanking? Have you ever read the stories of how the Burmese sacked Ayutthaya? You can read more about this so-called peaceful and benevolent religion here:

http://www.amazon.com/Zen-War-Brian-Daizen-Victoria/dp/0742539261/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-3347075-4450044?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188229199&sr=8-1

"I'm a conservative and live in Ontario."

No you're not. You're a politically correct pinko who is way too young to pay income taxes in any significant amount. You probably think we need McGuinty's 2.5 BILLION dollar tax to fight the Christians and the KKK, you jacktard.

"Now I see no difference between them."

That's because you are bad at mathematics and you are a moral degenerate unable to distinguish between two very, very diferent entities.

Let's go back to Lori:

"Most people regard Buddhism as a peaceful and benevolent religion."

That's because they are ignorant stools who haven't studied Buddhism as much as I have. Did you know that in Asia sick people are considered "evil" because it is assumed they did something in a previous life (karma) to deserve their leprosy? And that Zen Bushido was responsible for the Rape of Nanking? Have you ever read the stories of how the Burmese sacked Ayutthaya? I have.

Ontario comes down to:
another 20 million dollar librano$$ "adscam" kick back slush fund, or paying for all the mosques under construction in Toronto for eternity. Is more kick back liberal "business as usual", worse than paying for burkas and mosques for eternity? I don't think I can vote for that socialist slob Tory.
He is a "connected" blue blood Toronto "progressive".

Saw him at the Lebanon war "peace" rally last summer stumping for Hez (spit) support,...dhimmi idiot!

How many Mosques are under constuction in Toronto right now, and where did all the burkas come from??

One thing's for sure, Ontarians will pay!

Oh, and Phantom, my apologies. You are right about my gratuitous comment - I wasn't trying to offend, but sometimes the easy cliche just pops out. There was no need for it, and it actually weakened the comment.

I'm a conservative and live in Ontario."
No you're not. You're a politically correct pinko who is way too young to pay income taxes in any significant amount. You probably think we need McGuinty's 2.5 BILLION dollar tax to fight the Christians and the KKK, you jacktard.
"Now I see no difference between them."
That's because you are bad at mathematics and you are a moral degenerate unable to distinguish between two very, very diferent entities.

What an amazingly telling statement about the psychological condition and age of the author.

"What an amazingly telling statement about the psychological condition and age of the author."

If this offends your precious sensibilities then suck it up, buttercup. Canada needs fewer perpetually offended and more plainspoken people.

"I don't think I can vote for that socialist slob Tory."

That's because you are a pinko too.

Incidentally, we are 6 weeks from an Ontario election and I count more Blogging Tories opposed to John Tory and the PC party than those who support him. I just wanted to point that out as a matter of record the Blogging "Tories" generally support Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal Party of Ontario.

What an amazingly telling statement about the psychological condition and age of the author.

Posted by: rattfuc at August 27, 2007 11:54 AM

Yes, Andrew is quite a prize. What a great Christian! Must make the rest of the cult on SDA's proud!!

Gary said "Whaaaaaaaa! I want my bottle!"

Poor baby.

Andrew,

Only a halfwit would claim to be a John Tory supporter AND a conservative.

Tory's policies are the same, watered down pap as McShifty's. He isn't a conservative. He's a red tory which is the alternate term for Liberal. He's promised to spend as much or more than McShifty. That isn't conservative. He's promised to fund religious schools. Since Catholic schools are already public, what do you think he meant? Muslim. He's doing the Liberals identity politics crap.

And as for the attack, reread what you wrote and if you have any shame, you'd be embarrassed about how stupid you made yourself look. Or maybe you aren't bright enough to know better. Look up the meaning of Pinko. Fool.

Gary said "Whaaaaaaaa! I want my bottle!"

Poor baby.

Posted by: Andrew

Truly clever, wow...I'm speechless! I bow to your superior intellect.

Neither pinko nor dimmi Andrew, you argue like both though.

Andrew, you won't find a more fiscal or social conservative than I. What I find telling (and no, I'm not offended) is your use of the phrases "Jacktard, pinko and moral degenerate", to name a few. Your attacks on others with differing views is puerile. If you cannot debate
others without employing the use of demeaning words, you have no business debating them at all.

"Tory's policies are the same, watered down pap as McShifty's."

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Most of us productive Ontarians WHO PAY TAXES UNLIKE STUDENTS passed high school math and understand that FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOES NOT EQUAL (>, !=, ETC.) TWO POINT FIVE BILLION YOU MORON.

400,000,000 != 2,500,000,000

"He's a red tory which is the alternate term for Liberal"

So are you so I don't see the problem.

Andrew,

Clearly you're just trolling as I find it hard to believe you're employed.

I agree this was an obvious ploy to buy Muslim votes, and perhaps some RC and Jewish votes, but does he really think that Muslim immigrants are EVER going to vote Conservative in significant numbers?

They'll just take the free religious schooling, laugh at the stupidity of Canadians, and continue to support whichever party their leaders tell them to support. I.E. the party which is least likely to say "no" as they request more and more special treatment.

In the end, they will all end up voting NDP and liberal, as has happened in Europe, where Islamic block voting forms the core of left-wing city governments, and not too far in the future, national governments.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

As an ex-Ontarioan, it's refreshing to see what I left behind chase it's collective tail. But hey, a healthy debate no less. Nice to see the snooze button is finally kaput and you do seem to be waking up to the level of retardation of the political idiots stealing your money. Too bad you had to do it on a western blogsite, why not start one of your own?

I'll give you an authentic American viewpoint:

Your religion, or lack thereof, is none of my business. Likewise, mine is none of yours. You are free to believe any damn fool thing you like, but are NOT free to demand I believe it as well.

You can be a "new" Druid and celebrate the wrong solstice, but I'm going to consider you an idiot, guaranteed. And not quietly, either.

Or you can be a Wahhabi fundamentalist Muslim, and beat you wives and sisters to death over your illusory "honor", but I'm not required (or likely) to respect your beliefs, and I'll probably try and get you arrested and punished for assault and battery if not outright murder.

'Cause I'm a "giver"...

ON'ians have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight when it comes to supporting a "faith-based" school system. It seems this may well be the election question and it is huge.

Do go beyond the opinions of the so called "educational elites/decision makers" as to how successful this pathway actually is likely to be. AB has spent millions/billions on educational change which often amounted to change for the sake of change rather than actually benefiting students.

AB embarked on the Charter School path in the mid 1980's without the benefit of hindsight. After 25 years, the process is virtually non-reversible - for better or for worse. Of course many of the educational elites will praise the system - they invented it and allowed it to grow. New schools are likely to be of the P3 variety - public/private/partnership and it's not a huge leap to figure where this is likely to go. The charter school program has basically become a language/culture/faith based system with the exception of special needs students. The number of students being home schooled has jumped considerably in the past few years. The quality of life/education in the public schools has arguably generally gone down and is likely to go down further.

The one major difference is that the private/charter/whatever schools do not, by law, have to accept students. The public system does not have this luxury - it must accept, by law, all students who arrive on their doorstep. Of course the climate within schools other than public is going to be considered by many people to be "better" than the public school systems. How can it not be.

Allowing the proliferation of faith-based schools raises questions of perpetuation and in fact the intensifying of diversity/elitism/non-tolerance as time goes by. Is this really in the best interests of moving toward a tolerant, reasonably accommodating population?

I would urge ON'ians to get past the emotional and think long and hard about how your existing system can be adjusted/improved before moving on an election promise of implementing a faith-based pathway. Once this door is opened, you can kiss your public system, as you know it, farewell. Because other provinces have gone this route is no reason to think that ON is probably right/o.k. to do the same.

The estimate of $400M to get it going in ON is laughable. What will likely happen is that millions will come in from offshore and highly influential/financially placed locals and you will see instant schools go up in many, many different places.

There was an education-lobby female on CPAC the other day who feels it is just fine to have students educated in a language that is neither English nor French. Really. Once you open the door in ON, you will never close it nor will you be allowed to cherry pick what faiths will be allowed to set up their own school. They will all have this right and will go to the supreme court, if necessary, to get it done.

The socio-cultural aspects of Canada are considerably different now than they were in the mid '80's. If ON'ians feel they have a problem with political correctness now - and they should - the situation will likely be compounded many fold if full fledged faith-based education is opened up in ON.

"It seems this may well be the election question and it is huge."

I'll say this again slowly. Two point five billion dollars is a much bigger number than four hundred million. You reject mathematics by suggesting that the McGuinty health tax is a bigger issue than a theoretical program which costs much less.

The people who don't have a problem with McGuinty's $2.5 billion health tax? They don't make very much money and don't pay much tax if any. Freeloaders, in other words.

JSchuler: the man believes in secularism because that's what he believes in.

It would be a deeply cynical act to sit back and think about which belief system would act as the best vector for your particular idea, then choose that. It would accepting the "religion as the opiate of the masses" theory for the purpose of exploiting it.

Andrew,

Clearly your reading comprehension skills were learned at an Ontario public school.

No one has suggested a preference for McShifty's health tax. That someone thinks that funding religious schools is a bigger issue than the health tax is not the same thing as suggesting it is exclusively a mathematical equation. It is not.

Clearly you are gullible.

$400 million for Tory's Maddrassa plan is not honest. It will cost much more.

Clearly you have logical deficiencies.

These two issues are not related except insofar as they are two cardinal screw-ups by two terrible leaders - neither of which deserves to govern.

Most of the people on this board want lower taxes, less spending, less government interference, less bureaucracy, less meddling by government, less programs and more freedom. Funding Tory's Saudi Maddrasses is not on that agenda. Neither is McShifty's tax.

Your stupidity embarrasses real conservatives.

Well put, Warwick.

"No one has suggested a preference for McShifty's health tax. "

Oh yes you have. You just said you can't support John Tory. And since there is only 1 other man who could conceivably become premier (McGuinty) it logically follows that you are not opposed to re-electing McGuinty and his crew.

You're trapped. You painted yourself in a bright pink corner and there is no way out.

You're a Liberal. A dirty, dirty Liberal.

P.S. real conservatives *never* begin a sentence with "Clearly", that's a total tipoff you are a Paul Martin-wannabe Liberal.

Kate,

My appologies for feeding the troll.

Well Lori, you may not like Tory's idea on school funding but we're already funding one religion, that's not a fair deal either. We're way past the reason for funding it in the first place, we've evolved, different demographic. Now it's a social disgrace and an economic disaster.
Tory needs a rethink too, one system for all, leave the religions where they belong, in the places of worship and homes.

Go vote for Extreme Liar, a Liar beyond all liars, he broke every promise he made prior to the last election.

Andrew, John Tory is a 905 socialist who never saw a dollar he didn't think he should get 75 cents of. There's going to be damn little difference between him and McSquinty. I'll take that little difference, because every little bit helps.

But that John(Pink)Tory agenda is not what I want. I'd like to see a 20% cut in Ontario tax right up front and 10% every year thereafter until you can fit all of Queens Park's employees inside Queens Park again.

I'd also like to see the GTA and Hamilton Region broken back up into their constituent municipalities and de-funded at the federal and provincial level.

Nothing shrinks a tumor like cutting off the blood supply.

Lori, your gracious apology is accepted. You're not the only one that gets cranky and blurts the wrong thing by a long shot. ~:) I'm full time cranky, these days.

If this Christopher Hitchens clone cannot understand that some religions have better outcomes for their adherents than others, then he is not much better than an appeaser.

Christendom and its underlying values of love and tolerance has been the building block and a solid foundation for all Europe and North America.

Russia also has a strong religious tradition and its people still have a strong sense of introspection and moral compass which will undo the confusion of the marxist yoke.

I never have and never will believe the marxist fairy tales.

May the people of Saskatchewan rise up against it!

we sure beat the crap out of that. from islam to school funding to athiests, kkk, secular humanists, john tory, one post alluded to the fact that our thought, moral thought, that is ,stemmed from christanity. he or she, is right of course, you can't divorce your thoughts from what has been learned and accumulated throughout history.the rest was mostly politics as usual.

Glad you posted this Kate. Nice find.

I reckon all school funding is religious school funding.

What is current public school funding being used for other than inculcation into the religion of leftist secular humanism?

Are competitive theories taught to say, evolution? Or, multiculturalism? Or, cultural and moral relativism? Or, for that matter, socialism?

As I said before, as much as I don't like funding for Islam in any way, shape, or form - it might prove more secure that they abide by western education curriculum norms than what much of their current funding from Saudi Wahabiism demands.

On the other hand, if Muslim immigration was ended, I'm sure we wouldn't be having this debate.

A very timely post Kate, thanks and I would not have seen my fellow countryman on the subject otherwise. Sounds funny to say fellow countryman since I have Canadian citizenship and lived in Canada 51 years. Born foggy old London Town.
Orlin- from the UP.
I take the liberty of a quick sum up. What the man says is extremely well stated and in someone's face.
If we do not stick together we will hang apart. Should I say suffer under duress of clever manipulators. Persons who tell US to respect their version of religious rites. Sticking together? I mean USA and Canada.
Based in Sault Ste Marie, Ontario, I look across at Sault Ste Marie, Michigan every day. So far untouched by certain groups. A friend remarked that it is the winters. (Laughs).

@randall g at August 27, 2007 1:47 AM

"Richard Ball, you are wrong that there is no morality without religion."

I never said that. I said that morality has no objective existence if there is no God -- it is merely a human artifact. There can be morality without religion, but their cannot be morality without God. The fact that morality exists points to God's existence and makes it logical to believe that He does exist, and irrational to believe He doesn't.

If the universe, including humans, is uncreated, undesigned, and unintended, then any moral strictures we may invent are merely that - human inventions; they have no objective existence apart from us, and, since we are undesigned and unintended, we would have no logical reason for believing that they have any objective validity.

"You yourself have admitted that without your faith you would consider your fellow humans no better than pond scum."

I said no such thing. I said that logically a materialistic atheist's view must be that we are no more important or valuable, and have no more rights than, rocks or pond scum.

The fact that I do consider human beings more important and valuable than pond scum, as I assume you do as well, points to an a priori conviction that we are important and have intrinsic value -- a belief that is only rational if we were are in fact the products of intentional design. It is atheists who at the same time posit human worth, dignity, and rights who are being irrational.

"Christianity... has, in modern times, come to accept the value of reason and science."

Wrong again, randall. Christianity has believed in reason and science from "day one". In fact, it was Christian belief that the universe was designed and regulated that gave birth to western science.

Andrew, John Tory is a 905 socialist who never saw a dollar he didn't think he should get 75 cents of. There's going to be damn little difference between him and McSquinty. I'll take that little difference, because every little bit helps.

But that John(Pink)Tory agenda is not what I want. I'd like to see a 20% cut in Ontario tax right up front and 10% every year thereafter until you can fit all of Queens Park's employees inside Queens Park again.

I'd also like to see the GTA and Hamilton Region broken back up into their constituent municipalities and de-funded at the federal and provincial level.

Nothing shrinks a tumor like cutting off the blood supply.

Posted by: The Phantom at August 27, 2007 2:39 PM

Sounds like you and I are cut from the same cloth, at least region-wise. Personally I rue the day Harris left and gave lesser minions government over us. He should have stayed the course and finished the job. More's the pity.
I agree, Tory is the lesser of the two evils, if even marginally so. McGuinty has shown himself to be a liar and, as such, should never be allowed the privilege of serving in government again.
I don't suffer fools, or liars.

"I agree, Tory is the lesser of the two evils"

But you decide hassle the one person in the thread who actually supports him? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Why not hold a Liberal to account over the 2.5 billion they are scamming you instead of hassling a fellow conservative over etiquette?

One drawback of being a Canadian conservative is the legions of backstabbers so prevalent in our ranks. There's nothing a Canadian conservative loves more than a good backstabbin'. It's always been that way. There's even a name for it, The Tory Disease. So it goes.

Richard Ball

Can't agree with you more when you speak of intrinsic value of mankind. What indeed sets Christianity apart from Muslim is that the value of mankind is (was?) determined by God when God Himself gave mankind the ultimate worth of the life of God the Son. Islam also seeks the divine approval but seeks to do it through the work of man earning the favour of God. Therefore the universal worth of Mankind that is found in Christianity is not found in Islam. Islam like the Atheists believe that what ever they believe is most important thing even though it changes from second to second and individual to individual.

Christianity has a constant morality even though many Christians do not follow it; whilst the other religions have a shifting morality that changes to suit the whims of the individual practitioner.

I am a conservative in Ontario and I don't think I will vote for Tory. There are usually independants that you can vote for. Your vote is never wasted regardless of whether or not your party of choice stands a chance.

I am not sure how I feel about school funding but I think a lot of the people who are talking about this don't remember the past.

When I went to school "public school" meant protestant school. What we really had were catholic and protestant schools. We had daily prayer and religious instruction in my public school.

My oldest son starts school in a few weeks and he will be going to a public school, partly due to geographic convenience. We did consider sending him to a catholic school, even though we are not catholics. I would rather that than a secular school. I am looking forward to deprogramming my children of all th crap I know hey will have foisted on them in a public school.

I half think we should privatize all schools and give parents vouchers and let them choose their own schools. It could hardly be worse than the situation as it is now.

"It's one thing to sound off about "all religions are bad," but it is entirely disingenuous not to mention the atrocities underpinned by atheism that have scourged mankind, even in recent history."

Marxism of that stripe is a religion, that just doesn't happen to include a god or a heaven in the conventional sense. But it's got it's revolutionary vanguard and worker's paradise. It's hard on examination to see it as anything other than a highly intolerant monotheism which is why it doesn't tolerate other religions.

"Christianity has a constant morality even though many Christians do not follow it"

Well that "constant morality" you refer to seems to have been changing all the time and for quite some time in fact. I'd modify that to "consistently lagged behind" instead.

No Jose Cristianity does have a constant morallity. That morality is simply this: Each individual is worth the life of Christ. From that bedrock all morality flows. That you seem to see changes reminds me of what a famous Christian apoligist once described Christianity as being, Christianity is like a rider of a horse that appears to be about to fall off one side of the horse or the other at any given moment. However when the rider never falls you finally realize that he is the consumate horse rider.

One lives and learns.

Taking the advice of other posters, I simply hit GOOGLE. I put in Pat Condell. It came up right away- his website. Oh yes, a hard nosed iconoclast. He would have to be, to tee off on the redoubtable Islamic factions existing in Western society.

He does have a guest book. The only thing lacking is just how does he earn a living. That might tell me something. I know he had better watch his back, in my native country,England.

His best defence, is his attack on the Christian religion. It has put up with far worse.

Joe "No Jose Cristianity does have a constant morallity. That morality is simply this: Each individual is worth the life of Christ."

That's a lofty and commendable ideal, perhaps you should remind the Christians of that.

Jose I do every Sunday when I preach in Church. When is the last time you came to listen?