To fill in a couple details from that reader tips thread, I then commented that to the degree that this is correct, the old lightening in an aquarium of primordal soup experiment may be out the window. We may have to adjust our models of the metaphysics of the origin of life. Of course, if things like this didn't happen, epistemology would be much less interesting ;-)

John Cross then noted that talking about the origin of life is more interesting when mixed with other organic molecules, and posted this excellent link about the discovery of beverage alcohol in space:

www2.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/january2000/posts/25617.shtm

And, ET noted that this suggests that the sensible and logical conclusion is that the origin of life isn't accidental, isn't deistic or theistic (and zeus, after all, sometimes appears as a lightning bolt), but is a self-organized and natural evolution of complexity.

I agree with them, moreover, I'm on the way to the bar. Can I get you anything?

Let me get this straight here - from 5000 light years away a scientist can eliminate all other potential sources of radio noise and definitively tell us that organic molecules are present in space around that distant star?

Kind of reminds me of the rock they found in Antarctica and determined that it had fallen off Mars.

Seems to me someone is trying to justify their grant and hoping no one will catch on.

I might of been born at night but I wasn't born last night.

The more we learn,the more we realize how little we know.

Yup. Astrochemists do it from much, much farther than 5,000 light years away. (Pun intended.)

Yet, the more we realize how little we know, the more we realize know. (Sic, and yes I'm using two different definitions of the word realize in that sentence.)

Vitruvius said "I'm on the way to the bar. Can I get you anything?"

Can you pick me up some beer? Some cans of Lethbridge Pilsner would be nice. Thanks.

Well, not to stray too far from the topic, yet serendipity intervenes, so I will note that Lethbridge Pilsner has been my favourite beer for over thirty years ;-)

Shouldn't there be a Galactic tax on that much booze?

PS: If that AGW thing doesn't work out ... try working a scare theme on this ... aliens are bad ... drunk aliens more so. Send money!

I'll go completely off topic ... I'm sucking back a "Old Syle Pilsner" looks like a Lethbridge ... made by Molsen (read Coors) ... what does it say on your tube/bottle?

Drat, in that last comment I meant to say: "of course, de gustibus non est disputandum". A wise man once said to me over a bottle, or perhaps a third bottle of Kupferberg, that "The nice thing about philosophy is that it passes the time and doesn't cost anything". (Clearly he was talking about theoretical philosophy, misapplied practical philosophy cost hundreds of millions of lives over the last century.)

The reason I mention this is to observe that it seems to be the case that if we are to have a discussion of metaphysics and epistemology, that is even peripherally related to the topic of alcohol, on a Saturday night, then apparently an honorary amount of effort must be spent on the topic of the drinking before the topic of the philosophy can properly proceed. And yes three of us here tonight are drinking Pil, there are seven rabbits and three crows (if memory serves).

Meanwhile, the biggest question of all remains unaswered:

Does existence ever do anything exactly once?

If not, then logically, time has no beginning and no end, and existense is spatially infinate. Were those not conditionally true, then existence would have done something exactly once. And, (back to the topic) if existence never does anything exactly once, then given the size of existence, life, as we know it here on Earth, must happen quite a lot, really.

Vitruvius,

Excellent comment. But if I had to paraphrase my comment ... it would be as such ... do you also see a bi-plane, stagecoach and a teepee on your beverage of choice tonight?

Yes. The five ink colours are red, green, yellow, black, and white. Not only is it (in my personal aesthetic opinion, of course), one fine beer, it is one of the most artistic (oh, oh, there's that word again) beer-o-logos.

Now, Ural, does existence ever do anything exactly once, in the sense I alluded to above?

Vitruvius: "...does existence ever do anything exactly once"

I would have to say yes ... but in batches.

Ah, but are not then the non-singlular batches sub-existences, in the sense that the trans-batch existence subsumes them all?

I see that someone has just visited my Sagacious Iconoclast Video Archive - tinyurl.com/2hxulx - from this page and viewed the "Most Important Image Ever Taken" video. That video, about the Hubble deep field instrument, shows ten thousand galaxies in a tinyest portion of the sky, that until before this instrument we thought was empty. The Hubble Deep Field Video is available here:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgg2tpUVbXQ

While I think that probably the Apollo 8 Earthrise image was the most important ever taken, it remains the case that the Hubble deep field video is directly on topic (yea!). There clearly appear to be bazillions of galazies, each containing hundereds of millions to billions of stars. If even a small relative portion of those are spewing organic molecules, and even a small relative portion of those effect Earth-like astrophysics, then it still remains the case that a large absolute number of Earth-like life contexts are likely.

Vitruvius: " ... but are not then the non-singlular batches sub-existences, in the sense that the trans-batch existence subsumes them all?"

It's interesting the you bring up the McDonalds french fry (chips) theorem ... but weren't we talking about brewskis?

On a different level, in Edmonton, Burger Baron is the only establishment that makes makes Corn Fritters ... works of art, available with choice of ketchup or strawberry jam (only an idiot would choose the jam).

Corn fritters are like snowflakes ... no two are alike ... but corn fritters are created by man - beautiful.

I try to save a couple after I make a trip to Edmonton ... I'm not proud of my record.

No, actually, we aren't principally talking about brewskis, we're talking about stars spewing organic molecules, and the existence of organic molecules in interstellar space, where we previously thought they wouldn't survive.

(Though, since you asked, and this is the last I'll say on the matter, Kentucky Fried Chicken used to make excellent corn fritters too, before they became KFC - and, frankly, I prefer the jam - and Burger Baron, an Edmonton phenomenon, as Ural noted, to this day makes a most excellent mushroom burger, with plenty of rich creamy sauce.)

Back to the topic, while it may be the case that no two corn fritters or snowflakes are alike, it remains the case that existence does neither corn fritters nor snow flakes exactly once. It's a matter of differentiating between the local fractal details and the existential fractal patterns.

By the way, for the record, nothing in the above transcript should be construed to imply that there are no things that existence never does. For example, even though in addition to corn fritters and snow flakes, existence does corn flakes, it remains the case that existence doesn't do snow fritters.

Once more for the record, here are thumbnail link images to 1926, 1950, 1961, 1975, 1985, and current House Of Lethbridge Old Style Pilsner labels, at BeerLabels.com: tinyurl.com/2ha75t

still cant find that 12th bunny.

I agree, vitruvius, existence does NOT 'do things' only once. That would be positing that time functions only within a linear mode - the Newtonian/Galilean mode. And as you know, I posit three modes of time.

But - note that biology, for example, still posits a one-time emergence of X; and a great deal of historical analysis is about the 'one-time event' - ie, they are still in linear time.

Scientists have known that organic molecules, including materials needed for cell membranes and amino acids, have arrived from space via meteorites since the discovery of the Tagish lake meteorite.

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article206.html

http://astrobiology.arc.nasa.gov/news/expandnews.cfm?id=1319

http://nai.arc.nasa.gov/news_stories/news_detail.cfm?article=old/cellmembranes.htm

Here come some organic stuff from ALPHA CENTARI

Yes, ET, and what scientists are "seeing" is events that happened 5000 years ago. Neat huh! Time to bone up on our temporal mechanics.

Meanwhile, the biggest question of all remains unaNswered:

"Does existence ever do anything exactly once?"

Are there singular events? Yes. One incarnation. One atoning death. One ascension. One (pending) return. One beginning of time. One end of time (followed by the post-game wrap-up and biggest party eternity has ever seen).

That time had a beginning can be demonstrated from philosophy. If time were eternal, there would be an infinite number of points prior to the present, meaning that the present could never be reached. If the present exists, time is finite and the universe had a beginning -- a singular event.

So, the question is, "does the present exist?".

If there is a post-game wrap-up and biggest party eternity has ever seen, then existence hasn't ended.

How can it start? Where did it come from?

How can it end? Where will it go?

Vitruvius:"... How can it start? Where did it come from? How can it end? Where will it go?"

You have noted that existence does corn fritters, snow flakes, and corn flakes. The answers that you are seeking, I believe, are in what existence doesn't do ... the snow fritter.

I agree, Ural. Like snow fritters, existence does not do beginning and end.

Interesting thread. Vitruvius and ET, I have to say I don't see how this has any import for metaphysics. All it does is change the baseline that evolution of life on Earth starts from.

I suppose if you're an "evolution denier" it could be a problem. On the other hand the Intelligent Design people could argue a point to them. The universe conveniently spews forth complex organics, that's pretty intelligent if its all designed to produce us.

For myself, I wonder how alcohol molecules survive the hard radiation and if there may be something there for us to use in space craft. The major problem keeping us from Mars missions is radiation and cosmic ray shielding.

And the matter of the designer designer?

I don't see how you get a religious argument out of organic molecules in space. My thinking (such as it is) on the subject is that cosmology and evolutionary theory don't impinge on religion at all unless one is gung ho for dogma and can't stand new things.

I mean, we didn't even know organic chemicals could exist in space, you going to tell me you have proof there's no God? These things cut both ways, y'know.

"And the matter of the designer designer?"

I chalked that up to recursion - after I got a headache trying to understand ET's 3 modes of time.

Just for a giggle, here's some more settled science. Casimir force turned backwards!

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/quant-ph/pdf/0608/0608115v5.pdf

For those of you who don't know what the Casimir force is, its what makes gecko feet sticky. Becomes a damn nuisance at computer chip factories because it makes teeny things stick to each other like glue.

Dr. Leonhardt and Dr. Philbin have postulated a way to make it push instead of pull, which is pretty frickin' kool I have to say. No one has actually built one yet, but I bet there are feverish brains thrashing away at it right now.

mr vitruvus:

wrap your head around this:

time did not always exist. in short, one way we measure time is the progression of events.

when the primordial atom was sitting around in X realm, time did not exist; the clock hadnt started to tick yet.

the atom was jostled, creating a dis-symetry in the constraining forces and BLAMMO !!! all existence was allowed to hurtle outward.

except time still did not exist, therefore it no time whatsoever for the matter making up those distance structure to reach their positions.

the light we are seeing from them hurtled back at us equally instantaneously, not being constrained by time.

then the clock was switched on and .....whhunggggggg!!!!! everything ground to the pace of the propagation of light; we are actually seeing the speed of time.

thus the first X light years distance took no time whatsoever for the light to travel, it wasnt constrained by time in its journey. the last Y light years that have passed since the clock was turned on and everything slowed down creates the illusion it took 20 'billion years with a B' for the stuff to get out there. the light and radio emissions are the only evidence we have ergo the theory is consistent with many sources and items of evidence including the never refuted fact that photons instantaneously accelerate to the speed of light before reaching so much as the next shell in the electron field, and then equally instantaneously decelerate to the speed of light.

they are asserting (reminding us of) their ability to travel at infinite speed but also show that they are now prevented from doing so by being captured by whatever time moment that happens to be in position when the photon pops into existence.

organic molecules from the stars? pshaw.

'some assembly required'.

also, who jostled the primordial atom and who turned the clock on shortly after?

one day the clock will be switched off from no longer being needed.

all this from a very reliable source.

If that's not Robert, it's a heck of a good caricaturization.

as far as the organic sourced ethyl alcohol stuff, likewise 'big deal'. limiting the finds to simple but very large amounts of a couple dozen organic molecules proves nada.

its like claiming that 'organic protons' abound.

sure do !!!! seeing as life MUST have protons in the constituent molecular building blocks, I hereby claim every smattering bit of matter everywhere 'proves' BOL was a spontaneous event.

uhhhh, can someone help me here; if 'life' is so easy to come by, howcum planets are not some grotesquery organism eating its own shit and offspring? why is that?

etc etc.

the other well kept secret, speaking of beer, the original inspiration for the canadarm happened in a bar in barrie when a visiting nasa engineer witnessed a local with 2 arm casts struggle to get the glass of molson's to his mouth.... true story....

I say, it appears we've got a bit of a live wire on the hook, eh what?
Fortunately voltage doesn't travel at the speed of light, or at all.

voltage doesn't travel at the speed of light, or at all."

so true. the presence of the voltage is detected thru the length of the conductor depending on the constituent metal at a range of from roughly 10 to 50% speed of light still rather speedy eh? goes to show ya cant believe everything ya hear in secondary school. and it also proves I got a real real good memory for events even if those events consist of so-called experts trying to impress others. as in confusing 'presence of the voltage' with the voltage being the thing travelling (which was simply a short hand for making the point) st vitus however 'pounces' to 'prove' masculine prowess or something ego-driven and REFUSES to answer the question of what gets the voltage going in the first place.

light on the other hand, CAN be halted to a dead stop:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/27mar_stoplight.htm

to emphasize: st vitus still refuses to give so much as a 'molecule' of a hint how induction works. care for another opportunity?
how do millions of watts of power bridge the insulators in those transformers at a hydro generating plant o wise one?

Im not interested in the simple mathematics of figuring out the voltage change based on comparison of # of coils or the more complex mathematics delving into the relationship between strength of the magnetic field vs amount of elec power generated; those are typical tangent points inserted to avoid answering 'the question' posed more than a dozen times.

I know the answer; I just want to find out if any of you wise-asses do as well.

is the sarcasm tsunami detection system in place yet katey? you can use "caricaturization" for starters.

note well people, if this turns into yet another verbal nuclear exchange, vitus lobbed the first ordnance.

and note also every time I get the boot I simply put on a different suit and crash the party again via several THOUSAND back doors.

I heard that time (and the brewing of beer) started shortly after one Egyptian asked another "Got time for a brewski?" First the beer and then the sundial.

CARL SAGAN once said that were STAR STUFF whata crack-pot then he gose and says EVOLUTION IS APROVEN FACT what a big fat liar

Evolution IS a proven fact, Spurwing.

That is, one can prove that evolution does indeed occur. Bio 101 class, they do it in a petri dish. This bit of evolution is known as acquired antibiotic resistance. Evolution is also observed directly in insects, and even in computer programs. So evolution as a mechanism is as real and observable as a 2x4 to the head.

Whether evolution alone is sufficient to account for the entire history of life on Earth is a separate issue, and currently is a hypothesis. Not a "proven fact".

One can see evolution proceed through the fossil record, but there has always been a problem back at the beginning of how life started. Did it get started by carbonaceous molecules suspended in water, did it fall from the sky already alive, was it a bit of both? Is life self assembling and common or is it rare and flukey?

Nobody knows for sure. We don't have a Wayback Machine (TM) to go look, so we have to make do with indirect evidence.

My point is, so far as there being a deity it makes no difference. We know for pretty sure that God didn't make the Earth in seven days, but unless one is a Bible literalist that doesn't mean jack. The existence of evolution as a mechanism does not disprove God, it just means God is different than the Bible stories.

There are people who don't like that, but as we see here every day there are other people who hate the very idea of God. (NOT Vitruvious or ET) Neither position makes much sense to me.

My feeling is I can't tell for sure one way or the other, nor can anybody else. So I go through life with my eyes open in case I might see something interesting. I'm seldom disappointed.

According to the response to my 12:46 probe, "Pokemon" is indeed Robert J. Bullocks, ex B.A., B.Sc. He has started infecting other threads too. Even the police know he is nuttier than a fruitcake. Time to call Orkin.

What's his malfunction Vitruvius? Genuine supra tentorial or just Leftardism?

You can view the comments he posted before being banned as
shown in the following PDF, where he writes as "isp_whut_isp":

www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=137181&da=y

Ohhh, THAT guy. Major brain damage.

One can see evolution proceed through the fossil record...

Only through subjective interpretation using the theory of evilution as the subjective guide.

Circular reasoning.

note: evilution deliberately mispelled.