The stupid prick in the picture looks like he needs a good caning to help him sober up.

Surprised they didn't blame Bush or the "evil" Americans on this 'youts' disgusting behaviour.

They, the idiots, should be made to clean the monument - when they sober up.

I thought public urination was against the law?
Was the last time I lived in Ontario.
I'm becoming so jaded I expect this guy to file a human rights abuse claim.... sigh.

Would the war dead be resurrected; they would be showing the 'pissants' the pointy end of a bayonet or a bullet creasing their cranium.

Given the pissants have no self-respect; they only serve to disgrace themselves.

You show your thankfulness to those who die on behalf of their country, defending its freedoms, by pissing on their graves!?! All the while you have troops in the field, taking the occasional bullet, IED, or RPG in Afghanistan.

I'm glad these bastions of moral genius have got their priorities all worked out. Philistines one and all. Their bladders seem to be functioning, but the space between their ears indicates a profound vacuum.

This is utterly disgusting but not unexpected. After 13 years of decimating and denigrating the Military why should we expect anything else?
Sadly this will not be treated as a crime--but can you imagine what would have happened to him if he had pulled the same stunt at a Holacaust memorial or a Mosque? Only in Canada would this despicable person get away with this. After all, these soldiers fought and died for the freedom this ignoramus pi**es on.
I thought this was against the law--no matter the target--they have his picture--why is he still free?????

Draft the bastards and send em to Afghanistan.

I'm all for arresting or "otherwise dealing with" these yahoos...

This guy is just lucky he wasn't photographed urinating on a mosque.

No Rick, our soldiers would never urinate on any war memorial, these scumbags wouldn't ever qualify for the professionalism that our forces display.

I say send them to Saudi Arabia for a summer vacation give them a taste of 'reality' that no tv show would dare produce.

I say sick that Prime Minister of yours they call what? Captain Canada. Yeah, him.

He'll tell these punks off.

Things like this are enough to make me rather misty-eyed and nostalgic for the days of public branding and floggings in the town square.

Post all the faces of the young men everywhere, on the front pages of all the national newspapers, on TV, online, and rewards for anyone who can identify them.

Then lock the jerks up for a week or two, and sign them up for "sensitivity training" with a couple of veterans for their parole.

I'd like to see the PMO step up to the plate on this one with funding for guard staff ASAP.

Rick said: "send em to Afghanistan"

Trouble is these hooligans can't find their brains, can barely hold or find their members, and certainly couldn't aim a rifle.

If you gave them a gun they might just shoot themselves, earning themselves instead of a medal of distinction a Darwin Award instead.

This would be genetic natural self selection.

An Utter Disgracefull & Disrespectfull Act:
Our countries continous lack of respect for those who served & those that gave the ultimate sacrifice goes right to our lack of education in how the men & women have served & still serve their country. Iam a firm believer that this education must start at the top & that is we should be reconizing the 11thday of the 11thmonth as a national day of mourning & NO STORES OPEN.(currently only a few provinces) Why is it that only government workers & some industry where as it was negotiated in the contract that it is a day off? I attend our local ceremony every year(I take it as a day off my holiday's) & i watch every year the numbers of vets diminishing & the crowds are also diminishing.
If this direspectfull hooligan was ever cought he would only get a slap on the wrist anyways thanks to the liberals hug a thug theories.
I can only hope since the recent actions of PM Harper right from restoring the proper proticol of the flag to the spending announcements that we finaly have a PM that will change Canadians veiws of past & present Veteran's.

Josef in Am. the Captain Canada Pm was the guy we just got rid of They also called him Mr.Dithers, the new PM is Mr.Decisive, gets things done.

Settle down. There is no indication that this was deliberately done in order to show disrespect. The downtown is completely choked during C-Day. There's literally no place to go, in both senses of the word. It was some drunken yahoos looking for a place to pee, not people making political statements. Post Port-O-Potties, not police officers. Problem solved.

Why do they watch the fireworks if they don't care about Canada? How could Canadians put on fireworks if it weren't for the defense of Canada up until now?

Do they think once-a-year fireworks can take the place of all-year-every-year standing-on-guard firepower? If so, they have no idea how quickly they would be living bleak grey lives under a totalitarian state with no fireworks at all.

Maybe we should cancel fireworks until they can sober up and show some respect.

Kate,

you are letting your feelings for the left swap over a 63-year old retired major of the Dental Corps who took digital pictures instead of wading into a bunch of drunken yahoos and straightening them out with "closed fists."

He could have done so and have gone out in a blaze of glory. But putting this picture on front pages was a far more effective way of solving this problem once and for all.

Do blame the left if you must, but change the "Today they take digital photos" part of your post.

I sincerely doubt that these guys are leftists. They're drunken idiots. And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better. It's sad and I don't condone urinating on the monument.

Dr. Dawg. Your comment and solution does not suprise me. It is always esier to place the blame anywhere but on the asshole who does the crime.

I am not surprised,with all the emotional responses,no one has bothered to mention the real cause...rampant alcohol use by our youth.If these people were f*cked up on weed,ecstacy or cocaine instead,you'd be screeming about the evils of drugs.But no,we accept the untold suffering and carnage created by alcohol abuse,after all,we've been told it is acceptable,it is even advertised in our society.
Where are the anti-drug zealots when this drug DAILY raises it's ugly head? Politically correct hypocrates....you don't see sober youths pissing on our memorials.

A truly sad display but does it really surprise anyone? From pierre the pig's values to pre Harper does that type of behavior really surprise you? Only recently have I started to spell Country with an o. Hopefully Harper will keep my spelling on track and give us all back a country and a country with values that can be respected.

Well, seeing as how we can't draft them and send them into a war zone, I think the least we can do is beat them to a pulp and "relieve" ourselves on their person!!
What have we got to look forward to or how can we take solace in knowing that these punks will be the leaders of tomorrow?!
Nothing to do and all day to do it in makes for a rotted, twisted mind. The likes of which have been demonstrated by these irresponsible jerks !
A true shame and a direct reflection of how they were raised !

Booze or drug abuse is no justifcation for this kind of action. Why do people continuley to try to deflect the blame away from these clowns.

so if the police can't find the manpower to protect this natinal monument on "party days" why don't we sue the Grens & the GGFg troops who are in Ottawa all summer'"standing guard" over at the GG's house.

Put a couple of platoons around the monument, put up some simpek fencingh and light the place up . . . then asshats like the one in the photo could be "educated" if they chose to desecrate such a national monument.

Wouldn't cost a penney . . . no overtime for soldiers and the fencing lights are common military stores.

Someone in Ottawa should ID that moron so we can get his name and address published. Maybe he'd think twice if he found himslef being honored as the national dildo of the year.

I got a feeling this story is far from over.

somebody is going to make some phone calls and act behind the scenes. unbelieveable disrespect.

and the social engineering leftists excuse it all with the great mantra 'they wuz drunks at the times sose they arentsk responsibles for dere actshuns'

RobC,nice,typically emotional rah,rah post.NOBODY is saying they should NOT be held accountable,I just pointed out the blatant hypocrasy of our current drug culture and the role it played here!
Please,get your head out of the sand and THINK before you type!Alcohol abuse by our youth is indeed rampant,and causes far more damage and heartbreak in our society than wet monuments.Or are you the only Canadian left who has not had their life'touched'by a drunken driver?

Maybe you could consider some steps to keep these things from occurring in the first place,instead of pointlessly demanding blood after the fact,when you know damn well this society will NOT mete out adequate justice...

There is no exuse for public drunkeness, and never mind if there are no places to go have a leak, then either find a place or piss your damm pants it is still an act of disrespect to desicreat any memorial site.

Canandian Observer> As a recovering alcoholic I don't need your "holier than thou" bullshit about how it affects everyone. Alcoholism is not an illness it is a weakness.Been there done that. I am still accepting the concequences of my stupidity.

This is the first time I have really looked at the comments on this site. I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence. Who are you people??

This is the first time I have really looked at the comments on this site. I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence. Who are you people??

We are the pissed off patiots who are sick of what the left has done to denigrate our society.

In short, we are your antithesis leftie!

A nauseating sense of entitlement has become entrenched in modern society. Just as these hooligans care nothing for the sacrifice of the servicemen whose lives protected their freedom, most beneficiaries of the welfare state care nothing for the financial burden imposed on taxpayers to support them. Those who decry subsidy of sloth, ignorance, and depravity are lambasted as greedy racist haters.

In short, we are your antithesis leftie!

Well, without getting all binary about it, I suppose you're right. I for one want to prevent crime; others here simply want to punish it. Left versus Right sensibilities, in a nutshell.

RobC,I see with your personal experience,you should be the first to agree with the hypocracy of alcohol being readily available to our youth.
And,sorry,but being an alcoholic does not give YOU the'holier than thou'right to talk as if you are the ONLY one with a valid opinion on the evils of alcohol in our society.
Sincerely,I wish you the best and hope you ultimately prevail over your'weakness'!

The outrage is more than justified over this.

The leftie response is typically lame or loopy - 'big deal', 'so what', 'where else were the drunks supposed to 'relieve' themselves, boo hoo'.

The police response was also typical - 'what could we do?', 'crowd too big to handle', 'no can do'. In other words, useless.

Next time they should rope the memorial off as a 'keep out' zone and post a military contingent nearby to 'enforce' it.

DR.D: You want to prevent these acts ans i take it from what you have posted you live in the Ottawa area. So instead of talking, then walk the talk & support the groups that have been asking for several years for guards to be posted. The R.C.Legion has been asking for guards to be posted for several years now & we also state that it should not even be neccessary, and they also noted that hooligans had been observed last year pouring beer all over the Memorial. Acts of hooliganism, vandalism, desicretion or whatever should not be slugded off, this is a national Memorial site.
So therefor get off the horse if you want to prevent these actions in further & do something about it.

Dawg: "I for one want to prevent crime; others here simply want to punish it."

You're being sanctimonius as well as obtuse. It isn't either/or - it's both. We all want to prevent crime. When that fails crime should be punished. This was a crime.

Leftist said:
"I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence. Who are you people??"

Frankly I found your referece to Canadians fighting and dying for the "American Empire" quite nasty. You also mentioned fighting and dying for the "British Empire". That's nasty too.

For "American Empire"? NO. Against, global expansionary islamofascism.
For "British Empire"? NO. Against, global expansionary naziism, then global expansionary communism.

Who are YOU, and why are YOU now figurately pissing on the graves of dead soldiers?

Your blog de plume is "Leftist". You mustn't lecture about "nastiness and threats of violence". The left caused about 100,000,000 deaths in the 20th century seeking utopia -- breaking eggs while making no omeletes.

I would describe your post as moral narcissism.

Crime is prevented in nearly all cases where the price is greater than the benefit of the crime.

crime and punishment, crime and punishment
goes together like a horse hand carriagement
you can't have one with out the other.

Dawg would prefer we assign a social worker to each offender to shadow them like a guardian angel who can try to reason for them at each potential offence. This is called a job-creation opportunity in Ottawa.

New York City got cleaned up and made to be a citizen friendly, safe, crime-free city by throwing all offenders in jail for a long stretch. It worked and everyone is happy except the offenders.

However, this is unacceptable on the Canadian left because they 'feel' that the offenders should be happy too.

Such caring ...

"All things in moderation" No I don't have the ONLY valid opinion I have MY opinion. In Calgary, the Center Street Bridge is available for jumpers but one would think that a responsible decision for a person would be not to use it for that purpose. Availablility, or unavailibility has nothing to do with accepting responsibility for ones personal choices or actions.

There is no record of them pissing on monuments of any sort when the Lieberals were in power. Now that the Conservatives are in...well the evidence is that...apparently anything goes.

Dr Dawg,do not despair,I for one noticed you at least offered a plausible partial solution...people here today seem mainly to want to vent and demand someone's head(of course,the little pr*cks should be punished),but it is all hot air with our current(lack of)justice system.
You saw the reaction I got when I tried to expand the boundaries of the discussion...
If this is how a cross section of conservatives honestly feel about a Canada wide problem,well,now I'm depressed because it has been left to us(by liberalism)to solve this degeneration of responsibility in our society.

JR,I applaud you also for offering some plausible solutions,however,do we post guards across Canada to keep drunken youths from dessicrating our churches,monuments,graves,etc.?
I submit we MUST be more pro-active in instilling MORALS in our youth and make at least SOME effort to make alcohol difficult for them to get.
Again,alcohol is NOT an excuse for these little sh*ts actions,but it is certainly a MAJOR catalyst.

The utter lack of respect and empathy for others combined with alcohol abuse are what we should be working on solutions for today...

Steve,

By that logic, you are blaming Stephen Harper for the pissing??

That is perfect Lib-logic

CO, I certainly agree that more respect and better behaviour need to be instilled in our youth. But that's a long term project and given that the 'progressives' have taken over most of the school system I don't hold out much hope for its success - at least any time soon. Meanwhile.....

John
Just pointing out the obvious. Pissing was never a problem...until now. Probably just a coincidence. You know, Harper's in power, people start pissing on monuments. Just a coincidence. Now if it were Lieberals in power we would know the cause.

steved--no one had to piss on a Monument to our soldiers while the Liberals were in power--the Liberals did that for them!
As for sending this creep to Afghanistan--I suggest instead that we register all penises in Canada--should only cost about $2M--then we wouldn't need pictures of their faces to see who did it--we would have them by the --you know--if only one monument is saved it would be worth it!

"Lest we forget!"

It seems that the left have forgotten! Reading this thread as well as some history books we see the left were against Hitler's expansionism then and are against our counter-attack on the terrorist plots that surround us now. In my personal opinion they are more going to war than thet are of becoming Nazi's or having their religion changed at the barrel of a gun. They should thank their lucky stars there are Conservatives around that will save their sorry asses and allow them to continue to preach their fear of war(dying)!

"I sincerely doubt that these guys are leftists. They're drunken idiots. And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better. It's sad and I don't condone urinating on the monument."

This is an example of one that is afraid to die for his rights or the rights of his pathetic (future) family. We can only hope that this guys kids rebel against anything he stands for and they proudly state to their father "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it!"

I sometimes wonder if these twits ever look up what happened to those in the former U.S.S.R. and the People's Republic of China when they spoke out of turn or rebelled against the state.

steve d.

The drunken sots were how old? About 18? By your logic we should note that they learned most of their manners under a Liberal regime. Just a coincidence? You be the judge.

JR,..aha!..someone gets it!
We need to somehow,start cleaning this'moral mess'ASAP!In the meantime,how about we lobby for tougher sentences(based on ALREADY existing laws)from our'pussified'judges?
Even a 5 yr old will behave when they understand boundaries and swift consequences.
Also,we need to better control access to booze by our youth,I would be open to any constructive ideas as we have already dug ourselves a deep hole with this drug...

Oh,and John,don't worry about trolls,ET will be along any minute to save the day!

Sorry my post should have read:

"Reading this thread as well as some history books we see the left were against our dealing with Hitler's expansionism then and are against our counter-attack on the terrorist plots that surround us now."

Interesting.

I see no outrage over the rape and murder of a 15-year old Iraqi girl and her family (note: there is a link to the 2 US soldiers abducted and mutilated recently which the vacuous blog author has also conveniently missed) by US soldiers, but lot of chest thumping vituperation over the meaningless actions of a bunch of drunks (hint: drunks do stupid things including killing people while driving intoxicated; urinating on a memorial is just about the most harmless thing they could have done).

Fascinating what a shrivelled heart and a constricted sense of fairness will or will not produce.

This is the first time I have really looked at the comments on this site. I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence. Who are you people??

Who are you, to ask?

Canadian Observer said:
If this is how a cross section of conservatives honestly feel about a Canada wide problem,well,now I'm depressed because it has been left to us(by liberalism)to solve this degeneration of responsibility in our society.

This my good man/woman is a veritable howler.

Be clear, this kind of behaviour is the perfectly predictable result of decades of liberalism which tried to substitute self esteem on a platter for high expectations and self discipline.

The very meat and potatoes of contemporary liberalism is personal irresponsibility. All pathology is excused by trumped up causes beyond the ken and control of individual human beings.

Guilliani did not bring about that truly epic reduction in the NYC crime rate by messages of sweetness and light on billboards. He did it via the now famous "broken window" method. Look after the smaller stuff, and the big stuff will follow. Think of the turnstile jumpers and the taxi horns which have been silenced.

Read Dr Dawg (is he a psychologist?) and note his distaste for punishment. The threat of police power is the only thing that maintains that very thin veneer called civilization.

Nice diversion anon,I don't see you crying over the dozens of Iraqi men,women and children TERRORISTS kill EVERY week.HYPOCRATE!
BTW,if these kids pissed on Trudeau's grave,you'd probably be screaming bloody murder yourself!Thus,the consequences of having a shrivelled brain and NO sense of fairness...

The threat of police power is the only thing that maintains that very thin veneer called civilization.

Err...calling all anti-statists to the board! Pronto!

They may have learned their manners under the Liberals but they never felt so free to express themselves as they do under Harper. He should feel proud.

Right Mind

Learn your history. The Right was very comfortable with Hilter in the 30's. It was up to the Left to go to Spain and try to stop Fascism there before it could grow into the cancer it became. Where were the Right?
When the battles are for real, genuine causes the Left usually respond first.

Were the authorities to fence off the monument to prevent a urinary repeat, the lefties would scream that the Harper government is preventing Canadians from honoring their war dead by forcibly restricting access.........

steve.d: And here I thought the left went to Spain to promote Communism and ensure it would grow into the cancer it became...

Canadian Observer scratches: "Nice diversion anon,I don't see you crying over the dozens of Iraqi men,women and children TERRORISTS kill EVERY week.HYPOCRATE!"

First, it is spelled "hypocrite". If you are really mad, try "hyppocrite".

Second, US soldiers are there to protect the innocent from the terrorists. Most of them do just that - when some don't, you would think a prolific blog like this one would take a few minutes to write about it. Terrorists are supposed to kill innocent civilians - there is nothing newsworthy when that happens.

Understand the difference?

Change your alias to Stupid Observer. That way, you will not dishonor Canada.

MND,I recommend you reread my posts(and your chosen quote),as I believe in your haste to attack someone,you completely f*cked up my message..
Can I not even question my fellow conservatives attitudes without being labelled a laughable leftie?You call this free speech?
You made the exact same argument I did,except I offered a LONG TERM solution alongside the desparate need for clear and consistent punishment for crimes!I was ALSO blaming the libs for the mess they have left us cons to solve...I await your apology....

LEFT -RIGHT. For Chrissake, steve d., drop the left-right fantasy will you. Fascism and Communism are two forms of socialism, the former right socialism (state control) the latter left socialism (state ownership). The leftist idealist dupes who went off to save communism from fascism simply didn't yet know what communism was, which was: THE SAME THING, with only superficial differences.

Let's not chase our tails on this anymore, please! You don't understand this stuff, trust me.

anon,I apologize for making you upset,of course you are 100% right and I am stupid...will tend to changing my handle immediately!...if I can figure out how...

Dam, and i thot that myself and my pals were pretty racy in our younger days!
The worst we ever did was have contests to see who could make the highest mark on hydro poles.
Apologies (very belated) to Ontario Hydro.

Leftist: "I sincerely doubt that these guys are leftists. They're drunken idiots. And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better. It's sad and I don't condone urinating on the monument."

Right Mind: This is an example of one that is afraid to die for his rights or the rights of his pathetic (future) family. We can only hope that this guys kids rebel against anything he stands for and they proudly state to their father "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it!"

Well I won't comment on your assumptions about my gender and family situation but why do you assume that there is nothing I would die for? It seems that I wouldn't die for the things you think people should die for. That doesn't mean there is nothing I would die for. Elementary Logic.

Right Mind: I sometimes wonder if these twits ever look up what happened to those in the former U.S.S.R. and the People's Republic of China when they spoke out of turn or rebelled against the state.

I've read a good deal of history and I continue to read a good deal of history and I'm not sure what your point is here since regimes of all political stripes have suppressed dissent. But I am somewhat alarmed by what people on this board apparently would like to do to people who say or do things they don't like.

Why all these personal insults rather than discussion of the issues?

What do Hitler, Facist, communist, spain, Iraq left vs right, Pm Harper, Trudeau, liberal's, Conservatives, Have to do with Pissing On A National Memorial to the Unknown Soldier, Gawd the only one you people have'nt mentioned is the ndp. Stick to the subject the Article has now made National News. Canadian's are outraged regardless if you are left or right it's a GD Disgrace!!!

Canadian Observer: Well, as requested, I re-read your posts. I notice you admit a need for punishment but you also cite Dr Dawg's partial solution vis a vis the provision of more public potties. Wonder what Dawg thinks is the cause of the massive amounts of public graffiti? A lack of paint and paper? Heh, maybe we should erect blank billboards and boxes of spray paint in each city block!

I probably got your confusing message a bit garbled but I also thought you went off on a tangent about the "hypocrisy" vs a vis alcohol and drugs in our society, which is a valid observation, but not germane to the issue at hand which is: people are allowed to get away with stuff because we don't punish (Dr Dawg who you praised didn't like punitive measures, as you recall).

And your sentimental touch about liberalism having to save the day which it ruined in the first place, well, let's just say we seem to be operating off radically different impressions of what "liberalism" is.

So as to your request for an apology:
I'm sorry you seem confused.

PM disgusted by man urinating on war memorial

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/07/03/1666201-cp.html

I cannot believe the nerve of the left-wing nut-cases who would dare use this as an opportunity to try and insult the military or the intelligence of those who fought in Canada's wars. It is clear that you have absolutely no ties to the military in your family backgrounds and no sense of what the men in those days signed up for and why.

Leftist: 'desparately needed jobs, huh.' You obviously have the revisionist history view. For your information, young men at the outset of both WWI and WWII ALL saw themselves as reservists. In those days, people EXPECTED that, from time to time, they would have to aacrifice for their freedoms. Overwhelmingly, they willing LEFT their jobs to VOLUNTEER. Only insulated morons such as yourself think that true liberty and protection of your way of life can be left to "negotiators."

And Steve...I will violate the rule about not feeding trolls long enough to say "the right was comfortable with Hitler"??? Chamberlain, Stalin, Roosevelt, and King. Figure out where each of them were on the political spectrum of their countries and then please shut the f**k up.

I would have expected better from all Canadians on this one. No matter what your political slant, the simple fact is that we will never see the likes of those who gave their lives out of a true sense of duty. I don't give a flying you-know-what about what you people (who have no idea what real "sacrifice" means) want to say about that sense of duty in your own time...it doesn't matter...people like our war dead MUST be respected - period.

No qualifications about what you think of history. No interjecting your little views about how the murderous bastards who were put down in those wars were misunderstood. Just shut-up and accept the fact that the reason you are allowed to have your cushy society today comes from those people who were a hell of a lot braver than you or I will ever be.

These punks who desecrated this memorial have committed an act that is the equivalent of slapping the country in the face. There was a time where they would have been branded traitors. They don't deserve any better treatment today. Anyone who disagrees with this simple point is WRONG. It's not an opinion...it's fact.

Well said Bryceman:
I remember very clearly about 30yrs ago walking home from a highschool party & yes i was pissed. I stopped at the local CP rail yard & took one on the office wall. Well guess what I got caught by the boys in blue, they took me in, put me in the drunk tank, called my dad, he said leave him there till he sober's up, teach him a lesson. When i sobered up they called for him to pick me up, the punishment was better in the drunk tank then when i got home & he hadn't even told my Mother what i had done & i do not know to this day if he ever did, lesson was learned. That was as i said over 30yrs ago I was taught to respect other peoples property by men that i came to have a great deal of respect for.
I wish i could have thanked my dad, I never did but deep down I think he knew.

By the way leftist:

Do you even know how your hero Tommy Douglas got started in politics? I bet you think it was to give you medicare.

But if you had brain one in that huge planetoid on your shoulders, you would know that he first became publicly active (along with his buddy - can't remember his name right now) because they saw thousands of WWI veterans RETURNING HOME TO FIND THAT THE JOBS THEY LEFT TO GO TO WAR WERE NO LONGER THERE.

He believed that their country owed them better. Hence his slant towards it being up to government to take care of people.

You didn't know that of course. You're not capable of properly studying the history of the views behind either your political opponents or your political friends.

I don't think that this is a left vs. right issue. It's more about the growing attitude of "ME,ME, ME, NOBODY MATTERS BUT ME!!" Adults riding their bikes on sidewalks and through pedestrians; people walking their dog without a leash where this is prohibited, or letting their dog crap in playgrounds; drivers who don't allow others to merge into their lane or conversely drivers who race past a lineup of stopped cars and then try to force their way in; etc.

Police seem to never be around when these things happen, but they're often found waiting to give you a ticket for doing 55 in a 50 or some similar thing, where there is no potential for public harm but a ticket can be quickly and easily written to meet the monthly quota.

It's time to start teaching manners and etiquette, and definitely enforcing the law less haphazardly.

No qualifications about what you think of history. No interjecting your little views about how the murderous bastards who were put down in those wars were misunderstood. Just shut-up and accept the fact that the reason you are allowed to have your cushy society today comes from those people who were a hell of a lot braver than you or I will ever be.

These punks who desecrated this memorial have committed an act that is the equivalent of slapping the country in the face. There was a time where they would have been branded traitors. They don't deserve any better treatment today. Anyone who disagrees with this simple point is WRONG. It's not an opinion...it's fact.

bryceman, i think most people would agree that pissing on the memorial is wrong. however, there will be different opinions on how severe the punishment should be. the commentators at sda would surely miss those with contrary opinions, aka "trolls". all that pent-up self-righteousness could be dangerous.

Bryceman:By the way leftist:

Bryceman: Do you even know how your hero Tommy Douglas got started in politics? I bet you think it was to give you medicare. But if you had brain one in that huge planetoid on your shoulders .... You didn't know that of course. You're not capable of properly studying the history of the views behind either your political opponents or your political friends.

Well I like and respect Tommy Douglas but I wouldn't call him my hero and I wouldn't say that I agreed with him politically. This really isn't relevant at all and neither are the personal insults. But I have to go now :-)

MND,the point(and only point)I was making with Dawg,be he a leftie or not,was that he was the FIRST and ONLY poster(to that point)to offer a possible solution instead of just bitching about it like all the regulars here were doing.AND I sure as hell never"praised"him!

Next,I"admit"a need for punishment?What the hell does that little bit of sarcasm mean?To me it proves you do not properly read other's posts and refuse to admit when you are proven to be wrong!I made my views on a need for proper justice for these and other punks CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY!

Now,I NEVER claimed liberalism would save the day,actually I already TOLD you I believe the exact opposite!THEN,I repeated clearly in my next post that us cons were the poor souls left to clean this bloody mess up!But again,you ignore this CLEAR message and AGAIN accuse me of the opposite!

Finally(your myopic views seem endless),you take me to task for not following your narrow little view of this post.Honestly,you actually accused me of"going off topic"which you considered a"valid observation"but not"germaine to the topic at hand".How is youth's drinking habits not a valid concern at a post about the actions of drunken youths?

I understand MND,only real men can find in themselves the strength to offer a deserved apology...But,I see your only concern is NOT to be found out to be wrong...you'd make a fine leftie...

Grrr... leftist fools.

That is worse than drawing a cartoon of Mohammed. It's worse than pissing on a cartoon of Mohammed.

We know how that would infuriate the Muslims.

Not to incite anything at all; certainly not!...But...

Perhaps, before someone on the left gets, um, harmed, like a cartoonist might, the left should think long and hard that there are many people out there who would feel so incredibly strongly about such intolerably deviant behavior that they might snap and not wait for the judicial wheels to go into motion. They must realize that people from all walks of life do sometimes "lose it" and mete out "citizen justice", despite their better judgement... that's always a danger in any society.

I'm just saying that for their own safety, leftists should learn to consider the possible dire consequences of such provocative actions... as if they could bring consequences of a magnitude similar to those stemming from the publishing of Mohammed cartoons.

If drawing Mohammed is considered by leftists to be deserving of the ultimate reaction, then they should accord the same respect of the National War Memorial.

Just a bit of friendly advice to any foolish leftists like the Calvin impersonators as I really don't want anyone to get hurt.

But I do wish these pissheads would go to prison for at least a while, just so a message could be expressed to society as to what won't be tolerated.

The left seriously needs to actually think, literally for the sake of their own safety!

Desecrating national monuments like the War Memorial should be considered a serious criminal offence. Certainly it's no less serious than desecrating a Mosque? Or a gay bar/bathhouse? That'd make leftists mad, wouldn't it?

Everything one needs to know about the state of the country can be discerned from a simple truth. The police don't have the manpower to stop people from pissing on the National War Memorial. If one hundred Canadian Patriots volunteered to stand guard on this night to prevent desecration of the memorial, the police would come up with twenty officers and tons of video equipment to make sure they could protect those who seem to have a "right" to piss where they choose, and the ability to accumulate evidence to prosecute anyone who might choose to stand up for our country and our history.

leafist said...
Why all these personal insults rather than discussion of the issues?
well lefty you just hit the nail on the head because thats all leftest can do...talk talk talk. action is not your best point.

should read leftist.

spike,...leafist may be more accurate than you think...since most lefties showing up here seem to have the IQ of a plant!(Sorry,I couldn't resist)

Kate said, and I quote, "Mark up another victory for the left." EXCUSE ME - WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE LEFT? HOW DO YOU BLAME THE LEFT FOR SOME OTTAWA IDIOT (Probably a Tory)! SHAME ON YOU KATE FOR MAKING THIS A LEFT / RIGHT THING! YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP - nutbar!!! Sheeeeeesh!!!

davidson:

My rage...pent-up? Not really. I felt it and vented it as soon as I saw where the trolls were trying to go with the conversation. Self-righteous?...you bet.

I have no patience for people who say, "What those guys did was wrong but..." and then try to get into an argument about the merits behind political leaders. When they do that, they are trying to lessen the sacrifice of the men those monuments honor.

It's like saying, "I don't want to take anything away from Person X, BUT [then go on to do exactly that]".

If people want to discuss the principles behind the World Wars...whether the underlying motives were right or wrong...whether the leaders of the participating countries were good or bad. I don't have a problem with that in its proper context.

But these men...the men who actually died for what they so strongly believed in deserve the highest regard - no matter what. If tomorrow, they uncovered incontrovertible evidence that both world wars started because someone lost a game of paper-rock-scissors...that would make the motives behind them silly. But, it would not reduce the honor that is due to the dead soldiers one little bit.

My rage is directed at those who were basically trying to say that these punks should not be looked on so badly because soldiers only signed up because they couldn't find better jobs and so on.

You are right. People will have different views on appropriate punishments. But I will not have these trolls try to tell me that the crime is lessened because the guys fighting them were stupid or desparate.

Steve d.

You have it wrong, I'm afraid...

This type of outrageous behavior is the legacy of your friends in the Liberal Party, who brought in the "Hug a Thug" principles into our criminal justice system. Years of coddling and even rewarding bad behavior has brought us to the point where our overall crime rate in Canada is now significantly higher than that in the US. As a result, we can no longer be termed a civil society in many areas.

The knowledge that bad behavior earns little or no consequences is creating crime. Here in Vancouver, thieves regularly steal bronze plaques off war memorials, tombstones and other monuments in order to sell to scrap metal dealers. Two weeks ago they stole two bronze plaques, honouring a murdered RCMP officer, from a pedestrian bridge.

Chretien was looking for his legacy...this is it.

Leftist wrote very early in this thread (and I came directly here without reading the rest of the posts), "And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better."

Perhaps others have chastised you for this gross impertinence and lack of respect for our fighting men and women, now and in the past.

My father, as a very young Canadian, was in the artillery in WW II and saw action in Holland. He joined the army to fight tryanny, not because he was desperate or propagandised. Your ignorance displays a serious lack of understanding and respect.

Leftist, far better the British Empire--Magna Carta and all that--and the American "Empire" (sic) than an Islamic Caliphate. In the latter dispensation, a whipper snapper like you wouldn't hold onto his/her head for long.

Talk about propaganda. Open your eyes and ears and find out what's really happening.

Remember, young (wo)man--no, you can't remember because you never knew--"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men [and women] stand ready to do violence on their behalf." George Orwell. You obviously have no clue that it's on the backs of our brave soldiers that you have the freedom to spout nonsense and disrespect without reprisal.

God help us all if the likes of you ever take charge.

And I think you owe an apology to all of Canada's brave soldiers, the quick and the dead. Shame on you.

Canadian Observier: B*L*U*S*H

I've re-read this again, and must confess I did indeed completely misread you. Sorry about that. We're obviously on the same team.

In your sentence:
If this is how a cross section of conservatives honestly feel about a Canada wide problem,well,now I'm depressed because it has been left to us(by liberalism)to solve this degeneration of responsibility in our society

I misread the parenthetical phrase "by liberalism" to read "left to liberalism to solve ...".

I'm in the middle of Coulter's "Godless" so the word "liberalism" has made me a bit twitchy. Promise to read you much more carefully in the future. Odd, I do remember thinking you were on the right team which should have alerted me to read more carefully.

Leftdog is desperately attempting to claim that desecration of the War Memorial isn't a leftist thing.

But... to oppose all war without exception is a patented dogma of the left. Therefore, desecrating the National War Memorial is a leftist thing.

And to whip one's nozzle out in public and exrete urine upon the War Memorial in front of war veterans... on Canada Day?! Would Leftdog like to make a case for such behavior being done by conservatives, despite the fact that it would be the exact opposite of anything a conservative would ever do, knowing the essence of conservatism?

Kate's not the only one to understand it to be a leftist action. I do, too. Only an imbecile leftist would deny that it has nothing to do with their dogmatic ideologies, namely to be anti-war, to expose their gonads in public (like in "pride" parades), and to piss anywhere they so desire as if it's an inalienable natural human right. No genuine conservative would do such a thing.

Honestly, I'm not sure where I sit on this discussion about the action being a left/right thing. Personally, I think that the perpetrators are simple idiots who don't have the brain power to fathom what they are doing because they too have no sense of history or the significance of such memorials.

Of course, being anti-war in all cases is a left thing. Being raised under the idea that you can do such things and not worry about consequences is a left thing. The total absence of youth being educated on what those memorials actually stand for is a left thing. And, of course, indifference to your elders is a left thing.

I just think that these punks' actions are not the actual disease (liberalism)...just a symptom of it.

Just waded through most of this thread,and one thing that is crystal clear is this;is anyone
in this country ACCOUNTABLE...for any thing,personally anymore? It`s the Liberals fault
for being such a bunch of weak kneed pansies when it comes to law and order(and they f#$@&&&ing well are),it`s the Conservatives fault for not being tough enough...blah blah freak`in blah.how about this ...the A-hole who
did this IS PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for his actions and should be held ACCOUNTABLE accordingly.

Dr. Dawg: "Settle down. There is no indication that this was deliberately done in order to show disrespect. The downtown is completely choked during C-Day. There's literally no place to go, in both senses of the word. It was some drunken yahoos looking for a place to pee, not people making political statements. Post Port-O-Potties, not police officers. Problem solved."

Dawg, you are trolling. That is against the rules. What you said there is so assinine it can only be interpreted as an attempt to make people mad at you.

This is the first and last time I'll address you on this thread.

Get a brain and some honor. Otherwise, I just might quit bothering to even read the stupid left-wing crap you write.

To all: behold the leftist claiming that the NWM was the only possible place to take a piss. I'm sure there was something left-wing somewhere they could've pissed on.

Behold the sheer stupidity of the left.

Well, the wingnuts are at it again. stevie duh thinks it is Harper's fault but can't explain the grafitti left last year when his beloved lieberanos were in power. dr puppy figures it is only lack of porta-potties but cannot explain why the dipshit didn't water a bush or lamp post instead of a monument. There were after all plenty of targets of opportunity. And leftie doggie figures if it is an idiot in Ottawa then is probably a tory. Poor leftiest cannot understand the anger being vented at some young punk desicrating a national momument.

Everyone of those listed above are missing the point: Thirteen years of "progressive government" has resulted in a society of me and my entitlements.

As the very first comment suggested, a good caning would be a suitable punishment.

As for a lack of police manpower. Perhaps these public events should be cancelled with a suitable explanation. It might prompt a "rethinking" on the police priorities.

A Rudy G/New York approach should be pursued.

Also, were these people drinking in bars first or in public?

Once again, if the police can't do a better job with these sorts of events, there needs to be a rethinking on how they're handled.

Dr Dawg:
I wrote: The threat of police power is the only thing that maintains that very thin veneer called civilization.

You wrote, oh so cleverly: Err...calling all anti-statists to the board! Pronto!

To clarify any semantic confusion here: when I use the word "statist", I refer to people who give primacy to government solutions over private initiative, and who want the state to DO things it shouldn't be doing.

I have a quite low opinion of humanity in general (the thin veneer of civilisation) and therefore I hold the line well short of anarchy. I DO believe in the state -- but the state doing what it was meant to do, namely, use its delegated monopoly over coercion and violence to RESTRAIN folks who threaten my liberty. Admittedly it's not glamourous, but there it is.

But given the 100,000,000+ killed by states in the 20th century, Canada's decades-long neglect of law and order, and the emasculation of the military, I'm starting to question whether the state can even manage that.

Can't resist: the NWM desecrators must have the natural empathic understanding of the Dawg: Dawgs and leftists: They'll piss on anything that's handy, eh? No wonder Dawg made the brainless comments he did. Apparently leftists have the intelligence and conscience of Dawgs. The leftist fools were simply "marking their territory", I'm sure.

Me No Dhimmi

You have got to own up to what is yours. Conservatism has a far right called Fascism. Period.
That is why the Fascists round up the socialists and kill them. Notice Fascists never round up Conservatives and kill or even jail them. Hmm, I guess that says it all.

Anthropology is fascinating.

There were 3 or 4 punks that urinated on the monument.As in previous years (prior to the Conservative gov't) people have urinated on these sites without any punishment or warning.This was why the Major took the photos,to prove to the Mayor,Premier,and Primeminister(all Liberals previous)that this was a problem.No prior action had been taken by anyone.You would think they could spring for some port-a-pottys with all that tax money they collect but I digress.
I think the debate about "left" and "right" should focus on the crowd of people that CHEERED when this punk peed on the monument.

"I sincerely doubt that these guys are leftists. They're drunken idiots. And while the Canadian military has mostly killed and died for, first, the British Empire and, now, the American Empire, it also fought the Nazis. And of course most of its members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better. It's sad and I don't condone urinating on the monument.

Posted by: Leftist at July 3, 2006 01:20 PM "

---Huh? What an imbecile. He makes no logical explanation for the desecrators not being leftists. He offers no proof that they were drunk. He seems to hold the delusion that the desecrators are actually soldiers/ex-soldiers. Mon Dieu! Prepare the straitjacket and the padded room and alert the biggest orderlies in white pajamas to prepare for an especially hard day's work! Ready the medication, plenty of it!

I'm amazed at the stupidity of the leftists I'm seeing on this thread. I certainly hope that not all leftists are similarly daft! That'd be scary!

Steve D:

Liberalism has a far left called Communism. Period.

That is why the Communists round up the conservatives and kill them. Notice Communists never round up Liberals and kill or jail them. Hmm, I guess that says it all.

Yep, I think we've got simplistic reasoning all figured out.

The pissant who desecrated the National War Memorial ist still meschugge. Are we clear?

But of course zis is faschisten sthinking, nicht war?

I'm amazed at the stupidity of almost everyone on this thread. Why? Because you've all got good points to make, and no body is hearing them, because you're all yelling at each other.

P.S. This is especially for Leftist: I forgot to mention my two grandfathers. They both left good jobs, wives, and seven children between them to fight Nazism. We were lucky: They both came home. I was blessed: I knew and loved them.

You don't know me, Leftist, but your remarks have desecrated the memory of three fine Canadians in my family: my father and my grandfathers. (Actually, make that six, no seven, no eight: My aunt was a WREN, my uncle was in the army. My father-in-law, whom I never met, was in the air force. My great uncle was too: He was killed and never met his son, who was born after his death. Then there was my mother's fiance, a pilot, shot down over Germany. He might have been my dad.)

And YOU dare to say at this site, "And of course most of its [the military] members joined (and join) because they were (and are) desperate for some kind of job and most were (and are) vicitms of propaganda and knew (and know) no better." And, "I am taken aback by the sheer nastiness and the threats of violence [sic]. Who are you people??"

We're people you've ungraciously, gratuitously, and deeply insulted, that's who.

The question is, Leftist, who the hell are YOU? (Whoops! That's nasty.)

P.P.S. I agree with CO and all those who say we need to regain authority for what is right and good in this country. However, the Charter--thanks, PET--which enshrined rights and not obligations, has made sure that's not likely to happen any time soon. I'm a teacher: Students'--the worst ones and their entitled parents know all about it--rights trump proper discipline over and over. Administration caves over and over and if they don't, the courts overrule them. It's a dismal situation.

Rudy Guilianni, where are you?

"Conservatism has a far right called Fascism. Period." and "Fascists round up the socialists and kill them". -- steve d.

You mean, like the National Socialist German Workers Party?

Steve D.: "Conservatism has a far right called Fascism. Period."

Dumbass leftist yet again. Fascism was the political ideology of Mussolini in Italy around WWII.

If anyone's fascist, it's the left. Via "political correctness" (that's akin to fascism).

We conservatives are actually the true, original "liberals". The difference is that we're smart enough to understand that the same time all need to have and observe rules and laws designed to keep good order in society, like not pissing on national monuments, for example, not to oppress as the left wants to believe and preach with flared nostrils, jutted chin and spittling maw.

If the left opposes fascism, then why have they such an adoring affinity for fascists like the Islamofascists, like Castro in Cuba, like the Chinese communists, like Ahmadinejad of Iran (the left claims he's a good guy and other stupid crap), etc., etc...

The left is only further proving how stupid they are.

Leftist, I'd like to hear from you.

EBD:

That would be the Nationale SOZIALISTISCHE Deutsche ARBEITERS Partei or NSDAP shortened to Nazi.

It makes lefties go into a fascist rage when you say the NAZIs were really socialists.

Iberia: "I don't think that this is a left vs. right issue. It's more about the growing attitude of "ME,ME, ME, NOBODY MATTERS BUT ME!!"

--- But THAT is a leftist thing. We know that, if we've been watching and thinking.

Liberalism in the raw is exactly about helping oneself to whatever or doing whatever, to hell with everyone else, right?

Whatever the motive of the urinators, they were indubitably leftist, for their actions are anathema to everything conservatives are about. Understand? Oh, I see... leftists don't understand, therefore they don't know what conservatism is about... they believe what their peers, leaders and the MSM tell them without thinking for themselves. Hell, they don't even understand themselves!

I think this post is a perfect opportunity to expose the left, using peeing as an example. I believe it's reasonably on-topic, as we're discussing, in part, the possible causes and motives of the desecration, plus the left comes on and makes astonishingly stupid comments.

Hans

What I said was true. It is history.

What you said has never happened. What you suppose was communism was not. It was totalitarianism or despotism but not communism.
Communism has never been tried. Elements of communism have been tried but only along side elements of totalitarianism, oligarchy, capitalism and despotism.
Fascism was tried several times. Each time the Left was persecuted. Never the Right. Because the Right is where Fascism thrives. It is particularly potent when joined with capitalism as it was with Hitler's particular brand. I know he called it National Socialism and it did have some elements of socialism but the reality was that Hitler hated socialism the unique way Conservatives do.The same is true for the inventor of Fascism Mussolini. In his famous definition of Fascism he states that it is the opposite of socialism.

Theoretically, communism is to the far left in socialism but it is highly unlikely that it would ever be tried. It was merely part of a theory that saw workers as being used and abused by capitalists and communism was offered up as one way to give the worker his dignity back. But then unions came along. But now unions are going. What will the future bring?

Vitruvius et al,
This is not about political idealism. This comes down to who you are, period, end of sentence.
This behaviour can not be condoned(sounds like everyone here agrees.. no?) or explained, or rationalised. The young man in question may not have realised the consequences of his actions. Too bad they were his. Freaking well own them!ie:apologise in public or explain exactly why you desecrated the memorial.

Hmmm...I wonder how big the outcry would be if the headstone of Trudeau...the "Great Mesiah" was urinated on.

Someone I know was arrested for skateboarding on that monument.

That would have been, oh, just after the Libs came into power under Chretien.

I guess things have changed.

Hans Rupprecht: "Notice Communists never round up Liberals and kill or jail them."

Thanks for reminding me of this, Hans, but... actually, communists round up and kill whomever opposes their dogmas, which are actually in opposition to what both conservatives and liberals stand for. The only way for communism to survive is to kill those who aren't onside. For example, communism forbids homosexuality, but liberals favor it, therefore communists kill liberals too. Communism forbids unions, but liberals favor them, therefore communists kill liberals too.

Communism is neither right nor left. It is a specific doctrine involving absolute central command and control, without any human rights/freedoms whatsoever.

Therefore, it is telling about leftist stupidity when the left promotes communism! They know nothing about it! Same for when the left defends Islamofascism.

I cannot believe all the opportunities I see to expose leftist stupidity, all stemming from this desecration .

Thanks, Hans, for providing another opportunity to thump the left.

I have only one Question about the National memorial.

Why don't we have an honor guard 24/7, 265 days a year?

Are we that shallow, or think this such a small thing? We leave the honored dead alone in death. Without the living, by deed show there gratitude?

I believe that having living peers standing on guard would be a great tribute. It not only shows respect for there self sacrifice, but is a warning to those who hate us that we have fought for our civil rights as human beings before & will again till death.

This whole thing would only cost the amount any Party spends on two polls a year, for wages. Perhaps three for the right equipment.

AS for the punk. What do folks expect after Trudeau turned education from learning centers into self esteem camps. This is the logical result. Narcissists in whom nothing is as important as themselves. We all are familiar with this loathsome breed. I am sure. I am just amazed at how many good ones, slip threw the deceitful net.

This is just the symptom of a systematic pogrom against the military for 13 years by Socialist zealots. Using the MSM & education system to instill this kind of contempt. We all now know why . Thank you Sheila Frazer!!

Lets see if we can get our Mps interested.

Wrong monument Greenidiot,Things haven't changed,you Liberals are still ignorant.

Steve d: "When the battles are for real, genuine causes the Left usually respond first."

You have recently made a great deal of noise about your research. Now, assuming that you accept that Communists are of the left, how do you explain the fact that following the signing of the Nazi-Soviet Pact on August 23, 1939,
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/nazsov.htm#II

the Communist Parties in France, the UK and Canada refused to support their countries' war efforts against Germany?
http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/stalin/lectures/NaziSoviet.html

'The foreign reaction to the Nazi-Soviet Pact and the annihilation of Poland was one of shock and rage. The Communist parties abroad, which had no official warning of the Soviet switch, reacted with confusion. On September 6 Thorez and other French Communists joined their regiments, calling for aid to Poland, only to desert at Moscow's behest a few days later. Harry Pollitt, the British Communist leader, wrote a pamphlet unfortunately titled "How to Win the War," and after two weeks both he and his pamphlet had to drop from public gaze. The German Communists in exile made strange noises suggesting that the Allies were worse than Hitler. The general line was that already stated by Stalin in March, that the war was an ''imperialist'' one for the redivision of the world. The Communists said much more about Allied than about Nazi ''culpability,'' and demanded ''peace.'''

As for Canadian Communists:
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/llt/49/01manley.html

'Party members joined the queues at the recruiting stations through September and October, unaware that Toronto had received word from Moscow that "it wasn’t our war any more." Amazingly, it took at least a month from the reception of this news (in late September) for the leadership to declare that the Party was now officially neutral. Buck’s [CPC leader] reminiscences of these events convey, but probably underestimate the leadership’s acute confusion. He claimed that the Polburo issued its neutrality bulletin on 14 October, but Central Committee member Beckie Buhay was plainly unaware of the new line as late as 26 October; the RCMP’s estimate of early November seems more accurate. It was symptomatic of Buck’s authority that the Party announced its new line as a pamphlet, The People Want Peace, under Buck’s name. Writing from the underground, where the party had voluntarily descended (it was not declared illegal until June 1940), Buck admitted that the Party had been mistaken in the "first weeks of the war in creating the illusion that this could be ‘a different kind of war’." Now, thankfully, it was "all the stronger ... in [its] firm adherence to the truth," which was that the war was not a "just war" but "a criminal war ... a predatory imperialist war against the true interests of the masses of people of all countries ... guilt [for which] rests equally upon the shoulders of the imperialists of Berlin, London and Paris." Buck pledged to fight for Canadian independence and the interests of the people against Canada’s ("our own") leaders, who were the enthusiastic stooges of the imperialists. 78 Thus, a period that began with Buck going off to prison seemed likely to end with a similar journey.'

Mark
Ottawa

Frankly, Cat, I think the urinator in question should be shot. There, are we done yet? Did that add anything to the debate? No. How could it? The way people are throwing around words like fascism and communism with only the faintest clue as to their denotation, there is no debate. It's just a yelling match.

You're lucky I don't indulge in that sort of behaviour; most of you would be devastated.

OMG, steve d. going into a three-hanky aria about how "communism has never been tried" while

FUCKING LITTLE PISSANT SCUM HAVE LITERALLY PISSED ON YOUR NATIONAL WAR MEMORIAL!!!!

Kate mentioned "the Left" only because of the lax attitude in this country which sees so many people immediately spring to the defense of these idiots - as we see here. Blame it on Harper (who's been in office for, what, five months?)! Blame it on the nasty conservative Canadian underbelly (which, as we know, *really* rules this country)! Blame it on the evil rigorous Canadian attitude towards drugs (ha! you should take a smell tour of my nice Edmonton neighborhood some summer night)! Blame it on anything but the lousy stupid kids who somewhere somehow learned it was okay to PISS ON A NATIONAL MEMORIAL TO THE WAR DEAD!

Unless you, like, think that's cool and all.

I was actually in the neighbourhood (maybe 50 M from the memorial) around the time when this happened, although I didn't see it.

I can't blame the cops for not being able to stop them. On Elgin st. on Canada day, their are literally thousands of drunks throwing beer bottles, jumping in front of cars, starting fights, etc. so I'm sure they had their hands full. Posting another cop by the memorial might mean one less cop to break up the fights.

As much as it's disappointing that these people did this, but it's hardly suprising. They were drunk idiots. period. More Porta-pottis wouldn't have stopped them; they probably wouldn't have waited in line.

I don't think this is a left/right political issue. It's just drunk stupidity, pure and simple. Disgraceful? sure. politcal? no.

PS
As to the whole communism/facism issue:

I think left/right is a really poor way to understand it. Politics is more like an X/Y axis; "Authoritarian" vs. "Libertarian" and "socialist" vs. "free market", in different combinations. Both Hitler and stalin were extreme authoritarians, with Hilter being a semi-socialist athoritarian (his economics were close to the "old" UK labour Party) and Stalin being a completely socialist authoritarian. The differences were really not that large.

Vitruvius
YES!!!! "the urinator should be shot".For the record I agree with you 100%.That`s my point, you made a statement (see above),are willing to stand by it,and OWN IT! When exactly did that become WRONG?

Lets not over complicate this , folks.
There was a time when an act like this would have resulted in immediate outrage and action from people present. This dipstick would have been made to understand the error of his ways, and not been made a hero of. Right now, you can bet the farm that anyone with the balls to deal with this jerk would have been hauled off to jail by the police.
We have descended to a point where the person who took the picture is fortunate that the mohawks didnt mind.

rob: I'm having a good laugh at being called a Liberal and realize I should have been clearer.

What I mean is that everything eroded under the Libs. Hopefully the arrests will be back. (The police do not change their attitudes overnight when a new gubmnt is elected and our cops are heavily politicized. Same all over the West.)

Now settle down and have some drinks. I know I have.

Never mind, Cat. I agree with you, GM, that the irresponsibility of the disorderly drunks is a tragedy of the commons. I also agree that the left/right dichotomy is an inadequate taxaonomy. The axes formulation that I have preferred as a first approximation are degree of personal freedom and degree of economic freedom. And there are others that are equivalent to varying degrees. Your first approximation works for me too.

But, hey, I'm in favour of conserving liberty. So am I conservative, or liberal? Am I left or right? Or are people simply confusing themselves via inadequate denotational concepts?

I am reminded that sometime in about 1982 Ozzy Osbourne urinated on the front door of the Alamo. He was swiftly arrested, prosecuted and run out of Texas and was effectively barred from returning there for at least ten years. At least it was dealt with. Here in Trudeaupia, I doubt the `wee` perp will ever face any kind of punishment. Sad, but this is what 30-40 years of Canada`s descent into secular, values-free liberalism has finally wrought. Welcome to Hell - and don`t park your hand-cart in the handicapped parking spot.

The un/entitled young man's potty behaviour is not, per se, political.

However, its ramifications, and, in particular, Leftist's comments on this thread, are. Vitruvius made an interesting point.

I've posted twice, in direct response to Leftist's egregious remarks. I've not heard from this person or anyone else--feel free to comment, Vitruvius.

GM
I take issue with your claim of semi-socialist for Hitler. What Fascism does is suppress worker rights and outlaws unions. It aims to make a state wherein the capitalist can operate with the greatest efficiency(ie slaves). This would be the diametric opposite of any socialist endeavour.
I think a modern socialist state would look something like Sweden where all workers belong to unions and are mandated to work out contracts with employers. The state simply assists by taking care of health care and child care and education. Once those are taken care of the employee and employer can focus on pay and working conditions. That is a long way from any Fascist state. That is why Mussolini, the founder of Fascism, said socialism is the opposite of Fascism.

me no dhimmi et al: For god's sake wake up and quit feeding the trolls!!

While it may be the case, Ian, that all proponents of value-free liberalism are secular (I wouldn't know), it is not the case that all proponents of secularism are value-free liberals (I know).

Meanwhile, bully for Texas. Did you know there are nine flights a day between Texas and Alberta? You just wait 'till we both separate and achieve our final military conquest of the eastern slopes of the continental divide. Yee ha, we'll have a mag-lev freight train from the gulf of Mexico to the Arctic Ocean, and wait 'till you see the hydrocarbons we're gonna pull out of the Arctic Ocean, and the Passage Taxes we're gonna place on the Northwest Passage cleared up via the gift of global searing.

Yes, I'm kidding. Happy late Dominion Day weekend, everyone. Remember, if your anger is actually causing you gastrointeritis, do, please, see a doctor. We all care about you.

"Am I left or right? Or are people simply confusing themselves via inadequate denotational concepts?"

You said, Vitruvius. For a dead Roman, you're getting smarter all the time. We've had a fascism/communism/socialism/conservatism discussion several times, and it was never a debate, only a yelling match.

Sorry, insert "it" after "You said ..."

Hi Steve,

While it is true that Facist states are repressive towards workers, they also tend to severely curtail freedom of contract, and typically involve substantial state participation in the economy. In terms of restrictions on economic freedom,
Facist states can be said to resemble socialist states, albeit with different (stated) goals. In both cases, economic freedom is severely curtailed to meet state objectives.

That said, you are correct that a state like Sweden does not resemble a facist state generally.

Hey, baby, we dead Romans get around. You'll usually find us hanging out with the dead Greeks. We dead folks stopped bickering long ago, about the time we died, in fact.

We dead Greeks and Romans do agree, though, that the asshole who urinated on the National War Monument and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier should be publically humiliated to a reasonable degree, in order to express to the kids our understanding of the relative order of things.

Disorderly drunks give a bad name to orderly drunks like me, and I won't stand for it!!!

Next thing you know people will start forgetting that Winston Churchill drank alcohol all day every day, and he saved western civilization.

"Learn your history. The Right was very comfortable with Hilter in the 30's. It was up to the Left to go to Spain and try to stop Fascism there before it could grow into the cancer it became. Where were the Right?
When the battles are for real, genuine causes the Left usually respond first."

Oh the left were the ones that stopped fascism? They are the ones that were against Nazism? They were also the ones that went up against the real fascist state of Italy?

Lets remember:

1. The U.S.S.R. were allies of Hitler until he opted to attack them as well. You know, the most successful left wing country to date? They had a treaty to split eatern Europe amongst the two.

2. Spain, while some argue it to have been a fascist state, others that have studied this longer than you or I cannot state emphatically that it was indeed fascism in Spain. They all agree that Italy was run by fascist. Who stopped Italy? I always thought it to be The U.S., Britain and Canada. You do realize that Liberism than couldn't be considered left wing as it is known to be know don't you? You do relize that in King's diaries he absolutely dispised Jews, blacks, the "welfare state"?

3. The left in Canada, U.S. and Britain held marches and demonstrations in sad attempts to stop their countries from participating in the war. In Canada Quebec held the largest socialist population as well as the most demonstrations against the war.

Now go read an actual book on these subjects. Don't go to your lefty blog and get their views, actually go and read them for yourself.

If you opt to live your live afraid of dying and are willing to bend over and pick up the soap for any group that pressures you into a corner than do not be surprised when you get pricked.

I'm not surprized at all. We've just had 40 yrs of Prime Ministers from Quebec pissing all over our armed forces.

Steve d: "What you said has never happened. What you suppose was communism was not. It was totalitarianism or despotism but not communism.
Communism has never been tried. Elements of communism have been tried but only along side elements of totalitarianism, oligarchy, capitalism and despotism.'

The only people who tried it were first called Bolsheviks, then Communists--as in the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

Do you know better what they were than they did themselves? Or are you simply an expert in the mis-application of Marxist theory?

Dr. Dawg: Help me here.

Mark
Ottawa

What about cameras?

Then publish just the faces of anyone stupid enough to partake in this activity.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, a shot of one of the people who did this is on the front page of today's ottawa citizen...

Agreed, Mark. My understanding is that the Bolsheviks and the (less successful) Menshevicks were the core carriers of the fatal communist idiom, and that the national socialists and the stalinists were various disasterous right and left (respectively) attempts to defeat them, and that this is not particularly relevant to the matter of the disrespectful drunk, or current Canadian politics, unless you count Jack Layton, who once said on the CBC that he would rather be called a socialist than a democratic socialist.

Looking at comments on the article at the Ottawa Citizen that's linked, I do note that only perhaps two could even be called "critical" (i.e., of the veterans who want the memorial protected, NOT of the "youts"). FYI.

Well, if it makes you feel any better...GM

What's your point of that gratuitous statement?

I meant all the time, guess I should have used the long form for you.
I'm suggesting it for full time use. Not to mention the person taking the picture is at risk of the companions of the offender attacking the cameraman/woman. Drunk people are stupid and full of liquid courage, wouldn't surprise me if they'd attack a senior citizen, if they perceived they were actually going to have to account for their actions.

I'll try it again just for you GM:

What about full time security cameras?

And one newspaper is not enough, should be carried in every major newspaper until it stops, since the police are not able to cope.

I think it's a good thing that these miscreants get their mug plastered on the front of the daily news. After the Edmonton Sun published the pictures of 10 of the miscreants who were manifestly interfearing with the delivery of fire and emergency medical services to the citizens and businesses in the Whyte Avenue area in Edmonton after some recent sporting event or another, they were all eventually arrested, and are being prosecuted.

I'm not in favour of state video surveillance, though. Orwell's Law, don't you know. You folks might want to check in to Glenn Reynold's (the InstaPundit's) book, "An Army of Davids." The way things are going these days, what with all the cell-phone-soother cameras, the bad guys are being caught in action in spite of the state.

The neighbourhood watch folks can just email them to the cops ;-)

In what way, Kate, is this "a victory for the left"?

Hi Ldd,

My point was quite simple: in this case, at very least, one of the guilty parties did, in fact, suffer the embarrassment of having his photo published. I agree that this isn't enough, but it's better than nothing (hence "it if makes you feel any better...").

I understood your suggestion....I was only trying to offer some consolation.

Many countries have an Honour Guard in place continuously at their tombs of unknowns. I watched the changing of the guard once when I was in Poland and it was very moving. Perhaps this incident will be the catalyst to have something similar. If the government does nothing then it will just be another example of the current shameful lack of respect for those who died for us.

As to drunks showing up for the Canada Day celebrations, police should set up check points at all street entrances and anyone who appears drunk or high should be told to go home or spend the night in jail. If they can't control these types of events then they should not have them.

mark collins

You can call it anything you want but the proof is in the pudding. Marx's entire idea is based around the worker being used and abused by a system of production called factory work which was owned by a few rich who benefitted immensely while having little or no regard for the humanity of workers. So the idea was to give the worker input and dignity. Not a bad goal. Noble when you read about 19th century work life.

This humanity and giving input and dignity to workers is not found in soviet communism. It is what is today called false advertising. Once you have bought in to the product and you find brutal totalitarianism what do you do? Especially when you have just come from a brutal monarchy that had no regard for you either.

This is what Harper does to a lesser extent. He knows Canadians want some socialism so he plays along. They want daycare so he gives everyone with small kids $1200. we both know he doesn't really believe in daycare or social programs but then he wants power. So what is a politican to do? Bides his time and slowly starves the social programs that's what. The longer he is in power the less social programs will be fed. Most people aren't aware of that but we both know its true.

I'm just wondering if there is any differences at all between conservative and liberal urine or even green or bloc for that matter?

Reasonable people would conclude in non-partisan stance it was a disgraceful, belligerant act and chargeable under by-laws? The mention of propensity to use baseball bats on the individual by more than a few on this board is sadly telling of violent mindset of the conservative base.

The rule of law should apply to denigration of our war dead. Resolve to respect it. The dead would appreciate that.

Iberia,

I agree with your first point...we should have some sort of guard on that memorial, at least during daylight hours in the spring/summer months or for special occaisions like Canada day.

But checkpoints? there are literally tens of thousands of people at this celebration, and my recollection from saturday is that most of them appeared at least somewhat drunk. You have to keep in mind as well that the celebrations aren't in a enclosed area. It would require several hundred police officers to secure several blocks of downtown ottawa as well as the hill itself. I think guards or fencing around the important monuments would be more practical.

Long thread: The only thing that needs to be said is that we know things have gone beyond acceptable when a young man (drunk or not) pees on our National War Monument in Ottawa and the crowd around him, rather than correcting his egregious behaviour, laughs.

Something needs to be done and I think our politicians, our veterans, our police, and all thinking and caring Canadians, need to begin to seriously deal with the lack of respect and civility shown by too many Canadians in public places.

I lived in Ottawa for eight years and am very familiar with the National War Monument and its surroundings. The canal is not far away, neither are walkways which are lined with trees and bushes. NO ONE needs to relieve themselves on a national monument to Canada's war dead, when there's an abundance of grass, bushes, and trees, only a short walk away, not to mention washrooms in the many bars and restaurants in Byward Market and on Elgin Street.

There are no excuses.

Long thread: The only thing that needs to be said is that we know things have gone beyond acceptable when a young man (drunk or not) pees on our National War Monument in Ottawa and the crowd around him, rather than correcting his egregious behaviour, laughs.

Something needs to be done and I think our politicians, our veterans, our police, and all thinking and caring Canadians, need to begin to seriously deal with the lack of respect and civility shown by too many Canadians in public places.

I lived in Ottawa for eight years and am very familiar with the National War Monument and its surroundings. The canal is not far away, neither are walkways which are lined with trees and bushes. NO ONE needs to relieve themselves on a national monument to Canada's war dead, when there's an abundance of grass, bushes, and trees, only a short walk away, not to mention washrooms in the many bars and restaurants in Byward Market and on Elgin Street.

There are no excuses.

Little Preamble to the Feature Story.
While on a Stop - over in Gibraltar with the
Canadian Navy in the early '60's, a few Canadian
Sailors made it as far as Madrid, Spain.
While in Madrid, these Canadian Sailors climbed
to the Top of the Monument of Spains National
Hero, El Cid & pissed off it. Naturally, the
Spaniards were not amused.

When we find out who he was, I suggest he wash down the National War Memorial every day until he goes back to school. If there is one speck of dust or urine that he misses, he stays there for another week. We could have saved all this shouting and yelling if the police had just given him a sharp tap with a night stick. Unfortunately the limp wristed judges would have set there hair on fire. Queen Bev and the Moonbats at the SCOC would have written in a whole series of laws to stop the police from enforcing any kind of respect for law and order. Doesn't make you happy to know Trudeau is still laughing. DKT

Thank you all for playing Canadian Survivor: Hans Island.

The tribe has spoken and this 'pissant' has been voted off the island!!

Meg Q
When drunks piss on memorials they are drunks pissing. I do not over react.

When straight church-going christians piss on the homeless, THAT is something to get upset about. If you insist on getting 'pissed off' about something make it about human beings in your own country first. Then human being elsewhere, then somewhere way down on the list you can get pissed off about drunks pissing on monuments.

My apologies for being a bit too abrupt GM, I'm a little touchy when it comes to how LSM or anyone disregards the ones who made the ultimate sacrifice for us. I'm not amused by this one little bit although I'm sure cbc would be.
I'm clearly remembering how cbc treated a Veteran on air last Remembrance Day. Suppose to be the 'Year of the Veteran' - perhaps declared just to be trash by the liberal hand maiden, cbc.

O/T
CTV.CA Evening National News with Lisa Laflam, RE: Israeli/pali conflict. They just broadcast an image of the two flags while flogging the poor pali side of the situation. The Israel Flag, was shown backwards and in dark red, where the blue should have been. The pali flag was shown properly.

Think I'll write them an praise them for proving that it's all the evil joooos fault and I got their nuanced message...

well, considering the near record size of response in a single evening on this posting, I stand by my earlier expression that this monument pissing issue is far from over.

personally, video cameras are the way to go. passive, 24/7, irrefutable, viewable over and over again, slow-mo, frame capture etc. std vid format .wmv; upload to the internet to search out the culprits. etc etc

I have a total of 3 cameras in my place for a measly 1200 bucks, the cost of the expansion card, cameras, cable and trade in to a bigger hard drive. you can get nite vision capable, wide angle, color or b/w, up to 16 cameras on one system and ALL cheap OFF THE SHELF PARTS.

if I could do an attachement I would show you the profile of some 20something slut breaking in to my car in the driveway. right under the sign warning all of the presence of video cameras.

the local cops have the video and if they ID the bitch she will be charged with B&E for the sake of 5 bucks in parking meter coins. all you need is to tap into a 110 V o/l for the camera's power supply and then use a wireless connection for the video signal.

I even got to write off the ENTIRE expense on my taxes (rental property upgrade).

1200 bucks, good for years to come.

Perhaps part of the punishment for weeing on the NWM should be to have to stand around on a busy street corner in the middle of the week and wear a big sign that says:

"I desecrated the National War Memorial with my tiny little weenie."

Another part of the punishment should be to have their photographs published all over the place, as if they were mobsters or terrorists or something.

Treat 'em like Pee-Wee Herman was treated for having "it" out at the naughty movies.

I hope that no leftist judge lets them off. I hope the book gets throw