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August 8, 2006

The Flags Of Dalton McGuinty's Ontario

flags_caledonia.jpg

(Images from CWC)

Also - Here's a bit of info about the "rock and golfball throwing" incident. Brave Mohawks indeed - small wonder they hide their identities behind ladies' hankies.

UPDATE - Toronto Star;

A judge is ordering an end to negotiations between the province and aboriginal protesters over a contentious tract of land until the occupiers move off the property.

Superior Court Justice David Marshall says the talks must be suspended until the barricades come down at the Caledonia, Ont., housing development.

Marshall issued his order today after holding several hearings to discover why his previous orders to remove aboriginal protesters have been, in his words, "blatantly disregarded."


His tough talk would be more convincing if he threw a few high ranking officials in the slammer for contempt of court.


Posted by Kate at August 8, 2006 10:32 AM
Comments

The presence of that Palestinian flag says it all.

Posted by: JJM at August 8, 2006 10:49 AM


McWimpy needs to be tarred and feathered then run out of town by the villagers carrying torches and pitchforks.

I'm comparing him to Bob Rae and I'm not seeing an improvement. I'm not even sure which of the two would be given the title of worst Ontario Premier in History so I'll have to give them a tie.

Posted by: Warwick at August 8, 2006 10:55 AM

McBendover! This is such an embarrassement to our country, that this has not been settled. I guess we will just have to wait for the judges ruling in an hour.... I have a strong gut feeling that nothing will change. Maybe the judge should hold McBendover in contempt of court.

Posted by: MaryM at August 8, 2006 11:00 AM

I wait with breathless anticipation at the CBC's coverage of this. Too bad my TV has a CBC parental block. Will someone, with a stronger stomach than I, keep us posted?

Posted by: Cheri at August 8, 2006 11:00 AM

It never ceases to amaze me that people (McWimpy in this case) think that capitulating to terrorists will solve anything. The only answer to terrorism is extreme and violent retaliation. They should be immediately squashed and not a second thought given to it. Talking to terrorists, much less giving in to them, only gives them credibility and encourages more such acts.

Posted by: johnboy at August 8, 2006 11:10 AM

Aww, we're such softies.

Posted by: EBD at August 8, 2006 11:11 AM

When does the Hezzbolah flag raising ceremony begin? Will the CBC have live coverage?

Posted by: Grandad at August 8, 2006 11:14 AM

Now here's a police force we can all respect and admire. OPP take note:

Link from Drinking From Home Blog (http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com/2006/08/indonesian-terrorists-to-fight-israel.html#links)

Yahoo News - JAKARTA (AFP) - "Hardline Indonesian Islamic volunteers who want to go fight Israel in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories have paraded in the streets as police vowed to stop them leaving the country. "

Posted by: Cheri at August 8, 2006 11:42 AM

Flying the Palestinan flag, are they? Wonderful. Almost time for the people of Caledonia to defend themselves, as no one else seems too interested.

Posted by: Krydor at August 8, 2006 11:51 AM


What ???????

No orange flag for Hezbollah/Hizbullah/Hozballoh ?

Posted by: Ratt at August 8, 2006 11:56 AM


How bad can this situation get? Here's a new low... guess who the natives were stoning?

http://hallsofmacadamia.blogspot.com/2006/08/mohawks-targetted-89-yo-man.html#links

Posted by: neo at August 8, 2006 11:58 AM

There is no doubt that Canada's Native people have watched Hizb'allah and Hamas, and have learned.

Violence is much "sexier" and dare I say it, mor fun for some, than the messy, difficut task of land negotiations.

Posted by: bcf at August 8, 2006 12:14 PM

Judge rules that the province should stop negotiations until the barricades are taken down.

Posted by: MaryM at August 8, 2006 12:16 PM

[deleted due to profanity - last warning.]

Posted by: Robert J at August 8, 2006 12:19 PM

Ah, a "Palestinian" flag.

How appropriate, as I did a post just today declaring that Canada now has its own "Palestine".

http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com/2006/08/ethnic-violence-erupts-police-do.html

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at August 8, 2006 12:28 PM

Indians desecrating the Canadian flag?

Way to go, boys!

That'll really help you curry favor with regular Canadians and help you get stuff!

Nice going! Whatcha gonna do next, burn it?

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at August 8, 2006 12:31 PM

Judge rules that the province should stop negotiations until the barricades are taken down.

Posted by: MaryM at August 8, 2006 12:16 PM

"Should" being the operative word in that sentence and assumed ruling.
When "MUST" would work much better and pehaps initiate action that is long overdue on behalf of Caledonia citizens.
Throw these bums in jail and the government that allows it to happen right along with them.
Appeasers are going to get us all killed and that is no stretch.
Iran is up to something really bad in my view and we had better be about stopping them in their tracks.
Caledonia proves this in ways not even the Israeli defense of their country illustrates:
Citizens, peaceful and community minded have been attacked, bullied and put upon in ways none of us would expect to have to put up with.
We have had a simple view of life in that we expect those we put in charge of our peace actually take their job seriously and intend to do it.
I can think of no more moral and political betrayal than the way the OPP and the Ontario government have behaved.
They have betrayed Ontarians and Canadians at every level.
Recall for McGuinty and overhaul of the OPP should be the order of the day.
The Citizens of Caledonia deserve our support and the government and OPP need a strong message from the rest of us how disdainful we feel about their failure to do their jobs.
Justice Marshall is close to becoming one of the problems instead of the solution with his refusal to absolutely back up his rulings.
Rulings that came down in March. Here we are in August and there has been absolutely nothing done to protect the innocent and jail the perpetrators of the crimes.
Instead we hear that these criminals are being rewarded with land and a casino.
With our tax dollars and with no shame whatsoever about their failure to do their job.
Caledonians have every right to defend what is theirs and to defend those in the community who are not as able to defend themselves.
They have every right to throw rocks and take action to defend an 89 year old.
What about this is hard for the OPP and McGuintites to figure out?
We ought to make sure they figure it out real quick while beating the pavement in the unemployment line!

Posted by: Snowbunnie at August 8, 2006 12:31 PM

Isn't bending over [I’m not sure which way] the lib/left way? You can't get your nose in the trough, avoid confrontation or the ability to make conscientious decisions without bending. Bending is your way, you perfected it, it’s your moral fiber.

I will give the left credit for nerve though, the nerve to look themselves in the mirror daily and look their families in the eye and say, I am doing the right thing.

Posted by: Western Canadian at August 8, 2006 12:34 PM

The Ontario Conservatives under Mike Harris had every opportunity to nip this one in the bud but what did they do?

They pointed fingers at each other while the natives stood on the sidelines silently and quietly laughing amongst themselves.

If you go back in Canadian history you'll find in every case it was a conservative government that started the decline for every hot button topic we have today.

As a prime example it was Diefenbacher's cancellation of the Avro Arrow program that started the ball rolling that is causing the continuing decline of our armed forces.

Posted by: David Brown at August 8, 2006 12:35 PM

Warwick: i think tar & feather is too soft besides some soft on crime lefty judge would only let him go. The sad part of it all is the guy is leading in the polls, go figure.
Tied with Bob Rae, ya your bang on there to close to call.

Posted by: bryanr at August 8, 2006 12:37 PM

Warwick: i think tar & feather is too good for him besides some soft on crime lefty judge would only let him go. The sad part of it all is the guy is leading in the polls, go figure.
Tied with Bob Rae, ya your bang on there to close to call.

Posted by: bryanr at August 8, 2006 12:39 PM

Just *LOVE* the inclusion on the West Bank Gaza Strip Arab flag there.

Neither have a legitimate land claim.

Posted by: markpeters.ca at August 8, 2006 12:43 PM

I just copied and sent these pictures to Stockwell Day. Is he not responsible for public safety?????
Everyone should send a copy to their MP! Ask for their comments on this.........

Posted by: MaryM at August 8, 2006 1:20 PM

I will NOT say anything politically incorrect. I will NOT say anything politically incorrect. I will NOT....I guess we don't need to worry about losing any Harper votes around those flags.

/sarc off

Posted by: Mike Schmidt at August 8, 2006 1:48 PM

The OPP are on the hunt for a fugitive near the Cayuga courthouse and could use the public's help...

http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/breakingnews/breakingnews_6771118.html

My bet is on the fugitive...

Posted by: SickandTired at August 8, 2006 2:03 PM

I think that this situation is under the provincial gov't - ie - McGuinty, who has already shown us that he is totally incapable of dealing with it. His tactic is akin to the leftist tactic in the ME: - do something fast to shut them up.

Apparently the Six Nation's official reaction to the judge's order to leave - is a refusal. After all, they don't consider themselves citizens of Canada - even though they accept our money.

I don't think they are interested in negotiations with anyone. And, if they say that they did NOT cede the land 200 years ago, then, what have they been doing about this situation for the past 200 years?

My speculation is that the perpetrators are simply and only, a bunch of thugs; their agenda is to obtain publicity - a form of power - and link up with other native-thug types across the country. It's a mode of easy money, easy power and not much else. Would they develop the land if it was 'theirs'? Would they farm it? Would they build homes on it? What would they do? Probably nothing - for such actions don't generate publicity and emotions.

Posted by: ET at August 8, 2006 2:08 PM

The sight of the flag desecration really tics me off.

The Maple Leaf flag is a bit of a Lib invention but it has grown on me over time, especially after seeing all the blood and tears Canadians have spilled beneath that flag in the WOT.

Re: Burning the flag.

I gotta admit, one of my favorite pics from the WOT is that guy lighting himself on fire while trying to burn the Stars and Stripes.

I think someone at Caledonia may have also seen that pic as so far the Indians have stuck to tearing the Maple Leaf flag up.

Posted by: concrete at August 8, 2006 2:09 PM

"I wait with breathless anticipation at the CBC's coverage of this. Too bad my TV has a CBC parental block. Will someone, with a stronger stomach than I, keep us posted?"
Posted by: Cheri at August 8, 2006 11:00 AM

I managed to stomach the CBC news at 2:00 pm and they had a live quote from Mr. McGuilty (who is in Niagara Falls today). His comment was that his government will obviously have to review the court order and he will have to talk to the Prime Minister again - as the last time he and the Prime Minister spoke, they were both in agreement that the best way to resolve the issue was at the negotiating table.

Anyway, there isn't any real hurry. The crisis is important enough that the governments negotiators are off on 3 weeks of vacation. Negotiations are not set to resume until August 24th.

Posted by: SickandTired at August 8, 2006 2:15 PM

David

Thank you for the perfect example of left-wing absurdity. Your post shows exactly why the liberal left needs some time in the political wilderness. When something goes badly, there's always someone else to blame, isn't there?

What about the idea of decisive leadership for the good of the general population of your constituency? Who could Dalton call to learn about such things??? Someone in Ottawa, perhaps?

Posted by: Rob R at August 8, 2006 2:16 PM

I betcha the judge's orders will NOT be obeyed this time, either. Maybe Dolton McPussy will invoke the Notwithstanding Clause to avoid the judge's meddling in his racial-preference activities which clearly violate the Charter, IMHO.

And, not to feed trolls, but I note that David Brown fails to provide any evidence to bolster his claims about the Harris gov't. To my knowledge, the Harris Tories cracked down on the terroristic behavior of the few Indian extremists who tried to get their way regardless of the law and the Charter. There never was a Caledonia-type interracial crisis under the Harris Tories. If DB can prove there was, let him. I hold not my breath. Back to work now.

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at August 8, 2006 2:19 PM

"We have had a simple view of life in that we expect those we put in charge of our peace actually take their job seriously and intend to do it."

Right on, Snowbunnie. I'm sure these thugs were bullying their fellow students and teachers in grade school. As "Aboriginals"--Natives, Indians, whatever--are a protected group, not held to the high standards the rest of us are expected to adhere to, administration would have given them and their, most likely, activist parents all kinds of leeway. Behaviour codes don't apply to these "Canadians", though they receive far more public $$ than the rest of us lackies.

The apathy of far too many acquiescent, flabby (too comfortable) Canadians has allowed this to happen.

How the mighty have fallen.

Posted by: lookout at August 8, 2006 2:20 PM

The blame falls squarely on the shoulders of our Missing in Action Ontario government.

Time for them to get their heads out of the sand or somebody's going to boot them in the rear! (Hopefully the voters).

Posted by: Joanne C. at August 8, 2006 2:26 PM


Isn't it funny how when the courts declare some liberal talking point the new law of the land (despite it not being found in any actual laws including the charter,) there must be no questioning the court.

The court is the be-all and end-all of Canada.

To fail to drop to your knees and worship the judges every decree is anti-Canadian - until the court tells them to cross a special interest group in which case it's "Court? what court?"

Posted by: Warwick at August 8, 2006 2:27 PM

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/latestnews.html

Here we go again. Just as soon as somebody gets the least bit annoyed, out comes the matches and gasoline!

Posted by: nancy at August 8, 2006 2:46 PM

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/latestnews.html

Here we go again. Just as soon as somebody gets the least bit annoyed, out comes the matches and gasoline!

Posted by: nancy at August 8, 2006 2:47 PM

With the record of the McGoonty government we should be thankful they are on vacation. McGoonty has to tread water on the Indian file after all the flack they shoveled over Harris' handling of the Indians. If the Natives, Aboriginals, Indians, whatever , wish to claim half the land in Ontario the stage is now set, no opposition or fight from the great Dullard. Not only will he give them the land they claim, they'll do a payout to the lawful holder of the deed, it's only our money, remember. Of course add to that, the development and real estate on the claims . It's a collossal and absolute disgrace. One day someone with a guts/brain combination will sort this mess, no sign of that someone at this time.

Posted by: Liz J at August 8, 2006 2:54 PM

[quote]As a prime example it was Diefenbacher's cancellation of the Avro Arrow program that started the ball rolling that is causing the continuing decline of our armed forces.[/quote]

David Brown, as a serving member of the CF, I can assure you, the last thirty years of decline of our forces is the responsibility of the government that has been in power for the majority of that time, not the Conservatives.

Diefenbacher was a moron yes... It would seem that it is better to have a semi decent moron, the the craven two faced rat bastards we have been saddled with for the past too many years.

Interesting to see a PM that actually keeps promises. What a novel idea.


Posted by: Jeff at August 8, 2006 3:11 PM

What utter stupidity you people are displaying.

The power to negotiate this deal is the federal government: ie., your flabby messiah, Stephen Harper.

It's a First Nations land claim. Go do some serious reading about the federal government's dilatory response to native land claims and then come back and apologize for being such morons.

Posted by: thwap at August 8, 2006 3:14 PM

Thanks for the update sick and tired, as am I. Particualarily of situations such as this: "His tough talk would be more convincing if he threw a few high ranking officials in the slammer for contempt of court." INDEED Kate!

Or truisms such as this: "Anyway, there isn't any real hurry. The crisis is important enough that the governments negotiators are off on 3 weeks of vacation. Negotiations are not set to resume until August 24th." I shudder to think of what will happen in the meantime, which in bureaucratic time, is about half the speed of smell, to use Ron White's quote(?). An eternity for the families living there, including the poor gentleman who was stoned.

Posted by: Cheri at August 8, 2006 3:15 PM

Marshall still could toss some of the brass responsible in their very own clink. no doubt that is in the back of his mind.

that would be interesting.

why do schmucks so quickly find themselves in similar location but those at the VERY TOP of the administration of justice and law seem to be impervious to its application ???

Posted by: Robert J at August 8, 2006 3:31 PM

Thwap,

only a provincial jurisdiction when convenient to you huh? Homey don't play that game no more.

Posted by: A.Cooper at August 8, 2006 3:31 PM

I want to hear Dalton McGuinty say he can't handle this file and call in the Feds. I want to hear him admit defeat.

Posted by: Joanne C. at August 8, 2006 3:34 PM

Uh, Mr. Cooper, unless the provinces have gotten the power to negotiate land claims, this is a federal matter.

I mean, I'm sorry that that's inconvenient for you and all the other self-pitying blowhards here, but it means that your dead-eyed weirdo Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, is the guy who is ducking his responsibility here.

Don't tell me that it takes a lefty to have to lecture Harper on "personal responsibility."

This is a federal matter and he's nowhere in sight.

And I'd guess McGuinty would want to avoid the absolute mess that Harris made of Ipperwash.

Our treatment of the First Nations Peoples is an international disgrace, and I guess it's thanks to the whining racists who post here that some cruddy politicians see that continuing to abuse Indians is a vote-getter.


Posted by: thwap at August 8, 2006 3:43 PM


Slightly off topic (although it does involve the government of Ontario...)

I just got my referral to a specialist (whose name and contact I've deleted as it's not the specific doctor's fault.)

Here is the email notification of the appointment:

The following is your referral appointment information. Be sure to take your Health Card to the appointment.

Please contact the specialist's office if you have any question or are unable to attend the appointment as scheduled.

Referred to:

XXXXXXXX, DR. L. (f)

XXX XXXXXX Street

P: XXX-XXX-XXXX

Appointment: 25-5-2007 [Fri May 25, 2007]

Appointment Time: 10:30 AM. *You can call Dr. XXXXXXX and request to be

placed on a cancellation list*

Notice anything that doesn't seem quite right? Why yes, that IS an appointment for May 25, 2007.

Posted by: Warwick at August 8, 2006 3:50 PM

Thank God none of you are the politicians in this Ontario, because every one of you has advocated for an escalation of this situation.

If you were Dalton M you too would all be afraid to be the person identified in canadian history as the person that stoked up the flames to make another "Oka".

Thats why none of YOUR favorite "conservative" politicians have jumpeed into the fray. They too are afraid of being labeled as the instigator of this situation. Thats why no politician have labelled the protestors at caledonia as "terrorists" as many of you have.

So people your comments are unrealistic, please keep things real.

I'm surprized that "Kate" keeps a daily note on this situation. It makes me believe that "Kate" prefers a confrontational, violent approach to solving situation. This is true because she never provides the legal land claim context in her blog. "Kate" wishes to keep all of you in the dark on this issue.

So please act responsibly, act like a politician who has the best interestsa of all his/her constituents in mind - First Nations and non-First Nation.

Posted by: Beardy's Cree at August 8, 2006 3:52 PM

unless the provinces have gotten the power to negotiate land claims, this is a federal matter.

If that is true, why did the province butt in and buy the land?

Posted by: Joanne C. at August 8, 2006 3:52 PM

"What utter stupidity you people are displaying.

The power to negotiate this deal is the federal government: ie., your flabby messiah, Stephen Harper.

It's a First Nations land claim. Go do some serious reading about the federal government's dilatory response to native land claims and then come back and apologize for being such morons.

Posted by: thwap at August 8, 2006 03:14 PM "

" You people" ?? " First Nations" .." Such Morons"???
One assumes that those commenting here are Canadian or at least resident. In light of that assumption one would think that those of us who express outrage, dismay over blatant criminal behaviour and acts against law abiding citizens are somehow apart enough from the rest of Canada to be catagorized as " YOU PEOPLE" ??!!
I seriously doubt that. For how Caledonia goes so goes the rest of us peaceful, law abiding citizens who most days find it impossible to raise any interest from the OPP until they start fighting back. Having begun to fight back, mind you, because they have watched their OPP do absolutely NOTHING to protect them from criminals.
WHEN THEY DO FIGHT BACK the OPP then move to protect the CRIMINALS.
And WE are "morons" for objecting to what every right thinking person would object to: the abject rejection of OPP responsibility unless it is to protect native criminal behaviour.
Let's get it straight:
First Nations ... that is a misnomer deliberatly injected into the vocabulary for one purpose: to give a tawdry collection of 'tribes' more validity than they ought. There has NEVER been a FIRST nation on Canadian soil. There were tribes of various sizes and political and cultural makeup. They never ever fit the description of "Nation" ever. They fought among themselves and lived a primitive life and in some cases , still do.
Their validity has been bourne out of an apologist government who seem to think we all owe everyone who ever breathed an apology for taking a land and making something out of it.
If the Indian tribes wished to be a 'nation'they could have done so many years before the white man arrived, but they did not.
Many behaved like savages and still do. Many were decent and honourable and still are. Much like the makeup of any group of people.
But lets , once and for all, get over the notion that the 'land claims' are anything but what they are: An attempt to replay and rewrite history and gain land that does not belong to them so whitey can feel 'cleansed' about conquering the west and making something good out of it for the entire population and for future citizens.
Natives were owed some retribution for wrong doing in the past and that has mostly been dealt with as the Douglas Creek land had already been dealt with and sold.
Just because some militants think they can take this issue and demand what is not theirs any longer is no reason for the complete and utter breakdown of our society and order.
THIS is what the McGuinty government and the OPP as their enforcement arm has allowed to happen.
THEY have abandoned their responsiblity on every level.
Government has the responsibility to protect it's citizens. First and foremost.
Unless the Ontario government has been sworn in as members of the Six Nations tribe they have been busy protecting the wrong people.
As for Stephen Harper our illustrious PM. The only time I want to see him involved is when he sends in the troops to remove these miscreants from land that does not belong to them and restore peace and order in Caledonia. And THEN take a switch to the McGuinty government and the OPP.... but then I think the citizens of Ontario will take care of that nicely next time around!

Posted by: Snowbunnie at August 8, 2006 3:54 PM

"So please act responsibly, act like a politician who has the best interestsa of all his/her constituents in mind - First Nations and non-First Nation."

I think that the "non-first nation" residents of Caledonia would have a good laugh at this statement.

Posted by: multirec at August 8, 2006 3:56 PM

"unless the provinces have gotten the power to negotiate land claims, this is a federal matter."

Negotiating land claims is under provincial jurisdiction.


Posted by: Kate at August 8, 2006 3:57 PM

Beardy,

I suppose that expecting all citizens to obey the law is too much for some of our "citizens" to deal with so the rest of us should just take it?

What happened to some people 200 years ago should have no bearing on what the law does to lawbreakers in 2006. I expect that lawbreakers will be arrested and put in jail - not rewarded with my money. If they resist violently, I would expect dead bad guys the same as any other criminal. I don't care if they're occupying some land or a bank. Violent thugs should be shot dead. Their long-lost ancestors be damned.

Posted by: Warwick at August 8, 2006 3:58 PM

Small technical point: the courts do not have the mechanism for enforcing the law....that is the job of the Crown/government and the police. So...why isn't the law/court order being enforced???

Natives are the responsibility of the federal government but the land to be handed over is under provincial jurisdiction. Neither government can duck the issue.

Posted by: JH Pennington at August 8, 2006 4:00 PM

Beardy's Cree:

I hear what you are saying...and I am even a little (just a little) sympathetic to the idea that no one wants to be seen as setting up "another Oka."

But, I don't think that the people here are chomping at the bit to see an escalation just for the sake of an escalation. Rather, people are cheering on the concept of the rule of law reigning supreme.

Let's face it...this is a case of Law and Order vs. Political Correctness ("sensitivity"). If myself and a group of other people of European, non-special-interest heritage were to set up barricades on some chunk of land and claim that a 200 year-old sale is null and void or never happened...you wouldn't even need a court order. The residents would call the police and me and my "brothers and sisters" would be history. If we lit tires on fire, they'd come for us in riot gear. If we overtly threatened violence, they would bring in tactical teams and - if it got bad enough - kill us.

Everyone knows this.

But, in this Caledonia case, there is a court order. And it is not being respected by politicians or the police. The implications are that our own judges face a mutiny from those who are supposed to be their hands/eyes/ears when it comes to enforcing the law. That means a total loss of the rule of law. I'm not being extreme...that's what it is. That's terrifying.

I see the people here - who are advocating "getting tough" as simply taking a stand and hoping (against hope) that this clash between people who want to get elected and those entrusted to maintain law and order comes to a conclusion where law and order wins.

In other words, they just want to see these natives treated like everyone else. Isn't that a great idea?

Posted by: bryceman at August 8, 2006 4:06 PM

NO ESCALATION TOWARDS VIOLENCE PLEASE. If thats what you propose than you're no better than those people cutting up the flag.

Posted by: Beardy's Cree at August 8, 2006 4:07 PM

escalation towards violence? Like attempted murder? Been done already. By the "natives."

Nice try but the violence has been committed already. The rest of us are pissed off about it and want the criminals in jail. The OPP/Ontario Government are paid from out tax dollars and are supposed to be responsible for maintaining law and order - not appeasing terrorists and criminals just because they're "native."

Sorry pal, no go.

Posted by: Warwick at August 8, 2006 4:11 PM

Mob rule is inherently violent. What else could it possibly be? And I was watching TV the morning the mob forced the OPP off the land. I realize some claim that was a peaceful protest, but what would have happened if the cops had resisted as they should have? I suppose bank robbery is non-violent unless somebody resists.
People like Cree enjoy the passive/agressive approach of mob tactics - push decent people around until they resist, then scream about violence.

Posted by: earl trossachs at August 8, 2006 4:16 PM

Unfortunately, what has happened here is that by virtue of the McGuinty government and the OPP hierarchy shirking their respective duties, we now have a situation that pits natives against non-natives.

By doing nothing, the tension has escalated. The natives may or may not have a legitimate land claim. And as John Tory said on a recent talk show, waiting for a 100 years to have something settled is not acceptable. But he said neither is the act of ignoring the rule of law in this country.

And it seems the Liberal government is part of a deliberate attempt to do just that.

Posted by: Joanne C. at August 8, 2006 4:24 PM

Yo! Snowbunnie! Stop hyper-ventilating and think for just one precious second. Holy Smokes!

The Six Nations occupied that land, and the very next day, the Kaledonia Krybabies Koalition was demanding that the OPP clear them thar Injuns out.

This inspite of the tragedy of Ipperwash, where, if you'll remember, an OPP sharpshooter shot and killed the unarmed Dudley George. Remember that? it was in all the papers? The Ipperwash Inquiry is still going on, and ... wait for this ... just like at Oka, just like at Burnt Church, the same as at Ipperwash, the courts later decided that the First Nations peoples were right, and the governments were wrong, wrong, wrong.

But hey, whatever floats your boat. The First Nations (not, as you put it: "A tawdry collection of 'tribes,'") are laughing all the way to the homeless shelter, living it up at your expense.

Regarding negotiating land claims:

http://www.laa.gov.nl.ca/laa/landclaims/page3.htm

"Only the federal government has the jurisdiction to accept land claims for negotiation. Once an Aboriginal group declares its intention to submit land claims they may request a grant from the federal government to prepare the support material. When claims are submitted, the federal government must assess them based on federal policy and on relevant decisions from the courts. If the federal government accepts land claims as the basis to negotiate it invites the province to participate in negotiations."

Regarding the federal record on land claims:

http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/060508-2301.asp

"Six Nations residents have been pursuing their claim to the 40 hectares near Caledonia through the courts and treaty system since the mid-1990s. However, Wesley-Esquimaux said one problem with resolving treaty disputes is it typically takes a decade just to complete the initial research.

The result is situations such as Caledonia. 'Part of the reason they occupied it is they know if they let [the developer] go ahead and develop this land then it’s gone. So the reality for First Nations across Canada is that they have to take a stand where they can,' said Wesley-Esquimaux, adding there are hundreds of outstanding aboriginal land claims nationwide."

Regarding your statement that these claims are just an attempt by the First Nations to rip us off, ... this is a free country, and you're free to be as ignorant as you like. But it doesn't mean that nobody can call you on it.

Posted by: thwap at August 8, 2006 4:30 PM

Thwap, grow up. Labelling an entire group as racist, when none of the behaviour listed comes close to such is amateurish and idiotic.

The land claim could and should have been handled more civily by both sides from the begining, as it stands now, attacking an 89 year old is certainly not going to lend itself well to a peoples that are claiming grievance... Of course there are a series of other idiotic incidents, which we could sound off at each other, but frankly, I am not the kind of guy to go measuring "who has the greatest grievance".

If the FN people are serious about negotiating, then it is time they have shown a serious sign of that willingness. To date, it has not come. In fact, we see in today's MSM that they are willing to escalate again. Mistake. My sympathy for the lot in Caledonia ran out in May.

One country, one set of rules. The double standard, and entrenched racism in the current rules has to end.

-Reason

Posted by: Jeff at August 8, 2006 4:33 PM

If i hear "first nations" once more, im going to barf.
Obviously, those who aspire to this lofty designation do not deserve it in fact or in deed.
The whole thing is simple.
You break the law, you get jailed (at least)
The rest is just a lot of nonsense

Posted by: lee at August 8, 2006 4:47 PM

Racism is one of the most overused words today. It is often used when the correct term might be, for examples, ethnicist or classist.

Anyway, the whole thing stinks because McCrooky and the master of sleaze, David Peterson, pulled a fast one and guess who is left holding the bag? Go on, guess.

Why did Ken Hill lose out in a bid to buy the land when Henco won it? Why was it for sale? What did Hill want it for? Who sold it? If it is a legitimate claim, why wasn't that brought to light earlier?

Why was MPP for Brantford Dave Levac writing letters to the editor discussing the disposition of named parcels of land prior to any negotiations?

Why did McGutless buy people's houses near the site and tell them to vacate by October?

Who wins if a casino, as rumoured, is built there?

Who wins if property values continue to erode in Caledonia and if unrest continues?

Why would McSpineless initiate the purchases only after the House adjourned for the summer?

How are court orders allowed to be ignored, especially when they are directed at the government? That is one of the most shocking aspects of the case.

There is more to this than meets the eye but it stinks because it has been arranged by the most unfit government in the history of Ontario and I include Rae and Peterson on that list.

It's also set one heck of a precedent, so look forward to similar corrupt situations developing in a field near you. If rioting and violating the rule of law pays, why would you go through the proper channels?

I hope nobody votes Liberal in Ontario next time because I'll have to move - it's too painful to watch this bunch of crooks turn everything they touch into muck.

Posted by: Selma at August 8, 2006 4:57 PM

Jeff and lee, I'm with you.

BTW, might "thwap" stand for THe Wingnut Aboriginal Posse?

'Just wondering.

Posted by: lookout at August 8, 2006 5:00 PM

FIRST NATIONS!!!!

I really love how you people worship the rule of law when it's convenient for you.

I can see the judge wanting his rulings respected, I don't mind him, but you types are all for tax-revolts and defying the government when it's some "socialist" government trying to give you efficient public health care or something.

Anyway, that rule of law thing? It cut's both ways:

http://scottneigh.blogspot.com/2006/05/more-from-orkin.html

It's Andrew Orkin's letter about the rule of law ..

"It is far from clear that the Iroquois Confederacy members re-occupying their lands are legally in the wrong.

If they are, why has the federal government spent the last 20 years or so frantically evading having to account to the Six Nations Band Council in Court for the Crown's (mis)handling of the vast Haldimand Grant that it holds in trust for the Iroquois people?

It is time that Canadians remind themselves of ALL of the applicable law, not just the bits that seem to justify our occupation and takings of others' lands.

...

Respect for the law is not a one-way, natives-only street. Non-natives and their governments must respect the law too, and all of it."

toodles folks!!!

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot:

FIRST NATIONS!!!!!

Posted by: thwap at August 8, 2006 5:13 PM

I think the police should start arresting any or all of the people that do not leave that contested land. the civil unrest has been tolerated for far too long. throw them all in jail if you have to. i would be mad as heck if that was happening in my backyard...and it is, it's happening in Canada...if the provincials cannot solve this at once, the feds have to step in to take control.

Posted by: xena at August 8, 2006 5:59 PM

What, no Hezb'allah flag?

Posted by: Shaken at August 8, 2006 6:06 PM

the msm has done it again..it seems not one person has any real idea of what is really going on here...
let's look at some random tidbits..
1. not far from said disputed land is a native cigarette factory
2. said factory employs well over 100 people and generates plenty of revenue
3. convenience stores in eastern ontario showing declines up to 70% in legit smoke sales
4. mcliar and company claim smoking decrease in Ontario is because of liberal wizardry
5 bootleg smokes turning up in high schools, etc, prompting low level complaints from regional health authorities

Me thinks this whole thing has something to do with bootleg smokes, and the true number of kids, poor and elderly consuming them

thoughts anyone?

Posted by: kingstonlad at August 8, 2006 6:49 PM

Quote from CWC's site:
"All Canadians should be ashamed of themselves if they do not act - do you think democracy is FREE?"

Only thing I don't like about that is CWC is now blaming all of Canada or trying to put the guilt on us out West for Ontario's failures in fixing this...clean up your own backyard and don't include me bud...

This is happening in Ontario, you know, by that democratically elected party called the Liberals you moron's voted in.

It also happens to be the same province that has Toronto as it's capital.

But, I digress, try this protest in Alberta and see what happens...

Posted by: tomax7 at August 8, 2006 6:52 PM

Don't barf Lee, but ironically the term "first nations" is an oxymoron.

How can singlular "first" and the plural "nations" be in the same term?

Akin to the term Military Intelligence.

Besides, what nation(s)? The natives were constantly warring and killing each other, doesn't seem like a nation or first to me.

But hey, that's not PC think.

Posted by: tomax7 at August 8, 2006 6:58 PM

"BTW, might "thwap" stand for THe Wingnut Aboriginal Posse?

'Just wondering."

Oh! Thou hast cut me to the quick!

I notice that in this site's mutual-masturbation episodes there's a great hue and cry about how the left doesn't respond well to actual arguments.

Then, when you're provided with one, accompanied by links, that reveal your utter ignorance on the subject you've chosen to pontificate about, you respond with lame non-sequiturs or outright avoidance.

"Jeff," you chide me for labelling the vile garbage posted here as "racism." You seem totally unconcerned to labelling the First Nations Peoples "terrorists." Why don't you, and everyone else check out the online inquiries into the deaths of Dudley George, Neil Stonechild, or Betty-Anne Osborne? They're all easily found, and accessible.

Why don't you all honestly face the reality of racism in Canada and drop your self-pitying garbage and your laughable conspiracy theories?

Posted by: thwap at August 8, 2006 7:00 PM

Hey thwap, once again, I will suggest nicely to drop the generalisations, else one might start to think you are representative of the loony left.

The rule of law is not a thing of convenience to me, nor I suspect the vast majority here. It is the supposed rule of the land. If so called human rights types would perhaps put victims before criminals, none-sense like we are seeing now would be a little more unlikely.

The rule of law is a thing of conveinence for the childish left. One that is often trampled on and degraded to the point where the left can celebrate letting the likes of Whitmore walk the street.

Reap what you sow.

Posted by: Jeff at August 8, 2006 7:03 PM

Can someone tell me if the land in question was actually "sold"? I think I read a while back that the Crown did not really have clear title for the property in question. I have heard several "spins" on this, but until someone does some journalistic digging to find out just what gives with this land parcel and posts it in the media, I doubt anyone on this thread has any idea who actually owns the land. It would be a hoot if McSquinty and Co "The Crown" issued building permits through the local municipality on land the Crown did not have title to. Probably why Harper is steering clear of this - it's a McSquinty goof up.

Posted by: outsider-watching at August 8, 2006 7:06 PM

If I am not mistaken (I do not have time for the research at the moment) the lands were sold by the province, and there is a potential for a real claim to be laid.

My contention is the approach, ie waiting for the development to be nearly complete, is under handed at best.

Further, the violence perpetuated by both sides is unacceptable. What has to be understood, as right as the claim may in fact be, the violence was escalated on the side of the FN peoples first.

Further, the left malaigns the credibility of the OPP, by screeching about the wrongs of the OPP in this event, when they have been by all credible accounts doing everything possible to de-escalate the situation, with one group that wants nothing to do with de-escalation, and another that is scared, and hoping for a return to normalcy.

The OPP have been doing a commendable job till now, for the most part, and should be lauded and encouraged to continue to keep the peace.

Because this was "provincial" land to begin with, the ball is in the provincial court, despite the weak meanderings of one misguided individual posting here.

A peaceful solution is a must. There is enough violence in this wonderful little world of ours... It is bloody right time for us to correct many sins of our past, and bury the past. Those that can't get over the past, suffer, don;t bring the rest of this nation down with your selfishness.

Posted by: Jeff at August 8, 2006 7:19 PM

Something happened to my post.

Posted by: thwap at August 8, 2006 7:23 PM

What happened to your post? Something can be anything of a million things.

Posted by: Jeff at August 8, 2006 7:27 PM

I'm sure someone has already asked this question, but please enlighten me: How was this land sold to Henco in the first place? Was there not some kind of title search done? Was there not some kind of hint that this land was under dispute?

I would really appreciate any information about this. Thanks.

Posted by: Joanne C. at August 8, 2006 7:31 PM

...i miss this thing called "Dominion of Canada"

Posted by: tomax7 at August 8, 2006 7:51 PM

For those of you looking for historical/legal information, go to CAW site; then either:

1. go to Bottom lefthand side and use citizens of caledonia . ca link, which is above revolving blue mail box or:

2. on CAW site, in same bottom horizontal column is 'documents' including historical claims, legal actions/decisions etc.


For those who are claiming this site and others are inflaming the situation; BULL! A combination of in-action has inflamed it, including police standing by, refusing to come to aid citizens/bystanders when they are physically attacked or had their property stollen. If the situation had been reversed, we all know the 'law' would have been applied to it's fullest extent. There is a double standard being applied because politicians are afraid of another Ipperwash incident.

Does anyone know for a fact if; Gwen Boniface related to Ken Hill or not?

Posted by: Cheri at August 8, 2006 8:13 PM

Does anyone know the name of the lawyer in Saskatchewan who had a couple of class action lawsuits going? One was for Telus customers.

I would like to contact him in regards to the our legal rights/interests of Canadians in this situation with respect to the precedence, if any, set by these secret negotiations, (who will ultimately pay) and the lack of respect/enforcement of our laws and courts.

Posted by: Cheri at August 8, 2006 8:42 PM

Joanne and outsider:

Henco had clear title to that property just the same as the rest of the people have clear title that are sitting on the very same land claim "The Plank Road". The Henco property is just a teeny-weenie piece of this whole claim. As we speak, on this same land claim there is being built an A&W, Shoppers Drug Mart and Mark's Work Wearhouse.(There were rumours of native interference but they are still going ahead).

Even though Hennings satisfied all legal issues with regards to getting approval from the elected Band Council and getting the archeological survey completed, the protesters "reclaimed" the land.

Now, of course, it is "sacred" land with thousands of bodies buried. That is why the natives have dumped loads of stone to make a road and roar ATV's all over the place at all hours of the day and night. At last report Ken Hill has constructed "a variety store" on the land (I guess the moratorium on building does not apply to the natives).

They have taken over the houses that are in various states of being completed and we notice that the lights are on (gee..who is paying for the electricity)and hey...if you need a little refreshment, just open up the fire hydrants and let them run all day.

Just for fun read Steve Janke's information with respect to some of the people linked to this reclamation.

Have fun reading!



Posted by: nancy at August 8, 2006 9:43 PM

yo, brucey. BRUCEY. the retired cop, ya you.

tell me again who the 'asshole' is. the opp standing by doing nothing and getting all this flak, or me for pointing out the many other failings and malfaescence by cops everywhere? hmmm?

YOUR word not mine !!!

speaking of 'words' the 'word' is boniFARCE.

Posted by: Robert J at August 8, 2006 9:57 PM

Nancy, thanks! That's all very interesting. It looks as if the natives don't really have a legal claim here at all. I am shocked that this type of thing is actually happening in Canada.

It has really undermined the confidence of the general public in government and law enforcement, IMO.

Posted by: Joanne C. at August 8, 2006 10:00 PM

Fresh sockeye salmon is now available on the Westcoast - $10 a fish ... no limit. If they run out today they will have more tomorrow.

Posted by: ural at August 9, 2006 12:01 AM

Having several OPP officers as friends, I can assure Robert (when he is done foaming at the mouth that is) that the officers on scene are doing every damn thing possible to keep the greater peace in Caledonia.

I can assure you Robert. There are far greater things going on in your neck of the woods, then you won little sphere of influence (which, based on that out burst, I have to say is thankfully small).

Posted by: Jeff at August 9, 2006 12:56 AM

Jeff,

While you're masquerading as the voice of reason, you might want to chide those folks tossing the word "terrorist" around with gay abandon. Once more (for emphasis) the First Nations were forced into confrontations at Oka, Burnt Church, and Ipperwash. Each time they were found to be in the right. If they'd listened to the Indian haters and been polite, their treaty rights would have continued to have been violated. It's the same durned think in Caledonia.

Here's some links I was talking about earlier:

http://www.ipperwashinquiry.ca/index.html

http://www.stonechildinquiry.ca

http://www.helenbettyosbornefdtn.ca/

http://www.amnesty.ca/campaigns/sisters_overview.php

Oh, and "Tomax7," uh, who said "first" was singular?

Ever hear a sentence like: "We were the first people there." -? Is your command of your the language really that bad? Here's another: "You are the first four contestants on 'The Price is Right'!"

But I also notice some rilly, like, smart people here, saying the OPP should clear'em on out, but without causing another Ipperwash. Maybe you could explain how that would be possible.

Posted by: thwap at August 9, 2006 1:47 AM


The Six nations Band Council on the issue of the "Plank Road Claim" were handling it as an accounting issue as in "where did the money go". At no time, were they ever going to take it back....it would be a monetary settlement(if they won which was doubtful). However, I believe that they do have some legitimate claims in the Haldimand TRact...this probably isn't one of them.

It's the protesters that decided to take it over. They answer to no one including their own Haudenosaunee Chiefs....that is quoted by one of the Chiefs as well back in May. Their agenda is far greater than getting back DCE...that is just a ruse that has worked for them...they want to take back governance of Six Nations which would mean that they would have great monetary control.

Please do some reading on the ever delightful Mohawk Warriors and the Iroquois (not just the last 200 years that they want you to read but go back about 400 years)....such a warm and fuzzy group....some things never change.


Posted by: nancy at August 9, 2006 7:07 AM


The Six nations Band Council on the issue of the "Plank Road Claim" were handling it as an accounting issue as in "where did the money go". At no time, were they ever going to take it back....it would be a monetary settlement(if they won which was doubtful). However, I believe that they do have some legitimate claims in the Haldimand TRact...this probably isn't one of them.

It's the protesters that decided to take it over. They answer to no one including their own Haudenosaunee Chiefs....that is quoted by one of the Chiefs as well back in May. Their agenda is far greater than getting back DCE...that is just a ruse that has worked for them...they want to take back governance of Six Nations which would mean that they would have great monetary control.

Please do some reading on the ever delightful Mohawk Warriors and the Iroquois (not just the last 200 years that they want you to read but go back about 400 years)....such a warm and fuzzy group....some things never change.


Posted by: nancy at August 9, 2006 7:09 AM

yo, jeffy:

does 'every damn thing possible' include leaving their OWN compadres to fend for themselves?

feel free to browse caledoniawakeupcall.com for details.

(foam foam foam) LOL !!!

the FACTS sirrah are that the opp negligence is the biggest contributing factor to the longevity of this dispute; the severity is the responsibility of the natives.

Posted by: Robert J at August 9, 2006 8:15 AM

Twhap, I remember Oka better then you think. It was a rightous claim. However, make no mistake as to who percipitated the violence. It was the Mohawks in place, not the Quebec police (though the reaction from the police was idiotic).

At least this time the "warriors" are not running around showing off their AK47's and SKS's in public. Make no mistake, they are no doubt their.

The protestors in location currently have proven by action and words that they do not want a peaceful solution. Having said that, if a peaceful solution is not possible, then for the greater good they MUST be removed by force.

Suck it up butter cup. They are wrong. The hypocrisy of the situation stinks to high heaven. If they were serious about the claim, they would have occupied the land prior to the houses going up. Not after they were almost done. Secondly, their collective behaviour during the "occupation" is beyond deplorable.

Nice to see you have not changed at all since you left that den of idiocy an mypoia from babble.

Posted by: Jeff at August 9, 2006 8:53 AM

Robert, there are facts to the situation, which you neither see, nor do you apparently want to see. Get over yourself.

Posted by: Jeff at August 9, 2006 8:55 AM

They precipitated the violence? They occupied land at Oka that was rightfully theirs. The Quebec government stupidly sent the police in when they knew that some of the Warrior Society were there.

It's the governments that send the cops in as the front-line to bust up legitimate protests.

I wonder how many people slagging the Six Nations here would countenance allowing the feds and/or provincial governments to steal their land and to attack peaceful occupations of the stolen lands?

Because that's what it means when you're calling for the OPP to clear these people out with no negotiation.

The truth of the matter is that I'm not blind to the excesses of the First Nations protestors. But I recognize that given the duplicity of Canadian politicians, given the societal trauma of residential schools, the sixties sweep, the 24-take down, etc., ... that the Natives have a right to be angry.

The onus is on us, the settler society, to prove our goodwill, our reasonableness. Not this crybaby whining about a peaceful occupation that didn't turn ugly until we made it turn ugly.

Do you remember what happened to Clifford George's mother's grave at Ipperwash? He volunteered in World War II. He served Canada, and came back to find his lands gone, and when he looked at where his mother's grave had been, he saw that it'd been dug up, and the place was filled with trenches where white recruits were "playing soldier" in basic training.

The First Nations suffer from the highest rates of unemployment, suicide, poverty, homelessness. Now, some people here want to pretend that this is because the Natives are a degenerate race, unfit for modern civilization. That's racism.

It's rather because this society has prevented the First Nations from either keeping their traditional way of life, and kept them from fully joining ours. (We tried to drum the "Indian" out of them, without really wanting to hire them, or allow them to participate fully in our society.)

It's up to us to be reasonable. Not them.

I find it amusing that you accuse babble of myopia given the complete and utter ignorance about the history of Canadian-First Nations relations exhibited here. You'd think if these people were so passionate about these issues that they'd bother to do 10 minutes research of bigoted websites.

Posted by: thwap at August 9, 2006 9:43 AM

I gave this issue up as a loss for rational debate when I heard the official spokesperson for 'First Nations' on .570 talk radio a month or so ago. I think her name was Janie Jameson (, but her message was that First Nations don't recognize Canada as a country, so anything that gets decided by the courts or government (that they don't like) will be ignored. Pretty convenient fallback position.

So we're trying to negotiate a land claim with a group who will diregard any decision that doesn't give them what they want. Brilliant.

Posted by: John H at August 9, 2006 10:03 AM

It's rather because this society has prevented the First Nations from either keeping their traditional way of life, and kept them from fully joining ours. (We tried to drum the "Indian" out of them, without really wanting to hire them, or allow them to participate fully in our society.)

How long ago did the "drumming" stop? It hasn't been happening in at least the last two generations (at least not at Six Nations).

How many people actually follow the Haudonosaunee way.... even the chiefs say they have no control over the protesters?

It is all a complete farce. The protesters are only "haudenosaunee" when it suits them. Do a chronological study of all of their antics at the reclamation site and you will soon see how hollow their words are. Why would any of us non-natives believe a word of their oral teachings from hundreds of years ago when they can't tell the same storey just days apart.

I know many wonderful natives....none of them are at that protest site. I know many wonderful non-natives...none of them are at the barricades.

Posted by: nancy at August 9, 2006 10:17 AM

Folks, there are only two responses possible to armed insurrection. Massive force, or surrender.

Your call. I don't care.

Posted by: mojo at August 9, 2006 11:24 AM

"The First Nations suffer from the highest rates of unemployment, suicide, poverty, homelessness. Now, some people here want to pretend that this is because the Natives are a degenerate race, unfit for modern civilization. That's racism.

It's rather because this society has prevented the First Nations from either keeping their traditional way of life, and kept them from fully joining ours. (We tried to drum the "Indian" out of them, without really wanting to hire them, or allow them to participate fully in our society.)"

We are paying through the nose for this 'society of first nations' to continue to live in abject refusal to join modern society and enjoy the democratic freedoms and responsibilities enjoyed by full citizens of this country!
Their 'chiefs' make all the decisions and collect an enormous sum of money from the taxpayer every year...and what is done with it? The chiefs use it as they see fit and the tribes can go straight to hell as far as they are concerned..as evidenced by the lack of any sense of responsibility on their part to see that their people are properly looked after.
IF they are to continue to insist on a tribal structure with the chief, council, being the ruling authority then their backward and un-educated way of life will continue to infinity.
As long as Canada accepts this as the way it should be instead of insisting that they assimilate with the rest of the country we will continue to pay enormous sums of money that is going down the drain of unapologetic tribal chiefs who use the money as they see fit.
Obviously what they consider fit and the welfare of their charges has little to do with the reality of the serious nature of the decline of their society.
Again, it is stated that this is all OUR fault.
IT is not. Indian tribes in this country are a conquered people, now insisting that we re-write history and cover their mistakes of the past.
We have done so to the tune of billions and billions of dollars and where has it gotten us?
A perpetual guilt trip every time things do not go the way the 'first nations' want them to go.
They hijack whatever they please and "Demand" ... just as a spoilt child will continue to demand from an over-indulgent parent..so do the tribes of this country.
Some tribes were smart enough to get a land treaty and were paid for the land they now own outright.
Others were cheated out of what was rightfully theirs and governments since have tried to re-pay.
And we have continued to pay and pay and pay.
We can never go back 200 years or 150 years. What was then was then. What is now is now and had better be dealt with wisely.
These Indians protesting at Caledonia did not own the land. It had been sold long ago and they do not have any claim on it regardless of what they say. They have taken this land by force and have victimized the owners and the people of Caledonia.
How dare you defend their criminal acts against law abiding citizens of this country.
IF the Indians want to live among us rather than take back every piece of land they claim is theirs ( just look at what they demand!!) then it is time to act like civilized human beings rather than the terrorists they have proven themselves to be.
The things that have happened in Caledonia with the OPP looking on and doing nothing is a travesty of justice to CANADIANS not the so called 'first nations' who insist on their cloak of victimization as cover for attempted murder, assault and many acts of terrorization of a peaceful residential community cursed only by their proximity to their illegal land grab and continued illegal squatting on that land.
Not to mention downed hydro lines, hydro towers , blocked road, burnt bridges...
YOU, thwap, take the time to learn what has happend in this town called Caledonia instead of coming here to chastize the normal outpouring of outrage against these criminals.

Posted by: Snowbunnie at August 9, 2006 11:38 AM

Snowbunnie,

You can keep spinning your delusions, but repeating the same thing over and over isn't going to make it true.

The first stage in overcoming your appalling ignorance is to understand that the Six Nations are not a conquered people.

They were allies of the British as late as 1812-14. They were never conquered.

If you don't even have a grasp of these basic facts, you mustn't presume that you are fit to comment on a situation such as this.

The fact of the matter is that they did accept lands in treaties and these lands were sold, or given to white squatters. The land in question was extorted from the Six Nations and the deal was signed by individuals from Six Nations who could be pressured to put pen to paper and legitimize what was a naked power-play.

There has been some snide comments about how the Native activists recognize their chiefs when its convenient for them. This reveals cluelessness about the dispute of the traditional chiefs and the clan mothers and the elected chiefs system that started in 1924.

Go read about the 1922 presentation of the First Nations at the League of Nations, Canada's response to that decision, and the 1924 assault on the traditional governance structures of the Six Nations peoples before you want to start talking about the sanctity of the rule of law.

Someone else said that the current generations of First Nations has no legitimate grievances out of the sins of the distant past. There are adult Indians who lost all contact with their families during the "sixties sweep." See if you can research that term. Also, the residential schools weren't shut down until the late-1960s. These wounds are still raw.

But omigod, ... there's a tire-fire in Caledonia! The Natives are chucking rocks back at the whites! Some of them are angry and impolite! Goodness gracious, ... if the rule of law isn't respected in this particular instance, Canada itself will descend into anarchy!! (But we can ignore our treaty obligations with no ill effects, ...'natch!)

You're asking these people to continue to be chumps and if they won't, you see fit to call them terrorists. Words and principles are cheap with the right-wing. That's something I've noticed after becoming interested in politics. Your credibility (so far as I'm concerned) was lost in the sands of Iraq and in the deficits of Mike Harris.

All I'm getting from you Snowbunnie is that you have a command of your own arguments based on your lack of vital information about the subject at hand.

Posted by: thwap at August 9, 2006 12:17 PM

Thwap
You can try and rewrite history as much as you like and make as many excuses for a bunch of hoodlums and terrorists but the bottom line is that in a civilized society the rule of law must be obeyed,
We have a judicial system in this country to deal with these matters and it must be respected or do we allow different groups to pick and choose when they will accept or respect judicial decisions - if so then you can be sure you are headed for anarchy.

Posted by: Peter Benyk at August 9, 2006 12:27 PM

Thwap. Interesting comments.
Definitely, the natives have some legitimate beefs about our society. (who doesn't, especially after the last dozen years of Liberal mis-governance and corruption)
But come on now. That in no way justifies the type of bullying and destruction shown by the protesters. Use the courts to settle the disputes for God's sake!

Posted by: Joe Canuck at August 9, 2006 12:41 PM

Peter Benyk,

What are the words that you have difficulty reading? I have said that we can't ignore our treaty obligations. So there's your "rule of law."

If I've rewritten history, kindly say where and how. I'm not going to respect your inane generalizations. I know that's probably a new one for you, but there you have it.

Posted by: thwap at August 9, 2006 12:43 PM

"There has been some snide comments about how the Native activists recognize their chiefs when its convenient for them. This reveals cluelessness about the dispute of the traditional chiefs and the clan mothers and the elected chiefs system that started in 1924."

I guess that would be my snide remark.

However, if the protesters can only act under the direction of the chiefs and the clanmothers, then why were they not part of the protest when it started? The chiefs and clanmothers were brought into this after the initial protest. They were not in favour of blocking the roads and railways in the first place.....please go check their website and I repeat myself even the chiefs have stated that they do not have control over the protesters.

The Confederacy is nothing more than a native theocracy. How can we as Canadians support this when not all natives are haudenosaunee? Thwap...please help me get this through my little pea brain. Don't tell me that it isn't our problem....these people live with us...they are not an island. It was the Christian Haudenosaunee who complained to the RCMP in 1924 about the corrupt Confederacy....nothing has changed!

Posted by: nancy at August 9, 2006 1:33 PM

"There has been some snide comments about how the Native activists recognize their chiefs when its convenient for them. This reveals cluelessness about the dispute of the traditional chiefs and the clan mothers and the elected chiefs system that started in 1924."

I guess that would be my snide remark.

However, if the protesters can only act under the direction of the chiefs and the clanmothers, then why were they not part of the protest when it started? The chiefs and clanmothers were brought into this after the initial protest. They were not in favour of blocking the roads and railways in the first place.....please go check their website and I repeat myself even the chiefs have stated that they do not have control over the protesters.

The Confederacy is nothing more than a native theocracy. How can we as Canadians support this when not all natives are haudenosaunee? Thwap...please help me get this through my little pea brain. Don't tell me that it isn't our problem....these people live with us...they are not an island. It was the Christian Haudenosaunee who complained to the RCMP in 1924 about the corrupt Confederacy....nothing has changed!

Posted by: nancy at August 9, 2006 1:33 PM

I have no idea why everything I post is coming up twice! Sorry for the confusion.

Posted by: nancy at August 9, 2006 1:56 PM

"The fact of the matter is that they did accept lands in treaties and these lands were sold, or given to white squatters. The land in question was extorted from the Six Nations and the deal was signed by individuals from Six Nations who could be pressured to put pen to paper and legitimize what was a naked power-play."

And,by your own words. SOLD their land.
There you have it.
In Caledonia, those lands were sold. It does not matter how the signatures got on the paper, bub. They SOLD their land. The RIGHTFUL owners of that land have been abused and so have the the citizens of Caledonia. You can go back to greivances real and imagined to the beginning of time and it will not change two things: The land in question in Caledonia was SOLD. The Six Nations no longer owned it.
Mohawk Warriors as I hear it moved in and took over the situation and occupied the buildings.
They have been blocking roads, burning tires, bridges and in general subjecting the residents of Caledonia to terrorist tactics since last March. The OPP has taken no action on behalf of the citizens of Caledonia even when ordered to do so by the court.
I simply do not care what the Indians want. It is not of any value whatsoever in this dispute. They SOLD the land. End of discussion.
Everything that flows out of the occupation of land that did not belong to them is a series of criminal acts.
PERIOD.
The ONLY reason this goes on is that the government does not have the backbone to stand up for legal peaceful citizens because the Mohawk warriors might cause trouble. Well, they HAVE caused trouble and have tried to commit murder in the bargain not to mention harrassing the citizens and haranging residents and business owners.
The government should have put a stop to it long ago and they did not.
Indian land claims can be argued 'til the cows come home, take themselves to the barn and milk themselves dry and it will NOT change the issues at Caledonia.
Illegal occupation of land not owned by the Six Nations. Terrorists terrorizing the residents and business owners of Caledonia. OPP doing absolutely nothing, ignoring court orders and acting as an arm of the Ontario government both of whom totally abandon their charge of protecting the citizens.
They are AFRAID of the Mohawk Warriors and everything they have done or failed to do shows that glaringly.
"Thwap" that around!

Posted by: Snowbunnie at August 9, 2006 2:36 PM

Snowbunnie,

You're an idiot. By my own words, the lands were extorted from them, and a few individuals whose ability to represent them was and is seriously questioned, were rounded up to put a veneer of legitimacy on the entire sordid affair.

Read the words in front of you, grab some facts, and stop wasting everybody's time.

nancy,

If you have a source about the Christians complaining about the corruption of the traditional band chiefs I would be interested to know what it is.

I think that I'm justifiably dismissive of hypocritical calls for the "rule of law," of racist and ignorant statements, and empty whining and demands. (For instance, people who believe that the OPP can, and should, clear the disputed lands, without causing another Ipperwash, but who when pressed are unable to describe how the OPP could possibly achieve this.)

If you can bring a fact-based argument to the table, I'm more than happy discuss it with you. But after Ipperwash, Walkerton, NAFTA, Iraq, Palestine, etc., etc., ad nauseum, I'm afraid that i have neither the patience nor the inclination to give right-wingers the benefit of the doubt. Hence my snarkiness.

Posted by: thwap at August 9, 2006 2:57 PM

Snowbunnie,

You're an idiot. By my own words, the lands were extorted from them, and a few individuals whose ability to represent them was and is seriously questioned, were rounded up to put a veneer of legitimacy on the entire sordid affair.

Read the words in front of you, grab some facts, and stop wasting everybody's time.

nancy,

If you have a source about the Christians complaining about the corruption of the traditional band chiefs I would be interested to know what it is.

I think that I'm justifiably dismissive of hypocritical calls for the "rule of law," of racist and ignorant statements, and empty whining and demands. (For instance, people who believe that the OPP can, and should, clear the disputed lands, without causing another Ipperwash, but who when pressed are unable to describe how the OPP could possibly achieve this.)

If you can bring a fact-based argument to the table, I'm more than happy discuss it with you. But after Ipperwash, Walkerton, NAFTA, Iraq, Palestine, etc., etc., ad nauseum, I'm afraid that i have neither the patience nor the inclination to give right-wingers the benefit of the doubt. Hence my snarkiness.

Posted by: thwap at August 9, 2006 2:57 PM

My source was in a masters paper written by a person with a very native name. However, I read it so long ago that I have no idea where I found it. (I know it was a google search) I will try again to find it but I am not going to spend much time.


Posted by: nancy at August 9, 2006 3:11 PM

Natives have little room to criticize Treaty obligations. If the country were to live up to treaty rights to the letter they would still only receive one horse, one plough, 5 dollars a year etc.
Their medical would be a first aid box containing some aspirin, guaze bandages and seneca root. On a good day they may be transported to Montreal hospital by canoe over a 300 mile journey.

Posted by: Peter Benyk at August 9, 2006 3:20 PM


Liberals ignore judges order: Caledonia residents fear 'all hell will break loose'

Ontario said today it will appeal a judge’s order to end negotiations in a five-month long Indian standoff. But residents fear ‘all hell will break loose’ if occupation doesn’t end. ...-
nealenews

Posted by: maz2 at August 9, 2006 3:23 PM

Thwap:

Found it although my memory sucks. His name is not remotely native sounding and they don't speak of corruption just that a minority of Christian Haudenosaunee wanted a more democratic government..silly Christians. Interesting comments in that section though with regards to the Mohawks.

Posted by: nancy at August 9, 2006 3:29 PM

"You're an idiot. By my own words, the lands were extorted from them, and a few individuals whose ability to represent them was and is seriously questioned, were rounded up to put a veneer of legitimacy on the entire sordid affair."

I thought by now you'd get a clue, noone gives a shit about "your own words".
Laws in this country are for everyone and the native terrorists aren't above them.
On a side note, I do believe that you've generously gone above Kate's three post maximum on one thread.
Summary: Give it up, nobody here is listening.

Posted by: multirec at August 9, 2006 3:34 PM

May I post more than 3....I actually live here and personally witness some of what goes on!

Posted by: nancy at August 9, 2006 3:37 PM

Land claims are jurisdiction of the provinces, why else would the provinces be getting in up to their eyeballs? It's up to the feds to do get into the constitutional stuff. Let's hope they do, but don't hold your breath. It's time to sort this out, we should not have to tolerate such behaviour.

Posted by: Liz J at August 9, 2006 4:03 PM

multirec,

didn't know about that rule. thanks for the info.

I don't care that you don't care about my words, so weez even.

I was just correcting somebody who kaynt reed.

I see i've reached my quota.

Posted by: thwap at August 9, 2006 4:05 PM

Thwap, you're continually looking at this (and most other subjects) subject from only one angle... A tactic that you and many others at that idiot trove called babble employ constantly.

The land claim at Oka was legit. I give you that. The forcable removal of the "warriors" from that site became legit and necesssary the second those idiots started walking the barricades at Oka with automatic weapons. A police officer was shot and killed by natives in that one (subtle hint, NONE of the quebec police were equipped with wheapons firing a 7.62x39 cartridge).

This scenario is gettting just as bad. All that is missing now is the parading around of weapons. Attacking people with baseball bats, and lacross sticks, tearing down hydro towers, setting fires, tearing up roads, moving into the houses on the occupied land, using the power, opening fire hydrants (which is a HUGE community safety hazard, as it drains the water pressure on that ENTIRE line... If there had of been a fire on that line while that hydrant was open, the ability to fight said fire would have been severly compromised).

The police have choosen to try and give peace a chance, and have extended HUGE lee way to the so called Six Nations police force, which has proven to be biased and incompetant. Yet people like you slander the police for the same reasons people on the other side of the barricades slander the police.

This one is either going to end soon, on peaceable terms that the province is attempting to offer (and to date has been snubbed on), or it will end violently. If the latter comes true, look not further then the Six Nations tribal elders for blame.

Children. They are all acting like children. If you think the rest of Canada is coming on side with this land claim, they are not. There is a deep wedge being driven deep here that is setting relations back 100 years, if not more. Perhaps if the childishness carries on, we can roll back 400 yrs and start fresh... Is this the thought pattern of the IDIOTS maning the barricades?

Posted by: Jeff at August 9, 2006 5:42 PM

Beardy Cree wrote:

Thank God none of you are the politicians in this Ontario, because every one of you has advocated for an escalation of this situation.

But just who would be responsible for the escalation?

What you are saying is that if the OPP enforced the court orders, the natives occupying the land would respond with violence - and therefore, it's better not to try to enforce the court orders!

That is called giving in to intimidation. And what message is that giving to other would-be native protesters? I'm afraid that if the Ontario government doesn't enforce the rule of law now, even with a violent response, we will see a future confrontation which will make Oka and Caledonia pale in comparison.

As for Dalton McGuinty being afraid to be the person "identified in canadian history as the person that stoked up the flames to make another Oka" - is it too much to ask of a politician to consider something other than his image?


Posted by: Barbara at August 9, 2006 5:43 PM

thwap: My command of English is pretty good, and while I do tend to screw it up once in awhile, the point is still there, but thanks for asking.

Anyway, back to your discourse on the incorrect usage version of the word "first".

You said: "We were the first people there" (well no, it should be properly stated "here" - keeping with the context of the discussion - as in we are talking about this country, here, where we sit in front of our computers - unless of course you are posting from outside Canada...but I digress).

When the term "we were the first…" is used in a context of a defined group of people, then yes, you are correct.

Unfortunately the word "nations" as in plural is not a defined group of people.

Besides, you already stated the plural tense with the word "WE" as in "we were...".

So in using the plural tense "nations" right after “we” is a double application or in layman terms, repeating yourself.

Akin to "more better", or "worser and worser"?

If you had said "we were the first members here", then that is appropriate, because again it defines a select or distinct group of people, as in a track team at a race.

Basically you are saying "we were the first nations here".

For that to be true, I have to ask, who actually is/was the first nation - as in singular reference then?

And secondly, what constitutes a "nation"? The natives back then (and still do) despise other tribes, killing, maiming and ransacking each other's gathering places (note: not to be confused with villages or other established places of gathering - must have made mail delivery a bugger. Oh wait, they were super advanced nation(s), using wireless communications even before white man thought of it - smoke signals...)

So yes, if you said "we were here first" - that would be a proper group usage term.

Unfortunately I still have to ask, which distinct group would you be referring to as "first nations" seems a bit vague?

Posted by: tomax7 at August 10, 2006 8:40 AM

...oh, and then there's the matter of who the Six Nations are...

Where they the first? As in like the NHL, the original six teams?

But, dang, that still refers to a distinct group of people.

OH well.

Posted by: tomax7 at August 10, 2006 8:46 AM

...so lessee - if Six Nations was first, that would make First Nations seventh, or last, therefore First Nations is not really first but Last Nations.

But if Six Nations were really First Nations, then First Nations would really be made up of six nations and the first First Nation would the be the real first nation and the sixth nation would be the Last Nation.

Or if First Nations were first then Sixth Nations would be second, so the Second Nations would be the Sixth Nations, not the sixth nation as that would the seventh nation, or Last Nations.

Dang this is so confusing...

Posted by: tomax7 at August 10, 2006 9:10 AM

Actually in the Caledonia situation the Six Nations didn't arrive in Canada until the 1700's.

Posted by: nancy at August 10, 2006 9:36 AM

Tomax7:
Thank you for your posts!
Very enjoyable with my coffee this morning.

Posted by: Snowbunnie at August 10, 2006 11:42 AM

Let's see.
They form illegal blockades.
They intimidate their neighbours with language and threaten violence.
They use violence against those who either dare to stand up to them and question their actions, or simply have the misfortune to get in their way.
They wantonly destroy public and private property.
They fly the flags of terrorist organizations, and imply solidarity with those organizations.
They weild baseball bats, etc, and hide behind masks (small wonder).

I say: Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck -IS A DUCK. These protestors are nothing more than a collection of hotheads, thugs, and wannabee terrorists.
And it's way past their bedtime - inside a few, well secured jail cells.

Posted by: Joe Canuck at August 10, 2006 11:56 AM

snowbunny:

Yes I did stay up all night....

;-)

...so lessee - if Six Nations was first, that would make First Nations seventh, or last, therefore First Nations is not really first but Last Nations.

Posted by: tomax7 at August 10, 2006 12:10 PM

“Jeff”

“Thwap, you're continually looking at this (and most other subjects) subject from only one angle... A tactic that you and many others at that idiot trove called babble employ constantly.”

And the people who are tossing the word “terrorist” around at the drop of a hat, the people who are saying that the First Nations have no legitimate grievances in Canada, and the morons who called for the OPP to clear the f’n Indians off the disputed lands the very next day after the occupation began, … these racists and fools have objectively considered all sides of the issue before they typed their dreck?

I would explain to you the qualifiers of my position, if only you were worth it. By reserving all your criticism for my supposed extremism and none for the hate-filled ignorance of most of the rest of the posters here, you have demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt your total hypocrisy. You don’t even know the significance of your own words.

“Tomax7”

An extended discourse revealing an exposed idiot, grasping at straws in a futile attempt to redeem itself.

My example sentence: “We were the first people there” was just that, an example. I’m not First Nations. Actually, I’ve pointed that out several times. I’ve never been on the “Price is Right” either. You can have hundreds of firsts you moron. You can have six, ten, twenty, etc., … The people who were living in the Western Hemisphere before the Europeans began to settle here are called “The First Nations” for that reason. Quit being such a contemptible ass.

“And secondly, what constitutes a "nation"? The natives back then (and still do) despise other tribes, killing, maiming and ransacking each other's gathering places (note: not to be confused with villages or other established places of gathering - must have made mail delivery a bugger. Oh wait, they were super advanced nation(s), using wireless communications even before white man thought of it - smoke signals...)”

So, are the Americans a “nation”? Were they a “nation” before their Civil War? Were African Americans part of that “nation” when they were being enslaved? During the period of French colonization, that country was racked by the wars of religion (The St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre). So, the French weren’t a nation? If you’re only trying to insist that the First Nations can’t be called “nations” because of their “savagery,” well, there’s two World Wars that I’d like you to go and find out about.

I realize that I’m well over my supposed quota of 3 posts per thread. But two people have made absurd responses to me, and I thought they deserved comment. Three posts, nay, one-thousand posts wouldn’t be enough to clear out the mental sludge exhibited in most of the threads here.

“multirec”

“I thought by now you'd get a clue, noone gives a shit about ‘your own words’ … Summary: Give it up, nobody here is listening.”

Really, thanks. I’ll remember that the next time I encounter another right-wing circle-jerk about how the Left is afraid of genuine debate. I realize this is futile. I’ve long-since given up caring about the stupid opinions and shameless lies of the right-wing myself. I just thought I'd disturb your blissful ignorance for the sake of doing it.

“nancy”

I hadn’t yet said anything about the Six Nations Christians for you to anticipate that I’d call them stupid. But with regards to corruption: the federal government has set up all sorts of elected band councils and they all appear to be corrupt as well. I’m interested in background, and legitimate points, but I’m done with this thread at long last.

So, live it up there “multirec.” Your bubble is probably as strong and safe as george w. bush’s.


Posted by: thwap at August 10, 2006 2:29 PM

Thawp, I stopped ginging myopic people like you any credit a long time ago.

What say to me, may have been worth something at one point. Since then, well see my above post. This is NOT a non-violent protest as you would lead us to beleive. It has been violent from day one, with everyhting from masked "protestors" beating people up for taking pictures, to burning private and public property, to vanadising an 89 year old's house.

You are a nauseating little troll thwap.

Posted by: Jeff at August 10, 2006 2:57 PM

Thwap:

I intimated that the Christians were "silly" not "stupid" and I was poking fun as in "why would any society in this day and age want to be burdened with democracy when they can in fact have a pseudo monarchy instead....like the haudenosaunee".

Posted by: nancy at August 10, 2006 3:11 PM

I noticed on NewsNet last night that the Ontario government are not only 'appealing' Judge Marshall's ruling but have undertaken a 'hit' campaign against the judge himself.
Why he doesn't throw their sorry asses in jail for contempt of court I really do not know.
If we are to take him seriously he should be able to back up his orders instead of hauling everybody back into court to 'explain'. Let them explain in handcuffs.

Posted by: Snowbunnie at August 10, 2006 4:44 PM

Really, thanks. I’ll remember that the next time I encounter another right-wing circle-jerk about how the Left is afraid of genuine debate. I realize this is futile. I’ve long-since given up caring about the stupid opinions and shameless lies of the right-wing myself. I just thought I'd disturb your blissful ignorance for the sake of doing it.

Do you know how utterly stupid the above comment is?
"Yep...See, the right won't debate but then again I stopped listening a long time ago".
Which is it ya dope?

Posted by: multirec at August 10, 2006 9:02 PM

Actually the six nations arrived in 1784, and they were only granted the right to live there, by the King's Proclamation (not the 1763 Royal Proclamation). They were not deeded the land, however, they could live there only at the King's pleasure, subject to change. The original land was bought by the Crown, from the Mississauga Indians who in the 1750's were displaced from N/Central Ont. by the Franco-Indian wars and arrived in that area. The original land was owned/controlled by the Erie's and Neutrals, who had slowly edded away, by ongoing wars with fellow tribes and the remaining few were absorded into other tribes.
In the surrender of 1841, the Confed chiefs signed documents giving up the right to live there and settling in the current Rez, which at this time, was now deeded to the Six Nations.
In the original land grants to loyalists in the Niagara region, the Loyalists were only given the right to live there at the King's pleasure, later they did finally get a deeded title.

Posted by: skyclad at August 10, 2006 10:07 PM

The left does not debate. It is not about being afraid. It is about not being able, as they are too busy assigning blame, and patting themselves on the back to be bothered with coming up with solutions and learning the facts.

Another disturbing thing about the left, is the myopia. The lefties I have encountered to date, all share this trait of beleiveing themselves as absolutly right, and hence, there is no need to try to understand a subject from different angles.

I consider myself very strongly left wing on some subjects, however, there are some subjects, like the rule of law, and common sense which have a vetoe over that, and hence, I refuse to hang out with the lefty crowd. I have found right wingers to be far more open minded, and willing to openly discuss change then left wingers.

Posted by: Jeff at August 10, 2006 10:11 PM

tomax7 the last nations would be the europeeons and those with First Nations lineage would be exactly that. Not very confusing at all except for those who have their heads so far up their asses that their sphincter is cutting off their air supply with an added side effect of a red neck.

Posted by: The Truth Will Come at August 12, 2006 5:30 PM

I live in this town Caledonia. The only pray we have is to support Judge Marshall. Every home in Canada should put a sign to support the Judge on it, if you care about Canada. This land is Canadian soil, not disputed land. We should not give up one inch of our land; they wouldn't. Caledonia is the front line fight for Canada, the sooner we realize the sooner we will want to end this.
Support Judge Marshall a true leader.

Posted by: jim smith at August 13, 2006 10:28 AM

I do support Judge Marshall. At some point he has to enforce his rulings. He has been ordering the natives off the land since March and nothing has been done to move them off.
This entire episode is an outrage that the judge should have been able to quash in the beginning.
When the Ontario government and the OPP stack themselves against the judge the judge then should have them taken off in handcuffs. If they refuse that, then call in the Feds and have the army enforce his order.

Posted by: Snowbunnie at August 14, 2006 12:14 AM
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