NBC says a "20 year old 'Asian male.'

When will authorities understand that if a Psycho or terrorist wants to pick a target where he can do the most damage without the probability of being shot and where all his potential victims are sure to be unarmed and incapable of armed response to an armed attack, that number one target is a school.

Sorry, it's post 911 world moonbats...official hoplophobia is killing people...armed campus guards at the least...preferably state-issued concealed carry for a few plain cloths security staff.

I guaran-damn-tee a demented goblin like this Virginia killer would not be racking up the body count he did...and if there is a efficient pattern of armed campus security responding fast and dispatching these dirt bags with deadly precision before they take lives ....schools will fall out of favor as a target for mass killers.

There's more on the Drudge Report. ABC News has upped the murder count to 29 people, and George Bush has issued a statement, issued through Dana Perino.

WLMR: Just as you say.

The only way to stop a murderous nutcase is immediate response with equivalent force.

The gun control moonbats will be closing their doors and chortling with glee, even when these examples of insanity prove that gun control doesn't work.

Sad.

Death toll now reported-32.Fox reports "Asian looking male". Description gleaned from eyewitnesses.
Too bad some of the students weren't carrying. They may have been able to take this guy out before he did that much damage.

I wonder what Kevin Potvin's inner voice is telling him.

The goblins are getting smarter too, WL. Looks like Goblin Boy used a real gun this time. Up 'till now they've been using pistols and tarted up carbines like that scumbag Kimveer Gill.

Another victory for gun control and liberalism. I really don't know what it is going to take before people in the Western world finally remember (because we used to know this) that there's only so much a government agency can actually, physically do for you when it all hits the fan.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but when I see numbers like 29 dead by ONE shooter, there's only one place to look for the reason and that's liberal legislators and the socialist moneybags who buy them.

What really chews me is that I couldn't have BEEN there and fixed this pr1ck before he got started. 29 kids dead, g*dd*mnit!

"The only way to stop a murderous nutcase is immediate response with equivalent force. "

This is presicely what saved many lives at Dawson College...Had on-staff security had the same response deployment as the police, they may have been no casualties.

Gun control laws only effect sane responsible people...only swift armed response will save lives when a deranged criminal or terrorist decides to go on a killing spree.

Anyone who makes equivilence between regustering the shot guns of Sask. duck hunters and preventing mass nurder, is too demented to be of use in this debate.

The Virginia killings are a clear cut case of disarming the victims.

...I just hope there isn't a knee-jerk reaction in the US to copy Canadian gun control laws.

If so, I dunno.

Apparently there were two separate shootings, two hours apart. What the hell? Have a look at this:

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/

Why can't fricken nutcases like this pathetic vermin just off themselves and leave everyone else alone?

I wish the media would refuse to name the scum or show a picture of the scum. If they knew they would get no publicity for themselves, it may stop them from running amok in the first place.

Good God, the count is at 32 people now. Sweet mother...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266310,00.html

Federal Officials: At Least 32 Dead After Virginia Tech University Shooting

"BLACKSBURG, Va. — At least 32 people are confirmed dead and at least another 21 are wounded after a shooting at Virginia Tech University Monday morning, federal law enforcement officials told FOX News.

Campus police said there was only one shooter and he is now dead. They are unsure if the shooter was a student and it was unclear if he was shot by police or took his own life."

With 32 dead and 21 wounded, this would suggest an automatic weapon/s would have been used by the lone deranged individual or terrorist.

To have brought up the body count this quickly nothing short of automatic weapons fire could account the death and injury toll. To have done this much damage in such a short period would suggest some training in how to 'lay down the lead'.

Obviously, this individual was deranged or a planned terrorist act. I would be guessing the latter as they have ready access automatic weapons.

Truly, a black day for Blacksburg, Va.

Wait for it....you know before the week is out, some moonbat from the MSM is going to blame this on Bush and the war.

on the fox site there is a picture of one of them getting arrested. Asian, maybe Korean?

I just bought my 1 year membership to the NRA online. I've been meaning to do it for awhile. I don't own a gun yet, but they need my support. That's my reaction to the calls for gun control.

Hope the going postal trend changes to jumping from high bridges or something more bravado and less cowardly.= TG

"What kind of coward takes the failure on his own life out on others?"

The type created by the culture of victimhood.... created by degenerate liberalism which looks to pin the blame for personal failings on external sources and allows the underacheiver to be coddled by the nanny state as a "victim" for their hadicap, race, ethnicity, sexual preference all their wrong doings. The need to idetify with a victim group to make your worst impulses someone else's fault.

I want everyone reading this to do me one favor...remember what I said about the cult of victimhood cultured by nanny statism.

In the ensuing days and weeks when the libby-left hand wringers in the media are working this story to death to propagete their pet victimhood orthodoxies...watch for them to fix blame on every damn thing but the nutter who did it...
it was his home life...
it was society's failure to recognize him,...
it was the gun, .....
it was lack of gun control,...
it was the way his Daddy yelled at him,....
it was his teachers belittleing him,... it was his girlfriend leaving him...

and on and on and on....dytopian Liberalism looking everywhere but at the perpetrator for answers.

Then again it was liberal left culture that removed his personal responsibility and those so indoctrinated just don't get it...they wander aimlessly looking for some external thing to blame their actions on.

If this attitude wasn't so deadly, it'd be hilarious.

Unfortunately this massacre will no doubt bring out a lot of hand wringing leftists calling for more gun controls. As mentioned above schools, hospitals, universities are seen as soft targets by the unbalanced and will continue to generate headlines like this until we either remove every offensive weapon in the country or we adopt a sane gun policy that would allow CCP to every responsible citizen that wishes to protect themselves. This is another incident that proves the current legislation has again drastically failed and that the state is unable to protect its most vulnerable citizens. Thirty plus deaths in one incident is a sad commentary on our society.

Hi ED
I understand your deleting the post I responded too. Perhaps it will be better to delete my complete post /response. Your editing of the post now makes it look like I am berating the hole form instead of the troll Warrior. You might as well delete this one as well

Thank you and take care. [OK, Done - ED]

A likely result of this horrible event will be armed guards on campus.

Sadly for today's victims it will be a reactive, rather than proactive cure.

Can anyone answer this question. Why, in most university shootings, it is the science and engineering faculties that are hit.

The Israeli's dealt with this problem two decades ago. I also understand Thailand has dealt with terrorists targeting schools as well. They make sure there is an armed presence in the schools, the teachers in Israel, and I don't know about Thailand.
There have been 16 incidents of Islamofascist attack in the US to date and all denied by the FBI as anything more than isolated incidents. Just listening to a local radio talk show (Bill Goode)on the attack where the last caller went on about violent video games and other familiar meaningless rhetoric.
I thought 9/11 was the wake-up call. I guess not.

Actually albatros, one dead soldier killed fighting in a war zone sucks but isn't on the same level as 32+ people killed at a university campus where it should be least expected.

But given you bring it up, as a juxtaposition, this one day at a University has matched 2/3rds of Canada's losses in our war to protect 30 million people and give them a modicrum of a chance at life. I'd say that no loss should be trivialized but losing a life for the benefit of 30 million isn't a waste. Losing 32 lives because some guy feels disgruntled is. That you can't put that into perspective lets us know you're a leftard.

Now be gone.

albatross - was there a school massacre in Canada today? I've checked and can't find it. Please advise.

Do you only feel concern for people who are citizens of Canada? Not a shred of concern for the basic commonality of our being, all of us, human, no matter which country we live in? How cold and arrogant of you. Did you know that such exclusive nationalism is a characteristic of fascism? You are a fascist!!??

You refer to 'fascism' - and to 'followers of Harper' as being fascist. COuld you provide some reasonable explanation for this opinion of yours

I strongly support Harper - and heck, sorry to inform you, but I'm not a fascist. Indeed, I'm not aware of any people who support Harper who are fascists; fascism and Harper's policies simply don't function together. But - you claim they do. Explain fascism and how Harper is one, please.

Did that creep Albatross dare equate this to Afghanistan? That's low, even for him. Way to go ED for booting him off.

I'm pretty sure that ED is Kate. ED being Editor of the site...

1. Does anyone notice something funny about the timing of the shooting? The killer shot up part of campus around 7am but was still able to find people in class at 10am to shoot some more? The university knew that there was a shooter on campus for 2 hours but it didn't cancel classes? They had a shooting on campus a year ago - it's amazing that they had no plan in effect for this type of situation.

2. As for gun control - this shooting was another example of it's fine effects.

This is what the university had to say when the state of Virginia agreed to ban students and staff from having guns on campus:

"I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Warwick: "but isn't on the same level as 32+ people killed at a university campus where it should be least expected."

WTF?! You *EXPECT* students to be executed at universities? Geez, I hope I don't send my girls to any school you send your children to.

Kevin,

Re-read the sentance. Since you reposted it in quote form you'd have thought you'd have read it the first time.

The sentance means the exact opposite of what you took it as...

KevinB,
I'm guessing that reading comprehension is not your forte......

This is very sad.
We go to blogs,
As a place to debate.
But when a maniac,
Mows down innocents,
Pause we not to weep?

George Bush made a statement on TV just now. He began by offering all help that the U.S. government could deliver, and ended with a prayer for the victims. It was short, lasting about a minute or so.

"This is very sad.
We go to blogs,
As a place to debate.
But when a maniac,
Mows down innocents,
Pause we not to weep?"

Posted by: Vitruvius at April 16, 2007 3:54 PM

Amen.

Oops. My bad. I thought you said "at least expected", which you didn't.

My apologies for an undeserved slur.

“Did that creep Albatross dare equate this to Afghanistan? That's low, even for him. Way to go ED for booting him off.
Posted by: The Phantom at April 16, 2007 3:26 PM “

You’ll never know, because that post was deleted. The post was in fact a criticism of SDA in it's lack of handling the story about dead Canadian soldiers and instantly posting a story about dead Americans. Apparently who ever is playing “ED” today didn’t like SDA being criticized. But I guess you’ll never know for sure.

"I'm pretty sure that ED is Kate. ED being Editor of the site...

Posted by: Warwick at April 16, 2007 3:29 PM"

Well who ever is acting as "ED" today is terribly afraid of a bit of criticism of SDA along with it's support of racist comments found on SDA. I notice criticisms of Iraq, or Harper and the Conservatives are often frequently deleted here too.
Controlling free speech and opposing viewpoints is a very cowardly tactic too often used by right-wing fascists the world over.
That's quite all right as I take screenshots of my comments on SDA and will post them on another web site to show how right-wing fanatics handle opposing viewpoints.
ED, better delete all the posts that commented earlier on my deleted posts because if you don’t people here will see that you’re controlling of the information of what they are allowed to see.

This sounds like the work of the same childish mind behind the Suzuki poll manipulation a few weeks ago.
Oops, this could be considered another criticism, how long until this post is deleted too?

"George Bush made a statement on TV just now. He began by offering all help that the U.S. government could deliver"

Same help that they received after Katrina? Haven’t they suffered enough?

Wow. 30 kids have been shot dead and the blame somehow falls on those who campaigned against firearms.

There is so much bullsh*t on this particular topic floating around on this board.

Why is the onus on students to buy guns to protect themselves? Why isnt the onus on the state to keep guns out of peoples hands? The state has responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is PROTECTING citizens. It is a responsibility given to the state by the citizens. Why have cops if we can just arm ourselves and do whatever? Why keep an army if everybody should be allowed to have a gun or two?

Arm campus security. Arm the law enforcement agencies. That isnt the issue. Somebody said that armed campus security would be reactive. Yes, yes it is reactive. These things only happen with experience. Why wasnt airport security better before 9/11? Its the same thing. The simple answer lies in the profit margin. It would cost too much money. In a capitalist system, it is not uncommon to NOT protect oneself against extremely low risks, especially when money is involved.

How did the murderer get his hands on the weapons in the first place? Has anybody bothered checking? The simple fact is that they were accessible and probably legal. I dont buy the automatic weapons talk. According to eyewitnesses on BBC the kid was firing off a single round at a time.

"created by degenerate liberalism which looks to pin the blame for personal failings on external sources and allows the underacheiver to be coddled by the nanny state as a "victim" for their hadicap, race, ethnicity, sexual preference all their wrong doings."

Thats gratuitous and inaccurate. These kinds of crimes are hardly new or limited in geographical location. They happen all over the world. Soldiers kill officers when they re under extreme duress. I bet liberalism is to blame for that to. Too bad Liberalism hasnt been around forever.

Mary T

"Why, in most university shootings, it is the science and engineering faculties that are hit."

Engineering is one of the most high stress faculties in any university in any part of the world. Science is not far behind, especially if you need the perfect scores required for med schools. They are very specialised fields, and there is no room for error. It essentially defines their lives.

And then of course theres the genius of WLMKR.

Tell me Willie, what exactly caused this kid to go berserk? If he was always insane, why did nobody realise it earlier? If he is a student, why did they give him admission? How come nobody noticed that the guy was completely nuts till today? Perhaps its because he wasnt always insane. You apparently beg to differ. Well Willie, sometimes its good to address the factors that cause these breakdowns. Ask the armed forces all over the world. Extreme duress has resulted in soldiers killing officers. Both groups are kept under observation, and yet, one fine day, a completely normal soldier might crack. And those nannies, the ones who ve been to war, you know, the generals, they ask the questions you ask - what caused it and how do we fix it? Human beings can change from one day to the next under certain conditions. The answer is in the conditions as much as it is in the perpetrators.

This entire incident is shocking and incredibly sad and distressing. Scoring brownie points off it by taking gratuitous potshots at the gun control folk is just low. I m not one of them - I have a weapon, a navy issue revolver that needs to be cleared by bureaucrats in both countries before it can be brought into Canada. But somehow, after reading what you lot have to say, I think I support the gun control folk. In the armed forces, a tab is kept on the behavior of individuals. Cant say the same for the public. I sure as hell wouldnt trust WLMKR with a gun.

This is a very sad day. We try to protect are children, get them graduated safely and send them of to college to get a higher education. Some nut bar can come in and destroy everything - just like that.
I can not imagine what the students, teachers and parents are going through.
My prayers go out to the victims, families and the school.

I sure as hell wouldnt [sic] trust WLMKR with a gun.

I sure as hell wouldn't trust you running government. You erstaz-Stalin.

The trolls go marching one by one hurrah, hurrah...

Jeremiah,

If you won't be needing that revolver anymore can I have it?

I'm sure the usual suspects will be blamed too. Video Games, Music and Global Warming.

My condolences go out to all families affected by this terrible tragedy.

No doubt all sides will be drawing their respective political swords over this issue.

According to the mindless, leftist trolls, guns should only be in the possession of criminals, madmen and state-controlled police. Great! I feel better already.

And no, I'm not twisting what you say, mindless troll. Criminals are criminals because they don't obey the law...you will never disarm criminals unless and until you create Gestapo and SS wings of the police forces...which I wouldn't doubt is your ultimate goal.

jeremiah:

This statement of yours greatly offends me.

"Engineering is one of the most high stress faculties in any university in any part of the world. Science is not far behind, especially if you need the perfect scores required for med schools. They are very specialised fields, and there is no room for error. It essentially defines their lives."

You are obviously not an engineer. So let me school you.

On most Canadian campuses the Engineering students are the biggest partiers around. Sort of the equivalent of the Greek system of American schools. The motto "work hard, play harder" means something to us. We know how to blow off steam and are not pressure cookers waiting to blow.

I did not worry about making zero errors. I did not worry about getting perfect grades.

What I did do though was:

1. Took a full engineering course load and recieved decent grades.
2. Worked a near full-time job at the SAME time to pay for it.
3. Pulled all-nighters when I needed to.
4. Got pissed every weekend to blow off steam.
5. Cut classes when required to have some fun.

And my fellow students all had pretty similar experiences.

To stereo type us as overworked, overstressed and on the verge of a mental melt down shows what a retard you are.

WL Mackenzie Redux

Not only armed guards but also Prof's should be forced to carry a sidearm think of it as the price for diversity.

The thugs never hit police stations or army bases. And our liberal societies sure seem to have this happen a lot.

I wonder how often it happened before the 60's.

A few threads ago.
1. Scenario: Jack pulls into school parking lot with rifle in gun rack.

1956 - Vice Principal comes over, takes a look at Jack's rifle, goes to his car and gets his to show Jack.
2006 - School goes into lockdown, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

Good timing kate maybe if the teachers carried weapons none would have died.

They should after all bear the responsibility for the diversity of our society, Gamil Gharbi, Kimveer Gill,

Liberalism has made society more dangerous they need to accept responsibility. So when this happens, they should shoot back.

Virginia Tech student Blake Harrison said he was on his way to class near Norris Hall when he saw chaos.

"This teacher comes flying out of Norris, he's bleeding from his arm or his shoulder ...

Instead of running the teachers should do some shooting, with 5 round mags of course.

If you are so filled with hate (as most leftards are) that you don't trust yourself to use a gun responsibly that is fine. Don't get a gun. But do not tell me that I must be rendered defenseless because of your own inability and unwillingness to defend yourself and your family.

Sorry. I wasn't going to get political on this one but I could bite my lip no longer.

There is one reason, and one reason only that this monster was able to kill and injure so many people without being stopped. Nobody on campus had the ability to stop an armed killer.

Ever notice that these guys never go and shoot up a police station?

Wikipedia is maintaining a running summary with references to current reporting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shootings

MaryM

Well put.

The question remains how can society stop someone who is so blinded by sadness, rage, humiliation, etc. from going on a rampage like this?

This kid was a terrorist.

I wonder if, like many others, he left a murder/suicide note stating why he did what he did.

Did his parents/guardians not notice he was having trouble coping with school/life?

Too many of us don't pay enough attention to signs that are there.

No, no one is to blame for these killings but the shooter himself, but there are no doubt behaviors that this man exhibited that should have raised some red flags to those around him.

Reid,

I never meant to suggest that all Engineering students are timebombs waiting to go off. I did mechanical engineering in a different era.Stress levels were lower but so were expectation.

I m not stereotyping anyone as anything. Once in a while, there is someone who is "overworked, overstressed and on the verge of a mental meltdown". Go to your own college's mental health section and find out how your faculty figures. Some commit suicide. Others do what this insane fellow has done. I m not saying engineers are all ticking timebombs. But the likelihood of having such a ticking bomb depends on the department. Go speak to the counselling services at your own school to see who shows up.

Tell me, what type of engineer are you? And lets not lower ourselves to namecalling.

I just watched the press conference. The media were asking the hard questions, as is their job to do so.
The investigation is in the initial stages and as a result there are many unanswered questions for now.
Some of the questions were absolutely absurd in their intent. Somewhat like some of the comments offered here. Knee jerk reactions from both sides of the political spectrum. I don't think it is wise to postulate on any aspect of this tragedy until all the facts are presented. I hold personal thoughts on this but I don't think it is in anyone's best interest to comment on what or what not shoulda/coulda/woulda be done until we all know more.
Just my opinion.

[quote]Why is the onus on students to buy guns to protect themselves? Why isnt the onus on the state to keep guns out of peoples hands? The state has responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is PROTECTING citizens. It is a responsibility given to the state by the citizens.[/quote]

Ummm, jeremiah, there are a number of problems with your pollyannish statements above, not the least of which is that the state CAN'T "keep guns out of people's hands", any more than the state can keep heroin, or alcohol, or marijuana, or almost any OTHER commodity out of people's hands. A gun is a simple machine that can be built by anyone with $10 in their pocket, and we can't even keep people IN PRISON from building guns. What exactly are you smoking that makes you think you can stop anyone on the outside from making them? Second, the state DOESN'T have either the ability or responsibility for "protecting people"; if they were, you would be able to sue the state when they failed to protect you, and no government is going to open itself up to that sort of thing (precisely because they know that they can't be everywhere all the time).

Oh, and by the way..I'd trust WLMKR beside me with a gun any day of the week. Especially when some psycho is shooting at me. I suspect, Jeremiah, that as you were pissing yourself you would be glad to have an honest armed citizen beside you protecting your pathetic existence.

Albatross,
Kate is perfectly capable of neutering you on her own and does not need anyone coming to her defense. However, it should be obvious that is not a news service, it is a blog. She lives a life in between posting and is not available to post for days a at time depending on her schedule. It is also not her responsibility to post threads that suit your fancy but hers. Get lost and go join you ideological buddy Kevin Potvin and start your own blog. I think the "Verbal Vomit From Pond Scum" would be an appropriate name.

albatross - you are a young and ignorant student; I'm guessing in sociology - where else would one write a term paper on Birdman/Alcatraz - and you need to stop blindly flinging criticisms around without grounding them in FACTS.

Your claim that SDA was wrong to post about the VT massacre instead of posting about the loss of military lives in Afghanistan is an invalid analogy. There's no comparison between a criminal act and a loss of life in a military campaign. Plus, there is no 'either-or' situation in posting. Get your own blog and post what you want and don't criticize what's posted on other blogs. And again - posting isn't an 'either this post OR that post'.

You are now claiming that SDA is run by 'right wing fascists'. Here we go again - you are flinging out terms which you haven't defined and very obviously don't, yourself, understand. So, because you don't know what they mean, you are using them as name-calling. That shows you up as a juvenile.

By the way, fascism is a socialist ideology and is not 'right-wing'- but, don't let the facts bother you.

Now, how about being accountable and responsible - and answer my questions about fascism and Harper. Or - are your opinions controlled and closed (by you) and not open to criticism?

Your comment on Bush is juvenile. Kindly remember the role of the State in the US governance, and the actual role of the Governor of the State, who refused federal help - and the role of the Mayor, who also refused help.

Again, grow up - and be accountable. I asked you to stop name-calling, which is juvenile, and be accountable for your terms. Define fascism and explain how Harper is a fascist and how his followers are fascists.

Dr Wright

"Instead of running the teachers should do some shooting, with 5 round mags of course."

Right. And kill a couple more students in the cross fire.

johnnyboy,

Quit the bullcrap. If guns were banned, you wouldnt need to protect yourself from a gunman.

Wait for the facts before you make these kinds of inane statements. No one knows yet how he acquired the weapon. Somehow I think it would be easier for him to obtain it legally than illegally. Illegal guns arent readily available. Legal guns are. And both can kill.

Jerimiah opined: "In a capitalist system, it is not uncommon to NOT protect oneself against extremely low risks, especially when money is involved."

...and this: "Why isnt the onus on the state to keep guns out of peoples hands?"

What a foolish statement. Whether it's Americans without health insurance or apartment owners facing a fire without insurance, they are hardly what I would consider the 'capitalist class'.

The capitalist, whether a small business person or a large ivestor, understands risk and the need to protect oneself from it. It's the person who believes it can't (or won't) happen to themselves\, that does nothing to mitigate the danger.

Then, when the 'unexpected' happens, they are suddenly the victim - the typical poor, insuranceless apartment renter. Way too often, the money that should have been spent on 'personal protection' loses out to the priority of other 'essentials' - too often drugs, alcohol, casinos or other choices.

Poor bashing? No. Just reality, where those of a 'socialist' mindset expect others to pick up the pieces of their self-shattered lives.

As for the 'state' protecting us - why is it that those who expect the 'state' to protect us, are so against the 'state' when it takes pro-active measures, as in Afghanistan?

Don't we have a billion dollar gun registry protecting us? Does it make you feel safer? BTW, as someone pointed out, at approx. $100k/yr per bureaucrat, the much vaunted registry required 1,000 person years to create - for a database.

Yup. I feel much safer now.

Jeremiah,

Guns were banned from the campus. Guns have been banned from Washington DC for 30 years (#1 or #2 in per cap murders ever since) and ditto for Chicago. Ask any cop how easy it is to obtain an illegal firearm. It is much easier than doing it legally.

It doesn't really matter how he obtained his weapon. Guns will always be available no matter how hard you make it for law abiding citizens to obtain them.

If you really are a mechanical engineer of any ability then you should know how easily it would be for someone to make guns should they ever be totally banned from manufacture.

Perhaps you should at least make an attempt to learn the facts before you make your inane comments.

Very sad day. One is too many.

"not the least of which is that the state CAN'T "keep guns out of people's hands", any more than the state can keep heroin, or alcohol, or marijuana, or almost any OTHER commodity out of people's hands."

Right, so should we legalise these substances or should we work actively to cut of the supply lines? This line of thinking says the bad guys will have a gun anyway, so why shouldnt I to protect myself? Its a fair assessment, but is making a gun available to every Tom, Dick, and Harry a viable solution? Tom and Dick might be the sanest of the sane, but Harry need only have one bad day... someone HAS TO control who gets guns and who doesnt.

"A gun is a simple machine that can be built by anyone with $10 in their pocket, and we can't even keep people IN PRISON from building guns."

This is true. Nothing can stop you from making Improvised Explosive Devices either. Why not start selling mines at department stores.

"Second, the state DOESN'T have either the ability or responsibility for "protecting people";"

Yes, yes it does. Law enforcement agencies are there for "protecting communities". The Army is there to protect the nation. The implicit understanidng is that state institutions will protect ALL CITIZENS regardless of color creed race religion etc. They are REQUIRED to do so. They are not allowed to sit aside and watch.

"if they were, you would be able to sue the state when they failed to protect you, and no government is going to open itself up to that sort of thing (precisely because they know that they can't be everywhere all the time)."

THis passage reveals a lot about how little you have thought things through. If a man were to assault you in the presence of a police officer, and if the police officer were to ignore this, would you not complain? You dont have to sue, but isnt it a given that the police officer should intervene and if he doesnt he has to give an explanation?

And Maher Arar? What did that whole episode teach you about state responsibilites to the citizen?

Albertaman
"It is also not her responsibility to post threads that suit your fancy but hers."

Dead Canadian troops in Afghanistan and Conservative scandals don't rate comment here, because it will cast the cons in a negative light. However dead American students almost instantly get mention.

[Deleted - off topic. I realize ET prodded you to do this but it's still off topic. I suggest you two take it to E-mail. -ED]

I have one other comment: We are four days short of the 8th anniversary of the Columbine shooting. My father was in the hospital, his last days nearing. I went into visit, told him of what happened. His words were from a quote from Winston Churchill. Prime Minister Churchill was leaving after a meeting with President Roosevelt and he said to the presidents aid: " Watch the presidents back, there are a lot of bastards in the world." Never was a comment more to the point. Again, it applies to this shooter.

And the topic of this thread is the tragic shooting at Virginia Tech, not what you think of SDA or the topics it covers.

albatros
I would encourage you to start your own blog and discuss alleged scandals there if it interests you this much. I would be happy to post a response there. In the mean time, I and many like me here are reflecting on the tragedy of the deaths of so many promising young people at VT.

Says Jeremiah:
"Quit the bullcrap. If guns were banned, you wouldnt need to protect yourself from a gunman."
Jerry,
Are you for real? I guess you must never lock your house and you must always leave your vehicle unlocked with the keys in it having bought into the lefty mantra that no individual person is bad, only a victim of society. Do you really think that if something is against the law ('banned as you put it') that criminals will respect that? What an ultra-idiot you are!!!!

Albie39....There is a difference between Canadian soldiers killed in A'stan and who knows how many students killed at their school.Soldiers voluntarily choose to die defending what they feel is right. What student goes to school expecting to die because they are taking some course? If this where the case,I dare say that college,etc enrollement would plumment to zero. Please remeber that those who die in conflict trying to protect my, and your, way of life choose it,right or wrong. These are innocents, and as such they do rightfully deserve are prayers. But do not try to compare one against the other.
And as for Kate's decision to post what she wants, well, she has posted on Conservative scandals, and soldiers in Af'stan. Check out the sidebar.

Randy,

"The capitalist, whether a small business person or a large ivestor, understands risk and the need to protect oneself from it. It's the person who believes it can't (or won't) happen to themselves\, that does nothing to mitigate the danger."

The University chose not to. The University should have armed guards. Not armed students. A drunk student with a gun - thats a scary thought.

johnnyboy,

"If you really are a mechanical engineer of any ability then you should know how easily it would be for someone to make guns should they ever be totally banned from manufacture.'

So your solution is that since it can be made by anyone, lets arm everyone. The classic deterrent thinking. Reminds me of those political scientists who said all nations should have nukes- it would bring stability. Ostensibly. The problem is you only need one North Korea to cause irreversible damage. They will use it REGARDLESS of the repercussions. Same with guns. A madman with a gun will use it whatever the consequences. He will have the opportunity to kill first. That in turn will trigger the response of shooting him dead. But wihtout guns, that opportunity to kill first wouldnt arise. The damage takes place during that opportunity. Somebody has to point this out and fight against all guns. Call them nitwits or whatever, what they are doing is legitimate. They do have a point, albeit one that is falling victim to your self fulfilling 'Humans will always buy guns and make them if need be' logic.

Building a gun is not something you do in your spare time, and certainly not something anyone can pull off. I m sure I can build a gun, never given it much thought, but the process would involve a lot of risks. Its not as easy as you claim. I can assure you of that much.

Jeremiah said:

Yes, yes it does. Law enforcement agencies are there for "protecting communities". The Army is there to protect the nation. The implicit understanidng is that state institutions will protect ALL CITIZENS regardless of color creed race religion etc. They are REQUIRED to do so. They are not allowed to sit aside and watch.

Actually not they're not, and no they can't. Cdn courts have long held that police have no obligateion to protect individuals, only "society", and they do this by investigating crime, arresting and making examples of lawbreakers for the rest of us. As far as personal protection is concerned, you are very much on your own. As to sitting aside and watching, wander down to Caledonia sometime...

Jremiha said: " I sure as hell wouldnt trust WLMKR with a gun."

Funny the government does the forces did and I have clearances you can only dream about...and a lengthy proven history of responsible firearms ownership as a safety trainer and instructor as well as a comptetive shooter.

What have you got to recommend your ownership of a firearm? Off the top I'd say your simpering paranoia indicates a mental instability not condusive to firearms ownership.

Come back and whine when you find out there is no way for you to inmport your handgun because you haven't the proper grandfatherd status to do it.

Personaly I suspect you're another lefty troll and are making the whole story up to validate your twisted ideas of civil liberty.

Albatross 39a is a troll from the yahoo boards.He does the sockpuppet routine,posts questions & then answers.He pretends that he is ex Canadian forces (retired).He is also one of the trolls who dominated the yahoo news boards 24/7 and led to their demise.He is also rabidly pro liberal.

Says Jeremiah:
"Quit the bullcrap. If guns were banned, you wouldnt need to protect yourself from a gunman."
My parents were in Russia when the communists came and took all their guns, they were lucky to get out before the communists came back and killed 20 million unarmed Russians.

Armed security in all schools will have to be a fact of life. No farmer or hunter's rifle would be capable of exacting such carnage.

No gun registries will save lives but thats what we'll be hearing now from we know who.

If a deranged person wants to shoot people he'll plan it and get the weapon to do it, no matter what he has to do to get it.

Sadly all we can do is mourn the innocent lives lost in a school massacre yet again.

I was watching the coverage in the gym. It seems incredible that there were killings at 7:00 am. and then a couple of hours later in a classroom.
And I was astonished at the loss of life: over 30 and many injured.

Tears and prayers.

It occurred to me that perhaps so many were murdered because the first shooting was in a dorm. Were people sleeping? I'll bet they were. Classes didn't start till 8:00 a.m. and a lot of the students wouldn't have classes until much later.

I have a daughter living in a college dorm, so this tragedy is a little too close for comfort.

WHAT is going on with our young people?

BTW, commenters need to pay more attention to who is posting these threads. It is quite obviouis that Jaeger is the "host blogger" and "ED" of this post.

Pay attention, those of you who are slinging mud at Kate. Don't, BTW, begin to sling mud at Jaeger, but at least have the courtesy to read who posted the thread.

WAKE UP!

Jeremiah,

The deterrent effect is a bonus. All I really care about is to have the ability to protect myself from thugs should the need ever arise. Leaving my safety up to the government is ludicrous. They can't even look after the roads.

Building a gun is easy enough. Anyone with a lathe and some machining skills can pump them out. There would definitely be a lucrative black market for them.

posted by albatros39a

"Dead Canadian troops in Afghanistan and Conservative scandals don't rate comment here, because it will cast the cons in a negative light."

Geez your dumb. The cons did not put the troops in Afganistan.

[quote]Right, so should we legalise these substances or should we work actively to cut of the supply lines? This line of thinking says the bad guys will have a gun anyway, so why shouldnt I to protect myself? Its a fair assessment, but is making a gun available to every Tom, Dick, and Harry a viable solution? Tom and Dick might be the sanest of the sane, but Harry need only have one bad day... someone HAS TO control who gets guns and who doesnt. [/quote]

And that's what the current "gun control" schemes try to do, by making sure that only vetted people can buy guns legally; despite that, there is NOTHING that's going to stop "Harry" from getting all the guns he or she wants. YOUR "solution"? "Just treat EVERYONE like they're a deranged killer." Well, if you're happy being treated like a deranged killer, who am I to tell you that you're wrong? History shows that ordinary citizens have a far better record than governments or their agents when it comes to mass murders, so I'm happy to trust my neighbours with firearms, in exactly the same way I'm willing to trust them with automobiles, or gasoline, or fertilizer, or baseball bats, or with anything else that might be used as a weapon.

"He pretends that he is ex Canadian forces (retired)."
Dougie...you must be kidding,right? Any of us here who are actually ex-Forces would not even begin to remotely take this pup seriously. But then again,maybe you are right,as s/he doesn't know it is illegal to impersonate either a cop,serving military,or ex.
And trust me,if it came down to who I would want on my back,WLMR would be second only to my old mate.

And yes jaeger. I will try to keep on topic of the murders of the students,but sometimes stupity gets to me.Off to check out the news channels :)

BTW Jeramiah : It's a choice isn't it. No one is forcing anyone to carry a gun...or to have campuses hire proper armed security commenserate with the number of people whose saftey they are responsible for. But in a Post 9/11 world where sociopaths make political points and air personal greivences by mass murder in public places , I think it is Pollyanna naivity to think public places are as safe as they once were.

I know what my choice is....I won't go to public places where I or my family are insuficiently protected from this risk. I do not feel safe on campuses or subways or mass transit terminals or large public venues...the main reason is there is too little security and by law I am not allowed to defend my own life from armed criminal aggression that I can in my home or on my property.

If you don't want kids to be hurt don't send them to large public places where they have absolutely no protection against attacks by terrorist/sociopaths (which is essentially the method of this Virginia mad man). In one way we can be grateful this was a nutter with a gun and not a determined terror attck using explosives which would have made the death toll far greater.

I blame the school first which had no cohesive plan to deal with a terror stike ( which is irresponsible in this day) and secondly the authorities for dragging their butt in dealing with this situation....we further note that the students rather than evacuate followed the insane instructions which told them the stay put thus providing the nutter with ready targets/victims.

I wonder if this tragic loss will serve as a wake-up call to the administrators of large public venues...make them realize that when large unarmed numbers of civilians are using their venue, THEY are responsible for their safety!!

Your gunless utopia is a dytopian pipe dream and that mindset was largely responsible for the fatalities at this school. They were unprepared to protect/defend against a terror-styled incident. I suppose you conveniently forget that Israeli schools learned the hard way the need for school security...even the Russians were not immune from it in their firearms free society. If things were as safe as you say, police would not carry firearms and we could disband the army.

So in this day and age your anti defense dream scape is distinctly dangerous.

We don't have the details on this nutter yet, but I'm willing to bet that he fits the pattern of the other school rampage killers:

Emotionally immature

On some prescribed psychotropic medication

telegraphed his intentions very clearly

gave authorities plenty of warning (the real nutters use this as a suicide by cop)

Had no normal sporting interest in firearms

Gave authorities plenty of time to make a terminal intervention in his rampage

All too easy to blame the millions of responsible firearms owners and the sporting arms culture of the US than it is to address core issues.

And as always it will be the usual lib-left anti-gun lobbies and media that will wallow in the blood of these innocents in their quest for egalitarianism...to make us all equal victims.

I was not going to post anything. Being in the academic environment myself, it's doing my imagination no good. My regards and condolences go out to all those suffering the loss of family and friends

I had thought to wait until a more opportune time to address the larger issues, but jeremiah is spouting nanny state nonsense.

The state has the duty to administer justice. The police are for the apprehension of criminals, not the prevention of crime. Their role is to investigate and to lay charges. If by their presence, crime rates drop, then fine. Your perception is that of the police state. I highly object. Any crime prevention scheme that requires the arming of “law enforcement officers” and the disarming of citizens is totalitarian. The track record of totalitarian societies is not good

“THis (sic) passage reveals a lot about how little you have thought things through…. but isnt it a given that the police officer should intervene and if he doesnt he has to give an explanation?” As for police “not allowed to sit aside and watch”: read your newspaper! One word: Caledonia.

Police have political masters.

Hell I bought a 12gauge flaregun just a week ago and lo and behold a shotgun shell slid right in and the thing didnt blow up when fired. go figure.

Another poll gone wrong;

“In light of the horrific shootings..”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/poll/pollResultHub?id=56317&pollid=56317&answerid=68103&poll=GAMFront&save=_save56317&show_vote_always=no&hub=Front&subhub=VoteResult&vote=68103

"Hell I bought a 12gauge flaregun just a week ago and lo and behold a shotgun shell slid right in and the thing didnt blow up when fired. go figure."

You better watch that FREE...in Canada a flairgun loaded with a shot shell becomes a prohibited weapon...a 10 year sentace awaits those so charged.

However, say you happen to deploy said jerry rigged flairgun some day to defend yourself and family from a armed intruder in your home...I'm thinking the weapons charge is the least of your worries when you stare into the face of a potential murder...do what you have to and trust in the inviolable wisdom and empathy of 12 of your peers at your trial...because if you are lucky enough to dispatch this murdering goblin and survive the ordeal, the nanny state will surely charge the vicim of his foiled murder ( you) with a crime for defending yourself...the current nanny state will always charge a suviving armed victim with asault or murder 3.

Pray you do not get dystopian twits like Jeremiha on the jury who believe you should have layed down your life to validate their disfunctional ideas of justice. ;-)

Canadian Forces can't use force in Canada except in self defence (or in certain other specific instances which are classified).

Police will help, but aren't obliged to if the risk to themselves is excessive.

We all have the inherent right of self defence under the law, provided the use of force is proportional and not excessive.

Bottom line - don't rely on the state to protect you.

Gawd, it sure didn't take the Globe and Mail long to drag out the old handgun whore for another flogging, did it? Glad to see some people aren't taking the bait (or tolerating it).

"The problem is not civilian firearms ownership...it is the inability of the state and public institutions to protect unarmed/disarmed civilians."

I think this is precisely right.

Belisaris said: "We all have the inherent right of self defence under the law, provided the use of force is proportional and not excessive."
You do in theory ( as per CCsec 25-31) but in practical application of the law the way it is applied today you don't.

Again the Jurocracy has "read into" the criminal code a test of justified force which is so narrow/restrictive that virtually any use of a firearm in defence against armed criminal aggression will net a crown criminal charge of the victim.

I have seen this too many times in following self defense cases over the last 2 decades. Canadian crown attorneys are following a policy that UK crown used to, where virtually any defensive use of a firearm is punished.

The social engineering goal is to intimidate firearms owners and to levey as many charges that net revokation of firearms ownership priviledges as possible...a distinctly dyatopian judicial doctrine.

In Britain this backfired when home invaders became so emboldened by the court charging their victims, that they started attacking the elite in their masions in the countryside...then something happened...they repealed this policy and passed the homeowner defense act which allowed armed defense in the home again.

Canada is a cloistered socialist backwater that always drags behind western culture in the civil liberties department....so don't hold your breath waiting to see a similar home defense statute here....even though most of our upper middle class population lives in an area where an 9-1-1 call is a 15-30 min. response time.

My condolences to the families. Incredibly, it is possible that there are two unrelated shooting incidents here.

Jerry said"Wait for the facts before you make these kinds of inane statements. No one knows yet how he acquired the weapon. Somehow I think it would be easier for him to obtain it legally than illegally. Illegal guns arent readily available. Legal guns are. And both can kill"

Get out of your mother's basement and join real life,little boy.I can go to ANY downtown area in ANY city (population over 10,000)in Canada right now and buy a firearm of the street. But then that would make me a criminal, so I guess I would register the "purchase" with the legal authorities. Just like all gang members and criminals do. Twit.

And just released.Murderer was armed with two(2) 9mm handguns.

Darn.Hit post too soon. 2 pistols(9mm).Shows this was a nutcase.Anybody worth the salt wouldn't take a pop-gun to a gunfight.But then there was no gunfight here,as 32 were executed,using the favorite weapon of assassins.And they could not,by law,defend themselves.Know maybe why our and American troopies are heading to war? It is safer than your front street.Just ask the denizens of Washington,D.C. or Jane and Finch.

WL Mackenzie Redux,

You're absolutely right - in almost every instance defensive use of firearms results in charges. Two decades ago, when my neighbourhood pharmacist was subjected to an armed robbery he responded with a shotgun, killing one of the bandits.

He was charged with murder, but elected trial by jury and was acquitted. In the meantime, he had legal costs, a disrupted life, press coverage, etc.

After the trial, he returned to his business for another 15 years. There was a hole in one wall from a shotgun blast, and he never repaired it. He was never robbed again.

But,but Belisarius....the "poor,underprivelged" person (criminal) only wanted an easy way to make money.Isn't that what it (socialism) is all about? Robbing the working man because you are too lazy,stupid,etc,whatever excuse you can make up,to get an honest job yourself?
And kudos to the pharmicist.
And please,all you lefties out there,don't give me the "think of his poor mommy" line.

Watchin CNN...they had an unapologetic campus security expert on who pinned the confusion and lack of reponse planning by campus admin for allowing this to go as far as it did...she essentially stated they had no bloody plan wahtsoever to deal with any emergency...prompting her to question if they even had a fire how many would perish from lack of evac planning.

I dunno - I think it's a little early to criticize the security folks. Unless you happen to have an armed guard inside the building at the time there isn't much they can do. Certainly any response will take take longer than the time it takes to empty a couple of magazines.

And you have to expect a certain amount of confusion in these situations.

-ALERT- -ALERT- -ALERT-

Guess what folks, the murderer is from communist China who was in the US on a student visa. Looks like he was taking his revenge on soft evil Americans for being jilted by his capitalst imperialist decadent girlfriend.

Due to the wendy kookiers, political correctness, human rights judges and many others, it is now impossible for the police to act first and ask questions later. In many cases they can not act until someone does something against them, or another person. Victimhood has made it much easier and sit there and wait for someone else to do something. Instead of marching to take back the night, or protest against Isreal, maybe we should start taking back our rights to defend ourselves from all those leftists out there. Face the fact, bad people do evil things and no amount of night basketball is going to stop it.
I think it would be a nice gesture if the students from cdn schools that have experienced shootings, would go to a memorial service for the latest victims. In Alberta it is mandatory to lock down all schools when an attack takes place at any school anywhere.
People in charge of any institution are afraid to make decisions on their own, and must go thru how many layers of red tape. Classes should have been cancelled by someone, even if it was the police.

After watching a few different networks today and after watching him for years now, am I the only that thinks having Neil MacDonald reporting on the US is something akin to having Don Cherry reporting on European hockey?

Civil authorities cannot defend us in the vast majority of cases; those who put their faith in the police are living in a fantasy land. Police can prosecute, patrol, and rush to the scene ... but they can't, and don't, stop most serious attempts at murder. All they can do is pick up the pieces, then watch as panty-waist judges and paroll boards kick thugs back out onto the streets. At best, we get lucky, with cops in the area and cops who are aggressive.

I ask you to imagine what kind of a system you'd need in order for police to be able to prevent murder from happening? They can't be everywhere, on every corner, in every house, on every campus. We make them lock up the same perps again and again, run them off their feet chasing ordinary bad guys, how are they to take on the nut-case killers who have no record?

I lived in rural Canada in a potentially very violent setting with police 45 to 75 minutes away. We learned to take care of ourselves ... and guess what, our towns were safe because "we" protected ourselves ... that's in Canada, people, with guns, in every house ... I'm not making this up. We were safe ... but ...

I understand that this comparison can't for certain reasons extend to the cities; one being that cities are ant hills. I don't advocate a society where everyone is packing heat ... but I do understand that there is no way on this living earth that a police force can protect everyone, all the time ... as some would like to think. If the bad guy comes for you ... you will be on your own.

I think it's about time folks began looking at what, in our liberal democracies, makes a person want to murder a whole bunch of kids, instead of just committing suicide the old fashioned way.

I make my living instructing institutions and individuals in ways of avoiding violence; and there is no consensus in the literature, and I know the literature. Politicians tell us there is consensus depending on right/left; but the people who study this say it is too complex. They advocate a whole spectrum of things ... some psychology based, some statute based, and some society based.

For what it's worth, I believe that the single most effect thing we could do to prevent mass murder like today is the one thing that is impossible ... never, ever, under any circumstance, report it.

It is my belief, that the massive reporting of these events guarantees the next one. I'd be willing to bet that today, at this very moment, the next nut-case killing was launched, as some desperate person watched and saw the massive attention. If you want to go out in a blaze of glory ... do a Virginia Tech; CNN, CBC, and we here at this blog, will be guaranteed to give you all the attention you didn't get in life.

Nix the news though, and the nuts just may go back to hanging themselves.

My view on this is supported by some of the pros ... but not that many.

I'll now quit eating up comments space :) ... maybe

For what it's worth, I believe that the single most effect thing we could do to prevent mass murder like today is the one thing that is impossible ... never, ever, under any circumstance, report it.

Yeah, I think that would probably work, too. But it's obviously not possible in a free society. Generally free societies benefit from the corrective attention and inquiries that big tragedies draw, but unfortunately it gives nutcases a chance go out in a blaze of glory. Alas, there's nothing we can do about it.

cjunk - I'll disagree. I don't think that publicity is a necessary or even probably cause of a massacre. As you say, the issue is complex and can't be reduced to a single cause.

The fact is, any living organism, whether it be a beetle, bird, dog or human - is necessarily an active agent. This means both self-protecting and attacks on others. It is a basic facet of 'being alive'.
The attack-actions can be constrained - but, what brings them on?

In one case, the cause may be abusive upbringing, but it is not true that an abusive childhood always leads to aberrant behaviour. However, this is often given as a cause of criminal adult behaviour.

In one case, the cause may be an innate psychological nature - and no socialization can readily deal with that. A sociopath or schizophrenic is not caused by their upbringing or by violence on the media.

In one case, the cause may be violent socialization - a favorite at the moment amongst analysts - who will blame 'violent videos' for this behaviour. Again, this is not a strict causal relation.

In one case, the violent socialization will be communal, as in a society of fascists, where the norm of young men, is an act of violence.

It's simply too complex to be reduced to any one cause. And that means that it's difficult to control or prevent such violence.

I certainly think that more rigid behavioural norms in school and in the society would establish deeper societal constraints against individuals 'acting out' - in the minor social areas of violence, such as in bullying, teasing, fighting. But, with regard to major acts of violence - I wonder how a society can prevent those types of actions.

After an event like today, I'm very glad that the US constitution has the second ammendment. This will prevent any emotional gun bans by hoplophobes. What the US should be doing is taking a very serious look at their gun free zones, a policy which I believe applied to many universities. Virginia is a state in which concealed carry by non-felons is allowed, and anywhere else in the state, a psychotic homicdal maniac would be stopped rather quickly by a citizen who was armed. Statistics back up the lower number of homicides/single incident in concealed carry states compared to states which prohibit concealed carry (still trying to remember the reference as I have a copy of the paper somewhere in my possession)

Any large crowd of unarmed people is a prime hunting ground for mass murderers. I avoid such areas as much as practically possible. I personally feel much more comfortable in a group of people where everyone is armed. I have yet to hear of a single episode at a rifle range where one of the individuals decided to start shooting people at random. Surely, in the logic of the anti-gunners, rifle ranges would be expected to be slaughterhouses given the high concentrations of firepower and testosterone that exist there.

Means by which people die seem to be of immense interest to the news media. If someone had driven a bus into a crowd at high speed and killed 32 people, this incident would get far less coverage than a lone gunman hunting down the same number of victims. Numerous incidents of vehicular homicide have not engendered any widespread outrage and calls for the banning of automobiles (which, if applied in Vancouver, would make the city streets far safer). After all, no-one in a city needs an automobile.

Time to dust off the firearms research papers and prepare to meet the inevitable exploitation of this incident by hoplophobes.

ET: Firearms have been with us, in our society for centuries now. Firearms with repeating capability, and hence mass death, have been with us since the turn of the century ... when by the way, there were virtually no restriction and ownership was very common. Abuse existed. Violent socialization existed. etc.

What's Changed? What are the "big" factors in existance today, which were not present then?

I'll agree it's complex, but given that most of these cases are murder suicides; why now in our day and age do more people choose the mass murder suicide. If this gunman was from China as they say, and only since August, he wasn't even born and raised in our culture.

I'll stick to my thesis (but only cautiously) that today and in the coming weeks the media frenzy will plant the seeds in the brain of the next mass killer. That some broken person will fixate on this, and it'll take one event in their life to turn their death fantasy into action. I'll almost bet, that we'll have an attempt or lesser event very shortly.

But, like I said before, the experts don't agree; and I'm not a researcher, just an instructor.

Maybe we need compulsory 2 years in the military for everybody. Male and female. It probably wouldn't eliminate such happenings, but would make them less frequent. It would probably reintroduce some respect for people and property too.

If the cops can't protect you, and in case after case they haven't, why are we expecting outcomes to be different in the "gun free zones" the lefties demand of us. Who knows this morning if a faculty member, an employee, an ex-military grad student with a licensed gun in their car could have made a difference. It did in a case a few years ago when a student and an off duty cop student went to their cars and got their guns. The slob was killed after he killed two in a college library.

Pity the MSM, what a quandary, the perpetrator isn't the stereotypical white male.

I'm sickened for these families. I suspect there are some ugly truths yet to come on the whimpy behaviors of the campus and local police. I'd love to know what was known about this student - bomb threats(?) and the girl friends fears.

Jeremiah opined that: "The University chose not to. The University should have armed guards."

Hmmph. This is a guy who would then jump up and down declaring that the University was using unwarranted and fascist measure that infringe on the public freedoms of the members of the student union.

The left: they love to construct no win situations.

This incident may be what it takes to eliminate gun-free zones in the US. Under the 2nd Ammendment, US citizens have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. The policy at Virginia Tech was to ban firearms from the campus thus depriving students of their constitutional rights. The only way in which students can be compensated for the loss of their constitutional rights is to provide armed security at a level equivalent to that of a population in which concealed carry is allowed.

Merely stating that the campus is a "gun free zone" is completely inadequate; it is about as usefull as prohibitions against theft, certain politically incorrect drugs, etc. The only way in which the university would be able to provide equivalent security would be through the provision of an armed security force which is present in sufficient numbers to provide an equivalent deterrance to mass murder that currently exists in the remainder of the state of Virginia through their CCW laws. This would probably require armed guards in every classroom, patrolling every hallway, and doing this 24 hours/day. These guards would have to be trained to the same level of proficiency that people who chose to carry concealed are and, in terms of markmanship, usually these individuals are far more accurate than police given that they spend a lot more time on the range than police do. Only in this setting could the university argue that their violation of the 2nd ammendment posed no increased danger to students.

The costs of providing this level of security in every university in the US would be prohibitive, but if a lawyer decided to use this argument to sue the university on behalf of relatives of the students killed, the cost to the university would be even greater.

The only solution to this problem is to allow unrestricted concealed carry on all university campuses and school grounds.

Incidents like this do not happen in isolation. My prediction is that there will be 2-4 copycat attacks in gun free zones in the next few months as has been the case in every widely publicized act of mass murder by a lone deranged gunman around the world. Look how close the timing is of Vernon homicides, Dunblane and Australian shootings in Tasmania in 1996.

Cjunk
"What's Changed? What are the "big" factors in existance today, which were not present then?"

What changed? WHAT CHANGED?
In the 1930s a person could purchase a Thompson Machine Gun through mail order.

A while ago I caught the movie Carrie on a cable movie network. If you've never seen this movie it shows graphic scenes of Carrie’s dead mother hanging by knives stuck in her hands and it shows seven knives in total sticking out of the woman's torso after Carrie supposedly killed her. It shows a couple of people rolling to a fiery death of a car crash. It shows John Travolta supposedly beating a pig to death with a club. It shows a gymnasium with hundreds of people inside being burned to death.
In the movie there is a very brief nude scene when Sissy Spacec takes a bath. Now after showing all of these people being violently killed, what do they cut out? They cut out Carrie's nude scene. It’s the most peaceful serine part in the entire movie.
We live in a society where graphic violence on the screen fine for children to see, especially if you can make money on it, but you better not show a nipple at the Super Bowl.

So what changed?
Average people now are indoctrinated through their entertainment into thinking that pulling a trigger and killing humans is an easy solution to a problem. Every once in a while somebody wants that easy solution to make all their problems go away and reality takes a back seat, so they go out and kill 32 people.

In the 1930s we had song popular song lyrics like this-

Ink -A Dink -Doo, A dink -a dee, A dink -a doo.
Oh, what a tune for croon -ing
Ink -A Dink -Doo, A dink a dee, A dink -a doo,
It's got the whole world spoon -ing.
Es -ki -mo bells up in Ice -land, Are ring -ing,
They've made their own Par -a -dise Land, Sing -ing
Ink -A Dink -Doo, A dink -a dee, A dink -a doo,
Simp -ly means Ink -A dink -A dee A dink -a doo.
By Jimmy Durante 1933

Now kids get song lyrics like this-

“Bust a Glock; devils get shot. . . . when God give the word me herd like the buffalo through the neighborhood; watch me blast. . . . I’m killing more crackers than Bosnia-Herzegovina, each and everyday. . . . don’t bust until you see the whites of his eyes, the whites of his skin. . . . Louis Farrakhan . . . Bloods and CRIPS, and little old me, and we all getting ready for the enemy”
Enemy”; Ice Cube, Lethal Injection, 1993, Priority Records, Thorn EMI”

“Little devils don’t go to heaven. . . . the AK forty . . . hold a fifty clip, and I’ll shoot until it’s empty. . . . I’m killing only seven million civilians. . . . one dead devil”

“Freedom Got an AK”; Da Lench Mob, Guerrillas in tha Mist, 1992, Eastwest Records America"

Do you think kids grow up with a normal respect for human life and for guns after they watch and listen to what passes for entertainment today?
Society has turned murder into an entertaining passtime.

My heart goes out to those who perished, and their grieving families. I cannot imagine what the survivors are enduring this very minute.

I'm not wading into the politics of gun control on this thread at this time; however, I will challenge the empty-headed where they stand.

Albatros39a:

"Controlling free speech and opposing viewpoints is a very cowardly tactic too often used by right-wing fascists the world over"

Mmm, too true. Can you tell me when the "right-wing fascists" assumed control of Rabble? At least all but the dumbest of your postings are allowed here, Albatros; try saying anything right-of-center at Rabble & see how long you last.

But thanks for the laugh at your driveby near-slur against Bush re - Katrina. You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but you are entertaining. Occasionally.

mhb23re

"Can you tell me when the "right-wing fascists" assumed control of Rabble?"

The answer was found above at 6:02 PM

Don't believe this was inspired by previous such crimes?

Read this first and then make your comment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18141368/site/newsweek/

Virginia Tech had a bit of a scare earlier this year when an escaped murder suspect was reported to be nearby. Some have suggested that this might be a copycat crime of some sort. I don’t know all the details, but I can tell you I doubt that was the inspiration. I’m not a psychic, but sometimes I get it right. A couple of months ago there was a mass shooting involving 20 students, one of whom died, at a community college in Montreal. [In the Virginia case], the initial news reports said that the killer looked as though he’s Asian or of Asian descent. So was the killer in Montreal. I’ve studied the copycat effect. It’s much more likely to happen when the killers share personal characteristics. Think about the Columbine-style killings that happened in the ‘90s: they all happened in the suburbs; they were all bullied, isolated boys. If this killer turns out to be of Asian descent, it’s highly likely he was inspired by the Montreal mass shooting.

UPDATE:

Authorities are still refusung to release full details ( seems someone's career/ass is in a sling)

1) This is a large campus ( a community) of some 9K on campus and 14K off

2) A campus this size DID have an armed police force

3) This campus force seems to have been neglegent and inept in 1) reading the situation 2) sealing the campus off 3) neutralizing the threat.

4) First response to the incident was to keep it quiet and not get external authorities involved immediately because a "person of onterest was detained sndquestioned"..they thought they had the situation controlled...without a perpetrator in custody.

5) Campus security left the campus open while they knew a gunman was at large.

( My personal impression while I watched new footage was that I have never seen so many fat/old cops hiding behind trees...info from canpus police was sketchy and contradictory and Campus admin. was closed mouthed issuing only obvious info)

some heads should roll!

I understand the families of victims are in mourning and shok....my deepest empathy is whith those who lost a child yesterday.

If I can offer something of value other than emotional support, it would be to get together for a class action suit against this campus and it's "cheif wiggan" police force who were dangerously inept and unqualified for the jresponsibility of protecting 10,000 unarmed kids in a post 9/11 world of terror strikes.

Perhaps if the courts make the inept administration of this school blead profusely from the pocket commensurate with the losses, other campuses and school bords will wise up and provide an environment where kids are as safe as possible from those evil elements who wish to use their dead bodies as "statements".

Something has occurred to me that i havent seen mentioned yet.
The sheer size and geography of a campus such as this makes it impossible for any kind of reasonable security.

For those who think “locking down” a university with some 26,000 students is on-par with securing a high school, this might be a useful read.

Although it is understandable that people are shocked and angry and need someone or something at whom to direct their outrage, Dunphy is also correct in this:

” The rush to blame the school’s administration and police is a reflection of a society that believes any and all misfortune can be averted by the proper application of government will”

School authorities can’t help but be reactive in a horrible event like this, and unless we’re about to place armed guards in all the corridors of our post-secondary schools, I’m struggling to see how it could be avoided. And, too, if School XYZ installs armed cops in tactical uniforms everywhere within plain sight, who’d be comfortable attending such an institution?

mhb23re
at gmail d0t calm

Postscript -

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I was in university 20 years ago, our university police were nicknamed "Campus Comedy Cops", and often ridiculed in their janitor-green uniforms. These weren't exactly Toronto Homicide-quality police officers; they were better suited to tagging and towing illegally parked vehicles on the Ring Road or politely asking dorm residents to keep the party noise down at 2am than to strap on kevlar and assume tactical command of a hostage or gunman situation. I'd imagine this is the same in most universities, and they'd call out the experienced police forces in the event of unusual emergencies.

To be fair, our guys weren't armed, and rightly so: there were no thoughts of crazed gunmen roaming our halls back then. If anybody suggested the 3C's needed firearms, one would first ask "Why in heaven's name", and then wonder how long it'd take before one of them shot off their own foot.

It's terrible how things have changed in 20 years, isn't it?

mhb23re

Albatros39a:

That was a good post at 1:12am; I missed it until now. You are quite correct in the massive change in popular culture.

Thousands of servicemen brought home fully functional rifles and pistols after WWII, so why were there no similar issues 60 years ago when the weapons were easier to obtain (at least legally) than today? Maybe there were crazed killings and the media hushed it up, but I somehow doubt it.

Guns are simply tools, but today's culture idolizes and reveres them more than 60 years ago. That's why I started teaching my kids about gun safety with air rifles when they were 8 & 10, and will move them up to actual firearms when they're ready. The more they understand the seriousness of a firearm (despite the fact that it IS only a tool) and the huge responsibility they accept every time they pick one up, the less mystique firearms will hold for them. Or so I hope.

I have always wondered why seeing some actor/actress smoking in a movie or TV show will lead all young people to smoke, but watching violent videos, movies and listening to violent songs will have no effect on them. I think the wrong thing has been banned.
Another question? How many spouses, kids, girlfriends, boyfriends, have been killed by the jealous person jilted, loser in a custody case, etc. But, we have been told for years by the leftists that family doesn't matter, marriage is nothing, do your own thing. Perhaps instead of teaching kids that it is ok to have two mommies/daddys, abstinence is old fashioned, we should start teaching that relationships go bad and how to handle that. We should teach that life is important. Lets pull all rap music from the shelves, ban all violent movies, cancel all rap concerts, boycott all those involved in the above. Most important, we have to teach that the government can't keep you save, you have a responsibility to yourself to be safe. Gun free zones, what a farce. How many of those students had drugs of some kind somewhere, even tho that is wrong. A lot of experts have had to change their ideas after it was announced who the shooter was-not a white male, not a muslim.
Kudos to the students who took action to protect themselves and fellow students-blocking doors for one. But, how many had heard this guy say something, the girl make some remark re dumping him, or other clues that everyone passed off with the It's not my problem. As Peter W says in the Sun today, It will happen again.
Those poor parents and families who still don't know if their child was killed or injured. We should all make sure that our kids have ID on them at all times.

If VT bans guns then the gun ban is the one we should blame i mean if someone had been able to have a gun then there would,nt have been such high a death rate if there had been someone with a gun there for self defense then perhapes the onlyone dead would have been the terrorist with the gun

We seem to be at a crossroads of choice. Complete (attempted) disarming of all citizens, which was the situation at VT, or allowing law-abiding responsible adults to defend themselves and their fellow citizens.
There are no perfect solutions, humans being imperfect. But I would much rather see a headline blaring "2 dead in University shootout" than "32 dead in University massacre".
These are our choices, in a nutshell. Lets make the choice that saves the most innocent lives.

Lots of polls today on gun control. Statements from shocked students and citizens. How can this happen etc. Talk about having armed security guards. Stories of heroics.

It struck me that the common denominator is how ill equipped these young adults are to defend themselves, how powerless they feel. How surreal these horrific situations seem. Thes types of incidents are becoming all too familiar. To stand around in a daze, laugh (nervously) in front of a news camera or call for more gun control is not pro-active.

How about making it mandatory to have self-defense courses in school? Possibly even millitary type training and defense skills. Teach kids and teens how to empower themselves. As sad as it is this type of violence isn't going to end any time soon. Kids are exposed to violence all too often whether it's gang related, domestic, bullies, or maybe even road rage. Possibly the next terrorist attack.

Do we need to teach our youth how to cope and tell them it's ok to fight back? We have fire drills and now lockdown drills. Do we need more? Maybe this should be an initiative similar to teaching first aid, CPR and defensive driving skills to the public at large.

For the record, I'm not suggesting a mandatory period of millitary service, maybe just make it
available, socially acceptable?

It has been suggested the same guy may have made bomb threats weeks earlier. So what good would banning guns do if he made a bomb instead?

mhb- we're the same with our kids. I was worried about denying my son's natural curiosity and chose to educate instead. I'd rather have him curious with us than sneaking around with a friend.

Hopefully a few headscarf-loving commie professors got picked off.