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January 15, 2007

Computer Model Science

Patrick Moore;

I soon discovered that trees are just large plants that have evolved the ability to grow long wooden stems. They didn't do that so we could cut them up into lumber and grind them into pulp; they actually had only one purpose in mind and that was to get their needles or leaves higher up above the other plants where the tree could then monopolize the Sun’s energy for photosynthesis. When foresters create openings or clearcuts when they harvest trees, one of the reasons for doing it is so the new trees growing back can be in full sunlight. Trees are basically plants that want to be in the sun. If trees wanted to be in the shade they would have been shrubs instead, they would not have spent so much time and energy growing long wooden stems.

Forests are home to the majority of living species; not the oceans, nor the grasslands, nor the alpine areas, but ecosystems that are dominated by trees. There is a fairly simple reason for this. The living bodies of the trees themselves create a new environment that would not be there in their absence. Now the canopy above is home to millions of birds and insects where there was once only thin air. And beneath the canopy, in the interior of the forest, the environment is now protected from frost and sun and wind. This, in combination with the food provided by the leaves, fruits and even the wood of the trees, creates thousands of new habitats into which new species can evolve, species that could never have existed if it were not for the presence of the living trees.

This gives rise to the obvious concern that if the trees are cut down the habitats or homes will be lost and the species that live in them will die. Indeed, in 1996 the World Wildlife Fund, at a media conference in Geneva, announced that 50,000 species are going extinct each year due to human activity. And the main cause of these 50,000 extinctions, they said, is commercial logging. The story was carried around the world by Associated Press and other media and hundreds of millions of people came to believe that forestry is the main cause of species extinction.

During the past three years I have asked the World Wildlife Fund on many occasions to please provide me with a list of some of the species that have supposedly become extinct due to logging. They have not offered up a single example as evidence. In fact, to the best of our scientific knowledge, no species has become extinct in North America due to forestry.

Where are these 50,000 species that are said to be going extinct each year? They are in a computer model in Edward O. Wilson's laboratory at Harvard University. They are electrons on a hard drive, they have no Latin names, and they are in no way related to any direct field observations in any forest.


Moore was a founding member of Greenpeace.

h/t Sheldon Kotyk.

Posted by Kate at January 15, 2007 10:48 AM
Comments

Checkmate! So, much for the MSM spreading outright lies to the lemmings of the world.

Posted by: JanPieterszoonCoen at January 15, 2007 11:12 AM

Thanks for the h/t Kate.

Posted by: Sheldon Kotyk at January 15, 2007 11:29 AM

RE: Checkmate! So, much for the MSM spreading outright lies to the lemmings of the world...

Geez, I wish. I think CTV is running a show tonight on Greenpeace and I have the funny feeling it will trumpet the Herculean efforts of Greenpeace to save our planet from the stains of men. I cannot bear to watch but the internet can cover news with more and better info anyway. Thanks again Kate and sda.

Posted by: concrete at January 15, 2007 11:40 AM

he makes the trees sound more intelligent than most greenpeacers.

Posted by: cal2 at January 15, 2007 11:44 AM

...gee this revelation of disinformation gives me the warm and fuzzies so much, I want to go out and hug a tree...

Posted by: tomax7 at January 15, 2007 11:50 AM

"To the best of our scientific knowledge"

It's a basic precept of science that not everything is known. If everything was known, there would be no need to do science.

There are many species in the world that we do not know about. We keep finding them. So to say we have wiped out species without evening knowing they were there is not a stretch.

The Pupfish of Devil's hole only exists in that one place. Destroy that and its gone. The cichlid fish of Lake Victoria are under severe pressure bacause some people decided to boost the ecomony of the lake by importing the Nile Perch.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/lake_victoria_sick.php

These example's are not related to forests but the idea is the same. In the case of Lake Victoria, short sighted economics is causing trouble for the lake.

So just saying that, because we don't "know" of any species that have gone extinct because of logging does not mean it hasn't happened.

----------------

After all, the US went to war in Iraq "knowing" Iraq was linked to Al-Qaida; "knowing" there were WMD's there. As we have seen, both of these "facts" were false. And of course the MSM passed these "facts" onto the Conservative Lemmings. So the MSM is not limited to "left wing propoganda", as you see mto imply.

JanPieterzoonCoon, your checkmate is a falsemate.

Posted by: Murray Rennie at January 15, 2007 12:00 PM

I suspect Moore grew up and came to realize that environmentalist movements were employing reprehensible terrorist tactics to sway public opinion on unfounded fear. Have you seen the global warming commercials lately? Disgusting.

Posted by: Schwarze Tulpe at January 15, 2007 12:05 PM

Virtual corpse's, how quaint.

What a simple question to ask, where are the bodies? We should ask it a lot more often.

Posted by: Farmer Joe at January 15, 2007 12:10 PM

M.R. - we don't know which 50,000 speicies have gone extinct, so do we know which new 50,000 species have evolved at the same time? I mean we don't know do we?
Nice dig about Iraq.

Posted by: Chuck Canuck at January 15, 2007 12:17 PM

Terrain --> Map --> Virtual Terrain --> Virtual Map --> Virtual Outcomes

Decisions are being made on variations of the SIMS game.

Posted by: ural at January 15, 2007 12:20 PM

Murray Renne said: "There are many species in the world that we do not know about. We keep finding them. So to say we have wiped out species without evening knowing they were there is not a stretch."

Are you on friggin' crack?

Posted by: Richard Evans at January 15, 2007 12:21 PM

"It's a basic precept of science that not everything is known. If everything was known, there would be no need to do science."

I believe the point that has been brought up is that blaming forestry for the extinction of 50K species EACH YEAR and not being able to name one is NOT science. It is fear mongering.

Bringing up Iraq is totally irrelevant, unless of course you think that Bush was OK in doing what you are accusing him of doing because hey, the environmental movement did it first.

Posted by: Sheldon Kotyk at January 15, 2007 12:21 PM

While you're worried about the pupfish, are you aware that Christians and Jews are endangered?

But that must be a good thing to you. Oh, but look sideways at a Mohamedan camel-fu#$er with an explosive vest and you and the whole UN will cry RACIST!

Posted by: Doug at January 15, 2007 12:22 PM

1) Everybody spins. It sucks but it's true. The environmental movement lives on Doomsday scenarios. It's very frustrating but they figure that the problems are real but that the only way to get a policy response on time is to exaggerate. While this strategy can be effective, as it currently appears to be with respect to global warming, it can also cause a backlash and retard policy advancement altogether. The honest thinker has to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Ignore the extremists but don't assume that that means that no real policy problem exists.

2) We may not know about some species, Murray Rennie, but if we were losing 50,000 from a particular geographic area we could certainly identify some.

3) Has anyone done a dispassionate study on the cost-benefit analysis of species extinction? If I have a species in my pond, and it is a teeny tiny sub-variation of a larger species, how much is that species worth, I wonder. ("It's priceless!" cry the Environmentalists. Which is why I said dispassionate.)

Posted by: Cicero In Pants at January 15, 2007 12:23 PM

Murray Rennie said:

"...to say we have wiped out species without even knowing they were there is not a stretch."

No, it's a faith-statement.  Kinda like "I don't know that there's life after death, but I believe it."  As a religious statement, this is perfectly acceptable; as a scientific statement, it's perfectly out-of-bounds.  It might be true, but it ain't science, baby.

Your attitude is an incredibly bad way to found public policy prescriptions, particularly those involving high degrees of uncertainty and ignorance and an almost guaranteed invocation of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

Posted by: Garth Wood at January 15, 2007 12:29 PM

Dr. Patrick Moore's life story is an amazing one. greenspirit.com

From being a co-founder of Greenpeace in a church basement on Vancouver Island in the late 60s

to Greenpeace International in the 70s($100 Million budget)

to the radicalization of the environmental movement in the 80s

to the Fall of the Berlin wall and it's release of extremist socialists looking for an activist cause

to Moores falling out with the radical element

to his return to a science(as oposed to fanatical-religious) based environmentalism

to being atacked (along with Bjorn Lomborg) by Scientific American and Prince Charles

to being ignored by the Canadian Media (too busy with Suzuki)

to working sucessfuly in having the DDT ban lifted during which millions died because of milaria while there is still no proof, as the book 'Silent Spring' claimed, that DDT causes health problems when used properly

to his success in promoting 'Golden Rice', a geneticaly enhanced rice that can prevent childhood blindness in in Third World countries.

And what is the Canadian Media stuck on ?? You got it, Suzuki. Talk about being stuck on stupid.

Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at January 15, 2007 12:35 PM

As far as I know, the only 50,000/yr species to become extint are humans, and that is a small percentage of the abortions/yr.

Posted by: mary T. at January 15, 2007 12:53 PM

The interesting thing about species is that they are ALWAYS going extinct. Naturally. And new ones are alwlays evolving. That's a fact of biological reality. Prior to the emergence of humans, about 100,000 years ago, species became extinct on a regular if slow rate. And new species evolved.

The energy-content of our universe is static; it neither increases nor decreases. Could our planet, a miniscule blip in this universe, lose its systemic partnership in this energy-content? Possibly, but not by gradual human usage. Only by an extra-terrestrial catastrophe.

The thing is, our planet (like our universe) is a complex adaptive system. That means that it is constantly in a 'far-from-equilibrium' mode; it is constantly in flux. If one species disappears, a 'gap' doesn't appear - another species or an adaptation or something..evolves to use that so-called 'lost energy'. Nothing is lost.

Murray Rennie - I suggest you take a few basic courses in biology. And logic. Your argument that even though we don't know about the specie, it might well have gone extinct - is called The Fallacy of Ignorance. It's a fallacious tactic of argumentation. OK?

The pupfish may have only one domain; it may well disappear - as species have done so on a regular basis long before humans appeared on this earth. But, some other species will appear in that domain; nature isn't like a hotel. Biology and matter don't work like hotels, with their rooms either occupied or all sad and empty, waiting for inhabitants.

As for your ridiculous analogy with Iraq - well, it's nonsense. By the way, WMD were in Iraq; Hussein used them against the Kurds. Remember? And the ties to Al Qaeda were well-known. Oh- and Islamic fascism isn't just Al Qaeda; it's much broader than one group; there are multiple groups.

Posted by: ET at January 15, 2007 12:58 PM

so much hysteria about this"nothing you can do about it" subject....in the news this morning, more gloom and doom....."it is getting so warm that new infectious diseases are creeping in and will destroy us".....give me a break

but I do think that all in all the "normal" people are seeing this"climate change" for exactly what it is"....change.......and it changes every day it is never the same...that is not so complicated and there is nothing we do about it ...so why worry about it...I just do not get it

Posted by: saskboy at January 15, 2007 1:03 PM

...i feel a Monty Python Lumberjack song coming on...

Posted by: tomax7 at January 15, 2007 1:13 PM

Patrick Moore has ingested a healthy dose of reality over the last ten or so years!

His writings and commentary often debunk the BS of the Leftist Enviromentarians.

A real breath of Fresh Air!

Posted by: OMMAG at January 15, 2007 1:26 PM

and over at "All Garth,all the time,Turner",he has begun mocking you Albertans,and your cowboy attitudes.Is anyone else as sick of him as I am??

Posted by: Sammy at January 15, 2007 1:35 PM

what Iraq has to do with the bull#$%t coming from the media/moonbats/libranos on global cooling/global warming/climate change/climate injustice is beyond me....I think it is another victim of 'bushitis'...you know, the mental defect whereas the victim is convinced that GWB is responsible for everything that has ever happened...as of last count, NO CANADIAN SOLDIERS FIGHTING IN IRAQ, MOONBAT IDIOT!

Posted by: kingstonlad at January 15, 2007 1:42 PM

By the way, with regard to 'new infectious diseases' moving in because it's so warm - that's nonsense. They'd move in if it were colder too.

Remember, bacteria (the source of infectious diseases) want to live too. They don't have any great desire to go extinct. So, as soon as we medically conquer or reduce the viability of one bacterial strain, a new version evolves that can deal with our clever medicines.

We just have to learn to live together - not too strongly affected by the bacterial domain, ie, keep them at a minimum but don't wipe them out completely; they'll return as a stronger strain.

Posted by: ET at January 15, 2007 1:42 PM

That whole diatribe wasn't worth the space required to print/publish/air/distribute it. There is NOTHING of substance in that on either side of the discussion. Pure fluff. Ranks right up there with the pap from the creationists. Devoid of intellect. The most merciful thing can said or done for that commentary is delete it. Nothing to see, hear or think about here, folks... move along...

Posted by: Skip at January 15, 2007 2:06 PM

Reminds me of the much vaunted "Climate Change Computer Models....". If they're as good as the "Weather Network Climate Models" they're accurate until about 8pm tonight......

Posted by: JCL at January 15, 2007 2:07 PM

Skip: "...with the pap from the creationists"

...oh, je t'en prie how did we get here?

Bang?

Posted by: tomax7 at January 15, 2007 2:16 PM

actually, skip, some us actually are not 'pap creationists', but I can say with certainty that all moonbat/dippers worship at the altar of global cooling/global warming/climate change/climate injustice....so, when one of the originals disputes the high priests of dipperland, it is worth noting

Posted by: kingstonlad at January 15, 2007 2:16 PM

Russian Scientists Forecast Global Cooling in 6-9 Years

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/08/25/globalcooling.shtml

I don't remember this story getting any coverage in the North American media.

Posted by: Fritz at January 15, 2007 2:28 PM

Why do people care so much if some species go extinct? Practically all species that ever existed are now extinct. I don't think we should cripple our forest industry, for example, to save the last handful of spotted owls. They just don't matter that much.

Patrick Moore was interviewed by Penn Jillette last year. I can't find it in their archives so I have posted it on my site. I highly recommend it:

http://www.telemark.net/randallg/stuff/PennInterviewsPatrickMoore.mp3

Penn's radio show is a good listen: www.pennradio.com

Posted by: randall g at January 15, 2007 2:29 PM

"That whole diatribe wasn't worth the space required to print/publish/air/distribute it. There is NOTHING of substance in that on either side of the discussion. Pure fluff. Ranks right up there with the pap from the creationists. Devoid of intellect. The most merciful thing can said or done for that commentary is delete it. Nothing to see, hear or think about here, folks... move along..."

OK, sure Skip. Can you provide 2 latin names of extinct species due to logging?

Posted by: Sheldon Kotyk at January 15, 2007 2:46 PM

Founding member of Greenpeace, and now a shill for the 'nuclear renaissance' industry:

www.aecl.ca/NewsRoom/Bulletins/E-060403/E02-060403.htm

Posted by: JM at January 15, 2007 2:56 PM

amazon giant trees are proof of the pudding.

they spit out seed cones by the millions but the wannabe seeds have to wait for one of their elders to keel over and create a spot of sunlight on the jungle floor. its evolution.

regarding creationist pap, this is one creationist very curious to learn what property of protons and electons endows them with the ability to coalesce, combine and congregate and interact in just the right place, quantity and sequence to come up with organic compounds and then dna molecules and then reproducing evolving organisms.

do enlighten us skip, unless you deny all compounds organic included are made of protons and electrons.

and if you agree with that, then tell us all here and now how they do it. what does a single proton contain within itself to have the smarts to eventually become life in concert with all those other protons and electrons??? how ???

Posted by: robertbollocks at January 15, 2007 2:57 PM

Fritz 2:28pm, amazing, isn't it ??

40 years ago, the Russian Media was corrupt, biased, propagandist. The Canadian media was by and large not too bad.

What caused them to do a 180 and switch places ???? There is supposed to be a reason for everything.

Was it that in Canada, extreme 'political-correctness' and the Media always forcing us on a calamity driven 'guilt-trips' ???

In Russia, they realized that socialism/communism lead to failure and so scams and hoaxes by the Media doesn't work anymore ??

Very, very telling.

Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at January 15, 2007 3:02 PM

Founding member of Greenpeace, and now a shill for the 'nuclear renaissance' industry:

Anyone alarmed by global warming should be a shill for the nuclear power industry. It is the only option there is to provide for our energy needs, that does not emit CO2. Modern nuclear technology is safe, and the small volume of waste produced can be buried under a mountain somewhere.

Any "environmentalist" who insists we must cease using fossil fuels but does not advocate nuclear is an idiot.

Posted by: randall g at January 15, 2007 3:03 PM

What is Darwins Theory of Evolution. I thought it was survival of the fittest, species evolve into something else. For a species to evolve doesn't that mean some thing has to become extinct. For years the envirowackos have been promoting survival of the unfittest (I know, no such word) and a perfect example of this is too many, once intelligent, human beings have evolved into idiots and worship a new religion, GW, with dion as their god.
And where have many new species of flora and fauna been found, in the regrowth of burned or logged out forests.

Posted by: mary T. at January 15, 2007 3:12 PM

More people have died in Ted Kennedy's car than in nuclear power generation by the US.

Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at January 15, 2007 3:19 PM

Patrick Moore helped lift the stupid DDT ban that had allowed malaria to kill millions, mostly children, in third world countries.

www.aaenvironment.com/DDT.htm

Patrick Moore promoted the use of 'Golden Rice', a geneticaly-enhance, vitamin-enhanced strain that can prevent blindness in third world children.

www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.17889/article_detail.asp

Patrick Moore, along with Bjorn Lomborg, are trying to instill some sence into the enviro-climate nut-cases.

www.greenspirit.com/lomborg/

Oh, and what are Al piece-of-sky-in-hand Gore and Suzuki and Dion and the boys doing ?? Allowing millions to die. Interfering with childhood blindness prevention. And telling big lies about global-warming-climate-change-climate-injustice.

www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=68ec347c-6959-40cf-aac7-795b1a9291e8

Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at January 15, 2007 3:45 PM

LOL. I like that, Hoax... It's probably true too.

It is unfortunate that the "environmentalists" that get quoted tend to be the wackos who say things like 5 million species a day are becoming extinct. It leads to a discussion where neither side is making any sense. Now we're talking about Iraq and protons and Creationism? Geeze .... Cicero is the only rational guy around here.

Posted by: cherenkov at January 15, 2007 3:50 PM

thank you Sheldon and randall g for the links to the Patrick Moore interview...
It's all very good.

now does anyone want to go for a drive with Ted Kennedy? holy crap.!

Posted by: marc in calgary at January 15, 2007 3:52 PM

... i was referring to the Ted kennedy post, although you make a good point in that last one too . Dion is a hypocrite. At least Suzuki has good intentions.

Posted by: cherenkov at January 15, 2007 3:55 PM

“The interesting thing about species is that they are ALWAYS going extinct. Naturally. And new ones are alwlays evolving.”

ET
I understand that species can evolve to have different characteristics but they are still the same species.
My question is, where did the “new” ones come from?
Can you give me an example of one species evolving into a different one?

Posted by: Cal at January 15, 2007 4:00 PM

PLANTS RULE
I don't know how the total degree of forestation is changing around the world, where there is not much cultivation and no logging the forest population returns quickly. Much of New England was farmed one hundred and so years ago, and there exist pictures of bare fields from around 1890 where forest now reigns. It is amazing how quickly plants large and small will knock down a wooden structure. Again, in the 1970s I worked at the university in Utrecht, the Netherldands, in a building in the midst of open polderland. When I returned in 2004 I couldn't find my way because of new housing developments with substantial trees growing around them.

So don't worry - a tree will likely grow through your grave, when the graveyard ceases to be attended.

Posted by: John Lewis at January 15, 2007 4:04 PM

ET - you rightly take MR to task for making statements without logical support, but you are equally as guilty.

You equate complex adaptive systems with those far-from-equilibrium. While this may be the popular/bandwagon understanding, it is not correct, at least without hedging it about with so many caveats and very careful definition so as to render it useless to all but the expert. The former is more general that the latter.

This is precisely the perspective (i.e., equivalence) taken by scientists in the climate alarmist camp, for in complex systems characterized by far-from-equilibrium dynamics, rapid changes with small forcings are indeed possible.

Do we expect you to now change your position on "climate change"

You make at least two other misleading statements, but let's settle this one first.

Posted by: Tenebris at January 15, 2007 4:48 PM

Having spent the 35 years as a forester, I am, at times, accosted be people who accuse me of destroying the forest. I confess to them that at the start of my career, my driving desire was to destroy as much forestland as possible but after about two decades I had to admit defeat. The Damn trees keep growing back!!!!!!

Posted by: Tbird at January 15, 2007 5:12 PM

Before you can entertain any kind of intelligent discussion on the elements of speciation, you first have to define "species" - how about you have go at that first, then come back and talk about Moore's comments(or the WWF's 50,000 "species" for that matter).

Robertbollocks, please don't waste anybody's time.

Posted by: Skip at January 15, 2007 7:02 PM

" .. at least Suzuki has good intentions .."

Oh ?? What are they ?? Some thing like this

www.anticorruption.ca/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3817&sid=d21344936a596b6d4db8c5ec948c39d0

Only problem is, a lot of people would starve to death for lack of food.

Ah, but that would lead to this Maurice Strong "idea" of "killing off" some of mankind in order to "save" us.

http://www.sovereignty.net/p/clim/twoheaded97.htm

Why do cult leaders have so much power over their followers ?? Is it the defeatist instinct in taking the easy way out, ending it all ?? Man is bad, everything else is good ?? ?? Or what ??

How can one ever explain the Jimmy Jones kool-aide/spaceship thing or the David Kerish/Waco Texas suicide thing and on and on.

Maurice Strong, Gore and Suzuki are right about one thing. Kyoto is a huge problem for mankind.

Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at January 15, 2007 7:02 PM

" .. at least Suzuki has good intentions .."

Oh ?? What are they ?? Some thing like this

www.anticorruption.ca/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3817&sid=d21344936a596b6d4db8c5ec948c39d0

Only problem is, a lot of people would starve to death for lack of food.

Ah, but that would lead to this Maurice Strong "idea" of "killing off" some of mankind in order to "save" us.

www.sovereignty.net/p/clim/twoheaded97.htm

Why do cult leaders have so much power over their followers ?? Is it the defeatist instinct in taking the easy way out, ending it all ?? Man is bad, everything else is good ?? ?? Or what ??

How can one ever explain the Jimmy Jones kool-aide/spaceship thing or the David Kerish/Waco Texas suicide thing and on and on.

Maurice Strong, Gore and Suzuki are right about one thing. Kyoto is a huge problem for mankind.

Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at January 15, 2007 7:03 PM

Oh, yopu meant the other Patrick Moore, not this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore

Posted by: Wimpy Canadian at January 15, 2007 7:20 PM

~~ Yes, our very own Canadian PATRICK MOORE ~~

Vancouver Island, Greenspirit.com

A 'walk the walk' type of environmentalist.

Not one of the waco-environMENTAList type.

"Hard Choices For The Environmental Movement",

greenspirit.com/key_issues.cfm?msid=34

written in 1994 and still true today. The 'test-of-time' says it all. True for anything, anybody, including cultists.

Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at January 15, 2007 7:54 PM

BHoax: Love your spelling of environMENTAList. I might start using it.

Posted by: mary T. at January 15, 2007 10:07 PM

skip the evolutionist: please dont avoid answering the question. it is not rhetorical or coy, I seriously want to know and for the benefit of the entire audience, how is it you propose to explain how atomic particles which are the constituent building blocks of all nature, living AND inanimate, how do they 'know' what to do where and when to become living replicating self-aware individuals ??? huge branches of species and sub-species that have existed for millions and sometimes 100s of millions of years according to evolutionists.

little itty bitty protons and electrons which also join up to give us neutrons and thus isotopes.

how do they do it ???

anyone feel free to leap into the fray on either side.

I have never gotten anything but sarcasm in response to this question. wtf are evolutionists afraid of ????

gee, mebbee you didnt think of this angle and arent prepared for it eh ?

gawd I love turning sacred cows into hamburger.

the good news is I have decided to postpone renovating my kitchen and instead am just painting over the bilous green coloured walls on a temporary basis. something akin to the 2-tone victorian age turn of the century what do they call it motif.

Posted by: robertbollocks at January 16, 2007 12:05 AM

Co-founder of Greenpeace examines Kyoyo.

http://greenspirit.com/key_issues.cfm?msid=34

Really, really makes sense of it.

Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at January 16, 2007 12:10 AM

Over 90% of ALL species that ever existed are now extinct. The "flunked out of life and got expelled", as my old man would say.

Damn good thing, too. Who wants to have to put on a lotion to keep the T. Rex's away?

Posted by: mojo at January 16, 2007 11:47 AM

Why doesn't Skip answer the question Robert?

Well, it's the classic, "We don't have an answer so we'll ignore it so we don't have to deal with it."

Ask Stephen KyotoMan Dion how Kyoto will actually help the environment and he won't have an answer either.

Posted by: Sheldon Kotyk at January 16, 2007 12:23 PM
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