These two showed more guts than all our politicos put together. Bravo and kudos for them. Well done.

Svend Robinson wasn't in Lebanon to assist?

"Hawach told the Sunday Telegraph that she and her daughters hid for seven weeks in the homes of “complete strangers” in Lebanon who were sympathetic to her cause."

It's kind of comforting to know that they aren't all savages over there...

Anybody seen the movie,Not With My Daughter?
This has been going on for decades,she's lucky he didn't abduct her too !
Muslims marry women over here, take em back to the "homeland" for a holiday to meet "the family",and they are never seen again !
The Libranos have turned a blind eye to this for decades.........
Religion of Peace...ya right!

And here we go with the demonizing, or dehumanizing, whichever you want to call it.

"It's kind of comforting to know that they aren't all savages over there...'

- Richard Evans

"Muslims marry women over here, take em back to the "homeland" for a holiday to meet "the family",and they are never seen again !"

- sumbuddy

I ll just assume that Richard Evans thinks that all Arabs are savages. Nope, no demonizing there. Its treated as a fact on this board, after all.

But sumbuddy deserves kudos for going above and beyond the call of duty, and declaring that this could only have been done by a muslim. After all, this is what muslims do, right? Religion of peace and all?

I can only imagine his shock when he finds out that Joseph Hawach (note Joseph, not Yusuf) is a CHRISTIAN. A MARONITE CHRISTIAN. Inconvenient fact,eh?

"Canadian authorities confirmed that Mr Hawach, 32, had taken his daughters across the border from Syria into bomb-ravaged Lebanon on July 22 - a day after a Canadian court awarded Mrs Hawach sole custody of her children, and just 10 days after Lebanon and Israel went to war. "

Sole custody means little to no access for the father. No access to his children, and eighteen years of child support and alimony to look forward to. Remind me which side is "savage" again?

"You can't stop, you just can't. I wouldn't want them to think that I gave up. Ever.''

Yeah, I'll bet that's what he was thinking too. Sole custody my ass. Anyway, it's disappointing to see people come to the knee jerk defence of the woman in this case; maybe she is a fit mother, maybe not. Women who have daughters get divorced more often then those with sons.

What we do know is that the Canadian legal system is biased as hell against men and a man just lost access to his kids. A father who was likely denied justice in Canadian courts - as thousand of fathers have been - did everything in his power to remain with his kids. The story here is that the Canadian courts are heavily biased against men.

We need crap holes like Lebanon to remind us how thngs could be if we ever allow militant idealists to seize power.

As much as it pains me to say this, I am in general agreement with the self-righteous troll Jeremiah regarding the expressed attitude towards Muslims in general.

As Christians say, we should hate the sin but love the sinner. Hate the extremism and the hate, but love the individual who rejects it. Trouble is, so few Muslims seem to reject it and it is too easy to paint them all with the same brush.

As the morons on the left use the comments here as more fodder for their cannons, we should try to be more precise with our comments.

I also acknowledge the validity of Bob's perspective, though I have no knowledge of how or if it applies to this case.

We better not get too smug here. We have two very dangerous things at play, Multiculturalism and Charter of Rights to enable "Idealists" to make a heap of trouble in this Democracy.
The conditions are in place for an uprising and those two Bills will win the day for the Idealists
challenges to them.

Jeremiah

You make some good points. To often we are ready blame whole ethnic groups just because of the actions of a few. In this case they even got the wrong ethnic group! On a personal note in the four years I was living in Europe I worked with Muslim (Turks) and got along well with them, and in my travels, the friendliest people I met were Tunisians. Also, thanks for pointing out that Joseph Hawach is of the Christian faith.

As for Bob, I agree that the legal system is biassed against men in most custody cases, I think you are jumping the gun here. Unfortunately, in some cases the men are idiots (or worse) and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near their kids. I don't know enough about the background of this case to comment any further on the issue, but there may be legitimate reasons for awarding sole custody. Maybe someone out has more info they can pass on. Whatever way look at it, she had legal custody, the father took them away (kidnapped them more of less) and refused any legal means for the mother to get them back.

I'm sure we will learn all the facts when the book and/or movie come out

Pay no heed to the mindless troll, Jeremiah, who recently described the Armenian genocide as a "bit of a hardening of attitudes in the early 20th century."

He is a Muslim apologist, who either knows little, or is an outright liar.

"And here we go with the demonizing, or dehumanizing, whichever you want to call it."

Regardless of whether this man's religion was misplaced by a few commentors - Muslims have done an excellent job dehumanizing themselves. But that's to be expected from a people who still cleave to an unreformed and barbaric 7th century ideology, while attempting to foist it on the rest of the world.

Of course there are good people who happen to be Muslim, it's just unfortunate that they aren't quicker to recognize and reject the obviously criminal aspects of their religion and the criminals that it inspires and harbours.

At the same time, it's also to be expected that there is a general barbaric attitude (by western standards) in the ME, sponsored by the prevailing religion, Islam.

I don't think this situation has anything to do with Islam, Muslims etc. and therefore, I think that the comments on Islam are not relevant.

I think we don't know enough of the facts - and custody cases can be acrimonious fabrications. We don't know that the father is unsuitable; and we do know that it's still the case that in the majority of situations, custody is biased against men and automatically goes to the mother.

Frankly, I don't think that we can say anything about the case - other than that we don't know enough of the facts.

You do have to be careful when making any anti-mussie comments. mussies are not always productive but they can be sly. Obfuscation to cover the facts is well developed skill for the members of the religion of peace. Lebanon is a Muslim dominated country with sharia based laws. Because Lebanon is a muslim dominated country the father "owns" the children as chattel. Owning children as chattel is a muslim concept that the Christian father was able to exploit. This could have only happened in a muslim country with an archaic and misogynist sharia based legal system. At the elemental level you and your argument are FOS, but still a good try Jeremiah. You fooled a few people for a short period of time and being an apologist for islam that is likely as good as it is going to get.

As much as we hear about the legal aspects of this issue, which laws may have been broken, and who has rights to the children, whether in Canada, Australia, or in Lebanon, I believe that Ms Hawach’s actions were governed by a more basic and universal rule of nature: Never get between a mother and her young. It's great to hear that Melissa, her daughters, and her father are safe and well. Now, we need to hope and pray that Mr Corrigan and Mr Pemberton will soon be released.

Daisy is correct. I am a muslim apologist. I am also a Christian apologist, and a Hindu apologist, and a Muslim apologist and a Buddhist apologist. It all depends on where the attacks are coming from.

I am prepared to defend Islam from an Anti-Islamic Irwin Daisy, just as I would defend Christianity from a an-Anti Christian Irwin Daisy, because I believe in the equality of human beings, and that regardless of faith, it is every mans duty to treat the other with dignity. The broad generalizations posited here serve no purpose but to validate certain people's prejudices and hatred. After all, sumbuddy's statement essentially reflects what one might treat as fact without bothering to back it up. A Lebanese did something wrong - it must be because he is Arab or Muslim or both. What about other communities? Are these occurences really restricted to one community.

[I concur. I am in fact self-righteous ;)]

Daisy, perhaps I know nothing. But what do you know? Have you ever been to an Islamic state? Do you even have Muslim friends? It is one thing researching something with the goal of learning about it. It is quite another researching something with the sole aim of denigrating it. I may know nothing, but at least I havent wasted my time trying to figure out how much more hatred I can heap towards another group.

Trying to apply a blanket to the muslim world is a bit misguided since the muslim world has always been fractious. Armenia happened, and it did kill millions, and I m not going to defend Turkey or the muslims on that account. However, to make the Armenian genocide out to be an apolitical Islamic jihad is bit of an overstatement. Islam was used to justify it, yes, but that doesnt mean Islam was the cause of it. Now I m sure you ll throw a dozen quotes suggesting otherwise, but you will fail to answer one question - why did they wait 1300 years before attacking the Christian Armenians? Yes it was a "general hardening" of attitudes on a global scale. I daresay neither Turkey nor the Ottoman empire were the begin-all and end-all of Islam.

ET,

I disagree with you when you say that religion is irrelevant. As the earlier commentators suggest, religion was always a big deal with regard to this post. Correct me if I m wrong, but I honestly doubt you would have not referred to his religion if he had in fact been a muslim. In fact I suspect you would have agreed that it is very relevant.

Just read EyesWideShut's comment:

"Lebanon is a Muslim dominated country with sharia based laws. Because Lebanon is a muslim dominated country the father "owns" the children as chattel. Owning children as chattel is a muslim concept that the Christian father was able to exploit. This could have only happened in a muslim country with an archaic and misogynist sharia based legal system. "

Truly awe-inspiring in its ignorance. Lebanon was, until recently, a Christian majority nation, where the Christians were favored by the institutions left behind by the French. The 1982 civil war was in part caused by muslim antipathy towards the priviliged status of Christians in that state. There was some pact signed in 1989 that restructured the political system, but as is obvious these days, it is still quite a mess.

Sharia, as far as I know, has not been implemented in Lebanon. Nor has it had a role to play since the creation of independant Lebanon, so I have absolutely no clue where you ve come up with your assertions from.

But hey, I suppose its so much easier to kill a man who treats his children like chattel, than it is to kill a human being you consider an equal, so well done EyesWideShut. Dehumanizing is a pathetic game.

Dehumanizing? You say it as though it's something new and recently invented by the forces that combat Islam. Dehumanizing is part of Islam. All that are not of Islam, are borderline human or less.

I know some really nice folks that were in the German military, that does not mean that the Nazi's were a force for good. Same deal with Islam. It is the Great Satan, for lack of better words.

Pat

“We’ve still got two guys we need to get out of there,” Engdahl said.

Any word on a change in that status?

Pat

“We’ve still got two guys we need to get out of there,” Engdahl said.

Any word on a change in that status?

Pat

Tell me, Pat, do you bite every dog that bites you?

Islam, like all Abrahamic religions is exclusivist. Exclusivist religions are all about being better than the "other". The Jews are the Chosen people, Christians have believers and non-believers, Islam has faithful and infidels. These concepts of "us" and the "other" automatically dehumanize the other insofar as the "other" is not as inherently good as us, and is therefore, perhaps by default, a second rate human.

That said, the moral thing to do, as Christ taught us, is to afford basic dignity to each and every human being, regardless of how they view us. Self defence is warranted, but demonizing a billion on the basis of the actions of a thousand is incomprehensible.

Satan is probably dancing with glee. If the muslims are doing his bidding on that side, you are doing his bidding on this side.

Jeremiah,

Moral and cultural equivalence is the lie you propogate.

I am against Islam. I recognize Muslims as people and as the first victims of a fraudulent and lethal ideology. I also recognize non-Muslims as a target of hatred, slavery and death commanded in the Quran and by Mohammad.

This murderous contempt for non-Muslims is as much foundational to supremacist and imperialist Islam in Mohammad's time as it is today.

The opposite is true for Christianity, as proven by the NT and Christ's life example. Violence is not foundational to Christianity, despite what some have done in Christ's name.

That is the difference and therefore there is no moral or cultural equality between the two faiths.

There are plenty of comparisons to illustrate this difference, such as Christ's treating of the adultress, compared to Mohammad's stoning of an adultress. Here's another:

"Husband, beat your wives and deny them sex." - Quran 4:34

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself for her." - Ephesians 5:25

'Canadian' Muslim, Imam Handy (on Michael Coren/youtube) just last week admitted on air to not only wanting Canada under Sharia law, but stoning to death for adultery. This law is common to all Muslims, moderate or not, because it is the law in the 'uncreated and perfect' Quran.

Islam is not compatible with the west, our laws, human rights or freedom. That's why I am against it. And therefore against liars like you.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Daisy,

The equality of human beings is what I propagate. Moral and cultural relativism are irrelevant with regard to human equality.

COngratulations on your cognition skills, but even as you recognise non-muslims as a target of hatred, you seem to heap the same upon muslims. If hating other is so bad that you castigate the muslims for it, then why do you adopt it as your default modus operandi.

I said the following earlier:

"It is quite another researching something with the sole aim of denigrating it. I may know nothing, but at least I havent wasted my time trying to figure out how much more hatred I can heap towards another group."

Thank you for proving my point.

I am not defending Islam from the accusations you put forth. I am however defending muslims from the hatred you seek to spread against them.

If Islam is not compatible with the ways of the west - lets just shorten it to Liberal Democracy, then why do you support the war in Iraq? Do you support it so that it may spread our values, or do you support it because you percieve it as a positive step in the direction of annihilating muslims.

Muslims in Canada are generally compatible with Islam. That has been my personal experience, anyway. For every Handy, there are millions of nameless faceless muslims who are quite content with life in Canada.

Daisy, what would Christ preach? That I be ashamed of myself for defending a billion muslims from people like yourself, whose grievances are a result of the action of but a few thousand?

No, I suspect he would admonish you for forgetting that behind those devilish masks you ve painted for muslims, are human beings. The actions of the few have never justified demonizing the many.

Did you read (but more importantly) comprehend anything I wrote?

You are hopeless.