I might have believed this had it come from another source. This is likely disinformation promulgated for tactical reasons. Skepticism required.

Whoopsie!?! (But then- there are also those who claim that Israel was also planning to invade BEFORE their troops were kidnapped, (or captured-depending on where they were when they were grabbed).
P.S. Welcome to WW3

Israelis have been kidnapping, murdering, and torturing Palestinians (AND BRITISH CITIZENS) by the thousands for decades. For a change of pace, Israeli forces are now attacking Red Cross ambulances:

"The Israel Defense Forces said last night that Israeli fire hit an ambulance during fighting in the Qana area, east of Tyre."

www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/07/25/ambulance_drivers_tell_tales_of_horror/?page=2

Last time I checked attempted murder of Red Cross paramedics was not a Canadian value; neither is apartheid, terrorism, torture, ethnic cleansing, or human trafficking. These don't appear to be British values either:

British anger at terror celebration

The commemoration of Israeli bombings that killing 92 people has caused offence
The Times July 20, 2006

AS ISRAEL wages war against Hezbollah “terrorists” in Lebanon, Britain has protested about the celebration by right-wing Israelis of a Jewish “act of terrorism” against British rule 60 years ago this week.

The rightwingers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister, are commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of British rule, that killed 92 people and helped to drive the British from Palestine.

They have erected a plaque outside the restored building, and are holding a two-day seminar with speeches and a tour of the hotel by one of the Jewish resistance fighters involved in the attack.

Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: “We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.”

In particular they demanded the removal of the plaque that pays tribute to the Irgun, the Jewish resistance branch headed by Menachem Begin, the future Prime Minister, which carried out the attack on July 22, 1946.
...
Decades later, Irgun veterans are unrepentant. Sarah Agassi, 80, remembers spying in the King David Hotel.

She and a fellow agent posed as a couple. They danced tangos and waltzes, sipped whisky and wine while they cased out the hotel.

On the day her brother and his fellow fighters posed as Arabs delivering milk and brought seven milk churns, each containing 50kg of explosives, into the building. Ms Agassi waited across the street until her brother rushed out. She said that she then made the warning call to the British command in the hotel.

Sitting in the luxurious hotel lobby, she expressed no regret. “We fought for our independence. We thought it was the right way . . . If I had to fight for Israel, I swear even now I would do anything.”

www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,173-2277717,00.html

murray: is your suspicion of memri or Al-J?

having hezbollah dictate Lebanese policy is like having quebec run canada.

sorry, we do that dont we.

davie - not sure what your point is, but we've been in WWIII for a few years now. You're free to start the clock anywhere you want on the terrorist's atrocities timeline over the past 30 years. 9/11 suits me fine.

If Israel wanted to use that provocation to clean out the Hezbollah missiles that's fine with me too. Israel's very life depends and will always depend on planning and taking advantage of every scenerio. They don't get a second chance if they lose a war.

Considering the source is Nasrallah, I'm a little sceptical. Does anyone here know the proportion
of Christians in the Lebanese government and do you think they would give their approval. This
also shows the limits of Nasrallah’s analytical ability - given the Iran situation, I would expect
the Israelis would love to smash Hizballah (Iran’s proxy in Lebanon). Nasrallah has given them
the excuse.

How many soldiers have to be kidnapped before it triggers a response like Lebenon is now facing?

Nasrallah has screwed up big time. By underestimating the Israeli response he has effectively signed his own death warrant.

Once Hamass and Hezbolla have been administered their respective smart bomb enemas Nasrallah will face the unfortunate task of demonstrating to the class why a suicide bomber should not answer his cell phone while en route to the next target area.

John B: It's 12 Christians and 12 Muslims

Does anyone here know the proportion
of Christians in the Lebanese government and do you think they would give their approval.

It's entirely possible that Hezbollah's influence in the cabinet is disproportionate to their numbers. (Some quick googling indicates only one but the point stands.)

We don't hear much complaining about Hezb'allah coming from the Lebanese government these days. I think this is out of fear more than any complicity. That was a considerably sized smoking hole in the ground when Rafik Hariri was offed.

Nasrallah would like nothing more than to finally pound the wooden stake through the heart of the Lebanese government. Complicity in this abduction could do it, if Israel fell for it and went after the Lebanese government as well. It would be consistent in style to try to tar the Lebanese government with this.

I say, nice try Nasrallah. By the way, will you accept delivery of this bunker-buster? It's prepaid, air express delivery.

Att: Willy Nuancy Graham.

No nuance; not balanced; overwhelming, Willy.

Nuance - Nuance = Dead. ...-

DF force kills Hizbullah senior commander in southern Lebanon

GAMLA: News and views from Israel ^ | July 25/06

An Elite IDF force killed a Hizbullah senior commander near the villages of Maroun al-Ras and Bint Jbeil.An army source told Ynet that the terrorist was killed by soldiers when the force invaded a structure used by Hizbullah as a war room. ...-
free republic

Israel should just do a Joni Mitchell on that piece of Lebanon full of Hisbullah whackjobs

Put up a sign . . . "Under new Management
Pave paradise
Put up a parking lot

Find every Hisbullah hidy hole and put their big D9 bulldozers to work, Just bury all the complexes, all the entrances.

Flashback to the perfidy of the AdScam Chretien/Martin

hug-a-Muslim-Islamist-terrorist regime, aka Librano$. ...-

By Stephen Brown
FrontPageMagazine.com | August 26, 2002

It was another shameful Canadian moment.

Canadian Liberal Prime Minister Jean Chrétien added to his dismal record in the war on terrorism when his government just recently published a list of seven outlawed terrorist organizations in Canada. The murderous Hamas organization was not among them.

Hamas is the terrorist group responsible for the suicide bombings in Israel that have killed hundreds of innocent people. Its twin brother in murder and mayhem, Hezbollah, also didn't make the banned list. ...
Chrétien's inexcusable failure to ban Hamas from Canadian territory is in keeping with the lukewarm support America has received from its northern neighbor in its war against radical Islam. This is the same Prime Minister who slighted our American cousins by turning up so late at ground zero in New York to pay his condolences, despite Canada's close proximity to the United States both in historical relations and geography.

Moreover, after 9/11, Chrétien denied there were any terrorist groups operating in his country until his own security organization went to the media and contradicted him, saying there were 50 such groups on Canadian soil.

The Prime Minister also snubbed the World Trade Center tragedy when he refused to have an official memorial service for the almost 40 Canadian citizens who died in its rubble.

One of Chrétien's most cowardly acts since last September was his recent withdrawal of the 800 Canadian troops from Afghanistan in the middle of the fight, abandoning our friends and allies on the battlefield. ...-
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=2545

Cal2, Hezbollah is nothing like Quebec, even at its worst. Lebanon may be like Quebec with the separatist being the Hezbollah version, but even there, in Canada Political parties/agendas use political means to disrupt not terrorism

Neither Nasrallah nor Al-Jazeera is a beacon of truth. Are you also willing to swallow the assertion that Israel's reaction was solely predicated on the capture of two soldiers?

Commenter said: "In other news...Noah surprised by the amount of rainfall in recent days." ...-

Top Hizbullah official: Group Didn't Expect Israel To React So Strongly (DUUUUUH!!!)
Ynet

A senior Hizbullah official has said the group did not expect Israel to react so strongly to the capture of two Israeli soldiers. (AP)
via free republic

From CNN: White House gives Israel's forces between 10-14 days to finish dealing terror group 'strategic blow'.

Right, and how long have they've been in Iraq, Afg?

Hezbollah gunners are firing at the Golan Heights in an effort to embroil Syria in the fighting.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742628.html

While elements of the Lebanese government may have known...and I emphasize may...it would not have had official sanction. According to the interview it didnt.

As well, it would have happened anyway.

Nothing is simple in this region, and I wouldnt expect a simple answer. Israeli incursions to get rid of Hesbo is understandable, but there are limits.

Question is can you really get rid of them....only if the acumn can be filled legitimate soldiers from a legitimate Lebanese government.

Israel doesnt want to occupy, cant afford to occupy....if the Lebanese or Nato do not fill the void then Hesbo will be back in 2 years.

My preference is a Lebanese soldiers from a legitimate and functioning Lebanese government.

The broadcast medias portrayal of Lebanon as an innocent bystander continues, ignoring the fact that Hezbollah has 23 members in the Lebanese parliament, two cabinet ministers, an effective veto in that parliament, and, as Kate says, widespread support, particularly in the south where many of the wielders of Canadian passports lived full-time.

At another site, a commenter named Mary, who may or may not have been quoting an un-named historian who said -- or maybe she said, clear attribution is not her strong point, but the point still stands -- "In listening to those who concede Israel's right to defend itself through the use of force but urge 'proportionate response', I wonder what they mean by a 'proportionate response'..(..)..If the enemy is committed to the obliteration of your country, proportionate response would seem to mean that Israel should obliterate the Hezbollah. This is not, obviously, what the proponents of proportionate response mean."

Israel, by defending itself, is completly missing the point.

Nasrallah is an idiot. The second bloodiest war in history was waged over the death of one old man and his wife - and Nasrallah thinks that the abduction of two soldiers can't start a war?

What a pathetic mongrel.

Did you see the Fox news about Israel spying in the US and that they were selling drugs cocaine and ecstasy in large quantities. They had the DEA and other cops phone numbers and knew before hand what was going on and most got away.They sold these drugs all over North America. Terrorists is what Israel is and thats all they do is cause trouble around the world.

True Jews wouldn't even Vote in an Israeli election.

So there's more to those 5 Israeli's Dancing and celebrating on the roof top on 9/11.

Fox News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAoe26MaTew&search=fox%20news

the example is the tail wagging the dog.

quebec hasnt used terror for a few years. but they did repatriate one of the terrorists. is october 1970 so long ago?

Okay, this is getting ridiculous: The BBC is reporting - via an Israeli human rights group - that the Israeli army is now using human shields:

"The Israeli army has been accused of using Palestinian civilians as human shields in an operation in northern Gaza.

According to the Israeli human rights group, B'tselem, six civilians including two minors were subjected to the illegal tactic during an incursion into the town of Beit Hanoun last week.
...
Allegations over Israel's use of human shields have surfaced before. The last time they made headlines was during Operation Defensive Shield in the West Bank town of Jenin, four years ago.

The army denied its personnel systematically used civilians as human shields during that operation, but it did issue an order outlawing the practice. As did the Israeli High Court.
...
B'tselem says it is investigating reports of other, similar incidents in Gaza during the past month."

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5212870.stm

>>"Last time I checked attempted murder of Red Cross paramedics was not a Canadian value; neither is apartheid, terrorism, torture, ethnic cleansing, or human trafficking. These don't appear to be British values either:"

Well if you check Caledonia, Ont there appears to be at least 3 of those 'values' at work.

"Apartheid, terrorism, and ethnic cleansing"

Somebody in Canada feels valued....

We train others how to treat us. In the past, Israel has trained Hezbollah and others that they will respond "in kind", not with overwhelming force. In a close relationship, it is possible to redefine the rules of the relationship. In an antagonistic one such as this, the only way to retrain is to display the new response. Now, it becomes a matter of consistency with the response.

Israel must continue to show that the rules have changed, and in doing so, it will discourage these kinds of transgressions by Hezbollah and other terrorist organizations. Of course, they could just keep on going and clean out the terrorist filth that has been polluting the ME for so long. Good luck on that, mind you. But good luck, to be sure.

Penny "davie - not sure what your point is, but we've been in WWIII for a few years now"

Sorry but WW III has not yet started.

France has not surrendered.

Sorry . . . couldn't resist. . .

Greenmamba, I believe what Nasrallah what he said purely for tactical reasons, which leads to skepticism about the truth of what he says. Nasrallah is no idiot--he must have expected a strong Israeli action. What I think he did not expect was that the Israelis would make good progress against the Hezbollah militia and that he expected to show up the Israelis in battle, gaining an incredible bump in status as a strongman charismatic leader or a movement that must be reckoned with in regional politics. Now that Hezbollah militia are coming up short, his face-saving ploy (notice: after 14 days, not 2 days) is that the Israeli response could not have been reasonably anticipated.

Fred: "France has not surrendered"

Au contraire, mon frere. You don't read much Mark Steyn, do you? France has already lost decisively with a whimper to its' fiercely un-integratable radical muslim population. Remember the six week long Renault campfire jamboree last fall that led to endless self deprecating capitulation by France's leadership?

It's really not much different than what happened after the German endrun of the Maginot line...just taking longer to materialize. The result will be the same as France changes back into it's ole' anti-semitic Vichy self.

4 UN observers reported killed in southern Lebanon
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has called upon the Israeli government to launch an investigation into an air strike that killed as many as four UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon on Tuesday. more »

maybe one of those posts with Hezbollah flags.

Neutralsam, your conclusions are so off the mark, that one must question whether you even listened to your link.

Israel, as a country, did NOT sell drugs, as you claim.

It clearly says that it was an Israeli *organized* criminal element.

Every country has citizens who cannot resist illegal actions for profit.

The spying was separate from the organized crime issue.

Don't you suppose every country has intelligence going on all around the world?

No other country could be more interested in what is being planned against them, or their allies, than Israel.

They were watching *Arab elements*, in the United States, to see what they had up their sleeves, to come with against Israel as a country.

You would not intentionally attempt to mis-inform, would you?

CNN Reporter Admits Being Hizballah Tool

CNN’s senior international correspondent Nic Robertson admitted on Sunday that his anti-Israel report on civilian casualties in Lebanon was stage-managed from start to finish by Hizballah terrorists: CNN’s Robertson Now Admits: Hezbollah ‘Had Control’ of His Anti-Israel Piece.

Back on July 18, Hezbollah ...-
via LGF

BTW, pundits are calling the war:

"Kofi Annan's War".

One of the UN people killed by an Israeli bomb was a Canadian.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A senior Lebanese military official says one was a Canadian. The other observers are from Austria, China and Finland the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to release the information to the media"

As for Nic Robertson--who is calling the shots on the pro-Israeli media reports?

Bob, neutralsam, george.. FOAD or at least move to Tehran to be with your spiritual leader.

bob at 5:56 A little thin on proof there wouldn't you say? Oh yes I remember the "Jenin massacre",which turned out to be more BS and I note at 2:10 you brought up the King David Hotel. Sixty years ago? Gee I wonder can we hold the rest of the world to your same exacting standards? Those damn Germans/ Russians/ Japanese/ Americans / Chinese, and I do seem to remember a certain group of soldiers beating a fifteen year old to death in a certain African country. And I also remember the first casualty of war, do you?

So some UN observers (including a Canadian) get wiped in an Israeli measured responses, it's all over the MSM (including the esteemed Fox,) but SDA regulars are tongue-tied.

What's the matter? Waiting for political direction on what spin to put on this bit of news?

What the hell were U.N. people observing? These people at the so called united nations are bunch of very foolish and very dangerous people. They side with terrorist, despots and thieves. Then they cry when they send thier people into a war zone and get killed. Someone needs to tell this fool Annan to go home and shut up. Take his son and thier pilfered money and retire.

agitfact:

What's the matter? Waiting for political direction..

Do you think that Israel would deliberately target a UN post? Even if Israelis are all evil demons, you'd think they'd be somewhat circumspect with the treatment they're getting from the media.

The real story is that Kofi right away said it was "apparently deliberate."

The same Kofi who called in Israel's UN ambassador to criticize Israel's Gaza strikes what seems so long ago. The ambassador protested, "but what about the rockets they've been firing - you never said anything."

Kofi: "What rockets."

Nothing that Kofi Annan says has any credibility whatsoever. Too bad the useful idiots in the MSM are still quoting him as though he had a leg to stand on.

I can't understand, when his complicity in the Oil for Food scandal is well known, as is his son's outright profiting from it, just for starters, why the guy is still in business or, for that matter, why the U.N. is...? The U.N. is part of most world problems, which makes it laughable that idiots are still calling for its intervention in Lebanon--and that the U.N. actually has "observers" there.

Another report from the front lines of:

"Kofi Annan's War". ...-

UN Repairing Roads for Hizballah

This might be the jawdropper of the day, as today’s report from the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon shows that they are busily repairing damaged roads in Hizballah-controlled areas—roads the IAF bombed specifically to impede Hizballah movement—right in the middle of the war. (Hat tip: mich-again.)

UNIFIL is still facing serious restrictions in its freedom of movement due to the ongoing hostilities and the extensive destruction of roads and bridges throughout the area of operation. Yesterday, a UNIFIL engineering contingent from China managed to do some repairs on a key road artery between Tyre and Naqoura, and the road is now usable for traffic. However, more road destruction was reported in various areas in the south. via LGF

agitfact - you want some spin.

here - the UN observers were like Captain Peter (wrongway) Peachfuzz. they were looking the opposite direction. As observers they should have noticed the buildup of forces on both sides of the border and made an observation more deserving than a memo to self on a post it note.

agitfact:

Unfortunately for those that were killed, this best illustrates the consequences of doing nothing (except for maybe scamming dollars, rape, etc).

"Waiting for political direction on what spin to put on this bit of news?"

No need - most could see it coming ... it's like commenting on a sunrise ... like it's a complete surprise.

melwilde, perhaps they were making another movie.

"Relations between Israel and the United Nations plummeted after information emerged that U.N. peacekeepers on the Lebanon border suppressed video tapes of three soldiers being abducted by Hezbollah guerrillas in 2000.

UNIFIL denied the charge, but the U.N. later admitted "unintentionally" concealing evidence from Israel.
The video - made by UN peacekeepers about 18 hours after three Israeli soldiers were abducted in October - shows vehicles allegedly used by Hezbollah guerrillas.

The tape is also reported to show the faces of guerrillas who prevented the UN peacekeepers from salvaging the vehicles as evidence.

UN denial

After months of denying the existence of the footage, last week the UN offered to give Israel a censored copy - with faces blurred - in response to demands from the Israeli Government.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1451957.stm

And why it is entirely likely that UN observers were killed by Israeli bombs. Kind of like living near Jane and Finch. Bad neighbours.

"In diplomatic meetings with the U.S. and France in the past weeks, a series of complaints about UNIFIL were brought up: The UN force maintains a permanent dialogue with Hezbollah, chiefly because of UNIFIL's own interest in survival; in many places along the Israel-Lebanon border, Hezbollah has posts and positions adjacent to UNIFIL positions; deployment of the force serves as an excuse for the Lebanese government not to deploy in the south, as required by UN Security Council resolutions; and UNIFIL treats the IDF as equivalent to the Hezbollah terrorist organization when reporting violations of the cease-fire"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=623427

Everyone take a deep fawking breath and try and remember that a Canadian Officer might have lost his life. If this Officer is who I believe it is he is a deeply dedicated and exceptional leader of men. Lets let the dust settle and see what the hell happened.

Time to pick sides, folks. Israel is delibrately targeting Canadian UN peacekeepers and Red Cross workers and anyone who says otherwise is damn near committing treason, not to mention dishonouring a dead Canadian soldier.

"Sunil Ram, a defence and security analyst, told CTV Newsnet that the Israelis had shelled the base at least 14 times before bombing it with what was clearly a guided bomb.

"UN posts like this are very well marked. The Israelis knew it was there; it's been there for years.

"But then when the Indians tried to send a rescue mission in there, they then shelled the troops who were trying to get to the post. So how much more deliberate do you want it to be?"

On Monday, vans marked with Red Crosses had come under fire."

www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060724/israel_fighting_060725/20060725?hub=TopStories

Supporting Israel is the equivilent of pissing on the Canadian War Memorial and the grave of the Unknown Soldier.

A treat to read this thread without all the usual long-winded basement know it alls from some long forgotten debating team.

I'm sorry bob. If you would only bother doing a bit of research you would know that hezbollah is famous for locating its bases and installations not only in civillian areas but also right next to UN positions as well so blow it out your a$$. And if you had been in the room and said "Supporting Israel is the equivilent of pissing on the Canadian War Memorial and the grave of the Unknown Soldier." you would now be picking yourself up off the floor sans teeth.

Sometimes I wonder if Kofi, Bob and Agitfact belong to the same cel.. er club?

Well I pilfer a bit too. Like this comment that seemed to provide a bit of light..

=====
Iran aside, there hasn't been a really noisy response from the Moslem world about Israel's military operations against Lebanon.

Notably subdued is the response from the Arab countries; it's mostly been mumbling about the plight of the Palestinians and such. Could this mean that the principal Arab leaders are not all that unhappy to see Hizbollah get it in the neck?

After all, most of the Arabs are Sunni, while Hizbollah and Iran are Shia. The exception that proves the rule is Syria, which has a Shia leadership.

But most Arabs fear Iran, not because most Iranians are Shia, but because Iranians are not Arabs. Iran has been the regional superpower for over three thousand years. Iran is building nuclear weapons.

Iran is backing Shia Arab factions in Iraq that would support turning Iraq into an Iranian ally.
[Muqtada al Sadr / TG]

Also scary is the fact that Iran is currently run by a religious dictatorship. Most Arabs have noted how that worked in Iran, Sudan, and Afghanistan and want no part of it. Worse, the Iranian religious leadership believes that they would do a better job running the Hejaz.

Swiped, without shame, from Voxs Den or -
-ttp://CedarsAwakening.blogspot.com

This seems to ring true. Do you think so? = TG

Bob, You have crossed the boundary of fair and reasoned debate with your comment concerning the War Memorial and the Unknown Soldier Tomb, We all await your apology.

Bob
Check out a few photos of some UN outposts - often you'll see the Head-Choppers' flag alongside or even above the UN rag. Tea-time is always a fun time at the outposts as you get to try yer traditional or an Indian or often the local terrorists brand of chai.

Very friendly, maybe too friendly some might say! And of course if the head-Choppers' needed you to look the other way while they went about there terrorist business, well isn't that what tea-time buddies do for each other?

Bob,

Don't listen to the other guys. Tell everyone you know friends, relatives, work mates, etc "Supporting Israel is the equivilent of pissing on the Canadian War Memorial and the grave of the Unknown Soldier."

They'll love and admire you. Get some bumper stickers made ... hand them out at malls. You have a real good chance of making the CBC National ... you'll be a hero!!!

Condolences to this soldier's family....Here is a closer look at this man who signed up to be an observer....and his take on any targeting being "deliberate"....*highlighted* as some of his final thoughts....

3w.tv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718

".......I cannot give you any info on Hezbollah position, proximity or the amount of or types of sorties the IAF is currently flying. Suffice to say that the activity levels and operational tempo of both parties is currently very high and continuous, with short breaks or pauses. Please understand the nature of my job here is to be impartial and to report violations from both sides without bias. As an Unarmed Military Observer, this is my raison d'etre.

What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base.

*****This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.****

I thank you for the opportunity to provide you with some information from the front lines here in south Lebanon.

Maj Hess-von Kruedener"

smells like someone farted. bloody bob trolls!! thought we near got rid of them damn rascals

The attack on the UN post appears, right now, to be egregious. Somebody in the Isreali Chain of Command needs to be held accountable.

Bob :

Those Peace Keepers had Hezballah flags flying. Gee I wonder why they where targeted.

Mark Steyn

07-13steyn.mp3

Kate may want to put the Picture up or not, But this site even shows the post that was hit & the flags it was flying.

No pity for those who take sides with head choppers. Sorry.

Bob :

Those Peace Keepers had Hezballah flags flying. Gee I wonder why they where targeted.

Mark Steyn

07-13steyn.mp3

Kate may want to put the Picture up or not, But this site even shows the post that was hit & the flags it was flying.

No pity for those who take sides with head choppers. Sorry. Frankly I would not pee down there throats, if they where on fire.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2006/07/international-peacekeepers.html

Sorry tried to get the link in , before i mistakenly posted it too early.

This is a good war. Lotsa very bad people are being obliterated, their apprentice child terrorists are being dispersed -- (although I hope not too many are being evacuated to Canada) -- their bases/homes/rocket launching pads are being destroyed, and now, as a bonus, some UN enemy collaborators have been eliminated. They deserve that even if they are Canadian.

With any luck, all of the Unifil forces, which in the past have helped Hizbollah kill Israelis, will scuttle away and hide, as they should. They are worse than useless. They are enabling evil. They have watched these past few years as Hizbollah installed thousands of missiles. Why did they allow that? So Israeli children could be killed.

Owl

Are you calling for the deliberate murder of Candian Soldiers?

Please clarify.

Grey, please get some caffien.

Owl makes an excellent point. Those who stand by and watch bombs and rockets and AA being installed should not be alarmed when thos installations become targets.

Rule one! Move your kids and family away from weapons sites. duh? Aww, I never talk like that. What the heck, must be the heat. = TG

TG

So now you're saying Canadian Soldiers deserve to be killed?

Prime Minister Stephen Harper:

Proud To Be a Canadian.

Thank you, Prime Minister.

God Bless Canada. ...-

(Canadian PM) No peace in Mideast with Hezbollah
National Post ^ | 2006-07-26 | Allison Hanes

CAMBRIDGE - A proposed international military force in southern Lebanon should not just keep peace but root out terror, Stephen Harper said yesterday.

While the Prime Minister does not want to see Canadian soldiers as part of a peacekeeping mission in the region, embroiled in fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, he said at a news conference in southwestern Ontario that the force should seek to remove from the Middle East those non-state actors that have been able to stockpile weapons and launch attacks against Israel.

"It is the Canadian government's hope that the international community will take this opportunity to deal in a forthright manner with this problem," said Mr. Harper, singling out Hezbollah and Hamas." ...

"Mr. Harper also called the evacuation of Canadians from bomb-riddled Lebanon an operation without precedent in the country's history.

He praised the public servants from a range of government departments who have been working both in Canada and overseas to co-ordinate the massive rescue mission, which has involved an armada of chartered ferry boats and commercial jetliners."

More: Re co$t of evacuation...

"I can't give you a cost estimate at the moment," he said. "I can tell you that the instructions I gave when we began the evacuation process was that we were to spare no expense -- that if necessary, we'll fund it out of the contingency funds of the government of Canada."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672381/posts

Prime Minister Stephen Harper:

Proud To Be a Canadian.

Thank you, Prime Minister.

God Bless Canada. ...-

(Canadian PM) No peace in Mideast with Hezbollah
National Post ^ | 2006-07-26 | Allison Hanes

CAMBRIDGE - A proposed international military force in southern Lebanon should not just keep peace but root out terror, Stephen Harper said yesterday.

While the Prime Minister does not want to see Canadian soldiers as part of a peacekeeping mission in the region, embroiled in fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, he said at a news conference in southwestern Ontario that the force should seek to remove from the Middle East those non-state actors that have been able to stockpile weapons and launch attacks against Israel.

"It is the Canadian government's hope that the international community will take this opportunity to deal in a forthright manner with this problem," said Mr. Harper, singling out Hezbollah and Hamas." ...

"Mr. Harper also called the evacuation of Canadians from bomb-riddled Lebanon an operation without precedent in the country's history.

He praised the public servants from a range of government departments who have been working both in Canada and overseas to co-ordinate the massive rescue mission, which has involved an armada of chartered ferry boats and commercial jetliners."

More: Re co$t of evacuation...

"I can't give you a cost estimate at the moment," he said. "I can tell you that the instructions I gave when we began the evacuation process was that we were to spare no expense -- that if necessary, we'll fund it out of the contingency funds of the government of Canada."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672381/posts

"A proposed international military force in southern Lebanon should not just keep peace but root out terror.

While the Prime Minister does not want to see Canadian soldiers as part of a peacekeeping mission in the region, embroiled in fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, he said at a news conference in southwestern Ontario that the force should seek to remove from the Middle East those non-state actors that have been able to stockpile weapons and launch attacks against Israel."

PM Harper is spot on here - but now wait for the carping and whining from the usual suspects to begin.

Any "buffer zone" force is going to have to do two things to be successful:

1. Confront - and neutralize - the military arm of Hezbollah.

2. Control - not just monitor - all Lebanese border crossings with Syria, airports and ports.

The US and UK are giving it a by.

France now says fine but it shouldn't be a NATO force.

If it goes in under the "UN peacekeeping" rubric, it will be worse than useless.

This dog won't bite and Canada should give it a by too.

Gray: So YOU'RE saying that Israelis should be continuously and mercilessly bombed and terrorized without responding?

I would expect no sympathy if I casually stood by a sniper "observing" his actions/reactions when the police showed up. Hezbollah set up their post right beside the UNIFIL post and has had it there for an extended period of time. Any sane person with a shred of intelligence would realize that, once the shooting begins, they shouldn't stand beside the target.

Of course, TG is not condoning the murder of Canadian soldiers...he is condemning the UN for complicity in their deaths for keeping the post directly in the line of fire.

You're an a**hole.

JJM re a proposed international military force in southern Lebanon: "If it goes in under the 'UN peacekeeping' rubric, it will be worse than useless."

And that's because there is no peace, so how can any government or the U.N. credibly talk about a peace keeping presence in the region? It's just more fuzzy, bleeding-heart thinking: If we want peace and say there is peace, then, magically, there will be peace. That's whiney, childish, typically leftist thinking, not reality.

UNIFIL should have looked to its members' own safety--not to mention the safety of the people of the region, which was their mandate, after all--by ensuring that Hezbollah's actions were properly monitored and reported rather than becoming cozy with the Hezbollah terrorists. Given that it's a U.N. force one is not surprised at their duplicity with Hezbollah forces, which is a sad statement on what one has come to expect from U.N. "peacekeeping" forces.

It's easy to cry "foul" when the going gets tough, but it's pretty clear that the UNIFIL presence has been sleeping on the job--or worse, consorting with one side of a conflict they're supposed to be monitoring--which is inexcusable seeing as they've had almost 30 years to get their job done properly.

Yet another reason to scrap the U.N. and look for a viable alternative to a thoroughly corrupt, top-heavy, and ineffectual organization. And while we're at it, maybe the U.N. could find someone other than Kofi Annan to head it up, someone with international credibility, who is honest and beyond reproach, bribery, and the racial-leadership lottery.

Is this too much to ask?

"UNIFIL should have looked to its members' own safety--not to mention the safety of the people of the region, which was their mandate, after all--by ensuring that Hezbollah's actions were properly monitored and reported rather than becoming cozy with the Hezbollah terrorists."

It's my experience with the UN, notwithstanding widespread incompetence and corruption amongst many (but by no means not all) of its national contingents, that its observers generally do monitor and report quite thoroughly.

However, the problem with all that UN monitoring and reporting is that it never leads to any concrete action.

The 800,000 or more people massacred in Rwanda were quite literally monitored and reported to DEATH by UN observers.

Oops! I'm writing too quickly.

The words in paraentheses at my line 6 should have read:

"(but by no means all)"

rather than:

"(but by no means not all)"

The death of UN "peacekeepers" is sad and to be mourned. However, the UN staff were not there performing their UN mandate, to supervise the withdrawal of Israeli forces, etc. They were scurrying about providing aid in the middle of bombardments, knowing that Hezbollah was deliberately using them as shields, and relying entirely on the superior capability of the Israeli's to be precise. Well, you take the risk of error. I have not seen anything credible to suggest the Israeli hit deliberately targetted UN personnel. Erros happen. If you walk out in the rain with an umbrella with holes, you better expect to get wet.

I see that the political/ideological direction has been received. Had seen it earlier on another "conservative" site before posting my 9:48 PM last night: it was all UNIFIL's and the UN's fault.

I was only wondering why SDA was so slow on the uptake. Imagine the banshee screams if the other side had killed a Canadian UN observer!

"SDA" was working until midnight putting signage orders together.

Now, if the best you can contribute here is to accuse me of receiving political direction from my Masters in the Conservative Party, you know where the door is.

Anyone remember Canadian troops being bombed by American planes? In Afghanistan? During a war with terrorists? You'd almost think that war was unpredictable and messy.

Are some of the posters here deliberately trying to be thick or do they truly believe their drivel? The UN has posts set up next door to Hezbollah operations. It's like riding around on a ten-point buck during hunting season and getting pissed off when you get hit with a bullet. Does common sense exist in the world anymore? You'd almost think that Hezbollah has it in their best interest to keep the UN right where it is.

If a Cdn UN observer was stationed at a post next to an Israeli base of operations on the front line and got hit with a bomb, the same logic stands. What in the world is the UN doing keeping their observers in such a ridiculous state of risk? Why would they leave their people in the direct line of fire? ...Whereas I can guess what the Hezbollah apologists would say; "Israel is using the UN 'observers' as a human shield." Sound familiar?

agitfact must be thick. No one is saying it is not the Israelis fault. The Israelis screwed up. What is lacking in credibility is the claim that the UN was deliberately targeted. The other point being made is that "friendly fire" is an intrinsic risk of being imbedded in a zone being bombarded, particularly when it is known the enemy uses the tactic of locating near UN locations.

The AP article by Faramarzi doesn't really confirm anything in the Al-Jazeera interview. It only shows that Komati, Hezbollah's political deputy chief, and Nasrallah, Hezbollah's "Secretary General", (are they modeled on the UN?) are singing the same song. Surprise, surprise.
There is no mention of collaboration by the Lebanese government.
Murray makes a good point: why take so long to profess shock and amazement at the Iraeli response?

agitfact said, "...Imagine the banshee screams if the other side had killed a Canadian UN observer!"

Like Ham, I would answer that had the U.N. operation located itself in the same vicinity as Israeli forces then the logic is: "U.N. observer, beware--and GET OUT!" This is a war zone, for crying out loud, not a chess board where precise and accurate moves are nearly always possible, and from an armchair.

JJM's point is well taken: "...[U.N.] observers generally do monitor and report quite thoroughly.
However, ... it never leads to any concrete action." In this case, concrete action on the part of UNIFIL might have been to get out of the line of hostile fire.

hassle

If you can find one word I've written to say Isreal shouldn't defend herself please do so. Rather, on another board, I have vigourously defended Isreal's right to do so. However that right does not excuse any and all conduct.

I am astonished that on a presumably conservative board no one will condemn a poster who calls for the murder of Canadian soldiers. It is pathetic really. So much for your patriotism . . . .

If rejecting calls for the murder of a Canadian Soldier makes me bad name in your eyes, then it is an appellation I'Il wear proudly.

gray, would you kindly give the exact quote where a poster here "calls for the murder of a Canadian Soldier" (your words)? This is a long post, and a quick perusal doesn't reveal it.

Calling for the murder of anyone doesn't sound like the usual fare here, and I'm wondering if you're either putting words in someone's mouth or are taking a comment out of context. That seems a more reasonable explanation than taking what you've alleged at face value.

"even if they are Canadian."

gray, you are splitting hairs. Note the word "if." Owl, although somewhat bluntly, is stating that aiding and abetting a criminal, in this case Hezbollah, should be punishable. In this case, Israel has retaliated against crimes against its nationhood with force. Aiders and abettors beware - even IF IF IF IF Canadian. In this case, no one is suggesting the unfortunate Canadian casualty is involved with Hezbollah. But, based on the statements made by the Indian UNIFIL contingent, there does seem to be instances of collusion by UNIFIL with Hezbollah - thus leading to Owl's statement.

Cherrypicking sentence clauses, presenting them out of context and then holding the writer(s) to account for some ridiculous assertion you then extrapolate could be considered somewhat unfair and misleading.

Gray said: "I am astonished that on a presumably conservative board no one will condemn a poster who calls for the murder of Canadian soldiers."

Gray, threads move along so quickly.

It helps others to know where your charge comes from if the time the post, that caught your eye, was included.

There is an investigation into the latest deaths of UNIFIL.

And while that happens, this story about a Canadian-Israeli-Beduin being arrested for spying for The Hezbollah. This does add fuel to the ongoing debate about mulitple citizenship availabilities, in this country, even if he was not a soldier for Canada.

3w .jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292002968&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"A Canadian-Israeli geographer, Professor Razi Salakh, has been under arrest for the past 18 days on suspicion of spying on behalf of terror groups, the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) announced on Wednesday.

The man, a Beduin, does not live in Israel, but his family lives in the Nazareth area.

The Shin Bet and Galilee police apprehended the suspect as he was photographing military installations in the North......."

and now, as a bonus, some UN enemy collaborators have been eliminated. They deserve that even if they are Canadian.
Posted by: owl at July 26, 2006 01:43 AM

Doesn't seem to be hairsplitting to me. Just a literal reading.

They are addressing this topic on thread further up, I'll post any follow ups there

Gray, your initial claim was that someone specified "Canadian soldiers".

Your 02:49PM post only addresses "Canadians".

What would be indicated by that ommission now?

I have another post waiting to come on stream, tied up for link-formatting, possibly.

But here is another link for your interest, from today, of canadian-lebanese coming back to this country, already known for their terrorism activities, IN Canada:

.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=f8b05859-b49a-4756-b5c5-e5da6501bd9e

..."Mr. Daher, who was born in Lebanon, is a former Alberta cinema owner who intelligence authorities have identified as a member of Asbat al-Ansar, an al-Qaeda-linked faction.

He is accused of running a terrorist support network based in the Edmonton area that used a Muslim charity as a cover for his alleged activities as an extremist fundraiser and recruiter.

The man, who is also wanted by the United States, had been living under house arrest at his mansion in the Bekaa Valley town of Karaoun with his wife and Canadian-born children.

Also believed to be living in South Lebanon was Fawzi Ayub, a member of Hezbollah's elite terrorist unit, Islamic Jihad.

After taking part in a hijacking in Romania that left dozens dead, Mr. Ayub immigrated to Canada. He was later reactivated by Hezbollah, which gave him a new identity and sent him on assignment to Israel.

He was arrested in the West Bank town of Hebron in 2002, but two years ago he was sent back to Lebanon as part of a prisoner exchange between Israel and Hezbollah.

Hezbollah has had an active presence in Canada for more than 15 years. Canadian operatives have engaged in everything from auto theft to procurement of materiel. The network dissipated after Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon, but the resurgence of violence has the Jewish community worried.

Canadians leaving Lebanon are being asked for identity documents that are being screened against police, intelligence and immigration watch lists."

gray: Thanks for responding to my question.

I don't, however, see how you can jump from owl's statement which, after all, was actually about "UN enemy collaborators" which MIGHT include a Canadian soldier, to the allegation that owl is "call[ing] for the murder of Canadian soldiers" and then, even more outlandish, suggest that posters on this thread condone the murdering of "Canadian soldiers." Let me repeat: owl called for the elimination of
"UN enemy collaborators."

You suggest that SDA posters' so-called apathy in this regard is "pathetic really." May I suggest that your literal reading of one post on this thread from which you make a giant leap to an unfounded conclusion is what is pathetic really?

Well I will say one thing, you guys are prepared to go down with the ship.

I mean talk about hairsplitting. Are you suggesting that Owl was talking about anyone else than the Canadian officer who has noted in the reports of the incidence form the very beginning? His words are quite explicit "they deserve that even if they are Canadian". What do you think he meant ?

What would be indicated by that ommission now.
Nothing. The context has always been that it was Canadian soldier.

gray wrote: "I am astonished that on a presumably conservative board no one will condemn a poster who calls for the murder of Canadian soldiers. It is pathetic really. So much for your patriotism . . ."

But what owl actually said was: "and now, as a bonus, some UN enemy collaborators have been eliminated. They deserve that even if they are Canadian."

Then, when challenged, gray implied that the above quoted accusation about an sda contributor (owl) suggesting "the murder of Canadian soldiers . . ." was a logical conclusion: "[It d]oesn't seem to be hairsplitting to me. Just a literal reading." (And I'm a monkey's uncle . . .)

So much for gray's IQ and/or language processing abilities. gray, you need some tutoring in interpreting text. Your "literal" reading is no such thing. Your inference from what owl actually said is nonsensical: so nonsensical that none of the patriotic sda posters got the same message-- which would be, I believe, why we didn't condemn it. (gray, I've just made an inference here. It's one that makes sense. Therefore, it's OK. Got it?)

gray, we conservatives at sda don't mind a good debate. Opposing views keep us on our toes: Sometimes we learn something we didn't know, sometimes we see and appreciate a different perspective, always, we need to reexamine our data in light of an opponent's assertions.

However, when the assertion given is utter nonsense--as is the above statement about "the murder of Canadian soldiers"--as well as based on a gross misrepresentation of another poster's remarks, a line has been crossed.

gray, you owe owl and the posters here an apology for insulting all of us. I talk of "toddler" behaviour to my students: That means irresponsible, self-referential, entitled, "me me me" behaviour. You made a mistake--a big one--and have confounded it by glossing it over. As usual: Toddlers never take responsibility for their behaviour and they persist in their magical thinking. That's OK if you're literally a toddler. It's not OK if you're not.

So, please smarten up.

I won't say it again, gray, but one last time:

owl was referring to "UN enemy collaborators," whatever nationality. You're basically saying "my country[wo/man] right or wrong," and owl's saying, no, wrong is wrong, whether you're a Canadian soldier doing something wrong or a Chinese one, or an American one, or....

I don't know about going down with the ship, but I believe in saying what you mean and meaning what you say, and not playing around with language--because it matters.

That's why "the pen is mightier than the sword" was...penned.

BTW, gray, you could also use some tutoring on the use of appropriate language: Intemperate or inaccurate language quite decisively undermines one's credibility.

E.g., Your use of the word "murder" for the death of "UN enemy collaborators" in the present situation in Lebanon is altogether inappropriate.

(On consideration, I believe that the word "murder", figuratively, might be a good one for what you appear to do to the English language and a good debate.)

The mind boggles.

What do comments about someone's IQ or writing style have to do with a good debate?

If you could somehow convince me that owl was only speaking hypothetically and he didn't know that the "UN enemy collaborator" ( a despicable statement in its own right) was a Canadian soldier, I might stop and think about it for a second. But that defies belief since the issue has been reported from the start as involving a Canadian soldier. Owl's intent was quite clear and that you can't or won't see it, well clearly there is nothing I can do about that.

Take your last shots if you will. Really when it gets to this point, fact, figure or f**k off isn't going to change anybody's mind. I won't respond further on this thread.

gray says it all: "What do comments about someone's IQ or writing style have to do with a good debate?"

"The mind boggles."

Yes, gray, it certainly does.