well, I know this area like the back of my hand, and I can say with authority that this little "detour" will add about 1 1/2 hours to anybody's trip....as well, being friday of the long weekend, and with all the folks heading to their cottages, I can guarantee some form of carnage as these secondary highways are not in the greatest condition.....this is one f#$%ed up situation, and it sure would be nice if the cops would do their damn job, and enforce the law

It's just as likely that anyone getting near the protest line may be in the crosshairs themselves. These protesters should now be classified as terrorists. Their spokesman Shawn Brant (a wanted man) has publicly stated that the protesters are armed and will use their firearms if they feel they are threatened.

They need to be shut down, jailed, and treated as terrorists for this reason alone!

Section 83.01(1)(b) defines terrorist activity as:

(b) an act or omission, in or outside Canada,

(i) that is committed

(A) in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause, and

(B) in whole or in part with the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public, with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act, whether the public or the person, government or organization is inside or outside Canada, and

(ii) that intentionally

(A) causes death or serious bodily harm to a person by the use of violence,

(B) endangers a person’s life,

(C) causes a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or any segment of the public,

(D) causes substantial property damage, whether to public or private property, if causing such damage is likely to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C), or

(E) causes serious interference with or serious disruption of an essential service, facility or system, whether public or private, other than as a result of advocacy, protest, dissent or stoppage of work that is not intended to result in the conduct or harm referred to in any of clauses (A) to (C),

and includes a conspiracy, attempt or threat to commit any such act or omission, or being an accessory after the fact or counselling in relation to any such act or omission, but, for greater certainty, does not include an act or omission that is committed during an armed conflict and that, at the time and in the place of its commission, is in accordance with customary international law or conventional international law applicable to the conflict, or the activities undertaken by military forces of a state in the exercise of their official duties, to the extent that those activities are governed by other rules of international law.

Amazing isn't it one minute you have a common sense revolution, and the next a bonfire of insanities.
With McGuinty and Fantino both content roasting marshmallows. Fantino is such a disappointment I didn't think he'd be such a nut licker.
It probably will take a person thats had enough to shatter the political correct craziness thats took hold of this province since the liberals took over.

The Globe&Mail has its comments area for this story "closed". A bunch of gutless wonders at Old Grey.

Did anyone notice that the Globe & Mail article had no comments section? What's the matter? Doesn't the G & M trust the public to comment on arboriginal protests?

I also note that 72% of the G & M's online poll supports no special treatment for aboriginal lawbreakers.

I think I should call for an ANGLO-SAXON JUDEO-CHRISTIAN day of action and maybe then I can break the law with impunity.

The most disgusting part of this is that the spineless sh** McGuinty will be re-elected in the fall!

So Brant is a wanted man. Funny. Right now,at 7:30 AM EDT, CBCpravda is doing a live interview with him near Deseronto.Guess the OPP aren't that interested in snagging him. Or maybe they don't watch the communist broadcasting corp either,like most Canucks?

Real nice of the OPP to close the 401 BEFORE any barricades appeared. Just in case. Next time I rob a bank, I'll let the cops know ahead of time, so nobody gets hurt. Maybe they will even clear the road for my getaway car.

As for McGuinty blaming Americans, in this case he should, seeing as this Sean Brant fellow is an American.

OPP have become a laughing stock of Canada. Now helping thugs block a major hiway to avoid confrontation. Spineless.

Andrew, can you fill in the missing bits in this statement: "Section 83.01(1)(b) defines terrorist activity as"?

Section 83.01(1)(b) of what act?

The Liberals and NDP are so worried about what other countries may think of us. Try this on for size; a group of terrorists announces an intent to break the law, they carry out their threat, the OPP and the RCMP..... DO NOTHING.

This is refreshing, most natives I am aware of have been incapable of any action.

Would it not be simpler to ARREST the people trespassing the the Queen's Highway, the way you'd do with other vagrants, insane and disturbed people.

Or just let them get run over by the traffic.

This angers me to the point of where it's difficult to speak intelligently about it.

These natives have nothing to be upset about. There are no injustices save for those created by their own leadership. Anyone who doubts this need only go onto a reserve, drive to the chief's house and count the number of SUV's in their driveway - and note that they're all from the current year. They already get tonnes of money - they just piss it away. And they have the gall to demand more and take action like this.

Does anyone here doubt that if a bunch of angry WASP protesters organized something like this to protest something legitimate - such as our tax dollars being squandered in an almost criminal way - that the police would be breaking it up double-quick and with deadly force?

I guess colour of skin does matter.

Anyone ever bothered to chech on what rights these ancient treaties give the white man?

Also, has anyone noticed that the Mohawk's native territory isn't in Ontario nor Canada for that matter?

Does anyone know what Phil Fontaine's annual salary is?
I wonder if it in the same range as these guys, where the top four guys salaries are all over $400,00.00 a year tax free while the band spends $2340.00 for daycare and cut it's solvent abuse program.
I wonder if that contributes to the rotten conditions on reserves?
http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=368

That is exactly what the ordinary working people of Ontario are saying: just shoot them. The protesters don't have much sympathy here.

The contrast between this story and the car with explosives in Piccadilly is interesting. In London, police diffused the bomb, removed the threat and I'll wager are looking for the culprits. Here, the police have evacuated the area, causing huge disruption, left the bomb ticking and then sit back and wait for the culprits to turn themselves in for arrest.

If it is any consolation, like all idiots, they shall overreach. The next highway to be closed down may hopefully be the Don Valley Parkway. Once the lynch mob of outraged Torontonians exhausts itself, there will be nothing left of these people...

...the natives will not fair too well, either.

Brant sounds like Danny Williams . . . "gimme, gimme, gimme . . you owe me, you owe me, you owe me."

Looking at this, I would now be tempted to start creating my own National day of protests (Using blockades) for issues like these:

- Abolishing the Senate
- Significantly Reduce taxes/reduce the size of Governments : Why pay so much tax for a country who can't even enforce the law? Or deliver a decent healthcare system?
- Close down the CBC

If the cops issue a warrant and/or threatens to remove us and our blockades or for my arrest we'll just tell them we are armed and ready...
Who's with me???

(*Cricket sounds*)

'Thought so...

We pay heavy taxes to keep roads in good condition, taxes to keep criminals off our backs, now we need an anti-moonbat tax for the elimination of dimwitted government employee's. Call it the McGuinty Loon Levy!

"Mark my words - the moment is approaching when a bandana prowling these police protected barricades will end up in the crosshairs of someone's high powered rifle."

Unfortunately, I think you're right... the idiotic actions of a few native nutbars (ie - Shawn Brant) are going to trigger an idiotic reaction from a few white nutbars (ie - KKK members), and all the "white men" are going to be blamed for it.

This is not going to be a good day.

I REALLY hope I'm wrong.

Louise....Andrew's section comes from the Criminal Code of Canada,so, yeah,technically he's wrong calling it an "act". But then most of us aren't that picky.

You racist scum should crawl back into the deep dark hoel yuo oozed from and fester. You are not welcome in my Canada.

Perhaps someone could hold an impromptu bingo game or set up a beer tent, to diffuse the situation.

This was all so predictable. The (non) action of the Government and police in Caledonia has done nothing but embolden these terrorists to commit further atrocities. A very serious precedent was set there and we are now seeing the results of it.

Get a life Jim.
As long as natives cannot buy and sell their property and continue to live on reserves (communes) funded by ordinary Canadians, nothing will change.
A disgusting situation for all.
Make no mistake Jim, blockading and inconveniencing the very people who pay their taxes to fund these communes will do nothing but harm your own cause.

Whoes Cadana.. I mean... Whose Canada?

Oh... the one with verdant stands of timber, and vast, empty stretches of land criss-crossed by nothing but undiverted waterways and about 40 million buffalo?

Perhaps the protesters should dam up the Columbia river.

See if they can drive a beer truck through. Then wait 8 hours, and re-open the highway.

"You racist scum should crawl back into the deep dark hoel yuo oozed from and fester. You are not welcome in my Canada."

Who let this poor little sheep out of the safe confines of his herd?

What is YOUR Canada anyway?...The way you surrender so easily, you should'nt be posting your opinions on blogs anyway...let YOUR (Lefty no doubt) elected rep do all the thinking for you...He'll speak to you via the CBC...

This is friggin unbelievable. If the white guys behaved like that all our butts would be in the slammer. McGuinty has no balls whatsoever. Fantino is a dissappointment. And Ontario will vote the Libs back in.

That Injun is out on parole. Why isn't he back in jail. They are no better than the islamic terrorists. Allow us our guns and we will do the job that the idiot government and the OPP don't have the guts to do.

Everything's going to be OK now:

"Ontario protest leader Shawn Brant says he'll turn himself in to police at midnight after the Canada-wide day of action has ended." [CBC at 0915]

Pretty decent of him and all ...

No need to shoot anyone, just blockade all the roads to and from Casino Rama.

I like the beer truck idea. Start the party early, sleep it off in the Deseronto drunk tank.

Special treat for Shawn Brant, he gets to repair the piece of #2 Highway they burned with that pallet fire. By hand.

Jim, whichever Jim you are, I suggest you calm yourself. You know damn well you'd wake up the morning after and regret it for the rest of your life.

Excellent article on the facts of the Desoronto land claim. Unreal that Ottawa pays for the research that the Indians use to then file land claims against Ottawa. Everything about the claims is sealed privileged files that no one else can view. Old Billy was right "Kill all the lawyers!".

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/columnists/story.html?id=7df81d91-524d-47f7-9bd2-125bba74579e

Though the instigators may be arrested later as the Phantom posted it is too late as the public only sees these criminals getting away with terrorist acts with no visible action by the authorites. It just reinforces the impotency of the police when facing organized ethnic threats. We all know what appeasement leads to.

Setting up a population within a different socioeconomic system in a nation is disastrous. What Canada has done is set up the natives on 'communist socioeconomic' systems - called Reserves. The rest of the country is capitalist industrial, and operates within private enterprise. The natives are not allowed to operate, on reserves, in this manner. Insane.

No private property allowed; no individual may start and run their own businesses. Every business, every bit of work done - the results have to be shared among the community. Not the work; the results.

Communism, a mode of complete sharing of natural and created resources, is only possible within a small group - about 30 people. And - a migratory rather than settled people. Any larger population requires obtaining and storing surpluses to invest for the future - and this has to be done by private individuals authorized to do so.

Then, Canada tried to deal with this by insisting that they 'elect' a leader to make decisions. But if you first insist that there's no private ownership, then, the entire group has to make the decisions - not a leader.

The result is that the 'elected leader' rapidly becomes corrupt, taking the gov't money to himself and his family/kin group. And without private enterprise, there's no economy. None.

My point is only that the basic infrastructure is, as a structure, functionally disastrous in a large and settled population. What should be done?

First - get rid of the Reserve system. Give each adult native a one-time only settlement and that's it. Land claims? No. It's over.

Then, get rid of the monstrous hidden bureaucratic dept of Indian Affairs. This dept, filled with pension-eager civil servants in Ottawa, all brainwashed in the notion of 'the Reserve System' - costs us billions in salaries, offices, pensions, etc per year. Get rid of it.

You cannot have, in a modern industrial society, a hereditary caste system. Yes - that's what we have set up. A caste system. And, the Reserves set up natives within a lifestyle that is completely separate and removed from modern society. They cannot, on the Reserves, operate within a modern industrial economy. But the era of hunting/gathering is long over. So- what happens? They become 'dead people' - welfare bums.

Get rid of the Reserve System; get rid of the gov't bureaucracy that maintains the Caste System - the dept of Indian Affairs. Give each individual (not the band) a once- only settlement, and a once-only educational entitlement. Get rid of the huge civil service parasistic on the Natives....

Justthinkin, thanks. I thought it might be the Criminal Code, but as far as I can see, he didn't refer to it as an "act". That was the word I used. I just didn't know where it was from, but it looks and reads like legalese. Oh, and are you reading something into my comments that isn't there or am I doing that to your comments. To me, your comments have a presumptuous and flippant tone. Like this bit, for example: "But then most of us aren't that picky." Who's being picky? I was seeking clarification. I wasn't "being picky".

Kind of like when the gay wackos closed down the GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE a few years ago during some stupid protest and there were a few motorists who were most likly wanting to run over afew of those gay rights jerks

Papers report that some protestors have announced that they are armed; this of course produced the predictable response from the OPP & Ont. Gov't.....nothing!

There is is certainly something strange and backwards about this whole situation.
If there is an obstruction you would expect the police to remove it.
Instead, here, the police protects the obstruction and prevents normal course of traffic. And politicians and police could not be more proud of themselves.
It must be due to the ‘no fault’ society.

Keep your comments civil

There is a huge gulf between warning of violence and advocating it. Go start your own blogs if you can't behave like adults here.

Whatever the costs were to private companies and persons to have their travel/delivery route delayed, and to pay for police intervention should be sent in a bill to the appropriate band council.

And Ferkissake Harper slam that dickweed terrorist Brant in the pokey for a long time...everything he has said and done constitute donestic terrorism under the definitions in the anti-terror act.

Time to stop treating spoiled bratty kids with respect undue them...Tough love time !

KPD at June 29, 2007 7:59 AM: Canadians need to arm themselves. Then they need to surround the reservation and KILL anything that moves.

Fred at June 29, 2007 8:07 AM: Or just let them get run over by the traffic.

Aaron at June 29, 2007 8:17 AM: That is exactly what the ordinary working people of Ontario are saying: just shoot them.

The Phantom at June 29, 2007 8:27 AM: Presently these Mohawk Warrior dorks will lose interest and wander back to whatever they were doing yesterday. Drinking, probably.

Chicklet at June 29, 2007 9:12 AM: Perhaps someone could hold an impromptu bingo game or set up a beer tent, to diffuse the situation.

Jim at June 29, 2007 9:16 AM: To hell with these red ni**ers, I am fed up with them and the moronic liberals that insist on feeding them. Native land claims should start and end with a six foot deep hole in the rock garden.

Jim at June 29, 2007 9:26 AM: These people SHOULD be shot...I swear, if one of those damned things steps out in front of my truck, they will be washing it off the bumber for the coroner. Those red monkeys are a godsend for the race and hate groups.

Mark at June 29, 2007 9:40 AM: No need to shoot anyone, just blockade all the roads to and from Casino Rama.

Interesting crowd your blog attracts, Kate. Any response to these comments, which either invoke racial stereotypes of Native groups or call for their outright homicide?

Kate commented: "Keep your comments civil

There is a huge gulf between warning of violence and advocating it. Go start your own blogs if you can't behave like adults here."

Well said Kate. I was getting concerned this blog was increasingly reflecting views from the very extreme margins.

It's nice to have you back.

Me: "Interesting crowd your blog attracts, Kate. Any response to these comments...?"

Ah, nevermind. I was writing my comment as you were posting yours.

"Amazing isn't it one minute you have a common sense revolution, and the next a bonfire of insanities."

.......great observation on the schizophrenic personality of Ontario politics Mug. Can I quote you? This is fairly profound.

Ontario went from a belt-tightening downsizing program to get an out of control nanny sate deficit and debt under control..fiscal responsibility, executive responsibility under the rule of law with open government processes....to a kleptocracy of civil servant unionism, a regulatory tyranny of the middle class and land owners, and a dystopia with lying leadership, closed door policy/deal making and 2 tiered justice/ law enforcement that allows minority group terrorism.

McGuinty has parlayed mental illness into public policy in Onterrible.

The seething racism in this comment thread is disgusting. You should all take a step back and think before you post such words. No wonder some Aboriginals feel this is the type of action they need to take to get noticed.

Unfortunately, instead of reflecting on they why it seems many here and around the country would rather spew messages of hate and intolerance.

I am amused as always by the fair-minded highbrow leftie trolls who criticize the vitriol and use of "violent" words. Always condemning the rednecks without once, ever, addressing the substance of the issue!

Can’t we all just get along? Look at me, I am so smart and peaceful and correct.This is my Canada, not yours.

Cowards

Incidentally, isn't civil disobedience rather central to a free society? There's much talk here at SDA about resisting authoritarian government, oppressive state/police tactics, the silencing of dissent, etc. Yet, peaceful protest is the right of all, even Native groups.

You complain that they're breaking the law. Well, yes, that would be the point of civil disobedience, especially if those laws (and the system of authority behind them) are perceived as unjust.

You complain that they're disrupting our "economic security." Well, yes, that would also be the point of civil disobedience, as people tend to pay more attention when their own lives are impacted.

You complain that they're inconveniencing law-abiding citizens. Well, yes, that would also be the point of civil disobedience. If you're not going to attract attention, then why bother?

This was a peaceful protest, by a single group of dissident Natives. The protest was announced weeks in advance. The protesters actually signalled to railway authorities to shut down the track prior to blockading it. The latest news report says the blockage is coming down in time for the weekend cottagers' Friday afternoon exodus from the city. The protest leader has promised to turn himself into authorities, as he's done in the past, after the protest has ended. Despite what Andrew and a few others here might think (or hope), no terrorism laws have been broken. Not a single shot has been fired, not a single drop of blood spilled.

And the protesters have the attention of everyone, including readers here at SDA. Their issues will dominate news headlines for the next few days at least.

Sounds like a fine example of civil disobedience to me. Of course, whether public opinions fall in their favour or against is a separate issue entirely. But insofar as the National Day of Action sought to draw attention to Native issues, then it's been a rousing success so far.

*
"Hours later the OPP issued an arrest warrant for protest leader
Shawn Brant on a charge of mischief."

It's like these thugs went out and egged somebody's house.

*

Double standards, A'dam and Sean S, that's the main cause of the anger. Let's see you get away with the same conduct.

The racism exhibited here is just as bad as what comes out of the mouths of the protesters, but you seem to have no problem stomaching those. Double standards.

A'dam,

I guess in your world no one can reference stereotypes? I guess that Italians don't eat spaghetti, join the mafia and cheat at soccer? Do the French not eat cheese?

I suggest you take your idiot head out of your ass and take it to a reserve. You will see that comments like "Send in a beer truck" aren't too far off the mark.

I believe that you posted after Kate responded to the advocation of violence, so maybe you should read to the bottom before preaching from your altar of ignorance.

Everyone Else,

Chill out... native protests are traditional for Canadian summers. You can't blame a dog for being a dog.

While the media fawn all over this Shawn Brant character, allowing his goonish threats to get maximum publicity, has anyone else noticed that this chap seems to be, well, white? He's got whitish skin, blondish hair, and a great big white mans nose. Maybe someone in the media should ask him: "Why should real Indians use you, obviously a quadroon or octoroon or whatever, as their spokesthug?"

A'dam - I just deleted half of those comments.

And you seem to be intelligent enough to understand something - they are as likely to be submitted by readers from the left intent on creating comments for the purpose of smearing SDA as they are by any other drive-by.

That said - when a group of people hide behind face coverings and their racial "identity" to justify arming themselves and seizing private property, the fact that they might be taunted with stereotypes in a blog's comment section is a damned tame response by anyone's measure.

Adam - what authoritarian gov't are the natives protesting against? What oppressive state/police tatics? What silencing of dissent? Could you explain?

And how does disrupting our economic work, such as transportation, deal with any of their 'issues'?

What they are doing has nothing to do with civil disobedience - which has to refer only to actions carried out directly with reference to THEM, not to others. That is, civil disobedience would refer to their refusing to pay income taxes (but they don't pay any on the Reserves); or, refusing to pay OFF the reserve. But attacking the 'other economy' - the off-reserve economy doesn't fall into this definition of civil disobedience. It falls under criminal actions against civilians.

And, their 'issues' are not being discussed - by the natives. They haven't said a word about them. Their claims of land have to be proven in court. Not by holding others as hostages. The corruption of reserves has to be dealt with- by them.

End the reserves system and get rid of the dept of indian affairs.

"Chill out... native protests are traditional for Canadian summers."

Yeah, let's just all shrug our shoulders and say: "Ah, well!"

It is so typically Canadian...

I want our troops pulled out of Afghanistan immediately...Those poor souls are fighting for a country who does not deserve such sacrifice.

Until we stand up for our rights we get exactly what we deserve. Bitch all you want but that's the bottom line.
Canada IS a racist society, "our" Supreme Court has made that official. When one group receives benefits over another because of religion, race etc. that is racism. Make all the excuses you want, dress the pig up as a ballerina, but it's still a pig.

I can just imagine an attempt to shut down the road to Fort Mac for 24 hours on a Friday.

It would not be pretty with all the workers trying to drive back to Edmonton and Calgary for the weekend. And there is no detour that I know of. One road, that's it.

And the highway North of Fort Mac is so scary during shift change that I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to try to blockade it. Nobody slows down or yields for anything smaller than a moose.

To a few of the comments: If you think closing highways, burnings at crossing is not terrorism, you are really living with your heads in the sand! The majority of the comments here are just saying what the rest of Canada is feeling. This could just backfire on the natives. Let ANY one else OTHER than a Indian pull this $hit theirs butts would be hauled away to jail. Oh, What about the guns???? The police forces in this situation look so pathetic, not to mention the elected representatives of provincial and federal governments. Two tier justice and reverse racism at its finest!

We get the government we vote for. We live with the consequences we voted for. We want change, we have to demand it and that includes hurting the media where it counts: advertizers.

Natives have the right to protest - whether they're right or wront. What they don't have the right to do is violate the rights of everyone else while they do it. You can't claim a right for yourself to violate the rights of others. The blockades should be removed and those responsible charged and brought before a judge. Period.

Yes, there would be a risk that the natives would use the guns they claim to have but that is an even greater reason to act. The Canadian people can't be allowed to be taken hostage, can't back down to the threat of violence.

Civil society breaks down when you lose the respect for law. Anarchy is bad for tolerance and civil rights. The law must be upheld and it doesn't matter a damn what race the violators of the law are nor their cause.

We don't suggest letting murderers and bank robbers off because they may resist the law violently. In fact, that they may be violent urges a swifter response and the stability of democracy demands it.

mecheng

won't happen in alberta, coz everyone is too busy WORKING!

What is wrong with this picture ????

A McGuinty "adviser/lawyer" takes friday "off" in order to get to the cabin early so as to avoid the blockades --- early start to beer party.

He then tells everybody else who may be stuck in "traffic" to stay cool.

Is it just me ??

Now here is a toughie: Would it be a brilliant move or political suicide for the PM to announce during the next election, a plan to dismantle Indian Affairs and fully intigrate First Nations into Canada? I really don't know but I fear that the Canadian voter's love for the status quo would sink any meaningful initiatives (as in Senate reform).

Shawn Brant has a warrant for his arrest!! Yet he is by his bus where the OPP know where he is??? How stupid of the OPP: pussies!!! Yet Shawn Brant is still FREE: please drawn the OPP a map: could be their problem???

Now for Native supporters: cars and trucks are now running 3 to 5 hr’s longer: does pollution mean any thing to you people!!!

Sorry NO a fence to any Cats: just our OPP pussies!!

Ashamed of our OPP,
Jim Smith
dce_ak47@mountaincable.net

Well A'dam (with the aimless apostrophe), while you're chastising others would you care to adress the comments made by Chief Lawrence Joseph on the Gormley show this morning? While claiming not to endorse the use of violence by FN members, he predictably added the caveat "having said that, FN members will use *all means* available to further their message". Of course Murray Wood did not challenge him on this.

Tacitly endorsing violence is now a "Canadian value"?

The Globe&Mail has its comments area for this story "closed". A bunch of gutless wonders at Old Grey.
Posted by: da prince
Geez, that's funny, you meam like this blog? :
relapsed catholic, and Michelle Malkins blog, and...

(B) endangers a person’s life,
Posted by: Andrew at June 29, 2007 6:11 AM
You mean like incitement to violence like this?:
Mark my words - the moment is approaching when a bandana prowling these police protected barricades will end up in the crosshairs of someone's high powered rifle

As far as that goes, da prince this post at this blog fits this act entirely:
Section 83.01(1)(b) defines terrorist activity as:

A. Cooper, I suspect that the apostrophe is just a short form for "A damn" fool.

He's just playing a part in order to provoke us, so ignore the troll. He feigns shock and outrage for effect...any fool would be able to read the comments in context and understand the (relatively innocent) intent of most commenters(although, having said that, there was at least a couple that were WAY too inappropriate).

Yes, the dept of indian affairs has to be ended. And shutting it down would create the same kind of rejectionism that we see about the Senate.

First- the civil service, who've worked there for umpteen years with their perks, benefits, pensions etc - would go beserk.

Then, the other 'status quo' idealists who can't handle change will start to scream. Funny how these people, who are all Liberals, call themselves 'progressives'. Heh.

But the Liberals in the House and Senate will shriek against progress and change. For no reason other than it's change and they promote regression not progression.

And the natives, the corrupt leaders of each band, they'll be against it. After all - they get tons of money from the gov't for doing NOTHING but say they are leaders in their band. So, they won't want to move out of the federal trough.

But -it will have to come. The way to do it is, as Harper does things - by 'bricolage' or step by step, where he gets people accustomed to change by first, talking about it. Trying to do it one step at a time.

Canadians, brainwashed for a generation into Liberal centralism and Big Nanny gov't, and brainwashed against thinking, can't handle change. After all, change requires the ability to 'imagine' what it would be like. And Canadians have been forbidden from doing that; we are 'tolerant'; we accept all; we don't imagine what it would be like to do things differently.

So, broach the idea gradually. Start to talk about it. And then - continue to talk while the Old Guard stands up and shrieks.

Compare what is happening with the Senate - and the Senate is digging its own grave. It is fighting not to change - and its fight actually means that it is intruding on the gov't; the Senate is starting to make legislative decisions - which it has no right to do - because it is trying to prevent change in the Senate.

So- the reserve system has to end; and the Dept of indian affairs has to end.
Start talking about it - and the acceptance of these ideas will spread.

Thanks to Trudeau, the indian act is part of the constitution so it will be going nowhere fast.

Thanks to Trudeau, indians now have soveriegn rights but the rest of Canadians have to live with deals signed by foreign lords a couple hundred years ago. Scratch that last. What we have to live with is indians' re-interpretation of what they think should have been in the deals. The deals themselves have little to do with today's reality.

Don't be too hard on the useless OPP. They're simply doing what they've been told (unofficially of course) by their political masters. The same breed of slimy politicians suck up to Sikh criminals in B.C. (No names, but one of the sucker-uppers is an M.P., about 6'3" and bald.)

If violent native "protests" occurred anywhere else in Canada, the response would be no different. This once-respectable country is finished, done, kaput,fu##ed. Get used to it.

Right on Zog. I have a friend who is an OPP auxilary. Ironically, he also lives in Caledonia. He claims that the cops are just as frustrated as we are at the way the situation is being handled but they are being muzzled by their political masters.
As an aside, I was on Six Nations Rez today. More Caddie Escalades driving around than you can shake a stick at. Some poverty.

Kate: A'dam - I just deleted half of those comments.

Indeed you have, and should be respected for doing so.

And you seem to be intelligent enough to understand something - they are as likely to be submitted by readers from the left intent on creating comments for the purpose of smearing SDA as they are by any other drive-by.

I considered this. I even thought the first Jim's remarks were rather over-the-top, even by SDA standards. Still, I suspect that not all of these readers (on this thread and others) are shills from the left, and I think that you know this as well. I'm not saying you purposefully cater to these extremists on the right. You certainly are capable of censoring them on occasion. But have you ever asked yourself why SDA attracts such individuals when other self-described political blogs do not?

You must not get out much.

I'll add as well - there aren't many blogs in Canada that average 16,000 visits a day. Until you find a comparable one that allows comments at all, attempts to compare this site with others are kind of pointless. Before you can get comments, you have to have readers.

Yukon Gold: The racism exhibited here is just as bad as what comes out of the mouths of the protesters, but you seem to have no problem stomaching those.

A. Cooper: Well A'dam (with the aimless apostrophe), while you're chastising others would you care to adress [sic] the comments made by Chief Lawrence Joseph on the Gormley show this morning?

Don't worry, the next time I have audience with either Chief Joseph or Mr. Brant, I'll be sure to chastise them too.

In the meantime, what exactly is your argument here? That "If they're racist, then we get to be racist too"? Is this some sort of race to the bottom of the gutter?

Well, apparently the ABoriginals' rights to break the laws without suffering any consequences have now been well established, especially in Ontario. Now how about the rest of us UNboriginals?? Do we get to adopt the same sort of tactics when we have an axe to grind with the government? Will we be met with the same sort of hands-off, kid-gloves treatment? Only in your wildest dreams, I would guess.

What a frickn' joke our system has become.

Jon: I guess in your world no one can reference stereotypes? I guess that Italians don't eat spaghetti, join the mafia and cheat at soccer? Do the French not eat cheese?

Um, that would depend entirely on the context in which one's words are spoken. Factually pointing out that Bernardo Provenzano is Italian is one thing, angrily calling the entire Italian-Canadian community a bunch of mobsters just because the Little Italy Food Festival has caused inconvenient traffic diversions is another. Seriously, did you really need this difference explained to you?

Incidentally, the tenor of this thread has changed noticeably since Kate intervened at 10:07am. Interesting, don't you think?

So A'dam how is threatening to blockade Casino Rama 'violent' or 'perpetuating stereotypes'? It is the exact same type of action that the indians perpetrated on 401 today. Tit for Tat I say. See what happens to the protests when the financial spout is turned off. And who made you the arbitrator of good thought? What are you some type of bureaucrat?

adam- the little Italy food festival, carried out legitimately and with full approval of the traffic and neighbourhood boards, is no comparison to an illegal blockade of traffic and threats of violence. Kindly do not make invalid comparisons.

You are diverting the issue to pretentious moralizing and chastizing name-calling. Why are you doing this? Why aren't you focusing on the illegitimate use of force and hostage-taking by natives to - get what?

Do you approve of the illegitimate use of force and hostage-taking by a group? If yes - please explain.

A'dam, at the risk of feeding a troll, what's peaceful about armed men blocking highways and rail lines? Or is it ok so long as they are from a visible minority?

You cherry pick your quotes, too. You sure enough caught the one where I called the Mohawk Warriors a bunch of drunks. I've called them worse. You missed the part in the same comment where I said most Indians have as much use for the Mohawk Warriors as I do. They are a gang criminals, nothing more.

Your morally superior tone is ironic given your intellectual dishonesty. I am not a racist sir, and shame upon you for saying otherwise.

Louise: Section 83.01(1)(b) of what act?

Bill C-36 "An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Official Secrets Act, the Canada Evidence Act, the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Act and other Acts, and to enact measures respecting the registration of charities in order to combat terrorism", commonly referred to as the Anti-Terrorism Act.

You can read the quoted passage in context here:

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Parl=37&Ses=1&Mode=1&Pub=Bill&Doc=C-36_4&File=42#6

"Don't worry, the next time I have audience with either Chief Joseph or Mr. Brant, I'll be sure to chastise them too."

That's an interesting comment.

I wonder what's stopping you? There are lots of Indian blogs and forums where you could be doing just that - engaging and chastising native participants for their anti-white bigotry and support of those who use violence and intimidation to achieve political goals.

Instead you settle in here, and tell us what you would do, if you know ... just had the opportunity.

Of course, you do have the opportunity. It's just a click or two away. The truth is that if you truly believed all forms of racism to be equally repulsive, you'd already be engaging them. But you're not.

For all your criticism and moral superiority over the knuckledragging rednecks that supposedly frequent this site, you still recognize that this is the safer traffic to play in.

Sounds like a fine example of civil disobedience to me.

No doubt any civil disobedience to aid robbing Peter to pay Paul would fall within one of your "fine examples".

Is your name Paul?

[ I'll add as well - there aren't many blogs in Canada that average 16,000 visits a day. Until you find a comparable one that allows comments at all, attempts to compare this site with others are kind of pointless. Before you can get comments, you have to have readers.] Kate, 2:42pm

Exactly !!

You will not find a comparable blog.

Considering the extremely high volume at sda, readers and commenters, it is a wonder that Kate is able to maintain her blog at such a high standard.

And our beloved media ??? Biased, slanted, guilty by omission and out right dishonest. And that is just the front page #$%!! After that there is rigged polls.

Joe B:

"Perhaps the protesters should dam up the Columbia river."

This has been done at Mica Creek and Revelstoke and now provides power generation for the province of BC.

The Dept. of Indian and Northern affairs, as ET's analysis bears out, has morphed over to a South African graft of apartheid. It would have to count as the most racist document in the federal bureaucracy.

Perhaps the protesters do have a legitimate point, though ineloquently expressed.

When you have 800 land claims sitting idle over some 40 odd years of more or less liberal government; one can understand some of the native impatience is legitimate. The native issues however aren't all one sided.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has attempted to begin a new process to resolve some of these issues under Minister Prentice. I would say it is a little early in the process to be demonstrating in the streets when the ink is still drying.

The land claims 'log jam' hasn't just appeared out of nowhere. It has arisen due to 40 years of neglect and the development of a 'culture of entitlement' both among the bureaucrats and the natives.

As ET correctly points out, the problem is structural in nature and structural in its solution.

Cheers

Hans-Christian Georg Rupprecht BGS, PDP, CFP

Commander in Chief

2nd Squadron: Ulanen-(Lancers) Regiment Großherzog Friedrich von Baden(Rheinisches) Nr.7(Saarbrucken)

Frankenstein Battalion

Knecht Rupprecht Division

Hans Corps

1st Saint Nicolaas Army

Army Group “True North”

Kate: There are lots of Indian blogs and forums where you could be doing just that - engaging and chastising native participants for their anti-white bigotry...The truth is that if you truly believed all forms of racism to be equally repulsive, you'd already be engaging them. But you're not.

Fair point. The "left"--myself included--could indeed do better in condemning racism wherever it occurs.

Which makes yours an interesting comment too, Kate, tantamount to an actual admission that SDA does indeed host anti-Native bigotry.

After all, the failure to adequately censure the anti-white bigotry expressed in Native (and other) blogs in no way justifies or detracts from the myriad forms of bigotry (against Natives and others) expressed almost daily here.

The Phantom: I am not a racist sir, and shame upon you for saying otherwise.

I never called you a racist. I said your comment invoked racial stereotypes. Alluding to the old "Indians-as-drunks" image was a racist thing to do, and still is. That you apply that stereotype to a mere "gang of criminals" matters not at all, nor does it matter that you contrast the Mohawk protesters with other, supposedly more upstanding Indians.

Try this, Phantom: print out this page, show your comment to "other Indians," and see whether they think it's racist or not.

the sociopathic perpsectives proudly proclaimed above make me absolutely sick to my stomach. i just can't imagine that anyone would dare to utter such profoundly racist, violent and evil thoughts. are there no christians who post here?

thankfully kate has admonished her posters for the obvious blood-lust they seem intent on exhibiting and has even censored some (with the lame canard that "leftists" are trying to give her site a bad name). unfortunately, in light of the comments that have made it past her moderation, i cannot even begin to imagine the depths of depravity contained within the censored posts.

a'dam: thank you for restoring some of my faith in humanity that was lost reading this thread. perhaps, some will ruminate on your views and will rein in their hatred, intolerance and murderous appeals.

"These natives have nothing to be upset about. There are no injustices save for those created by their own leadership."

the last residential school in canada closed in 1996...11 years ago. this was a program that took first nations children out of their cultural group, to be raised by another group. this in and of itself is defined as genocide under the UN convention. these children suffered the most horrific abuse imaginable by the state and the religious denominations administering the system. none were spared this historic traumatization that has led to epidemic rates of compex PTSD and BPD with all the familiar consequences: suicide rates ranging from 1000% to 10000% the canadian average, sexual abuse affecting 60-80% of children, levels of domestic violence unheard of in canadian society, interpersonal violence of the most horrific kind in response to the most insignificant slight due to the smouldering rage many have felt since childhood but don't understand b/c there traumatization has never been dealt with, rampant substance abuse of anykind to numb the pain and suffering and the inability to cope with this trauma, and the hopelessness of being raised in such a toxic environment where all of the aforementioned occurs in a setting where employment is unavailable to most, where housing is unsafe and cramped with families of 15 living in a 500 sq foot "house" (read: shack), where running water does not exist nor is the water gatherd by hand safe to consume. these are the conditions that have been imposed upon them through a system that has systematically brutalized individuals, families and communities leading to the all too predictable abovementioned results of this historic intergenerational traumatization. this is what today is about: AWARENESS! if canadians remain unaware of this national embarassment, it will continue unabated. it is important to note, that the head of an addictions treatment center has reported that 100% of aboriginals seeking treatment self-disclosed childhood sexual abuse as the primary cause of their alcoholism.

to lack empathy for this situation is to lack humanity. all that is required is awareness. awareness leads to empathy, which leads to understanding.

how this is to be addressed is up for debate. ET suggested a wholesale dismantling of the reserve system, as Pierre Trudeau argued. i disagree, but nevertheless am heartened that some here are seeking solutions, as opposed to merely chanting racial epithets and calling for first nations peoples to be murdered. such dehumanizing rhetoric and incitement of violence is sub-human. indeed, it is the language of tyrants!

CTV poll (gone horribly wrong???)

Do you support the Assembly of First Nations' National Day of Action?


Yes 2252 votes (23 %)

No 7710 votes (77 %)


Total Votes: 9962

I wonder if A apostrophe dam, will he give up his racial stereotype of Indians as victims?

(A'dam, could I ask to you focus your arguments on the positions taken by other commenters here, per se, rather than on the mechanism of SDA that provides a vehicle that supports free speech within the bounds of the law. To the degree that you complain about the medium, rather than the messages of individual participants, you are, I think, in the current context, wasting our time and insulting those of us who are Friends of SDA and yet don't behave in the fashion you are criticizing, or to put it in the vernacular, tarring with too broad a brush.)

In my opinion, any treaty or statute that is about Indians or any other so-called race, and any clause of any statute that mentions Indians or any other so-called race, is prima facie racist; ergo it should be abrogated and stricken from the statutes.

How can we possibly get rid of the last vestiges of racism in our society when pieces of racist history remain still encoded in our statutes?

ET: the little Italy food festival, carried out legitimately and with full approval of the traffic and neighbourhood boards, is no comparison to an illegal blockade of traffic and threats of violence. Kindly do not make invalid comparisons.

[Sigh] I wasn't comparing the Little Italy festival to the Native protester blockade, ET. I was rebutting Jon's comment by pointing out that resorting to hostile racial stereotypes (of either Italians or Native Canadians) is poor form under any circumstances.

Do you approve of the illegitimate use of force and hostage-taking by a group? If yes - please explain.

I believe that the Native protesters engaged in the blockade broke the law, and should face the consequences of that. I understand Shawn Brant is prepared to voluntarily turn himself into police custody.

I believe that sometimes it's necessary to break the law for the purpose of drawing attention to one's cause, if one perceives that s/he has exhausted all lawful avenues for recourse. I disapprove of the taking up of arms by protesters in this blockade, which is a statement of aggression, but I also understand and sympathize with the sentiment behind why they chose to do so.

I would disapprove of hostage-taking, had such a thing taken place. Diverting traffic for a few hours hardly counts. The Ontario public was not "taken hostage" by this protest. Surely you, who no doubt would be loathe to play the "victim card," can agree on that.

it is important to note, that the head of an addictions treatment center has reported that 100% of aboriginals seeking treatment self-disclosed childhood sexual abuse as the primary cause of their alcoholism.

There's always excuses for one's behaviour. Leftards are enablers of those excuses.

i'm sick of this shit. 10 billion a year, no taxes free land. enough. you threaten us with guns and we wilol shoot back. just remember as an indian you are outnumbered 30 to 1, without the pc whiners and apologists.

I set up CanadaComments (dot com, dot ca, dot org and dot net) in 2003 in the anticipation that so-called "blog software" would evolve to the point where it would be easy to administer and also allow a self-governed system of post ranking/voting based on an algorithm - i.e., taking into account posters' history, reactions to posters' contribution, quantity of posts, replies to posts, etc.

Spend some time at slashdot.org to see how the current "state-of-the-art" user-moderated forums functions.

It's a bit complicated to understand at first.

Paul

Oops. If you check WHOIS for my sites you'll be told that I'm in Montreal. Gotta fix that, I'm now in Calgary.

Vitruvius: It would also be nice if the true Friends of SDA were to take Kate's lead and be more vocal in the future in condemning bigotry of the type expressed earlier in this thread.

But I understand your point.

In my opinion, any treaty or statute that is about Indians or any other so-called race, and any clause of any statute that mentions Indians or any other so-called race, is prima facie racist; ergo it should be abrogated and stricken from the statutes.

Such treaties or statutes that mention Indians are prima facie racial, but not necessarily (nor is it in fact) racist. Moreover, this "racial" attribute is not necessarily (nor is it in fact) hostile. First Nations groups enjoy special status in our constitutional documents for a very legitimate reason. And until we move the entire discussion on the "Native question" from mere land claims, reserve conditions, and funding conflicts to genuine Native self-determination, we will not be addressing the root issue under contention.

ol hoss - exactly - will adam give up his racial stereotype of natives as 'victims'? Apart from the fact that he even defines them as a separate 'race'. Adam - there's no such thing as 'race'; we are all one species.

canuckistanian - stop using the 'sociopathic' and 'depths of depravity' adjectives - which don't apply here. They may help define you as a Noble White Man but that's about all.

I believe the last residential school was closed in 1986. Whatever the faults of residential schools, and they were completely wrong - they can't be defined as 'genocide'.

Furthermore, you can't offload all the problems within native groups on residential schools. That's naive and completely wrong.

I suggest that a basic problem is attempting to maintain the natives as a collective - via the reserve system. This sets them up as a 'caste' in Canadian society - a people whose economy and mode of life are completely outside of the mainstream economy and sociopolitical life. One group embedded within another group- but the native group is expected to live in a different mode (non-industrial) and paid to do so. The silly thing is that both sides think 'this is what they want'.

This would be valid ONLY if they could maintain their original lifestyle (hunting and gathering). They can't. It's over; their populations are too large - and you can't maintain a H&G economy on a reserve. You require a large land base - and a migratory lifestyle. Not settled.

Then - essentially defining the reserve AS IF it were a commune, with no individual property rights, no individual gain from work - and you've set up a society doomed to failure. The suicides, the abuse - are due to this - that the individuals in this collective have no economic or political function. They are a 'kept people'.

Get rid of the notion of utopian H&G lifestyles in the modern era. You can't have such an economy and lifestyle in the modern world. And, neither the natives nor the gov't should expect it.

Get rid of the reserves and the band. Give each adult a one-time only settlement and education vouchers - and that's it.
Get rid of that monstrosity, the dept of indian affairs.

Look - everyone in history has been overrun by other peoples at some time. Check out the history of England, France, Germany etc, etc. To try to set up a group - operating in an economic mode that was functional 5,000 years ago - but is no longer functional - and isolate them on a 'reserve' is like putting animals in a zoo. It's over.

And the natives have to realize it first - and get cracking to be individuals, with a native past (just like others have a Scots past, a Czech past, a Finnish past..etc, etc)..

The time for empathy is also over. The time for pragmatic action is here.

adam - I disagree with your comments, which i see as condescending and patronizing.

Why should 'First nations' 'enjoy special status'? Why is the reason 'legitimate'? And I strongly reject your suggestion of 'native self-determination'. You are keeping them as a 'caste', as a 'race' - who must 'self-determine' as that collective, their future. That's terrible.

These are people - to be viewed, not as a Bunch, not as a Group, but as individuals. The whole problem that has arisen- is that they have been viewed as a collective - and you are continuing that perspective. That is racist - as vitrivius correctly point out - and you simply don't understand this.

And blockading traffic most certainly does count as an act of hostage taking. You are slithering and changing the meaning to have it refer only to the WHOLE Ontario public. Does someone who takes the people of one plane hostage not count as a hostage-taker because he hasn't taken the whole nation hostage? They were taking all travellers of those roads hostage. Don't slither out of reality and try to excuse their illegal behaviour.

You are slithering out of answering questions by moving to the abstract (sometimes necessary to break the law). Can you show us what exactly the natives are protesting about - and what they want - and why they expect the gov't to 'do it all'?

Remember - the corruption of reserves is due to their own making; they want the reserve system to continue - yet it is what is causing the degeneration of their communities!

Native self-determination - what rubbish. What a racist statement. They are human beings - and your insistence on defining them as a 'race' or collective - doesn't help.

Canuckistanian, the indian schools were a dismal attempt to try to bring the aboriginals into the main stream of society. Though this attempt, fraught with all kinds of abuse, lasted a few hundred years it still was a considerable and extensive effort to force cultural change and it failed to achieve its goals.

We are still left with a fast growing population of natives on reserves that still wants to retain its old tribal hunter/gather ways. As ET and others have posted, whether its Africa, the Middle East or Australia, these cultures can not be maintained anymore. In each and every case pouring money and liberal thinking into these tribes leads to dependency and the same destructive social chaos that Howard in Australia is trying to fix. All the problems you outlined exist because of these policies. Every tax dollar Canada produces could be spent on these reserves and nothing would change. This change can only be done by the natives themselves. The successful bands are making this change and moving forward, not sliding backward.

These reserves, many inaccessible and on marginal land far from roads and communications, can not be sustained. The natives don't care to maintain the water treatment plants and through neglect the homes deteriorate because they don't have to, the government will fix it. Their school attendance hovers around the 60% mark. The reserves and the Department of Indian affairs, which is like a UN boondoogle, must be dismantled. A cash settlement with each Indian made and that is the end of it. IMHO there is no other choice.

Alas, A'dam, I explictily disagree with your perscription. I don't think that any references to the so-called notion of race belong in our statutes. A hundred years ago women couldn't vote, yet we struck that notion from our statutes.

No non-volitional group, as you put it, should enjoy special status, as you put it, in our society. Either we as individual human beings are equal upon principle, or we are not, and if we are not, then they are either greater or less than we. Who would say such a thing about any individual just because they are a non-volitional member of a so-called race? Why are Indians required, under your scheme, to express Native self determination? Shouldn't they be allowed and required, just like the rest of us, to express individual self determination? If they then want to join some sort of Indian cultural club, well, that's certainly allowed under clause 2(c) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Consider this Usage Note from the American Heritage dictionary entry on race:

"The notion of race is nearly as problematic from a scientific point of view as it is from a social one. European physical anthropologists of the 17th and 18th centuries proposed various systems of racial classifications based on such observable characteristics as skin color, hair type, body proportions, and skull measurements, essentially codifying the perceived differences among broad geographic populations of humans. The traditional terms for these populations—Caucasoid (or Caucasian), Mongoloid, Negroid, and in some systems Australoid—are now controversial in both technical and nontechnical usage, and in some cases they may well be considered offensive. (Caucasian does retain a certain currency in American English, but it is used almost exclusively to mean “white” or “European” rather than “belonging to the Caucasian race,” a group that includes a variety of peoples generally categorized as nonwhite.)

"The biological aspect of race is described today not in observable physical features but rather in such genetic characteristics as blood groups and metabolic processes, and the groupings indicated by these factors seldom coincide very neatly with those put forward by earlier physical anthropologists. Citing this and other points—such as the fact that a person who is considered black in one society might be nonblack in another—many cultural anthropologists now consider race to be more a social or mental construct than an objective biological fact."

Now, consider this speech given by Abraham Lincoln on July 10, 1858...

"Those arguments that are made, that the inferior race are to be treated with as much allowance as they are capable of enjoying; that as much is to be done for them as their condition will allow. What are these arguments? They are the arguments that kings have made for enslaving the people in all ages of the world. You will find that all the arguments in favor of king-craft were of this class; they always bestrode the necks of the people, not that they wanted to do it, but because the people were better off for being ridden.

"That is their argument, and this argument of the Judge is the same old serpent that says you work and I eat, you toil and I will enjoy the fruits of it. Turn in whatever way you will -- whether it come from the mouth of a King, an excuse for enslaving the people of his country, or from the mouth of men of one race as a reason for enslaving the men of another race, it is all the same old serpent, and I hold if that course of argumentation that is made for the purpose of convincing the public mind that we should not care about this, should be granted, it does not stop with the negro.

"I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle and making exceptions to it where will it stop. If one man says it does not mean a negro, why not another say it does not mean some other man? If that declaration is not the truth, let us get the Statute book, in which we find it and tear it out! Who is so bold as to do it! [Voices -- me" "no one," &c.] If it is not true let us tear it out! [cries of "no, no,"] let us stick to it then, [cheers] let us stand firmly by it then. [Applause.]"

So that's it, A'dam. If you think that Indians aren't equal upon principle to the rest of us, if you think that they should not be subject to the same participations, rewards, and punishments that our society confers on all our other citizens, then I ask you two questions: (1) is it because they are greater than us or because they are less than us, and (2) how dare you treat Indians and non-Indians like that?

The problem with the "civil disobedience" argument advanced by A'dam is that the protesters aren't engaging in civil disobedience, which would ordinarily be defined as the _peaceable_ resistance to a given government's commands or a specific law. Using an armed band to interfere with a provincial highway and rail transport very obviously falls into the category of "direct action," and the implied threat of force that stems from openly carrying weapons brings it perilously close to armed insurrection. They need to lose the guns.

ET: They were taking all travellers of those roads hostage.

A laughable statement. Those travelers had other roads and other routes available to them. They were demonstrably not hostages.

That is racist - as vitrivius correctly point out - and you simply don't understand this...Native self-determination - what rubbish. What a racist statement. They are human beings - and your insistence on defining them as a 'race' or collective - doesn't help.

Does that mean that the Assembly of First Nations also doesn't understand that they're also being "racist" (against themselves?) when they seek self-governance (which I, and many others, equate with self-determination)? Because that's what they're ultimately seeking. And that transfer of power (as opposed to money) is the only long-term, self-sustaining solution to this issue.

Of course, it's a solution that neither the political establishment nor, apparently, folks here (and to be fair, most of the Canadian public at present) have to date been willing to concede. The only difference is that while the Government of Canada attempts to offer Native groups money (in lieu of real power of self-determination), you are unwilling to offer them even that.

David Hand, how do you reconcile this statement...

the indian schools were a dismal attempt to try to bring the aboriginals into the main stream of society

...with this one...

As ET and others have posted, whether its Africa, the Middle East or Australia, these cultures can not be maintained anymore?

Both the residential schools and your latter statement are predicated on an assumption that the Aboriginal way of life was (is) inferior to, and now archaic in light of, the Western model.

Vitruvius: (1) is it because they are greater than us or because they are less than us?

Not greater nor lesser, but distinct nevertheless, for unique and exceptional historical reasons.

(2) how dare you treat Indians and non-Indians like that?

I dare because the AFN, and many other groups whom the AFN considers as her supporters, allies, and partners, dares.

mcgrimm: They need to lose the guns.

This is true.

"Both the residential schools and your latter statement are predicated on an assumption that the Aboriginal way of life was (is) inferior to, and now archaic in light of, the Western model."

It is. Not a value judgement. Just a statement of fact, demonstrated by the fact that it no longer exists.

No, A'dam, Indians are not distinct, qua citizenry, they are no more or less unique than any other non-volitional taxonomization, for normal and unexceptional historical reasons.

Yes, A'dam, I do think that the Assembly of First Nations doesn't understand that they're being racist against themselves when they seek mandatory non-volitional collectivism over their claimed taxonomical labelling scheme. We are not labels; we are real live individual human beings.

Stop telling us who to be, A'dam. Let each live as each, subject to their strengths and weaknesses, with appropriate altruistic charatable considerations amongst all. Be not, A'dam, a totalitarian authoritarian who would dictate to we the people a classist taxonomy we must obey.

The road to utopia is paved with tombstones.

The detour around that disaster is called minarchist meritocracy.

"I dare because the AFN, and many other groups whom the AFN considers as her supporters, allies, and partners, dares."

So, how's that been working for them?

adam - you may laugh, but if a traveller is forced to use a different route - whether shorter or longer, familiar or unfamiliear, is not the point by someone blocking a PUBLIC road - that's taking those people hostage to your agenda. It is using them to make the gov't do something. That's hostage-taking - using people to make someone else do something.

You are, as usual, adam, slithering out of answering. I - and vitruvius has said it far, far better than I - was pointing out that your definition of natives as a collective was denying each individual native their human identity as an individual. You see them only as a collective - and see their activity only as a collective, eg, Native 'self-determination' - which suggests some kind of separate species.

The fact that the Assembly of First Nations talks in this mode doesn't justify it. Self-governance? You think it means the same as 'self-determination'? No - self-determination, again, suggests an a priori genetic Causal Force, specific to that 'race' that must be 'expressed'. Nonsense.

As for self-governance - since I am advocating the end of the reserve system, with its rejection of private ownership of property and business, then - self-governance of that territory doesn't apply.

No, transference of power won't do it. You need MONEY, adam. And the reserves are set up so that they can't MAKE MONEY. OK?

You don't understand that a communist commune - where no-one is allowed to own property or goods, won't function in the modern industrial society. The native band populations are too large - and industrialism functions by individual innovation and hard work.

You can sit in your chief's chair, and have all the power you want. But, without an ECONOMY, adam, your words are hollow and empty. So, adam, how are you going to enable the economy on reserves? Hmmm?

Vitruvius:

Please do not re-write history so selectively. Lincoln also said this:

I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people ...

In any case, it's simply disingenuous to racialize a group of people and then complain about the need for "colour-blindness" when they assume the identity that has been imposed upon them.

adam - you are living in a romantic Noble Savage utopian world - and obviously have no understanding of basic economics and social organization.

The native people are NOT a distinct 'race' or 'people'. They are, like us, human beings. Individuals. Treating them as if they were a unique species is racism; you, adam, are racist.

You don't understand that their original economic mode IS inferior to the current socioeconomic mode. Do you know why? Because it can't sustain a population larger than a few hundred; indeed, the optimum size of a H&G band is about 30.

So, the 'aboriginal way of life' is both inferior to, and archaic to, the modern way. Understand this - there is NO WAY that a native band can, now, live in 'the old way'. Their population size is too large; their land base is too small - H&G require massive land bases - and they are settled. You can't live in a house and live 'the old way' economically. Adam - you simply don't understand the difference between the two modes; you are thinking in the romantic, naive notion of The Noble Savage.

Move out of that - and start to think pragmatically. Ask - how many people can X-economic system sustain? What is the lifestyle of such an economy? Is private ownership a requirement? etc.

Oh - and why should they live the way they lived 1,000 years ago? Why should they live this way - rather than being part of the modern world - industrial engineers, physicists, doctors and so on? Why shouldn't they live in the modern world?

Do you think that their 'self-determination' is to live The Old Way again? Why? It's impossible now. Do you expect us to go back to the horse and buggy days - or chariots - or, or, or?

Again - a collectivist mode of economic and social life is impossible in the modern economy. Why do you insist on a people living that way?

Re-write history? Good heavens, it was just a famous quote in support of my argument, which was about racism, not Lincoln. Relax, Dawg. Sit.

Traditional Indian culture was neolithic. It had no wheel. It had no metals. I don't think that modern Indians should be denied those subsequent developments.

This might be a good time for folks to review these two articles about Chief and Chief Executive Officer Clarance Louie of the Osoyous tradition, who like Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Chris Rock, and Bill Cosby, understands that one stands on one's accomplishments, not on the handouts (well intentioned though they may be) one receives in the name of some aggreviance.

tinyurl.com/hn474 - Indian Time Doesn't Cut It, Globe & Mail

Ah, apparently the second link I was going to post is no longer available, so perhaps, Kate, if you will pardon me, because it is directly relevent and not otherwise available, here is the original article:

Ruffling Feathers

by Andrew Findlay

B C Business Magazine

June 2006

In a small boardroom on the second floor of the Metropolitan Hotel on Howe Street, Clarence Louie, the maverick chief of the Osoyoos Indian Band, is doing what he is often asked to do these days. That is, talk to First Nations bands about how to evolve from a culture of dependence into a bastion of independence and entrepreneurship.

"I won't go to a meeting these days unless it has to do with creating jobs and making money," Louie announces bluntly to a small gathering of band councillors and administrators from the Saulteau First Nation near Moberly Lake in northern B.C. "I spend my time on economic development and I don't care what you say; everything costs money. Even our traditional ceremonies cost money."

It's the first and last time you'll hear this renowned (No. 40 on Maclean's 2003 Watch List of Canadians) First Nations business leader utter the word "tradition" during his PowerPoint presentation, but you'll quickly lose count of the number of references to "economic development." In his neat blazer, pressed black trousers and wire-rimmed glasses, he could be mistaken for a Fraser Institute pundit. Before an audience, Louie is a formidable and brazen speaker who isn't afraid to push buttons. In private, he is serious, intense and straightforward, with a penetrating gaze and an extremely quick mind.

He's been accused by his own kind of sacrificing traditional First Nations culture and values at the altar of capitalism, yet under his leadership his band built the beautiful Nk'Mip Desert and First Nations Heritage Centre which does just that - promotes aboriginal culture. Nobody - First Nations or otherwise - is immune to his critical gaze. In one breath he'll dismiss the federal department of Indian affairs as an inept bureaucracy that has perpetuated a First Nations welfare state. In the next, he'll chide fellow aboriginals who claim to be following the "red road" (adhering to traditional values and spirituality) while collecting a social assistance cheque.

Truth is, the 46-year-old's pro-business views are grounded in a belief that the only way forward for First Nations is to break the cycle of poverty and dependence on government handouts - that have plagued his people since the Indian Act became law in 1876 - through self-sufficiency and economic development. His track record as chief of the 420-strong Osoyoos Indian Band, now in his 22nd year, has garnered attention around Canada and abroad. The accolades are nice, and Louie's got the financial cred to back it.

The Osoyoos Indian Band Development Corp. currently owns nine businesses, with annual revenues topping $13 million, including the award-winning Nk'Mip Cellars, the first First Nations-owned winery in the world. Every Christmas, 12 per cent of profits are distributed to band members. In 2005, more than 1,000 First Nations and non-First Nations were employed by OIB businesses and joint ventures. That same year, OIB Holdings generated nearly $2 million in lease payments from non-First Nations companies such as Calgary-based Bellstar Hotels & Resorts, which is putting the finishing touches on a four-star property - Spirit Ridge Vineyard Resort and Spa - on the shores of Lake Osoyoos.

Not too shabby for a band that has fewer members than your average urban high school has students.

"Anyone who has been in town for more than five minutes knows about him," says CJ Rhodes, president of the Osoyoos Chamber of Commerce.

Brett Sweezy is the Sandpoint, Idaho-based president of Winter Recreation, ULC, the parent company of Mount Baldy Ski Corp. When the outfit purchased the small ski resort east of Osoyoos in 2005, Sweezy and his partners approached the Osoyoos Indian Band on whose traditional lands they were planning to build an 8,000-bed resort. After tough negotiations, Sweezy and company signed a precedent-setting agreement that gives OIB a 2.5-per-cent interest in Winter Recreation ULC, a share of revenues from real-estate development, reduced lift tickets and job opportunities for band members at the resort, as well as assurances that archeological sites and traditional land use would be respected. In exchange, the American company acquires a comfortable level of certainty that the band will support its resort plans, wisely sidestepping the thorny aboriginal land title conflicts that have deep-sixed other ventures in the past.

"I give the OIB a lot of credit because there is a lot of pressure from other First Nations not to sell out," Sweezy says over the phone from Sandpoint about the agreement he hammered out with Louie. "In our meetings with Chief Louie, there wasn't a lot of open banter. He's not afraid to point fingers and put issues on the table. He's a politician and he's always aware of how things will play out with his council."

On several occasions Sweezy has had the unenviable task of following Louie on the speakers' list at various conferences and meetings. "I'll only speak before him now; otherwise nobody will listen," Sweezy says with a chuckle, giving a nod to Louie's prowess at the podium.

In an article published by the online journal Indian Country Today, Ed Romanowski, CEO of Bellstar Hotels & Resorts, says outside investment on Osoyoos band property is attractive because Louie and the OIB have demonstrated that "their word is their deed."

The OIB's economic profile has been "an inspiration for many bands," but it's not necessarily a model that can be applied across the board, says Stewart Phillip, chief of the Penticton Indian Band and current president of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs. "Some bands simply don't have the same economic opportunities."

Certainly, the OIB is blessed by its proximity to a relatively vibrant business environment in the south Okanagan, and it doesn't fault other First Nations for focusing on the treaty process to gain a share of resource revenue from the province. However, he's convinced the principles of self-sufficiency are sound.

But the doorway to change hasn't always swung open easily for Louie. It's taken a lot of debate, disagreement and frank self-reflection among a people Louie says are too often fixated on looking to right past wrongs and sticking Band-Aids on nagging social issues such as alcoholism, drug abuse and family strife. "I like dealing in reality," he says. "I'm not saying that everybody agrees with me. A lot of elders still hold up the British flag and talk about promises made a hundred years ago. Personally, I don't have any faith in the Queen."

Louie was born in Oliver in 1960 and at the age of 18, he enrolled in Native American studies at the University of Saskatchewan, eventually completing his degree in Lethbridge. In 1984, at age 24, he was recruited to run for chief of the Osoyoos band. He won his first campaign and hasn't looked back since. When he first took over the council reins he walked into a stereotypically dysfunctional band preoccupied with running Department of Indian Affairs (since renamed Indian and Northern Affairs) social programs and crippled by rampant nepotism, acrimonious band politics and social problems. The single band-owned business, a vineyard started in 1968, limped along year after year accumulating losses. Not surprisingly, he says, collectively his band was a symptom of a system the government instituted - one of welfare dependence and shoehorning bands onto marginal lands at the expense of job creation and economic development. But, he concedes, aboriginal leaders are also to blame, too eager to become the servants of federal programs instead of real advocates for change. "Any time we can kick DIA out of our business, we do it," he says.

Today Louie's vision is still a work in progress, but the streamlined corporate environment at the OIB is a far cry from the dysfunctional place he walked into two decades ago. It's no picnic working under Louie's watch. Some of his HR concepts don't exactly mesh with supposedly enlightened business models, where every day is a casual Friday. It's not unusual to see small banners with slogans like, "If your life sucks, it means you suck," or "A real warrior supports himself and others," tacked to the walls of the band office. His council recently decided to install clocks at the band council and OIBDC offices to curtail truancy, and strict rules guard against the kind of nepotism that is common on Indian reserves where sisters supervise brothers and the chief hires his wife to do the books. Surprisingly, there's not a single member of a First Nation on the OIBDC's board of directors because, Louie says, business isn't about race - it's about expertise. "There's a group of natives that feels entitled, and that needs to be changed to a culture of performance," he says. "You don't hand over the keys to a multi-million-dollar business to someone who hasn't earned it. That's a recipe for bankruptcy."

It's time for Louie to wrap up his PowerPoint. He has a plane to catch back to the Okanagan. These days he doesn't get too misty-eyed over First Nations spirituality and traditions. In his briefcase, along with his books on First Nations history and politics, he has a set of custom door handles for his kids' Hummer that he picked up at a Vancouver car dealer. (As he's fond of saying, there's no culture in poverty.)

"Our people have the worst social statistics in Canada and our leaders have allowed this to go on for 100 years. I've never bought that stuff about natives being non-competitive. Throwing the best potlatch required accumulating a certain amount of wealth," he says as he snaps his briefcase closed.

Clearly, Chief Louie didn't get to where he is today by mincing words.

ET said:

"The time for empathy is also over. The time for pragmatic action is here."

call me crazy, but i don't think those two things are mutually exclusive ;-). i wholeheartedly agree that it is long past time for pragmatic action. nevertheless, i question if we will, as a society, be able to change the status quo by implementing pragmatic solutions without having empathy for the plight of first nations peoples. i suppose you could be correct nonetheless, as the frustration building in canadian society may also provide the necessary impetus to begin implementing pragmatic solutions. regards.

Traditional Indian culture was neolithic. It had no wheel. It had no metals.

And it (of course, there is no "it" but a variety of different cultures) had bigger, cleaner, more hygienic cities than Europe did at the same time (Tenochtitlan and Tlatelolco). Not to mention being the source for the "checks and balances" notion in the American Constitution.

It did have metals, btw. Just not steel. Too bad.

testing, testing...does this sucka work?

keeps eating some of my posts???

let me try this one more time...see if this works.

ET said:

"canuckistanian - stop using the 'sociopathic' and 'depths of depravity' adjectives - which don't apply here"

sociopathic (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sociopathic):
1) "of or relating to a sociopathic personality disorder
2) sociopath - One who is affected with a personality disorder marked by antisocial behavior."

depravity (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/depravity):
"1) a degenerate act or practice
2) moral perversion; impairment of virtue and moral principles;"

having checked the dictionary definitions of the terms you took exception to, i can confidently state that the abovementioned racist comments were:
a) an example of antisocial behaviour
b) a clear example of a degenerate act

whether this was:
a) due to an "abnormal personality disorder" is debatable
and
b) due to the "impairment of virtue and moral principles" is also debatable.

nevertheless, i do stand by my previous choice of words. regards.

canuckistanian: "this in and of itself is defined as genocide under the UN convention"

This "lo the poor Indian crap" is the root of a huge percentage of their problems with "whitey" and with each other.

My perspective on residential schools is a bit different from most for two reasons:
1) In the bad old days, I worked in the bush with several natives who had attended the school at Fort Resolution. Far from being traumatized by their experience, they sometimes reminisced about it, in the same terms as anyone of any colour who had attended a church-run boarding school. Having attended one myself (I came from an isolated rural area where there were no schools) I could relate to their anecdotes.

2) I know for a fact that plenty of northern native families voluntarily sent their kids to the residentials because they realized that education - even if it was only basic literacy, was necessary in the modern world. These literate kids grew up to encourage their offspring to become better educated and so on, through the generations, so that we now have Indian lawyers and politicians beating whitey at his own game. Genocide? Bullshit!!! The schools were a door into the 20th century.

Some of the wiser 19th century elders actually pleaded with the government for schools to be established on their reservations, and some of those schools morphed into residential schools.

At that time? Are you interested in the present and the future, Dawg, or are you mired in the past?

A'dam,self-governance does not equate self-determination when the bands still depend on tax dollars for thier livelihood. Self-government means to the bands that they get the tax dollars but do not have to explain where the monies are spent. Most members are against this concept. That invariably will lead to more corruption. I am all for handing over money for education as long as the parents will make thier children attend. That is not happening,mom and dad(maybe),are waiting for the land claim jackpot to be handed over and heap disdain on "whitey's school".The reserves have a housing crisis but do you ever hear Fontaine et al tell the young women to practice responsible family planning?It is very difficult to give a hand-out or a hand-up when your fingers are being bitten.

Zog:

i certainly wouldn't dispute your anecdotes, nor would i characterize my own view as "This 'lo the poor Indian crap'". hopefully, once kate gets around to moderating my previous posts wherein i outline the UN definition of genocide, you will have a better understanding of my perspective. regards.

That's dishonest, Vittie. You were the one referring to that "neolithic" nonsense.

canuck, you kept trying to post multiple links in the same comment, and that's a sure spam filter git-me sign.

kate,

thanks for the heads up. i posted the websites addresses from where i got some info (not sure how to link something). you think if i take out the links it will get-thru the spam filter.

You're in no position to accuse others of dishonesty, Dawg.

ET said:

"I believe the last residential school was closed in 1986. Whatever the faults of residential schools, and they were completely wrong - they can't be defined as 'genocide'."

according to the Government of Canada:

"the last federally-run residential school in Canada closed in 1996."

according to the United Nations Convention on Genocide:

"Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

as you will note, "(c)" and "(e)" are the residential schools program. the residential schools were intended to destroy the culture of the first peoples of canada, and sought to achieve this end through "transferring children of the group to another group". regards.

ET said:

"I believe the last residential school was closed in 1986. Whatever the faults of residential schools, and they were completely wrong - they can't be defined as 'genocide'."

(1) according to the Government of Canada:

"the last federally-run residential school in Canada closed in 1996."

(2) according to the United Nations Convention on Genocide:

"Article 2

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

as you will note, "(c)" and "(e)" are the residential schools program. the residential schools were intended to destroy the culture of the first peoples of canada, and sought to achieve this end through "transferring children of the group to another group". regards.

You're in no position to accuse others of dishonesty, Dawg.

Put up or shut up, Kate. I don't do dishonesty.

You cherry pick your quotes, too. You sure enough caught the one where I called the Mohawk Warriors a bunch of drunks. I've called them worse. You missed the part in the same comment where I said most Indians have as much use for the Mohawk Warriors as I do. They are a gang criminals, nothing more.

Your morally superior tone is ironic given your intellect