Indeed. Just think of how much Jamaican immigrants contribute to our culture and economy: monotonous, illiterate music that all sounds the same, filthy hairstyles, those little tricoloured Rasta doohickies.

Toronto folk love their Islander, Negro Criminals, They make the place look colorful and multicultural.

I can hear those oil pan drums pinging in the background as I write this ... Ya mon ... everting bees cooool doncha know! Dis Canada, free everting no jail ... judges stupid, can't make me go home neither mon hahahaha.

Well, I'm not a racist so I do not have any cultural remarks to make. I do have one thing to say about this kind of campaign. CRAP!
We don't need this kind of stuff and we shouldn't damn well allow it.

No cultural remarks here either but I do wonder if there's a church basement he can claim sanctuary in.

Come to Canada, Socialist Haven, Welfare State from cradle to grave, known around the World. Get your feet on Canadian soil and everything is in place to look after your every need.

Give thanks to Pierre Trudeau and his Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

give thanks to the supreme court

Why is mocking Jamaican culture "racist"? (Not that I accept the overuse of this once-powerful concept anyhow...)

Jamaican culture stupid and ugly. You or other readers might say the same of Nascar redneck culture. So what? Oh I forgot, those people are white so its ok.

It's so sad that Canadian conservatives feel obliged to parrot liberal PC foolishness.

"Just think of how much Jamaican immigrants contribute to our culture and economy: monotonous, illiterate music that all sounds the same, filthy hairstyles, those little tricoloured Rasta doohickies."

Take a tour of Toronto area "extended care facilities" (nursing homes, in old-speak).

Count the Jamaican nurses taking care of the old folks.

Now - you want to get rid of Jamaicans?

Better be ready for a massive importation of skilled, caring nurses and nurses aides from... well, somewhere.

It's that or some euthanasia legislation.

Thank god its in T.O. They deserve it.

Now they can't afford to keep all the transit lines going. Its a double wammy.

All the immigrants who don't work don't contribute taxes and DON'T NEED TO RIDE TRANSIT.

Ya got what ya deserve!!!

Horny toad

I wonder if these guys would be willing to help him.

toronto.nooneisillegal.org/about

Reminds me of an incident my wife had while we were on vacation. She had to go to the manicure person on board to get some fingernail thing fixed. The woman was Jamaican. She asked my wife where she was from and she replied "near Toronto".
The woman looked at her horrified and said " how can anyone live there with all that crime and all those shootings"?
And by the way RC, Jamaicans make up a relatively small percentage of the Negroes in Toronto. Most of them come from the other islands like Barbados St. Lucia, St. Vincent and St. Maarten.

Love that poster! it's the youngest pic of Mickey I've ever seen, must be even pre Andy Hardy.

Shame on you for all these racist comments. This man is a victim of an uncaring and vicious society. He has been failed by society at every turn. He is crying out for love and understanding.

Beckford's one attempt to change his ways involved briefly cutting back on his crack habit from $100 to $40 a day, said the judge.

Jailed 20 times in 20 years, 60 criminal convictions, a refusal to work, an HIV menace, what more is there to review? In a rational world, a 15 minute review, then, his sorry butt would be yanked out of jail and driven to an airport.

He can find plenty of crack in Kingston.

Is his Jamaicanness at issue or his being an immigrant the issue. I would suggest an immigrant from anywhere with his attitude and record would be just as worthy of our scorn and derision.

Of course, I would like to deport born Canadians with his record and attitude, but we are stuck with those.

Kathy Shaidle: Just think of how much Jamaican immigrants contribute to our culture and economy: monotonous, illiterate music that all sounds the same, filthy hairstyles, those little tricoloured Rasta doohickies. Why is mocking Jamaican culture "racist"?...Jamaican culture stupid and ugly. You or other readers might say the same of Nascar redneck culture. So what? Oh I forgot, those people are white so its ok.

No, Kathy, it's still not ok. Both are racist. Criticize Canada's immigration policy, justice system, or Mr. Beckford in whatever language you like. But rejecting political correctness does not give one license to indulge in bigoted stereotyping of an entire ethnic group -- any ethnic group. You should retract your statements.

A'dam, please point us to the "progressive" blog where you have scolded THEM for any racist, sexist, mysogynist, cultural or ethnic statements they have made...particulary about Westerners or Christians. Please just one. Okay?

THEN, maybe your comment will hold some weight.

Mistah Mickey - He dead.*
...-

[Hamas] Death Cult Mickey Beatdown
(via LGF)
*H/T Joseph Conrad

A'dam:

In that case Bob and Doug Mackenzie should apologize for stereotyping male white Canadians as beer swilling "hosers".

Discrimination!! Call in the human rights tribunal.

This individual isn't even making an effort.

My brother-in-law originally hails from Jamaica and is self employed. He even occasionally jokes about his own culture.

Evidently, lacking an appreciation of black farce!

Kathy is wrong about four things:

Jamaican beaches are reportedly some of the best in the world.

Bob Marley wrote nice tunes.

Blue Jamaican Coffee numbers among the best in the world. Starbucks can bite me!

The Jamaican bobsled team gave winter sports new meaning!!

Lighten up and live.

So although not all Jamaicans are the same, there is a Jamaican culture. But because not all Jamaicans down to the last man are the same, that culture can’t be criticized?

A'nnoying

Reality check- do you mean the same type of nurses who were caught abusing disabled veterans at Sunnybrook?

Hans Rupprecht, Mississauga Matt: Context is important. As dkjones pointed out above, why does it matter that Mr. Beckford is Jamaican? Do you believe that there's something about Jamaican culture that explains Mr. Beckford's antisocial and criminal record?

A thought experiment: if every detail of this case were exactly the same, except that Mr. Beckford was of, say, English, descent, do you suppose that:
1) Kate would have bothered to blog about it; and
2) readers here would have used the post as an opportunity to make derisive comments about English culture?

Eeyore: Just so I'm clear, are you taking issue with the fact that (in your impression) I only condemn racist comments here and not at "progressive" blogs, or that you think Kathy's comments are, in fact, not racist and derogatory?

A'nnoying
Kathy's comments are neither bigoted nor racist.
They may be offensive to some but that's the price one pays for living in a society that values the right to free expression.

A'dam, you picked the wrong board to play the game of smearing the opinions of others that you don't agree with as racist. Kathy owes no one an apology for her opinion of another culture. All cultures aren't equal, some contribute more than others. Moral equivalency is a left construct not the reality.

If I say that Arab/Islam is a sick and dysfunctonal culture/religion filled with marginal macho men and primitive behaviors, which is my opinion, you can call me racist too. I could care less.

Your playing the outraged virtucrat isn't any more impressive than Al Sharpton's crying racism and trying to arbitrate free speech on the earlier thread.

A'dam - Your argument, what little of it there is, happens to be a typicaly silly attempt at PC entrapment- why wouldn't they blog about an Englishman- all those bad teeth etc - it would be just as funny and just as relevant. Please, your PC pieties are showing;)

Research the murder rates in Kingston, A'dam and get back to us.

I believe any free thinking adult can see that political correctness is no more than a list of permissable bigotries accompanied by a list of those that are not.
Of course this biased and often hate-fueled hypocracy is what the left considers equality and even more strangely.....morality.

I see many conservatives here are not afraid to expose their racist bigotries(for slagging an entire culture over the actions of a few of it's members is nothing less).

When will the right try to mainstream and promote it's bigotries formula,aka 'political correctness'?

And...what would the right call it?

Right thinking?

Why I think he's a nice looking young mon, mon.

Oh then thats settled, so which type of bigot would you be then Canadian Observer?

It is RACIST to NOT criticize a rotten culture. I believe they call it the racism of lower expectations. Accordingly, all hard-lefties are deeply racist.

Bill Cosby and Spike Whathisname were not racist for excoriating the rotten nigger-gangsta-rap culture.

Nor was it racist for me to the use the foreoing N word.

This thread is a little uh, off track?

Nothing is all Black or all white.

Not all of Islands culture is ugly.

The music is CERTAINLY not illiterate. In fact, the intricacy and variety of steelpan is totally the opposite of the poverty it comes out of.

Lots of good people there as there are in every population.

I*m not trying to attack anyone and their opinion. Just suggesting ease off a little.

The point of the post still stands but total smear is never totally correct. = TG

A'dam....you still haven't pointed out just which "progressive" blogs you have scolded for racial comments, as eeyore asked. Typical leftie method. Until you do, you are nothing more than a twit troll. Oh my. Was that racist against trolls???

Well said MND. Very well said indeed.

It's no secret, Jamaican gangs have been a problem in Toronto, that's what they're called because they're from Jamaica, not from Switzerland or Grenada, but Jamaica. Gun violence of course is scary stuff in any community and extremely serious, goes along with the drug trade. Deportations are in order for any who are convicted. It's not the way we live.
Every time we have a shooting in Toronto, stunned beyond belief Mayor Miller calls for hand gun registry in a press conference, that's it, that's all till the next time.

It's not racist to mention their actions and lifestyles. Many are Rastafarians and are not materialistic but supposedly peaceful.

The criminal element is a whole other story.

A'**dam, how about you go do to yourself what Brian Mulroney, on Nation TV, told Peter C Newman to do.

TG keep talkin like that and you're gonnna ruin it for everybody;)

Rupprecht, above, says it*s OK not to jump when all the Lemmings are. = TG

Oops, that would be "National" TV.

I did A'dam's research for him. Jamaica has a big crime and drug problem, severe enough as per the World Bank to cut into its GDP, which doesn't end with immigration if you examine crime statistics in Canada.

www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20070504/lead/lead1.html

Obviously most Jamaicans aren't involved in drugs and crime, but, in disproportionate numbers crime and drugs are a problem for them as a group.

All of which is beside the point anyways. The real point is the perpetually offended little lefty virtucratic bores that read racism into any opinions they don't like, PC hustlers, no different from Al Sharpton in the censorship tactics they employ.

Sign. I wish the world's Adams would read my post about the tiresome self-righteous liberal "Not all Xs are Ys, I'll have you know!" rhetorical trope -- which always reminds me of someone getting mad at the weatherman by yelling "The sky isn't ALWAYS overcast, you know!!!"

shaidle.blogmatrix.com/:entry:shaidle-2007-07-02-0001/

I retract nothing and never will. Your PC worldview is one I don't recognize, and its arbitrary rules do not apply to me.

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own."

Girls, girls, please,Sorry,

** does not give one license to indulge in bigoted stereotyping of an entire ethnic group -- any ethnic group. You should retract your statements.**

But this is all he said. Prove it wrong and I*ll eat my shorts. = TG

Blazingcatfur,

I'm an average,everyday bigot,thank you.
What kind do you consider yourself?

My point being,I believe bigotry is a natural human condition.Where character enters the picture is in how we react to those feelings.Those self-righteous enough to claim they have no bigotries of any kind,to me,are f*cking liars,and are usually the first to try and define an entire group by the actions of a few or by pushing tired stereotypes.

I just find it very funny that in the modern world of political blogsites,people waste so much time and energy trying to call out their opponents as bigotted,when they are obviously bigotted themselves.

Partisanship born of bunkered us vs them mentalities and nurtured by groupthink blogsites is poisoning western culture.

At least that's what this one bigot thinks.

Cultural commentary is not bigotry. If I said female circumcision was a disgusting cultural practice would that make me a racist? Muslims themselves protest this practice and describe it as a regional or ethnic practice as opposed to an Islamic practice.

If I condemn the Jamaican community in Toronto for the well entrenched cultural practice of refusing to cooperate with Police and refusing to come forward to name the killers in their midst am I a bigot also?

Cultural commentary is allowed to extend to all aspects of a society. I do not have to suspend the beliefs and values of my culture and society in the name of sparing others offense.

TG, stereotyping an entire ethnic group based on the behaviour of a handful (since we obviously cannot possibly meet every single person who has every lived...) has taken place since the dawn of time, by both ordinary people, and by writers and thinkers far cleverer and more talented than you or Adam.

In other words, this "stereotyping" (or if you like, conversational shorthand) was a completely acceptable way of talking and thinking all over the world, among every race (ask a Japanese person about Jews, blacks or whites sometime...) up until the time Experts and Academics began convincing gullible dopes that what ordinary people saw and experienced with their own lying eyes was invalid. Because it "wasn't nice."

Alas, many foolish people go along with this Naked Emperor enterprise.

That is not my problem.

You are invited to read my blog post on this subject and see if you accept my argument. If you are an intelligent person, then you will. And at that point, then may I recommend briefs over boxers?

Canadian Observer, my last post was not in answer to yours, I was just testing the rhetorical waters.

I see your point and in fact believe we are all hard wired xenophobics - it's simply part of the fight or flight mechanism. Political correctness is simply another stupid socialist attempt at social engineering.

Can I just add here that the fact that the fellow pictured in Kate's photoshopped poster actually convinced Ava Gardner to marry him, however briefly, is yet another argument for the repeal of the 19th Amendment...

Partisanship born of bunkered us vs them mentalities and nurtured by groupthink blogsites is poisoning western culture.

This is something I worry about a lot, in fact. But I'm convinced it's entirely the left's fault :). But joking aside, I DO worry about this.

The terms Bigot and racist are used by the PC socialistic hordes to stifle debate that isn't going according to their ideology.

I think it is true, we are all bigots to some degree.

@penny:

Do you plan to do his homework for him too?

[Side note: any legitimate request along that line will tend to raise hackles as of now because there are too many trollies around who blurt out gratuitous assertions and expect the respondant - the defendant - to do the heavy lifting in terms of assuming the burden of any proof. Any rancor raised by such requests is likely due to prior experience of the burdensome consequence of loudmouth laziness. I've faced it several times previously.]

A'dam, just so you're clear, I am taking issue with the fact that (in my impression) you only condemn racist comments here and not at "progressive" blogs.

Prejudice is judging before meeting. Racism is discriminating on the basis of race. I am fairly certain that Kathy is not "discriminating" solely on the basis of the fact that they were born in Jamaica or that they are black...if they were born in Jamaica or were black and NOT prone to violence, she wouldn't be criticizing them. Notice she's not complaining about Zimbabweans or South Africans or Trinidadians or Bermudans or the like...just Jamaicans who can be shown to be involved in a statistically significant number of the cases of violence in Toronto.

I'm fairly certain YOU don't like Conservatives and I strongly suspect that you ascribe negative characteristics to them...you are as guilty as Kathy. You just happen to not voice your displeasure against an identified "victim" group.

I tend to agree with Canadian Observer, though I don't call it racism...I think that Blazingcatfur's xenophobic term is more accurate.

It's way too difficult to keep qualifying all your remarks with "Studies show that a statistically significant number of Jamaicans are..." when you can more easily say "Jamaicans are...".

Thanks eeyore. Indeed, as I've said in forums like this one many times: I've met a number of Trinidadian and Bermudan born Canadians in my 43 years on the planet. And to a man ("And woman!" "Yes, yes, and woman...") they have commented to me, completely unprompted but apropos of a conversation about this or that person's behaviour:

"Jamaicans give us a bad name wherever they go."

And note that they never bother saying "Some..." :-)

I'm more interested in the truth, and in my own personal experiences, than I am in this week's PC rule about what one is or is not supposed to think or speak.

And I feel sorry for people for whom the latter has become their cowardly default position. It is a meager, mendacious way to pass one's precious, one-time-only existence.

I judge a culture by the people I have actually met from that culture.

So far the Jamaicans I know are good, honest, smart, funny, hard working, dependable people.

Also, crack is pure evil. Anyone, no matter what culture they come from, if addicted to it is screwed. They are the walking dead.

Kate: Research the murder rates in Kingston, A'dam and get back to us.

Kate (and others) -- if you want to discuss the higher murder rates in Kingston, or among Jamaican Canadians/Jamaicans living in Canada, their causes and consequences, etc., that's one thing. But it doesn't follow that those level of violence correlates with anything inherent to Jamaican culture, and doesn't permit making derogatory statements and insinuations about Jamaicans in general.

"Do it for the children ..." and "If we can save the life of just one child .." are standard lefty mantras.

Well, I say that if we can save the life of just one child by deporting the entire Jamaican community in Canada, then we should do it .. for the sake of the children.

...hey mon.

Blazingcatfur: If I said female circumcision was a disgusting cultural practice would that make me a racist? Muslims themselves protest this practice and describe it as a regional or ethnic practice as opposed to an Islamic practice.

No, it wouldn't make you a racist. But if you didn't stop there, for example, if you then when on to say that Muslim is a disgusting culture, then yeah, you'll have verged into bigotry.

If I condemn the Jamaican community in Toronto for the well entrenched cultural practice of refusing to cooperate with Police and refusing to come forward to name the killers in their midst am I a bigot also?

Again, no, but do you think "Just think of how much Jamaican immigrants contribute to our culture and economy: monotonous, illiterate music that all sounds the same, filthy hairstyles, those little tricoloured Rasta doohickies" is a justifiable statement to make in light of their reluctance to cooperate with police, or under any circumstances?

And about my thought experiment, Blazing, do you really believe that if Mr. Beckford was in fact a white Englishman, that anyone here would spontaneously comment about his dental hygiene, or any other stereotype of English culture? I'm more inclined to think that the discussion would be limited to the particular person in question, and his ethnic or cultural background wouldn't come up at all.

@A'dam: Just a note - my earlier complaint was not indirectly aimed at you, so I'm glad you didn't interpret it that way.

You're formally right, in that making the culture-of-crime claim from viewing those statistics affirms the consequent. The trouble is, though that all raw induction formally affirms the consequent...which goes a long way in explaining why inductive logic has been so damned hard to put together. It may even explain why scientists used to be roundly averse to Aristotle.

We do know that subcultures have norms and mores. A "culture of crime" would have norms that enjoin breaking certain laws.

It is outragiously funny that the stereotype police on this thread assume that "Mickie Roan Beckford" is black, because he happens to come from Jamaica.

Georgia does it like this. . .

Georgia’s illegal alien population reportedly doubled between 2000 and 2005. Overwhelmed by non-assimilating, non-English speaking foreigners, Georgians have chosen to deal with the glut themselves.

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports that drivers who can’t show proof of residency (with a valid Georgia driver’s license or state ID) cannot register cars. The new law went into effect on July 1.

http://lashawnbarber.com/
========================== TG

Eeyore: if they were born in Jamaica or were black and NOT prone to violence, she wouldn't be criticizing them. Notice she's not complaining about Zimbabweans or South Africans or Trinidadians or Bermudans or the like...just Jamaicans who can be shown to be involved in a statistically significant number of the cases of violence in Toronto.

Yes, but behind her criticism is the insinuation that Mr. Beckford is prone to violence because he is born in Jamaica. When discussing Robert Pickton, does anyone make anything of the fact that he's white? No, not even when one observes that, to paraphrase you, whites "can be shown to be involved in a statistically significant number of the cases of serial killing in Canada." No, he's just a regular violent psychopath -- no causal links drawn to where he was born or the culture he grew up in. Similarly, is Maurice Boucher just a career criminal and convicted murderer, or is there something about motorcycle culture that compels him? Say, doesn't Kate ride bikes too?

I tend to agree with Canadian Observer, though I don't call it racism...I think that Blazingcatfur's xenophobic term is more accurate.

Call it what you want. And I agree that, for an evolutionary perspective, xenophobia may be a hardwired survival adaptation. But so what? That helps to explain why nobody here -- including myself -- is perfect, and why we all continue to behave badly on occasion. But it doesn't justify willful xenophobia. It's not that the KKK, al Qaeda, etc. are just victims of evolutionary tendencies and just can't help themselves -- they indulge in their intolerance of others.

It's way too difficult to keep qualifying all your remarks with "Studies show that a statistically significant number of Jamaicans are..." when you can more easily say "Jamaicans are...".

Expediency is no excuse, though I suppose that if all you wish to do is criticize Toronto's Jamaican community, then callous and lazy language may suffice (for you). But if you wish your comments to be viewed as constructive criticisms offered in the spirit of seeking truth and finding solutions (that fall short of forced mass deportations), then choice of words becomes of vital importance.

Back on track here, I hope. Let me reinterate two points:
1. Mickey is a career criminal, commiting crimes in Canada, against Canadian residents, and,

2. Mickey is not in Canada legally so he shouldn't really even be in Canada commiting crimes.

So, in my humble opinion, if you solve the problem in point #2, then it follows that the victims of the criminal in point #1 would not become victims of said unsavoury charactor, Mickey. Even forgetting about the victims for a moment, what is this person costing the taxpayer in legal fees, court costs, incarceration expenses, probation officer's wages, immigration lawyers, welfare and that top notch free medical care?

End of sermon. Amen.

Yes, there are many wonderful, dependable Jamaicans--I met one at church last night. However, there is a very distinct aspect to Jamaican culture, which, in general, works very poorly for those who perpetrate it, their children, and society as a whole. What is it? FATHERLESS households. I believe that this attribute is all too prevalent amongst Jamaicans, in contrast to, say, Africans: I know some professionals from Ghana, who also have a very low opinion of Jamaicans, who, they say, give all blacks a bad reputation.

I've also taught Jamaican Canadian children from fatherless homes, whose mothers had multiple children by multiple fathers: in far too many instances, these mothers and their children, who live on social assistance, have no initiative at all: they cede responsibility to others, as in, "Isn't there somebody [rather than me] to do . . .?" or "Nobody [+ verb for whatever needed doing] . . . " This lack of initiative and responsibility--one mother I knew wouldn't sign any forms sent home, even those for trips or pizza days and certainly never lifted a finger to see that even a minimal amount of homework was done--are a serious drag on society, including the huge cost of all the special education programs these kids need. Add their serious deficits in concept and language acquisition and language processing and the problem is gigantic. (What kind of job is one likely to hold down when one's intelligence is marginal and one's sense of responsibility is zilch?)

Does the educational system attempt to hold these kids and their parents to account? Not on your life. (Note the murder of the far from angelic Justin Manners at C. W. Jefferys School and the administration's culture of "ignore and appease".) Black kids--and those of any other "sensitive" group--are let off the hook all the time in the public schools of this country. Irresponsibility and bad behaviour are overlooked over and over again. Teachers who are truly colour blind re discipline and behaviour codes are likely to be disciplined themselves for actually holding such kids--or their enabling parents--to account.

Our judges, using the subversive Charter, are cut from the same mould as the lily-livered education bureaucrats, none of whom have to deal with the fallout in the trenches. What hypocritical cowards and toadies these people are! But, they fit like a hand in a glove the irresponsible, immature--and sometimes criminal--cretins who are far too numerous in the Jamaican community.

Kyrie eleison.

Make that "Jordan" Manners.

Kate: It is outragiously funny that the stereotype police on this thread assume that "Mickie Roan Beckford" is black, because he happens to come from Jamaica.

Oh? I believe it was Kathy who heard "born in Jamaica" and immediately thought of "filthy hairstyles." And I believe it was John who heard "born in Jamaica" and observed that "Toronto folk love their Islander, Negro Criminals..." And I believe it was Ralph who heard "born in Jamaica" and noted that "Jamaicans make up a relatively small percentage of the Negroes in Toronto."

And instead of the rhetorical one-liners, Kate, why not come out and defend your thread directly? Instead of vague insinuations about Jamaican culture and crime, why don't you just state it plainly? Oh, but I suspect you're too smart, and cautious, for that.

lookout: Black kids--and those of any other "sensitive" group--are let off the hook all the time in the public schools of this country. Irresponsibility and bad behaviour are overlooked over and over again. Teachers who are truly colour blind re discipline and behaviour codes are likely to be disciplined themselves for actually holding such kids--or their enabling parents--to account.

On the contrary, lookout, kids of minority backgrounds appear to be disproportionately and negatively impacted by the Ontario Safe Schools Act, which calls for zero-tolerance policies. Same results in the US and the UK, based on more comprehensive studies.

Texas Canuck: So, in my humble opinion, if you solve the problem in point #2, then it follows that the victims of the criminal in point #1 would not become victims of said unsavoury charactor, Mickey.

I never thought I'd say this, but exactly, TC. One would have thought that the comments here would've followed along the lines of our "67 strikes and you're out" deportation policies, "revolving door" justice system, etc. Which makes the questions of why Kathy decided that "Jamaican" and not "career criminal" or "illegal immigrant" was Mr. Beckford's most salient characteristic, and why Kate pointed to Kingston's high murder rate as if this fact has some explanatory value for Mr. Beckford's criminal record, all the more interesting.

Kate: " ... assume that "Mickie Roan Beckford" is black, because he happens to come from Jamaica."

I just assumed he wasn't white ... the star would have pointed that out.

Adam says: "No, Kathy, it's still not ok. Both are racist. "

What's wrong with being racy?

Normally I'd jump in here with facts and figures and this thread would be over, except I'm a bit miffed at my fellow Canadians right now. You people don't deserve the protection of my VAUNTED debate skills.

I will say this: if, in the year 2007, the white race has not yet figured out how to effectively counter the race card, then it deserves extinction. Come on, folks. We're smart people. We can put a man on the moon but can't beat a 22 year old socialist kid from Amsterdam in debate?

A'dam, you're getting old, real old.

Take a stab at this...."If I say that Arab/Islam is a sick and dysfunctonal culture/religion filled with marginal macho men and primitive behaviors, which is my opinion, you can call me racist too"....then again, don't bother, you've glibbly glossed over that comment of mine because you know it's hard to refute that one. It certainly meets your criterion as racist, but, you know better than to expose your little selective PC hustling for what it is.

"Same results in the US and the UK, based on more comprehensive studies."....reading through your link, it's a meaningless nothing, crafted on empty speculation.

Canada and Jamaica are culturally similar but racially distinct.

Jamaica and Haiti are racially similar but culturally distinct.

We rule. Jamaica sucks. Haiti totally blows.

A'dam, are you from Jamaica? (Just joking . . .) If you believe what you've just written, we've got a problem. Zero tolerance is a no-go: not only does it not work, most school boards--in an uncharacteristically common sense move--have abandoned it. (I didn't use it with even my most egregious students, who often needed some space to work things out.)

You say, "kids of minority backgrounds appear to be disproportionately and negatively impacted by the Ontario Safe Schools Act". Perhaps this statement is correct. Now, why do you think such children might be impacted in such ways?

Might it have anything to do with their BEHAVIOUR?

Due to very poor social and language/language processing skills, as well as a sense of entitlement minus responsibility, many of these children exhibit seriously anti-social behaviour. E.g., One of my Jamaican/Canadian students brought a lethal weapon to school and threatened another student. Zero/zilch sanctions were imposed by administration, who referenced the board's "mitigating circumstances" rubrics, which, BTW, virtually cancel out any meaningful consequences for anti-social, disrespectful, and even dangerous behaviours. (The "mitigating circumstances" had nothing to do with the child and everything to do with administration saving face: "Problem? What problem?" Check out C.W. Jefferys again, A'dam.)

Considering the DECADES I've spent in the trenches of the public school system, I honestly find your comments facile and uninformed. I have a question:

Do you actually WANT irresponsible, unintelligent, and semi to full juvenile delinquents to be let off the hook? (The Safe Schools Act is a joke. We apparently both think so but from opposite ends of the spectrum.)

Not all cultures are equal, A’dam. Some do reasonably well at turning out responsible, well-adjusted children. Others do not. That’s a FACT.

"If I say that Arab/Islam is a sick and dysfunctonal culture/religion filled with marginal macho men and primitive behaviors, which is my opinion, you can call me racist too".

No, that in itself isn't racist. Ignorant and closed-minded, yes, but not really racist. How you react in your day-to-day encounters with actual Arabs and Muslims, however, may or may not be a different story.

Incidentally, how did you come to your opinion of Arabs/Islam? Through a thorough reading of the full spectrum of writings on those cultures and an unbiased engagement with actual Arabs and Muslims, I presume?

I have a funny feeling the whole"welfare for life" model that exists in Ontario is going to come crashing down in the very near future. The economy is going to hell, trawna is flirting with insolvency, and I think the pendulum is going to swing hard to the right. Ontario may appear to be center-left, but that was when it was flush with cash. We shall see how generous the 905'ers are to career criminals and punks when they see their provincial taxes rise and rise. As Dylan so eloquently said, "the times they are a changing"

A'dam, like your response to me, your response to penny also appears to be ill informed, arrogant, and juvenile.

Do you not pay any attention to BEHAVIOURS? You should try: they provide a lot of interesting facts about people and cultures.

Where are the eugenicists of the utopian left when you need a solution to this type of human misery?

Why are we feeding this troll Adam???

If you argue that no human culture is superior to another....

And believe evolution is the singular force in the creation and advancement of mankind ...

You might be a leftist.

lookout: A'dam, are you from Jamaica? (Just joking . . .)

As it happens, yes I am. My parents were born and raised in Kingston; I was born there, but raised and schooled (public system) in Toronto's northwest end. We're all Canadian citizens now, and while like many immigrants, we started behind the economic curve, we've done alright for ourselves. My folks are retired and still married, my dad eventually earned an MBA, my mum is a homemaker, my sister is a concert-level cellist, and I have an combined MBA/LLB. Not a single arrest between the four of us, not even detention after class. We were exposed to a strong Jamaican culture, both within our household and among our social networks, and still we turned out as responsible and well-adjusted.

I mention all this not out of pride, but merely to illustrate that to speak in crass over-generalizations means you're always at least a little bit wrong (and usually a lot more than that). Resorting to "conversational shorthand," to use Kathy's deceptively benign euphemism, is but an excuse to intentional indulge one's xenophobic and prejudicial impulses. You will say that, "Well obviously, I didn't mean that all Jamaican families turn out irresponsible, maladjusted kids," as though this concession -- that, essentially, we are an exception to a general rule -- somehow proves your generosity and tolerance. Well, our family is not unique; the vast majority of the Jamaican community in Toronto, like every other cultural group, are hard-working and law-abiding folks. Once difference is that not all groups face the same sort of casual racism and discrimination, of which many comments on this thread are tragically typical examples.

I don't deny the importance of personal/familial responsibility for one's actions, but structural discrimination and anti-social behaviour are part of the same vicious cycle.

"If I say that Arab/Islam is a sick and dysfunctional culture/religion filled with marginal macho men and primitive behaviors, which is my opinion, you can call me racist too".

I was working at a factory in Toronto (electrical contractor), where the vast majority of the employees are immigrant muslims, on 9/11. If you had seen the people cheering and the jubilant celebrations of those people when the planes hit the towers you would hate Muslims. you would understand that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim and you would be scared for the future of your children and your country. If you didn't feel like that you would be a deluded fool.

Kate: If you argue that no human culture is superior to another....

I'm not arguing that no human culture is superior to another, I'm rejecting your entire premise as specious. As with many aspects of humanity, cultures are too complex to be collapsed and rank-ordered along any single variable like "increasing superiority."

Again, Kate, why don't you state your position more directly, rather than through oblique rhetoric? You seem to be inching towards something along the lines of "_________ culture is superior to _________ culture." Care to fill in the blanks?

@A'dam (7:48 PM):

Stereotypes tend to emerge/strengthen in a multicultural society when members of each cultural group get rid of their troublemakers by sending them to another group. FYI.

A'dam has a serious chip on his shoulder, I for one do not believe him, he has an agenda to push and this is his forum.

Or put another way, quit worrying about what others are saying, and start taking responsibility for your own. What my children, brothers, or for that matter cousins do reflects directly on me, positive or negative. I will not hesitate to give a family member a slap in the head if they embarrass the family. It may be a little on the knuckledragging side of things, but it works for me. Maybe a few others should try it as well

Western culture is superior to Islamic culture, obviously.

A'dam the civilized world has no place for moral relativism.

We've spent alot of time on little mikie who pretty much admits he's a criminal and a wash out as a human being. The blight that's within this society are the people that allow him to stay. The same people who are afraid to admit the propensity of Jamaicans or Canadians of Jamaican descent to commit crimes and are also afraid to confront it. David Miller is one not so extraordinary example of this type of person. There are unfortunately many more who blame Mike Harris' policies a decade ago and simply won't deal with the real problem. Deporation, shooting or locking them up is the only option to deal with these criminals. I think its about time for a prison colony on Hans' Island.

Fenris rocks by the way!

DDT:

"prison colony on Hans' Island"

Them thar is fightin' words!! Nobody messess with Hans' Island. You may just get a Canadian Huns(TM) welcome, like a large lump of coal in your shoes.

Christmas Operations will not be compromised under any circumstances.

By order of

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht BGS, PDP, CFP

Commander in Chief

Frankenstein Battalion

2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden (Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)

Knecht Rupprecht Division

Hans Corps

1st Saint Nicolaas Army

Army Group “True North”

"structural discrimination and anti-social behaviour are part of the same vicious cycle."
A'dam

So Scarborough/Jane Finch, must be 80% structurally discriminating against only Jamaicans, to earn the kind of gun play their Jamaican's cycle through.

Neat trick.
Do you have one to write off Jamaican on Jamaican murder in Jamaica?

A'dam from my perspective I am sorry to say that the Jamaican community has shown a profound lack of respect for Canadian institutions and values.

The issue of Jamaican gang violence and the lack of cooperation with authorities by the Jamaican community at large to solve these matters is deeply disturbing.

The root cause of this violence is the Family Dysfunction within the Jamaican community - single mothers raising multiple children by multiple fathers is an abysmal cultural practice.

These issues did not arise as a result of some bogeyman called structural discrimination. They are the result of personal choices. Choices that have become acceptable standards of behavior within the Jamaican community. This behavior did not magically happen to Jamaicans on arrival in Canada, rather I suggest they were imported norms.

From the Unicef report "Parenting in Jamaica"

"According to UNICEF's 2000 Situation Assessment and Analysis of Jamaican Children and their Families, most Jamaican children are born while their parents are in a common-law or "visiting" relationship, but nearly half of these relationships have ended by the time child is five or six years old."

Link: http://www.unicef.org/jamaica/parenting_corner.html

I believe it was the "Year of the Gun" when one of the Toronto papers published the photos of all of those murdered by gunfire in Toronto (either that, or photos of those arrested, I can't remember which). Here is a quick summary of what I saw:

- black guy, black guy, black guy, white guy, black guy, black guy, black guy, asian guy, black guy, black guy, black guy, etc. and ad nauseum.

The overwhelming majority of murders are black on black murder and, according to ex-police chiefs and law enforcement folks the problem is in the Jamaican community.

If I recognize that and repeat the FACTS, I am not racist, I am simply observant. Are all Jamaicans bad...of course not. But when it comes to murder in Toronto, I suspect that they account for well over 50% of the murders. So, whether or not it is lazy or racist, I will say "Jamaicans are a problem".

Now, A'dam would prefer me to say "An overwhelming majority of Jamaicans in Toronto are not a problem" and he is, technically, correct. However, it would also be technically correct (though likely grammatically poor) to say that "An overwhelming, massive, gigantic majority of every other race and ethnic group in Toronto (except Jamaicans) are not a problem".

There...is that better now?

Just curious, A'dam, let's see if I've got your bio straight, you live in Amsterdam(from an earlier thread on the Netherland's problems), you're Jamaican from a distinguished family by your admission....any more stuff to add as the topics change here on Kate's site?

A'dam wrote, "I mention all this [his family's and his own commendable achievements] not out of pride, but merely to illustrate . . . "

Be proud, A'dam, and well done! (And I was quite clear about acknowledging that there are responsible, fine people from Jamaica.)

I think, though, we were talking about the ones who aren't—who are responsible for serious mayhem and murder in Toronto—and the failure of the present authority structures in this country to deal effectively with them, starting with ineffective families and schools.

Re the badly behaved to criminal elements in the Jamaican culture mentioned above, you've sidestepped both my questions:

"Might it [your hypothesis that black miscreants are unfairly targeted in the schools] have anything to do with their BEHAVIOUR?" and

"Do you actually WANT irresponsible, unintelligent, and semi to full juvenile delinquents to be let off the hook?"

I'd be interested in your staying on topic here and actually answering these not unimportant questions.

blazingcatfur, very well said, indeed! Thanks.

I propose that A'dam is a typical troll, one of those little games players that are whatever he wants to make of himself to fit the thread that he's caught in at the moment.

Sorry, but, being in Amsterdam for one thread, then, being Jamaican in this one is just too convenient.

Interesting how even on what is supposedly a conservative site people tend to blame external factors for the high rate of Jamaican crime. From "IQ and the wealth of nations":
Average Canadian IQ - 97
Average Jamaican IQ - 72
Someone with an IQ of 72 is not going to get far in a modern society. Combine a low IQ with high self confidence (black males have been found to be much more self-confident than white males) and you end up with situations like you see in Toronto now.

A simple IQ test for all prospective immigrants would be a great way to prevent the importation of third world lifestyles.

Texas Canuck said …………. legal fees, court costs, incarceration expenses, probation officer's wages, immigration lawyers, welfare and that top notch free medical care?

Precisely, as the common and well known phrase goes ‘follow the money’. This is precisely why any foreign criminal will live long and prosper in Canada. The list notes every freeloading enabler that need this to happen, its in their interest.

loki: A simple IQ test for all prospective immigrants would be a great way to prevent the importation of third world lifestyles.

Wow. Just...wow. loki, I say this with absolute and utter sincerity: I really, really hope PM Harper adopts your policy proposal.

Penny: Sorry, but, being in Amsterdam for one thread, then, being Jamaican in this one is just too convenient.

Oh, Penny. Not that I feel any overwhelming need to prove anything to you, you might want to note that I first mentioned living in Amsterdam some time before that "thread on the Netherland's problems." So, either my, um, trolling skills are so finely honed that I can presage future thread topics and establish false "credentials" ahead of time, or you're being paranoid. I'm OK with whichever you decide.

Eeyore: So, whether or not it is lazy or racist...

Why choose? You might not be your intention, but a careless statement may very well be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as racist.

But you know that, don't you? Which is why, when you're out in public, say, on a bus at rush-hour, and you're within earshot of twenty strangers -- including, to give this hypothetical scenario extra vividness, a young black couple, minding their own business -- you wouldn't dare turn to your travel companion and, in the course of your casual conversation about crime in your city, state simply, in your normal speaking volume, that "Jamaicans are a problem."

Blazingcatfur: A'dam the civilized world has no place for moral relativism.

It's no place for "cultural absolutism" either, whether of the paternalistic or oppressive kind. Let's not forget that while the "civilized world" ushered in many, many positive developments, it was responsible for perpetuating the African slave trade, the White Australia policy, Aboriginal residential school systems, the Chinese Immigration Acts, etc. All of these actions, now near-universally condemned as discriminatory and ill-conceived, were at their times seen as completely justified, since the notion that "our" culture was superior to "theirs" was considered self-evident.

lookout: "Might it [your hypothesis that black miscreants are unfairly targeted in the schools] have anything to do with their BEHAVIOUR?" and "Do you actually WANT irresponsible, unintelligent, and semi to full juvenile delinquents to be let off the hook?"

Blazingcatfur: The root cause of this violence is the Family Dysfunction within the Jamaican community - single mothers raising multiple children by multiple fathers is an abysmal cultural practice. These issues did not arise as a result of some bogeyman called structural discrimination. They are the result of personal choices. Choices that have become acceptable standards of behavior within the Jamaican community. This behavior did not magically happen to Jamaicans on arrival in Canada, rather I suggest they were imported norms.

You both seem to be raising the same issue, so I'll address it together.

On your two questions, lookout, my short answers are "Yes, at least in part" and "No, of course not." But I will elaborate.

First, let me be clear, so that I'm not later accused of simply "writing off" personal responsibility and choice. Individual delinquent behaviour is indeed a problem, and that if any individual (black, white, asian, male, female...) commits a crime or otherwise breaks a rule, then they ought to face the full consequences of that transgression. I stress "individual" here because one can legitimately view the problem at multiple levels simultaneously. And at the individual level (e.g., when we talk about Mr. Beckford specifically), I believe that everyone should be held responsible for their own choices.

So, let us agree that individual-level delinquent behaviour is a problem. Like myself, you are both searching for the "root causes" of this behaviour, which takes us away from the level of the individual. You yourselves find the root causes in "Jamaican culture," which you've characterized as including a "lack of initiative and responsibility" and "family dysfunction" (single motherhood + fatherhood with multiple partners) -- all of which you believe have become "acceptable standards of behaviour" among Jamaicans.

I don't deny that these patterns of behaviour are problematic. However, I don't think they're the sole root causes, and indeed, I don't think that "culture" is the root cause at all (particularly when the characteristics of that culture are conveniently defined by "us" rather than "them"). As I said earlier, individual choice and structural factors are irreducibly linked, with the former constrained and shaped by the latter (and vice versa, over longer periods of time). Again, it's not one or the other, it's both.

So, while we can -- and should -- hold individual black delinquents responsible for their actions, we can -- and should -- simultaneously examine the constraints that "black communities" faces at the structural level.

Blazingcatfur, it's interesting that you cited the UNICEF report. It offers a good illustration of a more balanced perspective that I'd advocating for. So, while it acknowledges individual behaviour choices (parenting style, poor communication, unsafe sex practises leading to HIV contraction and early parenthood), it also acknowledges some of the structural discriminations that I referred to earlier:

"Many single parent households face specific social and economic challenges for both the parent and the children...High rates of migration, which are partially in response to declining social and economic prospects, have contributed to the weakening of the family and community support structures. Many parents leave the island in order to seek employment overseas. Often children are left with inadequate guidance and protection...[HIV-positive] Children and their parents may also suffer from stigma and discrimination from the community and the wider society."

Similar economic and social factors are at play among Jamaican communities in Canada; they are not merely "some bogeyman." It's indeed a vicious web, involving economic marginalization, limited life choices, poor personal choices, delinquent and anti-social behaviour, discriminatory sanctions, etc. etc. Trying to lay the "root cause" blame at any one level is playing chicken-and-egg.

Solutions? Too complex for this thread, of course. Yes, I think parents need to take responsibility for their children, and the children themselves, as they mature into adults, need to take responsibility for themselves. But, the onus should not be entirely on the Jamaican community either, since the structural contributors implicate the entire wider society. So, while paternalistic handouts are not the solution either, we collectively should not shirk our share of responsibility, which includes at the very least acknowledging, and condemning, instances of discrimination and prejudice when and where they occur.

Also, further to the "culture" argument, in the mid-1800s, criminal arrests in Toronto disproportionately involved Irish immigrants. At the time, the wider community blamed it on "Irish culture," which was deemed by social reformers as inherently lazy, ungrateful, unintelligent, and violent. A few decades later, it was the Chinese labourers who were targeted, their "Asiatic culture" derided as primitive, immoral, perverted, unhygienic, unassimilable. Ditto Jewish communities. And so on...

Sure, at the individual level, those who committed crimes deserved the punishments they got (though we also now know that not all groups received equal punishments for equal crimes), but if we step back and look at the wider picture, it's interesting to note that the Irish (Chinese, Jewish) communities in their times occupied the same economically marginalized, "second-tier" social status as the Jamaican communities do now. So maybe those structural arguments carry some explanatory value after all. And it's also interesting that your current criticisms of Jamaican culture echoes quite closely those of the social reformers at the time, who lamented the deplorable "acceptable standards of behaviour" considered inherent to "Irish culture."

A question for you, lookout: Do you believe these Toronto social reformers in the 1800s were correct in their assessment of "Irish culture" as being inherently lazy, ignorant, delinquent, belligerent, etc.?

A'dam, this is a comment thread for a personal blog. On such comment threads, a great many things are discussed and written that would never be discussed in polite society...politics, religion, sexuality, dog breeding (just kidding, Kate!), etc.

So your rhetorical question to me was, of course, something that would be answered in the negative. I dislike Liberals and I HATE the memory of PET (spit!) but I would never discuss my dislike of Liberals when in public with them...it is impolite.

But by the same token, I am not going to pretend, in private conversations such as this, that problems do not exist just because the problems exist with one identifiable segment of society.

As you asked, were/are the Irish unreformable? No!

Were/are the Germans unreformable? No!

Were/are the Japanese unreformable? No!

Were/are the Dutch unreformable? Er, um, uh...No?

Are Jamaicans unreformable? No!

Are the Irish, Germans, Japanese and Dutch(*) problems now? No! Are Jamaicans a problem now? Yes!

Ergo, Jamaicans are a problem and they need to be "fixed"...then they can be removed from my list of people I don't like and join everyone else in the world except me on my list of people I don't particularly care for. I'm not racist, I'm antisocial! ;)

(*) "Wooden shoes, wooden head, wouldn' listen"...I love that old saying! Kidding!!

A'dam said;
Blazingcatfur, it's interesting that you cited the UNICEF report. It offers a good illustration of a more balanced perspective that I'd advocating for. So, while it acknowledges individual behaviour choices (parenting style, poor communication, unsafe sex practises leading to HIV contraction and early parenthood), it also acknowledges some of the structural discriminations that I referred to earlier:

A'dam you miss my point. You mentioned the bogeyman of structural discrimination as if this this existed in Canada to begin with and was a creation of Canadian society.

I pointed out that the abysmal norms of behavior found in Jamaican culture are imported- as in home grown. If you insist on structural discrimination as a cause by all means address it- in Jamaica, not here.

I am sure there are positive aspects to Jamaican culture A'dam, just as there are to be found anywhere, but we are talking about more important issues here, crime and family dysfunction, which unfortunately are the cultural hallmarks of the Jamaican community most prominently on display and most negatively impact the community which welcomed them with open arms.

A'dam you're attempt to link the immigrant experience of the Irish et al simply doesn't wash. You cannot compare the experiences of recent immigrants i.e Jamaicans, to a 19th century event. The Irish of the 19th century had no access to even a fraction of the resources currently available to immigrants and we turned out Ok, by the way we do like to drink- alot;) Surely you don't suggest that recent immigrants have been denied resources & opportunity?

Adam said;

"Blazingcatfur: A'dam the civilized world has no place for moral relativism.

It's no place for "cultural absolutism" either, whether of the paternalistic or oppressive kind. Let's not forget that while the "civilized world" ushered in many, many positive developments, it was responsible for perpetuating the African slave trade, the White Australia policy, Aboriginal residential school systems, the Chinese Immigration Acts, etc. All of these actions, now near-universally condemned as discriminatory and ill-conceived, were at their times seen as completely justified, since the notion that "our" culture was superior to "theirs" was considered self-evident."

A'dam I stand by my position on moral relativism. Your attempt to link criticism of the Jamican community with cultural absolutism via the examples you cite is called moral equivalence- that's another piety of the PC canon the civilized worls has no place for;)

A'dam, it seems that your response makes a real attempt to be thoughtful, but, if I were grading your work, I'd require you to tighten up the arguments, provide concrete examples and details vs generalizations, and stay on topic.

E.g., A'dam, re your smokescreen question to me about the Irish in the 1800s: apples and oranges, my boy.

My ancestors were actually here then and were both Irish AND social reformers: they most certainly didn't see the Irish as hopeless cases--and they set high standards. Keep in mind, there was no easy-to-come-by-for-no-personal-cost social safety net. The Irish who came here endured gargantuan hardships both in transit and for years, if not decades after arrival--not at all the experience of the criminal Jamaican freeloaders we're discussing here. And my ancestors' expectations for their fellow Irish were proven correct. Whatever the culture, it was not the mess that the Jamaican culture of fatherless families/entitled, wayward youth is today--and has been for generations.

Re the Irish, after a generation or two over here, the majority worked hard--they had little choice if they didn't want to live in misery--prospered, and profited Canadian society in many ways.

Quite rightly, the less effective individuals of the immigrant cultures you note were not propped up by a welfare state and a subversive Charter that ENABLES the anti-social behaviour of irresponsible AND entitled miscreants.

You answer my question about accountability and say you agree that individuals should be held to account: good. However, as I and others have pointed out over and over, accountability ain't happening. Too many in the Jamaican community, itself, as well as the authority structures in this country have refused to call it like it is. What do you think of this double-edged abdication of responsibility?

Instead, you say, "So, while we can -- and should -- hold individual black delinquents responsible for their actions, we can -- and should -- simultaneously examine the constraints that 'black communities' faces at the structural level." Then you move on to another topic.

I contend that the constraints to which you refer have everything to do with the myriad of poor choices endemic to the Jamaican family structure, both here and in Jamaica AND with Canada's welfare state and mentality, which provide a haven for n'er do wells.

Solutions: There are two main ones, both of which will be very difficult to effect.

1) Jamaicans, themselves, have to change the way they "do business". The high degree of entitlement, along with the low degree of expectations (both in their own community and of the PC flunkies in our public institutions--e.g., schools and courts), re family structure, education, and logical thinking (trying to deal reasonably with some of the mothers of my students was an exercise in frustration and futility) are all very serious structural problems.

Unless the Jamaican community is willing to own these problems, which means clearly naming them and NOT blaming everyone but themselves, matters will go from bad to worse. (And it is the Jamaican faith communities, not the Julian Falconers, which should be enlisted to work on this.)

2) Political correctness has got to go and, along with it, the ludicrous reality--Charter driven: thanks, Bertha Wilson--that anyone whose foot touches Canadian soil has almost unlimited "rights". The social and political assumptions of the left-wing cabals that run this country have to be challenged and changed.

Immigration laws need to be overhauled: unless there's very good reason, people who will only drain our resources should be denied entry. Wait times to become landed or a citizen should be extended: if the person has criminal convictions, send that person back to whence he/she came--pronto. Review the "family reunification" guidelines: for sure, restrict the number of dependent and/or non productive relations who may arrive here on the coattails of one person.

And then there's the CHARTER. That document has been the cause of more social breakdown in this country than almost any other factor, as it promotes self-referential, entitled behaviour, always at the expense of accountability and responsibility.

The amending formula needed to change the Charter is so stringent that that route is pretty well closed off. So, it's up to our ELECTED politicians to wrest power from the UNELECTED lawmakers in this country--our judges--by using the notwithstanding clause (Section 33 of the Charter) to uphold the laws which our ELECTED representatives have duly voted on in our parliaments. (The idea that the notwithstanding clause is dangerous is a pernicious, left-wing myth and the exact opposite of the truth of the matter.)

Until the notwithstanding clause is appropriated, Canadian society will continue to be hijacked by small, anti-social groups, e.g., badly behaved, minority status school children to criminal Jamaican gangs, aided and abetted by our judicial overlords, almost with impunity.

A'dam, this problem is certainly not all in the hands of Jamaican Canadians. Our political elites also have dirty hands. All of them need to smarten up. (Unlike you, however, I'm pretty clear sighted about the shortcomings of "my" group, which has wrongly promoted the Charter. I make no excuses for them. These people are wrong headed sycophants and toadies, not to mention subversives. Their thoughts and actions have seriously undermined the good order and stability of Canadian society and I think it's high time for the rest of us to say, "ENOUGH!" and take back our country.)

Re the Julian (impeccable, left-wing credentials) Falconer Inquiry, given an extension, at how many extra $$, I wonder: I have very little confidence that it will provide more than platitudes and bromides. Wouldn't it be nice if I'm wrong?

Bravo lookout! Well said indeed. Thank you.

A'dam I will give credit for sticking around. My opinion is that this thread represents the best possible means of addressing the issues raised. A no holds barred, all the cards on the table, dump the PC pieties, frank exchange.

This is the point Kathy, myself and others such as Canadian Observer & lookout are trying to make.
Free Speech is Hard A'dam - but it gets things done. Politically Correct BS is both harmful and stupid and if anything best represents the concept of of Structural Discrimination you cite.

You're most welcome, blazingcatfur. And ditto re your fine, incisive comments!

...don't worry, be happy

doooododoo dooo de dooo...la la la lala...

don't worry, be happy....

Blazingcatfur: A'dam you miss my point...I pointed out that the abysmal norms of behavior found in Jamaican culture are imported- as in home grown. If you insist on structural discrimination as a cause by all means address it- in Jamaica, not here.

Actually, you missed my point, which is that structural issues exist everywhere -- in Jamaica, in Canada, in the past and in the present. They differ to some extent depending on the context, but there are also more universal structural issues such as economic barriers, imbalances in political and social power, status hierarchies, and the like. And there's no doubt that Jamaicans face multiple forms of discrimination in Canada.

...we are talking about more important issues here, crime and family dysfunction, which unfortunately are the cultural hallmarks of the Jamaican community most prominently on display and most negatively impact the community which welcomed them with open arms.

That's the difference between us (but do correct me if I'm wrong). You speak about high crime rates and family dysfunction, along with lack of initiative and denial of personal responsibility, as though they're inherent and inseparable characteristics of "Jamaican culture." The assumption is that the existence of one inexorably implies the existence of the other. In other words, the culture itself is the problem -- no wonder, then, that you require the culture itself to change. I acknowledge that these problems of crime and family dysfunction exist in the community, but that they're not an inevitable component of Jamaican life. We disagree, fundamentally, on what it means to be Jamaican.

Which is why my reference to earlier generations of Irish and Asian immigrants stands. I'm not saying that their immigrant experiences are the same as those of Jamaicans today. I'm saying that your belief (that lack of responsibility and initiative, etc. are inherent "cultural hallmarks" of Jamaicans) repeats the same formulaic assumptions as the social reformers of the past. At that time, those who held anti-Irish sentiments truly believed that laziness, irresponsibility, etc. were inherent "cultural hallmarks" of the Irish. Likewise, those who held anti-Asian sentiments in the early 1900s truly believed that licentiousness, deviousness, etc. were inherent "cultural hallmarks" of the Chinese. Yet, in the time since, neither Irish nor Chinese cultures have fundamentally changed; they did not expunge laziness, deviousness, and the rest from their cultural practises -- because they weren't 'cultural' to begin with.

Your attempt to link criticism of the Jamican community with cultural absolutism via the examples you cite is called moral equivalence

Again, you miss my point. I'm not saying that your criticisms of the Jamaican community are morally equivalent to policies like White Australia and the Chinese Immigrant Acts. Rather, I'm simply pointing out that they share a similar underlying assumption: "The Other's culture is inferior to Ours." Do you not hold this view? That, on balance, "Canadian culture" is somehow superior to "Jamaican culture"?

lookout, a question for you: Is there any requirement in your proposed solution for you to change your attitudes or way of thinking in any way?

I ask because it seems like you expect everyone else to change, to essentially adopt your way of thinking. As far as I can tell, your proposal calls for:

- Jamaicans to change (by accepting personal responsibility for their community's problems)
- society to change (by abandoning "PC talk," for example)
- policies to change (by revamping the immigration system, for example)
- the Constitution to change (by drastically amending the Charter)
- political elites to change (by "smartening up," whatever that entails)
- (white? non-Jamaican?) lefties to change (by no longer "promoting the Charter," renouncing their "wrong-headed, subversive, toadish, sycophant" ways, refraining from "undermining the good order and stability of society," and allowing you to "take back your country").

So, while it seems that everyone and everything under the moon must get their act together, you're awfully silent on your own role in all this. Could it be that -- ironically enough -- you're trying to shirk your share of responsibility? No, that couldn't be it -- you're all about taking ownership and personal responsibility.

So I ask again, lookout: Is there any requirement in your proposed solution for you to change your attitudes or way of thinking in any way?

Eeyore: A'dam, this is a comment thread for a personal blog...I am not going to pretend, in private conversations such as this, that problems do not exist just because the problems exist with one identifiable segment of society.

A personal blog, yes, but a public -- not private -- one. This is ergo not a private conversation. But you (and I) can treat it like one because you (and I) choose to post anonymously, and therefore unaccountably.

I would never discuss my dislike of Liberals when in public with them...it is impolite.

Impolite, yes, but also costly. You risk stares of disapproval, being heckled, a potential punch in the nose, etc.

Those same risks are not present here, despite it also being a public space of sorts, because one is anonymous. And so one can be as impolite as one wishes, knowing that there are no consequences, like a punch to the nose, to worry about.

I wonder, Eeyore, whether you'd still be willing to say, outright and without qualifiers, that "Jamaicans are a problem" if you were actually accountable for your words -- say, if your photo appeared beside your post, or you had to sign off each comment with your real name.

Well for once, A'dam, I can altogether agree with you re what I'd like to see changed: yup, it's all the things I've mentioned and which you reference. Why? Because the present situation in Canada doesn't help either Jamaican (and other), parasitic n'er do wells or the rest of society.

For the record, young man, I've already done and continue to do my share--and maybe even more than my share. Among many other positive contributions I've made to our society, I pay exorbitant amounts of tax and I've taught my very challenged Jamaican/Canadian students diligently and with a high degree of success. I demonstrated my respect for them--often not reciprocated by either them or their single moms--by setting high expectations, giving the required support, and expecting that those expectations to be met. By all accounts, both behaviourally and academically, these boys made fine gains in my classes.

Your altogether inadequate response--off topic again and ad hominem--to my very legitimate concerns is, frankly, most disrespectful. (You did say you were from Jamaica, after all. Touche!) I've expended all the energy I'm willing to in order to deal with your juvenile meanderings.

Good afternoon, A'dam, and you might actually give some thought to the changes I'd like to see. If you should then actually have any intelligent analysis, I'd consider responding. Good luck.

Who commits 99% of the serious and violent crime in Toronto (murder, assaults, rape, home invasion, etc.)? We should stop all immigration from the islands because it only adds to our growing problem in Toronto and other big cities (recently, four Caribbeans went on a stabbing spree in Calgary, killing one and injuring four others). We don't need this kind of crap in Canada. We have enough problems of our own.

Solution is simple; fire the Judge (probably a Liberal patronage appointee) and toughen up the justice and immigration systems.

Scum like this no matter where they are from, must be deported immediately.....or else sent to huge prisons in the Arctic where these wastrels can be housed indefinitely!

Enough of this politically correct, touchy feely, do-gooder crap that I end up paying for!

A'dam said:

"Actually, you missed my point, which is that structural issues exist everywhere -- in Jamaica, in Canada, in the past and in the present. They differ to some extent depending on the context, but there are also more universal structural issues such as economic barriers, imbalances in political and social power, status hierarchies, and the like. And there's no doubt that Jamaicans face multiple forms of discrimination in Canada."

No A'dam the Jamican community cannot rely on the unlimited goodwill nor on the unlimited patience of the Canadian public. It is their responsibility to fix their culture. It is not my responsiblity to foot the bill for the Jamaican communities failings. Stop inventing bogeymen A'dam and please stop quoting from left wing social worker 101, it really is tiresome. From family & personal responsibilty rises community responsibilty.

A'dam said:

"That's the difference between us (but do correct me if I'm wrong). You speak about high crime rates and family dysfunction, along with lack of initiative and denial of personal responsibility, as though they're inherent and inseparable characteristics of "Jamaican culture."

I do and they are and you know the reasons I have provided. Jamaican culture is dysfunctional, it may change A'dam - we can hope. To state otherwise would be a falsehood. As for personal initiative, I have made no such reference, do not put words in my mouth. The difference between us is that I speak in a forthright manner, without the need to fall back PC pieties;)

Do you not hold this view? That, on balance, "Canadian culture" is somehow superior to "Jamaican culture"?

Not on balance A'dam, but in near totality, based on the degree of havoc wrought by familial dysfunction within the Jamaican community.

Some cultures are superior to that hillbilly, rural, redneck culture that produced the illiterate Kate McMillan or Kathy Shaidle's pederastic Catholic culture that gives us many more failed human beings than poor little Jamaica ever could.

Which cultures would those be? Discuss. And don't you leftists go all "politically correct on me." Kate hates that.

Some cultures are superior to that hillbilly, rural, redneck culture that produced the illiterate Kate McMillan or Kathy Shaidle's pederastic Catholic culture that gives us many more failed human beings than poor little Jamaica ever could.

Which cultures would those be? Discuss. And don't you leftists go all "politically correct on me." Kate hates that.

Minion must be a social worker;0

There is only one answer to these hateful comments:

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

A'dam said:
"Actually, you missed my point, which is that structural issues exist everywhere ...

I would immediately stop reading anything containing the phrase in bold. It's empty bureauspeak. Saves a lot of time. Same for "systemic", et al. And people who use these phrases are a'utomatons talking by rote. Without exception. The end.

You are right MND which is why I asked him to stop quoting from "Left Wing Social Worker 101". Meaningless tripe of that nature is at its worst simply a PC face saving attempt to shift responsibility or more accurately shift blame, at its least toxic it is an attempt to obscure an argument and shift the goal posts.

I thought this thread would have died by now, so haven't checked in a while.

A'dam, you're just lost, buddy. You seem to think that the world will be a better place if people are afraid to speak their mind.

I said what I believe...that it is impolite to discuss some things in public. If it were discussed in public, what you suggest would happen might happen...true enough. So, I guess you think that might is right, eh? The sword is truly mightier than the pen, eh?

Be careful, A'dam...if you talk in PC-code in front of a bunch of freedom-loving "rednecks", they may make fun of you! Grow yourself some manhood, Mr. Plain Vanilla.

Your motto must be "I have no opinion about anything or anyone lest someone hurts me"...or how about "Be thee cowed in submission to fear".

I can't say it any plainer than this...I would hold nothing against Jamaicans if they weren't responsible for the majority of the violent crimes in Toronto. Reduce their violent tendencies down to match that of the general public and I would think of them just like I do anybody else.

Sorry, I forgot one thing...in your scenario, I wouldn't be AFRAID of physical attack as a result of my verbally degrading a bunch of Liberals...I'd be afraid of the Liberal's mommies and daddies coming to slap me, or their surrogate parents (the "State") putting me in jail for "hurting their poor widdle feewings".

And, statistically-speaking, Jamaicans would be more likely to shoot me anyway, not punch me in the nose, so there'd be no pain from chastising them either. Kidding!! But I forget...unless I'm black, I can't joke about blacks...those are the "rules" of PC-ness, don't ya know.

Say what you want now, A'dam...I'm done with this tripe.

Nice antidotes to the tripe, as Eeyore says, on this thread have lately come from Eeyore, bcf, MND, Keesha and Werner Patels. Merci.

And I apologize for my last, somewhat long-winded post. I should just have said, "There's no reason to change because I'm not the problem."

Have a good day, all of you!

lookout: I should just have said, "There's no reason to change because I'm not the problem."

Ironically enough, that's also precisely what you accuse the Jamaican community of thinking.

Here's an interesting link to a post from The Big Carnival.

Jamaica to UK: Pay Us Slave Reparations!

It does discuss, among other issues, the ascendancy of "Dance Hall Values" in Jamaican culture as decried by the middle class.

http://bigcarnival.blogspot.com/2007/05/jamaica-to-uk-pay-us-slave-reparations.html

There are opinions and there are FACTS. FACT: I'm not the problem being discussed on this thread.

As a society, the inability to discern between facts and opinions has and is causing serious problems. Idiots, with their heads in either the clouds or the sand, believe that their small-minded opinions, based on nothing but thin air, are owed equal weight with verifiable fact.

This sophistry isn't going to take us anywhere good. And, unfortunately, such practioners as Avi Lewis and certain posters at SDA don't have either the discernment or humility to recognize their poverty of thought. Too bad for all of us.

lookout: FACT: I'm not the problem being discussed on this thread.

So it's now a fact that you're not the problem, and have no need to change your attitudes or views in any way? Are you certain of that? How certain? Would you be willing to admit to, say, your priest or your boss that you believe that "not all cultures are equal"? That "some do reasonably well at turning out responsible, well-adjusted children [while] others [i.e., Jamaican] do not"?

My bet, lookout, is that you feel free to espouse these opinions and "facts" here ONLY because the internet offers you the safety of anonymity. But were that lack of accountability to be stripped away, would you still be so willing to stand by your words? I highly doubt it.

A'dam please, and for the last time, there is no crime in stating that Jamaican culture is dysfuntional and citing familial dysfunction as the evidense to back that up. Some cultures are superior to others, not all cultures are equal, sorry to burst your fragile PC worldview. Your vacuous & repeated attempts to label anyone who expresses an opinion contrary to your own with the false and empty label of racism is pure PC bullying. You are attempting to stifle debate but it just ain't gonna work here.

Bcf: ;-)

80 years ago Ruthinians were considered the scouge of god. And they were white. We are all immigrants or decend from the same. We need to be tolerant that's what makes Canada a great country.

Response to ok4ua:
What makes Canada a great country today,
was the immigration that founded and built a free nation of laws and a social support for their descendants. A nation built from nothing but raw land without a guarantee of anything at all, then later fought and defended to the death. The founders offer was and is still open to all other peoples that wish to help support and improve on the countries hard earned existence. It was never intended to be used as a free meal and political toilet for the masses of “immigrants” tired of their own miserable existence in countries that they couldn’t be bothered to fight and fix for themselves. Much easier to parasite an existing economy filled with a dozy PC populous most of whom are embarrassed by their unique and precious inheritance (encouraged to feel that way).
So called minority groups, and “affirmative action” type committees prey on the weak PC individuals, they themselves making up what we can and cannot say in this free nation as they find obstacles to their own agendas. “Tolerance” is usually one of the first slogans slung as if somehow Canadians need to accept the violence, crime, and abuse of our social systems as simply a “cultural normality” by most of these freeloading criminals.
Tolerance meaning broadminded is indeed good for all nations, misplaced PC “tolerance” meaning lenience and charity for the worlds scum; is the ruin of all that still remains of Canada “The Great Country” and should not be accepted.