His sister Celine looks better in a skirt, but overall Stephane is the WMD - Weapon of Mass Dominion -- that we've all been waiting for.

Vive Le France!

Dion's argument proves the CWB is a political tool.

What they're really afraid of is an opening of the books.

Restore the CWB if it is dismantled? Despite my support for the CWB that is the stupidist policy decision I can think of.

The CWB is considered gov interference (or gov crown/monopoly) under NAFTA.

Under NAFTA you cannot create such a organization without paying penalties to every business or other organization wishing to claim compensation for damage to their business market.

Is Dion proposing to withdraw from NAFTA and destroy the Canadian economy? Or is he proposing that we pay billions in penalties to North American companies for the reinstation of the CWB.

There is no middle ground on the issue. Their is a CWB or there is an open market. If the CWB is dismantled... it is not coming back. Wishful policy aside.

Citizen Dion: If the Wheat Board is so wonderful, why aren't corn, canola, oats, potato, etc. etc. farmers asking to sign up?
Why limit it to wheat and barley?

Or conversely, why not propose legislation to extend the CWB's powers to these other crops? And as part of that legislation, why not jail all farmers who refuse to participate?

Some people should watch the movie the River on how the grain companies are excited about these WCB changes.

hey you know what, I think everyone is onboard with giving people choice. by removing the board you are removing a choice. let the board exist. let people decide if you want to be a member or not. but if you want out, don't expect to be allowed back in when you can't get board prices for your wheat and barley mid way thru the crop year. should be a min year membership, ideally a 3-5 year membership.

... or a better question, why not make the CWB mandatory for ALL Canadian wheat farmers?

I think that the powers of the CWB should be extended to jets, trains, shipping, maple syrup and so on. All of these goods would have to be sold to the CWB (headquartered in the West) who would then market these items and sell them as they saw fit. I am sure that Bombardier, CSL and all those maple syrup producers would support this right?

Get the broom out, Harper, and fast...There are too many Liberal cronies working against your government in order to save their long held, useless jobs. The last thing we need in this country right now is another PM from Quebec--or from anywhere in the east--except the Newfies, of course..:)

We are seeing very quickly that Mr. Dion is a Liberal's liberal. His priorities are the same as the recent Liberal governments - punish those who produce.

If he is the "reinstate" these controls, does he plan to jail Québec farmers as well for the crime of selling thier crops without the government as a middleman?

Denis - THAT'S the right question! Why is the CWB dealing only with the West - and Ontario and Quebec farmers are free to sell their wheat?

Is it that Dion's focus is, as usual, the Liberal focus on Ontario and Quebec (the House seats are there, after all)...He doesn't want the CWB abolished and His Voting Base in Ontario and Quebec, exposed to competition!

The Liberals, as usual, totally ignore the West. Their only consideration is Winning. Dion is a clone of Chretien - who was very clear about this Liberal Agenda. There is only one Liberal Agenda: Winning. And, despite the population change which gives the West a larger population than Quebec, they still don't have 'equalization' of seats. Quebec has 11 more than BC/Alberta - despite the latter having a larger population.

Dion is campaigning; he wants the votes in Quebec and Ontario. He knows he won't get them in the West - so, he drops their economic viability in the garbage. He's not interested in anyone unless they provide him with votes.

Heh... the Liebrano$$$ continue to shoot themselves in the foot. Continue to prove they're discriminatory towards the Western half of Canada. Excellent! Another big plastic bat with which to whack 'em in the next election: they wanna destroy the West!

Dion is already demonstrating his inherited "Liberal" fascism towards the West in particular. Note that there's no demand in the West for the CWB, yet the new Liebrano mob leader is already declaring his theoretical intent to preserve another vestige of the thankfully-bygone Soviet Canuckistan era of his own party's previous regime.

Hard-left Quebeqois-Ontarian supremacist ideologues? That quite aptly describes the Liberals.

Imagine if something hated by Quebeckers was removed by the Tories and Dion promised to restore it. Imagine the uproar from les quebecois against the Lib$!

New Decima poll out.

"Denis - THAT'S the right question! Why is the CWB dealing only with the West - and Ontario and Quebec farmers are free to sell their wheat?"

Because Que and Ont produce about as much wheat in comparison to western Canada as Saskatchewan produces in airplanes compared to Quebec and Ontario????

Good point Barcs:
Que/Ont grain farmers need to become part of the CWB in order to improve their share of the market. Perhaps Mr Dion has this in mind. Then the CWB could become a Traditional Canadian Value, much like Universal Health Care.

Cheers

I was listening to the CEO of the CWB lobby for his job on CBC AM Radio last night and was struck by his comment that the BoD of the CWB believes they have a potential "charter challenge" to use as a weapon against the sitting government of the day.

I like a kid with Moxie.

That does raise the question of whether the creation and continued existence of the CWB is a charter rights violation and whether anyone is prepared to throw some money behind a challenge in the courts.

"Because Que and Ont produce about as much wheat"

Irrelevant. Either all citizens have the same freedoms to enjoy property in this country - or we don't.

I am beginning to think we just need to give this guy enough rope and he will hang himself.

Allow the Auditor General full access to CWB's books........and then let's have this debate again about how great the CWB is. Why do you think they are fighting so hard to keep that information secret? Let's just have the facts, please - I would think that, at the minimum, farmers should be able to reasonably expect financial accountability and transparency from the monopoly organization that does their marketing.

Either all citizens have the same freedoms to enjoy property in this country

Unless you like to smoke cigarettes. If so, you'd best live on a reserve, which is called "First Nation" but, is not really a nation, even though they call it one, and therefore they shouldn't encourage Quebec to call itself a Nation or else they may smoke too much as well.

Allow the Auditor General full access to CWB's books

They are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act and don't come under the scrutiny of the AG due to the peculiarities of their religious mandate.

Australia takes first step to end wheat exporter's monopoly

By Tim Johnston / International Herald Tribune
Published: December 5, 2006

Hmmmmm.

Notwithstanding clause
http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/bp194-e.htm
(Ask Mr. Dion which province uses it most liberally)

Equalization payments.
Differential Tax rates across provinces.
Progressive Tax.
Affirmative action.
Government Monopolies like Sasktel (remember you couldn't own a phone not so long ago?)

Canada is not built on equality of freedoms for people it is built on people in powere trying to balance hundreds of inequalities into their point of view.

I thought you would like to see this small response I got from the CWB. I phoned them and asked them who was paying for the legal action being taken against the federal government. I wonder how many farmers out there know the CWB can dip into their hard earned money when ever it pleases. The gag order has been put into effect not only to stop the CWB from self promoting itself but to stop it from wasting farmers pool account money. The CWB has no right to waist my money on this legal action. The CWB is supposed to return all money to the farmers less marketing costs. It does not have the right or mandate to waist my money on court cases to have a gag order overturned so it can waist more of my hard earned money. I think if Ken Ritter and all the rest of the CWB payroll fear for their gravy jobs so much they should throw some of their paychecks into the pot with mine!
"In response to your question regarding the legal action, all CWB costs are paid from the pool accounts. Any expenditures incurred for legal proceedings will be derived from this source".
If you have any further inquiries, please e-mail us or call us toll free at 1-800-275-4292.
Charlotte
Business Centre Representative
Farmer Relations and Public Affairs

I've mentioned before that Dion sounds like a leftist version of former Manitoba PC leader Stuart Murray.

His lastest missive reinforces my perception that Dion doesn't have an original thought to call his own; all he has done so far is merely react negatively to whatever the government does, and to uncritically trot out whatever policies the Liberals have been wedded to in the past. The lack of positive new ideas will not go over well with voters, as Stu Murray found out.

Finallly, after weeks of googleing CWB Newman is an expert. Dion probably never heard of it before Saturday. Question still is, What did he know about adscam and when did he know it. Stockwell Day had a good response to that liberal on steroids today, If the member knew so much a month ago, why didn't he bring it to the attention of the House or the Committee. Even Paul Hunter said, after reading said letter, that if it landed on a Ministers desk, it would appear that the problem was solved. The letter said, due to the inacurracies reported in the media, etc.
The msm takes another fall from grace.

I agree Dwight. It is unfair. But can you name for me a business or non-profit that doesn't pay expenses like labour, court costs, capital costs, advertising, etc etc out of operating costs before declaring a profit??

As an economic refugee from NL I fully support the end of the CWB. Why? The CWB has signed trade agreements with European countries like Spain and Portugal for those countries to purchase Canadian wheat in exchange for access to the fish resources off the Grand banks of NL. In Spain's case the lucrative fishing grounds off NL have also been tied to contracts with Bombardier to provide trains and planes for that country.

If farmers have to sell their farmed goods on the world markets there is no need for collective trade agreements between countries. At this moment, there are between 20-30 countries fishing off the coast of NL and using fishing techniques which are devastating the fragile ecosystem of the Grand Banks and Flemish Cap while local residents are given EI and other handouts to stay at home. These local residents can later read in the Globe and Mail about how needy they are and how NL is a have not province.

This is why the CWB is so important to Liberals, especially those from Ont. and Que. They are using the resources of the province of NL, in effect killing its culture and economy, to further the economies of Ont. and Que. Wheat, planes, trains, automobiles all tied into fish resource access.

Kill the CWB and help free NL from its colonial oppressors!

"I am beginning to think we just need to give this guy enough rope and he will hang himself."--Wildrose

I'm beginning to think that way also. Today in QP, he stands up for not one, but two supplementals directly challenging the PM in a campaign over this issue. Is this how far off the rails the Liberal machine has crashed, or are Western farmers the new whipping boy now that Ralph is gone? Either way, the Libs under Dion are primed to do more serious damage to Canadian unity than Trudeau, Levesque and Bouchard combined.

Look at the money the govt is saving, Zac is gone, CEO of CWB soon will be gone. Perhaps these people should have done their jobs in the best interest of canadians instead of themselves. how much did the RCMP get from ADSCAM. Other head honchos better watch out. Has a replacement been named for the top job at CBC.

Meet the new Liberal leader, same as the old Liberal leader.

Either all citizens have the same freedoms to enjoy property in this country - or we don't. -Kate

--Absolutely! And that is precisely the very principle/philosophy/value the liberal-left, including the Liberal Party of Canada, refuses to embrace.

I challenge the MSM to quote Kate on that one, for it's perhaps destined to become a classic quotation.

See: Dion has effectively promised to restore a discriminatory instrument of the state . A communistic vestige of the ancient (Liberal) past. Dion wants to control the entire confederation from the center- Ottawa. The last thing Canada needs/wants is more centralized command and control of everything.

And that is precisely what les quebecois have not been saying they want, same as Western Canada!

I'm afraid that Stephane Dion doesn't understand the reality of Canada, nor of any of the provinces. Add that to his refusal to surrender his foreign citizenship and we're already into an expectedly looong list of reasons to avoid Dion and the Liberals as we would Polonium 210!

From the linked article:

"The last time there was a plebiscite on barley a few years ago, the board received support from about two-thirds of those who voted and the turnout was 75 per cent, so that was a pretty significant endorsement," Goodale told CBC.

Have another plebiscite and let the farmers decide.

THE GREATEST REWARD
by Stephane "Celine" Dion

So suddenly, so strange
Life wakes you up, things change
Ive done my best, Ive served my call
I thought I had it all

So suddenly, so strong
My prejudice was gone
You needed me, I found my place
Im different now, these days

Now the greatest reward
Is the light in your eyes
The sound of your voice
And the touch of your hand
You made me who I am

You trusted me to grow
I gave my heart to show
Theres nothing else I cherish more
I stand by you for sure

Now the greatest reward
Is the love that I can give
Im here for you now
For as long as I live
You made me who I am

So suddenly, its clear to me
Things change
Our future lies in here and now
We made it through somehow

Now the greatest reward
Is the love that I can give
Im here for you now
For as long as I live
You made me who I am

You made me who I am

Keep it up, Stephane, you're off to a great start!

Keep it up, Stephane, you're off to a great start!

"Have another plebiscite and let the farmers decide."

This misses the point, even if 99% of farmers voted to maintain the Wheat Board monopoly you would be suppressing the rights of the 1% who want the freedom to market their grains themselves.

Also, if support of the Wheat Board is so high, making participation in the CWB optional shouldn't hurt the board's future at all. After all if the farmers like it they can still use it, only those dissatisfied would go elsewhere.

Regarding this plebicite which Ralph G is waiving around.........I have family in farming who saw these and stated uncategorically that the wording was biased to a response in their favour and that the process was rigged.

When you think you're the monopoly player, you can do this kind of thing and try to get away with it. I'd like to see the actual questions asked in any plebicite that CWB is asserting results for. That and and audit of their books!

No, Denis. The point is that in a democracy you go along with the wishes of the majority. Would it be acceptable for the 60% of the electorate who didn't vote Conservative to reject Harper as PM and start their own government?

Ah, yes, but the 60% who happened not to vote for Harper didn't all vote for the same alternate leader. In this country, we are asked to vote FOR someone on the ballot, not AGAINST someone. It's not quite the same thing.

Whoa - I thought we had a Charter of Rights that can't be usurped by a democratic vote? If that's the case, then let's put gay marriage to a nationwide vote.

OK, so what part of the Charter is the CWB violating? (Not trolling - serious question.)

80% of grain production is done by less than 20% of farmers and 90% of those want freedom to market their grain with out Socialist Nazis interference. Oppressing the economic freedom of individuals is disgusting no matter how many farmers support the CWB. However, the real issue for the Libs is the fraud and corruption yet to be uncovered in the CWB. Paul Jackson of the Calgary Sun said: " The Conservatives are moving to de-list inactive producers, and just months ago found some 34% of 'eligible' electors had made no wheat sales in the past two years.
Almost 10% had made no sales in almost a decade!"

The Liberals know that " The truth shall set them free" . A scary thought to that corrupt bunch of Liberal gangsters.

The fact that Adrian Measner was with Dion when he made these statements is further proof that the CWB isn't making the slightest effort to be anywhere near objective in this debate. For that transgression alone, Measner should be fired.

If he wants to be a politician, he should run for office.

"What they're really afraid of is an opening of the books."

Kate - I couldn't agree with you more.

Watching Question Period today, it was interestingly pointed out by the conservatives that nobody from the liberanos have made an access to information request regarding the Wheat Board. What in tarnation are they afraid of finding out? That there isn't really any value to the board? That the Eastern farmers are blessed by not being shackled by the board... oooh the secrecy of it all.

"OK, so what part of the Charter is the CWB violating?"

How about the individual's right to liberty (1.7)?

liberty
Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control

And ANOTHER thing (now that you got me going on this thing!) - they are many assertions that lifting this marketing monopoly would free up producers to engage in all sorts of other activities which would result in processing being here in the West. What we're talking about is generating more economic activity and business starts here.

For example, pasta processing......why are we not doing this in Sask, where we grow a lot of the durum wheat used in pasta? The Sask govt has meddled in this as well, to the detriment of actually getting a pasta plant up and running here. I know there is a pasta plant in Alberta, however.

There is just as much reason to believe that farmers who can manage their own marketing might participate in or encourage all sorts of secondary industry development here in the West, as there is to believe that they can't survive without the all-knowing, benevolent hand of the CWB managing their marketing. Is this what we're afraid of? that that we might actually succeed?

"OK, so what part of the Charter is the CWB violating?"
How about the individual's right to liberty (1.7)?
Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control''

.'' Either all citizens have the same freedoms to enjoy property in this country - or we don't.''

Then give me the choice of whether or not my property should be confiscated to subsidize these freedom loving farmers.

I laughed my head off when I heard Steve Dion say that he would re-impose the CWB on Western farmers if he became PM. The only reason the CWB exists right now is because of inertia, and the fact that western farmers could never find a non-political judge with some balls to allow them to get it to a Court Challenge under the Charter of Rights.

After Western Canadian PM Harper kills the CWB, the EASTERN Liberal citizen of France PM Dion would have to argue the federal government's necessity to TAKE AWAY the rights and freedoms of the WESTERN grain farmers. I mean, how utterly stupid could these Liberals be? Even using the traditional Liberal method of judge-shopping, any judge would have to be brain dead (unfortunately a real possibility in this Liberal tainted justice system) to re-impose slavery on Western Canada's farmers again.
This present feudal CWB is a regressive black mark on Western Canadian society, and would be dead meat under any definition of rights in today's world.

I am sooooooo upset. After selling our farm 7 years ago, guess what, we are finally delisted. Why should we be allowed to vote on this plebicite. We also got a ballot for the election of a new member to the board. Shredded it. Open the books and this will go away, ha ha, there is more scam there than one can imagine. When ever there is a strike on the west coast, all demurrage charges etc are paid for by the CWB, out of farmers money. All legal costs fighting any rulings come out of farmers money. I used to bombard them with questions like, why do you get full salary when you are wasting our money.

There was a Charter challenge of the CWB in the nineties, and it was defeated. Perhaps those who feel strongly about this should try again.

I asked you before, Maryjane - what do you do for a living?

"OK, so what part of the Charter is the CWB violating?"

Section 15 - equality.

The question is, will the bobble head Librano-voting zombies in Trawna buy into it as a good idea, or not, regardless of its viability? My guess is that not too many of them will bother to become more informed than the Trawna Red Star, Commie Broadcasting Contraption and Bull CluelessMedia will spoon feed to them.

Watch for new pictures of long trains of wheat-carrying trains, elevators, CSL grain-carrying ships and so on as the hermetic sealing of the Librano voting rats continues apace.

Freedom. To a Librano, it's a dangerous thing.

Look at the CWB like a realtor, or an auctioneer.

In selling a property, realtors take a percentage of the sale price (home sales: 7%/first 100000, 3%/rest, split between two realtors). Now, is a seller's realtor TRULY interested in maxing out the price for a seller, or more interested in a quick sale, since they get 3% ($30) of an extra thousand, and more sales make more money (volume, volume, volume).

An auctioneer is paid a percentage of the selling price of a item. Again, the autioneer gets only a small portion of the selling price, but nothing if the item isn't sold, so his motivation is to SELL at any price.

The CWB wants to get rid of their stocks of wheat/barley as quickly as possible. The nasty bit is that the CWB gets paid from the profits from the sale of someone else's product as a flat fee, not a percentage, so that all they have to do is sell for enough to pay their own expenses, and who cares about the farmer. They have no motivation to sell for a decent price, just to sell.

And the law forces Prairie farmers to sell only through the CWB. You can sell your house or your items yourself, and avoid a realtor or an auctioneer, and get the best price, but not your wheat/barley.

So, since the softwood industry is in so much trouble, why not the Canadian Lumber Board, just for Alberta/BC? Or the Maritimes Fish Board (wait a minute, too late). Or the Canadian Manufacturing Board for Ontario. Or the NOB for Alberta petroleum, but not the Maritimes or BC?

I seem to remember, from the past, when farmers were ranting about the CWB selling cheap to some country or another, and the Canadian government giving loan gaurantees to that country to pay for the grain (they defaulted, of course, so the farmers ended up paying for their own grain through taxes.)

As a "benefit" for farmers, this seems like a non-starter.

Or am I wrong, and the CWB squeezes every penny they can from the buyers?

Sorry Wildrose, don't buy it. It is a laudable goal tho.

Lets take your example of a pasta plant. Yes it would be good for my farm and I would love to have one near me. And if they set up one in say Swift Current and asked for investment... I would still try to find an opportunity to invest in one near Toronto.

I must be nuts right? or maybe I know enough geography and economics to know that I would make more money investing in a pasta plant in Toronto than one around here. Pasta is a good example because of the transportation involved. Pasta compared to wheat is a very fragile product and people don't want to buy noodles broken in transport. Then there is increasing the space in the truck with the air b/t the noodles. Grain in comparison is far cheaper to move and who cares if it gets cracked because we are gonna pulverize it anyway.

There will not be a pasta plant built in Saskatchewan in the next 50 years. At least not by anyone with good business sense.

The North Battleford ethanol plant is another good example of how to do something backwards. They are trying to buy farmer investment to put it up by guaranteeing a floor price to shareholders on a portion of deliveries. Problem is... would you invest in a company that is committing to buy it inputs at above market value for them? Again very good for the farmers in the area. Stupid for anyone interested in investing.

I have always wondered why economics is not required to graduate say... Kindergarten let alone most university.

And yet another nail in the "natural ruling party's"coffin over at Angry..Landslide Annie KNEW about cost overruns with Gun Registry..lots of info there!The new Libs should change their name to all sleaze all the time.They knew,and if let out,could have cost them election..Annie retained her seat that yr.Putrid!

Charter Schmarter. Who cares about that waste of paper. The point is that if you produce something you should be allowed to sell and or market it yourself and reap ALL of the profit for your labours. That is called C-A-P-I-T-A-L-I-S-M. I don't care much about what laws politicians have cooked up to line the pockets of themselves and their friends. This is one of those things that is easily figured out by anyone with common sense.

Also note that I am not claiming Liberals lack common sense. I am pointing out the fact that they are two-bit hoods hustling farmers for "protection" money. If that is a position you are willing to defend...well, maybe you should move to Cuba with one of the Trudeau boys.

''I asked you before, Maryjane - what do you do for a living?''

Private sector, blue collar, but what possible difference could it make to the issue at hand?

I'll be very surprised if the Conservative government is able to dismatle the CWB. Any Plebicite they hold will find a way to be played with especially if its a mail in ballot. "It doesn't matter who casts the vote only who counts it" -- that was from Stalin.

To understand the left's playbook take a look at the recent election in Venezuela. Corruption!!
A recent study by an EASTERN Canadian "think-tank" just got proposed that excessive taxation makes average quality of life "better" (translation:if everyones poor, average income falls, poor people no longer consdered to be in poverty. : since everyone has nothing socialism is a benefit)(apparently this doesn't make people happy!! go Figure!!) With these kinds of people around getting headlines in the MSM it kinda looks like communism ain't dead yet, NO matter how BAD an idea it is!!

Things are only going to change when Western People get tired of this "special treatment" and stand up. Sadly words probably won't be enough.
(Western people = People who call the WEST home for the long term, not migratory workers)

As you're really a one trick pony here, it's useful to put your complaints about subsidies in the appropriate context.

maryjane:

I assume that you are referring to subsidies, relief, etc to farmers from general taxes.

A difficult issue.

(No sarcasm intended at any point)

Canada could try subsistance farming; only enough farms producing enough food for the country's own usage. Of course, that would reduce the number of farms, reducing the tax base, and we would have to buy out the extra farmers, from tax revenue. And, of course, imports from a subsidised country would kill a few more farms, because we can't block imports (WTO rules) and can't compete with subsidies. And we would be vulnerable to drought, pestilence, global warming, global cooling, etc. And the price of food would increase to a more realistic level. And the poor would need more money to buy food, raising taxes to pay welfare, etc...

We could stop subsidising "orphan" crops like hemp and other trendy things that no-one knows what to do with. Maybe a good idea anyway.

We could just cut farmers loose; sink or swim. Unfortunately, after the blood-bath, food would be nearly unobtainium, but since we need to be a Third World country to meet Kyoto, that would be a great help. And, there's that shrinking tax base that has to be compensated by raising tax rates.

And, though it all, the price of cotton and sugar in the US or wheat in the EU wouldn't be effected in the slightest. Because, they DO subsidise their farmers unmercifully.

The problem is that we either sink or swim as a nation; it is us against the world. The farm subsidies hurt you and me at our tax time, but the alternative is also painful. As largely a raw materials exporter, we have some built-in disadvantages. As a value-added nation that exports unique products, we wouldn't be at the mercy of commodities markets. We aren't, so we are.

And all of the farmers I know are just waiting until the year the money runs out and then they quit/lose the farm, unless they have an outside job that subsidises the farm. And that is a killer lifestyle.

Of course, maybe the billion dollars ... um ... expropriated??? for softwood lumber could be used to pay off whatever the Nafta fines are for the CWB. Put it on the tab! Would we really have to throw out NAFTA? These are exceptions to the trade between the U.S. and Canada. We'll continue to muddle along.
Let's face it, while the Americans pander to swing state governors, both sides in Canada play politics with the Wheat Board, looking for voters in different places. However, when it comes down to a free vote on the CWB, most producers support it. Don't they? At least as far as the CWB's elected representatives go. You can't want to recognize a free vote on same sex marriage and not recognize one on the CWB. Can you? Damn this gets complicated.

Barcs,

What you're talking about is the same manufacturing / transportation to market, etc. problems that any business has. Why is there any reason to believe that we here could not solve these, just as other people have done? Clearly SOMEONE manufactures and transports pasta!

Good comments, Foobius.

It reminds me of the "economists" who maintain that grain farming should be phased out in the prairies (Palliser is usually exhumed to help the argument along)- as though the remaining beef, poultry, hog and other industries that keep food on people's plates would just truck along without consequence.

I guess that's why I can never open a box of Kraft dinner without finding half of it shattered to smithereens.

*sigh*

you've got in Wildrose. And they do it next to large population centers.

Like coke... so most of their product is sold close and they don't have to transport water (water is ubiquitous) over long distances.

That's why you do pulp and paper near forests, thats why you do fish processors near the ocean and neither of those happens or is going to happen in southwest Saskatchewan either.

Mary Jane:

Ever since you dumped Peter Parker, you've become much less interesting.

Most people have been so brainwashed all their lives about the CWB that they don't realize that the so-called "monopoly" Part IV of the Act applies equally to all Canada, and there are no exceptions. Every exporter must have a licence. In the East they are granted, and in the west they are denied. This forces the grain to the CWB.

Strahl is letting us down. All he has to do is order the Board to grant licences to western farmers just as they do for eastern farmers. Without their captive supplies, the CWB would soon be eager to set up a working voluntary system.

Value added on the prairies, very, very good idea.

Question; What percentage of the Canola crop is processed on the prairies ?? ... into cooking oil, margarine ect ??

Japan is a huge buyer of Canadian Canola. What percentage do they buy as already processed oil ?? I beleve it is miniscule. Why ??

Hi Barcs,
The pasta situation is only one of many which speaks to the secondary industries which would be possible if farmers didn't have to buy their grain back from the CWB and was just an example. The operation of the CWB does tend to dampen down any of these types of intiatives. Go just over the border into the US and have a look at what is going no there (not that the situation is exactly the same).

By the way, just checked 3 pasta products in my cupboards anc they were manufacured or at least packaged in: Ontario, Ontario and Quebec.......somebody has been successful at schelping the stuff!

get rid of the CWB and treat ALL farmers equally....I remember golfing with this Supt of schools that had just retired from his Ontario job and I asked him, thinking that being a Supt of Schools he would be a smart guy and have an answer for me cause I never could understand the discrimination, and his response was,Well that is just the way it is" I said what do you mean that isnt an answer, to which he repied,"THAT'S THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN AND THAT'S IT" what the hell kind of snwer is that, what kind of BS treating western farmers diff.than eastern farmers??????????????????????? WHY???

You are not paying attention Wildrose.

I told you where the pasta plants are down east next to population centers, I don't need to look at that box.

My point is not that the product is undesirable. The point is that as an investor in any company I would want the company to have the lowest input costs and more importantly one of the highest profit margin.

That means (just like your box says) that pasta is produced near large population centers down east so that transport costs and transport losses are low.

Not here in Saskatchewan.

Time for Alberta to leave this liberal country - the sooner the better!!!!!

Lessee, canola.

I think Canada crushes about 1/3 of its production. most of the meal and about 2/3 of the oil is exported to the US.

and Japan is less than 2% of our oil market. Meal sales there are negligible.

-----
Look at that we sell most of our product where the transport costs are cheapest. Go figure.

(one more reason why NAFTA is important)

It is usually more economical to manufacture near the raw material. Higher value, less total tonnes, lower freight costs.

For decades the Crow Rate Subsidy made it economical for the processing to be done in Ont, Que. Closer to the population, .... and, of course, the votes.

The Crow was eliminated in 1996. The Prairie Farmers freight cost went up by about a buck a bushel(less in Alberta). The trade-off was to be value added industry on the prairies, actually a good idea. More control over one's product.

To some extent it has happened, (Brooks,Alta slaughters half of all cows, I believe), but there is still a lot of grain shipped to port, at staggering freight rates.

Farmers should strive to be in control of their production, processing, sales. More profitable, more econonical. Don't leave it up to politicians or middlemen.

Pasta Plants: Used to be a Catelli in Lethbridge. Closed now. When the Leth Brewery closed, there was a company that wanted to convert it to
to some kind of processing plant. It was denied by city council. Plant moved to US and is doing great. One female council member, showing her ignorance, said on TV, we do not want trucks with grain driving on our streets. Someone asked her what did she think beer was made from and how did the barley get to the brewery. Another pasta plant was to be built in southern alberta. Public meetings, etc attended by smart looking men in great suits, lots of brouchers etc listing ex. officers, lots of details how investment would double etc. Lots of farmers put up 5000.00/share, some bought more than one. Guess what, it was all a scam. They walked off with all the money, and investors were left out in the cold. We didn't fall for it. Hey, I will build you a pasta plant, hog plant or whatever you want in your community. Just give me all the money up front. Few months after that fiasco, same people arrived in another small town to build an ammunition plant. Guess they didn't realize that the same people attended the meeting, as all small towns know about everything in the next town. Maybe they will show up again and try to get us to invest in the liberals.

I detest the CWB and what it has done to western farmers. Any time that one side of an arguement tries to use scare tactics which essentially amount to "the sky is going to fall down but we can't tell you why" it's mighty suspicious. I'd love to see the CWB books audited before any plebecite because that might change a lot of people's minds. All I hear from the side "for the CWB" is that big multinational companies will come in and steal their profit. It sounds to me like the Libranos "Stephen Harper will destroy the country and all of our treasured Canadian values." or the NDP in SK "Hermanson will sell the crowns." Oh no - not change - it's too scary. It's a terrible thing to lose freedom over your own property because others are afraid that you might do better selling it than they will. Most farmers I know never vote in Wheat Board elections but I know permit book holders who do and they haven't farmed in close to 20 years - they rent out their land (cash rent). The issue is complex if a plebecite is in play - just make it voluntary (but I agree with History that those who choose to sell through the CWB should sign a 3-5 year contract to sell only through them). At least that is more fair than right now. Still would like to see their accounting books though - I'm certain there is some dirty dealing.

Close B. Hoax. Close.

But it depends on other stuff too. Sometimes transport costs are higher for the product than the raw material. ex) Pasta.

Sometimes you have more than one raw material so you are close to one or the other or the market or in the middle. EX) water is ubiquitous, sugar is produced in southern US. So you set up your coca-cola plant near the population centers.

Sometimes other input factors reign. Thats why Aluminum is produced in Quebec and BC from boxite mined around Mexico and southern US. (requires lots of high cost electricity so do it where there is cheap hydro)

And sometimes transport is subsidized one way or the other.

While Ontario and Quebec are big... Globally they are still very small. The crow rate was set up as a subsidy to farmers to ship to port. (Ontario and Quebec also produces more grain than they use.) And a slaughter house has no connection with the crow except that there is more livestock production here to use up some grain rather than ship it to port.

More animals simply means we now have enough to hit the critical mass needed to set up a processing facility.

Canola Growers Ass. data. For 2004

Exported seed .. 3.7 million tonnes
Exported oil ... 0.7 mt

Japan bought 60% of seed exports but only 1% of oil. They would rather the crushing industry be in Japan, I guess.

A previous poster claimed the CWB(gov't) made a deal with other countries on fishing rights. If this is borne out, it shows what political power can do to you.

The govmit has always treated Farmers like mushrooms; keep them in the dark and throw s**t at them!! Blogs will change the first part, at least.

Mary T, same with the Isobord Straw Plant in Elie MB.
Scam from the git-go. Farmers have to do it themselves. As soon as you hear "expert", head for the door.

Definition of expert; "just some fool away from home".

Ever notice on TV/papers ect, they usually refer to their guests as;
"Experts"
"Leading Scientists"
"Professors"
"Top Commentator"
"Senior Reporter"

"Top Commentators", what a joke. The commenters on this Blog, by and large, have got it together better than most CBC/CTV nutbar, so-called guest.

Somewhat OT,

but you gotta check out Dion's latest rant with Jane Taber,

at Stephen Taylor's blog.

Dion calls himself a "hero",

and babbles about saving sea birds.

This guy is not ready for prime time.

Here:

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/archives/000749.html

Manitoba is holding a referendum on the CWB even though this is a federally owned institution.

The lefties may be cutting the CWB's throat.

Alberta farmers will vote for the end of the monopoly if given the chance in my opinion.

I am glad Rosie Wowchuk is sending out these ballots to their producers because the CWB cannot be trusted, which is evident with today's announcement by Dion and Measner.

Day 1: Beaker enters parliament and calls sitting PM a "control freak" and ruling party "far-right".

Day 2: Beaker rattles tax sabre at Alberta's energy industry and newly minted Premier Stelmach.

Day 3: Beaker petulantly digs himself into a big hole over his French citizenship.

Day 4: Beaker pokes a stick in the eye of western grain farmers.

Once he has gassed all the Liberal's chances in the west will he be moving onto other areas of the country for a similar performance?

It's week one and this guy, for Harper, is the gift that just keeps on giving and giving and giving. Pinch me.

That may be so Bart,

but I don't think the sea birds would agree with you.

Don't you see Bart. It's all about the sea birds.

Long time reader... first time poster.

It's been nearly 5 years since I received my last CWB payment. After 20 years of being held hostage by the CWB, I finally had enough and got out. When I started farming in 1981, no one could give me a straight answer as to why I had to sell my wheat and barley to the CWB, other than "thats the law". The fact that this only applied to Western Canada said it all

To me this is not a difficult issue at all. Its a matter of fundimental rights. If all the liability in the production of the commodity is mine, then so should the ability to sell to the highest bidder, whomever and wherever. It's that simple. I don't need left wing political hacks and "all wise" agricultural academics telling me what is best for me. All they do is throw up smoke screens that deflect attention away from the basic issue.

When we get a conservative majority, the CWB as we know it and loath it will gone... When the books are finally opened, the decades of political manipulation and outright fraud and deceit by Liberal governments (Lang, Whelean, et. al.) will make adscam look like a petty theft.

Could this be why the Libs are so concerned over a Western issue?

The CWB was set up to let farmers east of Manitoba the "freedom" to sell into the market at there preference, all the while handcuffing the Western producers. A hangover of "Imperialistic Fantasy" that those in the, Criminally Organized, LPoC want to perpetuate. What should we tell the Lie-beral's too dooo?

Kate, I agree with you - they don't want to open the books. I say "Send in the AG!!!" as in the Auditor General!

"Exported seed .. 3.7 million tonnes"
Canada produces more than 9 billion tonnes.... Japan is obviously a huge market for us.

Here's some real data for you B. Hoax, rather than the grower (special interest) group's numbers.

http://www.canola-council.org/oilmealexports.html
http://www.canola-council.org/acreageyields.html

Bruce, Actually the Act was amended in 1947, and internal documents show that it was to tax exports and imports (with the money going to the government) so that the government could set the price in Canada and farmers would supply cheap wheat to Great Britain (for 4 years) after the war.

Essentially, those sections of the Act remain the same today and they apply equally to all Canada. Its the bureaucrats in Winnipeg that make the difference, not the Act that are abusing the west. But they need the monopoly to hold all those jobs.

John, I call bulls*"t on your assertion that any section of the act was ever intended to benefit Western Canadian farmers, there is no "Equal" application to "ALL" of Canada. Shall we continue on to the dairy sector?

Bruce, I haven't said the licencing Part IV was put in to benefit western farmers. It was put in to benefit the government who had a 4 year agreement with Britain and they didn't want to pay world prices if the price went up.

But its a fact, not a matter of opinion, that Part IV applies equally to all Canada.

Quick! Someone ask Stephane which direction the North Saskatchewan flows.

John, Bull*#it! You're a Lie-beral hack! You can do with "Part IV" what all of you Lie-beral's do!

Good comments Beever. That probably is the only reason the Libs would be interested in a Western Issue. That, and the NEP. Now with Kyoto and Alberta being home to some of Canada's biggest polluters, look out. Dion'll really be out to make a name for himself.

Bruce, you need to understand the enemy. It isn't me.

You can easily go to the CWB Act. You will see that it is composed of separate Parts. Parts II and III apply only to the designated area (AND SAY SO). Part IV is called "REGULATION OF INTERPROVINCIAL AND EXPORT TRADE IN WHEAT"

It applies to all Canada. The words sound extremely tough, until you realize they also apply to Ontario and Quebec.

There are court rulings if you still don't believe.

I know, its quite amazing. We have been lied to for years. The last thing the CWB and Liberals want is for Western farmers to know the truth

Either all citizens have the same freedoms to enjoy property in this country - or we don't. -Kate

I believe the Liberal riposte to this will be some variant of "all citizens are equal, but some citizens are more equal than others."

http:// cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/committee/391/agri/evidence/ev2446409/agriev23-e.htm#Int-1726201

This is the evidence given from one House of Commons' Committee for Agriculture and Agrifood meeting this Oct.

These witnesses wanting to opt out of the CWB have very interesting testimonies...very interesting!

From one of the larger Saskatchewan organic barley producers, Boyd Charles:

"Not one bushel of organic grain that I've sold since 1999 has actually been traded in Canada, except one sale of feed grain to a local organic chicken place near Winnipeg. So all my grain has been shipped to Europe, the United States, or Japan. I buy back every bushel from the Canadian Wheat Board, and I'm here to talk about this ridiculous buy-back feature that organic farmers have to go through.

For example, I bought back 462 tonnes of feed wheat in February--around 15,000 bushels--to ship to a place in the United States. The contract I signed was for a buy-back of $6.92 a tonne. I don't get the final results until the end of the crop year, so I just got a bill in the mail the other day for $11,000. That is a little over three times what the initial contract said. I don't know anybody who can run a business if you don't have any control over the costs.

I just grew a malt variety for an organic maltster in Missouri under contract. It was accepted, and I'm ready to ship 50,000 bushels of malt barley to this organic maltster in Missouri. The trucks are hired, the contract's been signed, and the only thing left to do is buy back the malt barley from the Canadian Wheat Board.

I phoned down for a buy-back and I couldn't believe it. The buy-back on malt barley that day was $2.65 a bushel. That meant I would have had to stroke a cheque to the Canadian Wheat Board for in the neighbourhood of $140,000 if I had bought back my malt barley that day. ....

What disgusts me so much is that they couldn't even buy the grain if I offered it to them. I can't take it near any of their facilities or it would be contaminated. Organic grain has to be shipped in a certified vessel. So even if I offered them the grain they couldn't buy it, at least in the experiences I've had with them.....

They have nothing to do with selling my grain. They have nothing to do with transporting my grain. They didn't find the buyer. I have all the expenses of growing it, yet I have to turn over a dollar a bushel to them just for the privilege of their buying my grain and then selling it back to me...."
>>>>

I will post the comments to do with LICENSING, which will perk many ears, and should, in the next post.

lots of room for fired CWB employees in the Quebec Dairy Industry or the Ontario Liquor Control Board.

and they will feel at home in the faded Dame la Belle Province and her ignoble suitor Ontario.

FREE THE WEST!!!!

KevinB, spot on, Lie-beral's want not , but to enjoy their own(?)property, but to take for themselves the property of all others who do not conform to the Lie-beral way. Why are Lie-beral's so opposed to the idea of having to account for their many transgressions against the Canadian taxpayer. Where is the NINE BILLION DOLLARS that went to the, so called, Private Foundations? Laundered through Haiti perhaps?

You can argue all you want about what section of the Act applies to which area etc. That's just another smokescreen. It means absolutely squat.

Harper and Chuckie simply have to change, repeal, destroy, burn or otherwise render null and void..whatever stands in the way of Western Canadian farmers selling their wheat to the highest bidder. It's that simple. All the studies, expert opinions, fearmongering, Chicken Little impressions etc. are nothing more than feeble attempts to defend the indefensible position, that farmers are being denied a very basic right.

Cal 2, My own feeling is that the top dogs at the CWB, who know what they are doing, first need a little time for reflection.

New poll by Decima puts Lie-beral's four points ahead of the Tories, just like when former PMPM declared the Lie-beral's were on their way to the largest majority in Canadian history. Heh!

Beever. Do you agree that in fighting an enemy as entrenched as the CWB that you need to understand the nature of the beast?

Harper and Chuckie can't simply change the Act because that takes a majority in Parliament. And Gill, Jake and Dionky will use their majority to stop it.

But the point is ... it doesnt require a change in the Act. All it takes is a knowledgeable Minister of the CWB and Cabinet who tell the CWB to grant export licences to western farmers. That's the only benefit all Quebec, Ontario and the Maritime Farmers have ever had, and the Part IV "so-called monopoly" that applies to them has not been any problem. This isn't rocket science, but when you have been lied to for 60 plus years its a shocker.

My original post on the Oct 26th,2006 meeting of the Agriculture Committee on the CWB got held up in the filter, but it will come eventually.

It included the evidence from one organic barley farmer from Saskatchewan, and is worth reading for how they are dealt with when selling their product.

But some posters have already been honing in on the licensing issue and it is worth a serious look!

I will post here the evidence given by another Sask organic farmer, and what she had to say about the *discrepencies* from farmer to farmer in Canada. Discrimination...you bet!

Note: ****'s are my highlighting

Ms. Carole Husband: "... The second duty of the Canadian Wheat Board is national licensing, in part IV. Licensing equally applies to all of Canada, just as the Canada Elections Act applies equally to all of Canada. All grain moving both interprovincially and for export is subject to having a licence. There are no exceptions, as Boyd found out, and only the Wheat Board can issue a licence.

When part IV was added as an amendment in 1947, it appears from access to information documents that it was intended to be a national tariff or export taxing provision, with the taxes to be paid to the government and costs paid by the government.....and because of NAFTA the export tax is presently zero dollars.

**However, there is an almost unknown Canadian Wheat Board policy in play that has a different effect upon farmers in different provinces.***

Jean-Pierre lives in Quebec, and markets feed barley into the U.S.A. He gets the necessary Wheat Board export permit and licence and trucks south. Jim, in Alberta, also wants to sell his barley and applies for an export licence. The Wheat Board denies him. The Wheat Board's policy is to deny all designated area applications, so that Jim cannot bypass the Wheat Board as Jean-Pierre does. With no buyer other than an eager Wheat Board, Jim can eat his load of grain or burn it. He ends up selling to the board, which is no escape from the Canadian Wheat Board's policy monopoly. Any grain sold to the Wheat Board becomes board grain. A refusal under the national part IV, which is the licensing part, assures the Wheat Board monopoly buying under part III.

****I am always shocked that the Wheat Board bases their monopoly authority upon licensing denial. If the elected Wheat Board directors, stacked with westerners, got ornery and denied all export licences to Quebec and Ontario, the Wheat Board could sell western grain into eastern producers' established markets and all MPs would pay a little bit closer attention to national licensing and licensing denials.***

***The Wheat Board Act is not an act of prohibition. I should go back and say that even though part IV licences should be equally issued to all Canadians, they are not. The Wheat Board backroom boys, swearing by their policy authority, continue to deny licences just because we live in the west, and this is discrimination.***

****I have a hunch you didn't know the Wheat Board quietly issues export licences to different categories of applicants who have successfully negotiated with the board to bypass the monopoly.****

****This unadvertised internal policy allows the following groups —that we know of—to bypass the board's marketing and pooling: one, all wheat or barley grown outside the designated area; two, pedigreed seed wheat and barley grown in the designated area; three, the specialty wheat varieties commonly known as spelt, kamut, and einkorn grown in the designated area; four, processed wheat and barley grown in the designated area and used for feed purposes under the Export Manufactured Feed Agreement, amounting to millions of bushels; five, wheat and barley grown in the Creston-Wynndel region, which were granted licences prior to 1998, when that region was still included in the designated area; and six, Ethiopian barley.***

My husband and I are privileged that the Wheat Board issues export licences to us for our Ethiopian barley so we can personally bypass Wheat Board marketing and pooling. We just sold another load this fall without doing the buy-back, and received over $8 a bushel. We have another unregistered variety of barley, but the Wheat Board won't issue an export licence for that one.

**** Under the watch of the last government, western farmers were charged for not having export permits and were put in jail.***

These farmers lived in the designated area where export licences were automatically denied. Licence denial is the policy tool the Wheat Board uses to create its monopoly in western Canada.

These are my recommendations:

*****First, the Governor in Council can and must order the Wheat Board to issue export permits to western farmers, just as it does for eastern farmers.******
The Wheat Board will continue to buy and pool the grain for those farmers who choose the board as their marketing agent, just as it does now. Because the act does not have to be changed, the relief from the monopoly can be immediate for those who want to bypass the board, just as it is for us. This relief has been provided for many other applicants in the six categories I just named. All of them bypassed the board because they wanted to, and all were able to because the Wheat Board has willingly revised its policy to accommodate each category. Those asking for a western plebiscite on who gets national export licences are about as credible as men asking for a plebiscite in 1929 to decide whether or not women could have a ballot.

Second, the government must order the Wheat Board to obey its legislation and stop taking money out of the pooling accounts to pay for national licensing. Millions of dollars have been taken out of western pooling accounts for national licensing costs, even though they are supposed to be paid for by the federal government.

Third, the federal government can and must pay back the money taken out of the pooling accounts to pay all national licensing costs of part IV of the Canadian Wheat Board Act.

This is what westerners are paying for: the cost of issuing all provincial, interprovincial, and export licences; all administrative costs relating to the granting and denial of licences; all administrative costs of the big feed mills right across Canada under the Export Manufactured Feed Agreement; all compliance costs of licensing, including working with Canada customs and inspections; all Wheat Board costs relating to importing; and all costs of external and internal meetings and correspondence relating to part IV and other parts.

Recovered licensing costs, even for a ten-year period, will boost the pooling accounts. I realize that Ontario and Quebec are sitting pretty and don't pay either way, so we ask for your support to shift licensing costs from the west onto the federal government. The Wheat Board itself should have sent a licensing bill to the government, but it appears to have grown accustomed to playing fast and easy with the western pooling accounts. Under the watch of the previous Liberal government's Wheat Board minister, the Wheat Board took money out of the western pooling accounts to pay for $400-per-plate dinners for directors and staff to attend Liberal fundraisers."

John...
Agreed... Issueing export licenses would be a start... but the conservatives cannot do anything substantive until a majority is gained. I fear that doing anything in a minority situation that would allow limited marketing freedom short of killing the act in full, would only fuel the fires of the left wingers. If the Libs regained power, they would most certainly expand and entrench the power and influence of the CWB.

I feel that a straight forward question and vote on barley by those who have delivered on average over the last 3 years, an amount equal or greater than 160 acres of production would settle the issue for that grain. There would be a great wailing in the land that this was unfair to small farmers, but in reality, can you really call production that low a viable farm with the expectation of making a profit? That would be enough for a minority gov. to handle. and would be difficult for a Lib. gov. to reverse.

Wheat will only be able to be accomplished by a majority government.

Time to repeal NAFTA and get ourselves out of the UN and drive out the BUILDERBURGS and CFR

Beever, Even if you give me permission to vote on how you market your grain, you don't get to vote on my marketing.

As for nothing can be done....do you want more than eastern farmers already have? Its there, simply by the granting of a licence.

''As you're really a one trick pony here, it's useful to put your complaints about subsidies in the appropriate context.''

Excuse me but the context is about choice and the right to one's property, is it not? If the argument is valid for the farmer, it should be valid for the wage earner.
And there is always the sub-context around here of the what's good for the conservative goose ain't necessarily good for the liberal gander double standard, the tolerance of socialism for groups and programs conservatives like and the prescription of the hard discipline of the marketplace for groups and programs conservatives don't like.

Kate, if we were looking at, say, Indians crossing borders and engaging in tobacco trade illegally instead of hard-working western farmers doing the same thing, would you feel differently about it? If we disagree with the way things are being done, and with the law, is it okay for us to flout that law? I'm not asking about the merits of the CWB - I'm asking whether you advocate breaking the law here. I do think it opens a large can of worms.

On top of that, the link you provide ("Alberta Farmers Jailed...") is to a CBC page. Do you reckon that's credible?

Yup "Alberta Farmers Jailed" is correct and credible. Tho I think all were granted bail and the charges eventually thrown out because of a missed procedural technicality on the part of the border guards.

I have been waiting for someone to ask that question crabgrass. :)

Why would people start in a course of action knowing full well the environment and the law surrounding it. And then after dealing with the legal situation declare that the law is unfair.

I understand that sometimes things need to be changed, and this is one way of going about it. but I watch it over and over again.

You cannot honestly tell me they got into the farming business 40 years ago not to farm but to fight for the rights of the individual?? lmao

CWB
Same sex marriage
Marajuna
Speeding
Drinking and driving

They strike me as children told not to do something and then whine or are pissed off at the authorities when they are punished for doing it.

Next on my list of stupid questions.

It infringes on your choice of how to market your grain by a democratic vote for the wheatboard..... Why doesn't infringe on my marketing choice and my rights when you want to take away the choice I have made for marketing my grain??

(and you can't use Sasktel as an example of a monopoly with competition since they have only had real competition from a single competitor for 2 weeks now. Did you know 1200 people switched in the first 4 days. That is one every 2 mins during business hours.)

Crabgrass, those farmers were arrested for flouting the law, as you say!

Some had farm equipment confiscated for donating as little as a bushel of grain to a 4-H group in Montana, as they deliberately set about showing how ugly the inequality is right here in Canada.

They, and their families, paid a high price to challenge the law that gives uneven treatment to farmers across this country.

Frankly, that was some gall to throw in the comparison you attempted.

It is particularly distasteful that something so keenly felt by so many on this board, is being compared to your example.

But go ahead, try to make those dudes look sympathetic for selling cross border, illegally, a product subject to tax, for all but those of another race.

Until then, this is one time when farmers here in The West deserve an honest listen.

And Kate will have her own explanation, but until she comes with a better one, shame on you for missing the respect many here feel for our farmers!

And may Dion learn what it is to come against the people of the land, our farmers, out here in The West!

"shame on you for missing the respect many here feel for our farmers!"'

Not seein' it here.

This is a debate on ideology for the most part. The bulk of the people here have some reading to do (policy, law, history, ramifications, basic economics, geographic theroy, etc) if they want an intelligent debate with the respect due both sides (and yeah as always that includes me too)

For example, this has far reaching consequences that this person is not considering... it just sounds good to their point of view:
"Time to repeal NAFTA and get ourselves out of the UN and drive out the BUILDERBURGS and CFR"

"It infringes on your choice of how to market your grain by a democratic vote for the wheatboard..... Why doesn't infringe on my marketing choice and my rights when you want to take away the choice I have made for marketing my grain??"

To resolve the current disparity the wheat board does not need to be dismantled, use of it simply needs to be made optional. Those who think the CWB meets their needs can continue to use it, those who don't can go elsewhere. If the numbers quoted earlier are accurate and a majority of farmers prefer the CWB it will continue to be a major player.

Denis that would be perfect. However Barcs demands MY grain to be added to his because he thinks it gives him a price advantage. It dosen't matter what I think. Typical Socialist.

I wonder how Ont would react if the the auto industry had to sell all the cars and parts they manufacture to the Cdn Auto Board, and then turn around and buy them back so they could export them. Of course these cars would never leave the factory before export. And, the price they received for the cars would be set by the CAB and also the price they have to pay to buy them back would also be set. Of course they would have to do the same thing for all cars and parts sold in Canada. On top of that, they would have to fill our forms telling the CAB how many cars of each model they would produce in a production year. Then, at some time in the future they would be given permission to sell x number of cars of x model. The rest must sit in storage until they get permission to sell another set amount. The CWB worked sort of ok until they brought in the Quota system. A 640 acre (1 section) farm could provide a reasonable living for a family. When the quota system meant you could only sell x/bushes/acre, the end was in sight. Most farmers farmed half and half. So, you seeded 320 acres to wheat, barley or whatever. A good crop (in our area=25-35b/ac) meant about 8000 bushels that one could sell at one time, if there were rail cars. At about 1.00/b that was a lot of money 50 yrs ago. You paid your debts and lived very frugally the rest of the year. Then the quota system come in, and the CWB would tell you how many bus/ac you could sell at the initial price. Thru out the year there were interm pymts and eventually a final payment. I remember yrs when we were allowed to sell 200 bushels in Sept and not another quota for 6 mos. Within a very short time the need was for more acres so the small farmer was bought out, then the medium farmer was bought out, to get more acres. Farmers rented out their land, usually for 1/3 of the crop. Of course imput costs kept going up, the crow rate was abolished, and the CWB still told us how they were working for us. Most farmers had cows and hogs, to supplement the grain income. Oh, wait, the packing plants decided that it was uneconomical to have farmers takes hogs and cattle to the railyards in the small towns. Now we had to haul them to a centralized location. Added cost, larger trucks etc. End of production on many farms. Packing plants could not get the numbers of hogs and cattle to meet production and closed. It is a vicious circle, but farmers have prevailed, to feed those eastern liberals at very low cost. Just remember, for every action there is an opposite reaction and that is what liberals refuse to accept. There are still enough past farmers around who remember these things, and also the NEP, so Dion, don't expect seats in Alberta, and not too many in Sask or Manitoba. BC is lotus land and full of leftist kooks so they may vote liberal out of spite, not intelligence.

It appears we have a new liberano troll full of BS and tripe. He sounds good but refuses to acknowledge the fact that if its mine its not yours.

It doesnt matter if 99% vote for the CWB, if its MINE, its MINE and i will sell it to whomever I chose.

Sorry Denis, there is no such thing as a Dual market. There is a CWB or there is a open market in which the CWB is just another Agricore or Cargill. The pool system might still exist in the company but without the monopoly clout it currently enjoys you lose the pricing advantage. What would be the point of selling there.

"It appears we have a new liberano troll full of BS and tripe. He sounds good but refuses to acknowledge the fact that if its mine its not yours."

You see what I mean about an ideological debate rather than one on the merits of the CWB?? Its funny. Everywhere else I am considered a Neo-con, How am I a liberal troll here?

"No such thing as a Dual market" is CWB propaganda. These are the people who say in Canadian Courts that the CWB is only accountable to Parliament and have no accountability to farmers; and then internationally they claim they are just a farmers co-op, accountable only to farmers and not the federal government.

Regarding the NAFTA issue - could the CWB be brought back in? Dion's statement appears to be at odds with what the CWB has said in the past, that once gone, the monopoly can't be brought back.

It is true that Chapter 11 of NAFTA allows foreign companies to sue for compensation for expropriation of their businesses. But again its important to understand how the CWB works. The only expropriation engaged in by the CWB is of prairie farmer's grain, (by the denial of export licences).

If there was an open market, and then a return of the beast (CWB), NAFTA would require that the CWB could not steal the grain that the companies had bought from farmers during the free market period, and instead would have to pay fair market value to the companies for that grain. Other than that it would then be back to business as usual - the CWB again expropriating prairie farmers grain.

For the companies, they would continue to handle and buy prairie grain. CWB grains are their easy
money.

The CWB only says the CWB can't be brought back as a scare tactic. When it suits them, they will say the opposite.

Freedom of choice seems only to apply to women wanting an abortion. The list of freedoms we once had is very long. Soon we will not have the freedom to choose our religion, it will be imposed on us by the muslims or we will be beheaded. All farmers want is the same freedom to choose how and where to sell their grain that a pregnant woman has to kill her child.

Barcs:

What price advantage. No proof exists that the CWB extracts a better price for Western Canadian Grain Farmers. If you have some please provide it. In any event it does not matter. NO ONE should have the right to make me sell my property to a buyer that I do not choose, better price or not. Barcs and CWB supporters can't understand this. The CWB is dying. It may be a slow death, but it's dead. If the Federal Government won't make the necessary changes, Alberta will allow it's farmers market choice.

John, try CH 3, 15 and 20. You can still set up a monopoly but it cannot be anti-competitive. (i.e. the other partys may choose to use it, or buy from it at market. The CWB is anticompetitive in many ways.

Why is the other sides opinion "propaganda" but your sides opinion isn't??

Rules or law of any kind is limiting on some peoples freedoms Mary. In a world of finite possibilities by definition you cannot make someone better off without making someone worse off. Every law limits someone somehow.

http://www.commerce.senate.gov/hearings/041902rogowsky.pdf
And a bunch of others. Every US challenge to the CWB dumping grain has eventually resulted in a decision for Canada. Nearly every time a study is done by US governments or universitys comparing Canada and US contract prices. Canada is nearly always higher in every category. (But we sell to a gov organization that is inefficient in wages instead of a bunch of companies in the market to make money for their investors rather then customers.)

"Freedom of choice seems only to apply to women wanting an abortion"

A Nice Slogan:

Abort the Wheatboard. Canadian Farm women demand their right to choose.

MaryT: "Soon we will not have the freedom to choose our religion, it will be imposed on us by Muslims or we will be beheaded."

Holy crap, MaryT, I hadn't heard about this. Is this something that Harper has quietly passed? When are the Muslim folks scheduled to take over?

Finally getting back to this very interesting discussion - I do have a life.

And Barcs, you were right - I'm Not paying attention to you! Defeatism is not my shtick.

It has been my experience that "experts" can poke holes in any ideas, but those who become successful in business are the ones who find solutions, not just problems.

Crabgrass; hA hA, ARE YOU TRYING TO BE FUNNY? If you are not aware that the muslim religion of terror is slowly taking over by their demanding rights, (no men in fitness gyms with women, no men in birthing classes, and dozens of more rights, and the latest edit in Somalia that muslims and others that don't pray 5 times/day will be beheaded, no men allowed to watch female muslim playing BB etc, you have been sleeping for a long time. Hopefully some prince (not dion) will kiss you and wake you up. Cdns have given up so many rights rather than fight and be called racist or a bigot. In other words we have cut and run from reality. When the PM of Iran says convert or die. Pay attention, our liberal left kooks will allow all this to happen. They almost had sharia law in Ont under McGs watch. The msm and liberals are the ones decrying christianity, not Harper. If the dionistas ever get back in power, watch for compulsory respect for muslims. Read the article from some stats/can idiot suggesting that a clown or other person replace Santa at Christmas Parties. TO ALL MUSLIMS, MERRY CHRISTMAS.

We should get rid of the CWB the smart ass farmers think they don't need. They don't deserve it. If they think the subsidized American farmers are going to let Canadians compete directly in their markets they are mistaken. And when the USA is glad we're getting rid the CWB that should tell you something. I just hope after the CWB is gone and when grain prices hit the floor the farmers don't come whinning to us taxpayers for a handout. But get rid of it anyway farmers are fartsmellers they know what their doing.

Barcs, I agree with your statement: "Every US challenge to the CWB dumping grain has eventually resulted in a decision for Canada."

But as you say, the challenges have always been about CWB buying and selling grain grown in the designated area, and no consideration has been given by the Americans to the grain that the CWB doesn't market but still regulates by the licencing Part IV of the CWB Act. In particular there is feed wheat and feed barley grown in the designated area. These grains trade freely as "off-board" in all Canada outside of the CWB monopoly.

However, the policy of the CWB is to deny any exports of "off-board" feed wheat and barley.

So what does this mean? Well it means that all Canadian livestock feeders have access to feed grain that all American livestock feeders can't access. And since this violates Article 309 of NAFTA, the CWB is putting the entire Canadian livestock industry at risk of U.S. challenge of countervale. For example, R-CALF is just looking for a way to stop Canadian Beef at the border.

John. A good example of one of the ways the CWB contravenes NAFTA. And why it will never come back if it is dismantled. Today tho. Its a "maintained" State Trading Enterprise rather than a new STE. The rules are not quite the same.

Mary has a good example too. Whose rights are being curtailed by the rules/law??? Ours, or theirs??

You farmers deserve to go broke. You have no idea what getting rid of CWB will do to you so why don't you admit it.

Actually. I do have an idea what it will do to my farming business.

In the context of my farm it is essentially a wash. Some of my neighbours would benefit from an open market, but the vast majority would not.

(Joys of writing university papers)

In my opinion the CWB makes me a small amount of money as compared to the open market. The difference is the amount of work necessary to market my grain. While I spend thousands in time and building business relationships with my non-board crops(about 1/2 my production), with the CWB it is essentially none unless I use their marketing options.

Barcs, Article 1503 states:
"1. Nothing in this agreement shall be construed to prevent a Party from maintaining or establishing a state enterprise."

To me that seems pretty clear, but you can have your own interpretation.

Are you aware that section 61.1 of the CWB Act right now requires the CWB to comply with NAFTA? There is no free pass because it is a "maintained" STE.

Does it not concern you that CWB bureaucrats are placing Canadian livestock feeders at countervale risk?

I told you that you can maintain or establish STE's. You just have to comply with several rules against anti-competitiveness. Section 15-02.2 and .3

(which the CWB doesn't always do)

The CWB act requiring itself to be compliant with NAFTA act is not the same as NAFTA requiring the CWB to be compliant. (There is no penalty or judgments from outside the organization.)

Its not a free pass, but the rules aren't quite the same.

Glenardo, thank-you for the very interesting information re the trade-offs with wheat. A few years ago I read about tons and tons of wheat from Canada, left to rot on Steamships, in USSR..Turdo sent it there..I am not making this up...
The thing is Glenardo, I knew that the WB was running hundreds of prairie farmers out of business - in Sask the culvert they have for a premier has dreams of making Sask. one big collective farm so a single desk would be selling the wheat of a sole producer - the province of Sask - Get rid of that monster right away people of Sask. The culvert is not harmless. The culvert was in Ottawa today - was he talking to Liberano$/Dippers or to PMSH?

I digress...I had no idea that that little game you describe was going on Glenardo - what 'game' was going on with the oil for food folks (we all know WHO they are!) and Saddam (and China??) using Canadian wheat to broker deals?? Hummm?

Kate you have put the answer to the question on the table - Let us proceed to open the books. DEMAND to open the books. Be loud and don't stop demanding that those books go directly to the AG at once, then re look at the viability of the WB. Don't ask DEMAND. I am sending a letter to the related MP'S, How about an on-line petition? I don't know how to do that but maybe someone here does - I'd sign it and direct lots of others to do the same. Easter bunny has to be held to account. Bounce directly to jail bunny Easter.

The weblog awards voting is open. Vote for SDA in The Best Canadian Blog category. Make Saskatchewan proud and besides kate is the best.Just click on the Weblog awards finalist at the top left.

Tell your Tories to open the books. In Alberta they have squandered billions. Where did the billions go? To farmers? Politicians?Taxpayers? Big Buisness? You answer that and we'll both know.
The wheatboard should go but any farmer who loses too much money on the open market should go cry to someone else besides us taxpayers. Most farmers don't know what will happen. I know a lot will lose that's the way the open market works. The US gov't tells farmers what to grow in order to get the subsidy. 300,000,000 pay for 1,000,000 farmers. We have 34 million and eastern Canada won't pay for western farmers and we can't do it ourselves.

Hey Mary T. I like your analogy about the abortion thing. Can't u just imagine the howling if the girls in the west were allowed abortions and the ones in the east weren't?

btw. i'm not in favor of abortion but it's a good analogy.

Same thing with the wb. if it's not compulsory in the east, then it's not in the west either.
Like i've said before, i sell canola flax peas mustard canary oats non board all the time and have for years and i'm still here, and i wouldn't want it any other way. I don't hit the top all the time but you can't tell me the wb does either. And in alot of case's i think they hit the bottom! and charge me to do it!

i'm also tired of evertime someone goes on strike between the farm gate and port we pay the bill (out of the pool account) and now it looks like i have to pay to protect someones cushy job in the cwb over a court challenge....nobody asked me if i wanted to do that either! I say edie'os amigo's cwb and if you don't want to pay me to feed people, then i will feed birds....most of the time they pay better anyway. I heard the other day the u.s. spends billions on pet food
every year.

Merry Christmas all
Remember the reason for the season is Jesus, he died for you and me.

Well its just like what AL GORE wanted to do when he was running in 2000 he told a member of the FFA to find anew profession becuase he was going to shut down all farming in america and have us get our food from 3rd world nations which make GORE and extremists gaia worshipping pagan eco-freak