Good thing Italian and Japanese Canadians don't carry a grudge like many Albertans.

Hell, they forgave the federal government for slapping them in concentration camps faster than Albertans stopped carping about a failed three-decade old program.

"Good thing Italian and Japanese Canadians don't carry a grudge like many Albertans."

What is with you liberal whack jobs? Always trying to deflect the issue. Let me type slower, maybe you'll get it. This is about Turner, not italians or japanese.

This is about Ontario and Quebec directly screwing over Alberta and the west. Not about various small self interest groups whining about what happened 60 years ago.

Never again will the west allow Ontario to do this to us; Steal from us and line the pockets of Ontario.
Frank, you are a clueless Liberal. Back to your hole.
enough

The Japanese that I know in Lethbridge and Taber are happy with the situation they found themselves in. They prospered far more farming than they did fishing, but they did miss the left coast real estate boom.

Good thing Italian and Japanese Canadians don't carry a grudge like many Albertans.

Your right Frank, one was for survival of the free world and one was to save 5 cents a litre. Nice analogy. Bait and switch.

Back to the topic....Alberta (and might as well throw in Sask, BC) + NEPII = Alberta Separation.

Quebec's power is clean because they flood thousands of hectares of pristine land and because they are French so they are excluded.

The following is exerpted from a 2003-04-28 aricle by David Jones, political minister counsellor at the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa from 1992-96, in The Hill Times (a publication that follows parliamentary news).

"From a U.S. perspective, one puzzles over the durability of Canadian unity in the West, and more specifically its attraction for Alberta. A Canadian political maxim has emphasized the patriotic commitment of Western Canadians to Canada, but it appears to be more based in residual sentiment of history than in 21st century logic. Just what is in it for Alberta? What does "Canada" supply that Alberta does not already have or could not supply for itself?

"Federalist Albertans insist that they need to better communicate the needs and more importantly the wishes of the West. They seek a Canada with political, economic, and cultural equality for all through effective representation and communication. For them the reasons for remaining in the Canadian Confederation are the same reasons that were presented for joining Confederation: transportation infrastructure; a larger polity; defence; and social programs -- the everyday goings on that we so often forget.

"But to be specific, Albertan taxpayers deliver far more to Ottawa than they receive: their funds go as support payments for many other Canadian provinces. In contrast to Ontario, their visibility in the federal government and among the governing Liberals is minimal. The issues with the most resonance in Alberta: ratification of the Kyoto Accord; the gun registry expenses; increased private health care; are ignored or decided against Albertan preferences. For example, west of Manitoba cementing the "French fact" does not get one per cent of the attention that it receives in Ottawa.

"And this is the way it will always be. As long as the Canadian political structure provides only for "rep by pop," the West would have to have population levels equivalent to Ontario and Quebec to modify the current socio-economic agenda. If, as some Liberals have tongue-in-cheek suggested, Alberta should elect more Liberals, it would still be meaningless. Alberta's delegation could be 100 per cent Liberals -- and still its interests would take a back seat to those of Ontario and Quebec.

"In contrast to Quebec, Alberta is debt free. Its economy is booming and unemployment is minimal. Alberta is flush with natural resources and has a guaranteed market for them. It has a well-educated electorate and sophisticated political leadership. With no coast line, it has even less need for an independent defence capability than does the rest of Canada (stand on guard against Montana, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and the Northwest Territories?).

"In Ralph Klein, Ottawa has the most Canada-centric premier Alberta is ever likely to elect. And Ottawa treats him as if he is some inebriated oaf with oil stained jeans. If he suggests that there are concerns among some Albertans about their status in Canada, he gets a snotty lecture from Intergovernmental Minister Stéphane Dion -- so condescending in tone that even Premier Klein responded that he wasn't going to be hectored by a junior minister in Ottawa who henceforth should communicate with his provincial equivalent. And, if Premier Klein writes a letter to U.S. Ambassador Paul Cellucci to express sympathy with and support for the coalition effort in Iraq, he gets a slap down lecture from Deputy Prime Minister John Manley over federal primacy in foreign relations (and leaves one wondering why Ottawa had nothing to say about Premier Landry's vigorous rejection of Canadian participation in Iraq). And commentators appear surprised that the "firewall" concept for Alberta is getting a second look?

"Western Canadians have spent a political generation saying, "The West wants in." It is no closer to being "in" than the Glacial Ice Fields are to being a tropical resort. For those who thought that April 14 meant that Canada was out of the separatist woods, it may just have entered a grassy glade in the midst of the forest."

/End Quote

Before last year's election of the Conservative Party of Canada, a Western Standard poll found that almost half of Albertans thought that we should at least consider independance. Over the last year that sentiment has fallen about ten percent. The feeling on the street is, I think, that we want to give Mr. Harper room for one last chance to change the direction of Canada's ship of state. And if it doesn't work this time, I think things could go critical here.

On 2002-09-30, then Premier Klein said "If you ask Albertans now if they want to leave, they would say no. But don't push us too hard." If Canada continues to act as if they are our pimp and Alberta is their kept whore, I know that I will, for the first time in fifty years, be actively campaigning to put this broken country out of its misery.

Great read Vitruvius, and I couldn't agree more. I have a hard time understanding how the rest of Canada can expect Alberta to not only keep funding Canadian socialism but to increase our funding of their Euro trash desires. I think we are getting very close to turning off the spigot all together whether that entails separation or not.

Albertan's will Walk. And I will be campaigning to ensure it happens. NEP "NEVER AGAIN>"

I will also never forget those dark days. So many of my friends, young, skilled, hardworking and energetic people, simply left for other countries which valued their skills much more than Canada. They were welcomed in Holland, the US, much of South America, Australia, and Asia, and a lot of them have stayed there. I miss them, but understand.
I find much irony in the constant anti-american diatribe we hear so much, when there has been nothing in my lifetime as destructive as our own federal government.

Early Borat Dion

"In Ralph Klein, Ottawa has the most Canada-centric premier Alberta is ever likely to elect. And Ottawa treats him as if he is some inebriated oaf with oil stained jeans. If he suggests that there are concerns among some Albertans about their status in Canada, he gets a snotty lecture from Intergovernmental Minister Stéphane Dion -- so condescending in tone that even Premier Klein responded

"Albertan's will Walk. And I will be campaigning to ensure it happens. NEP "NEVER AGAIN>"

And not only that, one might be surprised at how many "Easterners" have moved to Alberta to support the eventual departure of Alberta from Eastern Canada.

It is not the same game any longer and SD and his cohorts will need to tread very carefully indeed.

The late Charles Lynch had memories in re the thing called Trudeau.

Lynch's memoirs are classics; his "A Funny Way to Run a Country" is hilarious.
Lynch was with Trudeau on his "epic three-week tour of the Far East in 1983". Lynch said that Trudeau just wanted to get out of the country. The unemployment rate was 12% "and the economy was going to the pits".
Lynch and the boys made up a song:

"In the fleshpots of Bankok,
We drank whiskey by the crock,
While he worked his bleeding ass off,
Selling wheat around the clock!" ...-

http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/archives/005314.html

As long as Canada shuns the democratic republic model (two parliamentary houses, one based on population--giving the West proportionate representation) "The best guide to future behaviour is past behaviour" and past will repeat itself over and over.

Good night and good luck.

As a liberal and a Liberal, I've always opposed the NEP and programs like it. It is a too much of an unnecessary skewering of the market. It certainly didn't do all of the damage that people like Garth Wood claim it did - just look at the entire economy of Alberta at the time and that of surrounding provinces and states - but that is not to say that the NEP was not a horrible idea from the start on principle as well as a disaster economically.

However, one thing I have never quite understood is why Albertans leave themselves blameless on the NEP. Maybe I misunderstand how the specific technicalities of how the NEP came to be, but my understanding of the origins of NEP are that the federal government and Alberta signed an agreement with, among other things, a set price on on oil. Price goes down and there is a built in windfall for Alberta. Price goes up, and it did, and there is a loss.

We can argue that governments should not be gambling with our resources and economies in this way, and I would agree, but it takes two parties to reach an agreement. The legal history of Canada is riddled with Supreme Court cases brought by provinces against the feds and winning so you can't even claim that Alberta had no choice but to sign on to the NEP.

Perhaps someone with a bit more knowledge can explain to me how, a quarter of a century later, a bad economic deal that Alberta agreed to is my fault as an Ontarian who was 12 years old when Trudeau crushed Clark.

Ted

Living in Ontario I didn't feel the direct impact of the NEP but I sure did feel Trudeau's 18% interest rates and wage and price controls!!!!!

Amen : He is in the ground.

This is Liberal election strategy and little else. They don't, and never will, care about gaining seats outside of Ontario & Quebec. They are simply looking to win back what they have lost in those regions.

If they are successful in exploiting regional differences, they will win the election. Hopefully, there is a counterpunch from the Tories in the works that does not alienate the base and builds bridges in the east.

Here's another thing to consider. Even twenty-five years ago, Alberta was much more dependent on Canada that it now is. Since then we have become an independent technological powerhouse. Since then, global finance has made us independent of Bay Street. Since then, the Internet has made us independent of Canada Post. Since then, our trading partners have moved from Atlantic to Pacific.

There are currently nine direct flights a day from Calgary to Houston. In the Leduc/Edmonton area we have the world's second-largest collection of highly skilled petrochemical engineers. Our products and services are now used in the patch and in production facilities around the world. Yesterday morning I was in a conference call with the largest engineering services company in Australia -- they're moving to using my company's software nationwide. We no longer need Canada in order to be able to keep doing that.

Over the last 40 years, during which time Canada has had Quebecers as prime ministers for all but 30 months, Albertans have suffered a net loss to the Canadian treasury of $167 billion dollars (2004 figures), and Quebec has extorted a net gain of $201 billion dollars. This means that each and every man, woman, and child of Alberta would have about $100,000 more cash today (net, after tax), if only either Alberta or Quebec had not been in Canada during that time.

Quebecers are, they keep telling us, a great people, they have great culture, great cities, the Saint Lawrence Seaway, massive hydroelectric resources, and proximity to a massive market. Why can't Quebec pay its own bills? Are they spending too much, or earning too little? Are they greedy, or incompetent?

Alberta has 5x10^9 barrels of conventional oil and 175x10^9 barrels of heavy oil recoverable with today's technology. Sources estimate that we could be pumping up to 2.2x10^6 barrels per day by 2025 (compared to 7x10^5 today). Even at the higher rate, we'll still be selling oil for 218 more years, our hard-to-get oil will be more and more valuable as competition from the easy-to-get stuff peters out, and we share a border with the most valuable customer in the world.

Now, if someone can just explain to me any benefits that accrue to Albertans from being part of Canada, then I'll be able to do a cost-benefit analysis. All I need to do is find something worth 18 trillion dollars or so.

Talk is cheap Albertans!! Take Action. Join the Separation Party of Alberta.

A liberal NEP II won't just kill jobs in Alberta, Holland said the gas and oil industry..all the gas and oil industry.
Whether its located in Alberta or on the east coast won't matter, and as it will be based on any type of refining activity that should also be good for a few thou pink slips in the industrial heartland (read SW Ont).
That and the increase in taxes to buy all those emmission indulgences that don't reduce the emmissions.

Ted,

Hope this sheds some light into that deep dark Liberal rat hole of yours.

PREMIER FIRES BACK

After months of exchanging words as loudly as possible with the feds, Peter Lougheed realized actions really do speak louder.

Faced with the Trudeau government’s National Energy Program, the former Alberta premier laid out a plan of action.

In a 27-minute province-wide radio and television address just two days after the NEP was announced, a visibly angry Lougheed outlined his intention to cut Alberta’s oil production to 85% of capacity over a nine-month period.

The cuts were to be introduced in three stages at three-month intervals and, when completed, would halt production by 180,000 barrels a day — the equivalent of 10% of Canadian consumption.

The strategy was expected to cost Ottawa millions of dollars a day, as the federal government sought to make up the difference with imported oil.

“It was an attack on Alberta, so there was no way other than for me to go on province-wide television and explain to our citizens what had happened and how damaging it was and how we would fight back and work our way through,” Lougheed told the Sun, of the famed broadcast, in which he expressed his concern Albertans were being treated like “second-class citizens” in their own country.

“It was extremely dramatic for us to take the position that we’re reducing the amount of essential commodity oil to the rest of Canada ... I think if we hadn’t been that dramatic and that strong, we wouldn’t have made the settlement that we had to make.”

But the plan didn’t produce immediate results.

After he laid out his strategy of production cuts, months went by with no meaningful progress between the province and the feds.

When March 1, 1981 rolled around, there was still no progress, so Lougheed implemented the first 60,000 barrel-a-day cutback.

The federal government responded with a 75-cent per barrel levy to cover the increased cost of importing crude.

More months went by and on June 1 the second cutback came into effect.

The stalemate dragged on three more months.

It wasn’t until the deadline for the Sept. 1 cutback loomed that the two sides were able to negotiate a deal and it was on that date they announced their energy accord.

The five-year deal signed by Trudeau and Lougheed ended the cutbacks and enshrined a series of price increases that were closer to world oil prices.

But the agreement did little to stop the Liberal government from being trounced by Brian Mulroney’s Conservatives in 1984, nor did it save Alberta’s economy from collapsing oil prices.

• • • • •

HOW DID IT HURT?

It’s estimated the National Energy Program cost Alberta $100 billion and as many as 200,000 job losses. Here’s a look at some of the economic turmoil that occurred after the NEP was implemented:

• Alberta’s unemployment rate of 3.9% from 1979 to 1981 nearly doubled to 7.7% in 1982 and climbed to 11% in 1983, according to Statistics Canada.

• Housing starts in Calgary went from about 15,000 in 1980 to approximately 10,000 in 1981. In 1982, that figure was cut in half and in 1983 housing starts were less than 2,000.

• 1981 western Canadian industry stats, compared to 1980 figures:

— Well completions, down 24%

— Rigs available, down 19%

— Active rigs, down 33%

— Land sales, down 46%

— Crude and synthetic oil production, down 10%

• Major projects shelved due to the NEP:

— $12-billion Cold Lake heavy-oil project.

—$13-billion Alsands project.

— Heavy oil upgrader in Saskatchewan.

— Alaska Highway pipeline.

• After one year of the NEP, the Canadian Association of Oilwell Drilling Contractors said the value of equipment that left Western provinces to work in the U.S. exceeded $1 billion. Over that time, 189 drilling rigs and 161 service rigs had to be shut down due to a lack of work and 175 drilling rigs, along with 78 service rigs, left Canada. Job losses in the oilwell drilling industry totalled 8,000.

• By 1982, the CPA blamed the National Energy Program for 15,000 job losses and a 22% decline in drilling activity.

• According to a 1982 report by the federal government’s Petroleum Monitoring Agency, oil industry after-tax profits dropped 34% from $4.6 billion in 1980 to $3 billion in 1981. Nearly $1.3 billion of that decline in industry net income resulted from a 44% drop in profits from operations in exploration, development and production.

• A Canadian Petroleum Association survey, released in 1982, showed the oil industry’s tax payments jumped 88.6% in 1981, mainly due to new taxes under the NEP. The report also found a 7.8% drop in exploration and capital expenditures and money invested in the search for new oil and gas deposits fell 12%.

• In April 1982, a provincial government sale of exploration rights netted just $5.8 million, down from the $19.4 million collected at the same sale in 1981.

I remember that era. Many central Canadians justified it because "central Canada helped build Alberta".

Actually, they didn't much. When I came to Calgary in 1979, almost all of the big oil companies were American. The few large Canadian firms succeeded despite, not because of, central Canada. The Canadian banks were incredibly tight-fisted when in came to backing Canadian oil firms. Too risky, I guess.

If some people in the Liberal party think that the Alberta oil industry is going to be federally controlled the way it was during the NEP, then they are caught in a Trudeau-era time warp. Alberta's all grown up now and it ain't gonna happen.

boy. all that money would sure be nice if we just kept it in western canada instead of funding socialism in Quebec. Western Canada could become a true economic powerhouse if we didn't have quebec dragging us down.

I think it would work out to around an extra 4000 bucks for every man, woman and child in Alberta if we were on our own. Not to mention all the freedoms we would get back if we had our own republic.

No more CBC, no more french on the cereal boxes, no more expensive gun registration scams, no more convoluted income tax laws. Damn, sounds pretty good to me. Are there any downsides that I am missing?? Could someone please point out a downside to me other than sentimental reasons.

Let me add an Ontario perspective of how stooooopid the NEP was.

1) Blowback into the Ontario Steel Industry causing unemployment
2) Blowback into the Banking industry, centred largely in Ontario
3) And the idea of a made in Canada Oil Price just slowed down the transition of Ontario industry to more productive methods...essentially delaying adjustment and making longer and making Ontario industry less productive.

It didnt do anyone any good except ultimately the federal government coffers when it privatized PetroCanada....even then not sure how the math works out.

I know the Ontario government purchase of Petrofina ended up as a loss.

It would be a huge mistake. Everyone knows it and thats why the Liberals are spinning furiously trying to bury it and make it go away, Holland wasnt speaking for the party is my guess. Which of course only raises the issue of how much control does Dion have of his party.

Election now please! This Liberals will blow apart like an overwound clock....Conservative majority with significant gains by the green party at the expense of the NDP.....

Yes Ted, you didnt't feel the impact of the NEP. Well thousands of people did. Ask the ones who lost a loved one through suicide, ask those who lost all they had and who lost their families.As a professed Lieberal you just cannot seem to see that they totally destroyed a province and caused deaths of people. That is the arrogance of the Lieberal position. The reason Alberta is in the position it is now is not just the price of oil. It is because we as a people were determined to get out of debt and we bit the bullet and did it. Oh, the unions squealed long and loud but thank God we had a Premier who held tough against them. If Quebec would get off the teat of social programs they too could be a have province. I for one am sick and fed up with always sending our money to a province that is lazy and has no desire to be self-sufficient. I too will be campaigning long and hard to get the west out of Canada.

Nice reference to war internees. Which Prime Minister actually put those Canadians behind barbed wire? King, that's right, one of Canada's Conservative PMs. Oh, wait a minute, that's not right . . . he was a LIBERAL!!!

Nobody says WAR MEASURES ACT quite like a Liberal!

Maybe Harper should privatize all Eastern manufacturing sectors so that they can benefit the rest of Canada, rather than be so selfish with all that money.

See TED the difference between a Liberal and a Conservative is that Conservatives work to earn money while the Libs just look for better ways to take it from the people that earn it.

Ted:

I was an adult living in Calgary when the NEP was brought in. I recall Peter Lougheed being furious about it; I don't recall that the Alberta government agreed in any way, and I certainly don't recall any agreement being signed (you may be thinking of the Ottawa Valley agreement of decades before).

Of the 11 houses on my street, the occupants of 7 of them lost their jobs within a matter of a few months, some almost immediately. The job losses caused a huge upsurge in houses being placed on the market, with corresponding plummenting re-sale values. That resulted in many homes being reduced to values much less than the mortgages registered against them (I had a friend with a home "worth" $110K with a mortgage against it of $130K).

The peculiarities of Alberta's property laws restricted a lender to enforcing their security to the mortgaged residence only, the mortgagor was not obligated to pay the residual balance between the mortgage loan and the monies received through foreclosure. That allowed people to simply walk away from their houses, which caused an even steeper decline in resale prices. The number of foreclosues rose to unbelievable levels; each daily edition of the Calgary Herald contained between 25 and 30 pages of judicial notices of sale of homes.

The numbers of drilling rigs leaving Alberta actually caused traffic backups at the US border; TV news showed huge lineups of trucks waiting to leave.

Now granted, the high interest rates in the early '80s didn't help matters much, but the NEP was an absolute disaster for Alberta and many, many people were directly affected by it.

'Je me souvien' a thing or two my own self.

Johnboy:

"Could someone please point out a downside to me other than sentimental reasons."

Well for one, just think of the job losses to those apparently employed to ensure that the french side of cereal boxes ALWAYS faces outward on the shelves....or this that just my supermarket? :-)

I was there when the NEP hit. Thankfully, I wasn't in the oil business or any other part of the active economy. I was however close to making a house deal but stopped at the right time. I remember going back east (okay, to Ontario) at the time and getting the third degree from relatives about the blue-eyed sheik in Alberta and how dare he threaten Canada by charging something close to the world price of crude that they were importing on the east coast. They also kept on mentioning about all that cod that the maritimes sent to save starving farmers in the dirty thirties. Said relatives have never seen a cod that didn't have Highliner written across the package but it didn't matter any. The Us vs Them lines were firmly up. Turdeau could have had everyone drinking purple koolaid in those days.

Back then, oil was about everything so it affected (sp?) the province hard but now there is more diversity, as in high tech, to help cushion any federal blow and more economic independance to be willing to go it alone should Ottawa ever threaten again.

Ted,

Let me begin by saying I wish you would return to blogging, I found your site and your comments elsewhere to be among the least partisan and insightful on the Cdn. political scene.

Now for us Albertans,you in Ontario get lambasted, for one simple reason, you continue to elect these self-centered narcissitic buffoons because "we have always voted Liberal". I relaize that it is an unfair generalization but that is the view from out West.

I don't think that Garth Wood did overdramatize the situation. One of the aspects of NEP that gets overlooked is something callled the Petroleum Gas Revenue Tax (PGRT). The PGRT was an 8% tax on revenues, no deductions whatsoever. So after Ottawa gets their 8% there was significantly less (read:nothing) to pay employees, drilling rigs etc.. So Mr. Holland's OPUS about any legislative impact about provincial resources will evoke bitter resentment.

It is clear from many other posters, that you cannot forgive until you forget and we clearly have not yet forgotten.

Ken

My point is that some of you guys are still bitching about a failed federal program worse than others who got just one generation earlier tossed in jail because of their race.

It's pathetic.

You live in one of the most prosperous places in the world, and I hope you understand why hearing you folks constantly talk about being hard-done by makes people on the outside want to puke.

Alberta is an economic, political and sociological success story determined to keep talking like a loser.

Folks, did you know that Quebec is actively pursuing OIL & GAS:

"... Moreover, since 1990, there has been a resumption of oil and gas exploration in Québec. Over the last decade, nearly $100 million has been spent in the area of exploration. This revival, which is relatively modest compared to exploration activities carried out in provinces with recognized hydrocarbon potential, is attributable in part to the new discoveries made in nearby basins with geological settings similar to those observed in Québec. Examples include discoveries made in the rich basins of Arkoma, Anadarko and Forth Worth in the southern United States..."

http://www.mrnf.gouv.qc.ca/english/energy/gas/gas-activities.jsp

So can we ask why Mr. Dion is focussing on Alberta's oil and gas, when in his backyard (Quebec) is ramping on oil and gas production. Hmmm, maybe Garth Turner shed some light on the Liberals plan.

Thanks for your ridiculous comments Frank. It's arrogant Ottawa Imperalists like yourself that will ensure the disintegration of Canada.

"You live in one of the most prosperous places in the world, and I hope you understand why hearing you folks constantly talk about being hard-done by makes people on the outside want to puke."

So...who's stopping you, go puke.

one very big problem with the Quebec formations especially south and east of Montreal is the stuff tends to be "cooked" by the intrusions. A lot of the discoveries there were almost pure CO2 and "dat my fren is not so be good for substain ability , the istern pipples will not give up to the grin 'ouse gazas"

Willy:
Living in Ontario I didn't feel the direct impact of the NEP but I sure did feel Trudeau's 18% interest rates and wage and price controls!!!!!

Amen : He is in the ground.
Don't mean to correct you but I think you meant to say 'he is in Hell!' Just the ground is to comforting.
/lived with the NEP and went broke with it but not quite bankrupt. It's a long haul.

Here's another tidbit, Quebec is giving tax credits - so tell me why Quebec is asking for "fiscal imbalance" payments and Carbon Trading Market setup in Montreal?

http://www.mrnf.gouv.qc.ca/english/publications/energy/Exploration.pdf

"... Refundable Tax Credit
Making Exploration Easier In order to make it easier to invest in oil and natural gas exploration in Québec, the Government has introduced a refundable tax credit. This credit’s base rate is 20%. This rate is increased to 40% of admissible costs when a company is not operating any oil or natural gas wells.
The refundable tax credit applies to oil and natural gas exploration expenses used to establish the existence of reservoirs.
Eligible Expenses
• Geological, geophysical and geochemical studies
• Drilling and completion of an oil or natural gas well
• Construction of a temporary access road or well site...

Still on the internment thing? 22,000 people in BC of Japanese descent were placed in camps. How many people were there in Alberta in 1982? 2.3 million. 100 times more people were affected. And they were discriminated against simply because of where they lived and worked. So that's okay then, because it wasn't 'racist', it was only against Western red-necks. They would have spent that money on beer, trucks, and guns anyway, so what's the big loss?

Alberta keeps talking like somebody who worked hard for their money and has distant relatives coming out of the woodwork demanding a handout 'for the good of the family'.

Ted as a 12 year old you of course would not have a clue what was happening! As an Ontarian even less of a clue and finally as a product of our Trudeapeated educational system still less. So we don't blame you for being clueless.And so goes the majority of the population east of Manitoba.
How could you know any better?

However many of us in Western Canada have developed a certain level of contempt for the self centered, self important sort of Easterners you represent! As an adult who now avows support of a political party that represents and embodies everything corrupt and self serving while sustaining it's control over the nation through the support of people like yourself from the privileged regions of Ontario and Quebec.... a party that makes no apologies for the damage and destruction they are responsible for across the entire nation and society ....and because you do this by choice you should expect what you get!

And by the way the Center of Canada is in Manitoba...Toronto and SW Ontario just think they're what the rest of the country revolves around! Center of something all right!

Actually, the center of the country is Baker Lake. Yep, THAT Baker Lake!

Just Google "geographic center of Canada".

geographic centre baker lake.
population centre somewhere in the middle of lake superior.
economic centre likely around the manitoba border with sask. cannot be more than 50 miles from the US border.
perceived centre- the top of the CN tower in Toronto.
centre of attention - quebec.

so Alberta needs to use the constiutionally mandated "Equalization" system to screw the rest of Canada, just like they have been getting screwed.

Here's how. Equalization is setup so that provincial governments have a similar fiscal means to deliver programs.

So Alberta gets reduces its taxes until they are so low, Alberta becomes a "have-not" province. Everyone is rich because the government has fewer "hands in your pockets", but the province is officially "poor"

When the legions of swivel servants in Ottawa do the annual calculation and determine Alberta is a Have Not province, the the money has to flow in from Ottawa.

Time to rip off Ottawa for the years of thievery they have inflicted on the West.

"...hearing you folks constantly talk about being hard-done by..."

I don't hear much talk about "being hard done by" frank - just concern about a repeat of a government policy that deliberately targeted one region for the benefit of another, with devastating impact. Tell you what: after the federal government applies a windfall tax to automobile sales, declares "AutoCan" to be a 25% owner of every automobile plant in the country by legislative fiat (without compensation, by the way), and mandates lower prices on automobiles sold to Canadian buyers (but dissallows exports), then you can scold those Ontarians for their constant talk about being hard done by, 'kay?

Frank,

People of Alberta, and The West, who went through the last NEP ARE winners...but only now!

WE came back after huge hits, financially, and personally!

WE gutted through it, and have prospered in spite of it!

What you find to be complaining is in fact, a warning, ***about something so deep, that I had not realized was still there***.......to all who will hear, to those of an age too young to remember, those involved now, in anything tied to oil/gas sectors in Western Canada, those that know what it is to cherish the place they share, with people they understand well.

Talk about waking sleeping visceral giants.

It is indeed the case that the attitudes of those eastern Canadians typified by Frank, Doug, and Ted are a non-trivial factor in Albertans' emotional response to the situation, over and above the rational and logical arguments I have outlined above.

It is not the case that Albertans are unwilling to contribute to the benefit of Canada. It is not the case, pace Fred, that we want rip off Canada. We're not morally like that. We are generous folks. But we will not have you coming in here and telling us how to run matters that the constitution delegates to us. If you want our benefit, you had better get used to getting it our way, not your way, or soon it will be no way.

The condescending attitude that somehow we just go out into the back forty and miss some varmint we were aimin' at and up from the ground comes a bubblin' crude it costing you, and if you're not careful the price is about to go up significantly. Drive a truck with Alberta plates down east and see how you're treated. Now compare that to driving said truck in Texas. It's the Texans who treat you like friends and traditional family.

Tom mentions the notion of "distant relatives coming out of the woodwork demanding a handout for the good of the family". But it's worse than that, when we realize that the Canadian "family" that's trying to tell us what to do is the Montreal organized crime syndicate behind the Liberals.

For fifty years I've deferred to my emotional attachment to Canada. But for fifty years Canada has never said, Thank you Alberta, for all the hard work you do under difficult conditions to better us all: We love you. Instead, we are ridiculed and insulted. And now it's too late; now we won't believe you even if you do. Like the bully in the schoolyard, you are about to learn that we can now afford to take our ball and go home.

You try pulling an unconstitutional stunt on our domain again and there will be only one question remaining: should we call our new country John Stuart Mill Land or James Clerk Maxwell Land?

Well if we've learned one thing from past experience, Ontario & Quebec seem to think we owe them a living.

Liberal anti-americanism has crested; Liberal anti-albertanism is just getting warmed up.

Ted et al. Your implication that Alberta is whining about having to shovel money to Quebec and the rest of Canada is humorous and sad at the same time. We have worked hard for all that we have. Not only have we worked hard but we have an entrepeneurial spirit to get things done WITHOUT government intrusion. We don't mind helping Canada with the basics but when we start hearing that we are funding Librano money laundering schemes, golf courses in Quebec, billionaire jet companies (in Quebec), artists that hang rabbits from trees, lesbians that sell their breast milk, etc etc. all the while listening to you tell us to quit whining and calling us moronic rednecks... well you'll have to forgive us if we start thinking that maybe it's time to kick the kids out of the house and make them go it on their own.

Really...I think it's for your own good. It's gonna hurt us more than it;ll hurt you.

Vitruvius, a lot of us in Texas do see you as friends and family.

Only a couple of months ago I was talking with a friend who has worked in the oil industry all over the world. When the subject of the time he spent in Calgary came up, he said, "Oh yeah, they're just a bunch of cowboys like us."

Before Harper won the election I was very vocal about statehood for Alberta. Norman Specter once accused me of being some sort of outside agitator promoting secession. LOL. I was just a guy posting my thoughts on the internet.

However, you might be interested to know that while a heated discussion was going on about the possibility of a new relationship between the US and Alberta, I spoke to the office of one of our senators about the issue.

Over several discussions, I got the impression that they would have felt positive about discussing Alberta should anyone wish to talk with them.

In this regard I also was in contact with a friend who used to be the business manager of a Fortune 500 company about the possibility of a leadership role on the American side for lobbying efforts in respect to statehood for Alberta.

I don't know whether an eventuality like this would come to pass or whether it would be the direction that Alberta would wish to go in, but if the conservatives lose all bets are off. You would discover a lot of Americans doing whatever we could to encourage the process.

Naturally, I hope that Stephen Harper continues to be in an even stronger leadership role and to push a conservative, pro-Canadian-people agenda. However, if this reaches a status that it is simply not possible, then frankly, there are a lot of people who would like to see the fireworks go off on the 4th of July in Calgary.

"We don't mind helping Canada with the basics but when we start hearing that we are funding Librano money laundering schemes, golf courses in Quebec, billionaire jet companies (in Quebec), artists that hang rabbits from trees, lesbians that sell their breast milk, etc etc. all the while listening to you tell us to quit whining and calling us moronic rednecks"

Ilove that Johnboy, keep swinging for the bleachers!

For my two cents....I'll take my brothers and sisters in Alberta over Quebec anyday! Not because you're rich. I just happen to like you a lot more.

Dave in Markham, ON

Re internments: Our country was at war with Japan during that time. Trudea was in an undeclared war with Alberta. Another attempt to have NEP 11, will mean Alberta is at war with GTA and Que. Maybe we should start building the camps for you now. Trudeau tried to kill us, but, didn't succeed. He just killed liberal votes in Alberta. And dion expects to get 6-8 seats. And how many jobs were lost when Dief PC, killed the Avro. That is the danger of electing a pm who holds grudges, says I am the boss, and otherwise acts as dion. The hate for the trudeau name here is so deep it will take another 2 generations to start to forget. And now the libs have a leader and members of his caucus that want to re-invent him under the name -environment.
I think I might send money to the PQ party in the coming Prov election. Wonder how their leader would react to receiving thousands of cheques from Albertan, for 10.00, with a memo, from an Alberta Separtist, it's you or us.

"I also remember the blinding speed with which the damage was done -- from the announcement to the commencement of the meltdown of Alberta's economy was only a matter of a few weeks. For some people, unemployment was almost instantaneous -- I knew individuals who were terminated by the end of the week of the announcement, and I heard about others who were fired the very next day. Not that it helped their erstwhile employers survive; they too soon went under."

Amen my brother NEP patsy..The fate was swift for oil patch employees but it only took about 6-8 weeks to make it to the technical support industries and another month to hit the retail sectorbyt the next Christmas, retail was devastated...I saw some malls with 2/3 vacancy....the housing industry went on immediate halt and the finace industry crash occured about 9 months to the day when the first wave of victim's UI ran out. I recall seeing for sale sinage in virtually every community in Calgary...the Ottawa made deparession was an equal opportunity malefactor striking all income groups.

I didn't have the luxury of moving back in with Mom and dad as I was a young father I had to endure watching my family put out of our home and moved around to a number of less than decent rentals as my wife and I struggled on UI and a waitress's tips. After 2 years of struggling and friction over money in a depressed job market she left and I went on my own living and working out of my truck camper. Once single I worked 3 jobs and finished my engineering on a grant. I didn't get decent full time work after graduating until the economy started to rebound a few years later. I wasn't alone... I met lots of graduate techs engineers and other trades and professions doing seasonal manual labour for the city and counties.

The unemployment and under employment lasted almost a decade...people with jobs made a windfall buying property at 1/3rd its value as treasury branch and CMHC panic sold properties gained on mortgage default for pennies on the dollar just to unload them to anyone who could buy.

The human toll was, as you say, devistating and wide spread,...part of the bad times were alcohol abuse, broken families and a lot of petty crime...these are the human toll that are extracted from unworkable utopian economic meddling by arrogant cold ideologues isolated from the impact of their mistakes.

Here's one Albertan that will piss on that bastard's grave and deface his picture any time I get the chance. He damaged me in ways I wish to forget with his praetorian agenda and intrusive governing.

I won't forget...or forgive.

''But for fifty years Canada has never said, Thank you Alberta, for all the hard work you do under difficult conditions to better us all: We love you. Instead, we are ridiculed and insulted.''

Vitruvius, Albertans don't work any harder under conditions any more difficult that anyone else. All things considered, what you do have is a wisely chosen geography. Far from expressing thanks to anyone else for anything, all one hears from Alberta is the hubris of a puffed up rooster taking credit for the sun coming up in the morning.

If you want to know how punitive the whole NEP was to the nation as a whole, think about this: prior to NEP, western separatism wasn't discussed in polite company. Today, and ever since 1981, it is a tremendous undercurrent within mainstream society. It is but a penstroke away, and every day, more and more westerners ask themselves just a little bit more earnestly "what does Canada mean to me?". Quebec will never leave because it may have the desire, but it lacks the money. The west may leave because it has the money, just lacks the desire, so far. Quebec separatism is based simply on anti-Anglo bigotry. Western separatism is rooted in libertarianism. That's a huge difference. The other pertinent point is that after pumping billions of dollars into Petro-Can (with a hand-up that some companies would kill for it still lost money), the Canadian govt. was able to divest it's shares for pennies on the dollar. The final tab means that roughly one dollar in seven of the national debt is directly attributable to our Petro-Can boondoggle. Just so we could save a few pennies a liter on gas? And to think people wonder why I think anyone who supports the Libs is just a stupid person.

Except for poor dumb mislead leftie kyoto-blinded frank the rest of you get it. Bureacratic centralising socialist control freaks clustered in the greeners dippers and lieberals are crazy to shove there mythic "global warming claptrap trojan horse to gain what they had when joe and his killers rode high wide in the saddle. War measures was the only act in his sorry life that did any good for anybody. By the way frank did you ever hear how the japs treated bona fide canadians in hong kong in '41? Too young too bad one of those horribly mistreated japanese was my schoolmate in '41 at jarvis collegiate in toronto and never a word of complaint about the awful necessity of moving him from a possible area vulnerable to japanese attack-he was anice contented schoolmate at atime of real national peril! quite a contrast

It doesnt matter to me if central Canada says thanks or not. I lost my home in pierre's
swindle. EVERY BLOODY SENT MY WIFE AND I WORKED FOR WAS LOST BECAUSE THE fEDERAL lIBERALS PLAYED THE SAME GAME THEY ARE UP TO AGAIN.
for those who want to rationalize this crap, go ahead. There is one answer and that is for Alberta to force a constitional crisis and demand and end to the Federal Liberal bullshit or Alberta should leave and go their own way.
enough is enough!

Hello Greg, it's always good to hear from you. I, too, am hoping that over the next ten years Prime Minister Harper can shepherd in some structural changes to the government of Canada that can keep Alberta on side, and as ET and I have discussed here at SDA, I think that's what he's trying to do (amongst other things, of course). It's just that considering the actual changes on the ground over the last fifty years, I think we're now getting into the do or die time frame.

Yet, even if we consider only the attitudes of those Albertans who might be more likely to consider the possibility of American statehood, I don't think many of us are willing to go that far. Not at this point, or in the short to medium term. Now, if Texas were willing to split off and join Alberta, that might be interesting. Yeah, yeah, I'm just kidding ;-)

The left of the aisle in the United States would be unlikely to accept Alberta, even if we went though a shortened process. It might be possible that we could fake them out by bringing in British Columbia on the grounds of the Marxists in the lower mainland, which might placate the left side of the isle, if they don't catch on to the fact that the interior is quite right of the aisle. After all, if you can survive with San Francisco, we can survive with Vancouver. And that would I think also be more interesting to the United States in terms of the land bridge to Alaska.

The best trick though would be to get the Yukon and North West Territories, Alberta, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, and Texas to form a new country from the north-west passage to the gulf of Mexico. The east/west division of North America has always been a cultural anomaly, as ET has often mentioned here. Though I don't expect to see much progress on that front in my life-time.

Oh, and my dear MaryJane, I didn't say Albertans work harder than others. I can easily argue that we do, by various criteria, but I didn't. I just said that we have never been thanked for all the hard work we do under difficult conditions to the benefit of all, rather, we have been ridiculed and insulted. Politics isn't about logic (for better or worse), it's about perceptions. And we're getting the perception that you're taking us for granted.

That won't do any more.

A lot of you people might not remember what precipitated the nep and it was the scummy lieberals purchase of petrofina, after they had all loaded up on stocks,for I think over 2 billion taxpayers dollars, for a 900 million dollar company. Yes one of those on the inside lives very nicely in a town nearby and has since these scums Turdeau and co. turned petrofina into petrocanada and we all know where the stocks went for a while, big money was made by these thieves back then and if these same lying thieves are allowed to ram through their phoney Kyoto there is no doubt a long line of fart bottling warren kinsella types to capitalize on some despicable aspect of this money transfer. Hard to believe there are people stupid enough like Frank that are capable of making a living much less wiping their own ass without help, yea Frank it was in the past, almost broke me, caused untold hardship to myself and countless others and we, you stupid asshole, will never forget! So go stick your tongue on a frozen fire escape again you lieberal pissboy.

Yes, but vitruvius, since everyone else works as hard under conditions every bit as difficult, every bit as much for the greater good, why would it enter your head that you should be singled out for gratitude? If there is misperception, it's at your end.

Post #1 on this thread from frank: "Good thing Italian and Japanese Canadians don't carry a grudge like many Albertans.

"Hell, they forgave the federal government for slapping them in concentration camps faster than Albertans stopped carping about a failed three-decade old program."

There have been lots of fine, well deserved darts at this mental midget so far, but no one's mentioned what I thought the second I saw his post: there's only a very qualified equivalency between the internees and the PROVINCE OF ALBERTA. It's called injustice. Yes, both were the victims of this. However, 1) war time conditions sometimes require unsavoury actions and 2) did Japanese and Italian Canadians hold the socialist province of Quebec and the rest of soft-headed Canada on their shoulders? I don't think so, frank. Your comparison is one dimensional and totally inadequate.

maryjane, so is yours. Mean-spirited too.

You two sound like the reality challenged, entitled students I teach: lots of shallow, bigoted opinions masquerading--in your own minds only--as intelligent analysis. Smarten up.

I'm a person living in Ontario who has a very high regard for Alberta. Dave from Markham wrote, "For my two cents....I'll take my brothers and sisters in Alberta over Quebec anyday! Not because you're rich. I just happen to like you a lot more." Ditto!

I thank God every day for our fine PM and the CPC. And, if Alberta were to separate, my husband and I would very seriously consider jumping ship: think of the insufferable conditions in socialist, moonbat Canada if the moderating influence of the West were removed. (We do think and we shudder.)

Let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark. They can hope to get an energy handout from Venezuela.

We're not interested in being singled out for gratitude, MaryJane, we're interested in not being ridiculed and insulted. When you come marching in here in violation of clauses 92A(1) & (2) of the constitution of Canada, we feel like you are taking us for rubes. You are making a mistake.

And I should note, to Lookout and to Dave in Markham, I apologize for any ways in which my writing above may have inadvertently caught you and my other friends and colleagues in eastern Canada in my rhetorical net. As I did try to say (sorry if I wasn't more clear), my fire of hope for Canada is still burning, but there's a chill wind threatening to extinguish the flame.

errr...maryjane, if you think for one minute that I'm working for "the greater good" you're sadly mistaken. I risked my capital and my effort in my companies to benefit me and my family. Period.

If what I do happens do benefit the greater good...well fine. But I save my altruism for things like charitable donations and pro-bono work (which I do a lot of).

But let's quit with the collectivist bullsh!t about why people work, okay?

Another side note about the 1970s Petrocan. When it was getting started, Bill Hopper was looking to acquire some more oil companies.
Hey, buying oil companies who already have oil in the ground is a lot easier than looking for it yourself.

It was soon announced that Petrocan had made a deal to buy another company for a better than market price, as all the federal govt acquisitions were at that time.

It later came to light that a middle man in the deal was paid a cool $1 million dollars for his hard work.

After all picking up a phone to ask the president of an oil company if he wanted to sell his company for more than it was worth probably required some real convincing on his part, eh?

But the real irony of this useless middle man was that in the oil business of the day, more than a just a little serious business was done over lunch and handshake. Serious capitalism cuts costs, not adds to them.
And there was no need at all for a middle man in this case.

But when you are MAURICE STRONG, and the sleazy Liberals are in power, doing some heavy duty phone calling is easily worth a million dollars.
Crooked Mo and the Crooked Liberal Party of Central Canada had struck the taxpayers again.

Vitruvius, no apologies needed. But thanks. I'm a Westerner at heart, even though my family's been in eastern Canada for over 200 years.

The thing is, my family's CENTURIES old ethic--hard work and personal responsibility--is consonant with the Western ethos these days. Ontario's a sell-out.

My blood boils.

I have not been a Canadian since the NEP. I am a Western Canadian, first and foremost. As cretien said, you people our West are different, he was right, the only time he was right. Different morals different values and different ethics than the ELB's, [eastern liberal bastards/bitches]. I go even further back in my dislike of the east, all the way to the flag and it's aborted entry. Who in the hell ever saw a maple leaf out West in those days other than along the coast, and then to say there won’t be any blue in the flag because they are Tory colours. To this day I fly the Ensign off the stern. I guess pricks in the east do start with p as in pearson and pierre.

To visit tredeau’s final resting place to relieve myself would be nice.

I would certainly support separating from the rest of Canada if the Liberals got back into power, and started this crap again.

We can have all the philosophical discussions about who loves whom and who supports whom. Doesn't mean a thing; the people of Alberta will not tolerate an ethnocentric Liberal government that chastises "easy money" and expects Alberta to carry the can for Kyoto fantasies. Pure and simple, whether or not Ted or Iberia, or anyone else agrees, Alberta detects this lack of context and fairness, where Quebec hydroelectric producers or Ontario autoplants churn away, but Alberta is the bad guy. The Liberals are playing a high-stakes game of power - don't let them get away with with.

Dion and his ilk have the potential, by pitting regions against another, to finally break up the country. If Central Canadian voters allow this, we are in for serious consequences. Don't kid yourselves. This is not the 1970s anymore.

Western Canadian: Me too, and that is why I voted no in the poll, should flag day be a stat holiday.

I hate the "Canada Packer's" version of our flag too. I fly the Red Ensign--we actually have a moth eaten original--on important occasions.

I think that there are many in Sask that will be Albertans if the next NEP comes to fruitian.We wont move there but will be in the front lines to defend Albertas and Sask's economy if the feds try their horse crap again.Viva la Ouest,viva la Ouest libre!

I think our PM started to make a point to get the message out, that all cdns and provinces will have to make changes to meet kyoto. He mentioned industries in the east. He will soon have to come out, when he makes his emmission stmts, and tell them what suggestions he has for reducing emmission, but he will make it very plain that everything we do, from showering, eating, working, driving to the cottage, uses energy.
If dion makes any more stmts re consequenses, easy money, sustainable development etc, I would like our Premier to call and say, enough, one more stmt from you and we will bring in the Not withstanding clause, and undo every law you liberals and you leftist courts have forced on us, starting with bilingualism and ending with ssm. You want a fight, you got one.
I really think that many liberals who voted for him were drunk and are slowly getting over the hangover, and saying What have we done. When he gets no seats other than que and GTA, and maybe a few in the maritimes, he will be gone. I pray every night he will do worse than Kim Campbell did. Just might be Layton using that exercise room.

And the Liberals and Easterners are just going to let us walk off with our bag of money!! HA ha ha
reminds me of a line from gone with the wind, about there not being even one cannon factory in the south, sorry to point out we have no today's equivalents of cannon factories in the west.
I agree with what most are saying but, I won't believe it till the proverbial rubber hits the road

to paraphrase....

Son, we live in a world that requires oil. Oil comes from wells and those wells have to be run by men with balls. Who's gonna do it? You, Frank? You, Ted? I work harder in worse conditions than you can fathom.

You weep for Trudeau and you curse the roughnecks. You have that luxury of not knowing what I know: That Trudeau's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, SAVES LIVES.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at liberal fund raisers, you want me on that well. You NEED me on that well. We use words like hard word, family, God.... We use these words as the backbone to a life spent building something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who travels and sleeps under the blanket of the very energy I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I'd suggest you grab some steel-toed boots and board the bus to Fort MacMurray. Either way, I don't give a dam
what you think you're entitled to.

Sorry, Jack

More environmental fallout: We can envisage a new Al Gore like video with the voice-over saying the Albertan iceberg is calving from the glacier that is Canada with this http://tinyurl.com/2qb8qv running in the background.

Born (1960) and raised in Calgary I remember the Liberal NEP. Walked into work one morning in 1982, the bankers were there and said I was out of a job. People left their homes because they couldn't give them away and couldn't stay 'cause there's no work.
Everybody hear that sucking noise??? It's the sound of the new improved kyoto approved liberal party o'canada.

It forty below and I got a heater in my truck
but I dont give a fu ck cuz Im going to the rodeo.

Its aleman left and aleman right and the izzy money will do me alright.

I see Borat Dion is uneasily quite these past few days. I demand an apology from Marky Mark Holland and Borat Dion for the izzy money statement.

FREE THE WEST

NEPII?

I grew up in Alberta and I will tell you that every word of that article rang true. I remember standing in unemployment lines and competing with men twice my age for scut jobs.

I am willing to give Canada a second chance under Harper, but if we get another french swine in the PMO, I want out and to hell with Canada and their socialist francophone fu**tards.

Pardon my fwench.

I have posted "The Management of Alberta Resources" as a possible topic for TVOntario's program the Agenda with Steve Paikin. I thought it might be a way to alert Ontarians to the devastation of the NEP and also get someone to tackle the Liberal plans to curb oil production. So far, not much interest seems to have been expressed. If you think this is a good topic and are in Ontario (or otherwise get TVO), you might want to register to comment on the topic and recommend it be picked up for a program feature. Unfortunately, you do have to register to comment on the site. Click on Submit your show ideas, then scroll down to "Managing Alberta's Resources" post on Feb. 5th.

Damn Rob R. That was some great paraphrasing. I would dearly love to see that French weasel on the floor of a rig throwing chain and soaked in invert with a 30mph wind blowing on him when its 20 below.

You said it all Rob R. Us people with balls and our women who work alongside us are carrying the load for this country. Those lazy money sucking white towel waving worthless in Quebec and the new lieberal voting immigrants in TO. who tell us how we should live, make me want to puke as much as a picture of Turdeau would. This country would be in a fine mess without the Alberta work ethic, yea run the oil out you f..king moronic mark holland liberals, see how many new trucks you sell out of Ontario, see how many maritimers have to go back home and live on pogey, see how long the free day care and 4000 to 12000 dollar per baby, cheques keep floating to those useless french diddlers to pay for their beloved social programs they have on Albertas dollars. With that worthless province being 130 billion in debt it wouldn' be long. Go ahead vote that embarrassing university, clean soft handed fairy in and see what happens.

''We're not interested in being singled out for gratitude, MaryJane, we're interested in not being ridiculed and insulted.''

''But for fifty years Canada has never said, Thank you Alberta, for all the hard work you do under difficult conditions to better us all''

Sounds like you want to be singled out to me.

As for ridicule and insults,
''but if we get another french swine in the PMO,''

''Different morals different values and different ethics than the ELB's, [eastern liberal bastards/bitches].''etc, etc....it cuts both ways.

I also remember the NEP. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I was in the Canadian Forces (we weren't even officially 'Armed' at the time) so I was relatively insulated from the worst of its direct effects, however, many of my brother's co-workers in the oil industry were not. I just had to experience Trudeau's "just society" with soldiers on welfare and the UIC ski team. I think easterners would do well to drop their arrogance and condescension before pooh-poohing Alberta separatism. My first serious discussion of it was in the doctor's lounge at a tertiary care hospital, and there was only one physician present who insisted on dismissing the idea out of hand, the rest being quite serious about it albeit reluctantly. So it's not simply an idea being considered by grease-stained rubes, it's gaining increasing currency amongst well-educated professionals. The big question being asked is "What the hell do we actually get for this confederation thing anyway?" Countries can split quite precipitously, and almost by accident (Slovakia and Czech Republic). The precipitants can often be emotional, not necessarily coldly practical. A "son of NEP" such as the libs are toying with may be turn out to be a political/national suicide bomb; and Dion doesn't exactly strike me as being terribly astute as it comes to handling explosives.

It's not just about keeping the "colonial" regions on a short reign, the Lie-beral's like to take other people's money for nothing to use for themselves, the lazy ass slackers that they are. Do Quebecer's really believe that the Lie-beral's don't have their eyes on hydroelectric production as a target for nationalization along with oil and gas production?

MaryJane you twit

"Albertans don't work any harder under conditions any more difficult that anyone else."

Better have another hit off the bong.

Its dropped all the way down to -15 in the centre of the universe. I have 7 guys working for me who would think they had died and gone to heaven if it was the warm out here.

somebody needs to learn about biting the hand that feeds you

Something for all the naysayers to consider. Harper knows the Clarity Act inside out. He helped write it. It is just another thing that the liberals stole and gave credit to dion for writing. I wonder who translated it for him. He probably didn't understand the english version. Would love to hear him read it, in his third language.

it's time to split!!!
we need passports anyway

I say let them eat cake.

Once a people become mired in socialism it is almost impossible to drag them out of it. If you look at Russia today there are still people that miss communism. The same will be true of Toronto. There are always going to be people like MaryJane who have no idea what it is like to be self supporting, who are and always will be waiting at the government table for the next scrap of food to be thrown at them.

The more I think about the cultural differences between western and eastern urban Canada the more I think we should start our own republic. One with a constitution that is decidely non-socialistic and entirely libertarian. I am sure that a free country without any socialistic tendencies would attract the best and brightest from the world and would chase away all those who had aspirations of living off the avails of those who contribute.

"The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits." - Plutarch as borrowed from Vitruvius's site. Thks.

The MaryJanes and Dions of the world would be forced to produce something of value or perish. I think it would be a fun experiment.

Food for thought. I just read a (really poorly written) novel called "America's Last Days" that could have been titled "Alberta's Last Days."

Interesting idea, needed more ghost-writing.

Ted: Here's a post I wrote (from an Alberta perspective) last year, (and I suggest you also click on "Dear Mr. Cheney" which I won't link so as to not get tossed into mediation pergatory) with lots of links to CBC videos and other archives. I suggest you review it and ask again why we all still remember.

Firstly, hats off to Rob R great work. Secondly as an easterner who worked in the oil industry in Alberta in the 70's I saw what the NEP did and it caused unemployment right across this country, far worse than the Arrow fiasco of Dief's time. I moved west in the mid eighties and have and will never look back, if Dion and the liberals ever get back into power then this country is doomed and I'll be with the other rednecks at the barricades, preferably along the Ont/Man border. Keep up the good work Kate.

Vituvious,

Here's a quote from a slightly tipsy U.S. Senator - a Republican from a state that shall remain nameless: "When they divided up the continent, instead of going for that 49th parallel bullshit, they should have run the line from the Gulf, up the Mississippi to Hudson Bay."

When asked how California would fit into that scenario he said, "With any luck, they'll have the 'big one' and slide into the Pacific. Japan can have 'em."

Years ago, I read Tom Peters' "In Search of Excellence". In one company profile, the concept of "it either matters, or it doesn't" was examined. A broad swath of westerners are forced to look at Canada through that very lens. For more than a generation, we have borne a tremendous burden of equalization and its' attendant Quebec mollycoddling. What we have asked for in return is a proportionate say in the nations' affairs. Basically, a fair shake, is all we ask. Look long and hard at the birth and transformation of the Reform Party. Unlike in Quebec, Reform was born and grew from a disparate ethnology. Catholics, Mormons, Jews; Ukrainians, Scots, Germans, it was all of us with a common belief in making Confederation stronger for all Canadians. But what was going on just below the surface was the flip side- Does making our government better really matter, or not? You see, if it doesn't really matter, then the whole exercise was moot because it didn't really matter if you brought about change. But if it does matter, and your efforts at bringing about reform- electoral reform, judicial reform, constitutional reform, are consistently rebuffed, then at some point you are compelled to turn your back on Canada only because it has turned its' back on you. I'll only say this once- those of you who insist on clinging to that old, elitist Canadian model that the Libs and NDP so fervently believe in, should consider yourselves warned.

Here's a diddy some of ya might remember:

PETRO Canada = Pierre Elliot Trudeau Rips Off Canada

So will we have NEP II?

- Not likely.

Alberta separating?

- Not Likely

Liberals winning Ont/PQ/Atlantic votes with NEP threats...

- Likely.

Albertans threatening to separate again...

- Likely.

Albertans actually doing something about it?

- Not Likely.

Voter turnout?

Less than 35%.

Who runs the country?

Less than 35%. Ontario & Quebec.

Roll me over and let me go back to sleep.

There you have it folks, the vicious circle of being a ME Generation Canadian.

Yes, I went through NEP, humbled enough to do bag boy grocery work to pay bills, fiance' left me, and I lived in rented old houses for a lot of years.

So yeah, I also have a long memory, but I also remember as Albertans we are full of hot air when it comes to doing something.

Remember Gainers? Western Lotto HQ? Ok, how about recent $400 billion BSE bailout, to whom? Remember Highway 63 deaths? The Pigeon Lake oil spill? Calgary Hospitals being blown up? Corruption within Edmonton's cop brass? A rudderless Calgary top cop?

has anyone been to an Alberta Alliance or Alberta Separate Party meeting lately? These poor folks couldn't beat themselves out of a wet paper bag let agree on a vision for Alberta.

Ah, but yapping here on blogs make us tough.

Yep.

tomax7,

Whatever. But if you truly believe nothing will change forever ... I suspect it is you that is yapping.

I, too, lived in Alta when the NEP kicked in - the above postings by Albertans brought back those sad and desperate days. It was tragic, evil, and it made Turdo's mouth twist into a mockery of a smile/sneer. I hated that evil little pip squeak so much that I stopped watching all TV news just in case his mug would appear - it threw me into a rage and every person I knew felt the same way. I lost my job, as did most of the people I knew; most lost their cars and their houses and their machinery. The Americans I knew were sad to leave because we had all become friends; however I remember one girl from Kentucky saying to me "if I were you I would be afraid to stay here, a man who will treat women and children the way your Prime Minister does is evil, cruel and far from God. His ilk spreads the evil and fools will idolize him rather than hate him - he is the Devil's work". She said "He reminds me of General Sherman" - the South has never forgotten what that man ruthlessly destroyed during the time of OPEN Civil War in the USA- I have never forgotten her words. I have lived with a latent fear for myself, my family and my country all of these years as I saw her warning manifest itself in the PMs and the politicians all Canadians - with the exception of Alberta - elected on and off. Cretian, Trudeau, Malrony(who betrayed us), the Dippers in provinces(like B.C. and Sask.)..even Getty in Alberta.

For the first time in 27 years I have felt safe in my own country because a good and just Prime Minister with honorable men and women in his caucus is making the calls and standing up for the Citizens of Canada - not just those in Eastern Canada.

French citizen Dion might be the worst of the batch that Liberanos could have elected but he is just a Liberano to me. They are all the same to me; revolting.

The memories of blacked out windows in sky rises and depressed, devastated, heart broken people in the province of Alberta people during that time, come back to haunt me when I hear the words of stupid fools like Holland, Goodale and French citizen Dion. We were betrayed by our own public servants (PET was paid by us, never forget - and the rest of the country just sat on their hands!).

I have no idea why the province of Alberta would want to help the rest of Canada; as for me, I am, and will always be, on the side of the province I love best - Alberta.

Tomax7, you missed the point altogether!

People have a right to gripe about annoyances along the way, don't they?

But, and it is a huge but, they could gripe and still be secure in having their income!

With Holland spilling the beans on what the Liberals have in mind, people really had to come to grips with realizing what is at stake.

Their income, man. Their income.

Not some nattering about government rules or fairness.....their income, and way of life.

One heck of a difference!

maryjane wrote, "Albertans don't work any harder under conditions any more difficult that anyone else."

Well, ma'am, you may just be correct. So, what do you think of Dion's and the Liberals' slander of Alberta by suggesting that work in the oil patch and in construction jobs there are "easy money"?

I live in Ontario and am incensed by this calumny.

Looking forward to your response.

everyone take a deep breath...please, no repeat of the reform party days(I was one of Ontario's original members)....you guys are falling for the libranos east vs west game....I even see there is now a federal "Alberta Party"....no more vote-splitting, stay united...or this country will rupture....do not give the elitist, latte sipping windbags a wedge issue....take the high road, and let's fight for a united Canada

Why? Seriously, why should Alberta want to stay in a united Canada? What are the benefits for Alberta that are sufficient to offset the downsides? Remember, as I described above, there's 18,000,000,000,000 dollars of Albertans' money on the table.

money issues can be worked out, rupturing a country is permanent.....let's keep our powder dry, and see how things work out for PMSH...bombardion is not PM yet...if PMSH can entrench property rights in the constitution, future librano thieves will have a much more difficult time with any of their social engineering crap...patience friend, we do have a few strong historical and cultural bonds

What are the benefits for Alberta that are sufficient to offset the downsides?

I think Alberta should be cautious and pro-active on this. Throw up the fire wall around our finances, tell Ottawa to keep their cash and we will keep ours.

If that doesn't fit into Queerbec's idea of unity...too friggin bad. Those free loading swine need a lesson in economics.

Vitruvius: Diversification, perhaps? Taxes? These are relatively weak arguments, but worth a shot.

The oil industry will likely keep Alberta going for at least a couple decades...beyond that, it's hard to say for certain. Advances in technology will undoubtedly come along to significantly lessen the reliance on oil and Alberta will have to rely on other products for their tax base and jobs. Within a united Canada, there is the potential for diversification if and when the need for oil subsides.

Though a separated Alberta would no longer pay federal taxes, the federal taxes that are currently paid would still be collected and then some...Alberta would have to have their own armed forces, monetary unit and central bank, federal bureaucracies, etc and ad nauseum. This would have to be set up quickly and will likely drain the Heritage Fund and increase taxes.

And, where are the bureaucrats going to come from? Eastern Canada, likely...and along with them comes the socialist mindset. Alberta is in desperate need for workers now...with separation, there would be a flood of "immigrants" from Old Canada.

Having said that, I don't see much that holds Alberta in the short-term...there may be considerations in the long-term, though.

But, spoken as a conservative Ontarian...if you go, can I come with you?

Tomax - the biggest problem with Alberta separatists is they all want to join the US. The dip wads DON'T get it, we want true independence.

It doesn't matter where statist bureaucrats come from, they bring a socialist mindset. However, Alberta doesn't need the scale of bureaucracy that Canada seems to have become addicted to. There is more than enough in our current federal taxes to cover the upgrading of our existing provincial systems of justice, &c, and the addition of a small security defense force.

Even though it is likely that over the next several decades advances in technology will reduce human consumption of carbon-based fuel for heating, cooling, lighting, and transportation by over 50%, given that 40% of our production is already used as feed stock for chemicals, plastics, &c, the net reduction in demand, based on technology, will be less than 50%.

Coupled with an order of magnitude increase in demand for such feed stocks in places like India and China, I can't see how the oil and coal we own will ever be less than extremely valuable. Diversity, too, has become a bit of a non-issue in the globalized world. We now find our diversity among nations, not within Canada.

The only way I can see Canada being saved in the long term is effective divestment of as much federal power as possible to the provinces, and the scrapping of inter-provincial equalization. It is a fatal flaw to take money from people who live in an area where there is a shortage of workers and infrastructure and send it to people where there is no work, thus preventing them from moving to an area where there is a shortage of workers.

Since this thread is probably about to die out for now, I'd like to close with one more matter. It has become abundantly clear to Albertans since the second world war that if we try to play nice with Canada then we will be taken advantage of. We can see clearly that the saber rattling of Quebec gets results for Quebec. Therefore, we either have to leave or not play nice. We have to engage in even more effective saber rattling than Quebec, and now that it's clear that unlike Quebec, Alberta can actually afford to leave, we have lost our fear of the possibility that our saber rattling might actually produce the effect we are arguing.

Welcome to the twenty-first century, Canada. This isn't your father's world any more.

Rob R: Many thanks for a stark reality check...more liberal wankers need to be bitch-slapped back to reality like this...they pump gas into their Geos, shop for food at superstore and dine at Clancy's and never wonder where the food, fuel and effort to make this possible comes from...they think it is an "entitlement" of the effete public sector class...decandant socialst trash always do....Like the Roman praetorian class they need someone to do the lifting because they are helpless to do it themselves...they are essentially captive consumers but they act like tyrants.

>> Re: Petrcan and Moe Strong....we can't talk about the disaster of NEP without remembering that PET's plan to nationalize the Petroleum industry had 2 stages. The first was to have Ottawa unconstitutionally interfer in provincial energy regulation, ruin it economically them pahse 2 was to buy up hurting energy companies for a national oil compay...thus Petrocan was the still-born bastard of MoE and PET. Yes, Stronhg brokered many of the buy outs and ended up skimming patronage cream as Petrocan's CEO. Petrocan spread the pain we felt with the sacking and looting of Alberta into the wider population. NEP pase 2 pillaged the national treasury. Those still working in Alberta, now payed tax to support a red-ink nationalized oil conglomerate which competed against their employers.

So one of the players that pillaged Alberta in NEP1 is back in the Kyoto taxing cartel that hopes to run NEP2.

Tomax7 and others doubting Alberta's resolve to not be victimized again...another reality check is in order. What makes you think that we need some redneck outfit like the ASP to accomplish an effective firewall or political insulation from Ottawa raiding?

As lame as he is, you don't really think Hapless Eddie will allow the type of legisdlating we saw with NEP1. Morton's firewall proceeds and Kyoto intrusions will step up its pace and resolve.

Will Albertal separate...possibly...crtainly eventually...maybe not as a first option but certainly if it means another NEP-style abusive relationship with Ottawa.

Can we separate? Certainly, we don't need eastern manufacturing or a Canadian sea port when we have access to both through our southern border. Calgary is alread a North American logidstics hub for transport...and we can broker trade deals directly with our largest customer and keep the brokering fee Ottawa rips us off for. We get to keep federal tranfer money in the province and one less Government and its welfare clients to support will keep the bulk of the GDP in the province.

Alberta independence has no downside except emotionl ties with Canads but these will soon vanish as our independent affluence blooms....and independence can be accomplished by degrees until the plug is finally pulled....no need for FLQ styled separatist fanatics blowing up fed buildings in Edmonton and separation parties going to Ottawa to blackmail for more tranfers...we just slowly and surely move towards political independence as we already have economic independence....and when the time is right we pull the plug on Ottawa.

I have voted as a soft separatist since Gord Kessler got a separatist seat in Olds-Didsbury...I also realize if we are serious about independence, the stage has to set before the referendum is sprung. (Perizeau was correct about boiling lobsters) Slowly and surely the province is moving towards some form of autonomy....if Ottawa gets pushy with some radical intrusive or controlling stunt like NEP2 I think it wouldn't be hard to get a 60% yes on a separation referendum immediately...even running a referendum would be the death knell of the federal party that caused it....the soft core separatist base is about 60-70% now...all that needs to kick it the final leg is a spark.

Dion et al have to realize they have NO FRIENDS in Alberta...none with any money or influence who will support their unity cause if they want to play the tough love fedralist game...we pay polite tolerance to it...but if we are slapped again, industry and the political main stream will not take sides with Ottawa.

Eeyore. I for one would more than welcome any conservative Ontarians to the NEW Alberta or western Canada whichever it may be. As I have said if we from a new republic that all but eliminates social programs for the lazy we could dramatically lower taxes. In doing so we would be rid of the socialists and would attract people who are willing to be productive and live a free life. You could watch whatever channels you wanted without getting government approval etc

It is probably time for Albertans to begin supporting the provincial party that they feel is best going to work for them as well as for Alberta/The West.

I doubt that what Alberta needs is a new party - there are a number already existing with viable charters and it strikes me that they cover pretty much the political spectrum. In the event that a new party emerges, it may well be one that is much more aligned with the federal liberal agenda - regardless of whatever the party is labeled.

The Alberta Party is a different one than the Separatist Party of Alberta. The agenda of the latter is separatism - full stop. The AP currently has a mission statement of an Alberta First Agenda and supports the "firewall" kinds of things that Morton/others talks about.

It is rather unlikely that these two parties will end up as a unified option for voters because their mission statements are not the same. Both parties are very small these days - but have a real opportunity for growth.

If the Stelmach government does not become a much stronger voice for Alberta within confederation - the provincial conservative party may just implode by the time of the next election. It is a stretch, but it is not as far out as more than a few may think.

Just read an interesting comment on another site - this from a self-professed provincial conservative.

In terms of voting federally - a person has a choice to vote red, green, liberal or pack up and go home.

This may be shared by more than a few people in AB

Vitruvius et al: I implore that you give Canada just ONE MORE ELECTION...it shouldn't be more than a year away, so hopefully you can hold out until then.

The Liberals are potentially trying to "divide and conquer"...split the Alberta vote between Conservatives and other separatist parties like in the Reform days.

If Alberta leaves, the Canadian economy and its nationhood status will be devestated. Don't do this without giving Canada one last chance...draw a line in the sand and say this is it, no more. But give us this last chance. Hell, if the Liberals win the next election, I'll help you pack.

Perhaps a more productive and efficient move would be to FORCE QUEBEC TO LEAVE the confederation...wouldn't this in itself do almost as much good as Alberta separating? This is something that I think a good many people across all of Canada could get behind.

I certainly plan to still be Canadian as of the next election, Eeyore. As I wrote above at 7:38 pm yesterday, I am hoping that over the next ten years Prime Minister Harper can shepherd in some structural changes to the government of Canada that can keep Alberta on side, and I think that's what he's trying to do.

It's just that considering the actual changes on the ground over the last fifty years, I think we're now getting into the do or die time frame. If Quebec, via Ottawa, doesn't get their hands off our business, within the next ten years, then we are going to sever our connection to said hands.

Meanwhile, we are going to start ramping up. Watch for public opinion and various firewall operations to gear up in preparation for handling whatever eventuates.

As long as Albertans have a pathological fear of confrontation nothing will change. It is part of the culture here to be meek and never complain. Bad service at McDonalds? Wait in line... Ripped off by a mechanic? Whip out the Visa Card... This province is populated by laid back people and the Easterners take advantage of our good nature and laugh at us naive, unsophisticated country bumpkins...

Albertans need some American style gumption and chutzpah... I know thats not the polite country way, but this is our province we are here to defend...

There are no rules in love and war after all...

The last federal election WAS "the last chance" for a whole lot of us. I guess it depends on a persons age as to how many chances are reasonable. For those of us in "that certain age & plus" - these last chances have been going on for just to long.

If it isn't clear by now that central Canada will do whatever it takes to maintain political/cultural/social/financial control of all things federal (and by extension, provincial) - I can't imagine what more it will take.

AB will most likely vote Conservative federally - regardless of what happens after the next federal election. At this point, I could care less what happens federally - there is not much point even running federally any more unless one is fluently bilingual.

The Reform Party had its "go" federally, it failed and is not likely to rise from the ashes. No western based party is going to succeed federally & nobody is interested in perpetually running for an opposition slot. The power is at the provincial level now and that is where I, for one, will be focusing.

Premier Stelmach just finished an interview with Dave Rutherford on the morning show and appeared not much more than milk toast. Not at all strong and this is not good.

Another benefit of Alberta-unions are not liked here.
The premiers of Que and Ont better pay attention to the unrest out here, and quit asking (demanding) for our money.
They could balance their books if they got rid of all the social programs.
I would love for the Harper govt to put some controls on how equalization pymts can be used. Not one cent for daycare, or any other social program.
Do your part, stay away from Toronto, cdns are killed on the streets there, and it is dangerous. I think more cdns have been killed in Toronto than Mexico.

I don't want a divisive east-west debate either. That being said, central Canadians need to understand their vote for Liberals is a strong signal to Western Canada. When Oil Sands are targetted with nary a word about Ont industry and Que hydroelectricity, it is clear in this part of Canada that Dion wants our "easy money." When you couple that quote with Holland's obvious remarks, then consider that the MSM has said not word one, what other conclusion is possible?

Ontario and Quebec voters, please don't fall for Mr Dion's uninformed and divisive rhetoric. There will be fallout, make no mistake.

Let's lose the anti-Quebec rhetoric of course. In fact leave alone Dion's language handicap and French citizenship, let him hang himself on that, along with Garth the hypocrite. If the MSM won't challenge Dion's doublespeak, we will have to do it. Fight for Canada, we are worth it.

Given that it's typically leftists who enjoy welfare and other money for nothing schemes, I reckon Alberta's going to have to be careful about liberal/leftist leeches sliming their way on to the employment line.

Wouldn't want to see the Conservative political solidarity watered down.

There are already a couple of loudmouth leftist bloggers based in Alberta.

I think that if Quebec would hurry up and get the hell out, Liberals would become a rump party with Toronto as their base and the Conservative party would enjoy a majority for a very long time.

Otherwise, I agree Alberta should separate. Why finance leftist policies with Alberta's money? Starve the scumbags.

We Albertans, first, canadian second, have to work to insist that our provincial government gets some guts. We have to insist on plans that will be put into effect at the first sign of nep 11. The first thing we could do is file our tax return but not remit any balance do till the last minute, and then in small amounts. It is usually Oct when they start sending out notices to pay up.
We could be late submitting GST returns, unless a refund is coming. Penalty isn't that great to be late sending in payroll taxes.
All this to be started immediately upon the election of dion as PM. Don't buy any food product manufactured in Ont or Que. There are many local alberta products on the market. If you need a new car, buy foreign. Support your local mechanic, plumber, restaurant, instead the chains. If just a few hundred thousand albertans started a boycott of all things from the GTA and Que. listen to the cries. It might even make the cbc. Build that firewall, starting the day after GTA and Que tell us to go to hell by electing dion.

I susp