Well. Mark has managed to move the Rockies! Wow. Except for this small error, the fact remains...why did they have to go that far to start with? I thought we had universal,socialized health care,available "free" to all Canucks. Oh wait. Didn't Ralphie-poo blow-up a hospital in Calgary? I hope the Friends(?) of Medicare are made to foot the bill for this.

My wife is an RN. Does not surprise me at all. Librano morons have totally screwed our health care system. Yet, if anybody even mentions some private health care, it is the moral equivalent to resurrecting the third reich(in the eyes of librano idiots). Just wait, in a few years when the dope ingesting yuppies start getting ill, and the nurses start retiring in droves. The librano idiots will not be able to stop private health care at that point. Good luck emptying your parents bedpans, folks.

No doubt Michael Moore will be all over this episode ;)

good thing Canadian socialists closed all those med school spaces in the 90's to deal with our glut of doctors.

Canadian health care: waits to deliver your baby but no waits to abort it.

Yeah, I noticed the Rockies transplantation as well - though Calgary is close enough to the Rockies that flying in is often a roller-coaster experience. But the underlying point remains valid, nonetheless.

Weird, I just posted the same quote. Ah well.

I'm going to say something unpopular across all political groups ... We really don't have a problem with health care we have a problem with health in general.

The majority of our health care spending is wasted on treating preventable conditions and we will not have speedy access to high quality health care until we fix this problem.

Don't see what the big deal is? Aren't those babies American citizens now?

Sorry, I feel must fix this comment:

The majority of our health care spending is wasted on needless bureaucracy/politics and we will not have speedy access to high quality health care until we fix this problem.

There, that's better. I do understand and agree with you about preventative care but it's only half the equation.

Good point, Dan. From the Canadian health-care system, what a gift - American citizenship!

I bet you wish Ralph hadn't blown up that hospital now, eh?

Yeah, so lets fix it by putting more money into the system. This means a bit more in taxes, and the second you're sick you'll be happy you paid it.

Americans pay way, way, way more, despite the fact that 40 million of them are without insurance. We could pay a bit more, and fix most of our problems without crippling sick people with retarded medical bills.

You guys are such outrageous suckers thinking that American for profit hospitals can pay medical professionals more, and still reap a profit without passing on these expenses to the user.

On that note... I have some property I'm selling in Florida. It's a little wet, but I swear it's a deal. If you don't believe me... you clearly don't support the troops.

The extremist fear mongers who cling to the outmoded Canadian "system" will even use this example to scare people about the evils of U.S. medical care, its costs and its "wasteful" facilities.

When is the last time you've seen a serious MSM comparison of all of those countries that have a mix of public and private care? No, it was decided that letting people queue and sometimes die rather than allowing supplementary private insurance like almost every other country in the world is a peculiarly Canadian "Value," and, most important, not "American style," to quote the NDP's beloved curse.

If the U.S. is at one extreme (and most of the reasons for the U.S. problems involve too much rather than too little government interference), Canada (along with its medical system soulmates North Korea and Cuba) is at the other.

John, I expect you've never worked at a responsible job in a real company in your life, nor have you studied economics. I can tell you that in my company, we are constantly striving to deliver a better product at less cost. There is no such incentive in a government agency, hence they cannot compete when people have a choice.

In a nut-shell, this is why the Soviet Union was a failure, and the United States remains the most successful country in the history of the world.

People, relax.

The truth of the matter is there is a huge economic boom going on in Alberta.

Not only are 50,000 people a year moving into the province I've spent all but three years of my life in, but there's another factor.

When economic times are good, birth rates increase.

There's a shortage of maternity ward beds all across Alberta, the economic engine of Canada.

All I can tell you is this economic boom beats living on welfare, like my single mom had to do for 10 years after my dad left us. Thankfully, she raised two well-adjusted children who appreciate the gifts we are now receiving.

And, Alberta's baby boom will continue for at least another two decades.

I love this place. It's exciting. It's vibrant and it has a free-enterprise government.

Don't all move here at once from the People's Republic of Saskatchewan at once, you hear.

The quality of health care in Canada has been a topic of discussion for years and years. In all that time, I have rarely heard any pro change person recommend the US model. US-style health care is almost exclusively brought up by the anti change forces as the only other possible system.

There is a whole world out there beyond NA. Most of Europe and a few Asian countries have better ranked systems than either the US or Canada. Wouldn't it make sense to look at them to see what works and what doesn't? Then allow provinces to experiment based on those models.

Canada has some real challenges with labour shortages, rationing care, increasing cost and a large aging population. It would be sensible to have a plan beyond just throwing more money at it. Eventually, taxpayers can not afford to give governments any more money.

Americans pay way, way, way more, despite the fact that 40 million of them are without insurance.

Who pays more is debatable.

The American uninsured encompasses a lot of slackers that refuse to pay for health insurance especially with the 20-30 something crowd. It's a personal responsibility issue. The price for a simple catastrophic policy isn't that expensive for that age group. They'd rather buy iphones and stuff with their discretionary incomes. It is often a transient situation when job switching people are put in the uninsured numbers.

No one is denied care. If you are poor you get Medicaid or indigent funding. An illegal alien here would have received the same quality care as the mother in that story.

We get a better quality medicine in return as this Canadian has written in this issue of City Journal:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

John, you don't work in health care. I can tell, because if you did, or even knew anybody who was sick, you wouldn't say stuff like that.

Don't you have a bridge to be under?

Do I smell a troll or did I step in some dog shit?

Let's recap, like one of my most hated managers used to say: we have no sizable military (come on, those few is not what a country size of Europe should commit), no real border protection, no network of highways and railways to support, while collecting some highest taxes. No real healthcare as we just saw. Where do the bloody money go?

Mother and babies were on CNN. Things could be worse for the family. She could have been sent to NYC, where the city council has banned baby bottles, by 2020, and banned baby formula from gift baskets immediately.

"In a nut-shell, this is why the Soviet Union was a failure, and the United States remains the most successful country in the history of the world."

Interesting, but the United States is ripping itself apart. You may want to read this article in the notoriously lefty rag, The Financial Times:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/80fa0a2c-49ef-11dc-9ffe-0000779fd2ac.html

As for private companies being efficient. Bullshit. They're paying execs waaaaaay more than they're worth, and in the States, this is why so many people can't afford insurance.

You've been suckered by the lobbyists who are desperately trying to get at your wallet. This is why they pay the hacks at the Fraser to feed you this bullshit.

From Wikipedia's entry comparing both systems. Please note that the figures below come from the WHO.

"Health care is one of the most expensive items of both nations’ budgets. The U.S. government spends more per capita on health care than the government does in Canada. In 2004, the government of Canada spent $2,120 (in US dollars) per person on health care, while the United States government spent $2,724.[5]

However, U.S. government spending covers less than half of all health care costs. Private spending for health care is also far greater in the U.S. than in Canada. In Canada, an average of $917 was spent annually by individuals or private insurance companies for health care, including dental, eye care, and drugs. In the U.S., this number is $3,372.[5] In 2004, health care consumed 15.4% of U.S. annual GDP. In Canada, only 9.8% of GDP was spent on health care.[5]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared

I worked at the largest NICU in Calgary for
fifteen years.

Everyone of those years improvements were made
for the babies. Bigger NICU, more room made at
the hospitals that take the babies when they are
no longer critical.

We have had a growth problem in Calgary and it
is putting a strain on every aspect of this
city.

Hospitals have been sending mothers and babies
to other hospitals for a long time, the opposite
can happen as well, the Calgary NICU will take
babies from Edmonton, Vancouver and Saskatoon
when they are filled.. It is not always easy to know when babies will decide to be born.

Our health care is a mess, I do not deny that
in any way, but the babies get all they need,
believe me. They are treated and cared about
by nurses and doctors who care and have special
training.

Yes, they have to move them sometimes and that
is terrible, but who can predict how many babies
we will get in a month, trust me, we have tried as
it would certainly make life easier for everyone.

It is the adults who having many needs that are
not met. I love the blaming the patient bit, like
seniors can stop getting arthitis, heart problems,
hip problems, come on, they are no different than
people in the past.

The liberals and the premiers of the provinces
did not look ahead and see the fact the nurses
will be retiring, the doctors would leave for
the states for better money and being able to
give better care, the cities would grow as
Calgary has, there are many reasons for the messs
we are in and I think people have taken the
good healthcare we had for granted. I think the
liberal thinking is the greatest cause as they
talk alot about helping the "people" but
rarely do so.

Maybe we will not take it for granted after we clean up the mess and that will take a very long timebecause the politicians in our country can't make up their mind and as we continue to fall apart, they moan and whine, but do NOTHING.

If one of the premiers had the courage to
stand up and do something, things could change,
but not until we get mad enough and Canadians
don't get mad, they get whiney.

John, like you or not, not all execs are thieves as you are trying to portray them, and it's their pay that makes American economy great. You just sound like an envious looser, sorry.

"John, you don't work in health care. I can tell, because if you did, or even knew anybody who was sick, you wouldn't say stuff like that."

Actually I have a sister who is a manager at an Ontario hospital. She hates it. Says the problems are chronic, but ultimately stem from underfunding.

BC on the other hand isn't all that bad in my experience. The birth of our son was easy as can be with our system, and even when he got very sick at 3 months, we had excellent care. We couldn't have wished for better help then we received.

If we lived in the States... we'd probably be screwed, or our son might be dead.

You are aware of the right? That American infant mortality rate is behind Cuba.

You guys might want to look into stuff like stats, and not just the vomit you so happily consume from so called "think-tanks".

Actually, since that hospital had been long since closed and was sitting derelict, I'm glad Ralph blew it up. Or should it have been left to sit until the vagrants burned it? These people who believe that derelict buildings can cure you are never clear on just how you take care of them.

People. Please stop using red herring arguments like there was no space because Calgary and Alberta are booming. This has zip to do with a boom in Alberta. Did you read the article?

Health officials said they checked every other neonatal intensive care unit in Canada but none had space.

Is there a boom in Halifax?

And the very fact that they checked hospitals further East than Saskatchewan shows how retarded our medical system is. If I was in their shoes and was told my wife was being flown to the East for care I'd say F-off! 1 hour to Montana or 5 hours to Toronto. Which makes more sense? That's a no brainer.

I'm happy I earn enough money to buy any health care I require from the USA if I can't get it in Canada. But I'm also sad that the retards opposing 2 tier healthcare are willing to let people like me send our dollars out of the country and inject them into the US system instead of spending our dollars in the Canadian system.

You're obviously gullible enough to believe the "vomit" coming from the Left-Wing Cuban Think Tank to believe that huge crock of shit.

"John, like you or not, not all execs are thieves as you are trying to portray them, and it's their pay that makes American economy great. You just sound like an envious looser, sorry."

The American economy is not "great". In case you've been napping, it's a mess, as we are now seeing.

Earnings for the middle class have stagnated while the CEOs take home more and more. They are laughing their asses off at suckers like you who they've tricked into doing the work for them.

Envious? Hardly. I wouldn't live in the States for any amount of money.

John, you're in the wrong place, you took a right hand turn at this site:

www.ibelieveallofMichaelMooresbullshit.com

you might want to try this one:

www.150milliondead?-letsgivecommunismonemorechance.com

you'll feel right at home there.

kingstontard, I noticed you never explained your inaccurate comment — calling someone else who was clearly right as a point of fact — a "tard".

Which served to demonstrate you were one. On this point.

What exactly don't you guys believe?

That millions of Americans are without insurance?

That Americans aren't ultimately paying more for care than Canadians once you calculate insurance payments, and taxes?

That the infant mortality rate is higher than Cuba's?

That the lifespan of the average American is dropping, and it probably has a lot to do with poor access to treatment?

What exactly?

Montana is the third poorest US state too!

Alberta's birth rate increased 15% in 2006.

That's much higher than the in-migration of economic refugees from other People's Republics across Canada.

"You guys are such outrageous suckers thinking that American for profit hospitals.."

Isn't that cute? John actually believes there's no profit made in the Canadian health care system. When in fact, it's the precise opposite - everyone in the system is guaranteed to profit.

Except the patient.

Kate:

Especially the union labour in the government monopoly system.

Cuba, North Korea, Canada.

The shining beacons of health-care models in the world.

It is somewhat eye-opening when leftists reveal what they consider to be "common sense."

In fact, letting troll types run off at the mouth does encourage them to tip their hand a little. In general, what a person considers "common-sensical" reveals his or her limits. Most people's base of common sense comes from themselves, their family, their friends, their neighbours, and from reading materials that they consider credible.

It's a pity that there are no industrial psychologists (that I know of) reading this thread, and the other ones on SDA with trolls in them. It would provide useful grist for one of those psychology tests used in industry.

The people who profit the most in the Canadian health care system are the legions of consultants and bureaucrats who are overpaid, and as useless as teats on a bull. They walk around our hospitals with clipboards in hand, making pie in the sky promises. The only constant is that they all golf in the summer and ski in the winter(on the taxpayer's dime). Other than that, my dog makes a bigger contribution to the system(me bad, I eat pork, wear pigskin, drink beer and own a dog.....oops - other post)

kingston**** is right... down with bloated administration.

Fine, kingstontard, you won't address your inaccurate comment. I guess it's not in you.

John, if everything is so hunky dorey in BC - then why was that Surrey BC woman airlifted to St. Joseph's hospital in Bellingham Washington to deliver her child a few months back. Umm because there were no beds available for her in BC???

Do you remember her? She was the one that complained bitterly about being dumped in Washington to have her baby??

BTW:
"They're paying execs waaaaaay more than they're worth, and in the States, this is why so many people can't afford insurance."
Really? Wow, how you've connected those dots is staggering.

1. I've worked on the health insurance side of the BC medicare system
2. I support private medicine
3. I acknowledge the government funded system has done some good — it saved my life and I'm sure it has saved the life of someone you know too
4. That doesn't mean it's better than the alternative; just not wholy bad
5. John makes some good points, particularly in regards to overall positive health outcomes in the United States and Canada
6. Life expectancy in the US is declining; this isn't a good thing
7. I disagree with John that the most likely explanation is lack of access to treatment: More Americans have health insurance now than ever, medical technology continues to advance by leaps and bounds, and the problem is elsewhere
8. Diet and exercise — I'm not the first person to point out many Americans and Canadians for that matter are fat, am I?
9. I'm sure there's much more to it than that

What I don't understand, sooz, is how you can use an example of one woman being airlifted to the US — when I worked in the BC health insurance system and can assure you we have reciprocal agreements and also treat US patients regularly — proves anything at all.

It's a sample size of one.

I think you would be better off cooly analyzing the strengths and weakness of, and the incredible pressures on, health systems all over the world.

No one has enough resources. How to allocate them is key.

And as Tommy Douglas, the man who Kate has this inexplicable vendetta against, acknowledged in his later years, we haven't been able to make central planning work.

Let me put it this way... even though I could probably afford to pay medical insurance better than most people... they'll have to pull universal from my cold dead hands before I let it go.

And while I respect Christoph's comments, I'm sorry, but the number of insured Americans is dropping wildly, because the price of insurance is going up, not down, and incomes are stagnating.

http://www.cbpp.org/8-29-06health.htm

Hence the reason medicare is becoming such a hot issue.

So John, if you and your wife were in this same predicament and the only option was to fly to the States, what would you do?
"I'm sorry Honey. But you know how I feel about the Evil Empire! Could you at least hang on till Bush is gone?"

I live in Montana. We are considered kind of an economic backwater compared to other states in the U.S. Despite this, the unemployment level in the Billings area near where I live is down near 2%. This beats the daylights out of any socialistic country I have read about (France, UK, etc). My job provides me with full health care, including dental, vision, and prescription drugs. Yesterday, my elderly father complained about stomach pain. I called our local clinic at about 9 am. They squeezed us in at 11:30 am. I doubt there is a health care system in the world that can beat this. Don't expect me to approve of turning our health care over to the government.

John, this was different than my impression, yet you could be right. I'm not an expert on this.

I'll say though, and it's just my opinion, that I think there are other more important factors related to longevity and that's lifestyle.

Specifically, we're altering our foods so profoundly, even replacing cane sugar with the much more deadly high-fructose corn syrup.

Anyway, thanks for bringing your viewpoints to the debate. I support increased private delivery of health services as countries that have a hybrid system seem to do better.

Yet... most countries do so that may be somewhat meaningless.

Ultimately, however, I believe it's immoral to tell a rich person (and I'm not one) they can spend $300,000 on a car, but will go to jail if they pay a doctor for a hip transplant to relieve their pain.

Or, to be pedantically fair, that the doctor would lose his ability to practice or whatever the actual consequences should be.

If people are free to spend their own money on trivial things, and they should be, then they should damn well be free to spend their money on serious things — like their own health.

Right now the only country that has a similar medical system as Canada's is N. Korea, Cuba has joined the revisionists and is allowing outsiders to pay for medical treatment. Every other country in the world allows people to pay for their own medical care if they so wish.

In BC there is a private system emerging which still hasn't gotten to the point of the Quebec private system, but it is making the lives of hundreds of people easier. Today I saw a patient who presented to my office 4 months ago in severe pain with his knee locked in partial flexion as a result of a buchethandle tear in his medial meniscus. I sent him to ER assuming that the orthopedic surgeon on call would take him into surgery that day, but he never did get to see an orthopedic surgeon. He was given an appointment to see the surgeon in TWO WEEKS time and that was just the initial office appointment. Who knows when the surgery would be. All that ER could offer him was iv morphine and sent him back to my office to get a narcotics prescription (I've gotten really good at treating pain with the long surgical waits that exist in Canada). My patient wasn't going to stand for this and so I called up a private MRI clinic and the Cambie surgical center. That afternoon he had an MRI of his knee done confirming my diagnosis and the next day he had arthroscopic surgery to fix his knee and was walking. He couldn't pay for this directly, his company paid for the surgery which is the way that people get around the assinine Canada health act. Total cost to him was $5K and today he told me he thought it was well worth the cost to not spend possibly a month in agony waiting for what is a very simple arthroscopic surgery. Not everyone wants to be stoned on opiates for long periods of time as it does make things like working a little difficult yet this is all Tommy Douglas's system is able to offer the average Canadian in this position. If, on the other hand, a serial pedophile developed this condition while in jail, he would be able to rapidly avail himself of the services of a private clinic at government expense. Injured workers also bypass the socialized medical system and get immediate diagnostic imaging and treatment at private clinics. All goes to show that hypocrisy is a fundamental Canadian value.

One of the factors screwing up Canadian healthcare is the presence of excessive union presence in hospitals. This results in a large number of overpaid and underproductive individuals who are totally resistent to any change. Private clinics are non-union and can rapidly reconfigure themselves to deal with changed circumstances.

The only advantage to the present medicare system is not having to bill the patient directly. Private medicine is already here and people are far more accepting now of paying for medical services if it means they can get access to them sooner. The present system assumes that the value of a persons time is 0. For any professional who is earning $100+/hour, even a weeks wait for a procedure represents a loss of income of at least $4000.

Cripes! I've said it before and I'll say it again: There are other developed countries besides the US to look for in examples of how to deliver health care. As a Canuck in the healthcare world down here, I have to say that people are not dying on the streets here as TC Douglas and the Friends of Medicare would have you think.

Panicy john is afraid that his universe will be gone and he will have to pay for health care. Wake up Lad, you are already paying premiums, directly in taxes or out of pocket like Alberta and now Ontario. A public/private system can be done. Just talk to an Aussie in the field. I have and I've been there. No holes in their safety net.

John, you shot yourself in the foot by quoting the very left-wing "Center on Budget and Policy Priorities". It is NOT a respected, bi-partisan outfit. Do you also believe the dishonest crap that Michael Moore’s puts in his crocumentaries?

loki - I had a similar, but less problematic event, too. It took me SIX WEEKS to see a specialist, and then another TWO MONTHS to get a minor operation on a finger. I am sure I would have more use of that finger had I not waited so long for the “free” health care.

@John:

"In 2004, the government of Canada spent $2,120 (in US dollars) per person on health care, while the United States government spent $2,724.[5]"

My numbers, from the Canadian Institute for Health Information, are CAN$3839 per person for 2003. See their report: "Health Care in Canada, 2004"

WHO is a suspect source, and Wikipedia is not an appropriate cite.

You know things are bad in a government-owned health care system when these kind of jokes make the rounds:

"Q: What's the only part of our health-care system that's completely private?

"A: Narcotics pushers."

"Q: Why did the government invent waiting-list databases?

"A: To give the morphine pushers a cold-call list."

These riddles were made up by me for example purposes. Things really ain't that bad in Canada, as far as I know.

Rush Limbaugh mentioned this today, and asks a question, Why didn't they go to Cuba, as cdns they would have no problem getting in. He also gives a slam to Sicko, by stating this is an example of the great cdn health care.

There's another angle to consider with the out of country birth of the quadruplets. Maybe there was the physical space but not the expertise available to deal with the tricky birth. Half the people on my floor are away on vacation and it took me a few weeks last summer to get in to see my own family doctor.

The mom and dad should be really happy that someone had the presence of mind to get them under the expert care of a good physician. Dr. Tom in Great Falls was available, able to recognize and follow through with the early emergency delivery needed to avoid serious consequences for the 4th baby.

I know from experience what happens in our beloved Canadian system when key caregivers happen to be away on vacation - people die. The lack of backup expert care during the summer in Canada is very scary and I think at times an understated crisis.

People like John can beat the drum for Canada's healthcare system all they like...but if they end up in the hospital on a Canada Day long weekend there's an ugly truth they may discover a bit too late.

Do I smell a troll or did I step in some dog sh#t?

...hey Chebodinik!

Calgary has the highest birthrate of any city in Canada. Add to that, interprovincial migration and nurses moving out in droves for more affordable housing, and you've got a major health care supply constraint. Infrastructure just hasn't caught up to the population boom, as migrants from Saskatchewan and BC don't bring their hospitals with them. Molehills into mountains - this says less about Health Care in Canada than it does about differences in capacity.

The birth of our son was easy as can be with our system, and even when he got very sick at 3 months....If we lived in the States... we'd probably be screwed, or our son might be dead.

Hey, John, what are you a paid shill for the Liberal party? You haven't supported the garbage you've spewed with a solid fact yet. Your link to the privately funded lefty Center on Budget and Policy organization with its Paul Krugman(the NYT's shill) and Thomas Oliphant(another lefty journ shill) endorsements is so transparent. I suggest you try harder at duping anyone.

Just suggesting that your kid could have been killed by the inferior US medical system reeks of an agenda, stupidity and total disingenuousness.

I'm calling your bluff on your stupid statements. I think you have an agenda. You lost all credibilty with the American healthcare as a threat to your son's life. I think to put it in stronger terms are a liar. Most likely you are a government employee hack somewhere in the Canadian healthcare system or working for the Liberal party. It doesn't matter, you are ignorable.

1. although the name kingstontard was bestowed upon me by a leftoid, it is obviously offensive to some, therefore I am going back to kingstonlad

2. in reference to Lougheed/Douglas, the conversation was that somehow Lougheed was involved in eugenics, which we all know is bulls@#$, as he ended the remnants of that program, whereas with commie douglas, well, the facts speak for themselves

Yeah kingstonturd, the facts speak for themselves: Douglas never initiated a eugenics program.

Aaron: "...this says less about Health Care in Canada than it does about differences in capacity."

Huh? As per previous comments - there wasn't any room in CANADA period. Nobody would take the case. Looks like there's a common lack of capacity across this great land of ours. I'd call that a direct and damning indictment of our collective healthcare system.

Our public healthcare system has been hijacked by nurses unions and other self-interested groups.
Any attempts at honest debate or suggestions for needed changes to this system are promptly squelched with rhetorical accusations of 'American-style' or 'private-for-profit'.

Ever wonder why there is never any real change or substantial improvement despite billions of additional funds regularly poured into this system by all governments?

Because protecting the inefficient status quo is in these groups' special interest.
As Kate previously highlighted,there are already plenty of people making an absolute 'killing' in our supposed 'not-for-profit' healthcare system.

Tenebris you missed the bit where I said that Canadians also paid 917 for insurance to top things up. This brings the total to over 3k, but that's still less than the 6K americans pay.

The fact is, that Americans are being crushed by crippling healthcare costs. People can attack Moore all they want, but that doesn't mean he's not right sometimes.

Bottom line... the US is not a model to emulate.

And me... I'm happy to pay more taxes if it means we can take care of everybody.

“Surely, the continued policy of allowing the subnormal family to bring into the world large
numbers of individuals to fill our jails and our mental institutions, and to live upon public charity, is
one of consummate folly.”
Tommy Douglas master’s thesis, 1932.

Ironic to say the least.

Hey everyone, I think John needs a group hug.
"And me... I'm happy to pay more taxes if it means we can take care of everybody." That sounds very noble of you but the fact is that throwing more money (your hard earned tax dollars) will not fix the problem.

Here is another thought for all to ponder: down here a patient is seen as a source of revenue while in Canada they are a cost. Down here in nasty US of A hospitals and care givers want patients to treat. Besides the revenue putting food on the table for the heathcare workers, the income allows them to get more or newer equipment, better facilities and such. Not so in Canada, more patients means the hospital has more costs and has to find more revenue from government as that is the only source of money.

I work in a not-for-profit facility here in Texas. That means that any monies not used in operating costs goes into research, better facilities, new equipment and such. Our patients can be politicians, famous types, wealthy sheiks, prisoners and indigent (homeless). They all get the same top notch care. Without boasting I can say that we have more MRIs on site than most provinces have in total. no real waiting lists here.

Oh yeah, referring back to the generosity to charities thread a while back, it is not a rare occurance to have people donate $$$ as in millions to their favourite hospital.

I would imagine the team of doctors and nurses needed for quads would be something to behold, something we are short of all over Canada.

I think we should have private health care for those who want it, and if public health care isn't able to take patients in a timely fashion, patients should be able to go to private health care clinics and have the public health care system pay.

The public health system is a socialist entity, hell bent on disregarding fiscal responsibility and on creating conditions where no one, who has or wants a life, wants to work.

During the last election I heard mention that the total annual cost of health care in Canada is about $142 billion. Divide that by, say, 30 million Canadians and you arrive at about $4,700 p.a. for every man, woman and child in the country, or $394 per month. That's a lot of money for health care. How does that compare with U.S. costs?

Communism at work in Canadian "health care."

Mealy mouthed Canadians keep trashing the American Health Care System, yet who do we have to turn to
when affluent Canadian communities don't provide essential lifesaving care?
Answer: The USA.
I suspect the private abortion clinics could have dispatched the foetus in a matter of minutes and for "free."
Free fast service to abort - no money for lifesaving service.
Go figure.

It's time to bring true competition into the healthcare industry while fostering some personal
/ private insurance system to alleviate the notion that care is "free."

"Don't see what the big deal is? Aren't those babies American citizens now?"

Dual citizens. Lucky them. They can play both sides of the border medical game as they get older.

Some comparisons of health care:

http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm

To make our hospitals efficient again we have to take them out of the public hands. That's the only way to end the drain and the bulging bureaucracies that we have demanded because of the “need” to monitor what is happening with the funds, waiting lists, etc.

The fastest and most cost effective way of achieving this is to turn these hospitals back over to the religious groups that used to run them. That’s right, the Salvation Army, the Nuns, etc. They’ll straighten out the finances and the unions and get rid of the deadwood very quickly. And their administrators won’t get paid the huge salaries thus lowering the expectation level for the unions.

From the Great Falls Tribune, including some cute pictures:

"Four of a kind: Rare identical quads grace Benefis"

http://tinyurl.com/2qppw8

So, please tell me where Alberta Blue Cross fits into health care, isn't it insurance for those that can afford it? If we do not have a two tier system why pay both Alberta Health Care Premiums and Alberta Blue Cross?

Also Alberta is attracting young people here, that means more babies, which I love, Alberta is booming with babies, not immigration sponsored families like Saskatchewan. My neighbour explained to me how immigrants are being fast tracked in Saskatchewan, don't know if it's true, but I do know that Alberta is having a baby boom, and I'm just glad that those 4 babies were well taken care of by qualified people.

Blue Cross covers procedures not on the AHC approved list.

I stayed in Great Falls one night. I remember I was looking for a room and it was tough due to 3 or 4 hospitals. All had helipads on the roofs.

They also had MRI's in semi-trailers and even though that was at least 12 years ago I could never understand why southeastern and southwestern parts of Sask. didn't contract them when there was so obvious a need and no clue how to fix it.

1. although the name kingstontard was bestowed upon me by a leftoid, it is obviously offensive to some, therefore I am going back to kingstonlad

2. in reference to Lougheed/Douglas, the conversation was that somehow Lougheed was involved in eugenics, which we all know is bulls@#$, as he ended the remnants of that program, whereas with commie douglas, well, the facts speak for themselves
Posted by: kingstontard at August 17, 2007 9:14 PM

What an absolutely dishonest deflection of responsibility for your inaccurate comment here.

You're forcing me into the unusual position of agreeing with leftist, Iberia, which has never happened before, but only because you are more moronic.

You said something provably false. It would be just as easy to say, "I was wrong about that," again, if you had it in you.

For every person who says, "let's just just pay a bit more and we'll have good health care" there are ten more working in the underground economy who expect to be taken care of when they or their kids are sick but who have no intention of paying for it themselves.

The left would have more credibility if they acknowledged that the underground economy's non-payment of taxes on the one hand and high-priced labour monopolies on the other are part of the reason why social services such as healthcare are in bad shape -- rather than suggesting that ever-increasing taxation is the answer to every problem.

Who ever heard of identical quads prior to global warming?

Richard Ball: "Who ever heard of identical quads prior to global warming?"

That's very funny!
Congrats to the quad family.

"Who ever heard of identical quads prior to global warming?"

Or prior to Bush?

How embarrassing. Canada is better than this.

From yesterday's Globe and Mail:

(take note that the guy who wrote this isn't some shlub in his basement, or some Fox News host who's only talent is having a big mouth)

...

I have been studying and writing about the consequences of commercialized medical care in the U.S. for many years. My conclusions, summarized in a recent book (A Second Opinion, Public Affairs), are that the high, rapidly rising cost of the U.S. health-care system, its failure to provide insurance coverage for about 15 per cent of U.S. citizens, and the uneven quality and limited accessibility of services it provides to so many more, can all be attributed in substantial degree to the fact that the U.S. has the most commercialized health-care system in the Western world.

This, despite the government's funding of more than half the total cost of U.S. health care, through the Medicare plan for the elderly, the Medicaid plan for the poor, and through many other public programs.

For-profit medical care in the U.S. has usually been found to be more expensive than not-for-profit care, when facilities providing similar types of services to similar patient populations have been carefully compared. Also, the quality of investor-owned services has often been inferior — never better — when compared with those provided in similar non-profit facilities. Physicians in our commercialized, profit-driven system tend to gravitate toward the highly paid specialties, so we now face a major shortage of primary-care doctors.

Financial incentives are also causing an increasing number of U.S. physicians to avoid Medicare and Medicaid patients in favour of those with private insurance, or patients who can pay out of pocket. Uninsured patients, and even many of those insured under public plans, now must wait to receive specialty services. Many poor patients never receive such services at all. Our hospital emergency rooms are increasingly flooded with patients who cannot find or afford care from private physicians. Waiting times for those with limited means are increased — certainly not eliminated — in our privatized health-care system.

If Canada were so unwise as to allow privatization to grow in its health-care system, it would sooner or later experience all of the problems driving the U.S. system toward collapse. One thing is certain: When medical care and health insurance are allowed to become private businesses, costs go up and patients with little or no resources do not get the care they need. That is the lesson Canadians should learn from the United States.

If they are to avoid exploitation by those who would like to make profits from publicly funded health care, Canadians should not follow Americans down the path to greater privatization.

Arnold S. Rahlman is a professor emeritus of medicine and of social medicine at Harvard Medical School, and is a former editor of The New England Journal of Medicine.

"down here a patient is seen as a source of revenue while in Canada they are a cost"

Gross. So what you are saying is that you take a person who is ill, and then ring the money out of them? This is in fact the case, because tens of thousands of Americans go bankrupt trying to pay medical bills.

This tears apart families, and weakens your social fabric. America is dying, because nobody gives a shit about anybody else anymore. You can think that giving dough to charity goes towards solving the problem, but clearly this couldn't be further from the truth.

"I work in a not-for-profit facility here in Texas. That means that any monies not used in operating costs goes into research, better facilities, new equipment and such. Our patients can be politicians, famous types, wealthy sheiks, prisoners and indigent (homeless). They all get the same top notch care."

Whoa there Santa Claus... sounds like the land of milk and honey. Clearly this is the exception, not the rule, or else facilities like yours would have all of the millions of uninsured beating a path to your door.

You can't honestly pretend that there are no waiting lists for the millions who are uninsured?

It turns out, my numbers were off. The US Chamber of Commerce (buncha lefties they are) quotes the census office that 45 million americans are uninsured.

"The Census Bureau's latest estimate reveals that the number and percentage of Americans without health insurance increased by 1.4 million from 43.6 million (15.2%) in 2002 to 45 million (15.6%) in 2003."

That's insane.

If only Alberta had a good economy, then they could afford to have good health care.

@John

My point was that your quoted number was inaccurate and your sources suspect. Your combined number of $6096 per person for total US spending appears roughly accurate (cite: California Health Care Foundation).

I am not disputing the apparent cost of the US system, just the exaggeration in some numbers. I will also point out that category costs need much more careful benchmarking than is done.

However, we will grant the obvious that US health costs are also higher than Canadian one. This was NOT the point of the post, which was service. The US health system is demonstrably better than the Canadian one.

As for affordability: average monthly insurance premiums for a family are $830. This is offset by the much lower US tax rate.

You are objecting to taking personal responsibility. Others here are objecting to the denial of health services. I leave you to decide which is the morally defensible position.

Just a quick comment to explain the obvious...

Those who blindly worship at the alter of universality and state control believe two things about people in general: that they are inherently good, and that they are incompetent.

Folks, there already is a two-tier system within the current one-tier public health system in Canada. If you are wealthy, are employed in the health care system or are friends with / related to someone in the health care system, you get (at least) much faster service and often access to the better specialists.

I am married to a health care worker...I am able to get faster service and access to better specialists. Professional sports teams get MRI's with only a few hours notice (because they pay) and the wealthy who donate to hospitals jump the queue to health care at the hospital they support with their charity...we've seen it first-hand.

Unions (including doctors, nurses, cleaners, etc.) are sucking the lifeblood out of the health care system...its time to bust the unions and permit private-for-profit health care in Canada. They would still be reimbursed by tax dollars to an amount not exceeding what OHIP (in Ontario, of course) pays public hospitals (like the Shouldice Clinic that Taliban Jack Layton made use of)...and when that happens, compare the level of administration between the private and public systems. The private hospitals will cut the deadwood administrators / managers and contract out the janitorial and other positions...leaving more money for nurses, doctors and equipment.

After the SARS crisis here in Ontario, the front-line health care workers were NOT rewarded for their efforts...but the administrative staff received $1000 bonuses for their hard work!

BUST THE UNIONS!

Oops, I should have added to my third-last paragraph "...leaving more money for nurses, doctors and equipment AND A PROFIT TO BOOT!"

All that research and developement taking place in the U.S., that Canada rides on the back of, costs a lot.

Canada's socialist system couldn't afford the strain of developing it's own knowledge and technology. Just as the USSR had to steal technology from the US because the USSR's backward socialism couldn't develope their own.

The forty million without insurance actually is forty million who are uninsured at some time during the year. That means if you change jobs and are uninsured for a few days, you get counted in this stat.
Same way that 'fifty percent of personal bankruptcies are because of medical bills' actually means fifty percent of personal bankruptcies have medical bills of over $1000.00.
They might have gambling debts and a coke habit or have had any number of reasons to declare bankruptcies, but if they have a medical bill of over $1000.00, it's lumped in with the scaremongering stats.

Speaking of two tier healthcare, what do we call the health benefit portion of our federal unionised workers contracts?

I can't wait for the day when all the hard core lefties get old and in need of specialized medical treatments. will the likes of Romanow, Calvert, Brodbent, Layton, Byers, Hubich, and on and on get in the line up like good little socialists and wait their turn. I hope the pain of months and months of waiting isn't too much to bear. or will these fine well to do socialists use their money to jump the cue and head south for faster service.

government isn't it great/

how does in excess of 40% of provincial gdp calculate out per person in ont? our heath care costa exceed that.

America is dying, because nobody gives a shit about anybody else anymore.

Spare us the hyperbole. Americans give more to charity than any other people on the face of the earth. Google it. And, grow up, healthcare is a commodity like any other service, someone pays for it whether it be through across the board incomes taxes, charitable funds out of someone's earned income, or privately.

You can't honestly pretend that there are no waiting lists for the millions who are uninsured?

Waiting lists for what? Enter an ER as uninsured there is no waiting list, you will not be discharged without a follow-up plan if indicated, the appointment to the appropriate f/u place is often made there or you make the phone call and get an appointment. Enter the system as uninsured sans the ER, you are evaluated, then, given an appointment. How do I know, I managed for years an o/p psych clinic where many of my clients had no insurance. Wait time, about the same as the private clinics in the city.

Hey, John, how about listing for all of us the fabulous innovative, life enhancing medications, medical devices, surgical procedures that have come out of socialized medical systems in the past 30 years? Anywhere?

If my kid was born with a very complicated heart defect or rare genetic disorder, I know what country I'd be seeking care in. Oh, and, John, most likely those selfish American that don't give "a shit about anybody else" would figure out a way for me to get access and finance the care, most likely doing what they do when financial means are an issue, eat the cost.

John said:"Gross. So what you are saying is that you take a person who is ill, and then ring the money out of them?"
Well, that is what I'd expect for a FoM type. Trying to make it sound like people are bleeding trying to write a cheque before being treated. Truth is that the medical facility bills the insurance company or the government if the patient cannot pay. Emergencies are taken care of while general hospitalization needs are met by public hospitals.

There is nothing wrong with paying for a service if you can, Canadians do it all the time with their dentist. There you are allowed to buy an insurance plan so why not medicine? I pay a co-pay fee when I see the doctor but then again spending $25.00 to see a doc sort of prevents most from going to see the doctor with every sniffle they catch. Gee, something like what they had, for a brief time, in Alberta way back when.

Nobody ever said that the US system was perfect but as I said before, the American system isn't all as evil as it is made out to be and there are other countries that have something better than Cuba & Canada.

My recent eloquent post was blocked or disappeared into limbo so I'll just provide this link and point out that these are the sorts of comparisons Canadians should be making, rather than falling for that old U.S. as bogeyman straw-man argument seen yet again in this thread:

http://www.nchc.org/facts/world.shtml

Is there perhaps a reason why no countries (other than a fringe in the U.S.) are mounting movements to emulate the private-insurance-outlawed system shared by Canada, North Korea, and Cuba?

A riposte from Mark Steyn to critics of his original comments: http://tinyurl.com/2s3lr5

Mortality rates are NOT calculated the same in all countries. The EEEVIIL USA counts early neonate births as live births; furthermore, should the child die with a few days, they count that as a death. Other countries do not count like this; they not count the neonate births until the child is determined to have a good chance to live. In theses countries, a neonate that dies within a few days is counted as a still birth (not a live birth). In these countries, the mortality rate is not affected by neonate deaths. In the EEVIIL USA, the mortality rate is affected (it is reduced significantly). Furthermore, the EEVIIL USA tries heroically to save neonates that would be discarded in other countries.

I am sure a “shlub in his basement” like John would have trouble understanding the above, but then his “only talent is having a big mouth”, not appreciating the details of health care systems. Anyone who thinks Canada has a good health care system is an uninformed fool. Period. Or they are sucking at the teat. They, or a relative, are most likely in a union , the NDP, or the Liebral party, and simply trying to rationalize their obscene privilege, and disgustingly over paid and unearned income.

"If only Alberta had a good economy, then they could afford to have good health care."

Posted by: lberia

Bwhahahahaha! You'd think!

"I hope the pain of months and months of waiting isn't too much to bear. or will these fine well to do socialists use their money to jump the cue and head south for faster service."

Posted by: dj

They already do head south - socialism is for others, not for socialists.

from Karl Rove talking to Rush this week: (for John)

"Senator Clinton voted against allowing people to save tax-free for their out-of-pocket medical expenses. Senator Clinton opposes giving every American a standard health deduction so that they can deduct from the cost of their income taxes, their insurance premiums.
You know, when we started as a country to say, "You know what? You can deduct your mortgage interest off of your income taxes," there was an explosion of home ownership in the country, which was a good thing. When we started saying to people, "You can save tax-free for your kids' college expenses or save tax-free for your retirement expenses," we saw an explosion of 529 Plans for college education, and 401(k)s and IRAs for people's retirement. That was a good thing. Yet Senator Clinton, who deems to lecture this president on health care, opposed allowing people to do either save tax-free for their out-of-pocket medical expenses, or, she also opposed -- she also opposes -- allowing there to be a tax deduction for people to take off their income tax costs of their insurance premiums. She's against having a level playing field so that the guy who has to pay for health care for his family or her family out of their own pocket, gets the same tax break the big corporations get for providing health insurance to their employees. She's against allowing people to buy health insurance across state lines like we routinely buy auto insurance today so you can shop for the cheapest price and the best product for your family's needs."

Not only has John never worked in healthcare, he doesn't even know any Americans.

$6000+ per person for insurance John? Not even for a family of four. Not even for the gold-plated Cadillac program.

No care for the un-insured? That's a good one! You show up at emerg, you get taken care of, gratis. Or you own the hospital, because the lawsuit will ruin them.

Go lie to some gullible Lefty John. You're a despicable troll.

also for John

Many Americans, especially the self-employed and those who tend to be in general good health, choose not to purchase insurance and instead pay cash anytime they visit the doctor. Health savings accounts (HSAs) enable individuals to save tax free for their own health care needs. 2003 Census Bureau shows the total number of Americans with health care insurance rose to a record 243.3 million in 2003. It also shows 45 million without health care insurance. as a percentage, this number is 15.6% lower than it was in 1997-98

One third of those who are unininsured are eligible for Medicaid and the State Children's Health insurance program, but are not enrolled - more that 14 million americans who are eligible for insurance can apply when they require it.

according to the 200e Census Data, almost 15 million uninsured people live in households with incomes above $50,000 - 7.6 million of them in households over $75,000 - it is reasonable to assume those individuals with these incomes can afford to purchase the health care which best fits their needs.

18.8 million uninsured are between 18 and 34 and forgo coverage becasue many states offer guarantteed issue laws which enable individuals to put off purchasing insurance until they get sick and need it.

Also every American (and illegal immigrant) has access to health care at any emergency room in America.

(from "Conservative Comebacks to Liberal Lies" 2006-2007 edition

One of the aspects of having "free" medical care in Canada is that it makes many people think much less of it than "alternative" medicine that they pay for. I've had people complain bitterly about having to pay me $15 for doing a form whereas in the same visit they will mention the $500 they paid to their naturopath for what is at best an expensive placebo. When people pay for something, they percieve it as being more valuable than something they get for free. The "alternative" medicine system is totally unregulated and I've seen naturopaths siphon off as much as $50K from desperate cancer patients who go to them in the last few months of their lives.

I've had a few patients recently go to the Mayo clinic for second opinions and in none of these cases has the Mayo clinic come up with anything that I've missed. One patient of mine had been diagnosed by me with fibromyalgia and depression; a diagnosis she wasn't happy with. When she returned from her very expensive trip to the Mayo clinic she seemed in much better spirits and told me "the Mayo clinicic told me I have fibromyalgia and depression"; I wish I could have charged her only $10K to tell her this.

Under a socialist system all doctors are considered to be equivalent and are paid the same. Everyone soon gets to know who the good doctors are and they get sent the most challenging cases. I've talked to a few specialists who finally got fed up with this system and left the country as, while the intellectual stimulation is nice, it really pisses people off to see ones less competent colleagues billing more than they do from the easy cases that are entrusted to them. In the area of general practice, walkin clinics are far inferior to the care one gets from a full service GP practice, but walkin doctors often earn twice as much as full service GP's dealing with what are often trivial problems. The only government solution to the coming shortage of full service GP's is to add in yet more paperwork to compensate full service GP's.

The Canadian system is totally broken and it would be nice to make some changes before it completely collapses, but I suspect that we'll see a total meltdown at some point in the future and hopefully a free enterprise government will be in power and finally abort Tommy Douglas's progeny.

Loki, I fully expect a nursing strike to be the wooden stake that finally kills this vampire.

Doctors put up with a hell of a lot, but nurses put up with way more. As a professional group nurses are getting older, fewer,their real wages are declining and they are burning out.

Duhlton McSquinty's big bold funding boost to Ontario hospitals has been eaten by the secretaries and factotums every hospital seems to have hundreds of. The bureaucracy soaked it up and didn't even burp. Pretty much none of it got out the the front lines to hire more nurses, more CLEANERS (anybody been to a hospital lately? Eeew!), more radiologists etc.

And you LEFTIES might want to perk up a bit at this, pre-Trudeau none of this all engulfing bureaucracy existed and people got their care just the same. Probably better.

If they fired every SOB in every hospital that didn't have MD or RN in their name I doubt any patient would notice.

Well, loki, hopefully the new president of the CMA will be able to bring some sense to the clearly broken system. It might be a start, if we are lucky. But, it may well take some disaster to impact it meaningfully. But, some privatization is much better than no privatization, except for the union thugs who may not be able to dictate wages and benefits.

I don’t recall the details, but awhile ago the health union thugs were able to end the contracting out of hospital security in some BC (or Vancouver) hospitals. The new security “services” were, of course, unionized. The annual cost per hospital was massively more than when done by contractors. And, surprise, surprise, the level of security fell. Typical unionism…

terrence is correct about accounting for neonatal mortality, but there's another aspect to the United States's lower life expectancy and higher costs.

We have, for all practical purposes, no control over our borders, and as a result are getting 5+ million immigrants a year; the best guesses so far are that we already have something like 25-30 million illegals in country, and more come every day. And since, unlike Canada, that's uncontrolled immigration, the vast majority of the new folks come from places where medical care is abysmal to nonexistent, are from demographics that had little or no access to health care in their home countries, or both. That skews the statistics in fairly horrific ways. When one of the immigrants dies of some disease picked up elsewhere, or a baby dies because its mother wasn't healthy when she got here, it is no more and no less than one person added to the mortality statistics -- we don't distinguish when collecting such numbers.

The other thing is that it drives up costs. As Texas Canuck points out, Federal and State laws plus common-law liability add up to making it impossible for an ER or other medical facility to deny care -- but somebody pays: the equipment and medicine that get used up, the salaries of the caregivers, and all the other costs don't stop because the patient is indigent. Who pays? Answer: those who can -- those who have insurance or can pay out of pocket. Health care providers jack up the charges to non-indigents in order to gain enough revenue to cover their total costs. Federal and State reimbursement from tax receipts fill in the gaps, but don't come close to covering the costs of treating indigents, as hospital after hospital along the border is discovering as their paying clients (insurance or out of pocket) disappear and are replaced by immigrants who cannot pay.

Canada has much tighter border control, and by and large admits immigrants only from the upper levels of society, levels where health care was adequate or at least not hopeless in the immigrants' home countries. As a result, Canada isn't seeing deaths from stupid stuff that's been eradicated or minimized in the developed world. If you had half a million people, largely illiterate peasants who have never seen decent health care before, descending on you every year, your system wouldn't look as nice as it does.

That all sounds like I'm anti-immigration. I'm not -- for one thing, it's a Hell of a compliment that people want to come here; for another, our economy is big and robust enough to absorb them while keeping unemployment near nil, at a relatively modest cost in lower pay for unskilled and semi-skilled workers; and, in the long term, they'll become productive and grow our economy even more. But they do have a negative impact on our health care system, and lying about that won't help them or the natives.

Regards,
Ric

Man... I feel like I'm talking to my refrigerator.

"$6000+ per person for insurance John? Not even for a family of four. Not even for the gold-plated Cadillac program."

If you'd bothered to pay attention, you'd know that I wasn't talking about insurance. I'm talking about the cost of delivering medical care to the average American. The cost... as I do more research is in fact $6,700 per person, or 2 Trillion per year for the nation.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

Some of this cost is borne by the insurance company, but much is borne by the taxpayer. That's my point re the uninsured... how is it that you think those costs are covered?

Do I need to speak. more. slowly?

Incidentally... take a look at this Globe article. It's the story of your future:

"Ms. Barron, who is on dialysis, used her home as collateral for a $50,000 (U.S.) loan to pay for mounting medical bills. The initial interest rate was enticingly low. But typical of many subprime loans, the payments shot up after the second year and again this year. Monthly payments of $518 (U.S.) now consume half her meagre fixed income. Unable to pay her taxes, she recently filed for personal bankruptcy. Desperate to renegotiate the loan, she wonders how long she'll be able to keep her home, the value of which sinks ever lower."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070818.wsubprime18/BNStory/International/home

Americans wish they had what we have. That's why they're starting to fight it, and why the Republicans are going to be hiding under a rock come 2008.

I just checked and somewhat to my surprise it was a guy named Antonio and not John who wrote the "One Note Samba."

Apologists for the current coercive system should be intellectually brave enough to compare it to other similar systems rather than simply indulge in Amerika Bashing:

http://www.nchc.org/facts/world.shtml

Time to refer to Kate's advice about troll-feeding...

Troll.

Why am I not shocked that you guys would rather scream "troll" than actually try and counter my facts with... well I don't know... more bullshit I guess. Ah well.

Man oh man... it must be tough being a rightwinger these days when you keep having your ass kicked by reality.

Well... I've wasted too much of my time with you guys already. Have fun waking up to the fact that everything you believe is wrong.

John, John, John, if you stop coming here and making a fool of yourself, whom will we laugh at?

Show some compassion, John, stay around and continue to give us a laugh now and then (such as whenever you talk about "facts" and when you fantasize about what Americans want).

But, then, your refrigerator is probably on your intellectual level; so why don’t you go hang out with it. I am sure you will find it time well spent!

John:

Welcome to the Conservative blogosphere, where overwhelming facts are countered by cries of "troll" or "socialist."

Overwhelming facts? Like bulk water exports? What a laugh.

Americans wish they had what we have.

I'm one. I don't want what you have. We are how many decades past socialized medicine in Canada and still we Americans aren't buying into it, think again before you speak for me.

I don't want your damn Canadian taxes or government's micro-managing of my life. I'm perfectly happy to have more discretionary money after taxes - I spend and respect my money more wisely than any politician ever will. I also like choices in healthcare, so do my neighbors and friends. I have more discretionary money to fund charities to extend those services to the less fortunate. They aren't denied healthcare either here. Autonomy and self-reliance, the majority of Americans still cherish. Western Canadians also. It's pretty apparent that a portion of Canada aren't in love with the Nanny State's opression.

John, you are a pompous ass, got to say it, it seems that most Americans and the Canadians posting here aren't getting your pearls of wisdom. I'll leave you to dialogue with your refrigerator. I'm sorry for Canadians that suffer you. Thankfully our "Johns" have been a minority here.

Well... I've wasted too much of my time with you guys already.

As we say south of Canada, don't let the door slam you ass on the way out.

lberia - have you been talking to John's refrigerator? You seem to be about as intelligent as one; you would probably get along well with John. You could discuss "facts" with John and his refrigerator, and have a grand old time; and you could talk about what Americans want, and have a grand old time. All three of you agreeing on the “facts” and what Americans want, and having a grand old time.

lberia: "... Welcome to the Conservative blogosphere ..."

Unlike for our broken health system, you do have a choice on the Internet. There are several sites out there that share your beliefs ... maybe there you can get the labels you crave.

Ural:

I come here when I need a laugh.

Iberia:

Fortunetly for us you come here when we need a laugh as well. Between you and John and the rest of the corrupt left of this country, tell me why Taliban Jack used a private health care hospital for his operation, or Fence post Martin has a privete clinic in quebec for his health care, or Ray days Bob had his diagnosis and operation so quick while the rest of us have to wait for months?????????

nemississs:

Are you surprised that politicians are hypocrites?

In any case, original point of this thread was about why Canadian hospitals are not able to treat all patients, thus forcing them to go to US hospitals. Contrary to what many people posting here may think, it's not because the Canadian system is more inefficient than the US system; it's more likely due to the US health system receiving more money (ie. costing more) than the the Canadian systems. I provided links above to some studies...feel free to read them.