I'm not counted amongst those with a weak heart or stomach, but perhaps a warning for those who are might be appropriate.

I think if a country or state is going to have capital punishment it should be public. The fact that Texas does it in front of just a few witnesses vs Iran in the public square doesn't make it any less barbaric.

Yo, leftard. The difference is in Texas they execute for murder, in Iran they execute for any violation of their idiotic, retarded, braindead, moronic sharia law. Your attempt at moral relevance is pathetic, you idiot.

Yo, leftard. The difference is in Texas they execute for murder, in Iran they execute for any violation of their idiotic, retarded, braindead, moronic sharia law. Your attempt at moral relevance is pathetic, you idiot.

I wasn't aware that being conservative meant you had to think like all other conservatives.

I guess because I don't agree with you on capital punishment I'll have to withdraw my memberships in the Conservative Parties of Canada and the PC Party of Alberta.

No, you just cannot make a sweeping indictment against a state that has due process, vis-a-vis a tinpot republic led by mad mullahs and crazy Islamists. It is like comparing apples to tractors.

If capital punishment is to have a REAL effect on our crime rate, it MUST be done in public.
Hang 'em high in the public square! Dunno about you folks, but when there is a high profile execution in the US (Eileen Warnos for example) that is carried on the news networks, I get a chill down my spine, knowing that a person is going to die at a specific time and in a pre-determined, state sanctioned way. Very compelling.

You're not a conservative if you cannot comprehend the concept of capital punishment for capital offencees in the context of a representative republic in Western civilization and despite your personal affrontery to violence, learn to accept it.

Your just a pansy ass masquerading as a conservative for what reason, who cares? Maybe you'd rather be kissing a Mullah's ass.

be careful of what you ask for, public executions are and have been big draws in every country in every era.

heads on pikes were displayed into the 1700s in London

Hey Doug, lighten up. I think Reid understands the issue, and makes a good point, that being, that holding executions in private amounts to the same thing as having them in public. Whether you support it or not, it's a barbaric act, and hiding it away from the public doesn't change that.

Making that point doesn't make someone less Conservative, but perhaps less inhuman. And as for calling someone a "leftard", as Kingstontard does - maybe it's time to grow up a little buddy. I'm so tired of that word, and others like it.

I'm from Alberta, and I've voted Conservative for 3 decades. I've campaigned for the Conservative party, donated to it, and know a few of the candidates/MP's/MLA's personally. I've worn the damn button. My point is, I think I have the street cred, but I suspect I have more in common with people like Reid than with the Doug and Kingstontard.

You're not a conservative if you cannot comprehend the concept of capital punishment for capital offencees in the context of a representative republic in Western civilization and despite your personal affrontery to violence, learn to accept it.

Your just a pansy ass masquerading as a conservative for what reason, who cares? Maybe you'd rather be kissing a Mullah's ass.

And which Conservative governments have reinstated it in Canada since it's abolition or campaigned on reinstating it exactly?

And other than the USA which other "Western Civilizations" use capital punishment?

I find it interesting that other than the USA the only countries in the world that still use it are communist dictatorships or Islamic republics. What's the rest of the world know that the USA doesn't?

Being a "conservative" doesn't mean you have to be a bible thumpin, anti-abortionist, pro death penalty, knuckle dragging redneck.

You're just giving the lefties further fodder to stereo type us that way.

Thankfully the majority of us aren't so intolerant that we can't accept those that don't think exactly like us.

If the majority of conservative wanted capital punishment, then it would be conservative policy. I've sat in on policy meetings at the riding association level. Have you? If you have were you able to get it passed on to the national policy convention?

Considering the grassroots nature of policy in the Conservative Party why isn't capital punishment part of it's policy if it's so conservative to believe in capital punisment for capital crimes?

Hey, we can be Conservative and be against Capital Punishment. We can be Conservative and be pro choice, we can be Conservative and be for Gay Marriage. These are divisive issues and controversial for many and always will be.

Stereotyping people is no longer accurate.

The stereotyping is a battering ram for the media to use against the Right of the political spectrum but has fallen flat. They have moved on to other fabrications, whatever the wind blows in on any given issue they concoct a story and run with it.

Capital punishement,as meted out by murderers is indeed barbaric. Where was the victim's due process? If you can't wrap your head around the difference between the Taliban and due process,you are not,nor never have been a conservative. I syuppose you guys believe that DNA evidence isn't good enough,even the odds of a match are 1 in-a-trillion? So what? We wait around for another 1000 years until the population reaches that number to see which baby born then matches? Nice try Ried and jimbo,you useful idiots(troll is to nice a word for you clowns)

I'm reluctant to cite Wikipedia, but I couldn't find any other sources quickly as to Sinbad's origin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinbad

Says he was from Basrah, in Iraq.

With regard to capital punishment, it most definitely is not barbaric. The ancient Greeks, who were, in my opinion, the most civilized men the world has ever known, and who gave us the word barbarian to describe non-Greeks (specifically those coming from the Middle East), employed capital punishment, as every schoolboy knew before the "educators" took over our schools.

Oppppssss....my apologies for the mispelling Reid.

Liz....you agree that as a man,I have the right to tell you what to do with your body,i.e. abortion vs pro-choice? When's my supper?

Wow...there must be a full moon.

The guy on the end of the rope was probably gay or used his outside voice, while expressing an alternative form of government that he found preferable.

So who here would take their kids (kid in the picture's age)to a hangin?

re: "If you can't wrap your head around the difference between the Taliban and due process,you are not,nor never have been a conservative"

Hey "justthinkin", maybe you should try just thinking before you spout off. What you say isn't Conservative - it's stupid. The picture is from Iran, not Afghanistan. Nowhere does it mention the Taliban. Nowhere does it mention due process, or the lack of it.

I can appreciate people like "Silicon Valley Jim", who are able to disagree and use some kind of rational argument to make their point.

You can't be a conservative and support death penalty, like you can't be a conservative and deny the right to self defense. There are criteria, you know...

Would depend who they were stringing up. I'd put Osama Bin Laden's head on a pike on my front lawn, if I had it.

Still, the only capital punishment I can get behind is the private kind. Where the intended victim shoots the would be killer/robber/rapist/molester. Once you get lawyers involved, it all gets pretty sleazy.

I can appreciate people like "Silicon Valley Jim", who are able to disagree and use some kind of rational argument to make their point.

Now I'm blushing. Seriously, Jimbo, thank you for the compliment.

Sharia law (properly applied, of course) is actually one of the very few things of value in the moslem culture. They do not coddle homosexuals, rapists, pedophiles and murderers or enable them the way our homegrown liberals do.

I agree with the death penalty, and I agree that it should be public for anyone to watch...except the children.

I consider myself conservative, or a righty as you will.

To me that means that I will come by my position on any given subject by due consideration and will try to explore a dissenting opinion with civility and logic. You tend to get more meaningful discussion that way.

The socialist left can have reflexive idiological differences.

"They do not coddle homosexuals"

Are you saying that because you're a homosexual, that you be executed Jim?

I don't think it's a full moon, but it's getting strange in here. Now we have Jim, with whom I share a name but hopefully not much else, praising Sharia law, and comparing homosexuals with pedophiles, rapists, and murderers. What next, repealing the vote for women?

I'm starting to wonder if these aren't Liberal's pretending to be Conservatives in order to make us look bad. Sheesh.

I don't know if I would call that a hanging, looks more like a choking to my eyes. Stand the perp on a stool with rope round his neck, kick the stool over and stand back and watch the guy flail until he stangles to death. However, I concede I maybe just picky cause the end result is the same.

"Sharia law (properly applied, of course) is actually one of the very few things of value in the moslem culture."

You, Jim, are an idiot.

The REAL question is why is this little sl*t being allowed to prance around in western garb ?

Hey Jimbo....you think the Taliban ain't in Iran? Oh why do I bother wtih the left. Sorry for feeding the troll Kate. My bad.

There are hot button issues which cross political bents. Abortion is one and capital punishment is another. These issues have more religious influence than political.

Pro choice means you have a choice, what's wrong with that? You have control. No choice means you do not.
Justthinkin, if abortion is banned there is no choice, how else can you interpret that?

It's rather naive to think these issues break down politically. The media love to start questioning some politicians, especially on the Right about where they stand on hot button issues, somehow they omit asking the same questions of the Left assuming they are the opposite. It is not entirely so but it gives them something to stir controversy.

Gay marriage is another issue, a few Conservatives voted in favor of.

It's a sickening sight to see Islamists/Muslims, whatever, take their sweet innocent children to a hanging, that would not be politics, that would be religion gone amok in a very sick society of inhuman wretches.

Reid said:"I guess because I don't agree with you on capital punishment I'll have to withdraw my memberships in the Conservative Parties of Canada and the PC Party of Alberta."

Buh-bye

I saw several other pics leading up to and after this execution. This dude showed no fear. He smiled and waved goodbye to his friends. Almost looked a little too Hollywood. Like we used to say when we were young (but really didn't mean it)"live fast, die young and have a good looking corps".

I think you give them too much credit Liz J. Just garden variety police state murder dressed up like a mullah.

Mullahs would have stoned him to death, or possibly burned him at the stake. Nice bunch, the mullahs.

I'm a CPC member. I support capital punishment for crimes that I personnaly consider exceptionally heinous (1st degree murder, sexual assault of children, etc.).

If cap pun was reintroduced, I would not have a problem with public (14 years and over) executions.

This, for me, is common sense. Make sure it acts as a deterrent and make sure I'm not paying to keep the slime of society alive.

ADB - I guess that would be "corpse".

Perview is my fiend

Jim & Justthinkin, I guess I didn't get the e-mail explaining what a conservative thinks on any given subject. I can't believe the personal attacks because Reid doesn't agree with you. That's what the Lib and NDP blogs are about. I thought that you could have a rational debate at BT. By the way, I think execution is wrong.

Speaking as a Bible-thumpin', anti-abortion, pro-capital punishment, knuckle-draggin' redneck, Reid:

There are good down-to-earth engineering-type reasons (speaking as an Engineer) why each of the above "redneck" values would be the best course for a healthy, functioning society as a whole, whether you're religious or not.

1. Bible-thumpin' - Society needs either internal policemen or external policemen to control its members. There aren't enough external policemen, so somehow we need to internalize moral values. Bible-thumpin' has proven the test of time as the best way to do that. All I expect or want from the government in that regard is to not spit on those who are trying to build the moral fabric of society by promoting the one method that has passed the test of time - ultimate responsibility to a Supreme Being.

2. Anti-abortion - read Mark Steyn's 'America Alone', on the demographic problems faced by western society, and then tell me whether or not we should be destroying our future with abortion. And, isn't it more barbaric than capital punishment, which is at least honestly pro-choice? As in, you make the choice, you get the punishment.

3. Pro-capital punishment - I'm just asking, how can anyone be pro-abortion and anti-capital punishment. Isn't that an oxymoron? Is their logic that it's OK to kill someone as long as they don't know it's coming? I figure, give everyone a chance, but if they blow their chance, they gotta be old enough to know what the penalty will be before it happens.

4. Knuckle-draggin' - That's from carrying a lot of weight all the time. Society needs more workers and less leeches. If our knuckles didn't drag, how'd you tell us from the panty-waists who've never done a good days work in their life?

Being a conservative is having a free and open mind that can explore any idea without accepting it. It is having differences of opinion and being able to put your points and concerns up for discussion, not simple mindedly following the party line. Being able to "flip flop" your view according to information as you receive it, remember, great thinkers change their minds many times, fools never do. Being a conservative is never having a complete consensus on any topic lest you inhibit improvement.

Name-calling is a petty minded liberal trait and I wish I didn’t do it from time to time out of frustration.

It is beyond the pale relate what goes on in Texas to what goes on in Iran.

WARNING: very disturbing picture (group execution in Iran)
http://www.mideastyouth.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/12_te.jpg

Of course capital punishment has a place in society. Does Paul Bernardo deserve to live? Robert Picton? That lunatic who killed 4 RCMP officers? What purpose does their life serve except to waste money...

Well
It seems the conservative cops have shown up to enforce their ideas of Conservatism. What you two (kingstontard and justthinkin) are doing is no less then bullshit. So you are the ideal conservatives? What? You got a badge? F off Mr Thought Police. Go troll another blog.

So, you dislike the way they express themselves so that makes them trolls?

Justthinkin,

You seem to be inferring that the Taliban would be welcome in Iran. Are you nuts? They're mortal enemies, and the second biggest favour that the U.S. ever did for Iran was knocking out the Talibs. It was a necessary action post 9-11, but was nevertheless a big source of relief in Tehran.

The biggest favour was, of course, destruction of the Bathists in Iraq. A totally unjustified and stupid move that George Bush Sr. avoided, after having virtually destroying the Iraqi army, because he had more sense than Sonny. His government realized that Iran, not Iraq, was the real threat to U.S. interests in the region.

Homosexuality is OFTEN linked to other mental disorders like depression and pedophilia. Sorry folks, them's the facts.

Once you let one group of pervs out of the closet, the rest will want out too. Check this link out:

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jul/07073008.html

It is no wonder the moslems don't want anything to do with homosexuality or other liberal 'values'.

geez kate, sometimes the MSM serves your purpose afterall.

Yo, leftard. The difference is in Texas they execute for murder, in Iran they execute for any violation of their idiotic, retarded, braindead, moronic sharia law. Your attempt at moral relevance is pathetic, you idiot.

yo, kingstontard, the guy in the pics confessed to murdering a judge.

i guess them there texans practise yer shariaaa law too.

jim said,

Homosexuality is OFTEN linked to other mental disorders like depression and pedophilia. Sorry folks, them's the facts.

Once you let one group of pervs out of the closet, the rest will want out too. Check this link out:

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jul/07073008.html

It is no wonder the moslems don't want anything to do with homosexuality or other liberal 'values'.

isn't that precious? it's certainly a keeper.

Yes, and we all know how impartial the Iranian judiciary is. Confessions obtained in that country are of dubious origin, to say the least. Why so quick to defend mad mullahs leftard?

One more thing. Is your hatred of Americans so deep that you would actually try to assert that the Iranian justice system is more just than the Texas judiciary? You are a moron, eh?

kingstontard said: "Why so quick to defend mad mullahs leftard?"

Still with the "leftard" thing huh? Unlike you, Jeff Davidson pointed out facts of the story. You, on the other hand, leap to all kinds of conclusions. Why are you defending someone who murdered a judge? I'll bet if someone did that here, you'd be the first to yell "string 'em up".

Let's not get started on the Liberal controlled judiciary.

What is your point? Is it that our culture and government is superior to theirs? I'd agree wholeheartedly, but it seems there are more than a few posters on this board I'd never want to see having any power, including you. And as for so called Conservatives like Jim, justthinkin, and Doug - as inclusive as the Conservative party is trying to be, I can guarantee you'd be stripped of your membership if you expressed those views officially. We're trying to win a majority you know. You're not helping - you're embarrasing.

As a Christian who tends to cheer for the Conservative Party I am against both capital punishment and abortion for the same reason. I try to affirm life in all its aspects. Certain people need special care, like the Bernardo's of this world, and that special care is a life sequestered, keeping him from anyone who might fall victim to his murderous desires. Others need special care to keep their mothers from ripping them from their safe environment, the womb. Still others need special care like the elderly and the crippled, to keep those who practice euthanasia at bay.

Jim in Edmonton, checking in.

Yeah, I just want to second Jimbo there. I don't know if it's the heat or the humidity, but some of the comments makes you feel like you've stumbled onto a meeting of twelve year-olds in a tree fort.

All you putative conservatives here who think you're defending "our side" by attacking anyone with a different thought, and calling them names, well, you're not; you're taking a big crap in the community watering hole, and pretty much wrecking the comments section.

If you really want to be part of a community who has an identical set of beliefs, join a commune.

It's a forum, stupid, not a conservative swimming pool. And how can you admonish others not to crap in the pool as you call everyone else 12 year olds?

The story I read about this execution was that the gentleman that was swinging from the rope had participated in the murder of a Judge. Not too many countries in the world where thats legal, so I'm willing to go with Iran on that part of it at least. Hard to tell in a country like Iran if he received a fair trial, or if there was some just reason why this gentleman decided killing a judge was a good idea.

On the other hand, showing young girl that kind of violence at a young age is disgusting. Its bound to cause all sorts of psychological problems, and its child abuse.

The only other place where you might find that kind of a disgusting display being shown to children is in your local movie theater. Perhaps we in the west aren't as superior as we thought.

Look, Jim @ 11:49 et al, the point is that if people like you run around calling people stupid, or leftards, or pansy ass, then people who are interested in intelligently discussing the topic are driven away by the low signal to noise ratio that you cause. In that regard your behaviour is childish, which was I believe EBD's point. The community at hand is not some sort of putative conservatives, the community is Small Dead Animals.

Grow up.

Count me as another conservative who is very much against capital punishment.
In Iran or Canada or Texas. I'm agin' it.
Kookie pro-lifer, I guess.

John Kerry tried to look like a conservative he even blabbering about hunting elk or deer with a SHOT GUN what a idiot you hunt deer with a 30- 06 you hunt ducks with a 12 gauge and while kery is huntin quail with a pop-gun the quials with be making faces at him SQUAWK SQUAWK

Iran's government needs and deserves a conventional degrading more than Saddam's, and most know it...

I find it interesting that those who advocate capital punishment are also often the same people who have low degree of confidence in our judicial system.

If on one hand we complain about the inefficiency of our laws, the judges and even the abilities of the police, how is it we can then be so confident in a conviction of murder obtained by that system? How do we justify our bi-polar views on this subject?

Personally I am all for capital punishment if we can be reasonably sure that the judiciary is accurate. I am not convinced the system is free enough from corruption or incompetence to risk killing to many of the wrong people.

On another note it is a tactic of the left to brand all those that disagree with them as idiots and un-Canadian, I would hope that the conservatives of Canada would avoid that pitfall. If we of all people cannot be civilized then what hope is there?

"I don't know if I would call that a hanging, looks more like a choking to my eyes."

While it's not for me to decide the punishment meted out in foreign countries - assuming true guilt is a given - justice should not include barbarity.

I've just seen a video of two men and a woman (in full chador) being hung together - and I wish I hadn't. The three were raised from the ground by crane and thus were choked to death rather than 'hung' by a sufficient drop. The poor woman had her hands tied behind her and she writhed and twitched until death.

All while the crowd shouted 'Allah Akbar'. Texas justice - Iranian justice, all the same I guess, if you're just considering the outcome and not the method.

spurwing plover: "John Kerry tried to look like a conservative he even blabbering about hunting elk or deer with a SHOT GUN ..."

I not sure what hunting has to do with this thread. But just to set the record straight ... in Canada we have (or used to have) shotgun seasons (usually with the bow season or muzzle load) for deer. You had to use slugs.

Kerry, I believe, was stating he was a a hunter ... I have no problem with that.

Vitruvius, if you are going to act like an idiot people will call you one. It's the way of the world. I haven't called anyone here any names.

Yet.

But rest assured, when dealing with liberals names like tard and loser are quite appropriate. Forgive me if I don't accept you as an authority figure among the conservative community.

Me, I'm with Eeyore. Wow.

One last time. It is mind blowing (to say the least) that any person with a reasonable education could come on here and state that Iran and Texas are morally equivalent. Texas can change with an election, Iran on the other hand could use a good carpet bombing.

It is a choking. Any civilized country that still hangs, Japan for instance, uses a long drop so things are over quickly.

@jeff davidson (10:21 PM):

I have one question. How was that confession obtained? (You do recall, I hope, that there was a good reason why trial by ordeal was thrown out centuries ago in Western civilization.)

@every supporter of capital punishment:

Back in early 1960, the government of Prime Minister John Diefenbaker commuted the death sentence of Stephen Truscott. Had Diefenbaker not approved the commutation, the Government of Canada would have hung an innocent man.

I have a hunch that there's a high correlation between "Diefenbaker admirer" and "opponent of capital punishment."

@everyone: another question. Is moral equivalencing just a way to cover up ignorance with rhetoric?

With regard to capital punishment, it most definitely is not barbaric. The ancient Greeks, who were, in my opinion, the most civilized men the world has ever known, and who gave us the word barbarian to describe non-Greeks (specifically those coming from the Middle East), employed capital punishment, as every schoolboy knew before the "educators" took over our schools.

Posted by: Silicon Valley Jim at August 7, 2007 6:14 PM

Interesting. Considering that the capital punishment used in law by the Ancient Greeks was as prescribed in the "Draconic Code." And in the Draconic code EVERY criminal offense was punishable by death. Yes very civilized indeed.

The very same civilized laws that resulted in the execution of Socrates. His crime? Being a vocal critic of the government of Athens. He dared question notions of "might makes right" and he lobbied for "considerations of justice" and "the pursuit of happiness." It seems he was executed for daring to promote notions that are the basis of the US Constitution. What an evil criminal. You're right to admire capital punishment under the Ancient Greeks.

And while we're at it. Since the, "most civilized men the world has ever know," believed in slavery I take it you think that's a great idea too?

The very same civilized laws that resulted in the execution of Socrates. His crime? Being a vocal critic of the government of Athens. He dared question notions of "might makes right" and he lobbied for "considerations of justice" and "the pursuit of happiness." It seems he was executed for daring to promote notions that are the basis of the US Constitution. What an evil criminal.
I'm quite aware that Socrates was executed; I was referring to that when I said that every schoolboy used to know that the Greeks employed capital punishment.

You're right to admire capital punishment under the Ancient Greeks.

And while we're at it. Since the, "most civilized men the world has ever know," believed in slavery I take it you think that's a great idea too?

Where did I say that I admired capital punishment? I noted that it was not barbaric, since the civilization that gave us the word "barbaric" to refer to others employed it. I never said that I admired it. Please respond to what I wrote, not to what you think or wish that I had written.

As for the Greeks, specifically the fifth-century BC Athenians, being the most civilized men the world has ever known, Athens, with a population (including slaves, of whom I was also aware, thank you) of approximately 200,000, was home to Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides, Thucydides, Herodotus, and Pericles, among others. You are certainly welcome to believe that there has been a greater society, but I'll continue to disagree with you.

This is one of the worst threads I've seen here.

I might be wrong, but isn't the topic about the Muslim parents exposing their little girl to a hanging, the way any other parents might expose their child to, I don't know, Sesame Street, thus highlighting the obvious differences in what is considered a normal, healthy upbringing?

Kingstontard: Your attempt at moral relevance is pathetic, you idiot.

Doug: Your just a pansy ass masquerading as a conservative...

Justthinkin: Nice try Ried and jimbo,you useful idiots(troll is to nice a word for you clowns)

Ahhhh, I just love it -- loooooooooove it -- when SDA'ers eat their own.

FYI: turns out that this guy not only killed a judge, but also a cop and a bystander: 3w.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=472376&in_page_id=1811. As a lefty, I think he should've gotten probation plus free counseling and welfare cheques.

"isn't the topic about the Muslim parents exposing their little girl to a hanging, the way any other parents might expose their child to, I don't know, Sesame Street, thus highlighting the obvious differences in what is considered a normal, healthy upbringing?"

Yes "irwin daisy", thanks for bringing that up.

From that article whose link A'dam supplied (thanks for doing so, A'dam):

"Kavoosifar confessed after a three hour interrogation to murdering the judge as part of a personal vendetta, according to judicial officials quoted by state media."

I know Syria ain't Iran, and Iran ain't Syria, but if my recollection is accurate, both are Islamic republics. At least one of those two countries does not exactly have a "Western" record when it comes to observing the civil rights of the accused.

Hence my skepticism above. (General point to ponder: What if Arar had been strung up instead of jailed? How would he have acted?)

When it comes down to it, though, a line has to be drawn, and if the judgement of a foreign judge has no fishiness comong from it, there's nothing that can be done about it with respect to indigenously-accepted civil rights violations.

As far as taking the kids to a hanging, I suspect that the indigenous culture there considers it to be part of the kids' education in obedience to the State. For all I know, the Iranians would stick it in an Iranian analog to "Sesame Street," with an age-appropriate moral attached.

Jeff, I take exception to your comments about Texas Justice being Sharia law. Maybe you want to come down here and try to discus it some time. I'll even show you my permit to carry (concealed). Git R done!

What if with all the checks and balances we got the wrong guy for a hyenous crime and hanged him, just to realize that the real criminal is laughing around the corner? Too effin' bad? Only someone who never lost a loved one due to a terrible mistake can advocate a capital punishment.

Abortion... It's not abortion that is killing the WASP society - it's the government policies that suppress the will of people to have more children. You've been tricked! You've been PWND by the leftartds in the government bureaucracy! It's them who are corrupted by the commies and told what to do - that is to kill the industry in N. America and to move production to the commy states. The working class is becoming poorer, the wives have to go to work, childcare and child benefits are a joke and you have fewer babies... Open up your mind and you'll get it - that's what I tell my kids every night at the dojo...