The stupid prick in the picture looks like he needs a good caning to help him sober up.

Surprised they didn't blame Bush or the "evil" Americans on this 'youts' disgusting behaviour.

They, the idiots, should be made to clean the monument - when they sober up.

I thought public urination was against the law?
Was the last time I lived in Ontario.
I'm becoming so jaded I expect this guy to file a human rights abuse claim.... sigh.

Would the war dead be resurrected; they would be showing the 'pissants' the pointy end of a bayonet or a bullet creasing their cranium.

Given the pissants have no self-respect; they only serve to disgrace themselves.

You show your thankfulness to those who die on behalf of their country, defending its freedoms, by pissing on their graves!?! All the while you have troops in the field, taking the occasional bullet, IED, or RPG in Afghanistan.

I'm glad these bastions of moral genius have got their priorities all worked out. Philistines one and all. Their bladders seem to be functioning, but the space between their ears indicates a profound vacuum.

This is utterly disgusting but not unexpected. After 13 years of decimating and denigrating the Military why should we expect anything else?
Sadly this will not be treated as a crime--but can you imagine what would have happened to him if he had pulled the same stunt at a Holacaust memorial or a Mosque? Only in Canada would this despicable person get away with this. After all, these soldiers fought and died for the freedom this ignoramus pi**es on.
I thought this was against the law--no matter the target--they have his picture--why is he still free?????

Draft the bastards and send em to Afghanistan.

I'm all for arresting or "otherwise dealing with" these yahoos...

This guy is just lucky he wasn't photographed urinating on a mosque.

No Rick, our soldiers would never urinate on any war memorial, these scumbags wouldn't ever qualify for the professionalism that our forces display.

I say send them to Saudi Arabia for a summer vacation give them a taste of 'reality' that no tv show would dare produce.

I say sick that Prime Minister of yours they call what? Captain Canada. Yeah, him.

He'll tell these punks off.

Things like this are enough to make me rather misty-eyed and nostalgic for the days of public branding and floggings in the town square.

Post all the faces of the young men everywhere, on the front pages of all the national newspapers, on TV, online, and rewards for anyone who can identify them.

Then lock the jerks up for a week or two, and sign them up for "sensitivity training" with a couple of veterans for their parole.

I'd like to see the PMO step up to the plate on this one with funding for guard staff ASAP.

Rick said: "send em to Afghanistan"

Trouble is these hooligans can't find their brains, can barely hold or find their members, and certainly couldn't aim a rifle.

If you gave them a gun they might just shoot themselves, earning themselves instead of a medal of distinction a Darwin Award instead.

This would be genetic natural self selection.

An Utter Disgracefull & Disrespectfull Act:
Our countries continous lack of respect for those who served & those that gave the ultimate sacrifice goes right to our lack of education in how the men & women have served & still serve their country. Iam a firm believer that this education must start at the top & that is we should be reconizing the 11thday of the 11thmonth as a national day of mourning & NO STORES OPEN.(currently only a few provinces) Why is it that only government workers & some industry where as it was negotiated in the contract that it is a day off? I attend our local ceremony every year(I take it as a day off my holiday's) & i watch every year the numbers of vets diminishing & the crowds are also diminishing.
If this direspectfull hooligan was ever cought he would only get a slap on the wrist anyways thanks to the liberals hug a thug theories.
I can only hope since the recent actions of PM Harper right from restoring the proper proticol of the flag to the spending announcements that we finaly have a PM that will change Canadians veiws of past & present Veteran's.

Josef in Am. the Captain Canada Pm was the guy we just got rid of They also called him Mr.Dithers, the new PM is Mr.Decisive, gets things done.

Settle down. There is no indication that this was deliberately done in order to show disrespect. The downtown is completely choked during C-Day. There's literally no place to go, in both senses of the word. It was some drunken yahoos looking for a place to pee, not people making political statements. Post Port-O-Potties, not police officers. Problem solved.

Why do they watch the fireworks if they don't care about Canada? How could Canadians put on fireworks if it weren't for the defense of Canada up until now?

Do they think once-a-year fireworks can take the place of all-year-every-year standing-on-guard firepower? If so, they have no idea how quickly they would be living bleak grey lives under a totalitarian state with no fireworks at all.

Maybe we should cancel fireworks until they can sober up and show some respect.

Kate,

you are letting your feelings for the left swap over a 63-year old retired major of the Dental Corps who took digital pictures instead of wading into a bunch of drunken yahoos and straightening them out with "closed fists."

He could have done so and have gone out in a blaze of glory. But putting this picture on front pages was a far more effective way of solving this problem once and for all.

Do blame the left if you must, but change the "Today they take digital photos" part of your post.

I sincerely doubt that these guys are leftists. They're drunken idiots. And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better. It's sad and I don't condone urinating on the monument.

Dr. Dawg. Your comment and solution does not suprise me. It is always esier to place the blame anywhere but on the asshole who does the crime.

I am not surprised,with all the emotional responses,no one has bothered to mention the real cause...rampant alcohol use by our youth.If these people were f*cked up on weed,ecstacy or cocaine instead,you'd be screeming about the evils of drugs.But no,we accept the untold suffering and carnage created by alcohol abuse,after all,we've been told it is acceptable,it is even advertised in our society.
Where are the anti-drug zealots when this drug DAILY raises it's ugly head? Politically correct hypocrates....you don't see sober youths pissing on our memorials.

A truly sad display but does it really surprise anyone? From pierre the pig's values to pre Harper does that type of behavior really surprise you? Only recently have I started to spell Country with an o. Hopefully Harper will keep my spelling on track and give us all back a country and a country with values that can be respected.

Well, seeing as how we can't draft them and send them into a war zone, I think the least we can do is beat them to a pulp and "relieve" ourselves on their person!!
What have we got to look forward to or how can we take solace in knowing that these punks will be the leaders of tomorrow?!
Nothing to do and all day to do it in makes for a rotted, twisted mind. The likes of which have been demonstrated by these irresponsible jerks !
A true shame and a direct reflection of how they were raised !

Booze or drug abuse is no justifcation for this kind of action. Why do people continuley to try to deflect the blame away from these clowns.

so if the police can't find the manpower to protect this natinal monument on "party days" why don't we sue the Grens & the GGFg troops who are in Ottawa all summer'"standing guard" over at the GG's house.

Put a couple of platoons around the monument, put up some simpek fencingh and light the place up . . . then asshats like the one in the photo could be "educated" if they chose to desecrate such a national monument.

Wouldn't cost a penney . . . no overtime for soldiers and the fencing lights are common military stores.

Someone in Ottawa should ID that moron so we can get his name and address published. Maybe he'd think twice if he found himslef being honored as the national dildo of the year.

I got a feeling this story is far from over.

somebody is going to make some phone calls and act behind the scenes. unbelieveable disrespect.

and the social engineering leftists excuse it all with the great mantra 'they wuz drunks at the times sose they arentsk responsibles for dere actshuns'

RobC,nice,typically emotional rah,rah post.NOBODY is saying they should NOT be held accountable,I just pointed out the blatant hypocrasy of our current drug culture and the role it played here!
Please,get your head out of the sand and THINK before you type!Alcohol abuse by our youth is indeed rampant,and causes far more damage and heartbreak in our society than wet monuments.Or are you the only Canadian left who has not had their life'touched'by a drunken driver?

Maybe you could consider some steps to keep these things from occurring in the first place,instead of pointlessly demanding blood after the fact,when you know damn well this society will NOT mete out adequate justice...

There is no exuse for public drunkeness, and never mind if there are no places to go have a leak, then either find a place or piss your damm pants it is still an act of disrespect to desicreat any memorial site.

Canandian Observer> As a recovering alcoholic I don't need your "holier than thou" bullshit about how it affects everyone. Alcoholism is not an illness it is a weakness.Been there done that. I am still accepting the concequences of my stupidity.

This is the first time I have really looked at the comments on this site. I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence. Who are you people??

This is the first time I have really looked at the comments on this site. I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence. Who are you people??

We are the pissed off patiots who are sick of what the left has done to denigrate our society.

In short, we are your antithesis leftie!

A nauseating sense of entitlement has become entrenched in modern society. Just as these hooligans care nothing for the sacrifice of the servicemen whose lives protected their freedom, most beneficiaries of the welfare state care nothing for the financial burden imposed on taxpayers to support them. Those who decry subsidy of sloth, ignorance, and depravity are lambasted as greedy racist haters.

In short, we are your antithesis leftie!

Well, without getting all binary about it, I suppose you're right. I for one want to prevent crime; others here simply want to punish it. Left versus Right sensibilities, in a nutshell.

RobC,I see with your personal experience,you should be the first to agree with the hypocracy of alcohol being readily available to our youth.
And,sorry,but being an alcoholic does not give YOU the'holier than thou'right to talk as if you are the ONLY one with a valid opinion on the evils of alcohol in our society.
Sincerely,I wish you the best and hope you ultimately prevail over your'weakness'!

The outrage is more than justified over this.

The leftie response is typically lame or loopy - 'big deal', 'so what', 'where else were the drunks supposed to 'relieve' themselves, boo hoo'.

The police response was also typical - 'what could we do?', 'crowd too big to handle', 'no can do'. In other words, useless.

Next time they should rope the memorial off as a 'keep out' zone and post a military contingent nearby to 'enforce' it.

DR.D: You want to prevent these acts ans i take it from what you have posted you live in the Ottawa area. So instead of talking, then walk the talk & support the groups that have been asking for several years for guards to be posted. The R.C.Legion has been asking for guards to be posted for several years now & we also state that it should not even be neccessary, and they also noted that hooligans had been observed last year pouring beer all over the Memorial. Acts of hooliganism, vandalism, desicretion or whatever should not be slugded off, this is a national Memorial site.
So therefor get off the horse if you want to prevent these actions in further & do something about it.

Dawg: "I for one want to prevent crime; others here simply want to punish it."

You're being sanctimonius as well as obtuse. It isn't either/or - it's both. We all want to prevent crime. When that fails crime should be punished. This was a crime.

Leftist said:
"I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence. Who are you people??"

Frankly I found your referece to Canadians fighting and dying for the "American Empire" quite nasty. You also mentioned fighting and dying for the "British Empire". That's nasty too.

For "American Empire"? NO. Against, global expansionary islamofascism.
For "British Empire"? NO. Against, global expansionary naziism, then global expansionary communism.

Who are YOU, and why are YOU now figurately pissing on the graves of dead soldiers?

Your blog de plume is "Leftist". You mustn't lecture about "nastiness and threats of violence". The left caused about 100,000,000 deaths in the 20th century seeking utopia -- breaking eggs while making no omeletes.

I would describe your post as moral narcissism.

Crime is prevented in nearly all cases where the price is greater than the benefit of the crime.

crime and punishment, crime and punishment
goes together like a horse hand carriagement
you can't have one with out the other.

Dawg would prefer we assign a social worker to each offender to shadow them like a guardian angel who can try to reason for them at each potential offence. This is called a job-creation opportunity in Ottawa.

New York City got cleaned up and made to be a citizen friendly, safe, crime-free city by throwing all offenders in jail for a long stretch. It worked and everyone is happy except the offenders.

However, this is unacceptable on the Canadian left because they 'feel' that the offenders should be happy too.

Such caring ...

"All things in moderation" No I don't have the ONLY valid opinion I have MY opinion. In Calgary, the Center Street Bridge is available for jumpers but one would think that a responsible decision for a person would be not to use it for that purpose. Availablility, or unavailibility has nothing to do with accepting responsibility for ones personal choices or actions.

There is no record of them pissing on monuments of any sort when the Lieberals were in power. Now that the Conservatives are in...well the evidence is that...apparently anything goes.

Dr Dawg,do not despair,I for one noticed you at least offered a plausible partial solution...people here today seem mainly to want to vent and demand someone's head(of course,the little pr*cks should be punished),but it is all hot air with our current(lack of)justice system.
You saw the reaction I got when I tried to expand the boundaries of the discussion...
If this is how a cross section of conservatives honestly feel about a Canada wide problem,well,now I'm depressed because it has been left to us(by liberalism)to solve this degeneration of responsibility in our society.

JR,I applaud you also for offering some plausible solutions,however,do we post guards across Canada to keep drunken youths from dessicrating our churches,monuments,graves,etc.?
I submit we MUST be more pro-active in instilling MORALS in our youth and make at least SOME effort to make alcohol difficult for them to get.
Again,alcohol is NOT an excuse for these little sh*ts actions,but it is certainly a MAJOR catalyst.

The utter lack of respect and empathy for others combined with alcohol abuse are what we should be working on solutions for today...

Steve,

By that logic, you are blaming Stephen Harper for the pissing??

That is perfect Lib-logic

CO, I certainly agree that more respect and better behaviour need to be instilled in our youth. But that's a long term project and given that the 'progressives' have taken over most of the school system I don't hold out much hope for its success - at least any time soon. Meanwhile.....

John
Just pointing out the obvious. Pissing was never a problem...until now. Probably just a coincidence. You know, Harper's in power, people start pissing on monuments. Just a coincidence. Now if it were Lieberals in power we would know the cause.

steved--no one had to piss on a Monument to our soldiers while the Liberals were in power--the Liberals did that for them!
As for sending this creep to Afghanistan--I suggest instead that we register all penises in Canada--should only cost about $2M--then we wouldn't need pictures of their faces to see who did it--we would have them by the --you know--if only one monument is saved it would be worth it!

"Lest we forget!"

It seems that the left have forgotten! Reading this thread as well as some history books we see the left were against Hitler's expansionism then and are against our counter-attack on the terrorist plots that surround us now. In my personal opinion they are more going to war than thet are of becoming Nazi's or having their religion changed at the barrel of a gun. They should thank their lucky stars there are Conservatives around that will save their sorry asses and allow them to continue to preach their fear of war(dying)!

"I sincerely doubt that these guys are leftists. They're drunken idiots. And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better. It's sad and I don't condone urinating on the monument."

This is an example of one that is afraid to die for his rights or the rights of his pathetic (future) family. We can only hope that this guys kids rebel against anything he stands for and they proudly state to their father "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it!"

I sometimes wonder if these twits ever look up what happened to those in the former U.S.S.R. and the People's Republic of China when they spoke out of turn or rebelled against the state.

steve d.

The drunken sots were how old? About 18? By your logic we should note that they learned most of their manners under a Liberal regime. Just a coincidence? You be the judge.

JR,..aha!..someone gets it!
We need to somehow,start cleaning this'moral mess'ASAP!In the meantime,how about we lobby for tougher sentences(based on ALREADY existing laws)from our'pussified'judges?
Even a 5 yr old will behave when they understand boundaries and swift consequences.
Also,we need to better control access to booze by our youth,I would be open to any constructive ideas as we have already dug ourselves a deep hole with this drug...

Oh,and John,don't worry about trolls,ET will be along any minute to save the day!

Sorry my post should have read:

"Reading this thread as well as some history books we see the left were against our dealing with Hitler's expansionism then and are against our counter-attack on the terrorist plots that surround us now."

Interesting.

I see no outrage over the rape and murder of a 15-year old Iraqi girl and her family (note: there is a link to the 2 US soldiers abducted and mutilated recently which the vacuous blog author has also conveniently missed) by US soldiers, but lot of chest thumping vituperation over the meaningless actions of a bunch of drunks (hint: drunks do stupid things including killing people while driving intoxicated; urinating on a memorial is just about the most harmless thing they could have done).

Fascinating what a shrivelled heart and a constricted sense of fairness will or will not produce.

This is the first time I have really looked at the comments on this site. I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence. Who are you people??

Who are you, to ask?

Canadian Observer said:
If this is how a cross section of conservatives honestly feel about a Canada wide problem,well,now I'm depressed because it has been left to us(by liberalism)to solve this degeneration of responsibility in our society.

This my good man/woman is a veritable howler.

Be clear, this kind of behaviour is the perfectly predictable result of decades of liberalism which tried to substitute self esteem on a platter for high expectations and self discipline.

The very meat and potatoes of contemporary liberalism is personal irresponsibility. All pathology is excused by trumped up causes beyond the ken and control of individual human beings.

Guilliani did not bring about that truly epic reduction in the NYC crime rate by messages of sweetness and light on billboards. He did it via the now famous "broken window" method. Look after the smaller stuff, and the big stuff will follow. Think of the turnstile jumpers and the taxi horns which have been silenced.

Read Dr Dawg (is he a psychologist?) and note his distaste for punishment. The threat of police power is the only thing that maintains that very thin veneer called civilization.

Nice diversion anon,I don't see you crying over the dozens of Iraqi men,women and children TERRORISTS kill EVERY week.HYPOCRATE!
BTW,if these kids pissed on Trudeau's grave,you'd probably be screaming bloody murder yourself!Thus,the consequences of having a shrivelled brain and NO sense of fairness...

The threat of police power is the only thing that maintains that very thin veneer called civilization.

Err...calling all anti-statists to the board! Pronto!

They may have learned their manners under the Liberals but they never felt so free to express themselves as they do under Harper. He should feel proud.

Right Mind

Learn your history. The Right was very comfortable with Hilter in the 30's. It was up to the Left to go to Spain and try to stop Fascism there before it could grow into the cancer it became. Where were the Right?
When the battles are for real, genuine causes the Left usually respond first.

Were the authorities to fence off the monument to prevent a urinary repeat, the lefties would scream that the Harper government is preventing Canadians from honoring their war dead by forcibly restricting access.........

steve.d: And here I thought the left went to Spain to promote Communism and ensure it would grow into the cancer it became...

Canadian Observer scratches: "Nice diversion anon,I don't see you crying over the dozens of Iraqi men,women and children TERRORISTS kill EVERY week.HYPOCRATE!"

First, it is spelled "hypocrite". If you are really mad, try "hyppocrite".

Second, US soldiers are there to protect the innocent from the terrorists. Most of them do just that - when some don't, you would think a prolific blog like this one would take a few minutes to write about it. Terrorists are supposed to kill innocent civilians - there is nothing newsworthy when that happens.

Understand the difference?

Change your alias to Stupid Observer. That way, you will not dishonor Canada.

MND,I recommend you reread my posts(and your chosen quote),as I believe in your haste to attack someone,you completely f*cked up my message..
Can I not even question my fellow conservatives attitudes without being labelled a laughable leftie?You call this free speech?
You made the exact same argument I did,except I offered a LONG TERM solution alongside the desparate need for clear and consistent punishment for crimes!I was ALSO blaming the libs for the mess they have left us cons to solve...I await your apology....

LEFT -RIGHT. For Chrissake, steve d., drop the left-right fantasy will you. Fascism and Communism are two forms of socialism, the former right socialism (state control) the latter left socialism (state ownership). The leftist idealist dupes who went off to save communism from fascism simply didn't yet know what communism was, which was: THE SAME THING, with only superficial differences.

Let's not chase our tails on this anymore, please! You don't understand this stuff, trust me.

anon,I apologize for making you upset,of course you are 100% right and I am stupid...will tend to changing my handle immediately!...if I can figure out how...

Dam, and i thot that myself and my pals were pretty racy in our younger days!
The worst we ever did was have contests to see who could make the highest mark on hydro poles.
Apologies (very belated) to Ontario Hydro.

Leftist: "I sincerely doubt that these guys are leftists. They're drunken idiots. And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better. It's sad and I don't condone urinating on the monument."

Right Mind: This is an example of one that is afraid to die for his rights or the rights of his pathetic (future) family. We can only hope that this guys kids rebel against anything he stands for and they proudly state to their father "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it!"

Well I won't comment on your assumptions about my gender and family situation but why do you assume that there is nothing I would die for? It seems that I wouldn't die for the things you think people should die for. That doesn't mean there is nothing I would die for. Elementary Logic.

Right Mind: I sometimes wonder if these twits ever look up what happened to those in the former U.S.S.R. and the People's Republic of China when they spoke out of turn or rebelled against the state.

I've read a good deal of history and I continue to read a good deal of history and I'm not sure what your point is here since regimes of all political stripes have suppressed dissent. But I am somewhat alarmed by what people on this board apparently would like to do to people who say or do things they don't like.

Why all these personal insults rather than discussion of the issues?

What do Hitler, Facist, communist, spain, Iraq left vs right, Pm Harper, Trudeau, liberal's, Conservatives, Have to do with Pissing On A National Memorial to the Unknown Soldier, Gawd the only one you people have'nt mentioned is the ndp. Stick to the subject the Article has now made National News. Canadian's are outraged regardless if you are left or right it's a GD Disgrace!!!

Canadian Observer: Well, as requested, I re-read your posts. I notice you admit a need for punishment but you also cite Dr Dawg's partial solution vis a vis the provision of more public potties. Wonder what Dawg thinks is the cause of the massive amounts of public graffiti? A lack of paint and paper? Heh, maybe we should erect blank billboards and boxes of spray paint in each city block!

I probably got your confusing message a bit garbled but I also thought you went off on a tangent about the "hypocrisy" vs a vis alcohol and drugs in our society, which is a valid observation, but not germane to the issue at hand which is: people are allowed to get away with stuff because we don't punish (Dr Dawg who you praised didn't like punitive measures, as you recall).

And your sentimental touch about liberalism having to save the day which it ruined in the first place, well, let's just say we seem to be operating off radically different impressions of what "liberalism" is.

So as to your request for an apology:
I'm sorry you seem confused.

PM disgusted by man urinating on war memorial

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/07/03/1666201-cp.html

I cannot believe the nerve of the left-wing nut-cases who would dare use this as an opportunity to try and insult the military or the intelligence of those who fought in Canada's wars. It is clear that you have absolutely no ties to the military in your family backgrounds and no sense of what the men in those days signed up for and why.

Leftist: 'desparately needed jobs, huh.' You obviously have the revisionist history view. For your information, young men at the outset of both WWI and WWII ALL saw themselves as reservists. In those days, people EXPECTED that, from time to time, they would have to aacrifice for their freedoms. Overwhelmingly, they willing LEFT their jobs to VOLUNTEER. Only insulated morons such as yourself think that true liberty and protection of your way of life can be left to "negotiators."

And Steve...I will violate the rule about not feeding trolls long enough to say "the right was comfortable with Hitler"??? Chamberlain, Stalin, Roosevelt, and King. Figure out where each of them were on the political spectrum of their countries and then please shut the f**k up.

I would have expected better from all Canadians on this one. No matter what your political slant, the simple fact is that we will never see the likes of those who gave their lives out of a true sense of duty. I don't give a flying you-know-what about what you people (who have no idea what real "sacrifice" means) want to say about that sense of duty in your own time...it doesn't matter...people like our war dead MUST be respected - period.

No qualifications about what you think of history. No interjecting your little views about how the murderous bastards who were put down in those wars were misunderstood. Just shut-up and accept the fact that the reason you are allowed to have your cushy society today comes from those people who were a hell of a lot braver than you or I will ever be.

These punks who desecrated this memorial have committed an act that is the equivalent of slapping the country in the face. There was a time where they would have been branded traitors. They don't deserve any better treatment today. Anyone who disagrees with this simple point is WRONG. It's not an opinion...it's fact.

Well said Bryceman:
I remember very clearly about 30yrs ago walking home from a highschool party & yes i was pissed. I stopped at the local CP rail yard & took one on the office wall. Well guess what I got caught by the boys in blue, they took me in, put me in the drunk tank, called my dad, he said leave him there till he sober's up, teach him a lesson. When i sobered up they called for him to pick me up, the punishment was better in the drunk tank then when i got home & he hadn't even told my Mother what i had done & i do not know to this day if he ever did, lesson was learned. That was as i said over 30yrs ago I was taught to respect other peoples property by men that i came to have a great deal of respect for.
I wish i could have thanked my dad, I never did but deep down I think he knew.

By the way leftist:

Do you even know how your hero Tommy Douglas got started in politics? I bet you think it was to give you medicare.

But if you had brain one in that huge planetoid on your shoulders, you would know that he first became publicly active (along with his buddy - can't remember his name right now) because they saw thousands of WWI veterans RETURNING HOME TO FIND THAT THE JOBS THEY LEFT TO GO TO WAR WERE NO LONGER THERE.

He believed that their country owed them better. Hence his slant towards it being up to government to take care of people.

You didn't know that of course. You're not capable of properly studying the history of the views behind either your political opponents or your political friends.

I don't think that this is a left vs. right issue. It's more about the growing attitude of "ME,ME, ME, NOBODY MATTERS BUT ME!!" Adults riding their bikes on sidewalks and through pedestrians; people walking their dog without a leash where this is prohibited, or letting their dog crap in playgrounds; drivers who don't allow others to merge into their lane or conversely drivers who race past a lineup of stopped cars and then try to force their way in; etc.

Police seem to never be around when these things happen, but they're often found waiting to give you a ticket for doing 55 in a 50 or some similar thing, where there is no potential for public harm but a ticket can be quickly and easily written to meet the monthly quota.

It's time to start teaching manners and etiquette, and definitely enforcing the law less haphazardly.

No qualifications about what you think of history. No interjecting your little views about how the murderous bastards who were put down in those wars were misunderstood. Just shut-up and accept the fact that the reason you are allowed to have your cushy society today comes from those people who were a hell of a lot braver than you or I will ever be.

These punks who desecrated this memorial have committed an act that is the equivalent of slapping the country in the face. There was a time where they would have been branded traitors. They don't deserve any better treatment today. Anyone who disagrees with this simple point is WRONG. It's not an opinion...it's fact.

bryceman, i think most people would agree that pissing on the memorial is wrong. however, there will be different opinions on how severe the punishment should be. the commentators at sda would surely miss those with contrary opinions, aka "trolls". all that pent-up self-righteousness could be dangerous.

Bryceman:By the way leftist:

Bryceman: Do you even know how your hero Tommy Douglas got started in politics? I bet you think it was to give you medicare. But if you had brain one in that huge planetoid on your shoulders .... You didn't know that of course. You're not capable of properly studying the history of the views behind either your political opponents or your political friends.

Well I like and respect Tommy Douglas but I wouldn't call him my hero and I wouldn't say that I agreed with him politically. This really isn't relevant at all and neither are the personal insults. But I have to go now :-)

MND,the point(and only point)I was making with Dawg,be he a leftie or not,was that he was the FIRST and ONLY poster(to that point)to offer a possible solution instead of just bitching about it like all the regulars here were doing.AND I sure as hell never"praised"him!

Next,I"admit"a need for punishment?What the hell does that little bit of sarcasm mean?To me it proves you do not properly read other's posts and refuse to admit when you are proven to be wrong!I made my views on a need for proper justice for these and other punks CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY!

Now,I NEVER claimed liberalism would save the day,actually I already TOLD you I believe the exact opposite!THEN,I repeated clearly in my next post that us cons were the poor souls left to clean this bloody mess up!But again,you ignore this CLEAR message and AGAIN accuse me of the opposite!

Finally(your myopic views seem endless),you take me to task for not following your narrow little view of this post.Honestly,you actually accused me of"going off topic"which you considered a"valid observation"but not"germaine to the topic at hand".How is youth's drinking habits not a valid concern at a post about the actions of drunken youths?

I understand MND,only real men can find in themselves the strength to offer a deserved apology...But,I see your only concern is NOT to be found out to be wrong...you'd make a fine leftie...

Grrr... leftist fools.

That is worse than drawing a cartoon of Mohammed. It's worse than pissing on a cartoon of Mohammed.

We know how that would infuriate the Muslims.

Not to incite anything at all; certainly not!...But...

Perhaps, before someone on the left gets, um, harmed, like a cartoonist might, the left should think long and hard that there are many people out there who would feel so incredibly strongly about such intolerably deviant behavior that they might snap and not wait for the judicial wheels to go into motion. They must realize that people from all walks of life do sometimes "lose it" and mete out "citizen justice", despite their better judgement... that's always a danger in any society.

I'm just saying that for their own safety, leftists should learn to consider the possible dire consequences of such provocative actions... as if they could bring consequences of a magnitude similar to those stemming from the publishing of Mohammed cartoons.

If drawing Mohammed is considered by leftists to be deserving of the ultimate reaction, then they should accord the same respect of the National War Memorial.

Just a bit of friendly advice to any foolish leftists like the Calvin impersonators as I really don't want anyone to get hurt.

But I do wish these pissheads would go to prison for at least a while, just so a message could be expressed to society as to what won't be tolerated.

The left seriously needs to actually think, literally for the sake of their own safety!

Desecrating national monuments like the War Memorial should be considered a serious criminal offence. Certainly it's no less serious than desecrating a Mosque? Or a gay bar/bathhouse? That'd make leftists mad, wouldn't it?

Everything one needs to know about the state of the country can be discerned from a simple truth. The police don't have the manpower to stop people from pissing on the National War Memorial. If one hundred Canadian Patriots volunteered to stand guard on this night to prevent desecration of the memorial, the police would come up with twenty officers and tons of video equipment to make sure they could protect those who seem to have a "right" to piss where they choose, and the ability to accumulate evidence to prosecute anyone who might choose to stand up for our country and our history.

leafist said...
Why all these personal insults rather than discussion of the issues?
well lefty you just hit the nail on the head because thats all leftest can do...talk talk talk. action is not your best point.

should read leftist.

spike,...leafist may be more accurate than you think...since most lefties showing up here seem to have the IQ of a plant!(Sorry,I couldn't resist)

Kate said, and I quote, "Mark up another victory for the left." EXCUSE ME - WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE LEFT? HOW DO YOU BLAME THE LEFT FOR SOME OTTAWA IDIOT (Probably a Tory)! SHAME ON YOU KATE FOR MAKING THIS A LEFT / RIGHT THING! YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP - nutbar!!! Sheeeeeesh!!!

davidson:

My rage...pent-up? Not really. I felt it and vented it as soon as I saw where the trolls were trying to go with the conversation. Self-righteous?...you bet.

I have no patience for people who say, "What those guys did was wrong but..." and then try to get into an argument about the merits behind political leaders. When they do that, they are trying to lessen the sacrifice of the men those monuments honor.

It's like saying, "I don't want to take anything away from Person X, BUT [then go on to do exactly that]".

If people want to discuss the principles behind the World Wars...whether the underlying motives were right or wrong...whether the leaders of the participating countries were good or bad. I don't have a problem with that in its proper context.

But these men...the men who actually died for what they so strongly believed in deserve the highest regard - no matter what. If tomorrow, they uncovered incontrovertible evidence that both world wars started because someone lost a game of paper-rock-scissors...that would make the motives behind them silly. But, it would not reduce the honor that is due to the dead soldiers one little bit.

My rage is directed at those who were basically trying to say that these punks should not be looked on so badly because soldiers only signed up because they couldn't find better jobs and so on.

You are right. People will have different views on appropriate punishments. But I will not have these trolls try to tell me that the crime is lessened because the guys fighting them were stupid or desparate.

Steve d.

You have it wrong, I'm afraid...

This type of outrageous behavior is the legacy of your friends in the Liberal Party, who brought in the "Hug a Thug" principles into our criminal justice system. Years of coddling and even rewarding bad behavior has brought us to the point where our overall crime rate in Canada is now significantly higher than that in the US. As a result, we can no longer be termed a civil society in many areas.

The knowledge that bad behavior earns little or no consequences is creating crime. Here in Vancouver, thieves regularly steal bronze plaques off war memorials, tombstones and other monuments in order to sell to scrap metal dealers. Two weeks ago they stole two bronze plaques, honouring a murdered RCMP officer, from a pedestrian bridge.

Chretien was looking for his legacy...this is it.

Leftist wrote very early in this thread (and I came directly here without reading the rest of the posts), "And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better."

Perhaps others have chastised you for this gross impertinence and lack of respect for our fighting men and women, now and in the past.

My father, as a very young Canadian, was in the artillery in WW II and saw action in Holland. He joined the army to fight tryanny, not because he was desperate or propagandised. Your ignorance displays a serious lack of understanding and respect.

Leftist, far better the British Empire--Magna Carta and all that--and the American "Empire" (sic) than an Islamic Caliphate. In the latter dispensation, a whipper snapper like you wouldn't hold onto his/her head for long.

Talk about propaganda. Open your eyes and ears and find out what's really happening.

Remember, young (wo)man--no, you can't remember because you never knew--"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men [and women] stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell. You obviously have no clue that it's on the backs of our brave soldiers that you have the freedom to spout nonsense and disrespect without reprisal.

God help us all if the likes of you ever take charge.

And I think you owe an apology to all of Canada's brave soldiers, the quick and the dead. Shame on you.

Canadian Observier: B*L*U*S*H

I've re-read this again, and must confess I did indeed completely misread you. Sorry about that. We're obviously on the same team.

In your sentence:
If this is how a cross section of conservatives honestly feel about a Canada wide problem,well,now I'm depressed because it has been left to us(by liberalism)to solve this degeneration of responsibility in our society

I misread the parenthetical phrase "by liberalism" to read "left to liberalism to solve ...".

I'm in the middle of Coulter's "Godless" so the word "liberalism" has made me a bit twitchy. Promise to read you much more carefully in the future. Odd, I do remember thinking you were on the right team which should have alerted me to read more carefully.

Leftdog is desperately attempting to claim that desecration of the War Memorial isn't a leftist thing.

But... to oppose all war without exception is a patented dogma of the left. Therefore, desecrating the National War Memorial is a leftist thing.

And to whip one's nozzle out in public and exrete urine upon the War Memorial in front of war veterans... on Canada Day?! Would Leftdog like to make a case for such behavior being done by conservatives, despite the fact that it would be the exact opposite of anything a conservative would ever do, knowing the essence of conservatism?

Kate's not the only one to understand it to be a leftist action. I do, too. Only an imbecile leftist would deny that it has nothing to do with their dogmatic ideologies, namely to be anti-war, to expose their gonads in public (like in "pride" parades), and to piss anywhere they so desire as if it's an inalienable natural human right. No genuine conservative would do such a thing.

Honestly, I'm not sure where I sit on this discussion about the action being a left/right thing. Personally, I think that the perpetrators are simple idiots who don't have the brain power to fathom what they are doing because they too have no sense of history or the significance of such memorials.

Of course, being anti-war in all cases is a left thing. Being raised under the idea that you can do such things and not worry about consequences is a left thing. The total absence of youth being educated on what those memorials actually stand for is a left thing. And, of course, indifference to your elders is a left thing.

I just think that these punks' actions are not the actual disease (liberalism)...just a symptom of it.

Just waded through most of this thread,and one thing that is crystal clear is this;is anyone
in this country ACCOUNTABLE...for any thing,personally anymore? It`s the Liberals fault
for being such a bunch of weak kneed pansies when it comes to law and order(and they f#$@&&&ing well are),it`s the Conservatives fault for not being tough enough...blah blah freak`in blah.how about this ...the A-hole who
did this IS PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for his actions and should be held ACCOUNTABLE accordingly.

Dr. Dawg: "Settle down. There is no indication that this was deliberately done in order to show disrespect. The downtown is completely choked during C-Day. There's literally no place to go, in both senses of the word. It was some drunken yahoos looking for a place to pee, not people making political statements. Post Port-O-Potties, not police officers. Problem solved."

Dawg, you are trolling. That is against the rules. What you said there is so assinine it can only be interpreted as an attempt to make people mad at you.

This is the first and last time I'll address you on this thread.

Get a brain and some honor. Otherwise, I just might quit bothering to even read the stupid left-wing crap you write.

To all: behold the leftist claiming that the NWM was the only possible place to take a piss. I'm sure there was something left-wing somewhere they could've pissed on.

Behold the sheer stupidity of the left.

Well, the wingnuts are at it again. stevie duh thinks it is Harper's fault but can't explain the grafitti left last year when his beloved lieberanos were in power. dr puppy figures it is only lack of porta-potties but cannot explain why the dipshit didn't water a bush or lamp post instead of a monument. There were after all plenty of targets of opportunity. And leftie doggie figures if it is an idiot in Ottawa then is probably a tory. Poor leftiest cannot understand the anger being vented at some young punk desicrating a national momument.

Everyone of those listed above are missing the point: Thirteen years of "progressive government" has resulted in a society of me and my entitlements.

As the very first comment suggested, a good caning would be a suitable punishment.

As for a lack of police manpower. Perhaps these public events should be cancelled with a suitable explanation. It might prompt a "rethinking" on the police priorities.

A Rudy G/New York approach should be pursued.

Also, were these people drinking in bars first or in public?

Once again, if the police can't do a better job with these sorts of events, there needs to be a rethinking on how they're handled.

Dr Dawg:
I wrote: The threat of police power is the only thing that maintains that very thin veneer called civilization.

You wrote, oh so cleverly: Err...calling all anti-statists to the board! Pronto!

To clarify any semantic confusion here: when I use the word "statist", I refer to people who give primacy to government solutions over private initiative, and who want the state to DO things it shouldn't be doing.

I have a quite low opinion of humanity in general (the thin veneer of civilisation) and therefore I hold the line well short of anarchy. I DO believe in the state -- but the state doing what it was meant to do, namely, use its delegated monopoly over coercion and violence to RESTRAIN folks who threaten my liberty. Admittedly it's not glamourous, but there it is.

But given the 100,000,000+ killed by states in the 20th century, Canada's decades-long neglect of law and order, and the emasculation of the military, I'm starting to question whether the state can even manage that.

Can't resist: the NWM desecrators must have the natural empathic understanding of the Dawg: Dawgs and leftists: They'll piss on anything that's handy, eh? No wonder Dawg made the brainless comments he did. Apparently leftists have the intelligence and conscience of Dawgs. The leftist fools were simply "marking their territory", I'm sure.

Me No Dhimmi

You have got to own up to what is yours. Conservatism has a far right called Fascism. Period.
That is why the Fascists round up the socialists and kill them. Notice Fascists never round up Conservatives and kill or even jail them. Hmm, I guess that says it all.

Anthropology is fascinating.

There were 3 or 4 punks that urinated on the monument.As in previous years (prior to the Conservative gov't) people have urinated on these sites without any punishment or warning.This was why the Major took the photos,to prove to the Mayor,Premier,and Primeminister(all Liberals previous)that this was a problem.No prior action had been taken by anyone.You would think they could spring for some port-a-pottys with all that tax money they collect but I digress.
I think the debate about "left" and "right" should focus on the crowd of people that CHEERED when this punk peed on the monument.

"I sincerely doubt that these guys are leftists. They're drunken idiots. And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better. It's sad and I don't condone urinating on the monument.

Posted by: Leftist at July 3, 2006 01:20 PM "

---Huh? What an imbecile. He makes no logical explanation for the desecrators not being leftists. He offers no proof that they were drunk. He seems to hold the delusion that the desecrators are actually soldiers/ex-soldiers. Mon Dieu! Prepare the straitjacket and the padded room and alert the biggest orderlies in white pajamas to prepare for an especially hard day's work! Ready the medication, plenty of it!

I'm amazed at the stupidity of the leftists I'm seeing on this thread. I certainly hope that not all leftists are similarly daft! That'd be scary!

Steve D:

Liberalism has a far left called Communism. Period.

That is why the Communists round up the conservatives and kill them. Notice Communists never round up Liberals and kill or jail them. Hmm, I guess that says it all.

Yep, I think we've got simplistic reasoning all figured out.

The pissant who desecrated the National War Memorial ist still meschugge. Are we clear?

But of course zis is faschisten sthinking, nicht war?

I'm amazed at the stupidity of almost everyone on this thread. Why? Because you've all got good points to make, and no body is hearing them, because you're all yelling at each other.

P.S. This is especially for Leftist: I forgot to mention my two grandfathers. They both left good jobs, wives, and seven children between them to fight Nazism. We were lucky: They both came home. I was blessed: I knew and loved them.

You don't know me, Leftist, but your remarks have desecrated the memory of three fine Canadians in my family: my father and my grandfathers. (Actually, make that six, no seven, no eight: My aunt was a WREN, my uncle was in the army. My father-in-law, whom I never met, was in the air force. My great uncle was too: He was killed and never met his son, who was born after his death. Then there was my mother's fiance, a pilot, shot down over Germany. He might have been my dad.)

And YOU dare to say at this site, "And of course most of its [the military] members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better." And, "I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence [sic]. Who are you people??"

We're people you've ungraciously, gratuitously, and deeply insulted, that's who.

The question is, Leftist, who the hell are YOU? (Whoops! That's nasty.)

P.P.S. I agree with CO and all those who say we need to regain authority for what is right and good in this country. However, the Charter--thanks, PET--which enshrined rights and not obligations, has made sure that's not likely to happen any time soon. I'm a teacher: Students'--the worst ones and their entitled parents know all about it--rights trump proper discipline over and over. Administration caves over and over and if they don't, the courts overrule them. It's a dismal situation.

Rudy Guilianni, where are you?

"Conservatism has a far right called Fascism. Period." and "Fascists round up the socialists and kill them". -- steve d.

You mean, like the National Socialist German Workers Party?

Steve D.: "Conservatism has a far right called Fascism. Period."

Dumbass leftist yet again. Fascism was the political ideology of Mussolini in Italy around WWII.

If anyone's fascist, it's the left. Via "political correctness" (that's akin to fascism).

We conservatives are actually the true, original "liberals". The difference is that we're smart enough to understand that the same time all need to have and observe rules and laws designed to keep good order in society, like not pissing on national monuments, for example, not to oppress as the left wants to believe and preach with flared nostrils, jutted chin and spittling maw.

If the left opposes fascism, then why have they such an adoring affinity for fascists like the Islamofascists, like Castro in Cuba, like the Chinese communists, like Ahmadinejad of Iran (the left claims he's a good guy and other stupid crap), etc., etc...

The left is only further proving how stupid they are.

Leftist, I'd like to hear from you.

EBD:

That would be the Nationale SOZIALISTISCHE Deutsche ARBEITERS Partei or NSDAP shortened to Nazi.

It makes lefties go into a fascist rage when you say the NAZIs were really socialists.

Iberia: "I don't think that this is a left vs. right issue. It's more about the growing attitude of "ME,ME, ME, NOBODY MATTERS BUT ME!!"

--- But THAT is a leftist thing. We know that, if we've been watching and thinking.

Liberalism in the raw is exactly about helping oneself to whatever or doing whatever, to hell with everyone else, right?

Whatever the motive of the urinators, they were indubitably leftist, for their actions are anathema to everything conservatives are about. Understand? Oh, I see... leftists don't understand, therefore they don't know what conservatism is about... they believe what their peers, leaders and the MSM tell them without thinking for themselves. Hell, they don't even understand themselves!

I think this post is a perfect opportunity to expose the left, using peeing as an example. I believe it's reasonably on-topic, as we're discussing, in part, the possible causes and motives of the desecration, plus the left comes on and makes astonishingly stupid comments.

Hans

What I said was true. It is history.

What you said has never happened. What you suppose was communism was not. It was totalitarianism or despotism but not communism.
Communism has never been tried. Elements of communism have been tried but only along side elements of totalitarianism, oligarchy, capitalism and despotism.
Fascism was tried several times. Each time the Left was persecuted. Never the Right. Because the Right is where Fascism thrives. It is particularly potent when joined with capitalism as it was with Hitler's particular brand. I know he called it National Socialism and it did have some elements of socialism but the reality was that Hitler hated socialism the unique way Conservatives do.The same is true for the inventor of Fascism Mussolini. In his famous definition of Fascism he states that it is the opposite of socialism.

Theoretically, communism is to the far left in socialism but it is highly unlikely that it would ever be tried. It was merely part of a theory that saw workers as being used and abused by capitalists and communism was offered up as one way to give the worker his dignity back. But then unions came along. But now unions are going. What will the future bring?

Vitruvius et al,
This is not about political idealism. This comes down to who you are, period, end of sentence.
This behaviour can not be condoned(sounds like everyone here agrees.. no?) or explained, or rationalised. The young man in question may not have realised the consequences of his actions. Too bad they were his. Freaking well own them!ie:apologise in public or explain exactly why you desecrated the memorial.

Hmmm...I wonder how big the outcry would be if the headstone of Trudeau...the "Great Mesiah" was urinated on.

Someone I know was arrested for skateboarding on that monument.

That would have been, oh, just after the Libs came into power under Chretien.

I guess things have changed.

Hans Rupprecht: "Notice Communists never round up Liberals and kill or jail them."

Thanks for reminding me of this, Hans, but... actually, communists round up and kill whomever opposes their dogmas, which are actually in opposition to what both conservatives and liberals stand for. The only way for communism to survive is to kill those who aren't onside. For example, communism forbids homosexuality, but liberals favor it, therefore communists kill liberals too. Communism forbids unions, but liberals favor them, therefore communists kill liberals too.

Communism is neither right nor left. It is a specific doctrine involving absolute central command and control, without any human rights/freedoms whatsoever.

Therefore, it is telling about leftist stupidity when the left promotes communism! They know nothing about it! Same for when the left defends Islamofascism.

I cannot believe all the opportunities I see to expose leftist stupidity, all stemming from this desecration .

Thanks, Hans, for providing another opportunity to thump the left.

I have only one Question about the National memorial.

Why don't we have an honor guard 24/7, 265 days a year?

Are we that shallow, or think this such a small thing? We leave the honored dead alone in death. Without the living, by deed show there gratitude?

I believe that having living peers standing on guard would be a great tribute. It not only shows respect for there self sacrifice, but is a warning to those who hate us that we have fought for our civil rights as human beings before & will again till death.

This whole thing would only cost the amount any Party spends on two polls a year, for wages. Perhaps three for the right equipment.

AS for the punk. What do folks expect after Trudeau turned education from learning centers into self esteem camps. This is the logical result. Narcissists in whom nothing is as important as themselves. We all are familiar with this loathsome breed. I am sure. I am just amazed at how many good ones, slip threw the deceitful net.

This is just the symptom of a systematic pogrom against the military for 13 years by Socialist zealots. Using the MSM & education system to instill this kind of contempt. We all now know why . Thank you Sheila Frazer!!

Lets see if we can get our Mps interested.

Wrong monument Greenidiot,Things haven't changed,you Liberals are still ignorant.

Steve d: "When the battles are for real, genuine causes the Left usually respond first."

You have recently made a great deal of noise about your research. Now, assuming that you accept that Communists are of the left, how do you explain the fact that following the signing of the Nazi-Soviet Pact on August 23, 1939,
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/nazsov.htm#II

the Communist Parties in France, the UK and Canada refused to support their countries' war efforts against Germany?
http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/stalin/lectures/NaziSoviet.html

'The foreign reaction to the Nazi-Soviet Pact and the annihilation of Poland was one of shock and rage. The Communist parties abroad, which had no official warning of the Soviet switch, reacted with confusion. On September 6 Thorez and other French Communists joined their regiments, calling for aid to Poland, only to desert at Moscow's behest a few days later. Harry Pollitt, the British Communist leader, wrote a pamphlet unfortunately titled "How to Win the War," and after two weeks both he and his pamphlet had to drop from public gaze. The German Communists in exile made strange noises suggesting that the Allies were worse than Hitler. The general line was that already stated by Stalin in March, that the war was an ''imperialist'' one for the redivision of the world. The Communists said much more about Allied than about Nazi ''culpability,'' and demanded ''peace.'''

As for Canadian Communists:
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/llt/49/01manley.html

'Party members joined the queues at the recruiting stations through September and October, unaware that Toronto had received word from Moscow that "it wasn’t our war any more." Amazingly, it took at least a month from the reception of this news (in late September) for the leadership to declare that the Party was now officially neutral. Buck’s [CPC leader] reminiscences of these events convey, but probably underestimate the leadership’s acute confusion. He claimed that the Polburo issued its neutrality bulletin on 14 October, but Central Committee member Beckie Buhay was plainly unaware of the new line as late as 26 October; the RCMP’s estimate of early November seems more accurate. It was symptomatic of Buck’s authority that the Party announced its new line as a pamphlet, The People Want Peace, under Buck’s name. Writing from the underground, where the party had voluntarily descended (it was not declared illegal until June 1940), Buck admitted that the Party had been mistaken in the "first weeks of the war in creating the illusion that this could be ‘a different kind of war’." Now, thankfully, it was "all the stronger ... in [its] firm adherence to the truth," which was that the war was not a "just war" but "a criminal war ... a predatory imperialist war against the true interests of the masses of people of all countries ... guilt [for which] rests equally upon the shoulders of the imperialists of Berlin, London and Paris." Buck pledged to fight for Canadian independence and the interests of the people against Canada’s ("our own") leaders, who were the enthusiastic stooges of the imperialists. 78 Thus, a period that began with Buck going off to prison seemed likely to end with a similar journey.'

Mark
Ottawa

Frankly, Cat, I think the urinator in question should be shot. There, are we done yet? Did that add anything to the debate? No. How could it? The way people are throwing around words like fascism and communism with only the faintest clue as to their denotation, there is no debate. It's just a yelling match.

You're lucky I don't indulge in that sort of behaviour; most of you would be devastated.

OMG, steve d. going into a three-hanky aria about how "communism has never been tried" while

FUCKING LITTLE PISSANT SCUM HAVE LITERALLY PISSED ON YOUR NATIONAL WAR MEMORIAL!!!!

Kate mentioned "the Left" only because of the lax attitude in this country which sees so many people immediately spring to the defense of these idiots - as we see here. Blame it on Harper (who's been in office for, what, five months?)! Blame it on the nasty conservative Canadian underbelly (which, as we know, *really* rules this country)! Blame it on the evil rigorous Canadian attitude towards drugs (ha! you should take a smell tour of my nice Edmonton neighborhood some summer night)! Blame it on anything but the lousy stupid kids who somewhere somehow learned it was okay to PISS ON A NATIONAL MEMORIAL TO THE WAR DEAD!

Unless you, like, think that's cool and all.

I was actually in the neighbourhood (maybe 50 M from the memorial) around the time when this happened, although I didn't see it.

I can't blame the cops for not being able to stop them. On Elgin st. on Canada day, their are literally thousands of drunks throwing beer bottles, jumping in front of cars, starting fights, etc. so I'm sure they had their hands full. Posting another cop by the memorial might mean one less cop to break up the fights.

As much as it's disappointing that these people did this, but it's hardly suprising. They were drunk idiots. period. More Porta-pottis wouldn't have stopped them; they probably wouldn't have waited in line.

I don't think this is a left/right political issue. It's just drunk stupidity, pure and simple. Disgraceful? sure. politcal? no.

PS
As to the whole communism/facism issue:

I think left/right is a really poor way to understand it. Politics is more like an X/Y axis; "Authoritarian" vs. "Libertarian" and "socialist" vs. "free market", in different combinations. Both Hitler and stalin were extreme authoritarians, with Hilter being a semi-socialist athoritarian (his economics were close to the "old" UK labour Party) and Stalin being a completely socialist authoritarian. The differences were really not that large.

Vitruvius
YES!!!! "the urinator should be shot".For the record I agree with you 100%.That`s my point, you made a statement (see above),are willing to stand by it,and OWN IT! When exactly did that become WRONG?

Lets not over complicate this , folks.
There was a time when an act like this would have resulted in immediate outrage and action from people present. This dipstick would have been made to understand the error of his ways, and not been made a hero of. Right now, you can bet the farm that anyone with the balls to deal with this jerk would have been hauled off to jail by the police.
We have descended to a point where the person who took the picture is fortunate that the mohawks didnt mind.

rob: I'm having a good laugh at being called a Liberal and realize I should have been clearer.

What I mean is that everything eroded under the Libs. Hopefully the arrests will be back. (The police do not change their attitudes overnight when a new gubmnt is elected and our cops are heavily politicized. Same all over the West.)

Now settle down and have some drinks. I know I have.

Never mind, Cat. I agree with you, GM, that the irresponsibility of the disorderly drunks is a tragedy of the commons. I also agree that the left/right dichotomy is an inadequate taxaonomy. The axes formulation that I have preferred as a first approximation are degree of personal freedom and degree of economic freedom. And there are others that are equivalent to varying degrees. Your first approximation works for me too.

But, hey, I'm in favour of conserving liberty. So am I conservative, or liberal? Am I left or right? Or are people simply confusing themselves via inadequate denotational concepts?

I am reminded that sometime in about 1982 Ozzy Osbourne urinated on the front door of the Alamo. He was swiftly arrested, prosecuted and run out of Texas and was effectively barred from returning there for at least ten years. At least it was dealt with. Here in Trudeaupia, I doubt the `wee` perp will ever face any kind of punishment. Sad, but this is what 30-40 years of Canada`s descent into secular, values-free liberalism has finally wrought. Welcome to Hell - and don`t park your hand-cart in the handicapped parking spot.

The un/entitled young man's potty behaviour is not, per se, political.

However, its ramifications, and, in particular, Leftist's comments on this thread, are. Vitruvius made an interesting point.

I've posted twice, in direct response to Leftist's egregious remarks. I've not heard from this person or anyone else--feel free to comment, Vitruvius.

GM
I take issue with your claim of semi-socialist for Hitler. What Fascism does is suppress worker rights and outlaws unions. It aims to make a state wherein the capitalist can operate with the greatest efficiency(ie slaves). This would be the diametric opposite of any socialist endeavour.
I think a modern socialist state would look something like Sweden where all workers belong to unions and are mandated to work out contracts with employers. The state simply assists by taking care of health care and child care and education. Once those are taken care of the employee and employer can focus on pay and working conditions. That is a long way from any Fascist state. That is why Mussolini, the founder of Fascism, said socialism is the opposite of Fascism.

me no dhimmi et al: For god's sake wake up and quit feeding the trolls!!

While it may be the case, Ian, that all proponents of value-free liberalism are secular (I wouldn't know), it is not the case that all proponents of secularism are value-free liberals (I know).

Meanwhile, bully for Texas. Did you know there are nine flights a day between Texas and Alberta? You just wait 'till we both separate and achieve our final military conquest of the eastern slopes of the continental divide. Yee ha, we'll have a mag-lev freight train from the gulf of Mexico to the Arctic Ocean, and wait 'till you see the hydrocarbons we're gonna pull out of the Arctic Ocean, and the Passage Taxes we're gonna place on the Northwest Passage cleared up via the gift of global searing.

Yes, I'm kidding. Happy late Dominion Day weekend, everyone. Remember, if your anger is actually causing you gastrointeritis, do, please, see a doctor. We all care about you.

"Am I left or right? Or are people simply confusing themselves via inadequate denotational concepts?"

You said, Vitruvius. For a dead Roman, you're getting smarter all the time. We've had a fascism/communism/socialism/conservatism discussion several times, and it was never a debate, only a yelling match.

Sorry, insert "it" after "You said ..."

Hi Steve,

While it is true that Facist states are repressive towards workers, they also tend to severely curtail freedom of contract, and typically involve substantial state participation in the economy. In terms of restrictions on economic freedom,
Facist states can be said to resemble socialist states, albeit with different (stated) goals. In both cases, economic freedom is severely curtailed to meet state objectives.

That said, you are correct that a state like Sweden does not resemble a facist state generally.

Hey, baby, we dead Romans get around. You'll usually find us hanging out with the dead Greeks. We dead folks stopped bickering long ago, about the time we died, in fact.

We dead Greeks and Romans do agree, though, that the asshole who urinated on the National War Monument and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier should be publically humiliated to a reasonable degree, in order to express to the kids our understanding of the relative order of things.

Disorderly drunks give a bad name to orderly drunks like me, and I won't stand for it!!!

Next thing you know people will start forgetting that Winston Churchill drank alcohol all day every day, and he saved western civilization.

"Learn your history. The Right was very comfortable with Hilter in the 30's. It was up to the Left to go to Spain and try to stop Fascism there before it could grow into the cancer it became. Where were the Right?
When the battles are for real, genuine causes the Left usually respond first."

Oh the left were the ones that stopped fascism? They are the ones that were against Nazism? They were also the ones that went up against the real fascist state of Italy?

Lets remember:

1. The U.S.S.R. were allies of Hitler until he opted to attack them as well. You know, the most successful left wing country to date? They had a treaty to split eatern Europe amongst the two.

2. Spain, while some argue it to have been a fascist state, others that have studied this longer than you or I cannot state emphatically that it was indeed fascism in Spain. They all agree that Italy was run by fascist. Who stopped Italy? I always thought it to be The U.S., Britain and Canada. You do realize that Liberism than couldn't be considered left wing as it is known to be know don't you? You do relize that in King's diaries he absolutely dispised Jews, blacks, the "welfare state"?

3. The left in Canada, U.S. and Britain held marches and demonstrations in sad attempts to stop their countries from participating in the war. In Canada Quebec held the largest socialist population as well as the most demonstrations against the war.

Now go read an actual book on these subjects. Don't go to your lefty blog and get their views, actually go and read them for yourself.

If you opt to live your live afraid of dying and are willing to bend over and pick up the soap for any group that pressures you into a corner than do not be surprised when you get pricked.

I'm not surprized at all. We've just had 40 yrs of Prime Ministers from Quebec pissing all over our armed forces.

Steve d: "What you said has never happened. What you suppose was communism was not. It was totalitarianism or despotism but not communism.
Communism has never been tried. Elements of communism have been tried but only along side elements of totalitarianism, oligarchy, capitalism and despotism.'

The only people who tried it were first called Bolsheviks, then Communists--as in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

Do you know better what they were than they did themselves? Or are you simply an expert in the mis-application of Marxist theory?

Dr. Dawg: Help me here.

Mark
Ottawa

What about cameras?

Then publish just the faces of anyone stupid enough to partake in this activity.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, a shot of one of the people who did this is on the front page of today's ottawa citizen...

Agreed, Mark. My understanding is that the Bolsheviks and the (less successful) Menshevicks were the core carriers of the fatal communist idiom, and that the national socialists and the stalinists were various disasterous right and left (respectively) attempts to defeat them, and that this is not particularly relevant to the matter of the disrespectful drunk, or current Canadian politics, unless you count Jack Layton, who once said on the CBC that he would rather be called a socialist than a democratic socialist.

Looking at comments on the article at the Ottawa Citizen that's linked, I do note that only perhaps two could even be called "critical" (i.e., of the veterans who want the memorial protected, NOT of the "youts"). FYI.

Well, if it makes you feel any better...GM

What's your point of that gratuitous statement?

I meant all the time, guess I should have used the long form for you.
I'm suggesting it for full time use. Not to mention the person taking the picture is at risk of the companions of the offender attacking the cameraman/woman. Drunk people are stupid and full of liquid courage, wouldn't surprise me if they'd attack a senior citizen, if they perceived they were actually going to have to account for their actions.

I'll try it again just for you GM:

What about full time security cameras?

And one newspaper is not enough, should be carried in every major newspaper until it stops, since the police are not able to cope.

I think it's a good thing that these miscreants get their mug plastered on the front of the daily news. After the Edmonton Sun published the pictures of 10 of the miscreants who were manifestly interfearing with the delivery of fire and emergency medical services to the citizens and businesses in the Whyte Avenue area in Edmonton after some recent sporting event or another, they were all eventually arrested, and are being prosecuted.

I'm not in favour of state video surveillance, though. Orwell's Law, don't you know. You folks might want to check in to Glenn Reynold's (the InstaPundit's) book, "An Army of Davids." The way things are going these days, what with all the cell-phone-soother cameras, the bad guys are being caught in action in spite of the state.

The neighbourhood watch folks can just email them to the cops ;-)

In what way, Kate, is this "a victory for the left"?

Hi Ldd,

My point was quite simple: in this case, at very least, one of the guilty parties did, in fact, suffer the embarrassment of having his photo published. I agree that this isn't enough, but it's better than nothing (hence "it if makes you feel any better...").

I understood your suggestion....I was only trying to offer some consolation.

Many countries have an Honour Guard in place continuously at their tombs of unknowns. I watched the changing of the guard once when I was in Poland and it was very moving. Perhaps this incident will be the catalyst to have something similar. If the government does nothing then it will just be another example of the current shameful lack of respect for those who died for us.

As to drunks showing up for the Canada Day celebrations, police should set up check points at all street entrances and anyone who appears drunk or high should be told to go home or spend the night in jail. If they can't control these types of events then they should not have them.

mark collins

You can call it anything you want but the proof is in the pudding. Marx's entire idea is based around the worker being used and abused by a system of production called factory work which was owned by a few rich who benefitted immensely while having little or no regard for the humanity of workers. So the idea was to give the worker input and dignity. Not a bad goal. Noble when you read about 19th century work life.

This humanity and giving input and dignity to workers is not found in soviet communism. It is what is today called false advertising. Once you have bought in to the product and you find brutal totalitarianism what do you do? Especially when you have just come from a brutal monarchy that had no regard for you either.

This is what Harper does to a lesser extent. He knows Canadians want some socialism so he plays along. They want daycare so he gives everyone with small kids $1200. we both know he doesn't really believe in daycare or social programs but then he wants power. So what is a politican to do? Bides his time and slowly starves the social programs that's what. The longer he is in power the less social programs will be fed. Most people aren't aware of that but we both know its true.

I'm just wondering if there is any differences at all between conservative and liberal urine or even green or bloc for that matter?

Reasonable people would conclude in non-partisan stance it was a disgraceful, belligerant act and chargeable under by-laws? The mention of propensity to use baseball bats on the individual by more than a few on this board is sadly telling of violent mindset of the conservative base.

The rule of law should apply to denigration of our war dead. Resolve to respect it. The dead would appreciate that.

Iberia,

I agree with your first point...we should have some sort of guard on that memorial, at least during daylight hours in the spring/summer months or for special occaisions like Canada day.

But checkpoints? there are literally tens of thousands of people at this celebration, and my recollection from saturday is that most of them appeared at least somewhat drunk. You have to keep in mind as well that the celebrations aren't in a enclosed area. It would require several hundred police officers to secure several blocks of downtown ottawa as well as the hill itself. I think guards or fencing around the important monuments would be more practical.

Long thread: The only thing that needs to be said is that we know things have gone beyond acceptable when a young man (drunk or not) pees on our National War Monument in Ottawa and the crowd around him, rather than correcting his egregious behaviour, laughs.

Something needs to be done and I think our politicians, our veterans, our police, and all thinking and caring Canadians, need to begin to seriously deal with the lack of respect and civility shown by too many Canadians in public places.

I lived in Ottawa for eight years and am very familiar with the National War Monument and its surroundings. The canal is not far away, neither are walkways which are lined with trees and bushes. NO ONE needs to relieve themselves on a national monument to Canada's war dead, when there's an abundance of grass, bushes, and trees, only a short walk away, not to mention washrooms in the many bars and restaurants in Byward Market and on Elgin Street.

There are no excuses.

Long thread: The only thing that needs to be said is that we know things have gone beyond acceptable when a young man (drunk or not) pees on our National War Monument in Ottawa and the crowd around him, rather than correcting his egregious behaviour, laughs.

Something needs to be done and I think our politicians, our veterans, our police, and all thinking and caring Canadians, need to begin to seriously deal with the lack of respect and civility shown by too many Canadians in public places.

I lived in Ottawa for eight years and am very familiar with the National War Monument and its surroundings. The canal is not far away, neither are walkways which are lined with trees and bushes. NO ONE needs to relieve themselves on a national monument to Canada's war dead, when there's an abundance of grass, bushes, and trees, only a short walk away, not to mention washrooms in the many bars and restaurants in Byward Market and on Elgin Street.

There are no excuses.

Little Preamble to the Feature Story.
While on a Stop - over in Gibraltar with the
Canadian Navy in the early '60's, a few Canadian
Sailors made it as far as Madrid, Spain.
While in Madrid, these Canadian Sailors climbed
to the Top of the Monument of Spains National
Hero, El Cid & pissed off it. Naturally, the
Spaniards were not amused.

When we find out who he was, I suggest he wash down the National War Memorial every day until he goes back to school. If there is one speck of dust or urine that he misses, he stays there for another week. We could have saved all this shouting and yelling if the police had just given him a sharp tap with a night stick. Unfortunately the limp wristed judges would have set there hair on fire. Queen Bev and the Moonbats at the SCOC would have written in a whole series of laws to stop the police from enforcing any kind of respect for law and order. Doesn't make you happy to know Trudeau is still laughing. DKT

Thank you all for playing Canadian Survivor: Hans Island.

The tribe has spoken and this 'pissant' has been voted off the island!!

Meg Q
When drunks piss on memorials they are drunks pissing. I do not over react.

When straight church-going christians piss on the homeless, THAT is something to get upset about. If you insist on getting 'pissed off' about something make it about human beings in your own country first. Then human being elsewhere, then somewhere way down on the list you can get pissed off about drunks pissing on monuments.

My apologies for being a bit too abrupt GM, I'm a little touchy when it comes to how LSM or anyone disregards the ones who made the ultimate sacrifice for us. I'm not amused by this one little bit although I'm sure cbc would be.
I'm clearly remembering how cbc treated a Veteran on air last Remembrance Day. Suppose to be the 'Year of the Veteran' - perhaps declared just to be trash by the liberal hand maiden, cbc.

O/T
CTV.CA Evening National News with Lisa Laflam, RE: Israeli/pali conflict. They just broadcast an image of the two flags while flogging the poor pali side of the situation. The Israel Flag, was shown backwards and in dark red, where the blue should have been. The pali flag was shown properly.

Think I'll write them an praise them for proving that it's all the evil joooos fault and I got their nuanced message...

well, considering the near record size of response in a single evening on this posting, I stand by my earlier expression that this monument pissing issue is far from over.

personally, video cameras are the way to go. passive, 24/7, irrefutable, viewable over and over again, slow-mo, frame capture etc. std vid format .wmv; upload to the internet to search out the culprits. etc etc

I have a total of 3 cameras in my place for a measly 1200 bucks, the cost of the expansion card, cameras, cable and trade in to a bigger hard drive. you can get nite vision capable, wide angle, color or b/w, up to 16 cameras on one system and ALL cheap OFF THE SHELF PARTS.

if I could do an attachement I would show you the profile of some 20something slut breaking in to my car in the driveway. right under the sign warning all of the presence of video cameras.

the local cops have the video and if they ID the bitch she will be charged with B&E for the sake of 5 bucks in parking meter coins. all you need is to tap into a 110 V o/l for the camera's power supply and then use a wireless connection for the video signal.

I even got to write off the ENTIRE expense on my taxes (rental property upgrade).

1200 bucks, good for years to come.

Perhaps part of the punishment for weeing on the NWM should be to have to stand around on a busy street corner in the middle of the week and wear a big sign that says:

"I desecrated the National War Memorial with my tiny little weenie."

Another part of the punishment should be to have their photographs published all over the place, as if they were mobsters or terrorists or something.

Treat 'em like Pee-Wee Herman was treated for having "it" out at the naughty movies.

I hope that no leftist judge lets them off. I hope the book gets thrown at them... literally.

These moonbats must be treated with contempt and scorn by the public.

Perhaps we should start pillorying such deviants again? You know, that wooden thing with the holes for the head and hands that puts such crapheads on display for the public.

Pee-Wee Herman, Hugh Grant, Bill Clinton, and now these brobdingnagianly pathetic dumbasses? They win the prize for sheer perverted assholery. It shall be presented by the Supreme Overlord of Moonbattery.

I'm so sick of moonbats taking their winkies out all the bloody time!

In some parts of the world they'd have their peenie-pipes chopped off!

Rotten blankedy blanks they should be made to clean up that mess with toothbrush and teacup then send them to aplace where they can get a good application in their rears and screw the so called experts

I was totally disgusted with these unpatriotic unappreciative low lifes
urinating on the War Memorial.

As far as I'm concerned there should be increased security around these
Monuments (but really........isn't sad that we have to?)

I would also like to see minimal 6 months prison and minimal $20,000.00 fine
for defacing of any War Monument or Veterans facility such as a Legion
Building.

These losers have no idea what was sacrificed for them. To tell you
truth............if one wasn't there to experience, I don't think one can
really understand what they gave.

We all know what would have happen to them if they would have done this to a
monument in a country run by a dictatorship or such.

To think..........these men giving their lives for the freedom of these
losers to urinate on their memorial for giving the ultimate gift of their
lives.

Maybe these "losers" who think that urinating on a War Memorial is funny
should be shipped over to Afghanistan for awhile.

Call it an education.

"strike up another victory for the left"...so you are 100% sure they were ALL left leaning, huh? Your proof being? Or more right wing retoric?

Hi Ldd,

Don't worry about being abrupt. As a former Army Reservist, I understand completely where you are coming from.
My great-grandfather served at Vimy Ridge; under different circumstances that could have been his grave.

.........................................

As to the appropriate punishment for these individuals:

If they can be identified, have them pay a fine, prehaps do a few days in jail, clean the monument off, and make sure their names/faces are on the Newspapers and T.V. News.
Oh, and make them go to a legion meeting and explain to the vetrans there what they did...hopefully all they get is an earful....

In future, just put a section of GGFG's or Cameron Highlanders (their armouries are right around the corner) on the War memorial and on the peacekeeping memorial. We shouldn't have to do this, but it would certianly prevent it in future.

Pride in Canada's huge military sacrifices and successes in wars and ferious battles while "peacekeeping" has been extracted over the Liberal years.

To be sure, these louts are not acting in the "American" way. One has to see the care by the Honour Guard mounted 24/7 for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Washington DC to understand my comment.

I would not recommend charging these quite stupid young men. Rather I would escort them to Washington to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. This would teach them a mind-shaping lesson and, believe me, there would be no motivation to urinate with the Honour Guard of the 1st Infantry Division that is on duty perpetually.

In the meantime, shame them by identifying them by name and photo in the TV and print media.

Kindest regards,

Peter Quinn

Pride in Canada's huge military sacrifices and successes in wars and ferious battles while "peacekeeping" has been extracted over the Liberal years.

To be sure, these louts are not acting in the "American" way. One has to see the care by the Honour Guard mounted 24/7 for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Washington DC to understand my comment.

I would not recommend charging these quite stupid young men. Rather I would escort them to Washington to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. This would teach them a mind-shaping lesson and, believe me, there would be no motivation to urinate with the Honour Guard of the 1st Infantry Division that is on duty perpetually.

In the meantime, shame them by identifying them by name and photo in the TV and print media.

Kindest regards,

Peter Quinn

"NC Smith…are you on crack? Either that or you stood close to too many concussion bombs before you retired. Trying to tie the actions of some misbehaving youth to the 13 years of Liberal government is nothing short of insane. One other thing…I know the family of the young man in the picture…and guess what, his Mom and Dad are both card carrying CPC members. go figure eh….

Frank - an anxious nation might want to know more about the urinator. — Garth "

http://www.garth.ca/weblog/2006/07/03/the-national-war-urinal/

"One other thing…I know the family of the young man in the picture…and guess what, his Mom and Dad are both card carrying CPC members."

1. Sources, please, for that statement.

2. It wasn't the parents that got caught on camera.

3. If it is so, then we can have some hope that this dude will get as good at home, as he gets from the public 'spanking'.

4. This is not a youngster, but he sure is a product of his generation, all compliments of Liberal training... and to think, they want our children from birth onward now.

It is disgusting and disgraceful that our war dead are being defiled in such a way. It speaks volumes about the society we live in today, one where nobody has any respect for anyone else, dead or alive.
The solution? Heck, I don't know. The urinators should definitely face criminal charges, to be made an example of. We shouldn't tolerate such revolting and shameful behaviour. Beyond that, all of us should start treating each other with more respect.

steve:

A) how can you "overreact" to this (and be proud of that - well, I guess that proves you're not a Harper KKKonservative fascist, right?)? (And by "fascist" I don't mean a socialist - etc. etc. etc.)

B) at any rate, I was primarily summing up arguments in the thread to that point. Don't know about "straight church-going christians piss[ing] on the homeless", if I see that here in Edmonton I'll give them a good talking to and if I hear about it in the U.S., sure it will be on my blog. Glad you dragged it in for pertinency, though. You're staying on point as always, steve.

Geez, I used to wonder why my husband wanted to move away from Canada (personally I see a lot of hope for the future here), but now I'm understanding more.

While you ruminate over 'urinary disgraces Canadian style', you may want to check out Daily Kos entry citing U.S. conservative website advising members to "hunt down" and locate children of NYT editors. Discuss this mindset, purpose, endgame which showplaces the 'new low' in party politics. Discuss how some in our society are now thinking through newest 'terror targets' -- innocent children of their fellow citizens. Words fail me...

Tommy, maybe you'd be so good as to provide a linkity-link to let us know about that "U.S. conservative website"? Not everyone likes to go wading through Kosland.

Kate: you may not be aware of this but a couple weeks ago, 1 block from the War Memorial and across the street from Garth Turner's condo, a streetkid named "Cactus" got his throat cut. Here's why:

Homeless man killed in fight over public urination, witnesses say
Victim confronted suspect in his 'home' under bridge

Andrew Seymour, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Thursday, June 15, 2006
Article tools

A fight witnesses said was sparked by a man urinating in public underneath one of Ottawa's busiest intersections ended with a 21-year-old homeless man being stabbed and slashed to death early yesterday.

Steven Beriault, known as Cactus to his friends, had his throat slashed and was stabbed repeatedly in the chest, abdomen and neck after witnesses said he confronted a muscular man who relieved himself on the stairs leading down to the pedestrian walkway where Mr. Beriault often slept under Colonel By Drive, near the corner of Rideau Street and Sussex Drive.

"He didn't know he had a knife. He just pulled it out of nowhere," said Matthew Perron, 17, who was sitting with Mr. Beriault and about five other people when the attack occurred at about 12:50 a.m.

Michel Lalonde, 16, who also witnessed the stabbing, said his friend told the much larger man, "don't piss down here." The man then approached Mr. Beriault and stood just inches from his face before telling him he "owned these streets", said Mr. Lalonde.

"He said I'm 'T' from Toronto. I'm going to f--k your s--t up," said Mr. Perron, describing how Mr. Beriault then struck the man once in the face and once in the back of the head with his squeegee.

Mr. Beriault's friends said the man -- who is described as black with short hair wearing a red shirt and jeans -- then pulled out a folding knife with a four or five inch blade and began rapidly jabbing Mr. Beriault at least a half a dozen times. The suspect also slashed and injured a dog belonging to one of Mr. Beriault's friends.

"The guy just started stabbing him. We kept screaming at him to run, but he refused," said Mr. Perron, adding no one had ever seen the suspect before.

Mr. Lalonde said at one point, the attacker grabbed Mr. Beriault's head and pulled the knife across his throat. The attack lasted only seconds before the man fled south on Colonel By Drive, said Mr. Lalonde.

"He stood there for three seconds, looked at himself, and then he just fell backward," said Mr. Lalonde.

Mr. Perron said he crouched next to his friend as he struggled to breathe. He was pronounced dead at hospital a short time later.

Mr. Beriault, who had been drinking prior to the fight, frequently slept under the bridge and took offence to the man urinating there, friends said.

"We like to keep it clean. It's our home," said Mr. Perron.

Last night, Mr. Beriault's mother Marie said news of her son's death yesterday morning hit her like "a punch in the mouth."

"He was a great son. He never hurt someone," she said from her Gatineau home, adding her son was supposed to visit her for dinner last night.

Instead she was at the police station, meeting with homicide detectives following his murder.

"I think it's cruel what happened and I hope they catch the criminal who did this," said Ms. Beriault, who last spoke to her son three weeks ago. "He had no right to do this."

Ms. Beriault said her son had moved out onto the streets three years ago after recovering from serious injuries he suffered after being struck by a pair of cars while walking to school along St. Raymond Boulevard.

"He said I'm 'T' from Toronto. I'm going to f--k your s--t up," said Mr. Perron, describing how Mr. Beriault then struck the man once in the face and once in the back of the head with his squeegee.

Mr. Beriault's friends said the man -- who is described as black with short hair wearing a red shirt and jeans -- then pulled out a folding knife with a four or five inch blade and began rapidly jabbing Mr. Beriault at least a half a dozen times. The suspect also slashed and injured a dog belonging to one of Mr. Beriault's friends.

"The guy just started stabbing him. We kept screaming at him to run, but he refused," said Mr. Perron, adding no one had ever seen the suspect before.

Mr. Lalonde said at one point, the attacker grabbed Mr. Beriault's head and pulled the knife across his throat. The attack lasted only seconds before the man fled south on Colonel By Drive, said Mr. Lalonde.

"He stood there for three seconds, looked at himself, and then he just fell backward," said Mr. Lalonde.

Mr. Perron said he crouched next to his friend as he struggled to breathe. He was pronounced dead at hospital a short time later.

Mr. Beriault, who had been drinking prior to the fight, frequently slept under the bridge and took offence to the man urinating there, friends said.

"We like to keep it clean. It's our home," said Mr. Perron.

www.canada.com/ottawa/news/city/story.html?id=9a93d389-d51c-45e7-b865-683f72e22eb5&k=9551&p=1

Mark Collins:

The only people who tried it were first called Bolsheviks, then Communists--as in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

Do you know better what they were than they did themselves? Or are you simply an expert in the mis-application of Marxist theory?

Dr. Dawg: Help me here.

This is really the wrong thread for it. The kids here are trying to politicize a bunch of drunks. I can't tell who are the bigger idiots.

But for the record, the Bolsheviks established socialism, not communism. Socialism was meant to be a transition stage between capitalism and communism. Under the latter, the state was supposed to wither away.

The Bolsheviks weren't the only group that tried to set us on this path. Mao's wrinkle on this was "New Democracy," meant to be a transition stage between capitalism and socialism. In actual fact, it meant trying to set up shop with the Kuomintang, with a "Bloc of Four Classes" approach. Space does not permit...

In any case, the failings of the command-and-control model hardly have to be raised again. Against those experiments, one can best quote Marx, from The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon:

The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living. And just as they seem to be occupied with revolutionizing themselves and things, creating something that did not exist before, precisely in such epochs of revolutionary crisis they anxiously conjure up the spirits of the past to their service, borrowing from them names, battle slogans, and costumes in order to present this new scene in world history in time-honored disguise and borrowed language.

When past models (say, Tsarism) are command-and-control, use command-and-control. Invoke, as Stalin did during WWII, the spirit of Ivan the Terrible. When the only model of shop-floor production is a boss yelling at his workers, demand the same thing, as Lenin famously did.

Steve is right that communism has never been tried, although it would be more accurate to say that communism has never been achieved--and isn't likely to be with centralized, undemocratic models of socialism as the proposed vehicle of progress.

End of lecture, but you did ask for something like it.

I just wonder what the bladder challenged dude is thinking right now, *knowing* he is the one front and centre of this extended sound bite.

someone is going to recognize him and my prediction is he will be outed.

its going to be interesting to see what happens then in the liberal dominated legal system repleat with such nonsense as the francis fox liberal inserted 'faint hope clause'. (no word yet how fuking 'faint' the 'hope' has to be before the keys are finally melted down)

Dr. Dawg: Thank you for confirming that Lenin, Stalin et al. were socialists (you are of course right, the CPSU never claimed the USSR had achieved Communism, it was "building communism".

Stever d. So the Soviets--with all their horrors--were in fact leftists.

Now you have PM Harper going from Bush-lite to Stalin-lite. The man must swing both ways. Good grief.

Mark
Ottawa

Mark:

It's worth pointing out that all Leninists were socialists, but not all socialists are Leninists. Just so people here don't get the wrong idea.

Dr. Dawg: Absolutely. No one could accuse Bob Rae of being a Leninist, though now he is another sort "L"ist. Along with Ujjal.

Mark
Ottawa

The desecration of the national war memorial was a snap shot of the historic psychosis and political dyslexia that has been indoctrinated in two generations of Canadians.

If these traitorous quislings felt that were engaging in a patriotic act on Dominion day, with a deconstructionist display against Canada's military history, they have had the historical reality of the role the military, and the conflicts they have served in, has played in defining the Canadian epoch and forging our national identity.

If their intent was to defile the war memorial as a fabian statement that Canada is now defined by a narrow set of partisan political ideals which propagate the lie of iternational respect through self destructive pascifism, hollow peacenick roll playing on the global stage, and a myth that desparate conflicts are resolved by "peace keepers" they obviously suffer from the degenerate political programming that has robbed 2 generations of Canadians of their true identity with a fraudulent revised historic record.

Tracking them down and punishing them is like sticking a finger in a hole in the dam...the real solution rests in countering with fact 30 years of politically motivated historic revisionism spewed at us daily from all the usual partisan suspects......any takers?

"Go hunt them down and do America a favor. Get their photo, street address, where their kids go to school, anything you can dig up, and send it to the link above. This is your chance to be famous - grab for the golden ring."

http://thepoliticalinsight.blogspot.com/2006/07/ny-times-gives-directions-to-rumsfelds.html

meg Q
Well, you can go after the Republicans who think raising the minimum wage from $5.15 per hour is a bad thing to do becuse record corporate profits cannot lowered by paying workers anything even close to a living wage. As Jon Stewart said, it was a monumental crap on the working poor. I would say that is a tad more serious than pissing on monuments wouldn't you?

Tommy said, "Discuss how some in our society are now thinking through newest 'terror targets' -- innocent children of their fellow citizens. Words fail me..."

Have words failed you, Tommy, over the innocent children who have been targeted over the last 25 years by abortion? 2,500,000 in the past 25 years in Canada and 25,000,000 in the United States?

mark collins
The soviets used a Marxist idea, collective farms, as a tool to expand the influence of the party which was oligarchic totalitarian in nature. A small group hijacked an idea and used it to attain and maintain power. There are no real socialist ideas in play. I understand your brainwashing has been complete as far as socialism is concerned but as Marx said capitalism has within it the seeds of its own destruction. Its vehicle is conservatism. As conservatism grows so capitalism is supplied by more fuel with which to self destruct.

Ironically, capitalism may save itself by promoting socialist ideas like universal health care in the US. Something like a Swedish model may save a major train wreck. As it is, with the $5.15 minimum wage remaining, the number of working poor rising, the number without health care rising, the gap between rich and poor increasing, this reality is not sustainable.

W L Mackenzie redux : Good post. Historical revisionism is the disease, the pissing the symptom. The solution: a more muscular and balanced curriculum, impossible to imagine taught by unionized, socialist teachers.

While I haven't studied the curriculum of our public school system, I have a strong sense from anecdotal reports that the overarching theme is shame of Western Civilization. Re: WW2 that would be principally the shame of a) Japanese internmet and b) Hiroshima/Nagasaki, the latter of which is linked to virulent anti-Americansim.

Indeed, last November I was dragged by my wife to a Remembrance Day mens' choral concert in which the most potent sentiment expressed was in a maudlin tear-jerker song about a young Japanese girl victim. Horrific, to be sure, but notably lacking in the concert was any strong sentiment and chest-expanding pride for our heroic soldiers and great epic battles, or any notion of the ascendant morality on our side.

The pisser is a yahoo expressing igonroance and shame. The shame ACTIVELY taught in our feminized public school system.

Canadian Observer is right: punishment yes, but we need to go deeper, go back to basics and learn pride in our heritage.

Everybody seems to be reading more into this than it really is. It's not a conspiracy by the left/right/fascist/socialist/liberal/conservative factions.
It is simply a drunken moron who thought he would show off for the crowd to show what a cool hilarious guy he was.
The best best way to deal with him is to give him a large fine and EMBARASS the hell out of him by making him scrub down monuments and memorials in as public a way as possible.
He won't be waving his weenie after that.

Me No Dhimmi
I think you would love the education the Hitler Youth had. It was just as you described. Muscular and balanced with unions banned and socialists in concentration camps. It sounds like your utopian wet dream.

Steve D: loses it, mentioned Hitler Youth.

Invoking Godwins law, the debate is lost.

Don't lose your bladder over it.

Hans rupprecht
I know it makes you squirm a little but I think I was spot on in my reply to Me No Dhimmi. Hitler Youth meets all his requirements.

Steve d.

Why do you have to bring in the "Great Socialist Adolf Hitler" and try and spout off about Hitler-wasn't-really-a-socialist-he-was-a-right-winger-posing-as-a-socialist-to-gain-credibility garbage? Of course, this line of garbage does nothing to explain the genocide by The Social Democratic Party in Kosovo under Slobodan Milosevic in the 1990's, or any other mass slaughters by "Peace Loving Socialists" throughout the world, but hey, if your professor said it was true, it must be! I also notice that the left isn't too quick to claim ownership of the movement towards socialism in South America. Hugo Chavez, we all know how that is going to end. Then the Socialists will go on to explain how he too, was just trying to use the "good name" of socialism to gain power. Steve d, don't you ever get tired of trying to explain all these conspiracy theories? Maybe these people like Hitler, Hussein, Chavez, Milosevic, Franco, Mussolini and the list goes on, call/called themselves Socialists because they are/were Socialists? After all, all things being equal, the simplest answer is most likely the correct one. (I know that isn't the exact quote, but close enough)

Now, let's try not to bring Hitler into every debate.

Sorry to go OT a here, but think a wider point needs to be made here:

"Are moslems doing a better job at protecting their culture and heritage from denigration than non-moslems are? And if so, why is that?" Just asking.

To ask this question may be to answer it: Why weren't some of those yobs pissing against a mosque?

I guess I'm wondering what road we are heading down...The trouble with a culture of self-denigration is that it isn't FOR anything, and rebellion gets old fast.

Ask yourselves, if you were a young moslem male immigrant, what would you think of Canada on seeing this kind of thing?

Now, I'm not going to excuse what this kid did but there is an explanation that needs to be considered:

Did the kid even know what he was pissing on? Was the kid even aware of what that monument means? Do you think that the educational system has instilled in that kid the history, responsibility and civics needed to comprehend what that monument stands for?

My guess is the kid was clueless (and would be as clueless sober as he is drunk.) There are very few people in his age group who know anything at all of history because it's no longer taught. Instead of Dieppe we now get sensitivity training and the history of racism from bad old Canada.

I would bet our educational system (and bad parenting) is more to blame than the stupid kid.

If ,however, the kid did know what he was doing that's different. If this was a drunken anti-war or foolish anti-bush stunt he needs a beating followed by a one-way trip to North Korea... It's just unfortunate that even the most worthless dregs of society are protected by the rule of law.

Chill out everyone, as an experienced "lager lout" in my younger days, so long ago, I can tell you, when nature calls from a pisstank's bladder it will not be denied. Any dark corner will suffice and no thought goes into its selection. There are no profound conclusions to be drawn from this, the young fellow in the photo knew not what he was doing, for all we know he obsesses with the military and spends most of sober time playing bloodthirsty war games on his X-Box game system.

The simple solution? Bright floodlights illuminating every nook and cranny of the War Memorial, drunks like a little privacy when they relieve their bursting bladders.

Cut the dumb drunken kid a little slack, he's not a monster, he'll likely grow and change with age.

As for you all who are engaging that lunatic steve d. on his moronic commie ideas, ignore him. Basically, socialism/communism must be brutally oppressive and totalitarian in order to accomplish their required fundamental transformation of human nature. Only the most helplessly primative and ignorant of humans, humanity in its lowest form, wishes to be a part of an enslaved collective society. Civilized humans want progress and freedom and it takes brutal violence, the bayonet, to force them into a collective. Life's losers, the lowest among us, such as steve d., don't know this, all they can think about is somehow getting something for themselves to improve their miserable lot in life, and they are such hopeless losers they think a massive oppressive all-controlling communist government will take better care of them. It is to laugh...

Question was asked:

"Ask yourselves, if you were a young moslem male immigrant, what would you think of Canada on seeing this kind of thing?"

He would see that Canadians are reacting with vigor on this.

And the subject of debate will not have his hand chopped off, or anything else, in this country, as a penalty.

There have been attacks on Mosques, so not sure about validity of other point. Perhaps had a Mosque been where the Memorial was, it too would have been the victim...

Lack of respect is lack of respect...

steve d,

It's pretty difficult to convince people that the National Socialist Party were not, ah um, socialists. Add to that their love of propoganda. Brainwashing the youth. State owned and controlled media. No freedom of thought, let alone speech. And a leader who was a strict vegetarian. Hell, it's even more difficult.

I don't envy you in your task.

But now, contrary to all history books you're claiming Communist Russia was not communist?

Sheesh, at least your sticking to your historical revisionism - which of course is just another socialist weapon against mankind.

Long thread eh?

I think Revnant Dream solves the problem with this post and I think maybe PM Harper should take his recommendation as it offers another good chance for the PM to show the stupid lefties that there is a new sheriff in town. :0)

"Why don't we have an honor guard 24/7, 365 days a year?

Are we that shallow, or think this such a small thing? We leave the honored dead alone in death. Without the living, by deed show their gratitude?

I believe that having living peers standing on guard would be a great tribute. It not only shows respect for their self sacrifice, but is a warning to those who hate us that we have fought for our civil rights as human beings before & will again till death."

IMHO, that is what should happen. Canadians should never accept any descretion of this National monument ever again.

Also by now I think the RCMP may know who the young man is.

I would hope he knows he made a terrible mistake and he will stand up, make the proper full apology with NO EXCUSES and take his punishment.

I also agree what Guiliani did in NY has proven to be the "right" way.

Recently I have watched the buildings in my own beautiful city park come under assault by graffiti terrorists.

If I were king all graffiti would be painted over within 24 hours.

My town is going to appease the graffiti terrorists and build or give them a special wall where their "artwork" is going to be featured.

Our families war dead, about 4 in the immediate family would be laughing their asses off.

There's an old zen saying ... losely:

"don't mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon.

PenGun

PenGun: I'm curious. Your family would be "laughing their asses off" about what exactly?

Hey Tommy, Its a lot more than just words that fail you and your ilk. Jake

What the heck does this have to do with "the left"?

"communism has never been tried"

Sure it has. They're called Hutterite Colonies around here.

However, it seems idealists like steve d. don't have the integrity to walk the walk unless they can force their utopian system on everyone else.

KC:

The only thing this has to do with the left is that the offender is clearly pictured with a "steaming golden stream" that is to the left of the viewer of the picture.

In this sense the 'pissant' is a leftist.

Since the particular topic of Nazi vs. Socialism seems to keep coming up all the time, here are a couple of excerpts of definitions from Wikipedia:

Nazism was the ideology held by the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, commonly called NSDAP or the Nazi Party). The word Nazism is most often used in connection with the government of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945 (the "Third Reich"). Nazism combines racism, nationalism, anti-Semitism and anti-communism. The Nazis believed in the superiority of an Aryan master race, advocated individual leadership in a strong, centralized government, and claimed to be defending Germany and the entire Western world against communism and Jewish subversion.

Nazi ideology was overwhelmingly shaped by one man, Adolf Hitler, who joined the Nazi party when the ideology was young, and went up the ranks to be leader of the movement. Thus, Nazism is almost identical to Hitler's political beliefs. The link between Hitler and Nazism is so strong that Nazism itself is sometimes considered merely a collection of one man's often contradictory ideas rather than a coherent ideology...

In both popular thought and academic scholarship, Nazism is generally considered a type of fascism - with "fascism" defined so as to include most of the other authoritarian, nationalist, totalitarian, and right-wing movements that developed in Europe at about the same time as Nazism. The Nazis themselves, however, rejected the notion that they were part of any larger movement - fascist or otherwise. Nazism claimed to be unique and exclusively German, unrelated to other ideologies or other cultures.

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to social control. [1] As an economic system, socialism is usually associated with state or collective ownership of the means of production. This control, according to socialists, may be either direct, exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils, or it may be indirect, exercised on behalf of the people by the state...

It is difficult to make generalizations about the diverse array of doctrines and movements that have been referred to as "socialist." The various adherents of contemporary socialist movements do not agree on a common doctrine or program. As a result, the movement has split into different and sometimes opposing branches, particularly between moderate socialists and communists.

Just because the word "Socialist" is part of the name of the party doesn't necessarily mean that it actually is socialist. This is much like how today's conservatives are actually classical liberals.

Please, lets give this topic a rest.

I find it rather funny how the socialist dislike their past enough to, sadly, try to claim it to really have been conservative minded people acting as socialists to gain power.

The facts state that Socialism and Communism does not work as human greed will always take over.

They must bring socialism to the classroom so that the children can be brainwashed into the unnatural way of thinking, they must build large bureaucracies so that their friends and family can have nice cushy jobs, they must quash any rebellion so that they do not lose their status within the socialist movement and they must kill any individuals involved in any large uprising so that those who may become involved know the dire consequences of failure.

Canada has already achieved stage one of the socialist agenda. Our children are already brought through school learning more about how they should act rather than math, English or history. Canada is also well on its way in building huge bureaucracies and dolling out jobs in these industries to their kin and close friends. I hope a growing number of people realize that we are slowly heading toward the communist model in Canada and start to demand more from their elected officials in regards to dismantling the bureaucratic monster. I am not encouraged by the $1,200 babysitter allowance that was handed out by Stephen Harper, but it was better than the alternative.

A despicable act and should be punished. BUT--can we have soldiers standing there for everyone to see? Is this not the Liberal prophecy coming true--you know--soldiers in the streets, in Canada--we are not making this up--we are not allowed to?

Kate:

You won't catch any Hutterites dropping their trowsers or hiking their dresses to piss on war memorials either, even though they are pacifists.

I wrote a paper on them for my cultural anthropology course some years ago. They took the exceptional course of making a community statement on same sex marriage, which is not the normal course for this closed community. Pretty decent people overall and a sturdy people with spine in the farming community.

This is but a tempest in a teapot. The overwhelming majority of people who pass the monument do so with reverence and respect, yet here goes the liberal media, whipping up a big storm over it. Should the brats be punished? For sure, but nothing more than to give a cleaning to the monument, as the publication of their photos across the country is pretty just.

I find it shameful that so many have so much outrage about this. For me, it's a source of bemusement at best, because I find that these symbols are more than strong enough to withstand these stupid acts. It's too bad that Kate and others feel these are fragile precious eggs that can't be breathed on the wrong way lest the fall apart and take all we hold dear with them. Our symbols have as much strength as we give them - to me, they can withstand fire, pee, paint and whatever else the ignorant and the stupid choose to throw at them. It's a treason of the heart to say otherwise.

In Ontario where I was educated, alas, Conservative governments were in charge of everything to do with education. So you see, I didn't have a fair chance at a real education. So now I suffer, and so do all who read my postings. Let me be a constant reminder to the shortcomings of a Conservative run system. It is unfortunate that I couldn't have been educated under the nanny state system that served Kate so well.

Former Deputy-PM Sheila Copps recently wrote an article entitled "Taxes Will Set You Free". And in what activity do people engage in order to pay taxes?? Why that would be "work" of course. In other words "Work Will Set You Free". Gee, just where have we seen this slogan before? Why that one of the slogans of the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party. Yes Sheila thinks that "Arbeit Macht Vrie" just as her facist compatriots did.Liberalism equals socialism which by its very nature must degenerate into facism and totalitarianism.

steve d.

Honestly, why do you even come here? You're about as dumb as they come and prove it in nearly every post. Your last post is the icing on the cake.

Your facts are usually wrong, your opinions are seriously misguided, and not to mention that fact that most reasonable people can't agree with you on most things.

You really must not have anything better to do than troll.

Good luck in the real world...

steve d.

Honestly, why do you even come here? You're about as dumb as they come and prove it in nearly every post. Your last post is the icing on the cake.

Your facts are usually wrong, your opinions are seriously misguided, and not to mention that fact that most reasonable people can't agree with you on most things.

You really must not have anything better to do than troll.

Good luck in the real world...

After years of experience in various occupations dealing with the general public at all hours of the day and night, I long ago abandoned any expectation of gleaning any meaningful insights into anything as a result of the behaviour of the village idiots. Let us move on.

Steve d.

Whatever you have it's getting worse. Get back on your meds.

Ron wrote: "It is simply a drunken moron who thought he would show off for the crowd to show what a cool hilarious guy he was."

Me No Dhimmi wrote: "The solution: a more muscular and balanced curriculum, impossible to imagine taught by unionized, socialist teachers...I have a strong sense from anecdotal reports that the overarching theme is shame of Western Civilization. Re: WW2 that would be principally the shame of a) Japanese internmet and b) Hiroshima/Nagasaki, the latter of which is linked to virulent anti-Americansim."

Me No Dhimmi is right and Ron is wrong.

Young people would not have peeed on the National War Memorial 20 years ago. It was not a problem. I was living in Ottawa at the time, and it just didn't happen. Something has changed since then, and it is as MND says: Our school curriculum, across Canada, is put together by and, largely, executed in the classroom by unionized, socialist-leaning administrators and teacers.

Our kids are learning absolutely no respect for our Western heritage and, in fact, are taught to hate it. Every race, religion, and history is better than those of the heritage of the French and British who helped form Canada's democracy, though the French heritage is more "welcome" in the classroom than the British heritage.

This young man relieving himself on a war memorial to Canada's dead soldiers is a symptom of a deep rot, a deep decadence in our society, and MND's solution is one to keep in mind. He's right, however, to point out that a more rigorous and disciplined curriculum is very unlikely to either be championed by or enforced by the present overseers of public education.

I predict that increasingly more private schools and charter schools are likely to be created. Public education as it is now is a scandal and is certainly not up to the enormous changes needed in order to restore in many of our young people respect and appreciaton for their heritage, a heritage which others sacrificed their lives to pass on to them.

WLM redux: "...the real solution rests in countering with fact 30 years of politically motivated historic revisionism spewed at us daily from all the usual partisan suspects......any takers?"

---I try to do that all the time on my blog.

Unfortunately, leftists don't have open minds. Their heads were filled up with crap and crazy-glued shut long ago.

"Lest We Forget"
We have forgotten. As an entire society, we have forgotten or we have never known.
We have never known what it was to be alive during the Second World War and why it was fought. Who fought and why and what kind of price was paid by all those involved.
In a world war everyone is involved and everyone pays to one degree or another.
Millions died and paid the ultimate price.
Others survived to go on once 'hostilities' had ceased. Meaning the guns stopped firing and the bombs stopped hailing from the sky.
But the struggle for the idealogies fought over survived and insidiously crept their way into the psyche of an unsuspecting and ignorant populace all over the world.
Unaware of the kind of personal sacrifice the war memorials erected in many countries represented due to ignorance and a society too busy scrambling to enslave a population grown rich and happy with the peace and prosperity that followed the victors to bother to educate their subsequent generations, this generation seems all too absorbed in their own pleasures to realize why they live in a free society and who paid the price for it.
This has nothing to do with Liberal or Conservative. Our western societies have forgotten and failed to educate our young and instill in them the pride and price of freedom and democracy. It is a priceless ideal for all human beings and the price has been enormously high.
We will all too soon perhaps find we have to sacrifice as many of our fellows are doing now for these freedoms.
I agree that those who desecrated the war memorials on Canada Day no less richly deserve a damn good beating. But, it is like shutting the door of the barn after the horses have fled.
We have allowed so many crimes to be committed by our 'ruling' politicians. We have not educated our children or ourselves in the issues of the day to ensure we were voting in those who would man the helm of this country responsibly.
We have allowed the courts to legislate from the bench, ignorant of how our society works.
Ignorance is all too often conquered into slavery and oblivion.
It is time we took charge and ensured our own education and that of our young.
Otherwise we will have 'pissed' away our right to freedom and democracy and may very well face a fight to the finish as so many millions did a half century ago.

"When straight church-going christians piss on the homeless, THAT is something to get upset about."

And when, exactly, was the last time you spent an evening in a soup kitchen? I have, several times.

In fact, I'm part of a brand new church, and we're seeking ways to serve the down and out better. At present, we have many social programs paid for by the government, and many church related ministries to help out those who really need help.

There are, however, MANY chronic abusers of the system... I've dealt with many over the years in ministry and my various employment.

Do you accuse me, a straight, Church-going Christian, of "taking a leak" on the poor?

Your ignorance betrays you. I await your appology.

"When straight church-going christians piss on the homeless, THAT is something to get upset about."

And when, exactly, was the last time you spent an evening in a soup kitchen? I have, several times.

In fact, I'm part of a brand new church, and we're seeking ways to serve the down and out better. At present, we have many social programs paid for by the government, and many church related ministries to help out those who really need help.

There are, however, MANY chronic abusers of the system... I've dealt with many over the years in ministry and my various employment.

Do you accuse me, a straight, Church-going Christian, of "taking a leak" on the poor?

Your ignorance betrays you. I await your appology.

new kid on the block: Many thanks for your reference to mine. I was thinking of you last night when I encoutered this quote from John Dewey (the founder of public education in America) in Coulter's tour de force, Godless (p 152). I knew about Dewey but did not realize how openly he stated his objectives:

"You can't make Socialists out of individualists -- children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming, where everyone is interdependent".

A few weeks ago I had lunch with a industry colleague who has school-age kids. He said to me, "They teach socialism in the schools". I was startled to hear him put it so succinctly and accurately.

I completely agree with your observations about the "rot", and that "something has changed". And I also agree that this kind of thing just did not happen 20 years ago.

"One has to see the care by the Honour Guard mounted 24/7 for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Washington DC to understand my comment."

It's the Tombs of the Unknowns, because it represents all the services, not just the Army, although it's the Army that permanently mounts guard there. It's also across the river in Arlington, Virginia, not in DC proper.

"...there would be no motivation to urinate with the Honour Guard of the 1st Infantry Division that is on duty perpetually."

That's the Third US Infantry Regiment ("The Old Guard"), which is the oldest active unit in the regular army (there being National Guard units in some of the original 13 states with lineages going back to the colonial period).

Thank God we Landed on the beaches of Norway so many years ago..who knows to what levels rememberance,recognition and informed education would have bottomed to had we not done so that fateful day...

Well said "snowbunnie"

snowbunnie: Yes, very well said!

Ti-Guy: "You paranoid psychos are a hoot!"

Now there's a sophisticated argument! Is it a PhD in Philosophy you have T1-Guy?

Snowbunnie: "We have forgotten. As an entire society, we have forgotten or we have never known."

---There's a couple more possibilities for the population: 1) People just don't care and 2) They believe we're free because "we're rich".

I didn't just make that up. Learned it in a discussion with a family member (an in-law) who actually said exactly those two things! Doesn't care and doesn't understand how we are free in the first place. The ironic thing is that her father was a navy captain.

Makes me sad. That's why I blog about this stuff so much. People need an education, which they're not getting from the public education system, nor from the MSM, etc. But the difficulty is that they're so spoiled with dumb luck/silver spoons/no discipline/no sense of responsibility, etc. to even care.

I feel lucky that I haven't been lucky enough to make the big, fat bucks yet, despite having trained for it. Nothing like a dose of cold, hard reality to make one value the things that others take for granted (leftists take freedom for granted).

Well, no, Kate, you didn't say the pissers were leftists but you did say the event was "another victory for the left". I suppose people were just trying to extract some sense from a bizarre statement.

One more thing: There are people here threatening violence. It would be very unwise to use one's real name.

Since the face is being published of this moron it should be easy to arrest the culprit and then hand him over to a few veterans for proper treatment in the bush.

And with those comments from "Leftist", we have two more shining examples of the reading comprehension problems I mentioned.

And with his contribution, all 7 of Robert McClelland's regular readers have now commented on this thread.

BTW - I've been threatened with violence, both overt and suggested, in my own comment section and on the blogs of others (see Canadian Cynic). As you may note, it doesn't keep me from signing my name. What's your excuse?

MND:

Ti-Guy is just bitter...no job, no wife, no family, no life...

So he cruises by here once in a while to leave some gratuitous insult, largely due to the fact that he lacks the ability to express coherent thoughts on grownup issues...

Kate said:
"I've been threatened with violence, both overt and suggested, ... it doesn't keep me from signing my name. What's your excuse?"

Bravo Kate. I always use my own name, and should someone wish to take a shot at me; at least I would have the dignity to go down fighting.

Something the bladder challenged offenders which gave rise to this thread have yet to appreciate.

There is nothing wrong with righteous anger, it is what you do with it. Do you let the anger out in constructive criticism or simply vent spleen in a destructive display of loss of control.

I'll ignore the insult. I admit my retort was somewhat insulting, as well. You're an intelligent woman. We're both interested in politics. Why don't we just enjoy debating each other? I will if you will :-)

1) Who the hell is Robert McClelland? Honestly, I had never heard of the guy till I read your post and googled him. Then I read about 3 lines. And I haven't bookmarked him.

2) I have used my name in situations that put me at risk when something I believed in was at stake and when there were good reasons to use my name. But I'm not going to put my name on the internet every time I comment on someone's blog. I think most people would advise very strongly against such a practice. That's why I don't do it here. But, as I say, I have done it and no doubt I'll do it again.

BREAKING:

The stupid leftist guy who pissed on the NWM starts a blog...

http://statuecleaner.blogspot.com/

h/t: Bourque

Quote: Me No Dhimmi: "They teach socialism in the schools". Which is, of course, precisely why the Liberals/NDP are so adamant, (and persistent), about installing an all-encompassing nationwide Day Care system.

All those Jew-hating national socialist Canadian lefties who troll here, and do a lot of typing all over the internet, such as Ti-guy, like to hang out at Zerbisias's blog as well as Robert McClellan's, it's like a home base for them where they can admire each other and pump themselves up. Don't worry about them, they're a powerful force building conservative support.

Canadian Sentinel:

The blogger you mention at the end of his post suggests it is a parody; a poor one at that.

Nemo2 said: "Which is, of course, precisely why the Liberals/NDP are so adamant, (and persistent), about installing an all-encompassing nationwide Day Care system."

Now THAT'S the plain unvarnished truth. I have often opined that the true objective of the LPC National Day Care programme was to close that dangerous gap between 0-6 when the children are not yet exposed to the indoctrination.

Further up in a note to new kid on the block, I provided a quote by John Dewey from the Coulter book. On the same page was this beauty from Lenin himself: "Give me your four-year olds, and in a generation I will build a Socialist state". For Hitler it was "Let me control the textbooks and I wll control the state".

Ah, yes, Hans... I see it now. I read it fast and posted it as "breaking", almost automatically.

I see also that the blog in question had the original post taken down and replaced with those other two.

False alarm. Not the urinator.

Me no Dhimmi, that is precisely why I wrote:

"They must bring socialism to the classroom so that the children can be brainwashed into the unnatural way of thinking, they must build large bureaucracies so that their friends and family can have nice cushy jobs"

Socialism is already in Canada and has taken root here. We are well on our way to becoming commrades if we do not elect the Conservatives into a majority government long enough to correct all that has gone wrong in this country over the last forty years.

I had to drive through Woodbridge today. My father must be rolling in his grave with the number of Italian flags flying around. The same flag that he fought against for six years while stationed in Scotland, France and Italy.

Right Mind : Yes I recall your comment, and spot on. I've had a theory for a long time which is: the general public is not nearly as liberal as the LPC has convinced itself they are. The public I believe is cowed, bewildered, bemused. For that reason I am very confident that Harper will win a majority and a good one having definitively proven to the public that he is a very able man of high integrity and real understanding. I also think he is a very skilled tactician who will build consensus and only do what can be done and at the suitable time. Politics, as they say, is the "art of the possible".

Leftist said to Kate just a couple of hours ago, "You're an intelligent woman. We're both interested in politics. Why don't we just enjoy debating each other? I will if you will :-)"

Nice, Leftist.

I made THREE posts yesterday, directed specifically at you. I'm also intelligent. I'm very interested in politics, and I enjoy debate. So, why no response? I'm still waiting.

I also wrote:

"P.P.S. I agree with CO and all those who say we need to regain authority for what is right and good in this country. However, the Charter--thanks, PET--which enshrined rights and not obligations, has made sure that's not likely to happen any time soon. I'm a teacher: Students'--the worst ones and their entitled parents know all about it--rights trump proper discipline over and over. Administration caves over and over and if they don't, the courts overrule them. It's a dismal situation.

Rudy Guilianni, where are you?"

As a patriotic, non socialist teacher working in gulag-like conditions, I totally agree with the well deserved contempt for public education. snowbunnie, your post was superb! Many thanks.

As I said the Leftie last night, I'm waiting to hear from you. (Still.)

snowbunnie
I agree about the education. The trouble is no one wants to pay for it. Conservatives think government is simply a cost item to be eliminated. I have witnessed it up close in Ontario. The government slashed almost 2 billion from public education and got re-elected. A lot of people talk the talk but don't want to pay the price. They would rather take a short term small tax reduction then tell the government to reinvest it in education or other essentials.
One of the tax cuts was the government telling everyone they had a billion dollars "extra" and were going to give the taxpayers $200 each. It was nauseating because that money was being taken directly out of education and health care.
It is basically the point were I became convinced that the average Conservative was stupid. Now it is happening at the Federal level. Voters are being bought, yet again, with their own money and no one asks,"Aren't we giving up something by shrinking the Federal Budget by so many billions?

The Ontario government slashed a total of 10 billion dollars from the nanny state programs due to the Liberals slashing 10 billion in transfer payments. Even if the transfer payments were not slashed and he made the cuts I would still have voted for Mike Harris over and over and over again. I want the state to have as little to do with my day to day life as possible.

I don't see how we are "being bought" by any government returning our hard earned money back into our pockets when they do not require it. I do see how we are being bought when the Liberal's make promise after promise and never come through until we are about to boot their asses out into the street.

Let me control my money as I will provide for myself better than the socialist state can ever hope to. You may think the average conservative is stupid, but we know all socialists are morons.

You damned fool, rambling on about nothing but money... "pay for it", "cost item to be eliminated", "slashed almost 2 billion", "pay the price", "short term small tax reduction", "reinvest it in education", "tax cuts", "a billion dollars "extra"", "$200 each", "money was being taken directly out".

Then this gem, this dazzling observation:

"It is basically the point were I became convinced that the average Conservative was stupid."

Go read snowbunnie's post again, you're a liar when you say "snowbunnie I agree".

Leftist,

"And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better. It's sad and I don't condone urinating on the monument."

Just wondering if this means you support the soldiers but not the mission? If so, is the only reason that you support the soldiers because they are ignorant, brainwashed drones?

I kinda get the feeling the military (past and present) does not want to be portrayed as victims ... does this mean you will shifting your victim label over to some more willing group?

Nice to see, although you relish trashing the men/women who gave their lives for Canada, you can somehow resist condoning pissing on a memorial to them.

Canadian Sentinel - I really hope I'm wrong, but I see this as a start to a national "piss for attention" contest. Usual suspects.

If this was a photo caption contest - I would submit "Vote NDP"

Right Mind
You have made my point. People like you are destroying the public system. That's why I put my kid in private school. But a lot of parents have to put up with selfish taxpayers who criticise schools and all government institutions while underfunding them so they can never be more than average. A lot of conservative supporters kids are suffering too but apparently they don't know it or don't know why, again, stupid.

I don't need your nanny state imposed on me! My kids were raised going to through the public system with a lot of talks to teachers about giving lessons on academics and not having their political views imposed on my children. I wish that I alone could destroy the public system of anything, but your socialist views of cyphoning the money out of my pocket for your needs has gone on for too long and have gone too far in this country.

Let me worry about my children and you worry about yours. Do not ask me to fund your children and I will do likewise with yours. If you do not understand this unique concept than I am not the one that is "stupid".

Socialism has given us a severe lack of medical doctors and general practitioners, homeless industries and a nanny state where there is no incentive to work or achieve anything. This has gotten us into grave trouble and is becoming worse. Get a grip and realize that socialism does not work here nor anywhere for any reasonable length of time. The rich supporting the poor will only result in all citizens becoming poor as the wealthy cannot sustain the needs of an entire nation. This is basic economics, if you do not understand this than may I ask who is the stupid one?

I agree with Revnant Dream (7:37, July 3) - post an Honour Guard at the Memorial.
Fox News Sunday did a "Power Player of the Week" Segment for Memorial Day, on the head of the Honor Guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. ExposeTheLeft has a copy of the piece here
http://www.exposetheleft.com/2006/05/29/alfred-lanier/

A powerful piece that shows how to properly honour those who gave their lives for our freedoms.

And I would agree with Kate's initial assesment of "another victory for the left". Of course, people DO need to improve their comprehension skills and read the sentence in context with the two sentences preceding it.

Steve, I would suggest that people like YOU, who are proud that you do not use the public system for your children, are equally guilty of destroying the public system.

oops. My apologies.
Musn't. Feed. The. Trolls.

another sean
I would suggest to you that if the public are more interested in tax cuts than quality education you have a responsibility to go get the good education for your child instead of making her a victim of short sighted tax cutting.

Remember, I paid public school taxes and private school fees. I paid double. My focus however, was not on dollars but on the education of my child. I wasn't willing to sacrifice my child's education because of selfish conservatives and then have to listen to them whine about education while pocketing taxes taken from that same education system. I should leave my child at the mercy of those kinds of people? I don't think so.

steve d,

I'm with you on this one. Private school teachers make 85% of what a public school teachers makes. If we cut the public teachers pay by 15% (they would go for this because they are only interested in the kids) where do we put the money to get a quality education for our children?

Note to the fuckwad on the cover of the paper with his dick out: You fucked up sooo bad man. You're gonna be caught in about three days, tops, and then we'll make sure you have a toilet near at hand 24/7 for the next six months. The damn prime minister is looking for you. How much shit are you in when the prime minister is talking about where you took a piss?

You are about to be the guy who gets in the deepest amount of shit for peeing in public in all of history. Right up there with Alexander the great, shithead.

Good luck getting anything but a mc-fuckwad job too, since you'll be forever known as the guy who pissed all over the country on Canada day. You'll wish you were subway jared. You'll idolize him. But now all you'll ever be is scrapyard shithead.

Go figure, Steve is another Socialist that refuses to use the socialist programs. Right up there with Mr. Layton, Mr Chretien and Mr Martin! What does this tell us about the socialist programs? It tells us that the individuals promoting the socialization of the country do not want the horrible results that stem from a nanny state and that they are most likely only socialists because they make their money off of one of the many industries created by social engineering.

Leftist said:

"And of course most of its members [the miitary] joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better."

I posted a response.

This person asked, "Who ARE you people?"

I posted a response.

This person chided Kate. "You're an intelligent woman. We're both interested in politics. Why don't we just enjoy debating each other? I will if you will :-)"

I'm a reasonble facsimile to Kate--hope you don't mind, Kate!--and I posted another response.

What debate, Leftist? At this point, I consider your nasty slur against Canada's military and the hallowed memory of beloved family embers a "drive by shooting". Cowardly and dishonourable. (At this point, you've also proven yourself to be first class a hypocrite.)

Let's debate, Leftist. I'm still waiting.

Make that "members"--though, under the circumstances, "embers" is not a bad pun!

Like Right Mind, I find it rich, indeed, that Rosedale Socialists, the guys that live well and put their kids in private schools, sing the praises of socialism. What they're really saying is "I'm doing just fine, thanks very much, [probably, as RM says, sucking at the nanny-state teat through their government-sponsored or spawned jobs] and because I make so much money, I don't mind being taxed so that others in Canada can have a few crumbs. My tax consultant can always find loopholes, so that after-taxes, my income is still high enough that I can send my kids to private schools. Let the rest of the 'little people' send their kids to the hell hole-schools the Nanny State has created. At least I can ease my conscience that I'm doing 'my part.'"

What a pile of crap. It always amazes me that they can't see the glaring contradictions in touting the Nanny State, yet living themselves a very non-socialist life-style. You want to be a socialist? Go live on the street with "the people" then and see what kind of lives too many people are reduced to in a Nanny State. Come down from your house on the hill, and live, smell, breathe, and suffer with the masses. You could start, if you live in Toronto, on the corner of College and Spadina, or try Jarvis and Gerrared, or just about any corner on Jarvis.

new kid on the block said: "Come down from your house on the hill, and live, smell, breathe, and suffer with the masses".

Reminds me of what used to be said about the Irish......."That the Irish would do ANYTHING for Ireland.....except LIVE there". Likewise Champagne Socialists would, (say they'd), do 'anything' for the hoi polloi.....except cohabit with them.

Although I was as disgusted as the majority of Canadians who read about the disrespectful punks urinating on the National War Memorial, I fail to understand why we allowed a dabbling dilettante, who avoided military service while motorcycling around the Quebec countryside wearing a German army Stahlhelm with an Iron Cross dangling from his neck, to figuratively urinate on the whole country from the office of prime minister. Perhaps if we hadn't done so, today's youth might display more responsibility.

Well said Nemo2 and Western Canadian!

Me No Dhimmi, quoting John Dewey: "You can't make Socialists out of individualists—children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming, where everyone is interdependent."

The worst thing a kid can do in a classroom these days is dissent from the "group think" of the classroom, passed down by the Nanny State via far too many teachers who have bought into the Utopian 'egalitarian' Zeitgeist: If any students/parents have an objection to the gay lifestyle or SSM, grab bags of contraceptives being handed out to grade-seven students in the classroom to "be played with" (to raise students' comfort level with IUDs, the Pill, diaphragms, spermicidal foam, condoms: I kid you not), the revisionist history being taught today, various and sundry groups coming in to talk to students—Natives and Bahai'is on their spirituality, gay groups, women and violence groups, etc., the list goes on and on, they are centred out and are either ridiculed or in some way humiliated. The message is: NO DISSENT. FALL IN, IN LOCKSTEP, OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES.

The public school classroom is no longer a place of genuine learning and debate. It's an indoctrination centre, where your kid had better shut up and agree with the ascendant collectivist ideologies, or suffer the consequences: being shunned, ignored, ridiculed, mocked, called names, deprived of deserving end-of-school awards, all things that I have seen happen to families and their children who dare to think for themselves and question the left/lib/fem/gay status quo.

If the government were to give more money to the educational establishment, it would simply go into higher salaries and perks for the educational bureaucracies, and more social-engineering programs. As I see classrooms increasingly denuded of text books and other resources, increasing numbers of extra-curricular programs are introduced and administrators and teachers seem to be living higher and higher off the hog: High-end vacations at Christmas, during the March break and summer months are de rigeur, and principals wearing designer clothing and driving their Jaguars to school are not uncommon. The glaring anomalies are quite stunning, but entitled bureaucrats seem not to notice.

As for MND's quote from Lenin: "Give me your four-year-olds, and in a generation I will build a Socialist state." That is EXACTLY the thinking of the collectivist government bureaucracies, propelled by the ascendant feminist doctrines of the past 30 years, many members of which have no children of their own. That's why I am death on universal daycare. No individual thinking there, just tiny little cookie-cutter Socialists. Scary.

Apropos of parents’ preventing the State’s attempts to “control” the lives of their children, I recommend the book “Hold On To Your Kids: Why Parents Matter,” by Vancouver psychiatrist Gordon Neufeld and M.D. and sometime journalist Gabor Maté. From the dust jacket: “Something has changed. We can sense it, can feel it, just not find the words for it. Children are not quite the same as we remember being. They seem less likely to take their cues from adults…less afraid of getting into trouble. Parenting, too, seems to have changed. Our parents were more confident, more certain of themselves, and had more impact on us…For many today, parenting does not feel natural…”

With the State’s orchestrated wresting of more and more responsibilities away from parents—universal daycare, after-school programs, in-school programs—no wonder an awful lot of parents today don’t feel that their roles as mothers and fathers is “natural.” Social engineering, at every level of the government bureaucracy, is telling them that they are obsolete, not necessary. Then, with so many of them in the workforce and not at home with their children except for a few hours each morning and night, many of them are convinced that these government programs are a good thing. They are, however, losing their children to what Neufeld calls “peer orientation,” which “undermines family cohesion, sabotages healthy development and fosters an aggressive and premature sexualized youth culture,” all aided and abetted by unruly school classrooms. He continues, “It provides a powerful explanation for schoolyard bullying and youth violence…”

…And quite probably for why drunken youths pee on a revered War Memorial.

We’ve got a lot of re-thinking to do.

PS--Thanks Me No Dhimmi, for the quotes. They're perfect for what this thread is all about. They highlight, in spades, the not-so-trite truism that "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it."

I cried when I read this on nealenews this morning (from The Chronicle Herald, Halifax):

"A lone, un-employed Canadian donned a Maple Leaf-red sweater Tuesday and stood guard under a blistering midday sun by the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier near the National War Memorial.

"Authorities haven’t decided yet how they’ll improve security after the memorial was desecrated on Canada Day, but Don Dawson wasn’t going to wait for them to make up their minds.

"He draped a vintage Canadian Legion flag — a British ensign with a green maple leaf imposed in the centre — over his shoulder and stood rigidly at attention.

"'I got up this morning and asked myself what I could do about this, and I decided to come here out of respect for all the soldiers who died fighting for the freedom of Canada,'" said Dawson, who spent the whole day at the site."

God bless Don Dawson. If I lived in Ottawa, I think I'd be out there today.

new kid on the block: WOW. Nothing to add to that except to guess that David Brown would probably shrink from debatng you, mindful of warnings about getting between a bear and her cubs :).

A few years back I began voicing to myself sentences like: "The Liberals are actually deliberately trying to destroy the family" but thought I was being a bit extreme. No longer. It's all part of a piece. Home schooling illegal in Germany (Nazi holdover), government inspectors interviewing children in their homes in Brussels, parents charged and threatened with jail, UN one-worldism, , gay couples contracted to socially-engineer curriculum and parents prohibited from opting their children out of "sensitive" subject matter, both parents working and struggling to get by month to month in a 50% tax burden economy, the proposed UK childrens' index (spying on parents; outright Maoism).

Here's the conclusion I came to: tbe Berlin Wall may have fallen in 1989, the Soviet Union may have collapsed, but our false sense of victory prevented us from rooting out Marxist/Maoist thinking which is, if anything, stronger than ever. As someone pointed out somewhere recently, we never managed to kill off marxism which continues to morph into newer fuzzy-warm forms like environmentalism and nationalized child care.

You are absolutely correct: public school classrooms no longer resemble anything like places of learning. They are re-education camps, collectivist boot camps.

We need a voucher system so that non-public sector workers (who are less able to double-pay for their childrens' education)can have their children educated instead of indoctrinated. We also need to shut down government certification of teachers and open up the profession to able, learned people who can't stomach the complete waste of time involved in teacher training programmes.

this man is a hero.

Me No Dhimmi,

Which way did the Berlin Wall fall? Was it the destruction of Communism or was it the destruction of Capitalism due to the virus like spread of Socialism?

We are too late to do anything about the educational system in the short term. We need to have conservative governments in place, throughout the country, with majorities for many years to undo all of the damage caused by the heads of the socialist industries and the various Liberal and NDP governments. I would guess that the damage has gone so far that it is virtually impossible to completely correct it in our lifetime.

The schooling of our children to indoctrinate their ideologies is in place.

The development of the social engineering network industries is almost complete.

They now have a system where it is almost impossible to speak your mind on any politically correct subject honestly.

All that is left is the completion of the above and to have the proper leader put into place. Once this is completed we will be standing in line for toilet paper, have large portions of our society unable to feed or clothe themselves and will be alienated from any of our traditional allies.

I can't believe that some of you are only waking up to this now when it is almost too late?

Steve D.

There are several reasons why our education system is failing. Funding is not even close.

Ontario spends more per student than any other province in Canada.

One problem is that the Public system has no money and the Catholic system is building the Taj Mahal on every corner because they have all the money - but few students.

Another problem is half the budget is going to out-of-classroom "educrats" in the school boards that Harris didn't scrap (the best thing he could have done but didn't.) Think of your bank duplicating it's head office into every little town in Canada and think of how high your service charges would be. I'm under the impression that the teaching of math and Shakespeare are not location specific so duplicating boards all over the place is a damn waste of money - that would be better spent in the classroom.

Another problem is that the Ontario Teachers have the second richest pension plan in Canada (next to the federal parliamentarians.) This eats up huge parts of the budget. They are also very well paid.

And lastly, the commie bureaucrats at the school boards have written up a curriculum and policy set that teaches the kids nothing but PC dogma and graduates illiterates while instilling "self-esteem" which equates to narcissism and entitlement. All it does is train illiterate, ignorant, socialists.

Compare Ontario's expensive system (where the boards are rich and individual schools have no text books) with Alberta's system (with no boards.) Alberta's kids are doing great. Ontario is sh**ing the bed. But the Ontario kids know all about sensitivity and earth day!!!

nktb:

WOW. you certainly connected the dots that time.

I might add back in january here in RobertJville I finally got to talk to one of the bd of ed chieftans on some issues including curiculla.

do you include courses I enquired, on what on earth to do with an infant whose been crying non stop for the last 2 hours? what do you do? do these reproduction-aged schoolers have a clue how to deal with a howling baby other than bashing their brains in?

also, has anyone on THIS education system which I went thru 40 years ago, get a titch of a hint on the enormously important aspects of buying a house? financing sources, budgeting, closing costs, avoiding lemons, getting max bargaining advantage as a first time buyer (unconditional offer right from the start. that only happens first time out) etc etc etc?

same thing with buying a car. the 2nd biggest outlay in avg person's life.

I didnt get ANY instruction on that, checking if mechanic's liens exist on a prospective unit for example. nothing. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO HELP WITH PRACTICAL DAY TO DAY STUFF.

instead I got 'iambic pentameter' droning on for years.

the response was wishy washy and I still have my suspicions. backed up by the fact the youngest son of my best friend is currently in gr 11 and describes events and conditions in the belly of the beast in uncomplementary terms.

also there was a HUGE scandal when I was living in halton region about the ornate bd of ed headquarters with its elaborate fountain and perfectly manicured lawn and unending perks for the brass. lots of money, no priorities.

right mind asked:
Which way did the Berlin Wall fall? Was it the destruction of Communism or was it the destruction of Capitalism due to the virus like spread of Socialism?

THAT is a profound question! Not sure I have what it takes to answer it. But fiddling around the edges I'd say we certainly didn't take from it the lesson of free markets and limited government.

Come to think of it: one of the most shocking stats I ever encountered was that even after Reagan and Thatcher (the cruel "slashers" and "burners") government as a percentage of GDP had only shrunk by a tiny fraction of one percent.

Just as PET DID NOT GET IT, this punk will never see the irony in his actions. He is free to piss on the dead soldiers. DEAD because they fought for the HIS f-ing freedom. As previous posters have pointed out Trudeau started all the disrespect decades ago. The majority of Canadians saw the treasion for what it was, but not the media. On the otherhand I now believe the media, along with the left, have a "plan". Break down our free society and have government rule our lives. Communism recently failed miserably and now they are desparate, a la Kyoto.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Internet will save our freedom.

But a far more serious freedom busting organization is trying to gain control of world politics, AS WE SPEAK. The United Nations and the likes of Maurice Strong, Al Gore, Koffi Annan, ect. Look up the agenda of ONE WORLD GOVERNANCE and you will see the weight of the situation.

Me No Dhimmi, your comment to one of my posts, "Nothing to add to that except to guess that David Brown would probably shrink from debatng you, mindful of warnings about getting between a bear and her cubs :)," is right on the money! Me No Dummy.

I'm extremely angry about what's been going on, largely because of how it's affecting our kids (not just mine, though SOCIALISTS, FEMINISTS, ETC., DON'T YOU EVER TRY TO GET TO THEM, BECAUSE IF I'M ANYWHERE NEAR, WHICH I USUALLY AM, YOU'RE IN BBIIGG TROUBLE!! but ALL of our kids).

All a vulnerable child has to protect him/her is, with any luck, a grown up who's crazy about him or her and is willing to protect him/her from all the pitfalls and hucksters 'out there.' If no one's home, so to speak, kids are completely at the mercy of anyone or any system that wants to exploit them. 'Used to be that the values in the home were shared by educators, but not anymore.

I've been aware of this for about 30 years, but because most people didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I cautioned them about what was happening at the government level and in our schools (because they thought and/or opined that I was being just a bit extreme, wasn't I?) they would avoid these topics with me in any subsequent encounters.

What is happening to our children's education and to their minds, bodies, and souls as a direct result of socialist and libertarian indoctrination borders on criminal. And, sadly, I am somewhat inclined to agree with Right Mind when s/he says, "the damage has gone so far that it is virtually impossible to completely correct it in our lifetime." There's just been too many complacent and comfortable Canadians to wo/man the ramparts--a cold and lonely place, I can tell, you from my many years on the watch tower.

Not even going to read the rest, because George wins this thread hands down with this gem.

"As for sending this creep to Afghanistan--I suggest instead that we register all penises in Canada--should only cost about $2M--then we wouldn't need pictures of their faces to see who did it--we would have them by the --you know--if only one monument is saved it would be worth it!"

Bravo, George, bravo!

An act of stupidty has finaly awoke this country to the lack of respect we aford our veterans...
To all you lefties that found no harm in this disgusting act remember the next time you pull up behind that guy that has a veteran's plate to read the bumper sticker he or she most likely has,
Thank A Vet.

All three "pissants" have been identified.

h/t Nealenews

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060705/war_memorial_060705/20060705?hub=TopStories

Two youth offenders from Ottawa, and one 23 year old from Montreal.

We will see what appropriate community service is meted out.

Echo chamber: Leftist, the debater (sic), where are you?

NKOTB: absolutely on the money re what's happening in the public school system. 'Sad thing is Harris made it even WORSE for a number of reasons: Vast, shallow curriculum, which means the basics CANNOT be taught and, therefore, learned to mastery, the teachers are scrambling so fast to cover all the non-essentials. (Literacy specialists are condemned to teach their 3 and 4 years behind students government imposed exercise lessons, health, drama, social studies and science AND "integrate" students into the regular stream, even when they're far from ready. There's almost no time left for what they really need. Oh ya, and the literacy specialist is also having to deal with seriously disruptive autistic students and other behaviour anomalies, with no added help. Literacy? What's that? This was all mandated by the Harris changes. His government obviously had no one but lackies advise them.)

Harris also left in place all the PC garbage. Text books are full of anti-family, anti-Western, anti-Christian propaganda. Most teachers just go along with it. Those who need the job--what other kind of sda supporter would teach in the public system?!--generally do as much damage control in their classes as possible but keep their heads down re critiquing the PC agenda.

As NKOTB pointed out, there's something fundamentally very different about kids today: I've seen the change from front row, center and it's SCARY. In general kids are not well informed, they want push-button lives with little reflection--what's THAT?--or hard work. Authority? They have a hard time recognizing it, though, if they're lucky enough to encounter an adult who actually knows how to exercise it, they'll respond. The kids are "cool" and expect grownups to prove themselves--not the other way around. If there's a disagreemant between teacher and child--usually the worst kind--the teacher is now "guilty" until he/she manages to establish his/her innocence. Most of the bureacracies go along with this travesty. (Actually, the bureaucracies have SET UP this travesty.)

BTW, the large gulag--I mean board--in which I teach has all kinds of rubrics for teachers, which are--often brutally, unjustly, and underhandedly--enforced. Administration? There are absolutely no protocols for holding them to account. The gross incompetence and even dereliction of duty that very regularly goes on--more often than competent, pro-active leadership, in my experience--is a scandal. The teacher's union, which is utterly non pro-active and not even competent in a reactive way, moves like molasses in January. (Administration and union types make the VERY BIG bucks.) And things stay just the same: rotten.

It's not only a damn shame for our kids: It's going to be the death--literally--of our heretofore free society. The jerk who desecrated the War Memorial's just the shallow end of the deluge to come. I'm not making this up. Here. In Canada.

It is said: "Those who forget their history, are doomed to repeat it!!"

Beware Canada, the HUNS are upon you!!

Los zum Kaiser Schlacht!!

well this just in: the ottawa cops know who the piss artistes are. 2 yout's (take THAT young offenders act supporters!) and a 23 yr old who turned himself in before less principled groups found him.

now lets see what happens in the epicentre of namby pamby liberalism.

Well, for starters, Robert J, I saw Ian Hanimansing on CBC news earlier this evening, announcing that "les pisseurs" were now known. He mentioned the two 17-year-olds, whose names cannot be reported, and the one 23-year-old, whose name can be reported but the CBC declined to. What's that about?

Me No Dhimmi was puzzled by my statement that the war dead in my family would find it funny that someone pissed on the damn war memorial. I don't know how I can explain to him why. Maybe a childhood as an army brat brought me too close to the actual people who did the fighting and dying. They are an irreverent lot.

I'm a lifelong Buhddist and I laughed out loud when I heard the Taliban had blown up the giant buhddas carved in the cliff, again how can I explain?

All I can come up with is my original observation:

"don't mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon.

PenGun

As I have just returned from a few days in France which took me around Ypres, Courcelette, Passchendaele, the Somme, Beaumont-Hamel and Vimy Ridge inter alia, I offer a couple of observations:

1. The urinating little bastards should spend their "community service" memorizing the names of every Canadian and Newfoundland soldier buried in France. When they've done that, they can go on and memorize the names of every British, Imperial, French, Belgian, American and other Allied soldier buried in France. They can finish up by memorizing the names of every poor bloody German soldier buried there too.

2. The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier DESERVES a proper honour guard. A real guard of at least two business-like Royals, Picklies or Vandoos, fresh from Kandahar, backed up by overwatch from a very large RCMP constable 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Italy manages to do this for its unknown soldier, as do many, many other countries. The fact that Canada seems incapable of this speaks volumes about our contemptible parsimoniousness.

3. Dr Dawg, you frequently offer some cogent left-liberal balance to what are often pretty scatty comments in this site.

Not this time though.

Portapotties?

Give me a break.

There is some research that shows that the more extreme conservatives were badly socialized by their school experience. They are the people the popular kids picked on and developed a fearful take on society from this experience. This is what makes then so bitter and mean.

I'd say this little outpost of happiness suppports that research rather well.

PenGun
Do What Now ??? ... Standards and Practices !

Statement: "extreme conservatives"

Meaning: Any that is more right wing than Cindy Sheehan.

Statement: "badly socialized"

Meaning: Did not allow the socialist teachings to penetrate their gray matter and are able to hold logical thoughts.

Statement: "They are the people the popular kids picked on and developed a fearful take on society from this experience."

Meaning: Someone pissed on the war memorial and that is ok, but what do you think about the Washington think tanks that are planning to rule the world by laying pipelines across Afghanistan and steal all the oil from Iraq. Or that they want to blow us all up and are spying on us all using infra-red technologies. All of their friends are the ones that blew up the twin towers and did you know they used drones to crash into the towers and the pentagon and the people are really living in area 54?

(Nope, the left are NOT PARANOID)

Statement: "This is what makes then so bitter and mean."

Meaning: How can they suggest that a kid pissing on a war memorial be punished? They didn't get enough by punishing those nice gentlemen in Iraq and Afghanistan that blew up those towers? Didn't they get enough by destroying that poor Hitler dude?

Statement: "I'd say this little outpost of happiness supports that research rather well."

Meaning: I have no way to deny everything that the right has stated on this page so I will try, and fail, to come off as being somewhat intelligent. There is not really any research, but if I pretend there is maybe the other lefty trolls that come here will believe me as they also have an extremely low I.Q.

Will the other RobC please stop posting here under my monniker!!! I always post my url as well and this dude has not... even though I would have typed similar comments...

Methinks there is a need to register people that comment?

PenGun says, "There is some research that shows . . ." How authoritative. (I'm sure you can do better than that.)

FYI, I don't fit your profile in ANY way. Any other unsubstantiated ideas?

PenGun, please go back to your sandbox, dear.

Anybody wonder why al queida & or bin laden
hasn't been blamed yet?

Honey ... this is my sandbox ;). Did your Google not find it for you? It was a discusion on .. gasp .. CBC by some shrinks ... raving commies no doubt.

It struck me that this theory explained so much.

For those who are challenged by my quote "don't mistake the finger pointing at the moon for the moon" it simply means that the memorials and staues are symbols. They are symbolic of larger truths. Revencing the symbols is in some ways the height of stupidity. Hence the Zen master's admonition, and possibly my laughing at the Taliban.

PenGun

PenGun - If you really believe that giving reverence to symbols--that's why we (excluding you, I guess, like some of my primary age students) stand to attention during the singing of the national anthem --is stupid, all I can say is, "Kyrie eleison". (Google that, weakspeaker.)

Sweetheart, I sing it in french actually. I do stand to sing as it opens the chest.

I am an army brat. Born in England just after the war. I grew up on army bases all over the world. My family has been killing and dying for the crown for over 600 years that we can document.

You have little to teach me baby. It is fear you lot live on and I am not afraid. Your god scares me not at all, as a follower of the buhdda I am not subject to gods.

PenGun

Okay, I am atheist so I guess I am even better than you as I do not follow the words of any man nor God?

You are still a bumbling idiot no matter if you are a buddhist, atheist or roman catholic. It is easy to state "My family has been killing and dying for the crown for over 600 years that we can document" on the Internet where you can hide typing away in your mommies basement at the ripe old age of 60(?). Your words do not impress me nor anyone else here!

Yup 60, I get my pension this year. This is just another wingnut blog with a wingnut crowd of followers, you are a dime a dozen.

Google my name if you want. I've been trying to talk sense to you people for a long time. The first page will take you to my website I have referenced above. About the third page you'll start to see what I've beeen up to ... in my momies basement ;).

Bye I'll leave you in ... well peace would be stretching it.

PenGun