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July 11, 2006

The Future Of News


For two days in late May

... 27 editors and publishers met at Poynter to discuss, dissect and develop ideas and predictions about that future in this new world of blogging and citizen journalism and podcasts and all of the still-to-come delivery platforms that are on the drawing boards or in the minds of technological wizards.

Talk revolved around a number of disparate issues:

  • The new relationship with an audience that is choosing from a much larger menu of media choices.
  • The need for rapid product development.
  • The pressure to be all things to all people.
  • The general distrust of the news media by more and more people.
  • The Internet's potential for journalism.
  • The question of whether editors can be trusted to lead change quickly enough.

  • For the mainstream media, this is no longer an esoteric discussion - it's becoming a matter of survival.

    nyt.jpg

    A related story - though they trail their counterparts in the US, Canadian politicians are beginning to pay attention as "unpredictable online journals [gain] credibility".

    The Liberal leadership race, like no other political contest before it, is being waged in the "blogosphere" — the rollicking, unpredictable world of online diarists and self-made political pundits.

    Would-be Liberal leaders are seeking interviews with bloggers; there are blog endorsements, campaign blogs and bloggers who are doing double duty as leadership organizers.

    The development signals several important political shifts: the rising credibility of the online dialogues, the parties' increasing use of the Internet, as well as the need for this Liberal race to be waged in creative new ways because of limited money and a large field of candidates.

    The bloggers haven't replaced the mainstream media — or MSM as it's called on the blogs — but they are gaining a currency in the political market that they haven't had to date.


    Good mentions for Cherniak, Calgary Grit and Ted, along with direct links to their sites. (That seems to be a relatively new development at The Star, where only a few months ago, I was quoted but attribution stripped away during editing). However, the thrust of the article suggests writer Susan Delacourt still doesn't quite understand (nor perhaps do the majority of Lib Bloggers) where the real leverage points lie for political bloggers in influencing the broader political debate.

    And I'm not telling them, either.

    While we're on the topic, Sister Toldjah has tips that you newer bloggers might check out.

    (You may use this thread for related tips on blogging related items, or discussion of same.)

    More, from CMP in the comments;

    As someone working inside the MSM, of mature years and who feeds the hand that bites me, in that I am an avid reader of blogs and personally use the Net as my primary news source, I am yet surprised at reporters and editors of my acquaintance, and half my age at that, who seem to have no idea how to use the Internet for basic research, fact checking, reference, story ideas and new angles, and so on. They tread their well-worn paths, file the same old stories, with the self-imposed ignorance of journalism passed off as "objectivity," on top of being products of an education system best described as barely adequate. As well, too many of them, having known no other education or work than that of journalism, live in a bubble world, where they only socialize with or marry other journalists, and share the same attitudes - typically left-leaning and liberal.

    I have lately been reading James Grey's book "Troublemaker" and his description of the knowledge and depth expected of even a middling reporter or editor in his day would put today's know-nothings to shame.

    Posted by Kate at July 11, 2006 11:50 AM
    Comments

    What I find hard to believe is that among the population that is internet savvy, there are still those that lap up MSM slop and gruel like there is no tomorrow.

    Because of the internet, when a story, for example, about Sharia law in Pakistan is presented by the Mother Load (of crap) I know immediately on what points they are lacking, what they have chosen to omit, where they twist the language, etc.

    Did the average citizen have access to this level of information before blogs and aggregates? Absolutely not.

    The Revolution has begun and the MSM is sinking fast.

    Posted by: Doug at July 11, 2006 12:32 PM

    This you will find interesting..

    A security Q&A about Canada with Moderate Muslim leader Sheikh Abdul Hadi Palazzi.

    -www.amislam.com/macleans.htm

    TG

    Posted by: TG at July 11, 2006 12:37 PM

    "direct links... new development at the Star..."
    I'll be a little more impressed when the Star links to sites that disagree with its editorial views.

    Posted by: andycanuck at July 11, 2006 12:44 PM

    "And I'm not telling them, either."

    good thing,

    Posted by: DrWright at July 11, 2006 12:44 PM

    I'll be watching for that too, andyc.

    Posted by: Kate at July 11, 2006 12:45 PM


    I read an interesting comentary a while back asking "When's the last time you heard anyone talking about UFO abductions?" The point being that anyone who now makes these claims instantly gets torn apart on the internet.

    The days of being able to make claims you can't back up are over. One of the best examples is the whole manmade global warming BS, it's probably the biggest PR\propaganda campaign in human history and people aren't buying it in droves.

    Freedom of speech is rocking the globe. I say rock'on.

    Posted by: Farmer Joe at July 11, 2006 12:47 PM

    Susan Delacourt " the Bloogers havn't replaced the mainstream media". THEY HAVE FOR ME. For a year already.
    I have always been a News Hound. For decades I watched The National faithfully. But as the years went by I found myself, and others, shaking my head in disbelief. The "report" often bore no resemblence to the real story.
    SPIN,SPIN,SPIN.
    I always wondered how countries could fall out of democracy, and how good, ordinary citizens could be so clued-out. I would bet that the media has often had a hand in it.
    CBC Promoter; "the glue that keeps this country together" Ya, right.

    Posted by: B. Hoax Aware at July 11, 2006 12:49 PM

    CBC--the glue--Some of us have noticed that a steady diet of glue tends to clog the mind.

    Posted by: George at July 11, 2006 12:55 PM

    CBC-- Sort of like something stuck to your shoe that you cant get rid of.

    And I dont mean glue.

    Posted by: Red Dodge at July 11, 2006 12:58 PM

    "And I'm not telling them, either"

    its called 'need to know' basis.

    kudos to the next big societal shift in info gathering.

    get 'em while theyre hot, there will be filtering and censoring mechanisms in place in our lifetime. it will happen. the levers of power and all that.

    Posted by: Robert J BA BSc at July 11, 2006 1:10 PM

    cbc glue:

    they bin sniffing it then ???

    Posted by: Robert J BA BSc at July 11, 2006 1:12 PM

    As the New York Times chart clearly shows paper methods of communication are declining if not on their way out.

    MSM has yet to come to grips with the information revolution giving seismic shifts in the "CONTROL" of information. For people who like FREEDOM of information this is a great boon. Dictators and other assorted control freaks will be discomfitted; which is not a bad thing.

    CTassV, Pravda, and Cosmic Bullshit Corp. and other assorted ilk, will have their feet gently toasted by the fireside as the spin doctoring voodoo magicians are relegated to 'extremis stupendis' in the same manner that soothesayers have any currency.

    Repeating political mantras, no matter how often, does not make them true. This is the logical error of past practice.

    Well hells bells, we've ripped off the public for years, therefore we should continue to do so.

    This is one reason, I am glad control of the internet was not given to the UN; in view of their delightful record in 'protecting human rights'. Just what you need is some tinpot nutbars telling the public what they can or cannot express.

    Short of libel and slander, people can express any opinion they want, hopefully based on reason and fact. Why on God's green earth do I or anyone else need corporate interests to filter, coach, coax, influence, and pander to vested interests? Either those positions can stand scrutiny in the light of day or they vanish as not worthy of support.

    REAL FREEDOM after all is SCARY to vested interests. Where have we heard the SCARY phrase before? You be the judge.

    CBC Promoter; "the glue that keeps this country together". Hardly, it is the 'sap trap' that prevents people from truly thinking about the nature and substance of their country because it abjectly refuses to stray beyond accepted political doctrine.

    Questioning authority has always been hazardous, and the pay is poor. But the exhiliration of freedom is nonetheless compelling.

    Question authority, it results in a less stultifying society.

    Posted by: Hans Rupprecht at July 11, 2006 1:18 PM

    Hans You said it all. One question I do have is: has anyone ever asked mansbridge what he thinks of all the millions of complaints about cbc's lack of integrity?

    Posted by: melwilde@hotmail.com at July 11, 2006 1:40 PM

    Kate and DrWright,

    I won't tell them either...Let them find out for themselves.

    ROTFLMAO

    Posted by: David Brown at July 11, 2006 1:51 PM

    Farmer Joe - I don't think that the days of being able to make claims without evidence are over. They'll never be over. The human mind has a great capacity for 'fiction'. Sometimes this is beneficial (hmm, I wonder how I could fly; how could I invent a machine-to-fly..). And sometimes, it's harmful (hmm..the WTC was taken down by bombs planted by Bush and Co; see how easily the chicken wire....).

    But the the internet and the computer, together, make for a phenomenal structural change in how we deal with information. First, it's aspatial and atemporal. It ignores space and time. We hear, instantly, what is going on elsewhere in the world. Equally, we can instantly check its stored data base for past data. And, with the computer, we can 'map out' simulations of 'what might be' in the future.

    Second, the 'agents' of this information search and collation, are not authorities, such as the editors and news agents, who speak to us in a linear, one-way manner. The 'agents' are - us. We check out the data, we talk, talk, to each other, and an error of fact and/or logic is instantly rebutted by somone else.

    That is, our information is now 'self-developing' and 'self-correcting'. And it does this almost instantaneously. No linear method (newspaper, television, radio) can match the power of information generation, correction and transmission of the internet-computer system.

    So, we have two interesting changes. One, is the removal of authoritarian power from information. Information 'exists'; it emerges, it spreads, it self-corrects. No-one authoritarian individual can stop this process. [they can try...]

    Two, is the massive and open access to information. The ease of access to check, verify, inform outselves of information is astonishing and has simply never, ever, occurred in our history.

    Will this make brainwashing of a population more difficult? I don't know. I think many people prefer fiction to fact.

    Posted by: ET at July 11, 2006 2:13 PM

    CBC Promoter; "the glue that keeps this country together" Ya, right.

    B.Hoax Aware; it's that cheap water based glue that dissolves in the rain.

    Posted by: dmorris at July 11, 2006 2:20 PM

    Good points ET. I think the real strength of the blogosphere lies in what someone described as the equivalent of Sherlock Holmes' "Baker Street Irregulars" -- this virtually inexhaustable pool of people, armed with digital cameras as needed, that can rapidly verify, analyze and comment. Rathergate represented a sea change that the MSM still hasn't grasped -- obviously fake "proof" was ripped to shreds within minutes by nine-year olds eating their Fruit Loops and unshaven dads sitting bleary-eyed in their dressing gowns sipping their coffee. A million expert witnesses as well as analysts from all possible occupations and professions stand ready at an instant to hold a story up to the day light. Those denying reality have to get nuttier and nuttier in their lunacy in order to prop up their fruit cake ideas -- not that they won't try.

    Posted by: DrD at July 11, 2006 2:29 PM

    Kate...One question about blogs I have been wondering,most specifically SDA as it is successful,is what percentage of visitors actually post too?
    I know talk radio has a very tiny percentage of listeners that actually call in.Personally,I never have,guess my ego couldn't take being dismissed or cut off for an ad. :)
    When I discovered the blogosphere a mere 8 months ago,I was immediately hooked.Truths,lies,biases,ideas,all set out like a huge buffet where I can choose what I would like to consume instead of the MSM cramming tainted crap down my throat.(burp)

    So,unless the info is classified,about what % of readers actually post?(or is it too hard to decipher with us regulars hopping from thread to thread and'refreshing'for updates?)

    Thanks again for this forum!

    Posted by: Canadian Observer at July 11, 2006 2:44 PM

    About 1 - 3%, based on unique commentors and traffic patterns.

    Posted by: Kate at July 11, 2006 3:05 PM

    As someone working inside the MSM, of mature years and who feeds the hand that bites me, in that I am an avid reader of blogs and personally use the Net as my primary news source, I am yet surprised at reporters and editors of my acquaintance, and half my age at that, who seem to have no idea how to use the Internet for basic research, fact checking, reference, story ideas and new angles, and so on. They tread their well-worn paths, file the same old stories, with the self-imposed ignorance of journalism passed off as "objectivity," on top of being products of an education system best described as barely adequate. As well, too many of them, having known no other education or work than that of journalism, live in a bubble world, where they only socialize with or marry other journalists, and share the same attitudes - typically left-leaning and liberal.
    I have lately been reading James Grey's book "Troublemaker" and his description of the knowledge and depth expected of even a middling reporter or editor in his day would put today's know-nothings to shame.

    Posted by: CMP at July 11, 2006 3:08 PM

    Me thinks the chart above has the colors reversed. The direction of the NYT is right but it looks more in the "red" than the S&P 500. Looks like the Times isn't an anomoly either. Washington Post stock in down in the toilet too. Appropriate description I guess.

    Posted by: texas canuck at July 11, 2006 3:21 PM

    Interesting thread. For me, I stopped watching TV news years ago unless something earthshaking (like tearing down the Berlin Wall) was going on. But I listen to newsradio in my car. I'm an active participant on several blogs, but I still read a daily newspaper. (It's the Post now, after decades of the Globe - what a shame that paper has become.) So, I'm straddling the MSM/blog wall.

    I remember Macluhan's gnomic "People don't read their morning paper as much as they take a bath in it", and I think that about sums it up. I like that morning ritual of coffee and the paper, and I like that someone else sifts through everything that's going on and presents it to me. It's comfortable.

    On the other hand, I like the instant give and take of the blogosphere, and the fact that I get to shove in my two cents as often as Kate will allow. And, as DrD notes, the fibbers and the fatuous get ripped to shreds pretty quickly.

    Finally, I just checked the ratings; CTV, Global, and the CBC combined have less than 3 million viewers for their national newscasts combined. That means 90% of Canadians ignore them.

    Posted by: KevinB at July 11, 2006 3:23 PM

    CMP, ET and DrD - good points.

    CMP - I think you nailed the huge problem with today's "journalists", those insipid and basically undereducated souls without core competencies in science, history and the classic liberal arts. Like the weathergirl, with no background in meteorology, they just chirp the lines when give a task. She couldn't define an isobar or barometic pressure to save her life. Today's journalism is form over substance. The other part of the equation is that news now is a "product"(their words).

    All one has to do is watch a Presidentual press conference, paying close attention to the stupidity of the follow-up questions, to see the sorry state of journalism.

    The internet killed off travel agents and the $50 a trade over the phone stock brokers. The MSM "product" is diminishing too because they can't defend their real estate either.

    The clueless preening in that article, subtitled "Journalism Matters" is hilarious. A death by a thousand paper cuts(no pun intended) can't happen to a more deserving group. A clue to their demise is that the more loser a group or corporation is the more convening they do. And, they become more strident in how much they matter. My signal to short the stock.

    Posted by: penny at July 11, 2006 4:16 PM

    I lock out CBC on all my tvs at home and when I want to find out about anything the last place is the MSM. I DO NOT TRUST THEM!!!!

    Posted by: FREE at July 11, 2006 4:17 PM

    CMP: David Pugliese and Mike Blanchfield of the Ottawa Citizen, who write on defence issues a lot, are perfect illustrations of your point.
    http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/006880.html
    http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/006094.html

    Mark
    Ottawa

    Posted by: Mark Collins at July 11, 2006 4:24 PM

    ET said- "Will this make brainwashing of a population more difficult? I don't know. I think many people prefer fiction to fact."

    True enough, but I think when something really matters to people its the truth they want to know. And I think the more sophisticated and used to cyber-sleuthing we get the more people are going to want to know what the truth is on more issues. Heck the search is most of the fun.

    Posted by: Farmer Joe at July 11, 2006 4:45 PM

    Hey, are any of the candidates paying for blog input. Volpe, maybe?

    That would be fun!

    Posted by: jlc at July 11, 2006 5:20 PM

    Hey, are any of the candidates paying for blog input. Volpe, maybe?

    That would be fun!

    Posted by: jlc at July 11, 2006 5:21 PM

    The Media Army is in a staff planning conference deciding its options: Attack Harper, attack Army, attack Def.Min O'Connor, attack Harper, attack Bush, attack BUsharper, attack Hans Island. TBA Network is carrying the show live as we type. ...-


    Fallen soldier's repatriation to be closed

    Globe and Mail - 10 hours ago
    A ceremony this week to mark the return of the body of fallen soldier Corporal Anthony Boneca will not be open to the media, National Defence said Tuesday. The decision came at the request of Cpl. Boneca's family. ..
    google news

    Posted by: maz2 at July 11, 2006 7:51 PM

    Maz2 said: "ATTACK HANS ISLAND"

    I don't think so, I've already had to fend those damnable Danes!!

    As to Cpl Boneca my comment from Damianpenny:

    Judging by father Antonio's statement and reading the full text of Cpl Boneca's email elsewhere on the 'net it is painfully obvious that the media is attempting to shape the news rather than report it.

    To the memory of a fallen soldier, it is simply disgraceful that even in the hour of his death we have idiots trying to misrepresent their memory.

    But then given we have youth literally pissing on the National War Memorial should we be surprised that the media/youth believe in nothing at all.

    We are constantly reminded by the media that we are a tolerant people. I would counter with the words of GK Chesterton:

    "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."

    Thank God Cpl. Anthony did not FALL into that category; rather it appears he had an UNDYING conviction. Something to be admired in a soldier one would think.

    Godspeed Cpl. Boneca.

    Posted by: Hans Rupprecht at July 11, 2006 8:11 PM

    [CBC--the glue--Some of us have noticed that a steady diet of glue tends to clog the mind.]
    Thats funny. We all know that the CBC uses screws, not glue as they claim.

    Regarding Calgary Grit above (I think), there was a Barbeque for the Liberal candidates this past weekend - get this - AT THE ZOO!

    I'm sure that they had to put the Candidates back in their cages after the Barbecue.

    How many escaped the grill, I ask?

    LMAO.

    crb

    Posted by: crb at July 11, 2006 9:15 PM

    [CBC--the glue--Some of us have noticed that a steady diet of glue tends to clog the mind.]
    Thats funny. We all know that the CBC uses screws, not glue as they claim.

    Regarding Calgary Grit above (I think), there was a Barbeque for the Liberal candidates this past weekend - get this - AT THE ZOO!

    I'm sure that they had to put the Candidates back in their cages after the Barbecue.

    How many escaped the grill, I ask?

    LMAO.

    crb

    Posted by: crb at July 11, 2006 9:16 PM

    [CBC--the glue--Some of us have noticed that a steady diet of glue tends to clog the mind.]
    Thats funny. We all know that the CBC uses screws, not glue as they claim.

    Regarding Calgary Grit above (I think), there was a Barbeque for the Liberal candidates this past weekend - get this - AT THE ZOO!

    I'm sure that they had to put the Candidates back in their cages after the Barbecue.

    How many escaped the grill, I ask?

    LMAO.

    crb

    Posted by: crb at July 11, 2006 9:20 PM

    20 years from now people, you are all going to look at this as the golden age of blogging.

    what is the avg chronological age here? cast yer vote !!!

    Im 55 end of august.

    I operated mainframe computers for 14 years betwixt 71 and 85 when I saw the writing on the wall in 82 or so with the advent of some gadget named 'XT'. (where's the tape drive and da card reader ??? LOL !!!)

    the mamouth storage capacity of your avg hard drive and the xfer speed of coax and dsl etc, have multiplied the individual's power to access info 100,000 fold.

    the trick is *knowing how to use the tools*.

    and THIS is where the likes of our dear tolerant and well organized Kate come in.

    you aint seen nuthin yet !!!

    Posted by: Robert J BA BSc at July 11, 2006 10:54 PM

    Claiming that the CBC is the 'glue that holds the country together' is an insult to elderly horses everywhere.

    Posted by: Brian M. at July 11, 2006 11:06 PM

    A popular blogsite can sometimes take a maddeningly long time to post one*s comment.

    This same malady occurs at Captains Quarters and AngryIn The Great White North among others.

    It is a price of Blogosphereic success.

    Just hit POST once and then go for a coffee. Your comment will be there when you return, and without duplicates. Now if only I could always follow my own advice.
    ===============

    Finally, I just checked the ratings; CTV, Global, and the CBC combined have less than 3 million viewers for their national newscasts combined. That means 90% of Canadians ignore them.
    Posted by: KevinB at July 11, 2006 03:23 PM
    ==============

    90% of Canadians are watching ET, CSI, or skin flics on A&E and then Mansbridge. No wonder it takes $Billions in documented fraud before the Canadian voter smells a rat!

    Freedom as we know it in our democracy and even on the web may be a magical moment that we could all lose forever.

    Why do schools not teach all our students what a new and magic thing this freedom is and that we all have to get behind protecting it.

    The government wants to count noses to see how much tax is not being collected so nose counting is mandatory by law.

    Voting could be mandated too. It may encourage a few more voters to get a basic idea of what is really at stake. TG

    Posted by: TG at July 11, 2006 11:23 PM

    I see a factor missing in this discussion. Males, especially the young ones, are abandoning the MSM faster than females.

    I stopped reading the London Free-Press due to their anti-male attitude. I now read the National-Post, which is much fairer.

    A big part of the popularity of the blogs is the removal of the "woman stabs her husband, so HE is at fault and should be punished" concepts which drive most of the MSM.

    There is a place for the newspaper in today's Canada. That newspaper, if it is to succeed, must throw aside the victim-of-the-day attitudes and must destroy the idea that if all adults create a problem, only the males have any responsibility for that problem.

    We could also go into health reportage, which is too heavily skewed towards the female. There are other gender-skewed issues as well. These all need to be fixed.

    Posted by: jw at July 12, 2006 5:34 AM

    So um kate when are you interviewing this Volpe dude?

    Jw thats too true

    Remember when Loreena Bobbit cut her husbands dick off it was funny to the MSM's now if I cut my wives boobs off would they joke?

    Fairness they don't know the meaning of the word.

    Posted by: DrWright at July 12, 2006 7:50 AM

    As mentioned previously on a previous thread, the MSM Death Watch orgy is underway.

    MSM Death Watch: Patriotism as Pornography/Voyeurism.

    Arafat said: "Suicide Bombers? What Suicide Bombers?"

    The MSM says: "Ethics? What ethics?" ...

    Death of a Soldier

    Lorrie Goldstein
    Excerpt:

    "Please respect my family's request for privacy during our time of grief."

    Look at the last line. Will we in the media do that? We, who fought so hard for the right to attend repatriation ceremonies of the remains of fallen soldiers? Word yesterday was that media will be allowed to take pictures of the return of Boneca's coffin, presumably with the consent of his parents, but not interview them. But that's at a military base where access is controlled. What happens when Boneca's parents go home for their son's funeral, now that they've been unwittingly thrown into a huge controversy?

    Will we be true to our word then?

    Finally, there are larger issues here. Do young people signing up for our military today fully understand what the changed role of our armed forces from being "peacekeepers" to peacemakers means for them? Will we in the media, wherever we stand on Afghanistan, examine these issues in a way that respects our fallen soldiers and all who serve?

    I hope so. But I wouldn't count on it." ...-

    http://www.paulding.net/bin/url.cgi/13341.13

    Posted by: maz2 at July 12, 2006 7:59 AM

    Sample the vile, evil, back-stabbing poison from the snake; the Globe and Mail and Wente.

    The snake has poison in its open mouth.

    The Globe/MSM has poison in its pen.

    Down with Wente and the MSM/Globe and Mail. ...-

    MARGARET WENTE

    The 17th Canadian killed in Afghanistan didn't fit the heroic script we love when our soldiers fall in battle. Corporal Anthony Boneca was not at all happy to be fighting. In fact, he hated it. "He was misled," his girlfriend's father told the Toronto Star. "He was very mad about it."

    Cpl. Boneca, who was on his second tour in Afghanistan, was a reservist. He never expected to find himself in a blistering hellhole, short of rations, being shot at by bad guys. His friends back home aren't playing by the script, either. Declared one: "It's not our fight." ...-
    voy forums

    Posted by: maz2 at July 12, 2006 9:07 AM

    "Cpl. Boneca, who was on his second tour in Afghanistan, was a reservist."

    That line my dear friends says it all. Unless his unit was called up, Cpl Boneca volunteered not once but twice to go over there and serve his country. To claim (by hearsay) that he didn't expect to find himself in a blistering hellhole and being shot at by bad guys is certainly a cheap shot at someone who cannot respond. ol' Marg Wente can be compared to a horse's patoot but I'm afraid I'd insult members of the equine persuasion.

    My condolances to the Cpl's family.

    Posted by: texas canuck at July 12, 2006 11:16 AM

    One ringy-dingy, two ringy-dingies*, Hi Im Emily, and Im hear to helpya...-


    Hot rumor: Bell Globemedia to takeover CHUM
    Channel Canada - 37 minutes ago
    CHUM Ltd. is to be part of Bell Globemedia according to a online report on The Globe and Mail (which is owned by Bell Globemedia)
    google news
    (*H/T Lily)

    Posted by: maz2 at July 12, 2006 2:08 PM

    My condololances to the Boneca family.

    maz2,

    What is your motivation? For a person that has so much contempt for the MSM you spend a lot of time consuming their drivel.

    It's almost like that albino Catholic monk in the da Vinci code that kept beating himself.

    Posted by: David Brown at July 12, 2006 3:21 PM

    David Brown, Maz2 often makes me aware of something I had no idea of. It*s up to me to judge what is solid or otherwise.

    You David Brown, have contibuted nothing so far that I can recall. Not to be harsh, just reminding you to contribute and thus be appreciated. TG

    Posted by: TG at July 14, 2006 11:04 AM
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