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April 17, 2007

Why We Mock You

In the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings, the media has questions. Really stupid questions.

They also have conclusions;

In the strongest editorialized image of the day, German cable news broadcaster NTV flashed an image of the former head of the National Rifle Association, the US gun lobby: In other words, blame rifle-wielding Charlton Heston for the 33 dead.

And, they have "experts". This one predicts copycat killings - as though the Virginia Tech shooter came up with the plan all on his own.

On CBC's The National last evening, we learned that school shootings were the result of - wait for it - the Iraq war. How many potential guests did CBC news sift through and reject in order to come up with one willing to conform to that ridiculous script? (If someone can isolate that special bit of insight for Youtube posterity, let me know ... Update - No-Libs has it now.)

Another example of pervasive, uncorrected inaccuracy - "This is media malpractice and what many would consider willful deception."


You can use this thread for other links or observations as to how media is covering this story.

Posted by Kate at April 17, 2007 9:21 AM
Comments

CBC won the A-hole of the week award for using the VT shootings to inundate views with the Canadian school shootings while ignoring a lot of pertainent info coming out of the US. Complete Bolshy mind wash coming from Mothercorpse.

CTV Cable news was surporisingly decent and in particular the gal on the "verdict" segment had US guest experts that were fairly accurate in assigning blame to the school security force and their incredibly inept bungling of the situation. In the Ms. Todd's editorial opined that the parents should launch a class action suit against VT's inept police and admin. Kudos CTC Cable news!!

CNN_ same endless on site talking head not telling us anything new or pertenent, just working the story for market share....ditto with MSNBC

FoxNews: too much opinion and they gave Camous authorities a free ride...Fox is as biased as CBC in their own way.

The GTA Dailies: G&M/Star...about what you'd expect from media with a partisan loberal agenda...all the trite old gun control talking points trotted out as lefty riolls in the blood of the victims that he creates.

Good write up in the Calgary sun.

Haven't had time to hut the conservative broadsheets but I'm watching closely to see who joins the culture of victimhood in ascribing blame to everything but the shooter and police inability to provide security.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 10:15 AM

YOU PEOPLE ARE LAUGHABLE. FROM THE CONTINENTS THAT GAVE US THE FOUR GREATEST MASS MURDERERS IN HISTORY, TAKING EVERYONE'S GUN'S AS THEIR FIRST ACT'S. LOOK AT RUSSIA RIGHT NOW. IF THERE WERE 200 MILLION GUNS IN RUSSIA PUTIN WOULD BE TOAST RIGHT NOW. GARY CONNEAUT LAKE PA.

Posted by: gary at April 17, 2007 10:25 AM

When is the CBC going to blame global warming on the Iraq war? Or the Iraq war on global warming? Sounds like a job for Neil MacDonald.

Posted by: Blackadder at April 17, 2007 10:26 AM

Re: “CBC's The National last evening, we learned that school shootings were the result of - wait for it - the Iraq war. How many potential guests did CBC news sift through and reject in order to come up with one willing to conform to that ridiculous script?”

Just one, if they have a rolodex with Michael Moore disciples.

“in his coverage of the Columbine massacre, Moore totally ignores the killers' fascination with Nazism ………and instead tries to blame Lockheed-Marietta, the prominent defense contractor. It turns out that Lockheed operates a missile plant in Littleton, Colo., not far from Columbine High, so Moore makes a feeble effort to connect this endeavor with the maniacal slaughter by two teenagers. “

Posted by: Cal at April 17, 2007 10:28 AM

What a load of nonsense!

As an American, I find it offensive that stupid Europeans have any moral highground when it comes to firearms. Blame Charleton Heston

You Europeans have a lot of nerve. Guns do not kill people, people kill people! Of course yo uall have short memories and have forgotten. European society is soooo Enlightened! Yeah right!

Truth be told, it was a foriegner who did this, not an American. Like the rest of the world, it is always easier to blame the Americans and our way or doing things.

You Europeans are fools! American guns were the only thing keeping all of you from either speaking soley German or Russian.

Well, next time you have a war on your land, You are on your own.

Idiots!

Posted by: Matthew at April 17, 2007 10:36 AM

Liberals always tend to blame veryone but the crinimals for thees vicous crimes i mean they try to blame McDonalds or Burger King for obesity they try to blame Gord or GM for traffic accedents and now the will blame the NRA or the Gun Makers for this and claim of Bill Clintons gun ban had been extended this would never have happned to liberal wussietards crinimals are never to blame its the inanimate objects and those who make them are to blame that why liberals are such idiots

Posted by: spurwing plover at April 17, 2007 10:42 AM

...rumour is the assailant was an Asian male, in one sense I'm glad he wasn't an Islamic on a jihad, otherwise we'd see the MSM tripping over themselves conjuring up new word phrases to NOT describe his religious or ethnic background.

Posted by: tomax7 at April 17, 2007 10:48 AM

My God these Euro-bolshy media hate America! The spew about how Americans have too much freedom resulting in school murders is a bit of a strech even for the most dogmatic lefty.

I have had interest in the gun control issue for quite a while and have followed the Media coverage for quite some time and 2 things in their slant are a pattern...the sensationalizing "if it bleeds, it leads" element of profiting from the gore prevails creating a "monument" the killers seek and inspires copycats...and the propensity to repropagate every demented orthodoxy and "expert" on a "cure".

The media becomes the play ground for utopians and axe grinding NGOs for several months after a criminal terror attack causing the government to act...most of the time against it's will or against the advice of its constitutional lawyers and produces some placebo legislating which creates another layer of bureaucracy and, of course, targets the wrong people or cause. Paniced, reactionary legislating to media hysteria has created some of the worst laws on the books.

Again, like the fraudulent science of GW it is the media that create hysteria on false premises and pressure governments into bad/unconstitutional/expensive legislation which proves out to be superfluous in retrospect.

I want everyone to recall that the gun laws the Canadian media screamed for from the Liberals after running a full year of hysterical blather in the wake of the Montreal shootings, was the same law they criticized for being 2000% over budget, and being worthless to stop current criminal misuse and school terror attacks...the Gill shooting at Dawson openly proved the pointlessness of existing regualtory placebos and was a virtual mirror case of the state licencing a madman like they did 18 years ago with LePine which started all the superfluous regulating in the first place.

Now the big media push is to "ban" hanguns or auto-loading handguns....a pointless endeavor as we see this is the weapon of choice for GTA gang bangers and not one of them is registered or procured legitimately. It rings as hollow as "Banning" pot or alcohol...fat chance when there is demand.

I also see the Virginia killer had a .22 rim fire "plinker" and a 9mm Ruger with the serial numbers filed off....so much for procuring them from a source where gun controls are in effect.

This fact was brought out on Fox News last night and I have YET to see it appear in the Canadian mainstream media....they all seem too focused on grinding an editorial partisan bias.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 10:48 AM

The killer was South Korean. It's at times like this you will notice the difference between a great nation and a small and backward one.

When a US serviceman is involved in a crime in South Korea, tens of thousands of Koreans hit the streets to burn the US flag.

Today, in the US, his nationality will not matter.

Posted by: chip at April 17, 2007 10:53 AM

"Gun Control" killed every single one of those victims. They had a RIGHT under the U.S. Constitution to Keep and Bear Arms, but somehow Gun Control in the form of school policy, state and federal laws forbidding defensive firearms to students made sure every last one of them were defenseless and left only to scream and cringe before they were executed.

Had they been able to exercise their Second Amendment Rights unhindered, instead of dying, they would be ALIVE and talking about that crazy South Korean they had to shoot.

The blood of these victims are on the hands of Schumer, Feinstein, Boxer, Kennedy and every other politician that violated their oath to support and defend the Constitution by voting for so-called "Gun Control."

Posted by: Move_Zig at April 17, 2007 11:00 AM

ctv.ca has the same online poll up as the globeand mail did yesterday . of course they aren't mentioning that the type of guns the freak used are already "controlled" here . semi-automatic handguns.

Posted by: john demerais at April 17, 2007 11:02 AM

I have some sympathy for the TV networks on a story like this. Print media and blogs can just print the facts but the TV networks have to fill hours of broadcast when they really only have two minutes worth of actual information. The filler will inevitably contain a large portion of idiocy and uninformed comment, since they really knew nothing about the killer or what motivated him.

Even moving on and covering the other trivial stories of the day may seem insensitive. So they try to cover the topic but quickly fidn they have nothing useful to say.

Posted by: Kevin Jaeger at April 17, 2007 11:05 AM

Blackadder -

Like I commented last night, having Neil MacDonald report on the US is something akin to having Don Cherry report on European hockey.....

Posted by: Jim at April 17, 2007 11:07 AM

It's disgusting to see the European reaction to this incident. It seems the European media is all to eager to jump to the conclusion that this is the result of "american culture" and our lax gun laws.

If they had done any research, or had any previous knowledge about gun control and murder in the U.S. they might know that between 1973-1992 gun supplies doubled in the U.S. while homicide rates remained the same.

Also, in my home state of Massachusetts we have strict gun control laws and a low muder rate. Seems like the two should correlate, but in Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire the gun laws are much more lax and there are LOWER HOMICIDE RATES!

So much for blaming it all on guns and culture. Just another opportunity for Europe to senslessley bash Americans, completley missing the point that this was a terrible tragedy.

Posted by: matt s. at April 17, 2007 11:09 AM

Now let's see. The expiration of the assault gun legislation is blamed? A semi automatic pistol (drum roll please) is NOT AN ASSAULT GUN you morons! If the sub-intellectual Eurotrash feels so strongly about handguns, then bloody well stop making so many of them! You have no right to export guns and military death weapon systems all over the world and then comment upon others as though having clean hands. You don't. You are hypocritical shallow thinking filth.

Posted by: C. Keefe at April 17, 2007 11:11 AM

...two questions remain.

1. What or where was the gunman for two hours between incidents as it is only a 10 minute walk between the two buildings. The university didn't send out emails or lockdown for another couple of hours, actually by the time it was all over. CYA?

2. Virginia Tech is a ROTC (officer's training) place, what were all our future military leaders doing? On CNN one picture has a tall ROTC guy talking to a very short ROTC lady, both in ROTC uniforms.

Guess we'll never know.

Posted by: tomax7 at April 17, 2007 11:18 AM

Can it happen on the same scale here in Canada? YES.
Will it? I don't know, but if it does,making Polytehnique look like a Sunday outing,who or what will we blame it on?

Posted by: Justthinkin at April 17, 2007 11:22 AM

BREAKING NEWS: The VT killer was a south Korean national (incapable of buying a firearm in the US or Virginia through lawful channels) who had a .22 rimfire autoloading pistol and Ruger 9MM autoloader both with the serial numbers filed off.

NOW...someone was saying something about "gun control"?

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 11:24 AM

This could never happen Europe the Good, eh?

Teen-Age Gunman Kills Himself and 12 Others in France
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=990CEFD6143AF936A1575AC0A963958260

Swiss man kills 14
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/27/newsid_2539000/2539769.stm

Germany
Steinhaueser walked into the high school he had been expelled from with two weapons and 500 rounds of ammunition. He killed 13 teachers, a police officer and two students, before turning the gun on himself.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1963777.stm

Scotland
Sixteen small children and one teacher were shot and killed inside of a school gymnasium by a lone gunman in Dunblane, Scotland,
http://www.emergency.com/scotshot.htm

Posted by: Cal at April 17, 2007 11:24 AM

It doesn't matter if his guns were registered or not. It doesn't matter where he got the guns. Criminals and mentally ill people intent on killing and using a firearm to do it have no interest in registering their guns, never will. NO amount of gun control will prevent these people from obtaining firearms. Only honest law abiding sane people will register their guns. Sane people who have legally registered their guns sometimes become mentally unstable or insane people who possess legally registered guns. That being the indisputable case, then honestly how will a gun control or even a total firearm ban ever prevent a similar tragedy. Simply answer, it won't, it can't. It is an undeniable fact that incidents like this can NEVER and will NEVER be totally preventable. All that can be done is to try and identify potential mentally unstable perpetrators before they act out their fantasy or whatever it is they determined to accomplish. I'm not a shrink but I would dare to say these sort of people exhibit suspicious behavior probably long before they commit the deed. Behaviour that somebody should notice and that should be reported to authorities. Those somebodys could be parents, friends, a teacher as but a few examples. In this case it will almost certainly come to light that somebody did or at least should have noticed something odd about this guy and reported it to a person in authority before it happened. Symtoms that one or more people are today likely wishing they acted upon instead of dismissing it as something other than it might have been for the sake of not wanting to 'get involved'. The only logical step that can ever hope to reduce (there will never be a total solution or prevention)similar incidents in future is education and security. The plain truth is that although increased vigilance and security will minimize the risk, nothing anyone can do will ever guarantee a similar incident will not occur again in the future. Opportunist special interest groups and politicians running around blaming a lack of gun control will do nothing at all, ever. Google gun control in Great Britain and gun control in Australia and see what an horrifically expensive but more importantly useless and crime increasing process gun control has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be. One need not look any further.

Posted by: Ross at April 17, 2007 11:27 AM

Please note that the handgun of choice nowadays is a Belgian made Glock. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

The killer was also Korean import was he not? I think the last Canadian school shooter was an East Indian Asian import or some such.

Killer of 14 at Polytechnique, Marc Lepine was a French Muslim/Canadian. (what a combo!)

The Comlubine boys were white Americans.

All kinds of people are nuts and do nutty stuff. Perhaps the UN should be blamed for this.

We should ban this sort of crime eh? That might work! We should ban crime in general and put those who deviate in .... er .... ah .... jail? yeah, that outta do it.

Posted by: Yanni at April 17, 2007 11:30 AM

How does CBC link shootings with Iraq? By using the same mentality they use to call the purchase of tanks an "escalation."

By using the same mentality they use when they call Israeli reaction to constant rocket attacks and kidnapping "disproporional."

By using the same mentality to crow on about "gun control," when it seems clear initially killer used illegal (egad unregistered) weapons.

By using the same mentality that blames these shootings on too much freedom.

Any questions?

Posted by: Shamrock at April 17, 2007 11:33 AM

Funny how the Europeans don't remember the mass killing in that school in Scotland some years ago. What lax gun control law caused that to happen?

jvp

Posted by: jvp at April 17, 2007 11:35 AM

A .22 and a 9mm? That is ... that's a shock. Those poor kids must have been trapped like rats in there.

This is some serious evil.

Posted by: The Phantom at April 17, 2007 11:39 AM

Europeans it was one of your GUNS-GLOCK. You Share the Blame by your faulty reasoning.

Posted by: John at April 17, 2007 11:44 AM

Aparently the Eurowenies convienently miss Switzerland's example. Take a look at the overall crime statistics. Also realize that it is required the every Swiss citizen between the age of 20 and 42 keep a weapon in their posession - and these are not gopher rifles.

A very good friend of mine served his time in the Swiss military (he has Swiss citizenship through his father) and was amazed to see people on the train with fully automatic weapons.

An overview:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1566715.stm


Posted by: Jeff Stevens at April 17, 2007 11:52 AM

Ann Coulter was right - the New York Times building should be a terrorist target. Then these commie media dumbasses would start to talk some sense. We can only hope that's where the next shootout occurs.

Posted by: Don Imus at April 17, 2007 11:56 AM

"When a US serviceman is involved in a crime in South Korea, tens of thousands of Koreans hit the streets to burn the US flag."

I think you're confusing the South with the North.

By the way, did anybody notice CBC's headline saying that all Canadians were safe in the attack? This morning, it appears one Quebecer is among the dead.

Posted by: Eugene at April 17, 2007 11:57 AM

We seem to be at a crossroads of choice. Complete (attempted) disarming of all citizens, which was the situation at VT, or allowing law-abiding responsible adults to defend themselves and their fellow citizens.
There are no perfect solutions, humans being imperfect. But I would much rather see a headline blaring "2 dead in University shootout" than "32 dead in University massacre".
These are our choices, in a nutshell. Lets make the choice that saves the most innocent lives.

Posted by: Mad Mike at April 17, 2007 12:02 PM

By the way, did anybody notice CBC's headline saying that all Canadians were safe in the attack? This morning, it appears one Quebecer is among the dead.

That makes us Canadians even safer.

Posted by: Don Imus at April 17, 2007 12:03 PM

Glock , made in Austria, I guess its alright to sell guns to Americans.

Posted by: bob at April 17, 2007 12:09 PM


3w.roanoke.com/news/nrv/wb/xp-21770

The Roanoke Times
Wednesday, April 13, 2005

Virginia Tech's ban on guns may draw legal fire

Some people question whether the university has the authority to ban the carrying of firearms. How about you?

By Kevin Miller


BLACKSBURG - Virginia Tech's recent action against a student caught carrying a gun to class could draw unwanted attention from groups already angry about firearms restrictions on public college campuses.

University officials confirmed that, earlier this semester, campus police approached a student found to be carrying a concealed handgun to class. The unnamed student was not charged with any crimes because he holds a state-issued permit allowing him to carry a concealed gun.

(...)

Virginia law already prohibits students or visitors from carrying guns onto the grounds of public and private K-12 schools. The state also prohibits concealed weapons in courthouses, places of worship during a service, jails and on any private property where the owner has posted a "no guns" notice. State employees are barred from possessing guns while at work unless needed for their job.

But Virginia code is silent on guns and public colleges. And two bills seeking to give college governing boards the authority to regulate firearms on campus died in committee during this year's General Assembly session.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There ya go... can't blame the state for disarming the VT victims...Virginia is a concealed carry permit state but VT campus admin overrode the right of students to exercise CCW rights...this one rests solely on the sholders of VT admin and their police force.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 12:11 PM

And still, no media mention of the fact that his girlfriend dumped him. With pics of the fist victim, a black man, murdered in a dorm, and a female killed at the same time. No pics of her. Were they in the same dorm, different rooms, was she the girl that dumped the shooter. Sorry, but until the personal lives of these three are out in the open, the truth will be hidden. Guns will be blamed, not the emotional immaturity of the shooter. Had the shooter lived, some lawyer would be out there defending him. If a student had killed him, that student would be in deep trouble. Dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. Regardless, somebody goofed big time from the UofV, police and security forces.

Posted by: mary T. at April 17, 2007 12:23 PM

Getting back on topic re: MSM interview questions, was I the only person that thought the continuing question "Why wasn't the campus locked down?" the most inane question of the day. Somebody out there tell me how you "lock down" a campus of over twenty thousand people, and do it in a timely and orchestrated manner. I would bet safe money that any major broadcasting station in either America or Canada would require a time period of roughly fifteen minutes to "lock down" and secure perhaps five hundred people. So to all you MSM people out there please tell me how you would go about "locking down" a campus of twenty thousand, I'm sure the FBI, CIA, DND, RCMP and a host of others would appreciate your expertise on the matter.

Posted by: Antenor at April 17, 2007 12:24 PM

Can't let the opportunity to capitalize on a tragedy escape the grubby clutches of the MSM .Media Money making attention grabbing hyperbole at it's best ( worst ) all day now and expect more.

Posted by: OMMAG at April 17, 2007 12:31 PM

Antenor: The "lock down" was in reference to the fact that Campus police realized they were dealing with a rogue gunman on campus and did nothing to block students who lived off campus from coming on campus..essentially endangering their lives as they had no idea where the gunman was at that time except he was on foot...pretty good chance that on a campus this size he was still wandering around.

As the second spate of "executions" started in the engineering building they still had students coming into the campus.

Probably one of the worst dithering unprofessional handlings of a dire criminal situation I have ever seen,,,I hope heads roll and the class actions suit drums these incompetants out of the careers they are so obviously not qualified to have.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 12:33 PM

Antenor - I'd agree with you; I think that insisting that the VT administration ought to have 'locked down' the campus after the first shootings is, at best, 'Monday morning Quarterbacking' - as well as pointless in function.

First, there is no way, absolutely no way that the police would know, beforehand, that the dormitory shooting was not an isolated incident and that the, presumably same individual, would continue on to a massacre two hours later.

A comparison would be a shooting in an apartment in a major city. Do the police lock down the entire neighbourhood or city? Of course not - they deal with the apartment. They have no means of 'foreseeing the future' to know that two hours later, a massacre could occur.

And, how does one lock down a campus? There were already thousands of students on site, both in dormitories and in classrooms. Preventing more students from entering the campus would not stop a future massacre.

Could the massacre have been prevented? Not by locking down the campus. Not by assuming without any evidence that the individual might go elsewhere (how would you know where?) and begin a massacre.

Not by gun control. Not only was the campus a 'no-guns' site, but, there is no way that a state can prevent anyone from, legally or illegally, obtaining a gun.

Only by self-protection during the actual event, as, for example, when the students moved desks to barricade them into their classrooms.

Events happen very quickly - by the time the campus police realized that there was a massacre going on in a building - and got to that building, the damage was done.

So, I don't see how a violent and vicious action, carried out by a psychotic individual, can be prevented. We don't and can't live in a perfect world and can't control our world to that extent.

Posted by: ET at April 17, 2007 12:47 PM

WLM, you have to remember that at the point of the discovery of the first shooting, it was still an isolated incident. Campus police probably figured they were at the end of the crime scene timeline, not right at the beginning.

I'm not a police officer myself, but I can't see anything else they would do other than investigate what they thought was an isolated incident. Is there something else they're trained to do?

Posted by: Eugene at April 17, 2007 12:48 PM

Shooter's name released...IDed as sole shooter

Virginia Tech officials say a senior English major from South Korea was behind the massacre of at least 30 people locked inside a campus building in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U-S history.

The Virginia Tech Police Department identified him as 23-year-old Cho Seung-Hui (joh sung hee), from Centreville, Virginia.

Virginia State Police Superintendent Steve Flaherty says there's
no evidence of an accomplice, but they are "exploring the possibility."

Flaherty said the victims in the second shooting yesterday, at
Norris Hal were in four different classrooms and a stairwell.

The bloodbath ended with the gunman's suicide, bringing the death toll from two separate shootings to 33. The first shooting was at a dormitory.

Virginia State Police say ballistics tests show one of the guns found at Norris Hall was used in both shootings.

3w.charlottesvillenewsplex.tv/news/headlines/7063612.html

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 12:50 PM

Eugene said: "WLM, you have to remember that at the point of the discovery of the first shooting, it was still an isolated incident"

That was an unprofessional and deadly presumption.

As for failing to seal off the campus from students coming into a possible crime/active crime scene, this is just plain against police SOP.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 1:07 PM

GUN CONTROL, GUN CONTROL, GUN CONTROL! ad nauseam...

How about for a switch....

MEDIA CONTROL!

Posted by: Doug at April 17, 2007 1:10 PM

As for failing to seal off the campus from students coming into a possible crime/active crime scene, this is just plain against police SOP.

Oh, come on. The campus is 2,600 acres and has 26,000 students. It's small city. There was a shooting in a residence at one end of the campus, and then no sign of any further threat when the cops arrived. He went quiet for two hours.

And even if they'd ordered a lockdown - so what? There would still be thousands of unarmed students on the campus and the guy would still have his guns and ammo.

Just face it - security can't stop a guy like this until they find him and trap him.

Posted by: Kevin Jaeger at April 17, 2007 1:18 PM

"As for failing to seal off the campus from students coming into a possible crime/active crime scene..."

I imagine the dormitory was already sealed off. There wasn't any reason to consider that the entire campus would also be a crime scene yet, was there?

The gunman could have gone anywhere. Are the police going to seal off every area the gunman could possibly have gone?

Posted by: Eugene at April 17, 2007 1:23 PM

They should have known that he'd be hungry to kill again after an hour or so.

Posted by: Don Imus at April 17, 2007 1:30 PM

Has Kookie Cukier been given her unfettered cbc platform for gun control yet?? Can bet dollars to doughnuts she WILL be on ad infinitum..can't wait!

Posted by: Sammy at April 17, 2007 1:54 PM

don imus - I presume that was a sarcastic remark; it couldn't have been serious. If serious, please explain exactly how 'they should have known' the presumed person (whom they didn't know) would have killed the first time 'out of hunger' and would want to do so in another hour or two, again, 'out of hunger'. That would require quite a knowledge base - including knowing exactly who the killer was, his motives, his psychological makeup, etc.

And I'm with kevin jaeger and eugene on this - there is no way that the police would know that the first shooting was not an isolated incident. It was not an unprofessional assumption. To assume immediately that one incident would mean a catastrophic next incident is the basis of hysteria and mob-uproar.

Are you seriously suggesting that each and every time a single shooting occurs, that the police must assume that the same individual will necessarily go on to a random massacre? Prove it.

And that to prevent such a future scenario, an entire campus or small city, must be shut down? How? And again - why? And how would it prevent anything?

As we've all noted, there were already thousands - got that - thousands of students already on campus. Preventing non-residents from entering would do nothing to stop a massacre of those already on campus.

I don't see how a psychotic act can be prevented.

Posted by: ET at April 17, 2007 1:55 PM

It's disgusting to see the European reaction to this incident. It seems the European media is all to eager to jump to the conclusion that this is the result of "american culture" and our lax gun laws.

Matt since the European culture allowed over 300 to die at a school in Beslan they should also look to what they let happen in the balkans before pointing their blood soaked finger at some foreigner the USA shouldn't have let in.

Ever notice most of these university shootings are not white male catholics.

Kimveer Gill, Gamil Gharbi,....

Posted by: DrWright at April 17, 2007 1:55 PM

The people that want gun control will be the first to demand the shooting of others that do not agree with what they say or do.

Posted by: Real Conservative at April 17, 2007 1:57 PM

Henry Champ is reporting on the shooter, appears he started a fire in a dorm some time ago, no action taken, his writings had been brought to the attention of authorities, no action taken, girls reported being stalked, no action taken. He wrote he was a victim, oppressed, etc. I wonder how much his being a visible minority had to do with no action taken. Can't be accused of racial profiling, being politically incorrect etc. From now on, when someone does a bad thing, forget where they come from, the color of their skin, sexual orientation or all the other reasons for being afraid to make waves. Take action.

Posted by: mary T. at April 17, 2007 2:12 PM

I was just browsing another site" canadian content" a somewhat to the left site. Well,the immoral alex jones,of 9\11 conspiracy fame is linked on this site, and he is speculating that this massacre may have been a black-op by the gov't. Some pople have no sense or morals,anything to make a buck.Just totally revolting.

Posted by: wallyj at April 17, 2007 2:12 PM

Before I gave up watching the news about this as being too inane for words, the one thing that struck me was how much more intelligent, poised, cautious and sensible 99% of the interviewed were than the interviewers.

Are you are you hero? (to the guy who blocked a door with a table)ans: " No, just scared and lucky ma'am"

Very next question: "Did you know any of the deceased?" (She's asking a nervous 19yo kid this on live national TV: Decency? decency? anyone?) ans: "I don't know ..."

Never mind all the finger pointing: Dear god ...the facts aren't in and we aren;t sure whether there's one shooter or two and people are blaming the police the university...

Disgusting display of stupidty, cupidity and lack of critical thinking and ignorance by the media.

Posted by: Fred at April 17, 2007 2:27 PM

Kate said; "On CBC's The National last evening, we learned that school shootings were the result of - wait for it - the Iraq war. How many potential guests did CBC news sift through and reject in order to come up with one willing to conform to that ridiculous script? (If someone can isolate that special bit of insight for Youtube posterity, let me know.)"

I'm downloading the video now. I'll have a clean clip for you within a few hours...

Posted by: Richard Evans at April 17, 2007 2:39 PM

ET, Eugene, Kevin Jaeger, et al. Thanks for your confirmation that the MSM don't live in the real world like the rest of us. CBC aside these professionals all seem to be a brick short of a load... Well perhaps a couple of bricks. CBC hacks on the other hand wouldn't know how to form a line-up for a one-hole outhouse.

Posted by: Antenor at April 17, 2007 2:46 PM

Antenor said...CBC hacks on the other hand wouldn't know how to form a line-up for a one-hole outhouse.

Depends....Is the hole on the left or right?

Posted by: Justthinkin at April 17, 2007 2:57 PM

"Has Kookie Cukier been given her unfettered cbc platform for gun control yet??"

Oh yes, Sammy, she has. Heard her this morning pulling into work at 7:30a EST, although on Toronto AM640 and not the Mother Corp.

It was very convenient for Wendy that these 32 innocent people were slaughtered to help her instruct the listeners that Stephen Harper is taking us down the exact same path with his attitudes towards the gun registry and gun ownership in general.

I've never heard a more loathsome, self-righteous excuse for a human being as this woman. She is utterly without a sense of shame or decency. No tragedy is too great for her to exploit posthaste for her own political ends, apparently.

mhb23re

Posted by: mhb at April 17, 2007 3:01 PM

"Oh, come on. The campus is 2,600 acres and has 26,000 students. It's small city."

Okay, I give it ...have it your way it was an impossible tast...funny how the cops were able to do this in other disaster sites like NOLA or other campuses....but hey, if it makes you feel good to defend the indefensable , knock yourself out. ;-)

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 3:04 PM

ET said: "Are you seriously suggesting that each and every time a single shooting occurs, that the police must assume that the same individual will necessarily go on to a random massacre? Prove it."

In a campus or large public venue this should be the natiral assumption in a post 9/11 world.

Look I'm not dissing the local police force...I'm sure the local TAC team could have intervened and prevented many deaths had they been alerted early enough...I have issues with the doughnut chomping campus cops who's bad/poor/unprofessional judgement and made all the wrong assessments of the situation and gave both time and opportunity to the killer.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 3:12 PM

"Has Kookie Cukier been given her unfettered cbc platform for gun control yet??"

Oh yes, Sammy, she has. Heard her this morning pulling into work at 7:30a EST, although on Toronto AM640 and not the Mother Corp.

I worked with this female person during the 1980's; even though my standards are fairly broad, she is in no way attractive to men. I think, and I'll admit this is only speculation on my part, that her hatred of guns is based on part by her rejection from men.

Posted by: KevinB at April 17, 2007 3:21 PM

No, wlmr - I'd suggest that it's you who is defending the indefensible.

It isn't that shutting off the campus is an impossible task; it's that it's irrelevant. There were already thousands of people on campus, both those who had already arrived and those who, also in the thousands, actually lived on campus.

Shutting off the campus would not have stopped the massacre.

Equally, gun control laws would not have stopped it. Legal or illegal gun ownership has nothing to do with a psychotic action.

Even, reviewing his papers, and deciding that he was 'troubled' and sending him to counselling would not have stopped a psychotic breakdown.

Furthermore, we cannot MAKE an individual take counselling until and unless they have already committed a crime. To do so before, would move us into state-engineering of citizens - and the uproar over that would be enormous. That is, imagine if your child came home from school and said that the teacher thought his essay was 'too violent' and that he must take counselling.

And, counselling in itself is no guarantee of preventing a psychotic attack.

For what it's worth, I recall my own minor run-in with a paranoid schizophrenic in one of my classes. I first noticed her, when she self-described herself to me as a 'native'; I had my doubts. Then, she wrote, constantly in my classes. I can understand a few notes during lectures, but - this was strange.
And then, term exams. I found out what she was writing - over and over, it was 'kill, kill, kill'. And ramblings about nothing..and more 'kill, kill, kill'.
I told her I couldn't mark her paper.

I sent her paper to administration with a note about my concern; our president was an ethically and I'd say, intellectually 'challenged' feminist liberal. Result? Nothing. No reaction.

I then got in touch with Security. Security told me, at first, that they knew about her and that there had 'been violence with her' before. Then, he immediately recanted about the violence and told me that the violent acts weren't committed by this woman. No- even though the violence was committed by someone with the same name, same age, same appearance - heh, heh- this student in my class was not 'her'.
Now- why was Security denying the truth?

What did Security tell me to do with a student who was clearly very ill? They told me to have another student sit at the back of the classroom, and if there was 'any trouble', this student should run out, and find a phone, and call Security. They would then come over to the classroom. Imagine how long that would take?

I told them that I was not going to do this; I would not put my students at risk. And - went to the THIRD section of administration - the Dean, and asked that she be removed from the class. This was finally done.

But note - I found out that I had a seriously disturbed individual in my class. I notified the two top levels of administration, and nothing was done. Indeed, Security lied to me about her identity - and downplayed any potential threat she might have posed to the students. I had to deal with it entirely on my own.

So- remember, life doesn't function like a well-oiled machine.

Posted by: ET at April 17, 2007 3:29 PM

ET (phone home??) said:
"there is no way that the police would know that the first shooting was not an isolated incident. It was not an unprofessional assumption. To assume immediately that one incident would mean a catastrophic next incident is the basis of hysteria and mob-uproar.

Are you seriously suggesting that each and every time a single shooting occurs, that the police must assume that the same individual will necessarily go on to a random massacre? Prove it."

law enforcement agencies are trained in risk assessment. a key tenet of which is that when a shooting occurs in a public venue, if the shooting involves multiple casualties; it is to be treated as a "human targeting event" and not as a "criminal investigation". as such, the police involved are certainly guilty of an "unprofessional" assumption. taking police training in risk assessment out of the picture all you need is common sense...something that was sorely lacking in this event.

one pertinent question would be: where did this guy get these guns??? i'll hazard a guess: at the local gas station!!! the goal of rational policymaking would dictate that to attempt to prevent these events in the future, our societies must make it more difficult for psychopaths to procure firearms.

Posted by: canuckistanian at April 17, 2007 3:36 PM

Good 'ol Captain.

From Capatin's Quarters:

Update with pertenent info on the goblin. I hate being right but he fits 3 of the 5 criteria I speculated that are a pattern with these nutters,

He telegraphed his intentions with weird psycho behavior and

He had serious behavioral outbursts where authorities suggested he get help

He was delusional ( something about being Ismail's axe and killing "rich kids".)

From the Captain:

Ismail Ax? (Updated)
The Virginia Tech shooter had a history of odd behavior, and his professors had gone so far as to recommend him for counseling, the Chicago Tribune reports this morning. Seung-hui Cho left behind a note that blamed the "debauchery" of "rich kids" for his shooting spree, and had the words "Ismail Ax" written on his forearm when he died:

The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.
The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.

Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.

A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

Cho was an English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counseling service, the Associated Press reported.


No one is sure as of yet what the phrase "Ismail Ax" means. It appears to be a reference to Abraham/Ibrahim, in which Ismail and Abraham take an axe to the idols of a temple as part of his conversion to monotheism. Is this a cryptic reference to Islamist or Christian radicalism? It certainly suggests one of the two

(...)

Other than that, it seems rather clear that Cho had a reputation as a disturbed loner. Once the first shooting occurred in the dorm, one might have presumed that VT officials would have considered that reputation as a security risk and locked down the school -- and perhaps have gone to Cho's room to see if he was still there and where he might have gone, if not.


w3.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 3:39 PM

UPDATE: KILLER'S DISTURBED WRITINGS!

Featured on the smoking gun blog:

3w.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

"" Virginia Killer's Violent Writings

Play told of pedophilic stepfather, murder of 13-year-old boy

APRIL 17--The college student responsible for yesterday's Virginia Tech slaughter was referred last year to counseling after professors became concerned about the violent nature of his writings, as evidenced in a one-act play obtained by The Smoking Gun. The play by Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old English major, was submitted last year as part of a short story writing class. Entitled "Richard McBeef," Cho's bizarre play features a 13-year-old boy who accuses his stepfather of pedophilia and murdering his father. A copy of the killer's play can be found below. The teenager talks of killing the older man and, at one point, the child's mother brandishes a chain saw at the stepfather. The play ends with the man striking the child with "a deadly blow.""

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 3:43 PM

A blog well written by Professor Pierre Lemieux in Quebec (yesterday) about gun control.

I recommend the read, particularly for Wendy Cukier, Canada's MSM go to gun priestess.


Posted by: Joe Molnar at April 17, 2007 3:46 PM

mhb said:
""Has Kookie Cukier been given her unfettered cbc platform for gun control yet??"

Oh yes, Sammy, she has. Heard her this morning pulling into work at 7:30a EST, although on Toronto AM640 and not the Mother Corp.

It was very convenient for Wendy that these 32 innocent people were slaughtered to help her instruct the listeners that Stephen Harper is taking us down the exact same path with his attitudes towards the gun registry and gun ownership in general.

I've never heard a more loathsome, self-righteous excuse for a human being as this woman. She is utterly without a sense of shame or decency. No tragedy is too great for her to exploit posthaste for her own political ends, apparently.

mhb23re"

pot...kettle...black! perhaps not you personally, but every commenter on this site has used this tragedy as a means to advance their political arguments for the right to bear arms. absolutely disgusting!!!

Posted by: canuckistanian at April 17, 2007 3:49 PM

Joe Molnar: Pierre Lemieux's site is a good read anythime (shameless plug) ;-)

He is particularly literate on the finer details of gun control and gun control laws in Canada.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 3:55 PM

The final item in the school nutter pattern emerges in the VT killer's profile:

From ABC:

"Investigators believe Cho at some point had been taking medication for depression, the Tribune reported."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ahh there's the final connection with a majority of the rampage shooters. On a psychotropic drug...which have a proven history of inducing psychotic reactions.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at April 17, 2007 4:14 PM

canuckistanian - right now - stop with the ad hominem. What's your point of 'phone home'? Those are my initials. Do you have a problem with that?

Your assertion is meaningless. The first killings were two people; that is absolutely not indicative of a 'human targeting event'.

Provide proof that this person got his guns at 'the local gas station'. And how is a society going to stop someone from obtaining not merely a legal, but an illegal gun? How? It's pompous nonsense to 'make it more difficult'. How? Oh, and are you saying that we will have identity cards identifying 'psychopaths'?

wlmr - are you now saying that the campus police KNEW, absolutely knew, that the first shootings were carried out by Cho? How did they know that? By the way, Cho's bizarre play has overtones of a famous play with the title of Oedipus Rex. And Othello. And Lear.

No, canuckistanian - people are not using the tragedy to advocate gun ownership; people are debating how, if, whether, such events can be controlled by society.

Guns are obviously a variable in this situation and that means that one must decide whether/not a state can control guns in that state. And, whether/not control of guns is not merely possible, but whether/not such control would have made such a massacre impossible. So far, the conclusion seems to be that state control of guns is both impossible - and, even if it existed, it wouldn't have stopped this massacre. Next question?

Posted by: ET at April 17, 2007 4:15 PM

canuckistanian said..."one pertinent question would be: where did this guy get these guns??? i'll hazard a guess: at the local gas station!!! the goal of rational policymaking would dictate that to attempt to prevent these events in the future, our societies must make it more difficult for psychopaths to procure firearms." @ 3:36 PM.

And just how do we do that? Lock up all the "percieved" psychos? And who is going to pay for the thousands of jails required to do this? Sitting here typing this right know,I am a "suppossed" sane person who would not commit murder. Oh yeah? Who says so? If you showed up on my doorstep tonight threatening me,or worse,my family,you would not survive.So this makes me a psycho?

He then posts...."pot...kettle...black! perhaps not you personally, but every commenter on this site has used this tragedy as a means to advance their political arguments for the right to bear arms. absolutely disgusting!!!"

So we are not allowed to stand and voice our disagreement with a truely certifiable nut case like Cukier? And when did you become my little commisar buddy?

Posted by: Justthinkin at April 17, 2007 4:16 PM

From the Chicago Tribune:

BLACKSBURG, Va. -- The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.

The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on one of his arms.

Ismail being Abraham's illigitimate son, born to his wife's slave, Hagar, from whom Mo claims decension.

Posted by: irwin daisy at April 17, 2007 4:44 PM

ET said:
"canuckistanian - right now - stop with the ad hominem. What's your point of 'phone home'? Those are my initials. Do you have a problem with that?

Your assertion is meaningless. The first killings were two people; that is absolutely not indicative of a 'human targeting event'."

ad hominem, ad hominem...get a sense of humour. the point: ask steven spielberg.

the first shootings involved four people, two dead, two injured. when multiple people are killed in a public venue, law enforcement officials are trained in risk assesment to assume that it is a "human targeting event". just thought i would educate you so you didn't keep going on like a fool about "hysteria and mob mentality".

Posted by: canuckistanian at April 17, 2007 5:08 PM

The Thirty Years' War, the War of the Austrian Succession, the War of the Spanish Succession, the Napoleonic Wars, The Franco-Prussian War, World War I, the Russian Revolution, World War II including the Holocaust, The ethnic cleansing in the Balkans -- yeah, gotta get some of that European culture with their gun control -- 'cause we don't want no violence.

Posted by: DrD at April 17, 2007 5:17 PM

Canuckistanian –

No, I’ve commented on this thread, but haven’t pushed any personal political views for that reason. I noted Cukier’s opportunistic scoring of political points in the wake of this tragedy, but I’m not about to stoop to her level by rolling in the same mud bath right now. Perhaps I was a bit harsh in that last post, but the 60 second soundbyte was uncalled for, and more than a little disgusting.

Apart from the simple fact that with emotions on both sides of the fence running high at this time (thereby making lucid debating of the issue difficult), I think it’s in poor taste to use this tragic incident to make political hay before the victims are even interred. That includes both the pro and anti gun control crowds, BTW. Wendy Cukier is a more strident example of a political opportunist, and certainly her exemplar of human compassion should be held as a moral compass for nobody. However, those who are likewise crowing that VT’s decision to ban concealed carry and the fact that the students weren’t packing heat to defend themselves are somehow to blame for the massacre are – frankly – not worlds apart in the compassion and empathy department from Ms. Cukier, IMO.

Another poster noted here (and quite wisely, too) that when you view the world solely through a political lens you tend to suck the humanity out of people. I think many people of both right and left political stripes are rather close to doing this regarding the Virginia Tech shooting. Those who died yesterday weren't pawns in some right/left debate to justify or condemn gun control, they were sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, friends, and perhaps even parents, too; it is ultimately disrespectful to them and the survivors to disregard the fact that 32 innocents are no longer with us to focus solely on political agendas, less than a day after the tragedy.

There will be time enough to yell at one another about gun control or registries, and about arming or disarming society in the next few days or even weeks; why not call a temporary armistice over the partisan bickering and save some time and thought for the victims and their families?

Just a thought.

mhb23re

Posted by: mhb at April 17, 2007 5:19 PM

Right on, DrD, the last time the Euroweenies had guns they used them on their neighbors and leveled the place twice to the ground in the past century. Better they don't have them.

Ask a Frenchman if they feel that secure when they are accosted on the train or torched in their car if the French police, pc hampered and demoralized, are going to be there for them real fast? Or perhaps, at Beslan or the Moscow theater could armed citizens have done a better job than the state?

Sorry, mhb, you can hold two thoughts on this tragedy, feeling deep sorrow for the victims and their families, and, debate the issue of gun laws without one negating the other. I feel that if that campus wasn't a restricted "gun free zone", there might have been a chance, and it has happened, that someone could have retrieved their gun - desk, car, campus apt. - and taken a crack at this guy, the cops were late and useless.

Posted by: penny at April 17, 2007 6:06 PM

Got the video clip up from last evening's National: http://no-libs.com/?p=1617

Posted by: Richard Evans at April 17, 2007 6:06 PM

re: pun'dit

As far as I know the U.S. does have the highest per capita gun ownership rate in the world, and many of our cities have high murder rates compared to other major world cities. However, that does not mean there are not European cities that have similarly high murder rates.

While the U.S. does have high murder rates our overall crime rate is drastically lower than other countries - take England for example. Burglaries while people are home is much higher, and since England passed stricter gun control laws (I think it was ten years ago) the use of guns in violent crimes has skyrocketed. Why? because criminals who are intent on getting guns will still get them - and now that honest citizens can't have them the criminals don't have to worry about being shot back at.

I'm not a gun lover, and I see pros and cons to letting people easily obtain firearms, but I think in the case of VA Tech if some of those kids had a gun on them a lot of lives would have been saved. According to VA state law they could have a concealed weapon - it was school policy that did not permit it.

Posted by: matt s. at April 17, 2007 6:08 PM

An editorial from a Virginia Tech student:

It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.

Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech's student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.

I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.

First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.

Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.

Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus.

Read on.....

www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/80510

Posted by: penny at April 17, 2007 6:31 PM

pundit - I disagree with your attempt to link mass murder to only the USA; it happens elsewhere, indeed, everywhere. People are not unique in psychological makeup.

Most certainly, the Islamic fascist bombings in Europe, Asia and Africa are mass murders.

The same for 'ethnic cleansing mass murders' carried out by guns, in Darfur, in Bosnia, in Russia, in Chechnya. And the gang wars in L.America and so on.

Canuckistanian - ad hominem isn't negated by telling me 'it's humorous'; it isn't and you, not Spielberg, are the one using it.

Two deaths does not prove that the individual is going to move into a massacre. Your argument is spurious. Is this number a rule for Step 2, the supposition that the agent will then move on to mass murder?

Again, psychotic behaviour is extremely difficult to define, predict and control. You can't send every individual who writes a violent story, whether it be about Hannibal Lector or Star Wars - to be confined to an asylum. What about rap music and those 'writers'?

Posted by: ET at April 17, 2007 6:41 PM

All these shootings on campuses seem to have a similar profile. Deranged idiot(s) traps students in classrooms and methodically shoots them. They are trapped and though some like the student who pushed the desk against the door are able to thwart the attack others aren't so lucky.

Let me ask a question of a lot of you that seem to have security or military experience. Would it be impossible to have a Mossberg pistol grip shotgun locked in a case like a fire extinguisher but with keypad access that a teacher or student trained in handling firearms would have access to in each classroom? In addition why are not the classroom doors steel and able to be locked? The responsibility of this person would be to lock the door of the classroom and defend the students within until help arrives.

As several of you have mentioned once a criminal knows he may get his head blown off if he attempts to enter a protected area he is unlikely to do it.

There are certainly holes in these suggestions that you could drive a truck through but would it be at all feasible? If I was a student I would welcome the opportunily to fight back.

Comments

Posted by: David Hand at April 17, 2007 7:05 PM

WL Mackenzie: I believe you're wrong (in your 11:42AM post), in the following way:

The killer was by what I've read permanent resident alien, and thus could legally purchase firearms.

As he was over 21, he could, assuming an otherwise clean legal record in the relevant areas, purchase his pistols with perfect legality.

Citizenship is not required, just permanent resident status or the like. (IE, not on a temporary visa.)

David: I imagine doors aren't lockable to keep someone bad from locking students in, or to keep students from locking themselves in to cause trouble. Hell, the fire code might prohibit it.

Posted by: Sigivald at April 17, 2007 7:24 PM

Again, psychotic behaviour is extremely difficult to define, predict and control. You can't send every individual who writes a violent story, whether it be about Hannibal Lector or Star Wars - to be confined to an asylum. What about rap music and those 'writers'?

ET - wrong on the first. The DSM clinically defines psychosis with s/s that are blatant and universally agreed upon. If you are diagnosed with a major mental illness - schizophrenia, bipolar, the course of the disease coupled with a lack of treatment predicts psychotic episodes in your future. Treatment of acute psychosis is very effective with meds. The trick is to get the actively psychotic into treatment fast and involuntarily when needed.

You are dead on.... You can't send every individual who writes a violent story, whether it be about Hannibal Lector or Star Wars - to be confined to an asylum.... or we'd have the majority of adolescents locked up. The criteria clinically, what's age appropriate, what's the intent/plan/ideation as harmful to self or others. People generally do reveal what they are thinking and what they are planning. It's a myth that they don't, which is my concern that opportunities in the encounters with this guy were missed.

He may have been a narcissistic jackass or an acutely delusional major mental illness, we owe it to prevention to figure out if he slipped through the cracks, having presented to mental health where the right questions weren't asked. We have laws allowing us to detain the dangerous.

Having said this, if I had a gun and had been there, I would have used it on him during his rampage. This isn't about excuses, it's about clinically figuring out who these people are so we have some chance at making mental health better and the public safer.

Posted by: penny at April 17, 2007 7:43 PM

David, unfortunately there's no truly practical means to completely thwart the rampages of a determined, methodical killer. Guns, liberally salted around campuses and public places which are only intermittently occupied, locked or otherwise, would be prohibitively expensive and an invitation to theft. These events are incredibly rare; I can't count the number of car accidents I've passed, but I've never been near a shooting rampage (not counting gunshot victims I've treated in hospital). The best defence, I believe, lies in demistifying firearms, having more citizens exposed to military training (cover from view vs cover from fire, counter-ambush drills) in reserves, cadets, whatever and trusting duly qualified citizens to have firearms available as they see fit. Beyond that life's about playing the odds. Hope you're not beside the wacko when he goes off.

Posted by: DrD at April 17, 2007 8:02 PM

Wouldn't we all love to prevent murder. I'm sure Adam and Eve didn't want one son to kill the other. However there really is no way to keep people safe. Its not the prevelance of guns or the absence of guns that bring about malicious death. There is nothing we can do except act quickly to stop the killing as soon as it begins. This of course requires morals, courage and moral courage and indeed that might be the short coming we all have. Do we have the wisdom to know when to step in? We will never know until we are faced with the situation. From experience I can say that the wisdom I speak of comes at the instant it is called upon. A man standing beside me pulled a hunting knife and held it to the throat of his ex-wife. Several of us grabbed him, separating him from his knife and dragged him outside where he was restrained for 20 minutes until the police arrived.

Posted by: Joe at April 17, 2007 8:55 PM

penny, I'd never hinted people shouldn't have different thoughts on this tragedy. That's a given for everyone - me included.

My point was that the Cukiers of this world tend to break into a sweat whenever something like this occurs, as it represents to them valuable and immediate political leverage for their pet causes rather than tragic loss of human life. And it's no more acceptable for those on the right to behave similarly by using this issue to push anti-gun control politics at this point in time.

Hey, penny, I'm a gun owner, so I bet you can guess my sentiments on gun control, the disarming of Canadians by the left, and the importance of not entrusting one's personal well-being wholly to the state. However, the need to forcefully debate those issues - for me, anyways - has dropped in immediate priority due to the terrible human loss of yesterday. As I said above, time enough to vigorously discuss these issues in the near future.

mhb23re

Posted by: mhb at April 17, 2007 10:06 PM

"As several of you have mentioned once a criminal knows he may get his head blown off if he attempts to enter a protected area he is unlikely to do it."

Unless he doesn't give a damn about what happens to him, as was the case with this particular individual, or a suicide bomber. People who don't fear the ultimate consequence can slip a lot past the goalie.

Posted by: TruthSeeker at April 17, 2007 10:59 PM

W.L. Mackenzie and Sigavald @ 11.42am and 7.24pm.
I believe the U.S. Constitution protects the rights of all people in the U.S. equalily, unless specially noted, like in the requirement to be elected president, where you must be a born american. This would include the right to bear arms, regardless of citizinship or legal standing in the U.S, "notwithstanding" the right of individual states to limit access to firearms.
I'm quite certain.

It's very good to read these many well thought out comments today... my heart goes out to these murdered people, and especially their families left behind.
I hate it that the CBC uses this type of event to move their own demented political cause forward. All it would take is 1 individual to stand up and fire back... to stop the madness.

Posted by: marc in calgary at April 17, 2007 11:26 PM

nothing convincing to explain why this bloodlust seems to have permanently set up house in the lower 48.

For starters mass shootings aren't that common in the US:

http://volokh.com/posts/chain_1176746946.shtml

It's rare, statistically rare in a nation of 300 million, and it happens in other countries or you haven't dug through the MSM crap to get to those facts. Nice MSM type hyperbole with "bloodlust" though. Ever try googling for rational information and perspectives?

Posted by: penny at April 17, 2007 11:43 PM

It is surprising that anybody catches what’s on CBC. As per rating week of April 2 to 8, of top 30 shows CBC rates #2 and #30 only because it’s HNIC. CBC is all but irrelevant.
CTV news in 16th place.
The government should really sell the CBC to the highest bidder. Won’t happen though.
There is no politician in the past, the present or the future of thousand years that will have guts to do it.
It would not cost us @ 1B in taxes and the paper pushers would be collecting taxes from the revenue of a public company. Remember, public company does not mean owned by the taxpayer through government.

Posted by: Bolshevik at April 17, 2007 11:44 PM
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