There may be something to this...I really can't picture the pubs flooding with muslims hoisting a pint of "Wee heavy" on Robbie Burns day.

"Shattered unconnected communities in competition with each other but with no common value system or identity, unable to join together to achieve a common goal."

Y'mean like Canada? Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver at loggerheads with each other AND the ROC, with Alberta swinging freely in the breeze somewhere out there in fly-over land.

I'd say we could use another Scottish diaspora. The last one set the stage for Canada and the USA as they were up to about 1950, maybe a couple million pissed off Highlanders flooding in would help sort out some of the more idiotic excesses of Trudeaupia.

Really, though, Phantom, isn't that the future? We're going to see more and more disenchanged native Europeans fleeing to North America and the great land Down Under in the next few decades. For us, this is undoubtedly a good thing. We need immigrants of their calibre. But all we're doing is setting up the world as more of an us vs. them. When we empty out Europe--or I should say, when the left appeasers force an emptying of Europe--it really portends the end of civilization as we know it.

I think Canada will be all right. We have the U.S. on our border and they won't let us get too out of hand. But will the world? And if the world goes to pot, that's not a good thing. It just makes me sad.

I see a violent future for the UK.

I really don't see the possibility or intelligence of trying to let these people fit in with us. For 30 years the stinking lieberals have brought hordes of them in because it has kept the thieves in power, and that is all a lieberal understands, theft of money is very hard where the lieberals are right now. But trying to integrate people that stone women to death, chop off heads, burn women, cover them from head to toe, hide in their own mosques and plot,etc., will never work. Yes let more europeans come here, they work, they assimilate, and best of all they don't all in lock step just vote for the money theives/lieberals.

The thing that one still has to consider, in this apocalyptic perspective, is that Islam, as it now is, is unable to support an industrial economy and therefore, an industrial size population. It can only operate in a pre-industrial peasant agricultural economy. That cannot support populations in the millions.

So, if you envisage Europe moving into an Islamic lifestyle, then, you must also somehow envisage a massive depopulation. OR, a Europe kept afloat by subsidization from the non-Islamic world. OR, a radical modernization of Islam.

The only reason current Muslims are able to exist within Europe is because they are subsidized by a currently existing industrial economy which they did not and are not developing. If you remove the ability to reason, invent and think, from the society (and Islam does exactly that), then, you can't operate an industrial economy.

You can only 'Be Industrial' because your industrial economy is operated by some other Western power. As it is in Saudi Arabia, where the technology and work of extracting oil is carried out by foreigners - because the Islamic employees have no engineering or science.

So, I suggest that Islam will itself have to radically transform its ideology, accept reason, accept the actions of the individual and accept science. After all, the West did just that in its period of Reformation.

ET--in other words, Islam is the answer to Global warming?

His one statement "The Liberal elites are the real enemy,..." says it all!

Yes, ET, but it won't, because the theocratic nature of Islam nearly guarantees that power is delivered into the hands of a few sociopathic mullahs.

Islam is capable of operating an industrial society in some capacity. example Iran!!
And they are capable of learning and stealing our technology for their own purposes. Example: nuclear weapons! They can do this with agriculture as well.

I don't think massive depopulation of Europe when they become islamic is a certainty!!

Afterall if we're measuring intelligence, Who is currently conquering who! At last count I think we're losing and when we lose Europe it might finally wake up a couple people!

My in-laws are English. Every once in a while I can’t help myself and I mention some sort of Islamic nonsense that has happened in England. They don’t say much – they generally believe in the cult of multiculturalism – but I can see the pain in their eyes.

They’re going to England this summer, partly because they’re getting up there and they don’t have many opportunities left, but also partly I believe to see it as it is – as they remember it - before it becomes an Islamic republic.

"And I have decided that I can't like Islam, like many like-minded people I see it as an unmitigated threat to the values Europe should hold dear."

Me too. I've had enough.

Why should the people of a "host" country try so hard to make people feel welcome? The onus should have been on them in the first place to integrate. Religion is fine with me, but it doesn't trump the loyalty you have to your host country.

Phantom & Sheila-
It would indeed be great if we experienced an influx of these people but, what with the immigration laws being what they are these days, these people don't have much of a chance. Unless of course they first moved to an Islamic Nation, suffered religious persecution or something, and then claimed refugee status.

It's not just the Muslims and their backwards world view. It's got a lot to do with the widespread belief in a utopian society that socialists continue to extol. It does not exist it never will and it is a fundamentally destructive force.
Go back to yesterday's discussion of Relativism!

In reply to George - hah, hah. No, Islam isn't the answer to global warming, because, since it operates within a non-industrial perspective, then, it can't support an industrial size population. The global population would have to be reduced by at least 50%, from six to three billion and less. How?

That deals with jared's comment that he doesn't think that massive depopulation is a certainty. What's your evidence? Mine is that a non-industrial economy has a threshold of population (called the carrying capacity) which it can support. Islam is a non-industrial ideology; it can only 'act' industrial when that industrialism is imported from the west.

In answer to shaken - I disagree. Most certainly, Islam will try to retain its original rules, which developed within a desert nomadic economy and are only suitable for that. But, since it can't support even the size of its own modern populations without industrialism, then, it can't succeed.

In answer to jared - the Islamic perspective rejects reason, thought, innovation. There hasn't been a scientific innovation within its ranks since it began, not a single Nobel prize, no inventions, innovations. As I'm sure you've heard, the number of western books translated into arabic is minimal. Patents? In 20 years, the nine leading Arab economies registered only 370 patents. In total. S. Korea produced 20,000 patents.

As I said, the Muslims can currently USE the technology invented by the West, but do not innovate or invent technology. In order to do that, they must, as I said, reform their ideology, to promote reason, questions, analysis and science. Currently, they reject all of this, which reduces them to being parasites on the West.

As I'm sure you are also aware, criticism of Islam is forbidden; that makes reform very difficult. However, I see no option other than reform.

This has absolutely nothing to do with measuring intelligence and I don't know how you could come to such an inane conclusion.

At the moment, Europe is not being conquered; it is most certainly uncertain how to deal with an immigrant population who reject their new country and want to return to a medieval era - but, Europe is starting to 'wake up' and reject such a future.

The immigration of westerners was reduced to a trickle 30 years ago.I was lucky to be offered a job which was a requirement before coming to Canada and I think i moved up the points chart because it was in Winnipeg

Personally my fear is that the pendulum will swing from the current nice-nice multi-culti crapola to some kind of ethnic cleansing nightmare right across Europe. I really doubt the French particularly are going to meekly knuckle under to Sharia.

More likely some new "nationalist hero" will ride some random Muslim atrocity to power, and we will be treated to the spectacle of anti-Muslim apartheid complete with mass expulsions and concentration camps.

I mean, this is Europe we are talking about. The period since WWII is the longest there's ever been without a general war over there.This exact thing just finished happening in the Balkans, so let us all admit it isn't unthinkable.

The above might sound funny coming from me, but I'm about individual liberty not nationalism. Canada's problem right now is we are losing liberty AND national identity both at the same time.

Okay--I admit major ignorance on this, but I'm really interested in the answers.

It sounds to me like the commenters are saying that the Europeans fleeing don't really have a good hope of landing in Canada. Why not? Don't we need immigrants because our birth rate is falling? Isn't the government trying to attract the right kind of immigrants, ie. those who are skilled and speak our language(s)? So, by that logic, shouldn't Europeans do well in the immigration race? Or is it mostly refugees we're letting in, and not any immigrants at all? Or am I totally missing something? I'm really curious, so any information would be appreciated.

ommag - I completely agree. The fact that we, and Europe, have tolerated an unreformed Islam is directly linked to our being entrapped within the ignorance of a socialist utopian perspective.

After all, since Islam self-defines itself as a religion of peace (heh - read the Koran and you'll see that it is actually a warrior ideology) - well, that would appeal to the lefist utopians. The uniformity of belief, the rejection of diversity that is within Islam - that's also part of the socialist cult, which requires everyone to be 'the same'. The emphasis on emotion and the rejection of reason - that's also endemic within the socialist utopians. The rejection of individualism and questioning, the emphasis on 'the tribal bond' - that's found within both sects.

So, the links between socialism and Islam are strong; they are similar ideologies.

Yes, it is indeed bad in Europe at the moment, with Islam trying to develop itself as politically powerful - but, as I said, Europe is starting to wake up and re-assert itself.

And, if I view the world as a Stranger From Mars, I'd have to say that the world cannot operate within Islamic ideology - because that ideology can only support a pre-industrial size population living within a peasant (not market) agriculturalism. I'm not aware that time has the capacity to move backwards.

SheilaG,Europeans fleeing socialism and Sharia will run smack into both here in Canada. Plus they won't be let in anyway because the immigration rules favor third world poor people over Scotsmen with skills and money.

My point was we'd be damn lucky to get a couple million new Scots into Canada. They'd go a long way toward fixing what's broke in this country.

"There hasn't been a scientific innovation within its ranks since it began"

True. Although many have propogated a false history of a so-called 'golden age' of Islam.

Islam claims to have invented algebra, zero, a large share of classic philosophy, as well as a unique form of architecture, amongst other things.

What the conquering barbarian hordes of Islam actually did was just another form of thievery, which they were already expert in from raiding caravans, etc.

Algebra and zero are inventions of the Assyrians, about 1500 years before Mo came along. A muslim simply named the pre-existing science of algebra after himself. All of their claimed philosophy was later discovered to be Greek, pilfered as it were and then translated into Arabic. The architecture is Byzantine.

In fact, their entire religion is a fabrication of various beliefs cobbled together into a political ideology. The one God concept, Ramadan and the Haj are Sabian. The rest is a mix from the NT, the Torah and various Jewish apocryphal writings - typically changed to suit Arabic race supremacy and need for legitimacy (such as replacing Isaac with Ishmael on Abraham's sacrificial alter).

They simply claimed the knowledge of conquered people as their own Islamic inventions.

But then what would one expect from tribes of desert nomads, who lived in tents and still can't invent anything on their own to this day?

SheilaG
Without going into detail, I am somewhat aware of our current Immigration Policy. To put it bluntly, no English-speaking white Europeans need apply.
As an example, it is almost impossible for a WASP citizen of Great Britain to be accepted by our immigration system, as it is presently set up.
There are reasons for that. And personally I find them very scary.

Irwin daisy -- very interesting
backs up a claim I made earlier about Islam being able to steal others tech and use it.

They don't need to think orginally.

and ET

As for the intelligence comment.

I would submit intelligence might not be the perfect word, but someone who leaves the door open to being conquered by higher birth rates and immigration of other groups, is definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer. (history repeating itself eg Lebanon)

Radical Islam today draws no distinction between political ideology and religious dogma. Just as that was dangerous in the medieval period for Christianity, it is so today for these theocracies and their leadership in the West.

That could change though, who knows. ET argues it can't because of the inherent contradictions of Islam. That may be true; I believe Islam, particularly as it pertains to Muslims living in western countries, has two major problems, isolationism and victimization. Islam will not assimilate into western culture any more than western society will become druids; it is alien to their beliefs and experiences.

This leads to isolation, which leads to misunderstanding and prejudice by all. When things don't go well (ie-Islam not predominate political force in world, unemployed Muslim youths in Europe), then of course it's the West's fault. So, not only is there no motivation to change, in fact it becomes impossible because victims are impotent, someone else is calling the "shots."

Isolation and victimology mean that Muslims, in Europe, for example, are aliens in their new country, whose citizens are to blame for their circumstances. This makes radicalization easy because Muslim youth for example, only hear from their elites, who increase their isolation and victimology (for their reasons), which makes them even worse off, and ... so the cycle continues. Now, people have "no choice" but to engage in violent anti-social behaviour - IOW they have nothing to lose.

Just my thoughts, perhaps a simplification; but, it helps me understand what is going on here.

My wife immigrated a couple of years ago after we were married in Britain. The laws don't exclude the British, they are simply on the same playing field as everyone else. Since the British and the Europeans have good responsible governments for the most part they don't qualify for any remedial programs and must apply and qualify on credentials and education and the need in Canada for their type of skills. Trudeau tore down the special status that the British have always had to immigrate here because he wanted to finally seperate us from Britain( after all Britain only built the country, what right should they have in coming here). I am saying this as a point of fact not of my support of the policy. I think we should take in some refugees and the rest should be selected from people who will best fit into our Canadian culture, and not the left wing multi-cult retard version of Canada but real Canada.

shamrock - I agree - Islam is not 'just' a religion; it is a sociopolitical mode of life. One that developed within a tribal pastoral nomadic economy - and that developed as a militant reaction to the spread of the expanding agriculturalism of the Christian Middle East.

Christianity also began as a sociopolitical and religious ideology; it was, however, agricultural rather than pastoral. And as such, it was based around an expanding population. Its religion therefore stressed choice; you CHOSE to be Christian; that's very important. Islam is tribal; you are BORN Islam and it's a kin-bond. You can't give it up.

Christianity, as an agricultural economy, stressed getting along with your neighbours. Islam, feeling the loss of its pastoral lands to agriculture - stressed military strength and militant attacks against these farming peoples.

When economies moved into state-based, then, the religion and the political/economic authority separated. This hasn't happened in Islam.

I didn't say that Islam couldn't change; I said that it HAD to change. Islam in its original form, even before its corruption by wahhabism, rejects the individual. It therefore rejects reason, questions, analysis, logic, thought. Such an ideology obviously has no capacity for internal change.

However, since Islam cannot sustain an industrial economy and population, then, it has to change. Its people cannot continue to be parasites on a western economy - at the same time as they (Muslims) insist that that western society change to an Islamic one! The pendulum swings - and the West starts to reject this demand.

Islam at the moment has the support of the utopian socialist, because they are similar ideologies. We will always have utopias in our world, we will always have groups of people advocating that IF ONLY you do such and such, and ALL of you do this same such and such, THEN the world will be perfect. It's a naive fairy-tale romanticism, coupled with a quite ruthless insistence on groupism or homogeneity - and we'll always have peoples who adhere to this idea. At the same time, we'll always have the brave souls who, as individuals, reject being submerged.

I think that Islam is now undergoing its painful reformation. It's slow, it's costly both economically and in the loss of life, it is being fought against - but - more and more, it is Muslims who are speaking out against this fundamentalist Islam and insisting on change.

That's why Iraq and Afghanistan are important. That's why it's so important that Europe stand up and refuse to be smothered by a parasite agenda. And why we must do the same in Canada.

A sad story, but one of a (now) thousand similar tales coming out of Britain about the veritable destruction of its society and heritage. If people want to read a book about this they should order Melanie Phillips' "Londonistan". If nothing else it will shed light on the complicit role played by politicians, the media and police in the creation of insular, segregated, Muslim communities and how these communities are leveraging the gospel of multiculturalism to defy and change British law. It's a sobering read; one that will put you on notice about similar activities in Canada, like the attempt by the Ontario Muslim community to use sharia for settlement dispute.

The salient point I see in the account referenced by this post is that the majority of the Muslims in question would not be considered radical based on contemporary liberal speak, and yet they are using every non-violent means at their disposal to destroy the host society, i.e. to subjugate to Islam. The question I have asked for years on my blog and to which few have given an answer, other than "Bigot," is: When will Western governments put measures in place to prevent the Islamicization of Western society? Can it even be done, or are we doomed to someday fight civil wars to oust fourth generation Muslim "peaceful" invaders?

The Canadian Rockies are beautiful...but booming to the steady drumbeat of oil boom. Housing is hard to find at any price. If you can find your way in it's a great place to live.

Depending on your trade I think you might like the Maritimes, which is probably more like the Scotland you grew up with than anywhere else in Canada.

If your visionary in quality of life and can take evironmental extremes in stride, Winnipeg, Manitoba is wonderful place to live.

Yes we have our cultural experiment and the self involved, unrepentent, indignant Muslims, but I think in Western Canada and the Maritimes we can switch gears a lot quicker towards expedient harshness with injustice and fools than other parts of our great country. The Muslims can act up if they wish, at their own peril in Western Canada, as they would be very quickly dealt with and shown the door.

Good luck.

In reply to markpeters - is western society being subjugated to Islamic ideology? I don't think so.

Or, are Muslims moving into Western society, and insisting on retaining their social and political structures (by defining them as religious) - and insisting on rejecting western social and political structures AND expecting the west to economically support them (welfare, medical, etc)?

That is, are Muslims successful in getting non-Muslim women to wear veils, in getting non-Muslims to use Sharia law, in forbidding non-Muslim women equality, etc, etc?

Or is it that they refuse to integrate with the host society - and the West, trapped within its post war multicultural ideology and its view that Islam is a religion (rather than a religion that is a social and political system) - has backed off in enforcing integration?

Europe has to reject multiculturalism - which cannot apply to a group that insists that its legal and political system rejects the host's legal and political system. And insist on integration.

There is a problem and it is huge.
Truth is we can't resolve it easily, we've gone too far.
Trying to integrate people who do not wish to integrate and have no history living among us, meaning Western Civilization, is impossible.
The adage, where there is a will there is a way.
There is no apparent will among too many.
It leads to massive problems and ugliness.
It goes against all we have fought for and all
we believe in.
If they do not integrate, there is no way they can live among us. It will NEVER work.
Question is WHY do they want to?

Someone here said: "The thing that one still has to consider, in this apocalyptic perspective, is that Islam, as it now is, is unable to support an industrial economy and therefore, an industrial size population. It can only operate in a pre-industrial peasant agricultural economy. That cannot support populations in the millions."

Sure it can. An institution that is still recogonized by the Koran is 'Slavery'.

I suspect the multiculturalists won't much like it.

"Multiculturalists are not realists, they have no concept of reality in any format. Until it hits them in the face, when it's a tad too late.

Can't we just have a good darn war with the Liberal elites? Them on one side, us on the other? We could kick their hides. God I hate Liberals.

More seriously, this post reminded me of an excellent book: "While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within" by Bruce Bawer.

I can *highly* recommend it.

ET

I think it's both-and. Muslims are not integrating because they aren't being forced to. Westerners, particularly policians, are wilfully blind to the sociopolitical system embodied in Islam.

But it goes further than that into, yes, full-fledged attempts to subjugate everyone else to Islam. See here: http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=1264

"DEMANDS for a ban on 'un-Islamic' activities in schools will be set out by the Muslim Council of Britain today. Targets include playground games, swimming lessons, school plays, parents’ evenings and even vaccinations. And the calls for all children to be taught in Taliban-style conditions will be launched with the help of a senior Government education adviser."

That is, are Muslims successful in getting non-Muslim women to wear veils, in getting non-Muslims to use Sharia law, in forbidding non-Muslim women equality, etc, etc?

ET, of course that's not what is happening, but, Muslims have been masters at exploiting western culture, in our courts, with our MSM, on college campuses, hijacking our technology. They exploit, so far successfully, the very liberal ideals that have made us what they are not. It's masterful on their part.

As the west devolves into further lefty narcissism and a failure to defend itself, Islam gains advantages. Europe won't be in burqas in my lifetime, but, generations later they will. This is a slow erosion, a defeat that is measured in inches unlike wars in the past.

Can Islam win? Look at the incredible gains it has made in just a decade. Our mouths are nailed shut. One only has to take a flight anywhere in the west to see the absurdity of who is suspect.

Islam has lived off of the dole for centuries. It lives off of the dole in Europe. Muslims don't have to create or produce a damn thing, they just have to keep extorting it.

Pretty soon, it's going to make the BNP and neo-Nazi groups like Combat 18 look pretty good to desperate Britons because no one else is speaking to their frustrations. The results, I fear, will be quite bloody.

Crop Dusters With Pig Blood.

TJ:This country needs an "Open Season " on Liberals in th worst way. Trudeaupian rules still apply to immigration, and he set out to destroy the Anglo/Scots predominese(sp). Hope the "Bonny Scots" can prevail, but I'm not optimistic. I'd now class myself as red-necked Western separtist..

markpeters - such demands have to be met with refusal by the rest of the population. The fact remains, that, without military force, a people can be enslaved only with their participation. As I keep saying, the West has to refuse to participate in its enslavement.

penny - no, our mouths are not nailed shut. We, you and I, are speaking out right now. So are others - in public, in books, on the MSM. There are debates going on; several times a week - and we have to insist that it be a debate.
Yes, the extremist Muslims are ranting; but we are and must, shout back and insist that they cannot require us to behave like them.

By this I mean that the Muslim world cannot insist that its beliefs must be accepted because they are 'religious beliefs' and somehow, for some odd reason, outside of debate. We must reject this deep authoritarianism and insist that their demands be open to rejection. The reason? We don't wish to live within their beliefs; we are not Muslim. We promote a free and independent individual; they reject individualism.

Ridiculing Islam works best. They cannot tolerate it - they implode, killing each other in a savage frenzy. That's why they have outlawed insulting Islam and Mo in Islamic countries. The latest victim is an Egytian blogger who was sentenced to 4 years in prison for insulting Islam.

The truth doesn't need defence. Lies do.

Dont look now but the muslims will be after NESSIE before you can say JACK ROBINSON

"I'd say we could use another Scottish diaspora. The last one set the stage for Canada and the USA as they were up to about 1950, maybe a couple million pissed off Highlanders flooding in would help sort out some of the more idiotic excesses of Trudeaupia.

Posted by: The Phantom at February 23, 2007 10:22 AM"

Phantom, that's an apt description of our past, when the rugged Scots were a significant part of the reason that English language and institutions were successfully exported around the world. And it's a nice romantic vision of the benefits to Canada of a new Scottish diaspora.

However, even if we could have a new round of Scottish immigration, don't be so sure that it will be as nourishing to Canada as the last one. The fellow quoted in Kate's post sounds like the right sort, and if the new diaspora were to be full of guys like him, your sentiments might well be right. I'm just not all that sure that the majority of his countrymen are like him. Just go to "the Scotsman" website and read some of the commentaries on the news articles from today's "progressive" Scots. There's lots of moonbat and dhimmi messages, anti-Blair, anti-America and anti-Bush posts that would make even a Torontonian blush.