I always thought that going into the leadership race that the Liberal's were generally to left for someone like Ignatieff, and many were somewhat concerned about Bob Rae's sellibility in Ontario for example. I think Dion spends to much time sounding like he is lecturing people, and telling us about how we should do things that he for the most part has know real knowledge on. (telling people not to go for the easy money in the oil fields) Although I am perfectly fine with his leadership because there is none!

Yippee, bigger question is why 40% of Ontario will still vote Liberal. WTF?

Meter readers everywhere will take great offence to this post. What did they do to deserve such wrath. I can't even think of a suitable replacemtn that wouldn't be torn up over being compared to that putz.

Kate, you said it all !!

No spin, no slant, no propaganda.

Right to the point, tell it like it is.

I have waited all my life to hear/read from some jurno, any jurno, who would speak the truth on Canadian politics. In 40 years nothing from the TO Star, nothing from the Van Dusens of the PPG, nothing from Mansbridge.

It took an ordinary person from small town Sask to show them the way. Voted #1 blog in Canada !!

The important thing here is that Kate is not doing it for fame or glory or $$. She is revealing the folly of Canadian MSM political reporting because it is the correct thing to do. She is not alone. The media likes to think the Kates are just the "fringe". Go ahead. Keep on believing your own skewed polls too. Correcting them only when they have to, like now.

Dion was elected leader of the LPC by the latte/basket-weaving crowd. Not for real environmental concerns but for the Suzuki type of fanaticism. How could they make such a mistake ?? Simple. They do not have a clue. Why not ?? Because they have been sheltered from the way Canadians really feel by the Boags, Tabers, O'Rileys and Galloyways of the world. Also kept in the dark by some wako profs and our public school "system". IMO. Perhaps the liberal delegates were also tired of the Maurice Strongs and Demarais' pulling the strings.

Weak Leaders make for weak nations!

Yep ..... amend that to Liberal/Socialist leadership ( oxymoron) leads to weak nations.
Witness:
Canada
Britain
Most of Europe
Every third world toilet you can name.

He's just not getting it done .....

nice to see Citoyen Dion's popularity in the tank. Sadly - Alberta ended up with the same end state - a third choice lightweight.

Alberta's new premier sure doesn't strike me as having any deep thoughts, and worse, clings to nepotism like a dog to a bone.

Albertans have not had a 'conservative' government for many years - and now we have this baby kissing back slapper for the same reason the Liberals are stuck with their new mutt....

Yuk Yuk Yuk! :0)

And this is surprising how? I thought it was almost a given that after the last election, the next leader of the Lieberals would be a sacrificial lamb, a Kim Campbell so to speak. So far M Dion has lived up to his expectations or lack there of.

*
Did everybody miss this? Dion was elected by a
politically correct stunt...

-- MONTREAL (CP) -- It seemed a harmless gesture to
reward the lowliest candidate for a gallant campaign.
It may have changed the course of the Liberal
leadership race, handing the crown to Stephane Dion.

*

I talked with an Italian today - who explained why The Italians all vote Liberal. Because Trudeau opened the immigration floodgates - while Diefenbaker had kept them closed.

The fact that Trudeau did it only to set up a voting block for the Liberals - is irrelevant to these voters. The fact that Trudeau's Charter has nothing to do with human rights and freedoms (which we had before) but with dividing Canada up into two antagonistic Blocs (the ROC and Quebec) and the ROC further into isolate ethnic groups - these facts are not part of their mindset.

They only know that the Liberals are the Party of Immigrants. And since Canada is a nation of Immigrants; and Canada is multicultural and keeps the immigrants defined by their origin, rather than defined as Canadians. So this definition locks them into being part of the Liberal family. They aren't Canadian; they are Italian - and the Liberals are about Original Immigrants and Multiculturualism.

Harper is taking the view that we are all Canadian. Never mind where our grandparents came from - we and our children are here now, and must build a country together. The Liberals take the view that we are instead 'children of our origins'.

But, building a nation by enclosing people into their ethnic origins requires a higher level - above the diverse and adversarial multicultural groups. That's the government, which emerges as an elitist bureaucracy that makes all the decisions. And bribes the ethnic groups. Such a structure is undemocratic and a haven for corruption. - ergo - the Liberal party.

However, cutting this link between the immigrants and the Liberal Party will be difficult, because we have set up, with our Charter, a deliberate agenda of refusing to allow us all to be just Canadians. Instead, our agenda has been to bond us to our immigrant origins. That splinters the population into, as I said, adversarial groups. Ripe for the political picking.

As for Dion - he's an academic in the humanities and social sciences - an area noted for its irrelevance and cloud dwellers. He is not a leader, not someone who has to choose between difficult roads, but someone who considers that his words and views are, by definition, already chosen, already superior to everyone else - whom he treats as his students.

And, someone who operates strictly in the cocooned world of the seminar room - filled only with unaccountable utopian ideas, a complete indifference to pragmatics and the real world.

Never mind Dion. The hard task will be to unite us all as Canadians and demolish multiculturalism.

Well said ET! Just look at how the Liberal's carefully designed the placement of immigrants on the West Coast, to get a strong hold in the Vancouver area. The party that was in charge of when your family was allowed into Canada will for ever hold the faithful vote. So sad, but so true.

ET:
I believe you were the one that addressed my comments on the other thread with regards to immigrants voting liberal. Thanks for this one as it explains in more detail something that I wished to project but am not articulate enough to do so.

Sadly ET has it oh so correct,
Many of the countries that we accept immigrants from today have political systems where you vote for who's in charge today or you disappear.... Or, you vote for who your spiritual leaders tell you to vote for... Or, you vote for who was in power when you got here in hopes that they don't change the rules and stop more of your family or friends from coming here. I've been saying this for years.

Trudeao set this up to seperate Canada into blocks and pit Canadian against Canadian in the form of French against English, Easterner against Westerner, Atlantic Canada isolated and dependant on Ottawa, immigrant against indigonus, and then Quebec gets everything including a clause in the immigration laws requiring 25% of immigrants be fluent in french but no such clause for english...Canada's 2 official languages.

Living in Vancouver I encounter people daily who can speak neither.

getting a bit afield, I recall an MP for the Alliance in Manitoba who called "a spade a spade" and pointed out that there are more foriegn Chinese or otherwise students attending BC university's then actual "Canadian" Students... he was simply stating a fact but was crucified in the press and media as a racist for not being politically correct about it.

Political correctness has gone so far astray We now have laws that don't allow the simple definition of White/Caucasian, Chinese, Philapino Black, Indian, Hispanic, Native, etc, or any other ethnic reference when asking for public assistance to track down criminals...

Regardless, Dion was doomed from the start and let's hope he never sees real power as the leader of our country... If he does it could creat future rifts and sew the seeds of a seperatist party to form in the West with Manitoba to BC packing it in to split from the rest of Canada... A bit of a stretch but I think one more Quebec leader in Ottawa in the next 10 years and it'll push Alberta and BC out of the union.

Sadly ET has it oh so correct,
Many of the countries that we accept immigrants from today have political systems where you vote for who's in charge today or you disappear.... Or, you vote for who your spiritual leaders tell you to vote for... Or, you vote for who was in power when you got here in hopes that they don't change the rules and stop more of your family or friends from coming here. I've been saying this for years.

Trudeao set this up to seperate Canada into blocks and pit Canadian against Canadian in the form of French against English, Easterner against Westerner, Atlantic Canada isolated and dependant on Ottawa, immigrant against indigonus, and then Quebec gets everything including a clause in the immigration laws requiring 25% of immigrants be fluent in french but no such clause for english...

Last I checked, Canada has 2 official languages. Living in Vancouver I encounter people daily who can speak neither.

I know I'm starting to get a bit far afield, but political correctness from the Left and acidemics has gone so far astray We now have laws that don't allow the simple definition of White/Caucasian, Chinese, Philapino Black, Indian, Hispanic, Native, etc, or any other ethnic reference when asking for public assistance to track down criminals...

Regardless,and back on topic...

Dion was doomed from the start and let's hope he never sees real power as the leader of our country... If he does it could create future rifts and sew the seeds of a seperatist party to form in the West from Manitoba to BC. I think we'd have a better chance alone then Querbec ever had of packing it in to split from the rest of Canada... A bit of a stretch, but IMO I think one more Quebec leader in Ottawa in the next 10 years and it'll push Alberta and BC out of the union and Sask and Man would probably openly opt to join them.

Kate, mostly true. We can't forget the huge ethnic blocks that were supporting Kennedy. They really could only go to Dion. Rae and to a lesser degree, Ignatieff, were too pro-Israel, too pro-War-On-Terrorism for their liking. Yet, they and their supporters hated one another too much to compromise.

Even my 80 year old, dyed-in-the-wool-Liberal Grandma, told me after Easter dinner that her party made a bad choice by picking Stephane Dion. This was after she actually said something positive about Stephen Harper being at Vimy Ridge. She's one of those in Ontario who recognize that Stephen Harper is the better leader, but she's still going to vote Liberal.

If we can believe the poll Kate links to, then Ontario is the last LPC problem within the Canadian electorate. From the point of view of the early Reformers, it has been a long wait since the mid 1980's. It would certainly be premature to count upon a CPC victory if an election were held today but I think the CPC would increase its seat count in the Canadian Parliament rather than decrease or hold the count constant. The 40% Ontario support for the LPC is troubling but the 22% Ontario choice for Dion as PM compared to the 36% Ontario support for Harper as PM tells a bigger story.

During a campaign, the electorate gets to get a good look at the leaders. Unless Mr. Dion has been hiding something over the last few months, I suspect the Ontario LPC support would move down from the 40% support in the direction of the 22% for Dion. I do not think it will stay the same. It may not move all the way to the 22% but a move toward 30% may be enough to generate a CPC majority. Alternative scenario: it moves to the 22% while the Dion support plummets further into the upper teens.

Caveat: polls change almost as fast as the wind. The only poll that really counts is the one on election day. However, it has really not looked this bad to be a LPC supporter for quite some time in Canadian politics. The only surprises for me are: why did it take so long and why is the LPC support still as high as it is?

" ..Among Green Party supporters — wait for it — slightly more chose Harper as best PM over their own new leader, Elizabeth May.

As for Dion, the SES survey indicates the former environment minister and the Liberals’ great white hope for the green vote is all but lost in the electoral wilderness." Greg Weston.

"electorial wilderness" Huh ?? Whatever, Greg. You just do not get it, do ya ?

The handful of Suzuki type fanatics will keep voting so-called "green".

Patrick Moore holds the 'high-ground' when it comes to environmental initiatives that make sense and make a difference. Clean air, clean water. NOT Mo's carbon credit scam.

Well that was just unfair!

Anyone remember Paul Wells gushing prior to the convention that Dion was the drop dead choice of media smart guys? Like Paul Wells? :)

Agree with Kate that the Liberals elected Dion via a procedural anomaly (aka "doing the Clark"), not some Machivellian plan to recapture Quebec

As a Con, notwithstanding his Ontario history, Rae scared the hell out of me because of his Clintonesque speaking style appealing to Canada's vast shallow community.

The Libranos aren't used to having their hand out of the till . . . er . . .off the the tiller. When will the cracks start to appear?

In the context of all the talk about the environment that Dion seems to get excited about, we could say that this poll is ..., er,... a breath of fresh air.

tom ,
See " Social Justice " , it's one of the " pillows " of his policy platform . BTW ..... he's not weak , he just projects weakness .....kinda like that episode of the Simpsons where Lisa exudes the " nerd pheromone " .

Well said Kate.

And well said ET.

I couldn't have said all that's been said better, however I do think it will come back to how shallow, or how little actual thought most people put into casting a ballot. It never ceases to amaze me the reasons or lack of them many people vote for.

Ron said: "Perhaps the liberal delegates were also tired of the Maurice Strongs and Demarais' pulling the strings."

The delegates may have felt that way, but they were mistaken. Dion is a Chretienite through and through. Chretien has the biggest links with Power Corp (contemporary version of family compact) and thus Maurice Strong (former CEO of Power Corp).

I for one am not at all surprised by his performance, both as politician and in polling. I was in shock when he was made LPC leader, I thought, how could they have been that stupid.

My theory is similar to those above. Dion got the ethnic vote, through the Great Interrupter, Gerard Kennedy (red, red, Liberal). Jonathan Kay said as much in an article recently; he is now being sued for defammation over this, so we will see if this true.

Bottom line, Dion has been an accident waiting to happen since day one. Once Kennedy dropped off the ballot, given the animosity in the Ignatieff (the true outsider) and Rae (another Power Corp insider) camps, the dye was cast for Dion leadership.

The Canadian electorate still haven't decided what they really think of Dion, because they are unengaged; they don't look closely until writ dropped and usually after debates (Unlike the political junkees who populate this blog).

Dion is already polling, on leadership, at half the LPC support. If true, then half of people intending to vote Liberal think Harper is a better PM, assuming all who vote NDP think Layton best leader (not a given I concede).

Wait until Cdn public gets good look at this guy. No wonder Harper and CPC rubbing their hands in anticipation of majority.

Where is Citoyen Dion? Chucker knows. Also, Chuck has posted the "The Varieties of Homo Gritus".

My Own Close Encounter [...]

Afterthought. Since that day, I often chuckle privately when people ask, "Where's Dion?" For example, when many Canadians wondered where Mr. Dion is, given his noticeable abscence from the Vimy Memorial ceremonies. At least, he could be there not as a potential Prime Minister, but as a grateful citizen of France. Not me. I don't wonder. I just look up in the sky and I know where he is. I know.
http://chuckercanuck.blogspot.com/

...-

More: Here's Citoyen Dion. The Mole has posted him, at lib.ca.ca, along with Citoyen's statement re the Vimy ceremony. To get to it, click on the Mole's dark, dank, damp pic of M. Dion (if you deign to go there). Pathetic/pathetique, aka pitoyable.

Borat Dion

like Joe Clark , John Turner, Kim Campbell and Paul Martin he will be tossed to the wastebin of history. but this time no one there to hand him a senate seat.

a bespeckled man with a shorn sheep do, confused and bewildered. almost makes me shed a tear -NOT

I was in Winnipeg about three years ago on business, out for Christmas dinner with the local group and my boss from Toronto.

This was just as Chretien was imploding before our eyes and Mr. Dithers was taking the helm.

We were booked for dinner (I wish I could remember the restaurant...there are so many fabulous places to eat in the Peg...old heritage home near downtown, but safe neighbourhood), and there is security out front of this place like nobody's business. Why? It turns out that ole Bill "lecture circuit" Clinton is dining in the same place.

Well, you should have heard my normally sane table-mates going on and on about how much they admired Slick Willy. Not only that, but I remember getting into a brief discussion with Mr. TO and one of the locals, who were raving about Dithers as though he was the second coming. I had to simply bite my tongue as they trotted out the usual "Harper scares me", b.s.

Anyway, Clinton and his boys march past, and everyone jumps up for the standing ovation, and we get the Hollywood smile and the wave. I could barely keep my appetizer down.

This whole discussion of Dion just makes me ask what I always ask...Do we never learn? Do folks in Ontario, especially, have to keep getting their pockets picked? How could anyone, anywhere give these clowns another look? As much as Taliban Jack and the NDP and the Greeners have no credibility, at least they actually believe in some of what they preach. The Libs can't honestly look themselves in the mirror and believe a single thing they themselves say. Can they?

They have become so rabid, of late, with undisguised hatred (and fear of their imminent demise), that every single policy position taken by the CPC, from jay-walking to Afghanistan must be met with complete juvenile obstruction. And they denounce everything as though "the sky is falling".

If someone can tell me why, otherwise sensible people, with similar backgrounds to mine, can purposefully or by ommission, confuse right vs wrong, good vs evil, night vs. day etc, etc, I would love to hear the answer.

Nail+hammer=Kate
Well done

Does anyone here have any idea of what Harper's numbers were like in, say, July 2002 or so, four months after taking the helm of the Alliance Party (if anyone even bothered to ask the same question)? I would guess (I may be wrong) that they would have been even lower than Dion's current numbers, due to the fact that nobody but the politically engaged had really heard anything much about him. The same is now true of Dion, despite hilarious claims that the Liberal leadership race was a CBC (taxpayer) paid advertising blitz for the party. Most people don't find it that gripping, seriously.

--------

As an aside, I assume that anyone dumbfounded by voter behaviour in Ontario isn't writing from Alberta.

“To realize this ambitious vision, we need to use the talents of all Canadians,” Mr. Dion told the packed audience of Liberal supporters.” We need to invest in our economic competitiveness. We need to invest in stronger, safer cities. And we need to offer Canadians a government they can trust.”

This is from the speech Dion made in Toronto on April 4th. History has shown the Liberals have not done any of the things he rattled on about. I am just as dismayed as many of you how can people continually support this crap.

How can anyone believe after seeing the most corrupt government in our history under the Cretin and the continuing scandals of the RCMP with more to come that anyone could ever trust the Lieberals.

I bet anything that once the cameras were turned off Dion and his cohorts all turned to each other and said "Trust, as if that would ever happen!" and dissolved in gales of laughter.

I still think that Gerard Kennedy is 'conservative mole of the year'!

I mean, how stupid could the guy be?
A 'fence post' as the Crooked Liberal Party of 3 Big Cities leader.

Why doesn't Nanos try to explain to the rest of us why so many people want to vote liberal in this country despite Dion? Now that is an analysis that I would like to read and would learn from.

" As an aside, I assume that anyone dumbfounded by voter behaviour in Ontario isn't writing from Alberta. "
Explain , please ..... signed dumbfounded in Alberta..

Did any of the MSM follow up on how the leaders of the opposition spent Easter Monday as opposed to attending at Vimy?

Great comments ET, as usual, and okanagan. I've run into this same phenomenon myself wrt Liberal voters. I asked a colleague of mine and his wife flat out why they voted Liberal. They're both well educated, nice people from the Maritimes, working in Alberta realizing that right now Nova Scotia is an economic dead end for them. Their answer was jaw-dropping in its mindlessness. "We vote Liberal because our families have always voted Liberal." That was it -- gap-toothed hillbillies from the Ozarks wouldn't have put it any differently. And they wouldn't budge, no reasons, no second thoughts, nothing. It's a religion -- absolutely nothing to do with behaviour of the leaders, policy choices, impact on the country -- nothing. I suspect that if someone won the Liberal leadership, advocating exactly the same policies as Stephen Harper, that segment of the population that votes Liberal would endorse him and his policies whole-heartedly because he'd be labelled "Liberal" and wouldn't give it a second thought.

Its a BEAR MARKET!!!!!

Think of the Liberal brand as if it were a stock. The peak of the Liberal brand occurred in 2000 when commentator's were forcasting Liberal domination till the end of time. Nothing could dent Liberal popularity. That said, there is always a point at which nothing can drive a stratospheric stock higher, leaving down as the only path for movement. On cue, as sentiment was ripe for a shift, Shawinigate occurred. A quick short covering rally as all hopes for recovery shift to Martin, then a powerful second stage downtrend resumes with Martins dithering, Sponsorship, a split in the Liberal party and a minority. Unable to fight the forces of a primary bear market, the Liberal party gaps down sharply on heavy selling with Dion, Liberal defections and leaks. Fear now grips and panicky chaos reigns within the Liberal party.

We have the third and final stage of the Liberal bear market still ahead. There will be a point in the future where voters abandon even minuscule hopes for a Liberal recovery. At that giveup point, multiculturalism will have gone the way of Communism and the Liberal brand will be quaint memory in Ontario.

Frankly, I would not worry about Ontario voters or multiculturalism. Everybody is selling those ideas and they will continue to sell for some time. Roughly speaking, bear markets correct 1/3 to 2/3's of a previous advance. I would mark the Liberalism advance from Trudeau in 1968, or 32 years to the top in 2000. I think we can expect a decline in all things Liberal for between 10 and 15 years, or for another 3 years at a minimum. Given the strength of the previous advance, this nasty decline could go much much further, 13 more years from here if it retraces 2/3rds of the advance. More if it is a Nortel version of a political implosion from irrational heights

When I read the headline, Dion in the Dumps, I wondered if he'd taken to going to a psychiatrist or if someone had mangaged to find out what anti-depressant drugs he's taking.

If I was him, I'd be pretty darned depressed.

His becoming leader had everything to do with the LPC parachuting into the leadership race Ignatieff (give me a break: absolutely no political experience and he's going to be a Party Leader?) and Rae (also, give me a break; he can go from a failed NDP Premier of Ontario to being the Liberal Party leader, when he's never even been a member of the Liberal Party?).

Pride goeth before a fall, and how the mighty Ignatieff and Rae are fallen. I'm sure that Rae, with the full backing of Power Corp (his brother works for Paul Desmarais as a head honcho at PC), thought for sure he'd win the race. I've never seen a politician so visibly steamed as Bob Rae after he lost the leadership vote. His facial expression and body language shouted "How the H*LL did this happen?"

So, pride and lack of collegiality delivered little Dion to the LPC leadership. He's a leader they deserve: a party in disarray with no policies to speak of, no principles, and, now, no money and no hand in the public till.

'Looks good on them.

As to okanagan's lament, "If someone can tell me why, otherwise sensible people...can purposefully or by ommission, confuse right vs wrong, good vs evil, night vs. day etc, etc, I would love to hear the answer," there are some good answers above (ET's discussion with an Italian-Canadian voter, for instance).

But this incomprehensible phenomenon also has to do with our education system, which has taught only liberal/left/revisionist Canadian history for years, our MSM which heaps praise and support on l/Liberals and scorn on c/Conservatives, and a lamentable lack of morals and principles on the part of many in society today: "So what if the Liberals stole a few million dollar$? Every political party cheats" is the belief of a lot of Canadians. The phenomenom is called moral relativism, and it's what rushes in to fill a moral/ethical/religious vacuum in society.

Add to this the fact that only about 20% of Canadians regularly attend a church or synagogue, (the percentage of Muslims regularly attending a mosque would be much higher than 20%--but many of them are immigrants) and you've got a partial answer. (It would be foolhardy to think that the precipitous decline in attendance at religious institutions in the past 40 years is insignificant in so many Canadians' not being able to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil, night and day.)

I would like to point out that Mr Harper is one minority election win away from being a political "disaster" himself. He won't be sticking around as leader if he doesn't deliver a majority government.

Paul Martin was a weak, permanently red-faced leader and he managed to win a minority government in 2004.

Never underestimate the Liebrano party and its ability to whitewash the facts and brainwash Canadians.

Always assume we're behind.

Like fine wine this blog just gets better with age.(Of course the winemiestress is a no nonsense
gatekeeper;and pretty astute to boot)
Good post ET and yeah I think you're definitely onto a concept there DrD as I've got a few of those in my family too.
I think you could dress a pig up in just about anything and a good number of folks would still kiss it!

cheers simon

crabgrass is referring to the "one party state of Alberta", therefore we can't lecture Ontario about voting Liberal.

What he doesn't understand is the Alberta P.C's get the job done, so they get re-elected.

Unlike Ontario where they change governments like changing yer shorts. Oh yeah, and the "crooked lottery vendors PROVE corner store beer/wine vending won't work". Thanks for that premier D(ork).G.

crabgrass - your comparison is invalid. The Alliance Party has never, ever, headed the Canadian government, while the Liberal Party has been the 'de facto' leader for a century. Try comparing the leader of the old Alliance/Reform party with the NDP or Green Party. And the NDP, after all, has and does lead provincial legislatures.

Furthermore, Dion's name wasn't confined to the 'politically engaged'. He was, after all, the Minister of the Environment; he was even voted as an environmental 'fossil' for his poor performance in that department; and after all, he was publicly touted as the developer of the Clarity Act - ignoring that it was taken straight from the words of Harper and Manning.

Dion has low ratings, not because he's unknown as you are claiming, but because he IS known -and viewed as lacking leadership qualities of rigour, decisiveness, vision, pragmatics, humility, clarity and honesty. Oh, and he can't speak English. And he whines a lot.

DrD - that's exactly it. People vote Liberal because their families 'have always voted Liberal'. It's brand loyalty - not for the content. Absolutely not for the content. Just the name. Why?

Because Canada has really been only a one-party nation. We, as a nation, have not been in an economic and political situation where we have had to make hard, really hard decisions. We began by being politically encased in the British Empire and Commonwealth. We made no decisions on our own.

And - Economically, we are completely nestled and protected within the cocoon of the US economy. More than 85% of our exports go to that one country- an ecnomic phenomenon unheard of anywhere else in the world.

Intellectually, we rely on US innovations, and their industrial dev'ts - which we then set up as franchises in Canada. We don't fund innovation, we don't take the huge financial and intellectual risks of developing new technologies and goods. We don't promote and enable Canadians to invest in new technology or industries. We rely on the US and foreign investment to do that for us.

Therefore, politically, we have not set ourselves up to examine our activities. If we required such examination, we'd have a genuine two-party system. Instead, we've had a one-party system that promotes stability, no change, 'more of the same'.

When we began to mature, instead of developing a political system capable of analytic decisions and risk-taking, we set up a system that prevented both. How?

By dividing the population into sub-groups, defining these subgroups as directly linked to their origins rather than their current reality of living in Canada. This has prevented the development of a Canadian identity that unites us. Instead -as noted, we have 'little Italy' in our cities, 'little India', little Portugal', little Jamaica. Nowhere is there any attempt to unite us; instead, we focus on our differences.

As I said - such a structure of 'aggregate parts' requires a 'metalevel', a hierarchical level of governance that oversees all these subgroups. That became the role of the Liberal gov't, its bureaucracies, its funding, its rhetoric.

So, people who live in subgroups which are linked to their origin have political power and security, they feel, via and through, an enormous bureaucracy and distant Ottawa government. This is the Liberal image of Canada. Again, this is quite clear in the Charter.

That's why people vote Liberal. It is the party of a one-party nation, a nation that has rarely had to make any decisions on its own, that rejects risk-taking, rejects self-governance and rule - ie, preferring to follow the UN.

Canada is now maturing, but, moving us out of these isolate 'no-change' groups, out of these isolated ethnic dependent groups, and into a sense that all of us are Canadian and must debate, analyze and make decisions...that's not an easy task.

It's easier to sit back and not participate in the world except as a smug and self-righteous observer - and we are very good at that. The last few years have seen Canada slowly maturing, slowly starting to move out of its dependencies. But, it's going to take a lot of talking and education....

"We vote Liberal because our families have always voted Liberal." That was it -- gap-toothed hillbillies from the Ozarks wouldn't have put it any differently. And they wouldn't budge, no reasons, no second thoughts, nothing.

I'm always pondering that phenomena down here - substitute Libs for Dems, we've got our own yellow dog Democrats here. Failure to evolve, a mommy complex, nostalgia, stuck on stupid? If the US, Canada and Europe had anything but an outright lefty media would/could this comfort zone or feeling of safe conforming identity have disappeared? Would a media/educational system that really made us think, well, make us think?

That was it -- gap-toothed hillbillies from the Ozarks wouldn't have put it any differently. And they wouldn't budge, no reasons, no second thoughts, nothing. It's a religion.....and not a very good one. And, here's an irony, those vilified, you know, closed minded conservative Christian right wingers are actually the naysayers to this Orwellian scenario. They stand on the sidelines of this sheeple feely driven cultural garbage with the appropriate scepticism. I sit in traffic everyday with Florida rednecks with Support Our Troops decals on their trucks, skeptics by nature, they prove commonsense trumps our elite lefties anyday.

I often think of the contrast like this:

Liberal supporters want "stuff"
- free ride (social programs)
- payoffs (money in envelopes, nepotism)
- others accomplishments (envious of the USA)
- other people's money (transfer payments)
- other people to do the work (USA)

Conservative supporters want to be left alone
- make own decisions (small government)
- money in their wallets (low taxes)
- walk the streets unharmed (punishment for crime)
- will do their own work, even if it's messy (WWI, WW2, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.)
- choices (freedom baby)

Dippers want fairytales
- Nice (we're nice, why isn't everyone else)
- Kyoto (money is no object if it feels right)
- Socialism (why can't we all just share...it looks good on paper)
- Rehabilitation (there are no bad people, just bad circumstances)
- Equality of outcome (it's a win-win for everybody!)

The lengths that folks will go to appear "nice" when it is going to get you killed. Like that guy in Alaska who made friends with the grizzly bears, until they ate him.

Remember, Paul Martin ran a campaign 15 months ago that was the worst since Turner in 84, and won 103 seats.

Never, ever underestimate the stupidity of Torontonians, or as I now call us, Detroiters of the future.

batb, you've hit the nail on the head. And--I'm going to go out on a limb here--I wonder why this kind of answer--the moral, connected to religious belief kind--which very succinctly and clearly explains a lot of "imponderables" is so often ignored by so many otherwise logical folks at sda. Like those who always vote Liberal, just because, I think there's a real blind spot here.

And, if there's a blind spot at sda, why wouldn't there be one in the ROC, which, per capita, I'd hazard, has fewer thoughtful, knowledgeable, intelligent types than those who post here?

Secularism and moral relativism have wreaked enormous havoc on every society where they've held sway: think the communist regimes of the 20th century, which trampled truth and freedom and murdered millions of their own citizens. (Think the Catholic Church and JP2, which had everything to do with the triumph of freedom over tyranny in Poland and the eventual, internal collapse of the Communist Empire--evil, I think--in Europe.)

In the public square, Canada's now a thoroughly secular, morally relativist society. A direct result of this is that political correctness flourishes. (Political correctness would have been laughed out of town by our grandparents--on the outskirts!) batb's altogether correct about both the vacuum that's been created and how it's being filled. As G. K. Chesterton wrote, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."

Discounting the trashing of the Judeo-Christian heritage as a major factor in the infantile, ME-ME-ME society which we now have the misfortune to inhabit, is, IMO, neither a wise nor useful thing to do.

Ignoring or discounting our country's moral capital--capital based on Judeo-Christian principles--which we've pretty well spent, is not a sound foundation on which to try and rebuild a just and prosperous Canada. Among other smart moves, I believe that the Conservatives understand this, which is, to me, very heartening.

Kate: That is a truly terrific piece of writing.

I especially enjoyed:
"Dion lacks the temperament of men who seek to be the pointy end of the spear. Indeed, he finds spears to be distastefully American, their use unsustainable. Spears frighten, and are best regulated by the UN (other nation's leaders)".

Full poetic compression: The Great Steyn himself would envy that line.

Thanks, penny. I've just read your post. You understand. Yeah!

You guys just don't get it, do you? The very simple reason why Conservative popularity is not going up is because most people do not think like you. They do not accept conservative ideology. You can blame it on immigration, the MSM, the education system, whatever...the majority of people in Canada are not conservative but small "l" liberals. That's why Harper is acting and spending like a Liberal. He thinks it will get him a majority.

The bad news for real conservatives is that if he wants to keep a majority he will have to continue acting like a Liberal.

The biggest wimp since Joe Clark.

"The bad news for real conservatives is that if he wants to keep a majority he will have to continue acting like a Liberal."
Unforyunately,Lberia is speaking the truth. The only way we small "c" conservatives can really win is to kill off the likes of lberia.And oh. Go ahead and sue me twit

Thanks, lookout: "batb's altogether correct about both the vacuum that's been created and how it's being filled. As G. K. Chesterton wrote, 'If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything,'" and penny: "And, here's an irony, those vilified, you know, closed minded conservative Christian right wingers are actually the naysayers to this Orwellian scenario."

One of the things that depresses me most about any possible turnaround in the direction of our country is the blind spot that you point out--and that I see even, as you say, amongst conservative, concerned, and otherwise thoughtful and intelligent people, the blind spot of refusing to give religion its deserved place in the public square vis a vis the history of justice, freedom, and democracy.

To not acknowledge the very real debt our free and democratic society owes to religious values is to severely limit the way forward.

We talk about the West losing the WOT through a lack of will, which is something the extremist Islamofascists have no shortage of.

So, where does the will come from, to turn things around in Canada, from a Liberal hegemony to at least a CPC majority governemnt in the foreseeable future? It's sure not going to come simply from a group of people who won't bow to the politically correct dogma on the left. We need more than that.

You just don't get it, do you, Iberia? The very simple reason why Liberal popularity is not going up is because most people do not think like you. They do not accept socialist ideology. You can blame it on Harper, the environment, the education system, whatever...the majority of people in Canada are not socialist but small "l" liberals and conservatives. That's why Harper is acting and spending like a classical liberal. He is one and he knows it will get him a majority, now that the LPC has moved left of the NDP (and perhaps Trotsky).

There, Iberia, I changed a few words to more accurately reflect what is really going on, rather than your fantasy.

In fact, the Conservatives are going up; the most Lib favourable poll, SES, has CPC up 3%. Conservatives do get it - clean air vrs Kyoto, leadership vrs platitudes, tough decisions vrs whining about being bullied. All of that translates into Harper leadership higher than Dion and Layton combined.

In fact SES says only hope Dion is if Harper too hard on him, so Cdns feel sorry for Dionsky. Ain't gonna happen.

Other polls have Harper in majority territory, before election called, before they realize what a buffoon Dionsky, your leader, is.

Somebody doesn't get it all right; that would be you, Iberia. Try not to cry, now.

ET's comments about dependence are actually just a reflection of Canada's lack of self-confidence. In an earlier thread about Vimy, I noted that Canada put up one of the largest armed forces on Earth in both World Wars to defeat Germany and her allies.

And this has caused the reactionaries (now left-wingers) in this country to constantly oppose any political change and new ideas as dangerous American imports.

Think of William Lyon Mackenzie and the ill-fated Liberty Island, free trade, and now of course tax cuts or senate reform. And yet change has always come to Canada eventually. But it would come faster if left-wing Canadians were less insular, a little more worldly, and above all - a little more self-confidence.

Stephen Harper said in a speech once: "A predecessor of mine once compared Canada's relationship to the US as that of a mouse and an elephant - I always that sold us a little short."

The point is - lefties have been selling Canada short for years as some Trudope-topia. That's fine if you're Luxembourg or Lichtenstein, but Canada's been traditionally more than some kind of banana republic...

Sorry, I mentioned Vimy to make the point that our history precludes us from being some kind of banana republic...

I don't think it would have mattered who the liberals would have picked for a leader. The party has been co-opted since Trudeau and all it did was create an organization more and more beholden to the interest groups that it depends on to keep power. Now those interest groups want more control and have made a mockery of the leadership process by corraling potential leadership candidates and giving them the starchamber treatment until they promise to carry forward their agenda, be it Kyoto, Sharia law, or the next flavour of the moment vicitms group.
They had a chance to change by moving to a one member one vote process, but missed out because nobody wanted a boring convention where you only talked about and devised policy to let Canadians know where you stand.
Frankly it won't matter because the liberals got lost long ago.

Let's just sum it up, Dion is the Liberal version of a sacrificial 'scape' goat.

Dion lacks the temperament of men who seek to be the pointy end of the spear.

Imagery like that gets your bubbas all worked up, Kate. They're thinking of manly leaders and spears and you holding tight to the shaft.

Let me just say...ew. Clean it up, gal.

lberia writes: "You guys just don't get it, do you? The very simple reason why Conservative popularity is not going up is because most people do not think like you. They do not accept conservative ideology."

Ideology has NOTHING to do with it.

According to the best available data brown people and women and homosexuals have *enormous* ***FINANCIAL**** incentives (and other incentives) to keep electing governments that pander to greedy professional victim groups.

They don't "accept conservative ideology" because they are greedy and want cash and "special status" and alimony and "two-tier" justice and job quotas handed to them. That's greed, not ideology.

The Liberal Party of Canada is the party of choice for such greedy people. It is an organization comprised largely of brown people, women, and homosexuals (also lawyers, public servants, pensioners, and have-not-province-dwellers) who implicitly collude against straight white males to seize their property and jobs and freedoms and children through a new racket known as "democracy".

I say "new" because universal sufferage has only really been around in the last century. I think we can all agree that democracy, as currently constituted, is fatally flawed.

Fortunately the cure is simple: a steep poll tax. It would enhance democracy and cultivate a new culture of accountability.

Say no to Liberal greed, say yes to a poll tax!

You all sound like you're scared. Rightly so. Dion might not need a "pointy spear" and he's doing fine without you'all's pointy heads. Dion's "spear" is intelligence, history, love for Canada and stamina. You'all should try some. Get rid of the Helmet-head mentality of your Lame Leader and think for yourselves. If that's possible, since you'all are still harking back to Grade School...
Also, if it came down to one Canadian=one vote, you'all'd be sucking the bottom teats, and would have to fight your own for that.

You all sound like you're scared. Rightly so. Dion might not need a "pointy spear" and he's doing fine without you'all's pointy heads. Dion's "spear" is intelligence, history, love for Canada and stamina. You'all should try some. Get rid of the Helmet-head mentality of your Lame Leader and think for yourselves. If that's possible, since you'all are still harking back to Grade School...
Also, if it came down to one Canadian=one vote, you'all'd be sucking the bottom teats, and would have to fight your own for that.

Okanagan wrote: "I had to simply bite my tongue as they trotted out the usual "Harper scares me", b.s."

Therein lies a big part of our problem. Too many people, despite being disgusted with unwarranted and inaccurate comments, fail to challenge them at their source.

I don't know how many times I've made myself at least briefly unpopular at social gatherings when someone else starts beaking off about the US, the Conservatives or western culture in general.

Invariably it's based on how they 'feel' and not what they know. One suggestion however: follow up your argument with a couple of solid references they can check out later. Once they see that you consistently argue from a position of strength, they'll stop their bs n' bluster.

Don't let them get away with their ill-informed crap!

Now let us see,

Those running for the leadership of LPC were as follows:
Ignatiev, an opportunistic sophist, export/import to possibly save LPC as a superior kind of crowd.
Rae, a socialist that thinks, to make everybody even you steel from the rich and give to the poor except, rich socialists they get to keep their riches, after all they are entitled to them.
Kennedy, don’t know a thing about him.
Dion a French citizen light weight air head that pretends to be something other than a guy that should be buried in books for no other reason then it seems to become him.

"I don't know how many times I've made myself at least briefly unpopular at social gatherings when someone else starts beaking off about the US, the Conservatives or western culture in general."

I agree Randy. Sometimes a gentle confrontation of facts is all that is needed to shut down the regurgitated rhetoric. And I'm no ET!
Stand up for yourself Conservatives.

Crabgrass is it safe to assume you are from Ontario and therefore do not understand Alberta politics? Albertians vote for "git 'er done" populists not ineffectual elitiist. Look at the history. Due to a bit of gerrymandering Alberta began with a liberal government. It was determined to be too elitist and was changed for the populist UFA. UFA was suckerpunched with a nonexistant sex scandle at the same time as Bible Bill was using the new media to talk to the people. He was elected because he spoke to the people. Ernest Manning followed Bible Bill and served the people maintaining the ideal of getting the job done while being one with the common man. Peter Louheed was see as a git it done kinda premier with a bit of panache that went with the new found pride of the oil boom. Don Getty was ineffectual and replaced by Ralf. Ralf was a populist and would change his mind in a second if he knew the people didn't like his policy. Now there is Ed. As soon as there is a git 'er done poplulist slightly to the right of the PC's the PC's will be delegated to the dust bin of history. Federally Albertians feel the same way. They chafe under elitist rulers like Trudeau and Mulroney but would not buy the ineffectual p'tite gar crap nor the windmill prioritizer. If Harper were to begin to be ineffectual or elitist Alberta would start another party. Look at its history.

Kate,

well said.

Crabgrass,
I think Dion is a great Leader and you are absolutely right to keep him as your leader. In fact I suggest make him Leader for life. The guy is brilliant and is the best thing for the Liberal party and for Canada. I think that every real conservative would have to agree that Dion is a fantastic leader for the Liberal Party.
I quite frankly think that all us conservative should be gratefull to have him a the Liberal leader and for anyone to suggest otherwise is well....just darn shamefull. Vive le Citizen Dion!!

Nice vernacular JSPS...where are you from...Bill Clinton's hometown?

Never mind the helmet head mentality,you need to dispence with the airhead mentality.

This is a waste of time but well JS...one can at least hope !

Dion's loyalty to Canada and the LPC lies in his undying hopes that if he pulls this sham off then he can enter puberty.

'Till then he's stuck in the soprano section of the choir.

But don't hold your breath 'cause I think he's already been gelded so he's not likely to mount the mare too soon.

I hope Mr.Dion is the Liberal leader for the next 10 years.
that would be so excellent....

Oh I forgot Simon, you folk only take BJ's from people you don't know, so you can truthfully say, "I never had sex with that woman!" and mean it. Well, in all likelyhood, Kate Kan set you up with some people who Kan Kneel and Knot tell. What a lame response.
You guys are going down, in more than once sense of the phrase.

Here's a tip: finish Grade School, eh, then start sucking or blowing as is your wont.

Albertaman, your right on the money.
Crabgrass, you must be so proud of your wonderfull leader. I envy you when your leader whines, "Dis is not fair!" or complains, "You're such a bully!" The pride must overwhelm you when your wonderful leader refuses to take part in the Vimy Ridge ceremony. He wasn't asked so of course it was perfectly acceptable for him to pout. Very leaderlike quality that...pouting!

Kate's point about weak leaders make weak nations is an excellent one. Mark Steyn made an observation in America Alone that bears emphasis. During the cold war the US was the strength that kept us free from Communism with final victory by Reagan with support from a strong leader in Maggie Thatcher while Europe always voted by the millions for their communist parties. Still do.

Continued socialist leaders there including Britain have weakened the fibers of their society to what we see today. The removal of responsiblity from the individual, as ET has pointed out so many times, to the state has proved devastating.

The same thing is happening here with socialist weaklings like McGuinty, Layton, Martin/Dion and Miller in Toronto. Their whole focus is punishing the productive and rewarding the indolent. Being at the sharp end of the spear makes them uncomfortable as fighting back against evil is not right, let's talk. Open sores like Caledonia are allowed to fester as confrontation is not their style.

IMHO I don't think the decline of religion has anything to do with our decline. Its state socialism that has removed our sense of justice and fairness.

A thousand cuts by governments, schools, political correctness, special rights and faceless bureaucracies have weakened the family, our social bedrock.

A forthright leader like Harper, who actually has an agenda, that will bring back honesty and cut out the rot of the Liberals panics the leftists as their gravy train may be derailed.

Thanks David Hand(job) for saying that weak leaders make weak countries, and for reminding passing by readers that Harper actually does have an agenda...

Harper, bringing back Honesty by telling Canadians he wouldn't touch income trusts thereby selling out millions of dollars to foreign investors?

Don't you or Harper dare bring up religion and women in the same breath as you adore Harper and his divorced wife. Let's just stick to the facts, Friday.

Harper lied to the people of Canada about Income Trusts. Harper paved the way for foreign investors to takeover Canadian interests. You might be so blind as to believe it was all for Bush and the Americans, but Harper hid from you how in debt to China America is.
When all is said and done, it will be clear that Harper and his followers sold Canada down the river, thinking it was going to warmonger monkeys, but no! it's going way off-shore. That will be your nightmare, and you deserve to have it every night. You earned it.
Harper is selling Canada to anyone who he thinks will make him King of KKKanada, and he might as well be in Charlie's Chocolate Factory for all Harper knows. Harper is forthright. Hey Kid, wanna Kum and get a Kandy?

"... designed to place Stéphane Dion's Liberal party under a cloud of suspicion,

Ad$cam Martin, Jr., + Davi$ Herle, + Earn$cliffe Group, + Ad$cam Dion; all linked $au$age$ = Liberal Ad$cam fraud.

Did someone mention that Citoyen Dion reminds them of human jinx Joe Bfstplk*? Stephane Who? is now followed by his own bleak rain cloud: Ad$cam Dion. (*H/T Al Capp)
...-

Ottawa to announce probe of past polling

OTTAWA–The Conservative government will launch an investigation today into alleged Liberal-era irregularities in taxpayer-funded opinion polling.

Public Works Minister Michael Fortier will launch the probe at a Parliament Hill news conference this morning, casting it as the fulfilment of another election campaign commitment from 2006, according to government sources.

But the announcement appears designed to place Stéphane Dion's Liberal party under a cloud of suspicion, on what could be the eve of a federal election campaign. [...]

But rather than a wide-ranging look into the relationship between the federal government and polling companies, sources suggest it will have a narrow focus on the relationship between the Liberals and Earnscliffe Strategy Group, an Ottawa-based government relations and communications firm that had close links to former prime minister Paul Martin when he was finance minister.

David Herle, a former senior Earnscliffe partner, was among Martin's top political advisers and ran the Liberal party's election campaigns. ...-

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/201743

Kate,

This was excellent. As opined above - no spin, no slant, no propaganda. And deadly accurate. Very nicely done.

David Hand, you say, "IMHO I don't think the decline of religion has anything to do with our decline. Its state socialism that has removed our sense of justice and fairness."

Connect the dots, please.

What do you notice about countries that have endorsed state socialism? That religion has either declined on its own--meaning by people's free choice and their own decision--or that it has been outlawed, and religious men and women have been executed and parishioners Gulaged or imprisoned.

Please give factual proof of your statement that "the decline of religion has [nothing]to do with our decline..." This seems to be a common misconception in Canada, though I have never seen a credible defence of it: It's just a vague notion in most people's minds.

I fear that this is the Achilles heel, this blind pride and, forgive me, arrogance, that runs through the fabric of our society. We are perhaps the first generation, or two, in the West that has jettisoned religion and religious sensibilities ("thou shalt love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbour as yourself") and take a look at the results.

Though our wealth seems to have increased, our care and concern for the poor and destitute has not. In Canada, alone, only 25% of our population volunteers their time to help others less fortunate than they are (in Britain, the figure is 34% and in the U.S., 45%).

In a recent study out of Queens University, a full 65% of charitable donations in Canada, including those given to both secular and religioius institutions, are given by "religious" Canadians, meaning those who attend a religious institution on a regular basis. These are also the people who tend to include volunteerism in their busy lives. (Example: I'm giving blood today after work. I'm one of about only 4% of Canadians who take the time to do this, though our need for plasma and other blood by-products increase every year...)

As the numbers of those who attend church/synagogue/mosque decline, often because of death, the givings to these institutions and, therefore, their ability to reach out to the destitute, declines.

People who think that governments can pick up the slack or do a better job of charitable works--as in socialism and Big Brother Knows Best: Father Knows Best was a far better scenario, in fact--just have to look at the mess Russia became under Communism, or the unmanageable shambles most European countries have become. They have been quick to decide upon anti-church and anti-clericalism and--what do you know?--their governments are doing a lamentable job of caring for the downtrodden, let alone their citizenry who are able to 'take care of themselves.'

Here is an excerpt from Alexander Solzhenitsyn's Harvard Address in 1978 as a defence of my position:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/solzhenitsyn/harvard1978.html

"How has this unfavorable relation of forces come about? How did the West decline from its triumphal march to its present sickness? Have there been fatal turns and losses of direction in its development? It does not seem so. The West kept advancing socially in accordance with its proclaimed intentions, with the help of brilliant technological progress. And all of a sudden it found itself in its present state of weakness.

"This means that the mistake must be at the root, at the very basis of human thinking in the past centuries. I refer to the prevailing Western view of the world which was first born during the Renaissance and found its political expression from the period of the Enlightenment. It became the basis for government and social science and could be defined as rationalistic humanism or humanistic autonomy: the proclaimed and enforced autonomy of man from any higher force above him. It could also be called anthropocentricity, with man seen as the center of everything that exists.

"The turn introduced by the Renaissance evidently was inevitable historically. The Middle Ages had come to a natural end by exhaustion, becoming an intolerable despotic repression of man's physical nature in favor of the spiritual one. Then, however, we turned our backs upon the Spirit and embraced all that is material with excessive and unwarranted zeal. This new way of thinking, which had imposed on us its guidance, did not admit the existence of intrinsic evil in man nor did it see any higher task than the attainment of happiness on earth. It based modern Western civilization on the dangerous trend to worship man and his material needs. Everything beyond physical well-being and accumulation of material goods, all other human requirements and characteristics of a subtler and higher nature, were left outside the area of attention of state and social systems, as if human life did not have any superior sense. That provided access for evil, of which in our days there is a free and constant flow. Merely freedom does not in the least solve all the problems of human life and it even adds a number of new ones.

"However, in early democracies, as in American democracy at the time of its birth, all individual human rights were granted because man is God's creature. That is, freedom was given to the individual conditionally, in the assumption of his constant religious responsibility. Such was the heritage of the preceding thousand years. Two hundred or even fifty years ago, it would have seemed quite impossible, in America, that an individual could be granted boundless freedom simply for the satisfaction of his instincts or whims. Subsequently, however, all such limitations were discarded everywhere in the West; a total liberation occurred from the moral heritage of Christian centuries with their great reserves of mercy and sacrifice. State systems were becoming increasingly and totally materialistic. The West ended up by truly enforcing human rights, sometimes even excessively, but man's sense of responsibility to God and society grew dimmer and dimmer. In the past decades, the legalistically selfish aspect of Western approach and thinking has reached its final dimension and the world wound up in a harsh spiritual crisis and a political impasse. All the glorified technological achievements of Progress, including the conquest of outer space, do not redeem the Twentieth century's moral poverty which no one could imagine even as late as in the Nineteenth Century..."

Too bad intelligent political discussion has to be interrupted by the foulness of jsps. The beauty of blogging as opposed to tv or radio is that we can scroll past the garbage.'Just Say Poopy Stuff' is the reason I avoid Libblogs. They cannot have intelligent discussion without resorting to the anal and banal.As Kate as well described here the reason Dion is so low in polls is because of Dion...that has Libbers in a bad state of mind.If there are any libblogs worth perusing please let me know.

It appears that I may have a higher opinion of Dion than some other commenters here. We can probably all agree that it will be easier to assess the relative popularity of the candidates with the benefit of hindsight following the inevitable "Citoyen Dion" versus "Beelzebubba" clash.

Great post, batb. Thanks.

David Hand, I agree that your statement--one short sentence which obliterates the important role of the Judeo-Christian tradition and religion in society--is unfortunate. It's also unsubstantiated. batb and I have taken it upon ourselves to actually explain our opinions and back them up with facts. Your statement is a mere assertion. I don't believe that's helpful.

As batb mentioned, the studies--I believe one of the latest was done at Queens: I'll check it out--have conclusively proven, in opposition to the mean-spirited and often bigoted popular misconception, that the most civic minded and economically generous members of society are those who go to church and synagogue. That's a fact, David Hand, which you must take into account--and then circumvent, with evidence--if you're going to continue to hold your most tenuous opinion. I think if you're frank, you'll have to admit that socialism goes hand in hand with the marginalization of religion and the subsequent coarsening of society.

I'm also intrigued by the idea that simply mentioning politely some facts from the C(c)onservative point of view at a social gathering is likely to garner a few converts. In my dreams! I find that the lefties of my acquaintance--some are even close friends--seem to have a distaste for facts that challenge their ideology, which approaches Dracula's aversion to garlic and crosses. Their "tolerant, open" minds just don't seem to have any room for ideas and facts they don't like. In fact, once facts become a part of the discussion, because they can so rarely hold their own--their repertoire tends to consist mainly of canned, past-due-date, MSM misconceptions--I find one of their favourite tactics is to shut down the discussion altogether. E.g., When I began to detail the ghastly and violent means used to eliminate unborn human beings--medical fact--my feminist, pacifist leaning, "can't bear the suffering of kittens" friend declared the discussion over. Period. No more of that. It's information I don't like and refuse to listen to or countenance. And that's only one topic of many which those on the left feel entitled to censor. In order to keep the peace, I often keep my opinions to myself. This is called self-censorship and I think a lot of us find ouselves doing that far more often than making converts.

JSPS's infantile and dirty put-downs are most definitely unwelcome. sda certainly doesn't need this person's pollution. JSPS, please crawl back under your rock and stay there.

JSPS - Harper actually does have an agenda...

He actually presented his agenda to the electorate.

JSPS - Harper, bringing back Honesty by telling Canadians he wouldn't touch income trusts thereby selling out millions of dollars to foreign investors?

Harper is damned for this....

JSPS - Don't you or Harper dare bring up religion and women in the same breath as you adore Harper and his divorced wife.

An unsurprisingly stupid (insensitive for the feely) comment that has nothing to do with anything.

JSPS - Harper lied to the people of Canada about Income Trusts.

And damned for that....

JSPS - Harper paved the way for foreign investors to takeover Canadian interests. You might be so blind as to believe it was all for Bush and the Americans, but Harper hid from you how in debt to China America is.

What?

JSPS - When all is said and done, it will be clear that Harper and his followers sold Canada down the river, thinking it was going to warmonger monkeys, but no! it's going way off-shore. That will be your nightmare, and you deserve to have it every night. You earned it.
Harper is selling Canada to anyone who he thinks will make him King of KKKanada, and he might as well be in Charlie's Chocolate Factory for all Harper knows. Harper is forthright. Hey Kid, wanna Kum and get a Kandy?

What?

"Quebecers, we are very sophisticated," he said. "When we vote federally, we don't vote for the same reasons as we do provincially."

Federal Liberals need not worry about ADQ rise in Quebec: Dion ...-

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2007/04/11/qc-diononadq.html

Citoyen Dion is a citizen of three/trois countries: La France, Quebec, Canada. He is a "sophisticated" sophist.

Citoyen Dion is not a citizen of Vimy Memorial, France. The memorial and its proximity was declared a part of Canada in 1922 by France. Citizen Dion did not attend the Vimy ceremony even though it was held in Canada.

The Liberal Party of Canada is a shameful excuse for a political party.

A bas Dion. Down with Dion. ...-

I think I just heard David Hand say, "Speak to the hand..." Hmmm....I just did. So where'd he go?

Kate,
What brilliant positioning! Obviously PMSH's follow on will be our own PMKM! Just between us, where do you get the energy? The wisdom, obviously a gift from God!
Paul J Johnson

It's good to hear from types like JSPS. It confirms CPC on right track. It shows Harper's opponents are so frustrated with being outflanked, they are resorting to more and more shrill ad hominem arguments.

Regarding Income trusts. Most trusts are real estate investment trusts (REITs), which are unaffected by decision. Business trusts that replace corporate structure are another matter. They are usually not good businesses; because of the nature of inter vivos trusts (earnings taxed at highest personal marginal rates), they must flow out all of their income to unitholders (not good for expansion, research and development).

I agree energy trusts got caught up in this thing and that's too bad, and maybe this can be tweeked. They are high risk instruments and should never be used as core income generating holdings.

As usual Liberals misrepresent the "promise" Harper made - he said he wouldn't let seniors be hurt. Trusts, excepting the business ones described above, do not save tax, they defer it. That's what was taken away.

Anyway, even if we defer to Liberal claim of promise broken (after all they have broken so many promises they are experts), Liberals should ask themselves honestly, would they have done anything differently?

Sometimes governments must make tough decisions, even reverse promises, and yes "be damned" for it. So be it; if that's the best you can do JSPS, they I suggest you stick to your profanity, which you are quite good at.

JSPS, after your infantile alteration of my name I thought, what a dolt and bailed from your post so didn't read what you had to say, wasn't interested.

Been around the block and lookout. Thanks for your posts. I know from studies that those who attend religious services are more generous as are Conservatives. Jefferson and the designers of the American Constitution were wise in ensuring the separation of church and state. Western civilization grew strong as dogmatic religion waned, Quebec is a recent example as the control of the Catholic church weakened as Quebecers insisted on taking charge of their own businesses and society.

You guys are far sharper than I and I can only speak for myself. My view of religion is power and control and belief in something that for me just doesn't exist. Never could figure out why the Greek, Roman, Egyptian or Aztec gods were myths but the Jewish, Christian or Hindu gods weren't. The teachings of Jesus, just finished the Jesus Family Tomb which proved he did exist, are wonderful and a guiding light for our social interaction. I don't have to belong to an organized religion to follow them.

Very few of my friends and family are religious yet we drive for Cancer, are Cub and Scout leaders, honest, volunteer, run social organizations and give to charities. We are ET's middle class and believe in the rights of the individual. Is Islam, where everything is shut down and the light goes out, an answer, it is a religion?

I agree the focus on materialism and wealth is not helping our society but the greater threat is the socialist nanny state with our schools pounding away with their leftist agenda that has lead to our disastrous birth rate and the greed of the "Me" generation. When we have everything we want where do we go from here? Is this why we always cheer on the underdog? I think when people see criminals walk away after endless months of trials, the corruption of Adscam or CEO's of public companies being fired with huge settlements they just give up. FIMO.

Canada in its short history is one of the good guys, quietly and largely unappreciated in meeting its wordly commitments. Contrary to what the socialists think I believe Harper will strengthen those commitments both there and at home with a renewed focus on the family. Hopefully if he gets a majority he can cut through the socialist spiderwebs and bind us all as Canadians first.

This is particularly for David Hand. (Note that one can reference an opinion with a bit of effort.)

"The Religion, Volunteering, and Charitable Giving Report [one may Google it] examines the role of religious or faith communities in regards to two critically important activities: volunteering and charitable giving.

"The analysis was built upon two very different sources of information. The first is the 1997 National Survey of Giving, Volunteering, and Participating (NSGVP). It
was carried out by Statistics Canada, which polled over 18,000 Canadians over the age of 15. The NSGVP is a joint project of Volunteer Canada, the Canadian Centre for Philanthropy, Canadian Heritage, Statistics Canada, Health Canada, Human Resources Development Canada, and the Kahanoff Foundation's Nonprofit Sector Research
Initiative . . .

[NB: This survey was not conducted by Christian groups.]

"Though representing only 14 per cent of the Canadian population over the age of 15, religiously active volunteers make up 43 per cent of volunteers in Canada and account for a startling 50 per cent of all hours volunteered.

"The 32 per cent of Canadians who are religiously active contribute 65 per cent of direct charitable donations. As one might expect, this group is responsible for 86 per cent of donations to religious bodies; yet even in the secular sector, the religiously active provide 42 per cent of the $2.1 billion raised by direct giving . . .

"Conclusion

"The impact of faith communities on our daily lives is phenomenal. Our daughters and sons may be happy participants in local guide or scout troops thanks to meeting spaces provided by a community church. We may have benefited from the counselling provided by our local pastor or been fed or sheltered during a crisis. A variety of agencies, programs and activities that we have come to depend on, perhaps exist in part due to monies, time or space provided by people active in our local churches, synagogues and places of worship. Yet, incredibly this is often taken for granted or has somehow fallen into our collective subconscious. If there is one undeniable impact that this study has, it has been an awakening to an incredibly valuable existing resource.

[Janice Stein, are you listening?]

"It is disconcerting to note the findings of Reginald Bibby, the acknowledged expert in the field, who cites surveys indicating that weekly attendance to religious services in Canada fell from 53 per cent in 1957 to 23 per cent in 1990. Attendance rates continued to fall in the 1990s but at a slower rate than before. Because there appears to be a correlation between religious activity and volunteering and charitable giving, there is perhaps an alarming possibility that this may lead to a decrease in volunteering and giving in Canada.

"We would do well then to pay more attention to the enormous contribution already made
by the faith community, to tap into its great potential and to share in the concern about its diminishing role in society."

Now, contrast this to Mr. Hand’s offhand comment earlier in this thread, “IMHO I don't think the decline of religion has anything to do with our decline . . . "

Hmm . . .

David Hand, I'm just reading your gracious post, which I didn't see before posting my latest.

I'll get back to you after I've read your latest.

Cheers.

During the 3rd quarter of 2005, an SES poll revealed that roughly 14% of Canadians thought Stephen Harper would make the best Prime Minister of the lot. That's 3% worse than the current numbers for Stephane Dion. Jeez. I'm sure that somehow this comparison is "invalid", but I thought I'd offer it anyway. I'm surprised nobody here had any knowledge of it.

David Hand, thank you for your gracious and reasonable post. And now, I'm not at all sure I'm any sharper than you!

I can only agree with just about everything you've said. We seem to be on the same page about a lot of really important things. It seems that we have some disagreement about foundations and motivations. Honestly, the decline of religion--with the consequent decline in altruism--is intimately connected to the rise of socialism, which is a SECULAR creed, and the nanny state, which, obviously, we both abhor.

As an observant Christian, I can only speak from my experience that the profound teachings of Jesus, which you seem to appreciate, come from a man--not a myth--who actually lived and died. By my baptism and by the Holy Spirit, a "being" I have personally experienced, I can witness to the reality of the living Christ. I don't expect you to "agree" with me, but that's my answer, which I think you might understand, to your quite legitimate question.

Islam's a real problem. Religion? I think so. But one that's both very political and has malign, imperialistic designs on the rest of us, Christians included. BTW, Christians live in dhimmitude in the Islamic countries where there still are any Christians, e.g., those who haven't been killed, enslaved, or moved away.

Like you, I look forward to a Conservative majority so that Canada might regain some of the integrity and freedom the parasitic Liberals have sucked out of us.

apples to oranges Crabgrass. Harper IS PM and is getting approval ratings which have been increasing steadily since he has been in the various positions. Dion has been in the public eye for many years...need I continue my point?

vf: Apples to Oranges? Shirley to God.

You do need to continue your point, or at least make it more convincingly.

Dion has NOT been in the public eye for many years. What percent of Canadians do you think could right now name the environment minister? Try to actually give a reasonable estimate.

How about minister of intergovernmental affairs?

who's Shirley?? surely you meant surely...Dion is flopping. Point made.

I keep telling my children life isn't fair.

Imagine a grown up not knowing as much as my children,

Oh, come on, vf. You didn't answer my question.

Shirley to God is one of the jokes that I repeat too often, usually to my kids. "Shirley to God... (radio static noise) ...Shirley to God (radio static noise)..Come in, God...(radio static again)...." They don't think I'm all that funny either.

In this case, it was supposed to be like another bad comparison (though not intended to signal agreement with you). Apples to Oranges, Shirley to God... I can't stop myself.

I would bet that right now, only a very small percentage of Canadians could name the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, and a few more the Environment Minister (because at the moment it is a high profile portfolio). Anyway, my point is that these people do not become household names. Lots of people, believe it or not, are still just becoming aware of Dion (which is why Harper is so frantically busy trying to introduce "Dion according to Harper", instead of just behaving like a Prime Minister). That is my humble opinion.

If you thought that Dion were doing really well, would you chime in here and say so? (I'd advise against it).

I can understand your advice, Crabgrass, but I think anyone who thinks Dion is doing a good job would be so intellectually challenged, he or she would probably be incapable of either reading this thread or expressing his/her opinion in writing.

Hisda heri kjsa anhsop. Mmm begj.

So, do you think he's doing a good job, Crabgrass? I'm not sure I get your meaning.

David Hand, thanks for your thoughtful reply to my asking you to defend your view that the decline of religion has nothing to do with the rise of the nanny state in Canada.

I applaud your family's and your contributions to your community and in no way think that volunteerism and "kind acts" are exclusive to those who attend religious institutions--and thank God, that's true. But I am very grateful to lookout for providing the "hard facts" regarding the connection between--and the rather astonishing generosity, one would have to admit, of--those with religious faith and civic participation.

That's merely the point I was trying to make: How is it that Canada, mainly under PET and succeeding Liberal governments, aided and abetted in their secular agendas by the NDP and the secular MSM, became a nanny state so quickly after WWII? Precisely because there weren't enough people to see through their veiled socialist policies in order to mount a defence, largely because they'd neglected the faith of their fathers and mothers. Essentially, people of faith are able to discern the difference between genuine rights and freedoms and the manufactured and trumped up Charter-of-Rights kind--and to want to defend the genuine item.

Unfortunately, there are many in the Church, too often our leaders, who seem to have compromised their ability to discern freedom from slavery and are as culpable as the majority of secular humanists in our society of allowing an "all-knowing," "all-seeing," "all-compassionate" nanny state to flourish.

I sincerely appreciate your response, David Hand, and hope that you can see why I am encouraging you to connect the dots between the decline of religion in Canadian society (another PET accomplishment) and our acquiescence in the past 40 years to the socialist vision of the "good" nanny state.

In closing, look at Poland, a profoundly Catholic/Christian country that defeated Communism, with the help, clearly, of Poland's equally profoundly devout Catholic Pope. (RIP John Paul the Great.) The Poles rejected the Communistic nanny state at great cost and sacrifice and were also profoundly instrumental in bringing down the Berlin Wall.

It's hard to conceive of Canadians rising up, as the Polish workers did, to defeat a ruthless, life-sucking, and tyrranical Communist dictatorship--mainly because we just don't have the passionate faith of the Poles, much to our discredit, IMO.

In the end, it's our will to pursue freedom and justice that will either save us or condemn us to servitude. Religious faith has always tended towards freedom and justice (despite serious lapses and atrocities: We're human, after all). Passionate socialism has been responsible for far more deaths, in the 20th century alone (Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin) than any religious war or crusade.

Oops. Didn't mean to be cryptic. I was respondingt to the "anyone who thinks Dion is doing a good job would be so intellectually challenged, he or she would probably be incapable of either reading this thread or expressing his/her opinion in writing" conjecture. I'm not sure how great a job Dion is doing - I haven't been observing that closely. I think we'll know a lot more when the back and forth between Harper and Dion moves closer to centre stage. I'm just saying that it's early for Harper supporters to break out the champagne. That said, if you choose to do so, I'd like some.

Crabgrass, I think it's pretty clear that Dion's a real dud, a dead loss--not a patch on Harper, who'll make mincemeat of him in any debate.

I've not got the champagne out yet for a Conservative majority, but I sure have it out for the most dignified, thoughtful, principled, focused PM we've had in many a long year. If I could, I'd gladly pass you a flute on that one!

(P.S. As a person with long experience working with poor readers and writers, their attempts at writing usually approximate standard English! E.g., They don't write entire gobbledygook. So, if you should try out your experiment again, the words, "I think Dion's doing a good job," might look like this, "i thik dons ding gud jd". Consonants, except for blends and digraphs, are usually there, though they may be reversed. The vowels, especially in multi-syllabic words, are often wrong or disappear; root words with endings are sketchy, and the inclusion of capital letters, articles, and punctuation is iffy. But there ARE patterns: there's method in their mediocrity, one might say! ;-)