Probably best to use this for leadership results post mortems.
Yesterday's threads - Alberta PC and Liberal Party of Canada are getting so large they're cumbersome to load.
Request - if someone can track down an audio clip of Mr. Dion's response to a reporter's question on squaring Kyoto with the Alberta oilsands;
"If we ken find.... sustenible development..."
I've pointed it out once already - this man has the makings of a "sustenible" drinking game!
Posted by Kate at December 3, 2006 10:44 AMOther than being a Liberal, and voting for whoever leads the Liberal party, can anyone here think of a single compelling thing about Dion (no "he's not Harper"s)that would prompt Canadians to vote for him.
Specifically, no mushy vague stuff. I'd be interested to hear, cuz I can't think of one.
Posted by: mitch at December 3, 2006 11:19 AMAnd further:
Will Stelmach have the cojones to take on central Canadian liberals in defense of Alberta?
Posted by: Mad Mike at December 3, 2006 11:22 AMThe most "single compelling thing" about Dion?
In the great Canadian search for the "safe middle ground", Dion was/is seen as the most "safe".
What do we expect from an electorate that glorifies safety...And, perforce, mediocrity...Central Canadian (L)liberals now have their ideal symbolic figurehead.
A question that comes to mind: Is Dion one of Powercorps' boys? Hmmmm...
Posted by: Mad Mike at December 3, 2006 11:32 AMnew liberals!
http://www.ctv.ca/gallery/html/liberal_day_four_20061202/photo_4.html
hahahaha
It's a sombre rite of passage for aspirants to Liberal Party greatness... the dark moment when you sell your soul to the devil.
Posted by: neo at December 3, 2006 11:41 AMDion will give the store away to appease Qwee-beck and Stalmach will prove to be another Harry Strom, whereby he will be the last P.C. Premier of Alberta.
A new Conservative movement will form and the Klien revolution will fade to black. Morton lost becase he was a long shot. Something many of us refused to believe. Personally I think Dinning never stopped to think that a half generation of Albertans have been raised or moved here and never heard of him before, or didn't know much about him.
While Stalmach is, I believe, a good man, he's a bit awkward and unpolished and that may lead to the restlessness that Mr. Strom & Co. faced when the party of Ernest Manning was carried into history by the prairie winds of change. (how's that for poetry? heh!)
As a long-shot musing, should the Liberals return to power and Iggy's carbon tax come to fruition, Stelmach would roll over and reach for the petroleum jelly, just as Lougheed did because he wouldn't want to tarnish his nice guy image. (Lougheed simply buckled to Trudeau and was the weak horse of the two).
Personally I wanted Morton. Someone who wouldn't be afraid to say "from my cold, dead hands". We didn't want a metrosexual like Dinning (or federally Iggy for that matter)
The "consensus builder" that everyone sees in Stalmach will only guarantee that the status quo will prevail. Money will be thrown from one crisis to the next, MRI waiting lists will still be there and more white crosses adorned with hard hats will appear in the ditches of rural Alberta because the twinning of highway 63 will be shelved for yet another generation.
Posted by: Eskimo at December 3, 2006 11:44 AMFirst let me say that SDA has done a thousand times better job covering this than the MSM, who where in a liberal stupor the other day. Even in the Province, the MSM did nothing to inform us. Thank God for Blogs like this, with the people willing to express themselves & get timely information out. Great job Kate. What an indictment on our hallowed media, that they did not have enough time for even a passing interest. Shame, & double shame on them.
Last night Alberta voted in another liberal in sheep’s clothing. This reminds me of what happened to the Social credit party. They voted in Harry Strom. That was game over for them. Now we have someone worse than Don Getty . I think its time to say adios to the Liberal red Conservative party of Alberta.
I will embrace another party. One that will end up smashing this joke of a party to bits. As is the historical precedent for ignoring change. If not for Ralph it would have happened years ago to this long in the tooth bunch.
Now we know there true leanings ,there as good as gone in the next election. I will never vote Tory in this Province again. Not sour grapes, just disgust at the whimpering candidate that was chosen, so no waves would be made. That all the political players would still have there plunder.
There prize will be a first class rush to political pariah Dom. Does no one read history?
Goodbye Conservative party. It was nice while it lasted. You have become an old diseased tart, with no vision but to keep enriching those sectors who have supported you, in your fornication of this Provinces monies, to business & other interests. The reckoning will begin. Getty was so loathed he lost his own seat.
Now there will be no democratic reform. No standing up to Ottawa for our individual rights. The rape of Alberta will begin when Harper is defeated by the same minded fools out East. In the name of millennial global warming. Another Y2K scam. This character will just let them con him while steamrolling over the Albertan public. He will be given awards & talked to nicely while the Ottawa Mandarins laugh at his naivety.
Time Alberta to leave, is the most prudent course . Before where economically, & socially devastated by the crooks out East, with there bought bedfellows like Ed Stelmach. It does not look good for us. Hopefully a real party with new ideas will have sprung up by next election. Hopefully we will not have been raided before that.
We are in for a long bumpy road with a jellyfish in charge. With absolutely no plan or course of action but the same stumbling about blind, like we have had for years now. It disturbs me that the candidate with absolutely no ideas gets the nod. Incredible. Give yourself a good shake Alberta.
You just killed the golden goose.
Posted by: Revnant Dream at December 3, 2006 11:50 AMThe provovative question about Stephan Dion....
Are Canadians ready for a gay Prime Minister? That is the bottom line and the one thing the MSM dare not discuss.
Opinions?
Posted by: Odie441 at December 3, 2006 11:54 AMThe provocative question about Stephan Dion....
Are Canadians ready for a gay Prime Minister? That is the bottom line and the one thing the MSM dare not discuss.
Opinions?
Posted by: Odie441 at December 3, 2006 11:54 AMSorry for the double post. Still early and only on my first cup.
Posted by: odie441 at December 3, 2006 11:55 AMMorton will have to have a prominent place in Eds government, and will not be afraid to bring his ideas forward. Ed must know he is on shaky ground, to ignore Ted and his supporters will be suicide for the PCs next election. The good news is that the Alliance will benefit and not the liberals. They are asking what happened to dinning-his donation to martin didn't help, and he has the same problem joe who had with his wife. Might be old fashioned but we want our premiers or PMs wife to take their husbands name.
At least with over 144,000 voting, and many of them new members, the PC coffers are overflowing. Another thing against Dinning was his work behind the scenes to oust Klein, sort of like Martin did to Chretain. Yesterday a majority of everyday cdns started to take back their country, with Dion and Ed elected. The question is, will the backroom boys, power corp and others get the message. We will see. Dion will never be PM of Canada with a majority govt. Wonder if Iggy and Dinning are having a beer together with a crying towel for all the tears. Who will they blame for their loss. A lot of "what ifs and if onlys" going around today. And, remember, Ed could not have won without Mortons second choice, and he better get that message loud and clear. Policy and actions will win from now on, not your name.
Thanks Kate for opening up your site for the leadership race, both pre, during, and post voting day.
I have to say I was most disappointed in the Calgary based Western Standard in terms of how little was contributed both pre and during. Maybe the post will surprise!
Posted by: calgary clipper at December 3, 2006 12:01 PMAs I mentioned here over a month ago, don't forget Stelmach, he's the dark horse. He is a quiet strong type that will probably stand up to Ottawa more than Kline ever did. More than that he will not come out and say dumb things about health care at the most inopportune times.
The one thing that was completely over looked is the division within the Alberta conservative party, not strong ones but there and enough to make a difference. The rural urban split and the urban north south division. The rural faction for the most part sticking together but the north south urban split being the difference.
Although Klein was from the “South” the “North” had the insider control with Elzinga and Shields. It will be interesting to see where Stelmach’s point man is from.
Federally my question is, will Dion renounce his French citizenship befor the next election?
Posted by: Joe Molnar at December 3, 2006 12:06 PMThe provinces often talk about a fiscal imbalance - how about electoral imbalance. According to Statscan as of July 06 there are more people living in BC and Alberta (7,686,215) than Quebec (7,651,531) yet Quebec has 75 seats and BC & Alberta only 64. Should we in the west not have the same number of seats and should it not be time for the political parties to suck up to the west as much as they suck up to Quebec? How about 4 prime ministers in a row from Alberta instead of Quebec?
Posted by: Fritz at December 3, 2006 12:07 PMDion is Chretien's man; Chretien, aka the Accidental Librano$.
Chretien had a mole inside the counting house.
Who's da boss? Chretien the Black Spider.
Da proof is da ... proven.
Librano$ own the Liberal Party.
Plus ca change, ...-
Chrétien the first to know
Dec. 3, 2006. 01:00 AM
Liberals ARE better at leaks ...
Former prime minister Jean Chrétien may have accidentally given journalists a heads-up on the looming vote result at the Liberal convention.
As the CBC's Susan Bonner reported, Chrétien was being trailed by journalists after the fourth ballot when he consulted his BlackBerry and suddenly became very interested in one particular message. He crouched down and stared closely at the words on the tiny screen, then drew his wife, Aline Chrétien, near to him, apparently sharing what he'd read. Journalists watched her mouth the name: Stéphane Dion.
Chrétien tried to deflect the journalists' attention with a few jokes. Then Dion did indeed win. Remember: you heard it from Chrétien first.
(red star)
@ Revnant Dream at December 3, 2006 11:50 AM
What you said ~ standing ovation!
Things have to get worse before they get better.
Remember; Ralph was, is, and ever more shall be a liberal.
"It's Friday ~ Sunday's coming." ~Tony Campolo (Christian reference)
Questions in the msm today when talking about yesterdays results in Montreal. Will the environment be the ballot question next election. I say NO. It is a false feel good issue. When voters realize that the changes to their lifestyle implementing kyoto would bring they will wake up. It is more than another NEP. What are you willing to give up to bring your emmissions 12% below 1990 levels. Bet you still take that vacation by car or plane. Bet you still want to use your computer, furnace, hotwater etc. Bet you still want you job in manufacturing. And I am still waiting, after years of questioning, how sending millions to china via MO Strong, to buy their credits will reduce emmissions in Canada. Poor Mo, his nephew lost yesterday.
Posted by: maryT at December 3, 2006 12:20 PMRiding results: (http://www.leaptv.com/results.html)
Stelmach's second choices: Morton 25813, Dinning 4277. I think tha's really interesting. I would have bet reverse or 50-50. 10938 - no choice
Posted by: Cheri at December 3, 2006 12:25 PMDion reminds me of a kindly old professor (well, he is one, after all). That is what they will build on. Kind, caring, green, politically "nuanced", etc. with Harper and the Conservatives cast as hard-hearted, cold, impersonal, uncaring, owned by the "oil barons", etc.
Is he gay? I don't really care, it doesn't really make a difference anymore...just curious.
He will learn that he will have to give up his dual citizenship to attain the top spot...the Conservatives would use this as a big stick to clobber him with, so he'll have to take that weapon out of their hands. The Conservatives are going to have to say that it is only a "piece of paper that he's burned, not the bridge" to France and try to make it stick. Needless to say, the MSM will not carry that for them.
I see the Liberals as starting from a position of weakness on this and they will have to defend from the get-go. He is part of the old guard, was in cabinet through all the scandals, he was environmental minister while GHG's kept increasing, he is ANOTHER QUEBECER vying for PM (enough already! and I think this is what "ordinary" Canadians will think...and the Conservatives have to keep hammering that one home quietly), he is "Mr. Anything But" (another point to keep hammering home...no one's first choice, just the best of a bad lot), etc.
Handled correctly, the Conservatives can push the Liberals down further, but they need to get started NOW! Just like during the election when they came out with an announcement every week...they need to come out with monthly (?) announcements of more uncovered Liberal misdeeds or starts of investigations or starts of lawsuits. They need to remind the electorate of the Liberal corruption on a regular basis to keep it fresh in their mind.
I hope our boys and girls in Ottawa are listening...things have been too quiet for too long. Heck, even Gomery is wondering what's happening! Come on...more bad news about the Liberals record is needed...and regularly. The Conservatives are giving us good news in terms of tax breaks, et al, but we need the negative reinforcement of the Liberals too.
As for Alberta, being an Ontarian, I can't say...Stelmach is a nice guy and hopefully not stupid. Surely he's smart enough to bring Morton in to a high ranking position...then maybe you can have the best of both worlds. For all the good that Kleine may have done, he was continuously exposed in the media as a "redneck" and that sure didn't help Alberta's image...maybe nice guy Ed, backed up with solid Ted, can be a good one-two punch (good cop, bad cop?). Don't despair...despair is what Ontario Conservatives should be feeling, not Albertans.
Posted by: Eeyore at December 3, 2006 12:38 PMIgnore my last plesae. Not enough sleep.
Posted by: Cheri at December 3, 2006 12:40 PMOdie441 posted:
"The provovative question about Stephan Dion....
Are Canadians ready for a gay Prime Minister? That is the bottom line and the one thing the MSM dare not discuss.
Opinions?"
I've never heard any suggestion that Dion is gay. Are you sure you're not confusing him with Pierre Pettigrew, the CabMin who took his chauffeur to Paris?
Posted by: Bruce at December 3, 2006 12:44 PMLook tomorrow for all the national media to condemn Dion because he doesn't speak English, as they would if an English Prime Minister couldnt speak French. Hardy har har har.
With Stelmach we didnt win but I dont think we lost either. He is no Ted Morton for sure, but then again he will not be suckin up to the power establishment down east as Dinning would.
With Ted Morton losing I expect all the gay activists have loosened their sphincter muscles today, and can carry on with their activities.
And what the fuck, life goes on.
Like Calgary Clipper, I too I am most disappointed in the Calgary based Western Standard in terms of how little was contributed both pre and during.
They got only 11 posts! SDA had over 240 last night.
Posted by: tomax7 at December 3, 2006 12:54 PMmaryT;
I usually enjoy your posts . Finding them well thought out, with some care.
Here I must disagree with you in many particulars. You say correctly a lot of assumptions have been made. You forget your also indulging in this pastime.
There in no proof Eddy will Include Morton or even that Morton will stay in said compromised party. More likely, is Ed Stelmach will employ Dinning. After all there more or less ideological twins. Only Dinning is a Master, & Eddy the novice of dissembling.
Ed Stelmach had no platform except to be a nice guy!!! So its another 4 years of wildfire spending .Buttressed by a wishy washy solve problems by half measures as they appear regimine. I heard nothing about infrastructure by this man, nor any plans at all for renewal, rural or urban. Absolutely nothing on democratic reform. This is just another political clone of the liberals playing red Tory.
His timidity is legend, so no heroics for Alberta when the political barbarians, come to loot us as is there want.
Ed & the good ole boy's running him will continue there legacy of corporate welfare. Health spending that does nothing. Perhaps start there own daycare program to enucleate socialist principles into individuals to turn them into collectivists.
Its absolutely incredible to me , that this Country that is going threw a revolution of sorts. That its richest most conservative Province, would vote the status quo .
Mary these guys have NO Plans for the future except to continue with the same old story. This is a disaster ,& it means the end of the Conservatives as a viable party. As I said before , if Ralph had not been elected many years ago it would not exist today. All the money in the world can not buy integrity. The red Tories here, lost it many moons ago.
With no populist, & a stand in, it will wither to nothing.
A storm is coming Mary. We needed a shelter! Morton would have given us this. Now where at the mercy of political children & old wizened cynical whores, with fortunes to nurture. A federal Party that may be a may fly . While the predators like Dion wait like vultures, at a crematorium.
Do you honestly think Eddy will have the grit to stand up to a Dion government? Or even the brains to know he's being played? Compared to his contemporaries, this man is a child compared to the larceny of ages, these pro’s have nested in for many years. A mooncalf with liberal sensibilities is a hazard not a bulwark against Eastern domination.
He is the compromise candidate, in an age of rapid change. He will be a bad footnote in Albertan history. Morton will be left out to dry, while the usual pigs will be at the trough. As well waiting in the wings are the NEP crowd set with a new way to steal. Way to go Alberta!!!!!
Just my opinion.
Posted by: Revnant Dream at December 3, 2006 12:57 PM"look tomorrow for all the national media to condemn Dion because he doesn't speak English, as they would if an English Prime Minister couldnt speak French. Hardy har har har."
like they've been doing everytime he has been mentioned in the press for the last 8 months
Posted by: kmm at December 3, 2006 1:00 PMRev; I agree with your frustration but I think seperatists will be met with as much frothing as Morton did this week. I am very interested in Manning's new party.
Interesting that Kelley Charlebois was part of the Dinning team. Wonder if he and his buddy Mar will be tucking tail?
Posted by: Cheri at December 3, 2006 1:01 PMBruce said:
I've never heard any suggestion that Dion is gay. Are you sure you're not confusing him with Pierre Pettigrew, the CabMin who took his chauffeur to Paris?
No, I am not confusing him Pettigrew. There are rumblings around Ottawa about his orientation. Personally I don't give a hoot, but thanks to our multiculturalistic society, there are a lot of "old World" attitudes (insert "hatreds") within the ethnic community concerning ones sexual orientation. These rumblings could come back to haunt him. Perhaps he needs to be straight up and forward on this issue.
I understand he is a staunch federalist......but to which country? Will Stephan Dion give up his French citizenship?
maryT said:
Will the environment be the ballot question next election. I say NO. It is a false feel good issue. When voters realize that the changes to their lifestyle implementing kyoto would bring they will wake up.
Couldn't agree more! But the message of the unacceptable costs will have to be communicated, over and over and over again, and not in the abstract -- not using economic aggregates which no one understands -- but in real day to day terms where "people live".
It's like "ethical" mutual funds. People don't want them if their returns are sub-par.
That said, there are an awful lot of people out there who have been taught in the public school system that the earth has maybe 50 years at best!
Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at December 3, 2006 1:08 PMI don't know that it's all that bad, Rev. I agree that Stelmach isn't as strong as I'd like our premier to be, but we get to take a look at his performance for 18-24 months before deciding to keep him or not. During which time we have Harper for 6 months, then a federal election that should go his way. Even if Dion pulls off another miracle the federal libs likely couldn't do an end run on Alberta before we have our next provincial election. I do agree though, that our next after this premier better have a spine!
Ewwwww! Just had a nasty thought. What if the old boys decide to parachute Iggy into provincial politics? Nah.
Posted by: Polly at December 3, 2006 1:18 PMA business man once told me many years ago: "Canadians are comprised of two groups of people, losers, and the rest that feel sorry for the losers". It made me mad as hell at the time, but over the years in business myself, I could see where he was coming from. We as Canadians complain and vote against people and what they stand for, but don't seem to have the courage to stand up, say what we stand for, and vote for what we stand for. The Liberals are the epitome of this. Accordingly, no-one really knows what Dion really stands for, knew what Rae stood for, and had some idea of where Ignatief stood (Iraq), so Dion comes out the winner.
I've always thought that Albertans (and most conservatives) were the exceptions to this rule, but yesterday's election shows times are a-changing even here. We certainly knew where Ted stood, had a fair idea where Dinning stood, but knew little about Stelmach. Second placement votes still show that the vote in Alberta was a conservative vote, but we are being infected with the "I'm-afraid-to-do-something" virus.
Or "stand up for something" for that matter.
Posted by: al-lea at December 3, 2006 1:20 PMRev. Dream, I agree with you, but my point is, if Ed does not bring Ted along, I wont be the only Albertan living in an Alliance riding. There are 2 yrs left in Ralphs mandate, and until the next election Ed will try to keep the party together. I think it is a lost cause. Remember, Albertans throw govts out, not elect new ones. There is a new party for us waiting to be born. Dion has a lot of rebuilding to do also, and does not want an election anytime soon. Ed has got two highways that are causing him problems, #63, and #4, or the last 10 miles of the can-mex to be twinned in the south. He changed the original route, costing at least 35 million more than the first route. Property has been bought, farmers bought out, houses moved, and still no twinned highway, after 10 yrs. Seems the CPR is not anxious to move the tracks, and have 2 level crossings on a main highway. That is what cost them a PC seat, and only 2nd ballot choice in the south. I voted him second, but would never vote for him in a prov election. I agree a storm is brewing but not too many take it serious. If there is only another 50 years of the earth, good news for my great grandkids. In 25 years they can take out a mortgage, run up huge credit card debt etc and never have to worry about paying for it.
Posted by: maryT at December 3, 2006 1:27 PMWhile I am disappointed that Ted didn't win, I am elated that Dinning didn't win.
I think we need to see where Ed stands and who he brings into Cabinet. Dinning would have been a complete disaster. At least with Ed there is a chance that we could get something good out of this... or it could be the Strom scenario that others have pointed out. The next few weeks will be very very interesting.
Posted by: JamesfromCalgary at December 3, 2006 1:33 PM...one thing folks we have to keep in perspective:
This was not an election. So it doesn't totally reflect on Albertans, just the PC side.
Secondly, without contradicting myself, it does show the voter apathy is alive and well in Alberta.
133,000 votes does not a province make.
When the Alberta elections come within a couple of years, I do hope there will be a strong turnout and vote for Alberta Alliance or if Preston Manning gets invovled as the PC's have shown they are not functioning in Joe Albertan interest but big business.
Posted by: tomax7 at December 3, 2006 1:39 PMMitch "Specifically, no mushy vague stuff. I'd be interested to hear, cuz I can't think of one."
That he isn't in denial about the greatest problem our civilization faces (hint: it's not gay marriage) might sway some people.
Posted by: Jose at December 3, 2006 1:56 PMMad Mike, you asked, "...Is Dion one of Powercorps' boys? Hmmmm..."
I'm no insider, but when France Chretien Desmarais showed up yesterday in Dion's camp after the third ballot, and on national television in front of a CBC camera, and said that she was declaring for Stephane Dion on the next ballot, I kind of figured it out:
If Stephane Dion wasn't a Power Corp guy at that point, he almost certainly is now.
Posted by: 'been around the block at December 3, 2006 2:04 PMMitch "Specifically, no mushy vague stuff. I'd be interested to hear, cuz I can't think of one."That he isn't in denial about the greatest problem our civilization faces (hint: it's not gay marriage) might sway some people.
Posted by: Jose at December 3, 2006 01:56 PM
Dion, in English, is an intellectual buffoon. He may be quite the savant (frankly, that's always seemed to be more hype than fact, based on much of what he says) in his native French, but his inability to speak intellectually in the language of 3/4 of the Canadian population dooms him out of the gate. I get the sense, that personally, Dion is a helluva nice guy, but way out of his depth politically.
Posted by: Skip at December 3, 2006 2:15 PMWonder if the MSM will go after Dion's appearance/speech/nerdiness as hard as they went after Preston Manning's?
Wonder if Dion will have a makeover? Who'll he hire to do it for him? The Queer Eye for the Nerdy Guy guys? That'll work for leftwing voters, but not for mainstream voters. And he wouldn't be a convincing tough guy or regular guy. He's an ivory tower academic/elitist/submissive Liebrano with a napsack and will never be able to shake that image.
And I'm not all that convinced that he's such a great policy formulator. I really haven't seen what I consider to be real evidence beyond circumstance or luck.
Harper, on the other hand, is proven effective as a policy formulator. And a deliverer of policy and promise, at least to the extent that the Liberal-controlled Senate didn't block his legislation...
I doubt Dion will spark much interest in the Canadian electorate. He's kinda like a federalist Gilles Duceppe, but with a real smile. Boring and tightassed and not prime ministerial material.
Nice enough fellow, I'm sure at this point, but really...
Canada needs a tough guy who stands up for the country and its values no matter what. And Stephen Harper is already doing exactly that!
Posted by: The Canadian Sentinel at December 3, 2006 2:16 PM"look tomorrow for all the national media to condemn Dion because he doesn't speak English, as they would if an English Prime Minister couldnt speak French. Hardy har har har."
KMM, I don't disagree that it has been mentioned in the media. But I heard a french columnist on CBC one night a few years back say a party leader should be able to speak both languages. I think she was taking Preston Manning to task at the time. I am suggesting that Stephane Dion does not speak English well enough to aspire to Prime Ministership. I wonder what that same columnist would say to that.
Posted by: MikeP at December 3, 2006 2:16 PM"....in denial about the greatest problem our civilization faces...."--Jose
Hot-button, emotional and pandering hyperbole.
Posted by: A. Cooper at December 3, 2006 2:17 PMI'm cross-posting here from the "Rae Walks to Ignatieff (or Doesn't)" thread. (He didn't. It looks like that friendship's toast.)
Here's my earlier post:
Martin is no Anglo. He's also heavily connected to Power Corps, just like every Quebec PM, including Mulroney, since at least Trudeau. And, if Rae or Iggy had won, Anglo or not, they too are simply Power Corps' puppets. (John Rae, Bob's brother, is a major Power Corps CEO. That weasel, Mo Strong's, also one of the key Power Corps players.)
And, as batb notes, at the recent Liberal love-in, a Desmarais daughter publicly threw her support to Dion, a Chretien partisan.
Canadians need to wake up from their torpor and find out what's really going on here.
From the Star article: "All in the family; Liberals, Conservatives for the Desmarais business family, it doesn't really matter who is in power. The Montreal-based clan has been plugged into Ottawa for decades, reports Peter Hadekel
The Toronto Star
Saturday, February 11, 2006
Page: F1
Section: National Report
Byline: Peter Hadekel
Dateline: MONTREAL
Source: Special to the Star"
Google "Peter Hadekel, Desmarais Family" for the full text.
Then tell all your friends: if they're Canadian, they'll probably learn something new here. Then I hope they'll be bloody angry at being made such dupes by the reigning monarchs--what supreme irony--in Quebec. (I don't exactly hold my breath.)
Posted by: lookout at December 3, 2006 2:29 PMIn their bright red neck ties and blouses, the MSM yakking heads are actually asking questions about Dion's chances versus Harper:
How believable is his environmental stand, given his (as environmnet minister) and his partys environmental failure - 35% increase in greenhouse gases while Liberals were governing.
Quebecers won't vote for Dion, because of his brittle federalist stand, author of the clarity act, etc. (in period political cartoons he was depicted as a rat, and still remembered as one). In fact, the Tories were saying that after Dion won, prominent Quebec Liberals came to them and said they will throw their support behind the Conservatives in the next election.
Dion is totally unknown west of Ontario. I'd say he's totally unknown by everybody, maybe even by his wife.
He was part of the scandal ridden Liberal government, therefore the old guard Liberals still control the party. (One question Mr. Dion...How did you not know?)
Major rift in the Liberal party - 80% didn't support him on first ballot.
But they never mentioned the elephant in the room - 85% of Canadians can't understand a damn thing he says. I think we've had enough patois PM's who can't speak the 'oter' official language. Not to mention, most of us have had enough of the French, period.
And if the other items are true - a gay dual citizen of France - Yikes!
All in all, I think Dion will be the best Christmas gift the Liberals could have ever given the Conservatives.
A Conservative landslide majority in the spring? Let's go. The fun won't be just in the winning, it'll be in the crushing and tearing apart.
Posted by: irwin daisy at December 3, 2006 2:33 PMMitch "Specifically, no mushy vague stuff. I'd be interested to hear, cuz I can't think of one."
"That he isn't in denial about the greatest problem our civilization faces (hint: it's not gay marriage) might sway some people."
Posted by: Jose at December 3, 2006 01:56 PM
I have never heard Stephane Dion, or any other member of the "dream team" even utter the phrase: 'Islamic extremism'.
So who's really in denial?
Posted by: felis corpulentis at December 3, 2006 2:40 PMI believe that the greatest imminent threat facing the Free World and humanity today is Islamic supremacism, imperialism and jihad.
I don't believe that Dion realizes this. I believe he's too buried in his trivial academia and party stuff to give a crap.
I don't believe Dion is a "strongman". National leaders must be strong, must be capable of standing up and fighting for real, not just by babbling or writing letters. I mean real fighting- combat, war, etc. A leader must have the courage to send troops where needed to defend Canada's interests.
The world is too dangerous a place to trust Canada to a mere academic elitist from the ivory towers.
Posted by: The Canadian Sentinel at December 3, 2006 2:57 PMGood post, lookout. I'm checking out the link you gave. I can barely believe that The Star is exposing the Power Corp connection. (One small correction: France Chretien Desmarais is a Desmarais daughter-in-law. She's Jean Chretien's daughter and is married to Paul Desmarais' son, Andre.)
Does anyone have more on the rumour that Dion is gay? I believe, in the CBC sidebar that gave stats on all of the candidates, it said that he was married with two children...
Posted by: 'been around the block at December 3, 2006 3:00 PMYou're right, batb. (A slip because I actually know that Mme Desmarais-Chretien--or vice versa--is Jean Crouton's daughter.)
Re being married: so is Bill Graham! But this is an interesting side bar to all the hoopla.
Posted by: lookout at December 3, 2006 3:09 PMI totally agree with lookout's suggestion that the Power Corp/Desmarais connections be broadcast far and wide.
I'm finding that a lot of my friends and acquaintances have no idea who Paul Desmarais is, what Power Corp is, or that there is any connection between such a huge financial conglomeration and the Liberal Party.
If Eron or Halliburton had the kind of connections with the Republicans and were intimately involved in four U.S. Republican Presidents, the MSM would be all over it. If the Conservatives had similar connections to Power Corp as the Libs do, the MSM would be all over it.
The Desmarais seem to be charmed, or they're wearing an invisibility cloak. The Canadian MSM, by and large, haven't touched this story. Mark Steyn has written about Power Corp in The Western Standard and there's this article in the Feb. 2006 Toronto Star, but there seems to be no outrage either on the part of the public or the MSM.
What gives?
Posted by: 'been around the block at December 3, 2006 3:14 PM"Does anyone have more on the rumour that Dion is gay? I believe, in the CBC sidebar that gave stats on all of the candidates, it said that he was married with two children..."
Just to make a point, Bill Graham also has a wife and two children...
Posted by: Bruce at December 3, 2006 3:17 PMOne of the reasons I wanted Ted Morton to be premier was to see the power base of Canada shift from Central to Western Canada, and I think Ted Morton is the only one who could pull that off in spectacular fashion.
He would have cut off transfer payments to the east and yes that means Que. Right away that would have given him leverage because its always easier to get a good deal when you deal from a position of power. Example, resume transfer payments when (1) we get an elected senate with equal representation, (2) we get resdistribution of seats proportional to our pop.
etc. etc.
Now we are not going to see this because I suggest Stelmach will work more on a consensus basis. He is a good man and all, but I dont think he is as strong as Morton would have been in this position.
The power shift is coming but now it will evolve over a period of time instead of straightaway.
Bruce, Dion is not gay. Its Pierre Pettigrew I believe people are confusing him with. I think his wife was with yesterday when he won the leadership.
Posted by: MikeP at December 3, 2006 3:34 PMMike:
That's what I thought too, when Odie441 first raised the question. But see his response at 1:07pm.
Frankly, even if Dion is, I don't think that it's not much of an issue anyway, especially if he remains "closeted", so to speak.
Posted by: Bruce at December 3, 2006 3:45 PMI don't know if anyone watched CTV's Question Period today....but it was soooo nice to see Jane Taber subdued and quiet. She must know that come the next federal election all her Liberal pals are going to get their ass handed to them in a pretty pink basket. With electing Steph-an Dionne as their broken An-glas leeder, dey will see defeet 'anded to dem. I can 'ardly wait! "Parlay vouz da running shoe" Steph-an.
Posted by: Ron Mullin at December 3, 2006 3:56 PMIndeed, we must proceed to examine the ties between the Liberals and Power Corp.
We cannot have big, fat money interests dictating the domestic and foreign policy of Canada. And that is obviously how it works with the Liberals, from what I've uncovered and which the MSM shockingly, inexplicably ignored.
The influences exerted upon the Liberals is frightening. We cannot afford to ignore the connections. We must look closely at Maurice Strong as well. If he's anything like George Soros in the US, who effectively controls the Democratic Party, then he may as well effectively control the Liberal Party. It's simply too close, too cozy.
Our government must comprise of individuals who genuinely have the best interests of Canada and Canadians at heart, rather than just claim to and not mean it. This means Stephen Harper and his Conservatives. The Liberals will merely say they care about anything if they think it'll get votes. And, at best, they just throw money around wastefully, claiming that doing so is taking action. Yeah, right.
Posted by: The Canadian Sentinel at December 3, 2006 3:56 PMDoes it really matter if Dion is gay? I could care less myself.
Unless he's one of those one trick pony sexual monomaniacs, who would force everyone to embrace sodomy or child sex, with forced mandated pro-gay school recruters. Or worse one of the force them out of the closet crowd . For there own good of course.
You know the kind of liberal nut, who thinks gay marrage is normal but not hetrosexual unions unatural!
Jimmy Carter was a Christian & the wrost President in my opinion, of the United States.
Labels mean nothing. Its actions. With Dion all roads leed to Power Corp. That is what disturbs me. Hell, I have more against the Peta crowd.
Posted by: Revnant Dream at December 3, 2006 4:16 PMlieberal leadership campaign & convention in a nutshell:
iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy,
iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy,
iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy,
rae
rae
iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy,
iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy, iggy,
iggyrae.
clang clang clang !!! last call !!!
huh ?
dion !!!!!!!!
Tomax,
You said:
“...one thing folks we have to keep in perspective”:
“Secondly, without contradicting myself, it does show the voter apathy is alive and well in Alberta. 133,000 votes does not a province make”.
Speaking of perspective Tomax, how is it that you can criticize only 133,000 Albertan’s voting for a new leader/premier, when only 4800 liberals elect a new national leader.
Talk about democracy!
Erwin
Do you think Stephane Dion and the Liberals can defeat Stephen Harper and the Conservatives in the next federal election?
Yes
6897 votes (52%) 6897 votes
No
6377 votes (48%) 6377 votes
Total votes: 13274
GlobeMail
Maybe the truth as to why Chretain stayed out of Iraq will finally come out. The Demaris clan had huge contracts with Saddam and his oil empire. It was all about oil, oil for profit for Chretains inlaws. Many posted on that a few yrs ago, but the TO elite said it was a lie. Did Martin ever really pay Power Corp for the CSL. How many of you have worked for just a few years and been given a part of the company because ??????.
Dion will be known forever as the "anybody but" leader. Greg Weston says Harper was the real winner yesterday. He said once cartoonists compare you to a rat or a mouse you and done. Those cartoons will soon see the light of day again on some blog. Dion will not win many seats in Que and will be lucky to hold what he has. His inability to speak english will really be imitated and made fun of. When I receive calls for this that or whatever, and the caller has a bad accent, I lead them on and then say, could I please speak to someone who speaks english. It is especially fun when you get called back to verify the call and say, what, no one I could understand called me. I only speak english, american sign language and profanity, and the last too are not great for the telephone.
Re:Dion's comments on Fort M.and "sustenabul" development..or however he says that..he is on with Rex Murphy now.A woman called in from Fort M.,with her concerns about just that.His response was something about the carbon-buying crap,credits,etc.Didn't really catch it all..maybe cbc has an audio vault of today's program.The Libs.must have gotten a heads-up,as it is a big love fest!
Posted by: Sammy at December 3, 2006 5:00 PMDion is a political animal.
Dion has read The Memoirs of the Marquis de Sade, in particular, the chapters on the whip and its uses.
Dion loves his fellow countrymen's works. Dion loves you, too. Bien sur. Justice sociale for all; or, else.
Dion says Liberal MPs are like cattle; to be driven by the whip.
Cruel; scary Dion. Cold even.
A taste of what's to come from Dion, the socialist; scary.
...-
DION READY TO CRACK HIS WHIP ON SSM
Liberal Leader Stephane Dion indicated Sunday he's ready to crack the whip at his caucus when it comes to this week's vote on same-sex marriage.
(national newswatch)
The Kim Campbell of the Liberal Party. They'll bide their time until they can find somebody real - i.e. that's connected - REALLY CONNECTED to Power Corp. Can't have a PM who thinks for himself, now can we? A PM and GG both, both citizens of France (yeah, the GG gave it up, I know). Is anybody tired of French(first)-Canadian politicians who'd rather live abroad than here? Does that mean that aside from their generous salary, perqs, etc., they don't have to pay taxes for the full year because they're citizens of France as well?
Posted by: Iron Lady at December 3, 2006 7:22 PMMaz2 I really don't think Harpers heart is in this same sex thing anyway. He is only doing it as a sop to us social conservatives. I suspect we are stuck with SSM. What will be interesting is to see if Stelmach allows Mortons bill c208 to go through.
Posted by: MikeP at December 3, 2006 7:41 PM"Montreal MP Denis Coderre, one of Michael Ignatieff’s chief organizers, was said to be ruminating about his future after Dion’s victory."
canada.com
Coderre was hoping to be Iggy's Ambassador to
Hezbollah....-
Posted by: maz2 at December 3, 2006 7:56 PMQuote of the week - "We want the person that's best for Canada , so definitely for us that's Stepane Dion." said Mousa Qasqas , a young Muslim from Calgary." Page 11 Calgary Sun .There you have it folks , the all important RoP endorsement . Any one paying any attention ?
Posted by: Bill. D. Cat at December 3, 2006 8:03 PMI think Harper will bring up SSM as a matter of principle...not so much about the moral issue, but about the way it was not a free presentative vote in parliament.
How do the Alberts people on this sight see Stelmach working with Harper?...Harper has indicated he wants less Ottawa in provincial matters.
vf, Stelmach is an unknown quantity really, and no one knows how he will perform. I doubt whether there will be much chance for any confrontation between now and the next federal election. The test to come will be how he handles equalization.
And I think provincially, how he handles private health care. The make up of his cabinet will give us a huge opportunity to see in which direction he is headed.
Revnant Dream: lots of good posts, but for gawdsake, man ...
their: ownership (think of heir) e.g. I saw their leadership convention.
they're: contraction for they are, e.g., they're a bunch of crooks.
there: opposite of here, e.g. awfully glad I wasn't there!
Their I finely said it! :)
Posted by: Me No Dhimmi at December 3, 2006 9:17 PM"KMM, I don't disagree that it has been mentioned in the media. But I heard a french columnist on CBC one night a few years back say a party leader should be able to speak both languages. I think she was taking Preston Manning to task at the time. I am suggesting that Stephane Dion does not speak English well enough to aspire to Prime Ministership. I wonder what that same columnist would say to that."
Thats fair enough. I just think Dion has been taken to task on his english sufficiently. More so then the anglophone candidates were being taken to task on their french and I think that Dion's english was quite good compared to the other candidates french, especially Ignatieffs. It seemed to me like it was structurally and gramatically sound for the most part, but the pronunciation obviously needs work. He's definitely better than chretien though.
Posted by: kmm at December 3, 2006 10:50 PMThere will be no free vote on SSM if Dionista uses the WHIP. So again the issue will not be settled, and Harper can again rally his base with trying to get a free vote in the HofC. Is the new opposition leader afraid of how his members will vote. That should tell the cdn people the liberals have not changed and will never renew their party and give their MPs freedom. Fewer trained seals elected next time. Layton and Dion are dictators.
Posted by: maryT at December 3, 2006 10:55 PMSaw in the Herald where Mark Norris (candidate who swung to Stelmach) has been named as the replacement for Elzinga as chief exec. of the AB pc party. Elzinga had resigned before the vote so as to leave the field open. One of the first of many and this strikes me as being a good a good fit.
Now, what happens to Justice Minister (a Dinning man). I sure hope that the pick is not Dave Hancock, lawyer (another swing candidate, probably liberal-lite). I think we need a change from lawyer/politicians in anything remotely dealing with any kind of justice - with the lawyers doing the fine tuning in the background. Time for some good old fashioned common sense. Same holds true for the panel members/chair of the Human Rights Commission. Under Ralph, all things legal have been allowed to move far to much to the left for me.
The same goes for the Minister of Education - this guy has got to go. He never did take a public position on any of the candidates.
Intergovernmental Affairs/liason with Federal Gov't is key. I hope we don't have to have bilingual as being the screening filter for this position. Let's go for competence first and if the person speaks five languages, great.
Then comes immigration - Quebec controls their own so hopefully we will do the same - or at least make some big indents here. This may be an early indicator of just how strong the new gov't is when it comes to dealing with the feds. Ralph was a lot of bristle but when it came to doing, he basically capitulated far to much.
When the premier takes home about $180k and the chair of the Calgary Health Authority takes home about $1 million - probably the same in Edmonton - this house has to get cleaned pronto. Likewise the Chair of Childhood Services getting bumped from about $160k to about $260k a few weeks ago should be re-bumped. Soooo many things. Unlike the Prime Minister, the premier of AB has a great deal of discretionary power without near the red tape. If there is a will - things can happen.
Posted by: calgary clipper at December 3, 2006 11:37 PM
Even though it's a push-poll, I'm getting nervous and scared.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061203/libs_poll_061203/20061203?hub=TopStories
Liberal: 37 per cent (+5)
Conservative: 31 per cent (-1)
NDP: 14 per cent (-3)
Bloc Quebecois: 11 per cent (unchanged)
Green: 7 per cent (-2)
In Ontario, the Liberals experienced a 12-point jump, going from 36 per cent to 48 per cent. The Tories dropped a point to 32 per cent. However, in Quebec and the West, the Liberals' numbers were flat.
The margin of error for the national poll was plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.
The Quebec subset, was plus or minus 6.3 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.
Ontario subset was plus or minus 5.0 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.
Posted by: Ace at December 3, 2006 11:59 PMAce, read the technical a little more closely:
They polled 247 people in Quebec and 379 in Ontario, the balance (274) were the rest of Canada. Much too small a number to really get a good bead on, margins really high for error, yet CTV trumpets from the rooftops!
I know and Strategic Counsel is notoriously unreliable (that 41-25 poll last election). Even CTV admitted that Harper has a very high approval rating - 59%.
But I get the nagging feeling that we're more likely tied (as that's what the margin of error suggests). An SES poll had us at 34-32 before the convention.
Also, the West and Quebec numbers were stable as predicted, but the Ontario numbers moved a lot. I'm hoping it's just the MSM coverage for a week straight with no ads.
Let's just hope Harper's keeping the tax-cutting gunpowder dry until the February budget. ;)
Posted by: Ace at December 4, 2006 12:33 AMRelax Ace. Every party gets a month long bump in the polls after a leadership convention.
Beaker (who I sense is NOT gay) has a certain appeal but is not the guy who is going to do it for the Libs. He has huge English problems and an abrasive manner. He is connected to the Chretien regime and unpopular in Quebec. His green preoccupation will cause vote splitting with the dippers and greenies. He has no clue that a foreign policy doesn not consist of constantly repeating old "Busharper!!" canards.
Harper will take nothing for granted and is even now formulating the basis of a plan for dealing with him.
Relax everyone!! The grownups are in charge.
Posted by: Bart F. at December 4, 2006 12:49 AMAce - from what I understand, there is always a "bump" after a leader is elected, as the "unknown" factor is replaced with a "known" quantity. I wouldn't sweat it too much just yet, especially with PMSH getting 59% approval (when only what, 31-37%, depending on which poll you look at on any given day, would VOTE for him).
As with any road/lake/ocean, after the crest of the bump comes the "dip" as people realize that maybe this guy isn't the 2nd coming.
Posted by: Candace at December 4, 2006 12:53 AMThis is so damn funny...
Do you think Stephane Dion and the Liberals can defeat Stephen Harper and the Conservatives in the next federal election?
Yes
6897 votes (52%) 6897 votes
No
6377 votes (48%) 6377 votes
Total votes: 13274
GlobeMail
Quoting that bastion of even-handed reporting...
Like it means something
Bring it on!
Mr. Harper will mop up the floor with Mr. Dion
On stage in front of the whole country...
In English
And the G&M will declare Mr. Dion the winner...
as per usual
Hopefully the Canadian public will not be fooled yet again!!!
Calgary Clipper; The same Mark Norris whose creative financing/consulting was quietly shut down? (http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=0a181d46-2d32-466c-ac84-b3da7f7c792c).
In looking for a link I came across this Rick Bell story regarding the Auditor General, Fred Dunn's invest. of Lloyd Carr and the rumour of funnelled money into leadership bids. Right towards the bottom - 5th par. I found this interesting tid bit: "Yesterday morning, Dunn's department also talks to the province about the possible running up of expenses on a government credit card in 2004 by the executive assistant to former economic development minister Mark Norris, who is now running for Tory leader.
Dunn's department is "quite surprised" they hadn't heard of the allegations and asks government officials why auditors were not told. The answer? They didn't think there was anything to be concerned about. Situation normal.
Dunn is now on it. (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/11/24/2474485-sun.html).
Also there was a teeny column about 1 column X 2" in the Edmonton Journal just prior to the 1st vote about Mark Norris admitting to a one time gambling problem. It was beyond me why he brought it up.
Kate, making fun of Stephanes Dion's accent is an ingenious and sophisticated tactic. If his face was, say, paralyzed on one side, you could have used that, too.
Posted by: Crabgrass at December 4, 2006 8:01 AMHis accent is a result of having poor English skills and makes it difficult to understand him - so it's an issue. The real thing I'm "making fun" of, is his proclivity of throwing the word "sustainable" into every third sentence.
Much like "fundamentally" was used by Paul Martin.
Posted by: Kate at December 4, 2006 9:48 AMI'm curious as to whether Dion speaks Francais Standard, is it the typical Quebecois French, or is it a blend. Since he has "triple" citizenship, my guess it is the first. If so, this may account for what seems to be an anti-Quebec feeling against him - particularly in uni-lingual P.Q. They may resent his "sophisticated" use of French and may also find it hard to follow him in French.
Agreed - he is difficult to understand because of pronunciation and it is an issue - just as central Canada raised it with attempts by Manning & Day to speak French.
With central Canada it seems it may well not be enough to speak Francais Standard because this is not "real French, it sounds funny"
Posted by: calgary clipper at December 4, 2006 10:36 AMCheri -
This business of "thinking there was nothing to be concerned about" isn't going to cut it any longer. There is a problem in ADAC - get it all out there ard get it cleaned cup.
There is a lot to be concerned about in a whole lot of areas. We need a Shelia Fraser in AB and a premier with the guts to give that person the headway to do what is necessary.
The lines between iffy, not nice, unethical, and illegal are pretty fuzzy and getting less clear all the time in politics. Hopefully new glasses will make a difference but we shall see.
I sure hope this Norris appointment is not a bad step already. The spin by Bell, I think may be ??
Posted by: calgary clipper at December 4, 2006 11:13 AM
Crabgrass prefers the ultimate in "ingenious and sophisticated" au lieberal "looks fat in a vest" test !
Posted by: richfisher at December 4, 2006 12:20 PMRich, I'm not clear on why you would say that I prefer a crack about someone's weight problem. You could look forever and you would not find that kind of thing from me anywhere at any time.
Anyway, Kate cleared the air and indicated that she was referring to Mr. Dion's frequent use of the word "sustainable". I'd say that's fair enough - politicians and parties are forever trying to brand themselves using some snippet that they think will appeal. Stand up for Canada, getting things done, don't cut and run, stay the course, spreading democracy, etc.... they all do it. It's a sales package.
Posted by: Crabgrass at December 5, 2006 12:01 AM