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I participate on a Canadian politics discussion forum semi-regularly. When I pointed out that Israel had formally expressed regret for the deaths of innocent Canadians to those demanding that we send our troops to retaliate for Israel's "act of war against Canada," I was accused of sympathizing with terrorists.

Imagine.

Kerry, do you have a link anywhere to Israel's statement of regret?

Unbelievable, there are actually Canadians out there that want Canada to go to war with Israel??? Are they crazy? They refer to Israel as the "terrorists" and not Hezbollah? What happened to trying to work on getting a cease fire? I can't begin to understand some people's thinking, it's just amazing.

Well when that Toronto-area girl was blown to bits by a Palestinian bomb on a beach in Israel a few years' back, I distinctly remember .... silence.

Yeah, that's it: silence.

With reference to Cliff May's post, I think that the Afghanistan war to oust the Taliban WAS an international conflict. In fact, all of these wars - in Iraq, in Afghanistan and now, in Israel and Lebanon, are international.

They are all association with islamic fascism. I separate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from islamic fascism, although the islamic fascists have now taken over than conflict, for their own fascist agenda.
But previous to the rise of islamic fascism, most arab states didn't give a damn about Palestinians, considering them ignorant peasants. So, the arab state rhetoric about 'helping Palestine' is nonsense.

Hamas and Hezbollah have been taken over by the global agenda of islamic fascism. And, that's now being run by Iran, with its side kick of Syria.

Iran wants war with the west. That's been evident for some time. Iran wants to be the King of the Arab States. What puzzles me, is how they think they can win such a war to achieve that agenda. Again -they are not interested in Palestine. And their chief opposition to Israel is that it is a democracy. The arab states are in the 'fight of their lives' to retain tribalism rather than move onto democracy.

They are funded by oil, but, that's all they've got. Without democracy, they have no individualism. And that means, no minds, no science, no patents, no innovation, no technology. Nothing. They purchase the results of all of this from other states. But, that can't last.

However, the metaphor of a war based around military precision strikes and a war based around morale is very good. It works. Check out the Canadian newspapers, which are all blaming Israel, and completely ignoring that this was a carefully planned attack by a coordinated Hamas and Hezbollah, as run by Iran, to set up a ME war. Iran is behind it all and is running the attacks.

Once again the stability of the entire world is threatened because of the ingrained hatred and racism inherent in these peoples.
I am also continually shocked at those who try to'pick a side'to root for based on their own biases of'perceived morals'by these groups.I submit the two groups at the center are both fighting to stave off genocide,who is to say what lengths to achieve this are right or wrong until you have walked/shook with fear in those shoes.
Again,to those on this forum I lectured last week,they have been at war now for decades,if they do not fight this current campaign until there is a victor,we will see decades more of death and suffering on both sides.
Is it sad?...Yes...but it is REALITY!
Unless an Arab country sreps forward with an offer of land to separate these groups,the hatred and killing will NEVER stop.
Yeah,I know,if the Jews can somehow find victory,they still have the entire muslim world gunning for them....but for geography,they are now no different than the rest of us...just a bunch of infidels...

What I find even more amazing, is the fact that there are people who made a conscience decision to travel, and remain in Lebanon given the fact that the country shares it's territory with Hezbollah. Anyone with even a small trace of residual grey-matter after a self-performed full frontal lobotomy can tell you that; if you must share the feast with the lions, don't be too surprised if you end up being lunch!

I intend to call my MP and give him firm instructions that I do not want my tax dollars being spent on extricating people who make dumb decisions.

anne, We can never underestimate the power and influence of the "Fifth Column" in Canada. I was just listening to our local radio pundit Phillip Till on CKNW, interviewing a spokesperson for Lebanese Canadians abroad. His spin was that Hezbollah had only captured 2 Israli soldiers, thats all, and that the the IDF was now carpet bombing a whole country as a consequence. Just watch the "useful idiots" clamour on to this bandwagon.

I don't think there's any way to mitigate the deaths of a family of Canadians in Lebanon.

Those deaths were very tragic. And that is sad.

However, two points well worth considering:

1. The majority of the Canadian citizens in Lebanon are also Lebanese citizens (ie, dual citizens).

2. They were all well aware of the volatility of the region yet chose to be there regardless.

So when things are fine in Lebanon, they're Lebanese nationals enjoying the sun and the beach.

But when it gets crappy, they're now Canadian nationals clamouring for the government to get them out.

frequent flyer - the government of Lebanon is NOT the Hezbollah; Hezbollah has become a 'substate' within Lebanon and is not dominant in the whole country.

There are 'substates' in other countries as well; how about people who go to Paris - where the 'suburbs' are enclaves of Muslim jihadists. Would you chastise people who travel to Paris? What about the burgeoning gun-culture in Toronto; would you chastize people who visit Toronto?

canadian observer - I don't think I quite understood your post. I think you were defining this current Israel-Lebanon war as related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I disagree; this conflict has been sabotaged and taken over by Islamic fascism - and that's an entirely different program and focus.

Islamic fascism isn't interested in Palestinians or a Palestinian state; it is interested in (1)preventing democracy in the ME and retaining tribal fiefdom power; (2) expanding Islamic power in the world. To achieve both goals, it must prevent democracy in its midst and its must rely on fundamentalism and emotion.

To achieve these two goals, the tactics are propaganda and fear. The globalization of the world, by virtue of the shrinking of space by air travel, has moved populations around the world.
The West, particularly in Europe and Canada reacted to these newcomers with the disastrous policy of multiculturalism rather than assimilation. It said 'OK, you can come; but you don't blend with Us; You remain Other to US'. No matter how you sweeten the terminology, it's isolating and alienating.

And that is exactly what has happened, particularly in Europe, where the immigrant population was low skilled and low wages. Islamic fascism has moved through this alienated population like a typhoon, sucking them all up into its emotional blindness.

Now, rather than advancing and moving into democracy, and industrialism, the Islamic world is trying to reject both and cling to tribalism, within a 'state of high excitation' that rejects thought, analysis, reason..and operates in a constant 'chaotic boiling state'. Like any pot of water - something has to keep the 'water boiling' or it will settle down. So, new hysteric threats must be made, new bombings.

The only thing I can state, is that tribalism won't work in our modern world. But, it's going to be a long and disastrous phase of wars before the Islamic world accepts this, and modernizes itself. The West MUST keep strong, it must refuse to accomodate fascism and tribalism; it must reject any and all Islamic fascist demands, and remain true to its principles of freedom, democracy and justice.

Gunney99, the media is being extremely irresponsible by allowing only half the facts to be told, they are contributing to inflaming this conflict - do they actually want more deaths? I don't get it.

Good column by George Jonas at The National Post.

Exerpts:

We know little about the Canadians killed and injured in Lebanon yesterday
…
We know one thing, though: Israel didn't mean to harm them.

As long as the victims were civilians, whether vacationing or resident, Canadian or Lebanese, old or young, men or women, we know Israel's bombs weren't meant for them. Unlike the 20 Israeli civilians killed and injured two hours earlier in Haifa, who were specifically targeted by Hezbollah's rockets fired from southern Lebanon -- targeted not as individuals but as civilians -- the calamity that befell the Canadians wasn't by design. Every Israeli bomb dropped on Lebanon yesterday was meant for terrorists -- that is, the kind of folk who fire rockets on civilians by design.

What is going on in the Middle East right now is a war between people who mean to kill civilians and people who don't. It's a war between a side that regards shoppers and restaurant patrons and bus riders as fair game and deliberately selects them as targets, and a side that regards targeting shoppers and similar non-combatants as terrorism, and targets only terrorists.

Unfortunately, the nature of war is such that civilians are killed not only by the side that means to kill them but also by the side that doesn't. It's a sad irony when an army that essentially goes to war to stop the blowing up of civilians ends up blowing up civilians itself - sad, but unavoidable.

People who deliberately target non-combatants are bad people.

They're bad, whatever their religion or politics. Or ethnicity.

They won't go away for the asking and they're unlikely to mend their ways. They need to be eradicated or at least held at bay by good guys - and while so doing, the side that wishes to protect civilians, may end up hurting civilians sometimes. As NATO had to do recently in the Balkans; as the coalition forces are still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan; and as Israel is obliged to do in Lebanon.
…
The news that members of his family may have perished reached Montreal resident Hassan El-Akhras, 31, as he was participating in a march demanding that Canada and the international community condemn Israel for defending itself against Hezbollah's Katyusha rockets.

''My cousin just called me to say my father, two of my aunts, my uncle and his son are now martyrs,'' Mr. El-Akhras was quoted as saying, leaving no doubt about his own political sympathies.

Perhaps Mr. El-Akhras shouldn't push martyrdom - not unless he wishes to suggest his family members weren't vacationers at all, but volunteers in the propaganda war against Israel.

However, it appears the dead and injured Lebanese-Canadian passport holders were not "martyrs" but innocent victims - victims of a war Israel has tried its best to avoid.

Lebanon doesn't have clean hands in this whole mess and their posturing as innocent victims is nonsense. They failed to forcefully remove the Syrians. They certainly had to have realized that leaving the Syrians entrenched in the south to perpetuate murder and mayhem against Israel was going to cost them dearly someday.

The Lebanese would be smart to seize the moment and use this opportunity to liberate their own country once and for all. They could help Israel in destroying the foreign parasites on their soil, instead of whinning.

The Left, especially the purveyors of news in the US and Canada, only likes an Israel that is impotent. The Left only respects countries with characteristics like France and organizations like the UN that are sniveling and weasely because they are mirror images of their own values. Add gutless, vicious, morally equivocating and superficial.

Sorry, Anne, I don't have a link to a direct written statement by Israel, but the Toronto Star and other news outlets are reporting that "Israeli Foreign Ministry Deputy Director Yoram Ben-Zev promised Sinclair that Israel would follow up the conversation "with more details as to what we know exactly happened." TV news reports have also suggested that a formal statement is on its way.

Very, very, very sorry for multiple comments, but I meant to paste a different quote in my last comment:

"A senior Israeli official expressed his "profound sorrow and regret at the death of the Canadian nationals in Lebanon" in a telephone call with Canada's Ambassador to Israel, Donald Sinclair."

As Michael Totten has said:

"This is a scary time and I hope it stops. All the violence. One thing is certain: the warmongers can’t be trusted to offer up their opinions or ideas since they cheer-leaded us into the disastrous Iraq war and ushered in this state of existence."

It is amazing how quickly and seemlessly the international left aligns with Islamist terrorist proxy armies, railing against any response to attacks by Democratic nation-states. Nothing Israelis could do but sit there and die quietly would please them.

To accept the Socialist talking points as fact would require one to ignore reality. Are we to pretend that Lebanese ports, airports and the roads to Damascus and South Lebanon were not used as Hizballah supply routes? I presume the "Army of God" imported 5,000 combatants and 10,000 rockets into the Israeli border region on the backs of donkeys. This mobilization evidently occured without being seen and ignored by the Lebanese government and general population.

We are to believe that in 5 days of intentionally targeting civilians with heavy bombings, the terrorist state of Israel has only managed to kill 200 Lebanese civilians. Israel must be a very weak terrorist state, considering Islamist terrorists killed 200 in one attack in Bombay last week.

The number of jihadi supporting retards among our "progressive" left is scary. Does it ever occur to them that authentic Western Liberalism has NOTHING in common with the throat-slitters?

"It said 'OK, you can come; but you don't blend with Us; You remain Other to US'. No matter how you sweeten the terminology, it's isolating and alienating."

Can't agree. Rather than saying "don't blend with us", we've said you need not blend with us. With more than 20 yrs in business with people of all cultures, I've seen the vast majority just want to be Canadian. The Chinese, Philippinos, East Indians, Ukranians, Dutch, Italians and so many others have assimilated well - despite hardship and occasionally but rarely, individual racism.

Official mulit-culturalism has been a disaster. A program of ill-concieved, unintended consequences. Whether you like the term or not and whether applied to Muslims or Aboriginals, assimilation is the only means to a cohesive and peaceful society.

dave m - what war-mongers? Do you mean the terrorists - who bomb civilians in trains, in restaurants, in office towers, in hotels?

The Iraqi war isn't a disaster; it has ended a tyrannic dictatorship and permitted a people to move into democracy. Are you against that?

Tom Penn - exactly; how were these rockets etc moved into Lebanon?

By the way, does anyone else find it strange that apparently, about 40,000 Canadians are now in Lebanon? What an enormous number. Do that many Lebanese Canadians return in the summer?

And 21,000 have already asked the Canadian embassy for assistance in getting out of Lebanon. Wouldn't this be a prime time for yet more terrorists to use their ever-ready fake ID, and slip into Canada? After all, Canada doesn't have the reputation of being 'open to terrorists' without cause.

All my life, I have seen the hand wringers and do gooders respond to some nasty war with efforts, UN resolutions, and interventions, to stop the violence, maintain "stability"

And what has been the result..

... in Cyprus,
... in Kosovo
... in Somalia
... in Rwanda
... in Darfur
... in Gaza etc. etc.

Sometimes it is best if one side wins because a stalemate often supports one of the sides, or simply perpetuates the state of hostility.

May the disproportionate force be with you.

ET...Totten said it. He is a prominent right wing blogger often referenced here for his on the ground information.

To add to my rant against the talking points of the international left, can anyone identify the inception of this insane concept of "disproportionate response" in the conduct of war? Does the Left truly believe that the purpose of war is proportion? War should be conducted like decorating a room, or framing a photograph. I always thought the point of war was defeating your enemies.

This is why the Democratic Party will have an impossible time winning an election in the US anytime soon. The Left does not believe in WINNING war.

This is a very interesting and informative interview with Brigitte Gabriel into Lebanese thought and culture for those who can spare forty-five minutes.
http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/db_video.html

Canadian Observer, I think I'm having trouble understanding your post too. You seem to be suggesting a moral equivalency between Israel and the Arab fascists. Is this correct?

If so, I strongly challenge that interpretation with this short list:

Israel doesn't use women and children (or any other kind of) suicide bombers to murder innocent civilians.

Israel doesn't invade its Arab neighbours' countries without provocation, as the Arabs did Israel in 1967 and now.

Israel doesn't behead innocent hostages--or any other kind--on (or off) camera.

Israel doesn't harbour terrorist groups, like Hamas and Hezbollah, which are proxies for a hostile power (Iran).

Israel doesn't assign dhimmi status to non Jews in Israel.

Israel doesn't flaunt all the articles of warfare in the Geneva Convention.

Israel doesn't claim--and mean it--that its purpose is to wipe the Arab states off the map.

Israel DOES have the only functioning, independent democracy in the ME.

Israel DOES give all of its citizens, including Muslims, freedom of speech and religion, and all other rights of citizenship.

Israel DOES follow the Geneva Conventions for waging war. (E.g., Its soldiers wear the recognizable uniform of a bona fide nation, their arms are visible, they do not hide among the civilian population, they don't deliberately target civilians, etc.)

Israel DOES have a prosperous, forward looking, modern, technological, democratic country based on the rights and obligations of citizenship, not tribalism.

Hezbollah INVADED Israel last week across an established international border, therefore, committing an act of war. Hamas is also bombing Israel from Gaza. Israel has a right to fight back--and fight back just as hard as it can. (You don't just kill the wasp [excuse the anomalous metaphor here]: You have to destroy the infrastructure that keeps it alive.) Israel's enemy--on many fronts--is implacable, barbaric, and has made it clear for decades that its goal is to "drive Israel into the sea".

I'm proud as punch of PMSH who's pulling no punches re the Canadian government's support for Israel's right to defend itself. What a refreshing change from the fence-sitting appeasement drivel of the "cheese eating surrender monkey" LIEbrals, who, via the Desmarais family (in-laws of Jean Chretien, aka Bon Cretin), are tied to and seriously compromised by seedy regimes all over the ME.

The West should be thanking G_d, its lucky stars, or whatever for the strength, bravery, smarts and military might of Israel: It's one of the major front lines against the cutthroat, renegade state of Iran. The more damage Israel does to this international canker, the safer we'll all be and the less fighting we'll have to engage in later on.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. They shall prosper that love thee." Psalm 122. I'm praying.

My thoughts as well ET. Stats Canada information indicates that between 1991 and 2000 there were 36,823 Lebanese who immigrated to Canada, which is almost the same amount as emigrated to the US during the same time period, so it would be reasonably safe to say that Canada gets a very large proportion of total Lebanese emigration.

I have as yet to find total numbers of Lebanese immigrants in Canada, but it does seem rather striking to be able to say that potentially every person who emigrated from Lebanon to Canada between 1991 and 2000 were actually back in Lebanon vacationing simultaneously during a period of extreme hieghtened tension and military escalation in the summer of 2006. And that fully 2/3rds of them are not documented. Lot of room for abuse of immigration abuse into Canada.

Perhaps those that cannot demonstrate citizenship should be quarantined until the can do so.

Don't sweat it Dave M. This war, like every other Arab-Israeli War, has always been the Arabs' to stop.

Unfortunately, I am coming to believe that the Geneva Convention is a worthless document that should be torn up right quickly. It hasn't saved one innocent person from being massacred in its 100+ year history, and all it's doing now is preventing victorious democratic nations from winning wars, thus ending them once and for all. The Geneva Conventions are now actually causing war and death, a bad thing I think.

If there were no Geneva Convention, Israel could get on with massacring Hizb'allah and their entire fan club, and thus endeth the war. You know the Romans were much smarter than us, and they made a clear distinction between wars against states, and wars against gangs of barbarians.

Of course you can call this barbaric, or anything else, to which I'd reply, "yeah, so?". What exactly are the world's democracies getting for all the casualties we are inflicting on ourselves, so as to avoid hurting their "innocents"?

ET I thought it odd as well that forty thousand Canadians could be in Lebanon. Are they all on holiday I wonder? Think of the logistics! If the average vacation is two weeks that would mean thousands of Canadians flying there on a daily basis! Even if the vacacation was a month that would still involve thousands travelling to and fro on a daily basis!

The group is Hezbollah, Iran's proxy.

The reporter was there 21 April 2001: the 9/10 world.

The plans to hit Israel were common knowledge then.

The 9/11 world is making headlines.

The village of Aitaroun in southern Lebanon; site of the death of dual citizenship Canadian-Lebanese. ...-

Group grips all facets of society

By Betsy Hiel
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Saturday, April 21, 2001

Excerpt:

"In the village of Aitaroun, Fatima Eid serves tea and fresh figs to a visitor. Golden-brown tobacco leaves hang from the ceiling over burlap bags of wheat. A lone picture of Hezbollah leader Said Hasan Nasrallah decorates the walls.

The elderly woman, dressed in a long gold and purple gown and a gray and white headscarf, enthusiastically explains why she backs the Islamic group: "Hezbollah raised our heads high and liberated us and gave us our freedom."

As if on cue, cars flying Hezbollah flags parade by, horns honking in celebration of an election victory. "See how I love Hezbollah?" she says, clapping her hands. "Hezbollah is strong, and they have Katyusha rockets that can reach Haifa and Jaffa if Israel attacks." ...-
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_27541.html

dave m - I don't know Totten, but that's not relevant. YOU posted his comments, therefore, you must have agreed with his conclusions since you didn't object to them. So, again, what warmongers? Do you mean the terrorists? And the Iraqi was IS not a disaster. So why do you offer us up these false conclusions?

Even if there is a ceasefire, I don't think this will be the end of it. Iran has an agenda of war. At the moment, it is using Hamas and Hezbollah. Israel is disabling that agenda. But Iran wants a war with, not Israel, but above all, with the West. The US, UK etc.. It would like to bring the West into this current fight, but so far, the West is smart and is staying out.

But I suspect the rhetoric will increase, to bring the West into the fight.

ET, Wimpy Canadian, Tom Penn, bcf: Great non PC, tell-it-like-it-is posts. Thanks!

Re Randy and ET’s remarks on multi-culturalism and tribalism.

I completely agree that Canada’s official multi-culti approach is misguided or worse. Noting for one thing that the nominal ‘Canadians’ who were killed in south Lebanon held dual citizenships reminded me of my local Canada Day folkfest in which most of the ethnic concession stands flew the flags of their countries of origin - and many sans a Canadian flag. Also I noticed a number of individual cars driving around flying the flags of various other nations. So, for some, Canada Day is interpreted as a day to celebrate one’s foreign identity. So, multiculturalism, Canadian style, with Canada’s official blessing, is becoming multi-nationalism. Where does one find one’s Canadian identity in that officially promoted confusion?

While I have no objection to people remembering or celebrating their ethnic traditions (with certain obvious exceptions, of course) our government has no business promoting anything other than the assimilation of newcomers into the Canadian way of life.

I wonder how many of those 36,000 Lebanese who immigrated to Canada now hold both Lebanese and Canadian passports?

This happened back in the 90's, with thousands of Hong Kong citizens "becoming" Canadians, just in case things didn't work out after the handover from Britain to China. Some of them are still here, but many went back to HK, and keep their Canadian passports as a "get out of jail free" card.

It really makes me angry that Canada has so little faith in itself that it doesn't demand people give up their citizenship in another country if they want to become Canadian. We are just a passport of convenience to many. Feh.

With reference to stats on the numbers of Lebanese in Canada - according to stats Canada, using the 2001 census (but updated as of 2005), there are about 130,000 Lebanese in Canada. I checked out population demographics by 'ethnicity' by province.
Ontario has about 60,000; Quebec about 50,000; Alberta about 20,000. A few thousand in Nova Scotia and BC.

Then, in one post online, can't remember if it was the G&M or CBC or Star, I saw that there were only about 5,000 there on vacation! The rest???? Living and working in Lebanon but are Canadian citizens?

I'm puzzled. The 40,000 Canadians in Lebanon. Are they summer visitors? That's about 25% of the total population of Lebanese in Canada! As has been pointed out - that's quite a few plane trips daily! But, this other site referred to a more reasonable number of summer visitors - 5,000. So- who and what are the other 35,000?? What are they doing in Lebanon? I simply don't get it.

And, apparently Lebanese are on Parliament Hill, protesting, claiming that Harper doesn't 'care about civilians' (???then why is he the PM of Canada??); that the Canadian gov't hasn't moved 'fast enough' to get its 40,000 citizens out of Lebanon...But - what were they doing there in the first place? And, is a gov't supposed to have SWAT/DART teams, I mean, ships and planes, ready on 24 hours notice, to ship its 40,000 citizens out of a war-zone, if and when that country does become a war-zone, even if 24 hours before, it wasn't a war-zone?

Ships don't travel very fast, much to the surprise of some people. And Canada doesn't have big planes at its disposal to zip over to Lebanon at a moment's notice, to take out those 40,000 of its citizens.

And, I'm still stunned - that 21,000 have so far signed up to be removed, at taxpayer expense, from the country. What were they doing there? They weren't on 'summer vacation'; only 5,000 were. So- what are 40,000 Canadians doing in Lebanon?

bcf:

I would be careful in suggesting that one do away with the Geneva Convention.

As one of the fathers of the American Constitution noted Thomas Paine:

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

If one is going to argue the nobility or rightness of one's cause; one does not descend to the level of one's enemies. In short, if you want to eliminate wanton destruction, you don't engage in it yourself, if you have reasonable means to avoid it.

To do so, is to invite a wider full scope 'shitstorm'; which is what the G8 summit recently issued a statement that it wished to avoid. War is never pretty, and there are inevitably those who are in the wrong place at the wrong time. eg. 7 Canadians on the receiving end of an Israeli strike or 4 Canadian soldiers on the receiving end of a US bomb in Afghanistan.

Civilian casualties or friendly fire is simply the stuff of war; it is the byproduct not the intent of releasing munitions.

Hezbollah and Hamas acting as proxies for Iran and Syria respectively, agree that randomized death and destruction are legitimate tools to achieve the objective of 'wiping Israel off the map'. Hamas and Hezbollah objective is to exterminate Israel as a nation state. Their point blank refusal that Israel is even allowed to exist sets any peace framework a priori out of the question.
In short, Hamas and Hezbollah have constitutionally removed any chance of peace from the page. In this sense PM Stephen Harper's ME analysis is correct.

When the randomized violence hits your home, let me know if you are still ok with dispensing with the Geneva Convention. The general rule is you shoot at combatants, not the innocents caught in the crossfire. It is simple rubbish to contend that all peoples living under the subnational aegis of Hamas or Hezbollah are 100% in understanding with their world view, methods or objectives.

To accept such a viewpoint is akin to saying all Germans were 100% in agreement with Adolf and Co. during WWII. If such were true the legitimate response would have been to 'wipe Germany and Japan completely from the map'.History has shown this to be a false assumption. I think I will hold on to the Geneva Convention for some time longer.

The actions of Hezbollah are irrelevent; The real issue is that Israel is bombing a sovereign country, and that their actions are an outrage.

That's more or less the approach -- or at least the strong subtext -- of much western media coverage. I don't know how many commenters here have seen BBC world, but it's almost chilling, at times, it's so loaded with barely-supressed hatred of Israel. Several of the female news readers -- who appear to be of ME origin -- make little or no attempt to hide their editorializing facial expressions and inflections.

On CBC, a story showing the grief of the Canadian families of the Lebanese killed was presented immediately before Keith Boag's G8 report which culminated in a rhetorical question: the REAL issue, the real story was, he said, would Harper now, in light of these deaths, take back his statement that Israel's reponse was measured?

Yep, that shameless, prurient, opportunistic shot at Prime Minister Harper was the wrap-up note on the historic G8 summit by the CBC's "Chief Political Correspondent" whose coverage involves sending back little tattered pieces of dirty work done on behalf of his dead party. What a joke.

CBCpravda has now upped it to "40,000 to 50,000 thousands" or 40 to 50 million.

the numbers all look farfetched to me. Lebanon with 4 million people shouldnt be 1% Canadian.

anyway as always , when the going gets tough- a Canadian blames the government.

cal2, Or perhaps a Canadian passport is even easier to get than we suspected.

I don't know if this helps or hinders, but I read in some article that the U.S. has 25,000 citizens in Lebanon that it's planning to extract.

CTV puts the number of Canadians in Lebanon at 40-50,000.

dave - here is the link to what Totten has written most recently. He has strong criticism for some of the targets Israel has chosen, but he is also backing their action.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001184.html

Re Greg and ET's comments: I also find a bit odd that state that 40,000 Canadians are in Lebanon. That would mean that one in every 814 Canadians are in Lebanon. Hnnkwaa?

Speaking of opportunism, I read over at Celestial Junk Blog, that Chirac, the EverReady President of France, has suggested that France could go in and 'monitor' a peace process.

I can just image; Lebanon finally got its independence from France after WWII, and France never, ever, really, 'lets go' of its former colonies or dependencies. Chirac, as a Gaullist, would just love to get back into Lebanon. They'd do in - and never leave.

As for the numbers of Canadians in Lebanon, apparently, according to the CIA world fact book, there are over a million non-Lebanese workers in Lebanon. French? I wonder how many of the 40,000 Canadians are there, working, but have dual citizenship with Canada - to make use of in case of an emergency? I would think it would be extremely useful for a ME individual to have dual citizenship with Canada.
Only 25,000 US citizens in Lebanon? But 40,000 Canadians? Unbelievable.

Hans R., I appreciate your posts very much and usually find myself in agreement. However, re the Geneva Convention, I'm a little at odds with you, I think.

You say, "The general rule is you shoot at combatants, not the innocents". D'accord. However, when the combatants dress like and hide among the innocents--see my post above--how, exactly, does one do what you suggest? (And I believe that the Israelis, as much as possible--unlike their opponents--do try to avoid civilian casualties.)

Further, re the Geneva Convention: I find myself very sympathetic to bcf. Where's the integrity of this document and how does it work when only one side in the conflict is tied to the rules, while the other side ignores them all? Which side is acting fair? But which side has the deck stacked to win? A conundrum, don't you think?

Imagine the World Cup soccer finals with only two teams--though the stakes here are MUCH higher--where one team is stringently held to all the rules while the other one is exempt, and allowed to be exempt every time.

How would that go over? How long would the handicapped team be willing to abide by rules that are fair, if applied to each team, but punitive and unjust when applied to only one side?

Once war is engaged the goal, damn it, is to bloody well win! (Thanks, Tom Penn.) The West simpers and sidesteps this reality. Do we want to win or not? I sure do. I have no interest in seeing either my daughters or me dressed in burqas and being treated as virtual non-entities. (My husband agrees 100%!)

(As I passed a lovely, green, tree-lined corner in my neighbourhood today, I wondered what it might look like in 100 years' time: much as it is now--as some squares in London are--or denuded of beauty, the statue in the park smashed, and only men allowed out in the fresh air alone. Really, I did imagine that.)

My musings aren't altogether original: Mark Steyn--praises be upon him!--has opined that it will be tantamount to suicidal for Western nations to be, in effect, held hostage to the Geneva Convention if our enemies refuse to abide by it. Smart man, Mark Steyn. I altogether agree with him.

If the Geneva Convention is selectively applied, it deserves to be doomed. If Western Nations stupidly agree to be held to its obligations while their enemies are exempt, I guess the West deserves to be doomed.

I say to the West: WAKE UP and SMARTEN UP!

And I say to Israel: BLESS YOU and LET'S ROLL!

Israeli security officials say a rocket fired from Lebanon has hit a hospital in Safed
Posted by HAL9000
On 07/17/2006 12:59:06 PM PDT
via free republic

I despair for accurate coverage about Canadian efforts to evacuate Canadians, among other issues regarding the hostilities.
Less than twenty-four hours of the starting of the fireworks, television station CFPL London ONt. already featured ND MP Mathyssen criticizing Harper for not evacuating the vacationing Canadians form Lebanon!
The CTV Question Period is ready for some MSM payback as well.
I haven't watched CBC or Global but I suspect their jaundiced view of Israel defending itself will be no less skewed while putting Harper in their crosshairs on his stand about hezzbollah and Palestine's lack of peace negotiations, as he pronounced at the G8.
MSM Canadian news filters, bring news to Canadians.
Questionable at best.

Don't you just love the appeasers' new buzzword for Israeli combat actions, "disproportionate"?

I presume all these Western leftists would prefer that Israel engage in a much more Clintonesque response: a few faux outrage speeches, lobbing a cruise missile or two, perhaps a bombing mission or two, then back to business as usual, cruising down de river DeNial.

By dint of sheer necessity for survival, that is not Israel's way. The object of war for Israel, as it would be for any other democratic state, is the security of the Israeli nation and state.

As a friend of Israel, as an aware member of Western Civilization, I realize that a decidely DISproportionate war effort is necessary for Israel. Only by causing as massive as possible casualties to the Hamas terrorist organization in Gaza and the Hezbollah terrorist organization in Lebanon, as well as to their infrastructure, will the Israelis safeguard themselves and create-attention, bleeding heart leftists-DETERRANCE.

The Carteresque and Clintonesque approach merely invites more aggression. Only when aggression is perceived by potential aggressors, such as these Islamofascist terrorist organizations and, more specifically their sponsor states, to be cost-prohibitive, will they cease to commit such aggression.

Joe - MSM payback? For what? The problem is, that most of the Canadian MSM is Liberal, and therefore, they will be using this Israel-Lebanon situation to campaign for the Liberals. Against Harper.

They will blame Harper for everything. How about the Lebanese family who lost several members of their family and are blaming Harper for 'not caring about civilians'. What was he supposed to do that would show that he 'cared about civilians'???? Remember, the Hezbollah and Hamas, who are fronts for Iran-Syria, started this, with attacks, not merely military kidnappings on Israeli soil, but attacks on civilians.

So, for the MSM, this is a great opportunity to Campaign for the Liberals. Oh - the Liberal candidates seem to be rather quiet, don't they.

But the way, does anyone find it offensive that the Liberals are self-defining themselves as 'progressive'??? On quite a few blogs, and in the MSM, the Liberals seems to have self-defined themselves with that term. How are they 'progressive'? What does it mean? I know it sounds great - just like food stores with their 'passion for freshness'. But, actually, factually, what does it mean? What is progressive about the Liberals?? Corruption, money-laundering, cronyism, non-accountability, centralism, social engineering. Heck - those have been around forever. They are regressive.

Read down a few words: There is a sleeper sentence there. CSIS knows...

Surprise... surprise:

"Hezbollah's largest headquarters outside of the Middle East is located in Toronto"

G'wan... TO, aka Toronto, Ontario, Canada has the largest Hezbollah headquarters outside the Middle East and it is located in Toronto, Canada?

Next thing it'll be Toronto City Hall Hezbollah HQ and recruiting office. Right there on Nathan Phillips Square? Look up to the Green Roofs, Ali. There's the Crescent flag. ...-

Hezbollah Terrorist Sleeper Cell Suspected in New York City

AXcess News ^ | 16 July 06 | Jim Kouri
(AXcess News) New York - While many US government officials are deeply concerned over Iran's nuclear program, according to recent reports, investigations by the FBI and the Justice Department revealed last May that the Lebanon-based terrorist group, Hezbollah, may be plotting attacks. These attacks may be launched by their sleeper cells in New York and several other US cities.

According to the Canadian Security Intelligence

Service and the Jewish organization B'nai B'rith,

Hezbollah's largest headquarters outside of the

Middle East is located in Toronto....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1667340/posts

Hans R., "I appreciate your posts very much and usually find myself in agreement. However, re the Geneva Convention, I'm a little at odds with you, I think."

Well considering my mother hailed from Silesia in WWII in which some 2.6 million German civilians were sent into the hereafter courtesy of the Soviet occupation in post war hostilities; maybe I consider myself somewhat lucky to be here.

Further, considering that nearly 90% of the women in this area from age 10 to 80 were raped in post war hostilities; how ugly would you like the conflict to get?

If you want to throw out all the rules; and go for full blown ugly, just drop a nuke in and "let God sort them all out"?

Perhaps, taking the high road is the better part of valour; rather than having a detailed look at the far side of Hell.

In short, you don't have to become a viper to slay a viper. If you want to stop the flow of venom a simple shovel or long bladed device will remove the head.

Interesting - that the Hezbollah's largest recruiting, outside of the ME, is in Toronto. What does that say about Canada?

Apparently, reading the Star, the majority of the 40,000 Canadians in Lebanon are permenant residents there. I presume they hold dual citizenship. Or are they actually only Canadians? Why? But, 21,000 have applied to leave. Only 5,000 are actual visitors. So, 40,000 hold dual or Canadian-only citizenship but live permanently in Lebanon. That brings up the issue of such citizenship and why it is permitted and why Canadians have dual citizenship.

Our esteemed Haitian G-G, doesn't her husband, the socialist separatiste, have dual citizenship with France? And didn't they get such for their daughter? Why?

The Star is also reporting that the Canadian Arab Federation had issued a press release stating that Harper was responsible for the civilian deaths because he had not urged restraint on Israel. The logic, or rather, illogic of such a statement is mind-boggling. How can X-person, even if PM of a country, be responsible for the actions of another country?

Is Harper, then, responsible for the deaths of the Israeli citizens, because he didn't urge Hezbollah and Hamas to 'restrain themselves'?

Again, to focus attention on 'militant groups', such as Hamas and Hezbollah, and ignore that they are mere fronts for nations - Iran and Syria, is an error. I think that Israel has to be swift and strong, because the military actions are carried out by nations - Iran and Syria.

Fisk, of course, is Robert Fisk (search) who gave the English language the verb: to fisk.

Wretchard mentions "nuance": a lovely word, last seen used by John Kerry-Heinz in the 2004 US election. Kerry ran his campaign on nuance; nuance lost. ...-

Excerpt:

Apart from the fact that Fisk gloatingly admits that Hezbollah -- not Lebanon but Hezbollah the private organization -- not only planned a Pearl Harbor style surprise attack but deliberately dragged an innocent country to war with it, there is not much that is remarkable about his article.

He argues that if Israel is entitled to American weapons, Hezbollah the nonstate -- not Lebanon the state -- is entitled to Iranian weapons of whatever lethality. His private charity gets to do whatever it wants. That's Robert Fisk logic and you take it for what it is: a declaration of hostility towards everything in the West. He's not neutral, just on the other side.

It's not his fault that the West can never draw the appropriate conclusions.

Faced with categorical declarations that they will be exterminated, converted, enslaved and beheaded the most sophisticated thinkers in the West look for nuance.

They don't really believe those threats, however explicit, however open.

Even when huge skyscrapers come tumbling down it's understood in terms of installation art.

Someone is sending a message. What could it be?

Maybe, like Moussaoui, the senders simply had a bad childhood and really need someone who understands them. And that's exactly who they need: someone who understands them.

A lesser mortal who will painstakingly write down in pencil, word by word, just exactly what Osama bin Laden and Ahmadinejad have been uttering all these years and who will look up from his paper and say,

"you know boss, I think they want to kill us".
http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2006/07/thanks-robert.html

Wow. The Israel-can-do-no-wrong set are whipping themselves into a lather, I see.

No problem. So am I. The cold-blooded murder of children, for example, and the excuses from some in the Comments section, have me feeling a little ill. (I take special note of "prepping the battlefield" as the vilest euphemism yet for child-killing.

But go on pretending to talk geopolitics, by all means. If this sort of thing weren't happening, it would be fun to watch.

Moh/Allah have abandoned the Lebanese.

Prime Minister Harper is their next, best, great, white hope.

They are demanding a "guarantee safety". The chutzpah.

...-

Family calls on Ottawa to guarantee safety

MONTREAL (CP) - Friends and relatives of Canadians killed in an Israeli air strike in Lebanon want Prime Minister Stephen Harper to do more to guarantee the safety of Canadians in the Middle East. via cnews

An article on the front page of the WSJ today related that Israel has the daunting task of seeking and destroying a suspected 13,000 missiles stashed in and among civilian residences in southern Lebanon. Bless Israel, it has some very tough choices in the days ahead, and, sadly, a high casualty ground war in their future. It has no choice but to drain that swamp once and for all. When their boots hit the ground, the MSM weasels and their lefty patrons, will go ballistic, failing to equate and acknowledge that terrorist thugs always hide behind skirts, making civilian casualties impossible to minimize.

Hans R., I respect your family's experience and your horror of unrestricted, primeval violence. But I suggest that your response isn't altogether fair, as I believe you've overlooked my point.

You said, "If you want to stop the flow of venom a simple shovel or long bladed device will remove the head." I AGREE!

However, as the Israelis are attempting just such an action--totally justified in their position of fighting off the two-headed serpent of Hamas and Hezbollah--many cry foul and claim that their decisive actions are against the terms of the Geneva Convention, which only seems to apply to Israel, not its enemies.

On the other hand, despite the Geneva Convention, from which they seem to be exempt, the enemy's allowed to "remove the head" (even of innocent civilians)--LITERALLY--with apparent international impunity.

Just let Israel or the West try the very effective and necessary action of decisively removing a few figurative heads and they'll be denounced in two seconds. (Reference: the dodgy issue of the dead Canadians in Lebanon.)

This is WAR. As you well know, it's hell and bad things happen. It's altogether unfair and unjust to only hold one side--and the most civilized one at that--to account for unavoidable, distatseful consequences. (In fact, the deliberate atrocities of the OTHER side are exponentially WORSE than the collateral damage of the Israelis. Let's have the supporters of the Geneva Convention take that into account.)

That's all I'm positing: Either hold both sides to equal account or call off the attack dogs.

Hmm - 40k Canadian citizens in Lebanon...the numbers strongly suggest that the majority are not dual citizens of Canada and Lebanon. Who else would voluntarily travel there to "take the air"? Must be Danes, New Zealanders and Argentineans...NOT!

Hisballah/Hamas for all intents and purposes are part and partner with Al Qaeda and assoc. cells whose objective is to eradicate the Jewish state from region. Embedding their units in civilian communities while they launch rockets into northern Israel speaks to their utter cowardice and the G-8 has unequivocally stated that these terrorist cells initiated the aggression.

It's clear international support is gaining momentum from the international community which is also very aware of fact that Israel takes all care humanly possible to keep civilian casualties to minimum. Reports cited their aircraft released pamphlets to citizens before the blitz in order to warn them to extricate themselves from Hisballah factions.

If the Israeli assault needs to militarily confront Syria/Iran, what happens to the reported hundreds of thousands of Lebanese and international tourists which were admitted by Syria as 'guests' two days ago? Syria apparently admitted these high numbers for 'safe sanctuary', which would mean they have willing hostages with which to bargain. I haven't seen any further reports as to the disposition of these thousands of individuals apparently enjoying safe santuary in Syria.

Also the failure of the Arab League to come to a concensus on Israel's 'right to exist' doesn't help to diffuse the escalation in the region. It seems direct talks between the G-8 and Arab League should be pursued in international forum.

G-8's concensus statement a weak response at best on behalf of Israel's right to self defence. The choice is stark now -- stand up for Israel or for big oil. Which will it be and which SHOULD IT BE?

Thanks for the forum and congrats on the 3 million hit mark.

I said, "That's all I'm positing: Either hold both sides to equal account or call off the attack dogs."

What do you think Dr. Dawg? (Usually you don't.)

I suggest you crawl back under your rock.

Hezbollah, proxy of Iran and Syria, targets Israeli civilians in an unprovoked series of missile attacks.

When Israel responds by going after Hezbollah, who hide like cowards among Lebanese civilians, Dawg calls this "the cold-blooded murder of children" by Israel.

What's wrong with this picture?

Hint for anyone who's read Dawg's posts on Israel: it's a rhetorical question.

Dawg: Maybe you could post some pictures of Palestinian child suicide bombers next time - on second thought I guess that would be rather tough wouldn't it as there is not much left of them.

No one's supporting Palestinian pizza-parlour bombers. But there are plenty cheering on Israel. Maybe it's time you folks get a look at what you're cheering about.

Incidentally, the kids were in a bus leaving the area after being ordered to do so by Israeli forces. Where the hell was Hizbollah? Holding onto the axles?

But keep on making excuses and indulging in jejune personal attacks. It's all you've got--and that's not much, you know.

Dear Dr. Dawg

I am just curious, has there been any Israeli children injured or killed since this affair began last week. I have not seen any pictures yet, so no doubt that there hasn't been, correct? I formed this as a rhetorical question so you could give me a rhetorical answer (is there such a thing as a rhetorical answer?)

Maybe it's time you folks get a look at what you're cheering about.

DrDawg - I know what I'm cheering on - the total destruction of terrorist Hezbollah with their 13,000 missiles aimed at civilians, Islamofascist gutblowers that target children, and every stinken rotten terrorist that can't get out of bed in the morning because he's dead. I cheer anyone that avenges the savage death of my 9/11 countrymen and neighbors. I cheer anyone that doesn't hate women enough to imprison them in burqas and fights for their equal rights against the stone age customs of Islam. I cheer anyone that unmasks the fools that live among us like your smarmy self.

And, it's nothing personal on my part.

Do you ever wonder why people from other countries carry their war to canada.Must you be born here to only care about canada mostly.I wish those who are not of this persuasion go home or whereever .People such as draft dogers dont fight for their country why would they fight for canada. So why should we support them.Things as compensating people who fought against us in ww2 drive real canadians such as veterans up the wall.Lets end all compensation for these groups and so called native groups.My father was a medic in the war in Italy ..god bless the military.Send all phoney canadians home??

Do you ever wonder why people from other countries carry their war to canada.Must you be born here to only care about canada mostly.I wish those who are not of this persuasion go home or whereever .People such as draft dogers dont fight for their country why would they fight for canada. So why should we support them.Things as compensating people who fought against us in ww2 drive real canadians such as veterans up the wall.Lets end all compensation for these groups and so called native groups.My father was a medic in the war in Italy ..god bless the military.Send all phoney canadians home??

I love how the dawg-faced boy turns up every once in a while in an attempt to drum up visitors to his greatly ignored site. Ignored, that is, except for his small circle of friends including Bi-Guy, "Fuck The Jews" McClelland, and Fat Tony Zerbisias.

I look forward to photos of whole families blown to bits of Bar Mitzvahs, and close-up of what those orthodox guys are doing when they scape bits of flesh and bone from the asphalt.

But I won't hold my breath.

Foreign nationals in Lebanon, according to the Beeb:

Britain: 10,000
France: 20,000
Australia: 25,000
Canada: 40,000
Denmark: 2,300
Sweden: 5,000
Spain: 600
Italy: 1,000
Germany: 1,100
Philipines: 30,000
Ukraine: 1,600
Romania: 600
Bulgaria: 500
Finland: 160
New Zealand: 40

Stand fast, Prime Minister Harper.

Stand with Israel.

Long live freedom and democracy. ...-

Harper stands firm in support of Israel despite Canadian deaths

The deaths of seven Canadians during Israel’s bombing of Lebanon have not changed Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s position on the crisis in the Middle East. ...-
via nealenews

I am just curious, has there been any Israeli children injured or killed since this affair began last week. I have not seen any pictures yet, so no doubt that there hasn't been, correct? I formed this as a rhetorical question so you could give me a rhetorical answer (is there such a thing as a rhetorical answer?)

Well, there are a few of those on this very thread. : )

The only Israeli civilian deaths I am aware of are in Haifa (8). I have seen no reports that these included children. I think we would have heard by now if there had been.

I'm curious, Dawg, how do you feel about Hezbollah and their rocket attacks on Israel?

mississauga matt - thanks for the statistics. The Star has just upped the number of Canadians in Lebanon to 50,000 - 'most are dual citizens who live there permanently'.

What I would like to know - is why do so many Canadians have this 'dual citizenship'? What are the benefits that Canada is giving them - which aren't available via the other countries? Canada has the highest number of all countries. Why? Why?

Again, this war has little, indeed, almost nothing to do with Israel-Palestine. It's really about Iran. Iran wants a war with the west. It has nothing to do with helping the Palestinians. It's all about Iran and Islamic fascism. Iran is using Hamas and Hezbollah - and Israel. It is trying to escalate the situation, to get Israel to attack Syria - so that Iran will get directly involved. At the moment, Iran is indirectly involved because it is running Hamas and Hezbollah.

Israel is trying to reduce the Hezbollah's strength and thus, their capacity to be used by Iran and Syria.

All the world is calling for restraint by Isreal, tell me, just what the hell does that word mean. After nearly 60 years those people are going though the same damn thing, year after year, when are you allowed to say this is it, one more time and I am going to wipe you. The left-ern world likes that word because they can then be seen and heard to be compasionate. Compasionate my ass, compassion is ending the conflict once and for all by whatever means so both sides can eventually live normal lives. Is comapssion allowing this conflict to go on another 60 years so you can be seen to be compasionate the fact aside that hundreds will die every year. If that is compassion in the eyes of god/allah then give me a wooden idol.

I saw member's of the Lebanese family on TV. One lady cried out, in French, that her country was in ruins.

She wasn't talking about Canada.

She wasn't even talking about Quebec.

Then another family member said he loved Hizb'Allah.

Kinda stepping in it a bit, but I guess they have to be given some slack.

Hey dawg, the fact that only eight civilians have been killed by Hezbolla rocket attacks, is not for lack of trying. I guess that little fact is lost on you.

Objective reporting in action from the Star article previously referenced:

http://tinyurl.com/ge9ge

"Harper’s seeming lack of nuance, empathy and people skills are making his week-long diplomatic foray, which included a visit to Britain before attending his first G8 meeting, an excruciating exercise."

Curious minds want to know for whom it was so excruciating...

OK, this is really off-topic, and I know some people won't appreciate the humour, but..

On the "The Simpsons" tonight, the episode concerned the future of Bart and Lisa. As Principal Skinner congratulates the graduating class, he says "I offer my best wishes to those of you going on to college, and to those of you going to Gulf War V "The Search for the President's Head".

I am a 5th generation of Irish immigrants who came here because of despicable circumstances in Ireland. We have propered peacefully except for our contributions to two World Wars as Canadians. It is time for Israel with international help to implement the UN resolution to disarm Hezbollah and, if necessary, by destroying Hezbollah on the battlefield - the sooner the better before the whiners gain some control.

I am a 5th generation of Irish immigrants who came here because of despicable circumstances in Ireland. We have propered peacefully except for our contributions to two World Wars as Canadians. It is time for Israel with international help to implement the UN resolution to disarm Hezbollah and, if necessary, by destroying Hezbollah on the battlefield - the sooner the better before the whiners gain some control.

ET:

What I would like to know - is why do so many Canadians have this 'dual citizenship'? What are the benefits that Canada is giving them - which aren't available via the other countries? Canada has the highest number of all countries. Why? Why?

An excellent bevy of insightful posts.

Western Canadian as well. You hit it right on the nose, with no gloves. I agree completely with this sentiment.

Is compassion allowing this conflict to go on another 60 years so you can be seen to be compassionate the fact aside that hundreds will die every year

Especially your Pointing out of this anomaly.

You know that was the first Question I asked myself, after reading this stat. What in heavens name is 50,000 Canadians doing in Lebanon. Are they just living there & using Canadian citizenship as an out?

Working for Parks I have meet many Lebanese groups at reserve functions. Most of the older folks tend to talk about retiring in there Homeland there.

Most of there Canadian born kids, go there quite frequently for visits.

If I had to venture a guess. I would say this situation generally follows the Mexican one in the US. Work here than leave when funds permit a good life in Lebanon. Sounds to familiar to me.

Just a personnel supposition.

As for Israel & Jewish safety. After the World has tried to exterminate them 5 times. I think they have the right of it if not an obligation to there children. Just a personnel supposition.

Frankly the rest of the World has no moral right to say anything. The British kicked them out in 1215 & the Spanish in 1498. Including there Christian marinaos population. It took them like England, 300 years to recover . The Russians had incessant programs. Under the Soviets it was no different. The Germans, well we all know what they did. Rome in her day killed millions in two Jewish Roman wars. One By Vespasian, the other Hadrian. I could chronicle many many other atrocities done them. IS it too much that they have there own land & the ability to fight them that would kill them all?

I feel for the family's who lost loved ones in this war. Particularly the children. I have to ask though . Why would any parent in there right minds keep a child in a war zone?

We do need to question the very large numbers of Canadians in Lebanon.

The United States has some 25,ooo citizens there. Canada 40-50,000! That is some kind of weird ratio!

Who can explain it?

Do they partake of our health care system and more, when they need it, without putting in a dime of taxes since they live in Lebanon?

If they have dual citizenship, why don't they get the Lebanese government to get them out of the war zone.

I for one, want to see a whole lot more explanation for where our money goes here...a whole lot!

And when I hear the very public family say that the Hezbollah was protecting their house in Lebanon, I expect they could then ask the Hezbollah to get them to safety.

We need to ask that these people take responsibility for deliberately going to live in, or visit, a known war zone.

And most assuredly they need to take responsibility for taking their children to a known war zone!

And what other country has the same arrangement with Canada, of dual citizenship advantages, that we all get to pay for?

while I agree with the general spirit of the post.. there is a label of deception we should not accept in this..,

Very few countries in the world today possess sophisticated antiship missiles, military drones or ballistic rockets. Certainly Kofi Annan's Ghana does not. Yet nonstate Hezbollah does. And in a while, though it is pooh-poohed, nonstate entities like al-Qaeda, LET, or the Hezbollah itself could acquire chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.

Hezbollah is a proxy of Iran and so not really a **nonstate entity**.

It is Iran*s immense oil wealth that affords Hezbolah the modern sophisticated long range weapons that most NATIONS can not afford to have in any real quantity.

Logically then Isreal could demand Iran withdraw their proxy [Hezbollah] or suffer the consequences directly.

If there is going to be a mess on the carpet it should be on Iran*s not on Lebanon*s carpet.

Messy question, you say?

Why is Chretien not behind bars?

Another messy question? TG

For those prattling on about the evils of dual citizenship, a reality check:

Canada allows dual nationality. Of course, Canada could insist that those becoming Canadian citizens renounce their former citizenship.

But this would merely be a symbolic gesture with no legal basis.

Obviously, all countries reserve the right to determine their own citizenship requirements. It's not up to Canada to decide whether someone is a Lebanese citizen or not; it's up to Lebanon.

Effectively, a person who "renounced" their former citizenship to become Canadian could still be legally considered a citizen of that country regardless. It's the country's call, not the individual's.*

The only way to ensure no "dual citizens" in Canada would be to restrict citizenship to those born in Canada (even so, many of these could still be dual citizens by default).**

So you're effectively shutting down any immigration.

* Remember that female Canadian journalist in Iran? As far as Iran was concerned, she was Iranian.

** Example: if your Dad was born in Newcastle, England but you were born in Medicine Hat, Alberta, you're a British citizen, chum.

We need to ask that these people take responsibility for deliberately going to live in, or visit, a known war zone.

And most assuredly they need to take responsibility for taking their children to a known war zone!

Additionally, they must have known that they were going into a terrorist-controlled zone. They must have known that Hizb'Allah controls the area, that Hizb'Allah was operating in civilian areas, and that Hizb'allah was launching rockets at Israel in large numbers.

But they had no qualms about going, at least not enough to stop them from doing so.

Hey, here's one for the dawg-faced boy: unconfirmed reports of Hizb'Allah firing on Lebanese.

Army Radio is airing reports now that Hezbollah is firing on Lebanese citizens who are trying to flee their towns after being warned by Israeli Air Force leaflets that they will come under fire and are trying to get away!?

No doubt there will be pictures at the dawg pile if confirmed. OK then, there's a lot of doubt.

And yet another one for the dawg-faced boy:

An Arab prisoner Hizballah wants Israel to release in exchange for the two Israeli soldiers it abducted in a cross-border raid last week is serving multiple life sentences for an attack in which he killed a four-year-old girl by smashing her skull with a rifle butt.

Samir Kuntar is one of only two or three Lebanese prisoners still held by Israel, and Hizballah said its July 12 assault is aimed at winning his freedom.
...
A website set up by family members says Kuntar was jailed "for killing several Israelis in a raid on northern Israel."

Israeli media and eyewitness accounts of the incident provide much more detail. Kuntar was one of a four-man group that crossed into Israel by sea, sent on the mission by the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), an affiliate of Yasser Arafat's PLO.

In the coastal town of Nahariya, the terrorists shot dead a policeman and forced their way into an apartment building, where they captured Danny Haran and his daughter, Einat, 4.

While the terrorists rampaged through the apartment, firing weapons and detonating grenades, Haran's wife Smadar hid in a crawlspace above the couple's bedroom together with their other daughter, two-year-old Yael, and a neighbor.

In an effort to prevent Yael from crying out and alerting the terrorists to their whereabouts, Smadar kept her hand over the child's mouth, and accidentally smothered her to death.

Meanwhile Kuntar and his group took Danny and Einat Haran to the beach.

"Then he smashed my little girl's skull in against a rock with his rifle butt. That terrorist was Samir Kuntar."

"The only Israeli civilian deaths I am aware of are in Haifa (8). I have seen no reports that these included children. I think we would have heard by now if there had been." - Dr. Dawg

Thanks to several people for responding to the good dr.'s answer to my question. Had to play ball and assumed correctly that people here would pick up on the sarcasm and respond in the appropriate manner to him. Seems to be a problem with the sarcasm detectors, read QOTW and laughed like hell.

"Obviously, all countries reserve the right to determine their own citizenship requirements. It's not up to Canada to decide whether someone is a Lebanese citizen or not; it's up to Lebanon."

While a country may determine its own criteria for citizenship requirement, *its other citizens* are within their rights, to ask that new citizens swear allegiance to one, and only one, country.

Canadians have witnessed the lack of ability/response from their *other* country of allegiance, Lebanon, to get them out.

We know better about a whole lot more now, including where allegiances lie, when it suits.

~~~
"So you're effectively shutting down any immigration."

Well, that is about the most ridiculous thing I have read in a while.

If people want to come here, and be given all the rights the rest of us enjoy, they best get over the *minor inconvenience* of dropping their old citizenship.

"If people want to come here, and be given all the rights the rest of us enjoy, they best get over the *minor inconvenience* of dropping their old citizenship."

Except, my dear fellow, you forget that they may have absolutely NO legal entitlement to "drop their old citizenship."
That decision remains entirely within the purview of the country in which they hold that citizenship, not the individual.

Canada has absolutely NO authority to cancel Lebanese (or any other) citizenship; it can only cancel Canadian citizenship. Canada could require all those Lebanese to renounce their Lebanese citizenship (the US approach) but this would mean nothing unless the Lebanese government recognized their renunciation - which it is not obliged to do.

You would indeed have to more or less shut down immigration entirely in order to be sure there were no more dual citizens. You'd also have to make it illegal for Canadians to marry a foreigner or be born in another country.

Two last points:

1. It's complicated.

2. You need to get out more.

Canada has absolutely NO authority to cancel Lebanese (or any other) citizenship

I would suggest that Canada has LESS responsibility for nationals who make a permanent home abroad than it has towards those of us with a permanent Canadian address.

"Except, my dear fellow, you forget that they may have absolutely NO legal entitlement to "drop their old citizenship."

First: "May" is a complicated word in the legal world.

Many of us assumed, innocently enough, that if people came here to Canada, they would be *fully grateful* enough to forego any other alliance.

Silly us, huh, expecting complete honesty when they sign on to our citizenship. Oh, we will "get out" on this, you can be sure.

Second: The honesty of allegiance to this country by those holding dual citizenship, may be of no interest/consequence to you.

Obviously for others of us, now, it is.

And in that vein, where is the expectation from those who have gone back to live in their *other* country, that Lebanon step up, and get them out of there?

Third: Assumptions re "dear fellow" would be a mistake. But you knew that too;)

So there are +/- 40,000 Canadians 'marooned' in Lebanon I hear. Funny how a couple of weeks ago the were hyphenated – but now they lose the hyphen and cut the mother land and run. Before the tragic ‘tourists’ are repatriated (by cruise ship no less) from their shortened perpetual holiday in Lebanon, I have a couple of questions for the Canadian Parliament.
1. How many of these Canadian ‘tourists’ to Lebanon receive social services payments from the Government of Canada?
2. Who is paying for the cruise out of Lebanon, and,
3. When the cruise docks in Canada, where will the 40,000 be accommodated. I better not hear any fucking talk about ‘temporary’ shelter in 5 star hotels under any circumstances!!!! Not with my tax dollars.

If the Hezbollah zones are a nation within a nation, there are lots of nations within nations within Canaduh where we can house them.

and lots have no roads.

time to draw a line in the muskeg .

"I would suggest that Canada has LESS responsibility for nationals who make a permanent home abroad than it has towards those of us with a permanent Canadian address."

A Canadian citizen is Canadian citizen, chum, whether they choose to live in Timbuktu or Regina.