Harry Yawwwwwwwnnnn who? Is he the guy that keeps dropping books down my chimney every sixth day of every sixth month of every sixth year. If you run into him let him know that his books are inggreat kindling but the ash keeps block the flue.

I don't go to the movies.

That's because you live in the socialist republic of Sascratchinwin. Modern moving pictures aren't allowed there. There's no reason to go to the movies...

Oh wait... We were discussing the whole Harry Potter marketing gimmick... Well of course silly!

I don't go to the movies.

That's because you live in the socialist republic of Sascratchinwin. Modern moving pictures aren't allowed there. There's no reason to go to the movies...

Oh wait... We were discussing the whole Harry Potter marketing gimmick... Well of course silly!

...who's Harry Potter?

;-)

Oh, I know, Harry Potter is that Home Gardening Channel on CBC.

The purpose of Marketing is to get you to spend money that you otherwise wouldn't if you thought about it more carefully. Nevertheless, now that I've stopped reading newspapers because I'm tired of being yelled at, I need something else to read while breakfasting. I'm "in the market", as they say, for reading material.

When I consider the situation in terms of book-dollars spent per breakfast-hour (assuming a constant reading rate), highly fashionable books like new releases of trendy novels that cost on the order of tens of dollars each become expensive pretty fast (HP/7 is pre-selling for $22.50 at amazon.ca). I mean, the breakfast special at my favorite deli is only $4.50, so reading these trendy fashionable books would probably double my cost of having breakfast. Or to put it another way, that's three beers per day.

Ergo, pace marketing, yesterday morning at the used book store around the corner from my tobacconists I purchased 35 used paperback Perry Mason novels that the proprieter had arranged to acquire for me, for a total of $25, and they even came in a beautiful used corrugated cardboard box. A "boxed set", as they say. That works out to about 25 cents per breakfast, or about 1/6 beer per day, which I consider more reasonable.

This morning I started reading The Case of the Fan-Dancer's Horse.

[I mean, are they really this goddamned stupid?]

Yup. For awhile they also kept reporting on every new "alien" crop-circle found in a field.

If it sells dead trees it doesn't matter if the story is a fake, fraud, set-up or whatever. Milk it for what you can and then move on.

They cannot be em-bare-ass-ed into coming clean. Jurno school taught them that. No matter how outlandish, childish the topic --- not even so much as a smirk in public.

Kate, please don't waste valuable webspace on Harry Potter when there's so much more important things to discuss, like the latest news on Paris Hilton.

Harry Potter is an enemy of God and should be put to death! You don't make heros out of warlocks!

Becky Fischer agrees with me.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uOIYsGVyg8M

The whole thing is actually kinda humorous. My teenagers read them and curiosity caused me to read them. Nothing objectionable and the later books weren't that bad.

I got curious and searched the torrent sites recently. The so called leaks were obviously fan fiction generated except the jpeg version which does look factual (though nearly impossible to read). Surprisingly a couple of the fan fiction fakes were fairly good reading. Whoever generated them should look at brushing up their style and doing serious novel writing. I actually ordered the book for reasons of propriety and to see which I liked best. I'm seriously thinking I may have enjoyed one of the fan fiction fakes more than I will the actual Rowlings product.

I'm giddy waiting for Saturday morning. I'm coming home from a midnight shift, putting on several pots of home-brewed Starbucks elixir, and waiting for the delivery guy.

You're not suggesting all those news reports CNN used to do on upcoming Lord Of The Rings flics were actually promos resulting from the hyper-concentration of media, are you?

"Next, a very special episode of Paula Zahn as she discusses the summer's most anticipated blockbuster, Lord Of The Rings - Revenge of the Umpteenth Ringy-Dingy featuring Lily Tomlin. And later, Wolf Blitzer uncovers a plot to assassinate the president."

Damn folks, ease off. Anything that gets kids to read instead of being glued to the idiot box is a bonus. Were it up to me, Rowling would have a Nobel for literature.

Now to get kids outside actually playing.

the Michael Moore School of Market Manipulation, in action.

I totally agree with Jim. Millions of kids actually read this series, which I think is a real good read myself. Remember when all us old guys were kids we read the Tarzan series, Hardy Boys or even Nancy Drew among so many others and traded comic books. It all helped us to read as well as use our imaginations. Years ago late at night during a rain and wind storm at the cottage I was reading The Exorcist, couldn't finish it, far more scary than the movie. If marketing helps to make kids excited and want to read Harry Potter, great.

Always helps to confirm my opinion of religion when I see various pundits try to ban books like Potter or Lord of the Rings, linking the characters to religious dogmas. Dont they see that it reaffirms that religions are just a collection of myths and stories based on peoples imaginations!

Oh come on - I'm a great fan of the Harry Potter books. I mean that. I'm not going to be snobbish and deride them by saying 'at least they get the kids to read'. They are great reads in themselves. For adults. And I'm eagerly waiting for the new book on Saturday.

As for the leaks, I doubt if they are promotional. The books sell themselves; they don't need any publicity gimmicks.

I agree with Jim.

It's fun for kids - they get to imagine and read about magical and adventerous things - which is uncommon now adays - unfortunately.

... and ... good on Rowling for being successful.

Harry Potter is awesome. Period.

I am with you ET. Did not mean to come across as snobbish. I read the first one a few months ago. Bought the rest and will pick up the last one next week sometime. Will then sit down and do a marathon from the second one to the end.

After I read the Bartholomew Bandy books ;)

"Damn folks, ease off. Anything that gets kids to read instead of being glued to the idiot box is a bonus. Were it up to me, Rowling would have a Nobel for literature."

Harry Potter doesn't make kids more literate. That was debunked years ago: http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,710189,00.html

What Harry Potter has done is to get thousands of ADULTS reading BELOW their comprehension level. How this is a triumph of literacy is a mystery for me.

"I'm finding myself becoming quite irritated with the breathless media reports about the premature/accidental/clandestine release of every new book in the series"

Well, get a kid and have yourself tormented to be dragged to one of these movies. (HP is really stupid plot-wise...the Hardy boys had more plot construction)

Thank Gawd the kid grew out of these when he turned 8 and went to Tolkien (books) and now finds the whole HP series as stupid as I do.

If it seems hard to understand why such thin plot, 2 dimesional children's stories can be hyped as the end all and be all of child oriented literary genius and cinema art....just remember we're still in the waning era of corporate sleaze and mass media hyperbole.

The HP texts are bought before they are written, the movies are financed ( investors) before the screen rights are acquired....the hype is investor angst wanting returns on the tall dollar the HP industry took from them for speculating on the demand for another installment of the HP cult's favorite sub-par gruel....they are pushing the envelope of trend mongering and they know it...how long can this HP trend last?...is the market saturated with HP novelties?...is the public getting bored with the mediocrity of the HP dogma?

All questions that over extended HP investors have to ask themselves...thus the hype...and did you notice that with each HP installment being less creative or more mediocre than the previous the hype is turned up proportionately?

Ahhh ya gotta love mass media....it's still a refuge for human scum.

good heaven's, ellie in TO - do you seriously take anything the leftist Guardian spouts as the Truth?

First, an opinion remains an opinion and is not factual. The facts are - that millions of children are reading Harry Potter. That's one definition of 'being literate', ie, a willingness and ability to read.

If you are using the term to mean 'quality of literature' - that's subjective. I'll take Potter over many of the mystery novels in the bookstore anyday.

As for thousands of adults reading below their comprehension level - what a demeaning thing to say. Are you seriously suggesting that the only reading I'm allowed as a 'thinking adult', is weighty tomes on Aristotle, Pearce, Popper; papers in biology and physics and my regular journals such as Science, BioSystems, Theoretical Biology etc? Heck - as much a fan of the above as I am, life is more than prayer and obeisance. Music and laughter and fun are allowed.

Again - have you ever read any of the series in adult mysteries - which include Le Carre (I can't stand his cynicism, his sneers, his gloom); or Hiaison (same format in all books); even nice little reads such as those of Donna Leon and so on. These are 'light reads' - and what's wrong with them? I'll take Harry Potter as a 'light read' any day, any time.

I'm running out and buying two copies this weekend, one for me and one for my wife. As far as light reading goes, they're great, and they'll help put me to sleep on our upcoming 8 hour flight. Yeah, they're hyped, and marketed, and it's all over the top.

If the MSM isn't shilling for the Harry Potter vehicle, they're flooding us with the every move of Paris Hilton. Or Lindsey Lohan. Or some other idiot.

I love it when the people who do the 6 o'clock news put out commercials about how they're award winning, hard-hitting journalists. Ha ha! It's all pap, it's all Entertainment Tonight-like crappola for the whole "news" hour.

BTW, I loved the Hardy Boys books when I was a kid.

Well, this is a capitalist society, folks, and I thought you favoured that!

If I analysed the Harry Potter series politically, I'd have some serious criticisms but there are many good things in these books and I enjoy them. I will buy the book Saturday morning at 9:00 a.m. and spend the day reading it. I'm looking forward to it!

"good heaven's, ellie in TO - do you seriously take anything the leftist Guardian spouts as the Truth?"

The point isn't what the Guardian said, it's what the survey said: the first-ever scientific survey of the "Potter phenomenon." Its findings were that the mega-hyped claims of HP fostering literacy are bunk. Reading R. L. Stine's Goosebumps series didn't make kids magically literate either, though many at the time hoped it would.

"The facts are - that millions of children are reading Harry Potter. That's one definition of 'being literate', ie, a willingness and ability to read."

Again, millions of kids once read Goosebumps. And millions of adults are reading Danielle Steel. I don't look at an adult reading a Steel book and say, "Wow, thank goodness she's reading instead of watching Desperate Housewives!" What difference IS there between Danielle Steel and Desperate Housewives? Or between Harry Potter and Pokemon? This isn't literature, it's pop culture. PLEASE don't confuse the two.

WL Mackenzie: if you don't stop talking sense the Pottercops will come for you!! :)

"BTW, I loved the Hardy Boys books when I was a kid."

Exactly, Matt. When you were A KID.

"Well, this is a capitalist society, folks, and I thought you favoured that!"

The epitome of capitalism is Paris Hilton, but she still makes me want to be sick.

Great books. Brilliant marketing. I wish I had written them.

Why encourage kids to read fiction ?? What good does it do ?? Is it not similiar to listening to someone tell of their dreams ?

Fictional narratives can maybe help children build life skills. Maybe. But the wako authors can also lead kids to life in a fantasy world. The kids, sooner or later, will then have to learn the hard way about life in the real world.

Used books stores tell a real story. Seems that 90% of the books on the shelves are fiction. So, most of what we read is fiction, dreams, fibs or even outright lies.

IMO, our beloved media does enough of that already.

And then we wonder why the Japanese build better automobiles than we do.

ellie in TO. I think you are being a bit of a snob.

Because there's a claim that it is a 'scientific survey' doesn't mean that it is actually scientific. Haven't your learned skills taught you the difference between reality and a statement about reality? Hmm?

We can't all be learned and cultured. Some of us are just ordinary peasants - and we like to read, and read, and read - pop culture. I know that we should feel guilty; I know that we should admit that such diversions haven't increased our knowledge base, haven't honed our critical skills, but, they have relaxed and made our time enjoyable. And I'll take that any time.

No, the epitome of capitalism is not Paris Hilton. For you to say such a thing, makes me suspect you are a socialist, all keen and eager for the 'betterment' of the uncultured peasants around you.

The epitome of capitalism is companies that start from scratch, by individuals no matter their background - such as Dell, Blackberry, such as Ed Mirvish, such as yes, Microsoft, and Trump and the others who have been able to take an innovative idea, and move into the market because they have something of value to the population.

Again, I don't think that the Potter books require any underhand marketing; they stand on their own. They are fun, they are relaxing, they are filled with characters and behaviour that are recognizable, not only to kids in school, but to adults in the workplace. And there's no need to be a 'culture snob' and insist they are beneath our human intellect.

Life is sometimes meant to be experienced around a campfire with marshmallows and songs - and not in our study reading Popper's devastating criticism of Marx (and I'm a fan of Popper and agree with him). I also like toasted marshmallows dripping off the stick.

ron in kelowna - apart from the need for relaxation, I think you are ignoring the vital need in our species for 'imagination'.

Without this capacity, we are reduced to machines. That's the thing about machines; they cannot 'imagine'; they cannot imagize 'what is not real'. That's what people in computer science and robotics are working on - how to enable a machine to 'imagine What If'. Very difficult.

Fiction - which has been a unique capacity of our species since we emerged - is the articulation of that capacity-to-imagine. What else is the articulation of that capacity? Innovation, inventions, scientific hypotheses.

The Japanese have lots of fiction, poetry, folk tales - so, your analogy doesn't seem valid. Surely you aren't suggesting they lack this capacity?

The ratio of people who are going to transform their imaginative dreams into practical technology is always less than the ratio who are simply going to 'fictionalize'. But, don't denigrate this important capacity of our species.

The ultimate in fiction is 'Tinsel Town'. A fantasy world. Is Hollywood good for our mental health ??

Think Michael Moore.

Some imagination, some fiction --- sure. But 90% ?

Ellie in T.O and Ron in Kelowna, I'm with ET. No, I wouldn't classify Harry Potter as "classic literature" but it IS "literature". Reading ANYTHING improves one's "literacy", though perhaps not their level of sophistication or knowledge.

I agree with Einstein, too, who said "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

I think I'll go back to criticizing Islamofascists. They're less fanatical than Potterites, and way more reasonable. :D

I think there is a HUGE difference between 'imagination' as in 'inquisitive' or 'inventive'

AND

the 'utopian dream world' that may only lead our children to hoping for the impossible. Then, at middle age, they have to face reality. A huge let down.

Horses talk to us.
Pigs fly.
A Giant, or heaven, at the top of the beanstock.
In control earth's thermostat.

I also have a boxed set of Perry Mason, Nero Wolfe and the Hardy Boys. Most of them bought at garage sales and used book sales. Working on completing Nancy Drew. The grandkids love them. Of course they laugh at prices mentioned for various items and can't believe people actually had tires checked, windows washed, and a man pumping gas and checking oil at gas stations. HP, never read any of the books or saw any movies, but the kids have read and seen them all.

I'm with ET - at first I instinctively resisted all the hype and thought I'd hate the Harry Potter books as some kind of low-brow trash. But then I read the first one and thoroughly enjoyed and I'm delighted my kids read them cover-to-cover multiple times as soon as each issue comes out.

Criticism of the media hype is fine - it's not needed to sell the books. Those of us who enjoy them will buy them for our kids and read them ourselves.

ellie in TO - what, for example, is fanatical and unreasonable about my critique of your comments? Absolutely nothing. Don't move into a straw man type of argumentation.

No, ron in kelowna, the 'hoping for the impossible' is a necessary action. What is deemed impossible now might be possible in the future. Who, for instance, would have dreamed that humans could fly? Could travel at speeds of 1,000 km, could 'swim' deep underneath the sea, etc, etc. Could eradicate certain diseases and so on?

To equate utopianism with this imagination is, I suggest, incorrect. The difference between the inventive exploration of reality and utopianism is that the latter already has the exact Image of this Final State. Frozen and quite immune to further imagination.

He then proceeds to force people into living within this Final State. Very much like Plato, whose utopian totalitarianism also forbade imagination. No mythic tales, no great Hector going off to war, no Odysseus, the 'man of many wiles' - who was, himself, highly imaginative and thus, very resourceful.

The inventive imagination has no final end state in mind. It simply proceeds by fantasy images and questions.

I wonder if we could actually fly; how could we make a human fly. I wonder if we could understand how horses communicate with each other; how do cells communicate with each other. Can we change the way these 'rogue cancerous cells' communicate so that we can stop the cancer? All the technological and scientific advances have been due to our capacity to imagine.

Are you going to tell children that they may not dream of the impossible, that they may only fantasize about what is possible? How do we know the difference?

Doesn't this mean that we end up with, not merely, the end of Superman, Batman, Spiderman etc, but also, with all our mythic' or larger than life heroes - Odysseus, Hector and all the gods - Zeus, Poseidon, Athene, Ariadne - all of them lost to us. All their stories.

Ellie in TO: The guardian article you cite is 5 years old. I would be interested to know how books sales in the children's lit segment are today - I suspect it is a good deal higher than in 2002. I will say that going to the bookstore today I was struck by the plethora of new authors in this category now, as compared to several years ago. Anecdotal, I know, but it does not seem unreasonable to believe that reading is now more popular among kids than formerly. Criticisms similar to yours have also been levied against Oprah's picks. No offense, but it is hard not to suspect a tiny hint of elitism here. Reading, when picked up as a child, tends to be a lifelong habit, which is IMO a Good Thing. I imagine the kids who start on HP graduate to more challenging fare when they're a bit older. Now, if these same parents buying Potter books for their kids could just turn off the damned TV! I am always struck by the gobsmacked looks on people's faces when I tell them I haven't watched TV in 10 years.

I'm disappointed by some of the comments here. If the books in question are not to your liking well fine. Each person has their own tastes. Some of the statements though, alluding to children being disappointed later in life if they read books of fantasy in their youth are bluntly ridiculous.

Dreamers are the ones who make things happen. They're the ones who do the exotic research, propagate new political and social concepts. A very very few of them are also the ones who can foresee the consequences of actions and how to mitigate the outcomes. Without them we'd be a stratified, petrified civilization much like the so laudable socialist paradises of last century and some of the quaint societies of the middle east today.

A society that would prevent it's children from dreaming is at best an overreaching nanny state. At worst it's something I would die trying to overthrow (hopefully taking a few sideboys into hell with me to show my status). If a piece of literature doesn't promote porn or the facets of our worst nature then I find it acceptable for young adults and children.

The books in question are more than acceptable. The early ones were aimed at a younger audience and a lot of adults wouldn't be willing to modify their thought process to appreciate them. The later ones were aimed at a maturing group. Nowhere did I see anything but the best of human nature being supported. The people who object to our youngsters reading these books should really take a closer look at their own souls.

[the 'hoping for the impossible' is a necessary action.] ET

Agreed -- but within reason.

Is 90% of Chapters books being in the fiction/occult section "reasonable" ??

I think you are misunderstanding me.

Quality literature is a good thing. Absolutely.

I have a problem, though, with kid's books that fill their vulnerable minds with utopian, sometimes scary, obviously fradulent fiction.

Santa Claus brings the gifts in a sleigh --- maybe it's ok to fool them for awhile, but after they may be thinking; "Hey, you lied about Santa, what else is BS ?"

Ogo Pogo sea monster in Lake Okanagan --- why scare them with fiction.

How many barrels of ink to perpetuate the myth that aliens made the crop circles ?? One media picture of the droped candy wraper in the field could have blown the myth. But oh, no. Let the kids(and grown-ups) fantasize. And be wrong.

I fully agree, JD.

With regard to the Christopher Little ebay scenario, the individual, Will Collier, who was selling his copy on ebay, crowing about his 'rights' to do so etc, seems to me to have missed the point. The fact that he bought his copy 'legitimately'; that he is selling it 'legitimately' is irrelevant.

There is a 'noblesse oblige' understanding, not with the author, not with the publisher, but with the readers - that no copy will be available to this group of readers until the first minute of July 21st. To obtain and sell a copy before this, violates the principle of fairness to the millions of readers who don't have access to this singular copy being sold for profit on ebay.

Yet, here is this individual, Will Collier, crowing about his 'rights', his 'freedom' - and ignoring his responsibility, not a legal responsibility, but a human responsibility, to the millions of readers. Sad.

"Ellie in TO: The guardian article you cite is 5 years old. I would be interested to know how books sales in the children's lit segment are today - I suspect it is a good deal higher than in 2002."

The fact that Scholastic, the US publisher of Potter, is struggling to keep afloat financially would suggest this is not the case. The book industry is in serious trouble and if Potter can't even save its own publisher, it can't be doing much for anyone else.

"No offense, but it is hard not to suspect a tiny hint of elitism here."

I'll take "elitism" (the pursuit of higher standards) over mediocrity any day, thanks. And with all due respect to Ron, the problem isn't that "90% of the books on the shelves are fiction." It's that 90% of that 90% is trash.

"I imagine the kids who start on HP graduate to more challenging fare when they're a bit older."

Hello? The kids who started on HP are still reading HP. They haven't "graduated" to anything.

"Now, if these same parents buying Potter books for their kids could just turn off the damned TV!"

They won't. They're sitting down together watching Potter DVDs. Over and over and over and...

[Dreamers are the ones who make things happen. They're the ones who do the exotic research, propagate new political and social concepts. A very very few of them are also the ones who can foresee the consequences of actions and how to mitigate the outcomes.]JD

You mean like Al Gore ??

This is exactly my point --- it should not take 20 years to expose a fraud. Fictional books delay the truth coming to light.

If kids are to read fiction it should be made clear to them it is simply someone's "thoughts" and not necessarily true. Don't worry if it scares you. Don't blindly follow the 'imagination'. It may just be a garden path.

"To obtain and sell a copy before this, violates the principle of fairness"

ET, the "principle of fairness" is not a law. He's being accused of breaking the law, which he has not done.

ron in kelowna - no, I don't think that if children are told that, there's no sea monster in Lake Okanagan, then, they would know that there are no such scary things.

What's fascinating about the human mind is that almost all lakes have mythic tales of 'monsters' in the deep. I don't think these are copy-cat tales; they are tales that we, as humans, invent in each and every situation. Therefore, we're going to invent them again, even if a scientific voice denies their validity.

What's wrong with Santa Claus? So what? The annual Santa Claus parade in my town is one of the biggest parades of the year - and it isn't only children who attend. To believe in the impossible is a human strength.

If you debunk the alien stories, another one about aliens will spring up. Think of how often the 9/11 conspiracy has been debunked.

How are you going to stop the wild fertility of the mind? Listen to Achilles answering Odysseus who was trying to make Achilles feel good about being dead - and Achilles answers: "Don't try to prettify death for me, noble Odysseus. I would rather live as a cowherd in the service of a poor peasant, with barely enough to eat, than reign over all these wasted dead". (xi, 490) The dead mind has no imagination. Imagine living among people who cannot imagine what is not now. As soon as that sets in, one is effectively dead.

Poor Ron in Killona was only allowed to read the Encyclopedia Britanica or the Eaton's catalog as a kid. No use having his hopes dashed by reality now is there. Of course he never pretended that he was Roy Rogers, a Musketeer, Buck Rogers, or one of the Hardy boys. To the salt mines with you.

Imagination is where creativity lies, and inovative ideas developed. I have not read any Potter although I have seen part of a movie and it looked interesting. Anything that encourages young people (and adults) to read or head to the library cannot be as evil as claimed. It is a parent's job to help their children to distinguish between fact and fiction, not banish imagination.

JD's comment was right on the money.

Banishing reading for entertainment's sake is so taliban.

Another more recent article,supporting the initial survey's findings:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/11/books/11potter.html?ex=1184990400&en=407c33726360d38c&ei=5070

"According to the National Assessment of Educational Progress, a series of federal tests administered every few years to a sample of students in grades 4, 8 and 12, the percentage of kids who said they read for fun almost every day dropped from 43 percent in fourth grade to 19 percent in eighth grade in 1998, the year “Sorcerer’s Stone” was published in the United States. In 2005, when “Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince,” the sixth book, was published, the results were identical."

Kids are reading less, not more. Potter and Goosebumps and all the rest of these kid-lit fads haven't done a damn thing to change that.

So, perhaps the reason a clearly fraudulent 'An Inconvenient Truth' got so far is because people like fiction ?? Is this good ??

[Poor Ron in Killona was only allowed to read the Encyclopedia Britanica or the Eaton's catalog as a kid] TC

That hurt :(

Topics I have read about all my life;
Geology
Geography
Climatology
Aviation
Agronomy
Financial History
Politics
Astronomy

This just in: Reuters - tinyurl.com/2aomt3 - "The New York Times and the Baltimore Sun published reviews of the final Harry Potter book on Thursday before it went on sale [...]"

Ron was lucky. I only got to read the Chemical Rubber Company's Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. And you tell that to kids today. They won't believe you.

By the way, on the matter of kids reading, imagination, skills, fact, fiction, &c, in addition to The Hardy Boys and The Dangerous Book for Boys (of course), I'd recommend The Mad Scientists' Club - tinyurl.com/yqprkn [amazon.ca]. Of course, as I alway say, de gustibus non est disputandum.

I haven't read any HP books. Nothing against HP my son has a well used copy of every HP book and DVD on the market. I used to enjoy reading fiction, especially science fiction but now find I get my fill just reading the broadsheets.

ellie in TO - I'm aware that the principle of fairness is not a law. It's still a principle. Do we only interact with each other according to a law, and if there is no law, we do whatever mischief springs to mind?

ellie in TO - I think you are being elitist. Why are the HP novels 'mediocre'? Since I assume you've read them - otherwise you couldn't come up with this judgment- could you first define what is mediocre about them and second, why so many children and adults like this mediocrity?

With regard to ron in kelowna and the used bookstore - most of the books may be fiction because people tend to hold onto the non-fiction books - ie, philosophical, scientific, historical tomes.

ellie in TO - I'm very sceptical of surveys until I've seen the exact questions. I've seen so many surveys with quite astonishing questions! So, I can't accept your stats. What does 'reading for fun' mean? I don't read for 'fun'; I read to enjoy the tales. I play games for fun.

ron in kelowna - the reason Gore's Travesty has gotten so far, is not because people like fiction, but because people are first, emotional and second, submissive to authority. You had the UN IPCC with its authoritarian report - which is then picked up by Gore and transformed into an apocalpytic scenario. Those two forces, authority and emotion, will do the trick to influence population belief every time. Nothing to do with fiction. It's basic human nature.

How do you counter it? With more authority - the authority of outspoken scientists, data, and an appeal to reason. But, it's not easy and it takes time, because the FIRST and most immediate appeals to belief are always authority and emotion. Not reason. Reason requires doubt, critical thinking, analysis. It's harder and more time consuming.

Or, vitruvius, we could say that 'calamitosus est animus futuri anxius' which is to say, we shouldn't try to, out of fear, control our imagination about the future. Huic potatori.

Shakespeare was pop culture at one time, too. So was Dickens and every other writer of fiction throughout history. Works become "important" because people read them, get excited, and get other people to read them. Most books written to *be* important are forgotten, and the writers go back to their days jobs, teaching English Lit at a university.

Harry Potter is good, and it could very well be important one day... but only time will tell on that.

Amazing arguments.

So because Al Gore might be a dreamer then reading should be limited to only "factual" writing for our youth.

So because one set of statistics say there's been no discernible improvement in early reading rates then to purgatory with a set of books.

Point one. Dreaming is not the same as delusion (or dare we hint amoral political posturing for self promotion?). To support the argument Al's early reading habits should be presented as evidence. After reviewing Al's more than occasional regurgitation of unimaginative, unsupported "evidence" I doubt the appellation of dreamer instead of amoral fits him very well. I might further point out that the inability to care a dream to it's conclusion and foresee all the permutations is the reason we have so many hysterics in areas such as climate, politics etc..

Point two. So what? Does that statistic cover potential reading on the PC from such sources as the Gutenburg Project? My son has retrieved a fair share of books from there. There's more than a few other sites. Also think e-books that have been available for sale over the last years. I have the bills to prove my children enjoyed those. Also I would note libraries haven't faded into oblivion yet. I would dare say if the reading statics are vaguely valid then it's the basic percentage of our children who will expand their minds and inadvertently continue preparing themselves for the future.

My first full book, at age 8, was Spacehounds of IPC by E. E. Doc Smith. I read it by a coal oil lamp initially (we actually got electricity later that year). I'm in my fifties now. My personnel library is about 3k volumes in size with about 900 of those being scifi. My initial readings made me curious about science, mathmatics political, and later, military theory. In the practical world I went into the military where, trust me, the ability to dream and theorize is very important when doing battle plans and leading combat troops. The ability to "fantasize" courses of action and they're consequences makes a big difference how many of your own are still alive when it's done.

By the arguments given I should have been an indecisive, useless drone. I beg to differ for myself and my now mature children.

In summation the arguments are that reading doesn't positively impact children and that reading, other than staid factual articles, is detrimental to children. I call BS. Go ahead though and force your offspring into those molds. We'll see who's decedents come out on top.

[ .. most of the books may be fiction because people tend to hold onto the non-fiction books ..]ET

Why ? Because they are worthless after one reading ? ---- people realize it is just fiction ? :)

[You had the UN IPCC with its authoritarian report - which is then picked up by Gore and transformed into an apocalpytic scenario.]ET

Agreed. Fiction.

[How do you counter it? With more authority - the authority of outspoken scientists, data, and an appeal to reason.]ET

Agreed. Counter it with non-fiction. My point all along.

If the media, academia, authors, bookstores, would not push fiction so hard then we would be saved from a lot of unneccessary trouble. And angst. And waste. And misdirected energy.

Well, ET -- and this comment is not for the kids -- speaking as a potatori but not a peccatori, I would point out that H. L. Mencken did say: "The harsh, useful things of the world, from pulling teeth to digging potatoes, are best done by men who are as starkly sober as so many convicts in the death-house, but the lovely and useless things, the charming and exhilarating things, are best done by men with, as the phrase is, a few sheets in the wind".

Anyway, though my problem tends to be an over-active imagination, I fully agree that we shouln't constrain our imagination upon principle, but there are times, such as when wrenching down the nut on a pressure safety valve to determine the set pressure at which it will release, when imagination is generally not something you want to be doing a lot of.

I have not commented up or down on HP in this thread, but there is a degree to which I agree with Ron, and that is: a little fiction goes a long way. People who wallow in fiction tend to be detached from reality (thank you Mr. Tautology).

It is not the reading of fictional work per se that I question --- it is the volume of the hype by the media, academia, Hollywood that can be harmful. (AIT)

How far would Michael Moore have got without Tinseltown ??

After all, as ET pointed out, a lot of fictional books end up junked in used bookstores --- because people read them and discard them. Deed done.

[Go ahead though and force your offspring into those molds. We'll see who's decedents come out on top.]JD

An Optometrist and a Pharmaceutical Geneticist.

Two for two, If I may boast :)

I would think even a latte-crowd-type believes it is sorta nice to see and be healthy.

You vill read vat I say to read...und no laffink.

Potter books are a great read. Like it was said earlier, good character development, continuity and a fair bit of suspense.

Pat

Vitruvius

That resembles me. I "wallow" in fantasy as the mood strikes. I've also wallowed in the mud and the blood on to many occasions. A healthy mind can differentiate and without having the imagination challenged may never dream the important questions.

ron

Theoretical mathematician preparing for his doctorate, second one hasn't selected her major yet though hopefully she will before I go broke (out of state tuition is a pain for a retired army grunt/small business owner who can't get government subsidization).

Your point seems to be a concern that reading fiction will lock a child into some fantasy world from which they'll never emerge. My point is that fantasy is the primer for curiosity and will cause a healthy mind to search for answers. Fantasy is the exercise routine for a person's imagination. Without imagination I doubt if we'd be much into even the steam age now. Do people get lost in their fantasies? Yep, online gaming is the newest proof that a percentage will be vulnerable to this. After all a fantasy can be far more enticing than reality. This has been true throughout human history. Also true is that people with this predilection will tend to go there despite the non availability of casual fiction sources. This does not, in my opinion, out weight the benefits of encouraging a child's imagination to ask the "what if" questions.

A child will dream despite any attempts to prevent it. They'll spin fantasies while ready Harry Potter, Tom Sawyer or even a dry treatise on the polio vaccine. I contend giving a healthy source of new ideas for these fantasies weighs greatly on the beneficial side. The books in question encourage the "what if" of moral questions. What if I acted nobly. What if I followed the better facets of human nature.

The ability to imagine "what if" is needed to find the steps leading to the question. It's important in engineering, military ops, mathematics and even molecular manipulation as researched in Pharmaceutical Geneticism. The more flexible the imagination the better.

If you want serious flights of "fantasy" to disparage then I encourage you to peruse through say multi-verse theory. A more prominent theory basically denies that fantasy exists since all must occur within an infinite set of universes. By this theory there's a distant universe in which a Harry Potter is standing outside the Burrow holding a girl named Ginny's hand at this very moment. Fanciful? The math says it must happen and the general theory has fewer gaping holes than most others of that nature.

In closing I return to my previous posting examples. Certain societies in the last century, currently existing in the Middle East and in certain enclaves within our own continent are fine examples of controlled access to casual, fantasy instilling, fiction. Fantasy still exists within the minds of the young who lived and are living there now. What outlets have these fantasy manifestations followed? Tell me where you'd live.

Ron in Kelowna, to me you are being a bit of a curmudgeon today. I swore off reading fiction in my early 20's probably for the same reason as you did. I picked up a copy of Issac Asimov's Foundation in my early 40's and discovered brilliant fiction. Call me transformed.

I'm sure glad I didn't impose my narrow belief of acceptable reading material on my children. They were nuts about Potter.

I assert that you used your imagination to come up with your dismissive arguments against ET's views, given your arguments are devoid of supporting data. 90%! Not 91%?

I suspect the strenuousness of your arguments may be an attempt put a claw mark a little higher up the tree than ET's. Good luck with that.

I have never read a Potter book, though I am delighted that my kids enjoyed them as much as they did and do. My 18 and 20 year old dressed in silly clothes just last weekend to go to an HP movie. They are both are in University doing extremely well thank you very much, one in business, the other in science.

Apparently they weren't harmed.

In our time imagination is given too short a shrift.

Imagination is the primary potential out of which grow the performing and creative arts. William Blake saw the imagination as a vehicle that carried on the tradition of Hebrew prophets through the agency of poets and creators of literature. After all, Blake figured that the visionary experience called upon imagination and inspiration that brought what was numinous on the inside into the experience of the physical world. So this put, in Blake's view, the artist as a kind of priest mediating inner experience into the actualities of the sensory-oriented world.

In this he was basically following the Romantic Tradition which saw (in Wordsworth, Keats, Shelley, Byron) nature as a symbolic gateway into the world of ideas and imagination. Symbolists like Verlaine and Rimbeaux drew symbols from any quarter, not just nature, and attempted to do the same thing.

There is a whole imaginative tradition that winds its secret way through Western life. Joseph Campbell says that the best introduction to this is "Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition" by Frances A. Yates. (I recommend Dame Yates's third volume of Collected Essays, "Ideas and Ideals in the North European Renaissance" and her work "The Art of Memory," that Renaissance system of imagination and memory that allowed orators to memorize speeches so incredibly long that today one would rarely even believe possible the memory system presented to the mind.

There are those who see the imagination as having an epistemology of its own. It has been said that a technology of the imagination is the middle ground between science and religion, reconciling them. Physicians at the time of Paracelsus called on this view in the practice of their science.

And then there are philosophers like Douglas Fawcett who posit the imagination in the place that Schopenhauer would place Will and Hegel would place Reason. As you can see this is a world view that comprehends existence as a product of an Envisioner in contemplation of a vision.

Coleridge said, "The Imagination, I consider as either primary, or secondary. The primary Imagination I hold to be the living power and prime agent of all human perception, and as a repetition in the finite mind of the eternal act of creation in the infinite I Am. The secondary Imagination I consider as the echo of the former, co-existing with the conscious will, yet still as identical with the primary in the kind of its agency, indifferent only in degree and in the mode of its operation. It dissolves, diffuses, dissipates, in order to re-create; or where this process is rendered impossible, yet still at all events it struggles to idealize and unify. It is essentially vital, even as all objects (as objects) as fixed and dead."

HILLARY CLINTON AND HER CHAMBER OF SECRETS, And FAWKES THE PHOENIX is getting tired and angry at her and her wackos haning onto his tailfeathers SQUAWK SQUAWK LET GO OF ME YOU LIBERALS OR I,LL DO WHAT ALL BIRDS DO SQUAWK SQUAWK SQUAWK

With all the hoopla on SDA about HP. Here's a view of the Harry Potter phenomena.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/opinion/story.html?id=91a62f30-6f8c-4bb0-a18f-baf1da89c6de

Pat

ET: "Popper's devastating criticism of Marx (and I'm a fan of Popper and agree with him)."

At one time I, too, thought Popper had a devastating critique of Marx (and of religion and of a lot of other things). I have since changed my mind about many things, though I still think he (i.e. Popper) makes some important points. Interestingly enough, I once met a Latin American marxist who said much the same thing.

Anyway, good for you for defending the HP books. I am perplexed by the criticisms advanced by many here. I suspect some of them are just chronically angry. (I say that with some sympathy.)

"I can't accept your stats."

Then, ET, will you kindly supply some stats of your own to back up your arguments, which so far have been fact-free.

Yukon Gold: comparing Rowling to Dickens and Shakespeare is not going to win you my respect. It IS a good way to convince me you're a nitwit.

ellie in TO - How about answering my questions, for your comments on the Rowlings books are completely fact free.

What were the questions in the survey? Surely you know that survey questions can be biased and lead to invalid results.
Again, what does 'reading for fun' mean?

Have you actually read the Potter books, and would you therefore, clarify why you conclude that they are 'mediocre'. Personally, I am of the opinion that you haven't read them; you sound too 'full of yourself' to stoop to the level of the peasantry.

The fact that no law was broken by Collier is, as I said, irrelevant. What was broken was the principle of fairness. For example, do you give up your seat to an elderly person or pregnant woman on the bus? Is that a law? NO?? Or is it simply a principle of fairness to another? Do you behave to others only if there is a law that tells you to do so? And if there is no law, then, you do whatever you please?

By the way - notice how the ignorant peasants are out enjoying themselves, waiting for the book to be released. In Toronto, they've closed down part of a major intersection and transformed it into a 'Diagon Alley' from the book; there's music and costumes and contests - everyone having a great time.

Ahhh, the impoverished minds of the peasantry; it takes so little to please them, doesn't it ellie. Bread and circuses. Or, as the Liberals have informed us - beer and popcorn. Or, as you are informing us - Harry Potter books.

We are all, ignorant peasants, satisfied with, in your terms, 'mediocrity'. That's why thousands of children - and adults - all over the world - are waiting at the bookstore, at midnight if you can believe it, in costumes, having a great time - waiting for that book. We are all, mediocre, aren't we?

I know you haven't read the books, but you remind me of Dolores Umbridge - a character in the Order of the Phoenix.

A nerve seems to have been struck.

Why so seriously indignant over fiction ?

Is this 'soft spot' the reason for the success of the clearly fictitious major pieces; AIT and F-911 ?? Scary.

Every 'imagination' deserves the 'benefit of the doubt'. A 'sorting out' will determine if it is feasible, harmless, usefull, dangerous, expensive, entertaining, a life skill or just silly.

Problem is, although some may be catagorized in minutes, some may take decades, even centuries. And may cause wars.

"That's why thousands of children - and adults - all over the world - are waiting at the bookstore, at midnight if you can believe it, in costumes, having a great time - waiting for that book."

What does it say on the Golden Arches, ET? "Billions and billions served." So Big Macs ARE good for you, I guess, 'cause that many people CAN'T be wrong.

As someone else here observed, time will tell. As hard as it may be for you to believe, Mr Potter may yet go the way of Goosebumps, Pet Rocks, Care Bears, Tickle Me Elmo, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, the Spice Girls, The X-Files, Beanie Babies, Cabbage Patch Dolls, Pokemon, The Celestine Prophecy, and everything else that the wise all-knowing public has declared to be The Best Thing Since Sliced Bread. We'll see...

no, ellie, you have not read the Potter books and yet you still define them as 'mediocre' - now, that's a reasonable and intelligent action, isn't it? Sounds more like elitist snobbery and prejudice to me.

I know you think that the peasantry don't know what is good for them and you must make rules for them about 'how to live'. Ahh, you are a version of Dolores Umbridge.

As for MacDonald's not being 'good for you', well, they aren't bad for you; and in addition, you know what you are getting and millions of people like the TASTE, the ease, and the satisfaction. It's wierd about people, ellie, but not everyone wants only what is good for them; they also want to like something.

I know we peasants are ignorant, ellie, and we need Wise Elitists like you to guide us. Or do we?

In this day of democracy, we have discovered that we have minds rather equal to yours, and we'll make our own decisions about what we like, thank you very much. Especially valid when the Wise Men haven't a clue about what they are talking about. You haven't read the Potter books - and yet, you still sniff at them with your nose in the air. That's the sign of a rational person or a bigoted person?

As for their passing fancy - who cares? Each of those examples you mention is a version of a basic Form - and the Form, which is abstract, is never fully articulated. So, there'll be lots more of these versions of that Basic Form. We peasants are so lucky that we have the imagination to create more versions.

I think this is what Kate meant by her post on Potter --- as only Rex Murphy can put it;

[The Potter series has been inextricably grafted onto the great promotional arts of global marketing and publicity, pioneered with Hollywood and supplemented by the celebrity-entertainment machinery of our media-saturated age.

The Potter series has taken all these arts and, in a touch of genius, yoked them to the absolutely benign uplift of "getting or helping children to read." Rarely have commerce and edification found so silky and profitable a bed. Who is, who can be, against "getting children to read?" It would be worse than badmouthing recycling. To recast an ancient injunction - It were better a man lash himself to a Hummer, and be bulldozed into a wetland, than question getting the little ones to read.] RM

http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/LAC/20070721/COREX21/Headlines/headdex/headdexComment/11/11/18/

"A nerve seems to have been struck." Ron in Kelowna

Yours apparently.

Ellie in T.O........ you forgot the Beatles, you know those guys who started with "She Loves you ya ya ya". Boy, those guy's certainly were doomed to fade from the scene were'nt they Ellie. I'd hate to be you.

Ya gotta love capitalism. Pure magic.

Ye gods, ET, you're defensive. Why do you have so much invested in this? Can it be that you suspect deep down that I'm right? I know the Potter books are mediocre because I read two of them (the second one was required reading for a course)and found them to be horribly written, derivative and cliched. (Oh, and I majored in English.)

Here's a news flash for you: I DO NOT HAVE TO LIKE EVERYTHING THAT YOU LIKE. Also, strange as it may seem, I am entitled to my own (educated)opinion. Accept it. You're not going to convert me to your childish fetish, and you're certainly not impressing me. In fact, you're just confirming my opinion of Potter fans as adults with arrested development.