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June 5, 2006

Timing Is Everything

NDP Leader and would-be Prime Minister Jack Layton, speaking before the Islamic Society of North America, May 20, 2006;


"We also have to put an end to the security certificates - the security certificates and that whole piece of legislation, bill C-36, must be thrown out!"

(wmv)


Luc Portelance, Assistant Director of Operations, CSIS on June 3, 2006;
"This is the largest counter-terrorism operation and arrests in Canada since the creation of the Anti-Terrorism Act [C-36] and the amendment of the Criminal Code to better define terrorism."

Posted by Kate at June 5, 2006 12:09 AM
Comments

Way to go Jaaak wrap a tea towel around your head and be one with the islamofacists. You would no doubt run all the way to the fantasy land of palestien to be one with Araafat if his stinking carcass was still above ground

Posted by: bubba at June 5, 2006 12:16 AM

Jackass Jack will cure whatever ails you...he the man.

Posted by: Dipper luver at June 5, 2006 12:25 AM

In 1938/39 people like Jack and his beanstock friends led demonstrations against Canada fighting hitler. They screamed that it wasn't "our" war and we should stay out of it.
Not much has changed in all those years except the ability of individuals to wage terror. Now an idividual can kill hundreds with very little effort. They used to say one had to have God on thier side, now they only need the CBC. sorry, another change is that I am a lot older!

Posted by: melwilde at June 5, 2006 12:26 AM

J.S. Woodsworth isn't really dead, he's come back as Flap Jack Layton. The real question is, does Jack ever listen to what he says? Cause it's really, really dumb.

Posted by: Canard at June 5, 2006 12:32 AM

Wayda go Jackie.....

With a person like you in power..........why would this country need enemies.

Why don't you just wrap a towel around your head and allah akkabar (or whatever)

Hell.................have a blast and do this country a favor and just detonate yourself. Then you could go and maybe get yourself 72 homo virgins.

The NDP and Liberals aren't even a bad joke anymore. They are what you get when you close down mental hospitals and quit giving lobotomies and electro shock therapy.

Posted by: notasocialist at June 5, 2006 12:41 AM

Yet another reason why Jack Layton will never become Prime Minister.

Posted by: Andrew Smith at June 5, 2006 12:54 AM

Hey Jack, what does the Koran say about gay marriage?
How about women's rights, what does it say about that? Should they be allowed to drive a car or get an education?

Posted by: Stan at June 5, 2006 1:14 AM

What a dope! Namby-pamby Jack.

Posted by: Soccermom at June 5, 2006 1:23 AM

LOL ~ oooooops! Surely this man is unelectable, even in Canada.

Posted by: Tom Penn at June 5, 2006 1:31 AM

The man does not speak for me at any time ever.A vote for him only proves that the masses are asses.

Posted by: Shmoo at June 5, 2006 1:31 AM

The man does not speak for me at any time ever.A vote for him only proves that the masses are asses.

Posted by: Shmoo at June 5, 2006 1:32 AM

Jack-ass!

Posted by: Jim Pook at June 5, 2006 1:37 AM

Serious question: what will it take for Canadians, as a society, to understand this threat against our way of life? I do wonder what on earth will pry the international left from their position of defense of "Islamic" freedoms, and toward a defense of real liberal traditional western values?

Posted by: Tom Penn at June 5, 2006 1:41 AM

Bill C-36

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/chambus/house/bills/government/C-36/C-36_3/C-36TOCE.html

Posted by: Buffalo Bean at June 5, 2006 1:50 AM

Judging from the comments I've read thus far, I'm guessing no one has even read any section of the act in question.

(An act brought into force by the hated 'Libranos' in 2001, I might add.)

Maybe I shouldn't jump the gun, but I haven't seen a single comment thus far offering a substantive, informed opinion on the security certificates Layton was denouncing in his speech.

What I have noticed are ignorant comments about 'towels around heads,' 'allah akkabar' and 'homo virgins'--all presumably written by people in full support of bill C-36's Hate Crimes provisions, no?

Take a look:

[C-36's measures include] amendments to the Criminal Code that allow the courts to order the deletion of publicly available hate propaganda from computer systems such as an Internet site. Individuals who post the material will be given the opportunity to convince the court that the material is not hate propaganda. The provision applies to hate propaganda that is located on Canadian computer systems, regardless of where the owner of the material is located or whether he or she can be identified.I wonder how comfortable the ignorant bigots are feeling with their homophobic 'towel-head' comments now.

Don't like Layton's position on security certificates? Fine.

Why not come up with an informed critique of his position, then, rather than throwing ignorant nonsense about?

Posted by: Stephen at June 5, 2006 1:53 AM

I agree Stephan.

Crap like that does nothing but throw gas on the fire.

Doesnt change the fact that Layton is a knob.

Posted by: Douglas at June 5, 2006 2:02 AM

Can we all agree that McGuinty's experiment with 'sharia courts' is deader than a doornail now and forever?

Posted by: cynical joe at June 5, 2006 2:37 AM

No lie is too stupid for Kate to repeat.

From the NDP campaign platform.

Scrap the draconian Anti-Terrorism Act, written by Liberals and opposed by the NDP, which has already impeded media freedom in Canada. We will replace it with legislation that respects civil liberties, ethnic communities and freedom of the press.

Posted by: Robert McClelland at June 5, 2006 2:46 AM

Pretty hard sell now, not?

But will that sink in to Dulton?

Posted by: Douglas at June 5, 2006 2:54 AM

Doesnt change the fact that Layton is a knob.

Fine.

Got evidence that would convince serious people?

Provide it.

Posted by: Stephen at June 5, 2006 3:08 AM

New Dhimmicratic Party of Canada.

Posted by: Shaken at June 5, 2006 4:13 AM

Good post, Stephen! You certainly know how to keep the wingnut wordcount down!

I have my own question for you racist wingnuts: how do you know that Security Certificates have been effective on behalf of Canadian national security? Can you cite one example where this extraordinary attack on your civil liberties has helped in any way? And what other crimes or governments have been protected by Security Certificates?

... really, you don't know what they are, do you? Great.
An informed electorate is the best insurance against tyranny -- and Stephen Harper's worst nightmare!

Posted by: R at June 5, 2006 4:46 AM

How about Jack's idea to borrow against the Canada Pension Plan account to fund retrofitting all homes with new doors and windows?...proof that Layton is a doorknob!

Posted by: rob at June 5, 2006 6:11 AM

How about Jack diving head first into Kyoto effectively crushing Alberta's economy.

Posted by: jackass at June 5, 2006 6:50 AM

PART OF CBCPRAVDAS STORY.


Other U.S. officials see the possibility of al-Qaeda cells in Canada.----???

"Americans should be very concerned," said New York Rep. Peter King, chairman of the U.S. Homeland Security Committee. "Canada is our northern neighbour and there is a large al-Qaeda presence in Canada.-----THANKS LIBS

"I think there is a disproportionate number of al-Qaeda in Canada because of their very liberal immigration laws, because of how political asylum is granted so easily."------THINK KHADRE FAMILY.

Other U.S. officials want to beef up security on the Canada-U.S. border, and want to introduce high-tech passports.

AND THEN CBCPRAVDAS LITANY OF ODD HEADLINES.

Mosque vandalized after bomb-plot sweep
Canada gathers praise, criticism after arrests
Islam not violent, Toronto Muslims say
Theories surface about what led to Ontario arrests
Canada Features
INDEPTH
Anti-terror Sweep
The suspects & reaction to foiling a terror plot Indepth
CBC Forum
A live chat with CBC's senior correspondent Don Murray ---


MR.HARPER --PULL THE PLUG ON CBC.

Posted by: cal2 at June 5, 2006 7:05 AM

How about the fact that the RCMP and CSIS have arrested over a dozen terror suspects with a massive explosive potential, yet Layton wants to do something like getting rid of security certificates.

The NDP will never gain power. And I thnak the stars for that.

Posted by: Dennis at June 5, 2006 7:08 AM

He da man - Islama-Jack!

Posted by: Faraday at June 5, 2006 7:59 AM

Spare me the ad homimem about Jack! Pissing all over him personally isn't what the forum is about. There isn't anything wrong with dissent, even if it is stupid and ill timed. The NDP actually represent a rump of Canadians long known for their being pacifist and social democrats. The time for them passed many years ago when their hair splitting, identity politics morphed into velevet unionism, cooperative irrelevancy and politcal isolation. Jack was made for the modern NDP. He lacks guile, cunning and sadly political acumen. He is entertaining, opinionated and constantly campaigning in a resolutely vacuous manner. Contrasted against the current government, well, it just isn't fair to compare a mature, cunning Leader with an also ran. There is a fine line to walk in a democratic soceity between respect for the minority opinion and governing for the good of the country. Almost all of Liberal legislation needs a thorough review as nearly every Bill they've ever introduced is suspect. But this will take years to correct. The security certificates are problematic for sure. In the hands of a reactionary, they are trouble. There is a good chance that we are on the brink of making transparent a judicial system that will victimize the "scary 17." I fear we can lock em up but not get the results we need. The last thing Canada needs is to be seen on the world stage as a "soft of terrorism." After 7/7, Britain acted quickly and swiftly. Will Canada?

Posted by: JRB at June 5, 2006 8:26 AM

Layton, NDP, CUPE: Support and are allied with Islamist terrorists both in Canada and around the world.


Jack Layton is a traitor to Canada.

Down with Jack Layton, the NDP, CUPE.

Down with Islamist terrorism.


NDP Supports Islamist Terrorism ...

This past weekend (Jan 29-30 2005), the federal council of the New Democratic Party of Canada unanimously passed a resolution sponsored by Alexa McDonough and the NDP International Affairs Committee regarding Canada's use of security certificate to hold non-citizens indefinitely without the laying of charges.
Excerpt:
NDP Resolution - Security Certificates

WHEREAS Security Certificates have been described by Amnesty International as "fundamentally flawed and unfair"; and

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the NDP calls on the federal government to:

1. Either lay charges and allow the accused to undergo a fair and transparent judicial trial or immediately release all individuals being held under Security Certificates;

2. Refuse to deport any detainees to a country where there is a substantial risk of torture and possibly death, in compliance with the UN Convention against torture;

3. Immediately halt the use of Security Certificates and re-write the security provisions of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act to make them consistent with our Constitution and Charter, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the UN Convention against Torture;

4. Provide leadership in ending the attacks on civil liberties and racial profiling and targeting of Arab and Muslim individuals and communities and other ethnic and religious minorities occurring within federal jurisdiction, in partnership with other levels of government and civil society.; and

5. Develop a plan of action and provide adequate resources to defeat racial profiling and religious bigotry. ...
http://www.zerra.net/freemohamed/endorsement_NDP.php

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 8:32 AM

There is an obvious parallel between the idea of the security certificates and the gun registry. Can you see these guys saying "c'mon, chaps, put down the ammonium nitrate - let's run out and get our Security Certificates©. After that, we'll stop for ice cream, and then zip back here."

Posted by: Grasshopper at June 5, 2006 8:47 AM

alright, jrb - you da man!

Posted by: jackass at June 5, 2006 8:51 AM

"Any society that will give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
--Benjamin Franklin

Posted by: Mak at June 5, 2006 9:02 AM

"Stephen" has a point on this one.
C-36 sounds good when applied to foreign terrorists, but it could just as easily be used on anyone. (gun owners come to mind. All it would take is to label unregistered gun-owners potential terrorists). Governments change, and in the ebb and flow many become corrupt, as we have so recently seen. Let's not give them too much power. C-36 has tremendous potential for abuse.
As far as Jack Layton goes, it it best to just laugh and shake your head when you see him.
He is the ideal leader for the NDP! A shallow, flakey, pseudo-intellectual represents the most accurate picture of NDP supporters I've seen in a long time.

Posted by: Mad Mike at June 5, 2006 9:09 AM

I wrote this e-mail and sent it before logging on today. Given your headline, timing is everything thought this e-mail might be of interest.

Posted by: Anne Marsden at June 5, 2006 9:17 AM

________________________________________
From: Anne and Dave Marsden [mailto:amarsden2@cogeco.ca]
Sent: June 5, 2006 9:10 AM
To: 'letters@thespec.com'
Cc: 'lthompson@thespec.com'; 'dborcea@thespec.com'; lougheed@burlington. ca (lougheed@burlington.ca); 'burgessr@burgesslawoffice.com'; 'judymorrisoncampaign@cogeco.ca'; 'petert@chapterhouse.ca'; 'news@chtv.ca'; 'dsmith@haltonsearch.com'; 'Susan Gamble'; joe. stevens@sympatico. ca (joe.stevens@sympatico.ca)
Subject: LAWYER SEEKS A LINK TO TOP COURT HEARING ("TERRORIST" ARRESTS)
Importance: High

Page A10 of the Hamilton Spectator today has an important comment from Lawyer Rocco Galati that could easily be missed. It relates to the timing of the `terrorist`arrests as they relate to the hearings on the constitutionality of security certificates. The pictures and write up take me back to the time Halton family courts – Burlington and Milton – were subjected to a similar scenario in terms of police carrying assault weapons etc. inside family court. The hearing was a child protection matter involving a Muslim teen where the father flew a Palestinian flag at his Milton residence.

The Globe and Mail carried the story on its national page. Paul Legall of the Spectator also covered the story. The Burlington Journal, however, was the only paper to cover the story on its front page and provide the perspective of a Burlington family advocate (myself) who was assisting the Muslim teen ensure her best interests were the no. 1 priority as our legislation states they should be. It took a while for me to go through the correct channels and do what the family lawyer had been unable to do, obtain the Halton CAS files for the family. After examination of the files it was very clear the highly armed swat team presence was totally unnecessary and the comment from a local lawyer that the highly armed police presence was nothing more than an attempt to influence the court in its decision making immediately gained credibility. After my involvement and exposure of the facts to the court and the media the swat team disappeared and the girl was released back to her family with no explanation or compensation for the irreversible damage to the teen and family`s emotional health and Halton`s police budget.

The teen`s claim which she asked me to put before the court, in the presence of Paul Legall, that she was sexually assaulted by the Halton CAS social worker, the impact of the shock of finding an assault team in family court on the father who had a heart condition that was known to police and Halton CAS and the evidence that there was a perjured affidavit that manipulated a figure of speech to allow for a gross mis-use of police resources have still not been dealt with. Perhaps with a new police chief for Halton who came on board after exposing an obstruction of justice within the senior ranks of Halton police, Halton taxpayers might now be able to get answers to questions associated with a gross mis-use of police resources that have perplexed the Halton community for more than a decade..

I look forward to the media and the Halton Muslim community supporting my efforts for accountability in this matter in order to ensure police and child protection resources are never mis-used in this manner in Halton again.

Anne Marsden (Mrs.)
Candidate Ward 2 – Burlington City and Regional Councillor
Audit Manager
The Auditors
The Canadian Family Watchdog
#308 – 1425 Ghent Avenue
Burlington
Ontario
L7S 1X5
Tel. 905-639-5684
e-mail: watching@cogeco.ca

c.c. Halton Mosque – hand delivered

Posted by: Anne Marsden at June 5, 2006 9:19 AM

Like all things done by government, security certificates can be used for good or bad purposes. Depending on your point of view. However, the Liberals thought they were important and until somebody can prove they are being abused they are the law. So those that would blame Stephen Harper for all of society's woes need to take a reality pill.

Layton has always appeared to me to be a used car salesman type. He'll say or do anything to get his point across no matter how outrageous that point of view is. Watched Alexa on CTV Sat. I defy anyone to understand what the position of the NDP is on Afghanistan. We should be there but our soldiers shouldn't be fighting. We need to have diplomacy. With who I ask? It goes on and on. Pure foolishness from a party that will not admit they are pacifists and they do not believe in the military or war regardless of the cause. For the NDP to say we should be in Darfur is outrageous. As soon as our soldiers started to get killed there, they would be calling for them to come home. The NDP should admit where they stand and stop dancing on the head of a pin. They eventually will get pricked.

Posted by: Helen at June 5, 2006 9:31 AM

Maybe I'm missing something, but what pray tell would security certificates have done to stop these terrorists?

And which government brought in the Anti-Terrorism Act?

Ted
Cerberus

Posted by: Ted at June 5, 2006 9:32 AM

Can we all agree that McGuinty's experiment with 'sharia courts' is deader than a doornail now and forever?

Huh? He just finished getting rid of all religious tribunals under the current Arbitration Act. Where the hell have you been?

As for the usual namecallers here, whose IQs totalled up wouldn't come close to Jack Layton's, what do security certificates, in which people don't even have a right to face their accusers in open court in an honest trial have to do with the current mess? Give your heads a collective shake--and try not to rattle.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 9:39 AM

So FlapJack layton wants racial profiling made a criminal offence, eh?
How about making the hiding of faces behind bandanas and hijabs in public places a criminal offence FlapJack?

Posted by: Joe Molnar at June 5, 2006 9:39 AM

Dawg said:"As for the usual namecallers here, whose IQs totalled up wouldn't come close to Jack Layton's, what do security certificates, in which people don't even have a right to face their accusers in open court in an honest trial have to do with the current mess? Give your heads a collective shake--and try not to rattle."

Islamist Jihad will give your head a shake, Dawg. Your head, Dawg, will no longer "rattle". ...


Jihad's True Believers-Why suicide bombers cannot be deterred.
BESA Center for Strategic Studies Bar-Ilan University ^ | 6-5-06 | Laurent Murawiec

Posted on 06/05/2006 5:42:21 AM PDT by SJackson

BESA Center for Strategic Studies Bar-Ilan University Radical Islam: Challenge and Response Thursday May 25, 2006 Embargoed for publication until May 25, 2006 DETERRING THOSE WHO ARE ALREADY DEAD? Laurent Murawiec Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, Washington, D.C.

Deterrence works because one is able credibly to threaten the center of gravity of the enemy: the threat of inflicting unacceptable losses upon him, whether in a bar brawl or in nuclear escalation. The calculus deterrence relies upon is: is it worth it? Is the Price/Earning Ratio of the contemplated action so hugely negative that it would wipe out the capital? Deterrence works if the price to be paid by the party to be deterred hugely exceeds his expected earnings. But deterrence only works if the enemy is able and willing to enter the same calculus. If the enemy plays by other rules and calculates by other means, he will not be deterred. There was nothing the Philistines could have done to deter Samson. If the calculus is: I exchange my worthless earthly life against the triumph of Allah on earth, and an eternity of bliss for me, if the enemy wishes to be dead, if to him the Apocalypse is desirable, he will not be deterred. ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1643570/posts

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 9:46 AM

Jack Layton was and is a NDP City Councillor. He’s not a bad person. But he handles problems that he can see, such as the homeless. The NDP Mayor Miller is squandering our tax dollars but at least he’s not solely in charge of our security.

Similarly, Gerard Kennedy in the Liberal leadership race made a very worthwhile contribution running the Food Bank and dealing with visible problems. From the left, the Liberals and Dippers can safely continue to play a useful role with these kinds of problems.

However, running a country, particularly since 9/11 is an enormous job. Liberals and Dippers can’t be trusted with the security of our nation. Possibly Ignatieff could be trusted with the security issues. But ironically because he understands global security he has been vilified within the Liberal party for being a Hawk on military matters. However, the Liberal party itself would split with him in charge. So they’ll probably choose the other Dipper , Bob Rae.

Posted by: nomdenet at June 5, 2006 9:48 AM

Steven you are so wright the clauses in question are terrible and don't address the real problem.

Which is that all muslims need to be sent home. Then no one would worry about the ammonium nitrate.

Then we wouldn't need some mamby pamby bill,

PS Layton is a looooser, as well as an ass.

Posted by: DrWright at June 5, 2006 10:02 AM

Whatever happened to the notion that citizens (aware of the benefits and obligations of citizenship) and subjects (which in this context I would take to be permanent residents desirous of remaining in Canada) have a personal duty not to be disloyal to the sovereign/state?

If people are not willing to accept this duty then they must accept--if they act on their unwillingness--the legal consequences as citizens or deportation as subjects.

It's called treason, stupids.

Mark
Ottawa

Posted by: Mark Collins at June 5, 2006 10:03 AM

"...but decisions to strike them fall into the hands of the "local emirs."


Who are the "local emirs" in Canada? In Toronto: Scarborough, Mississauga, etc.? In Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, etc.?

Do Imam Ali Hindy, Dr. Mohamad Elmasry, and more, fall into this cabal: local emirs? By their words in the past and now, the answer is an unequivocal: Yes.

Islamist Jihad is a clear and present danger to Canada and Canadian citizens.

Who has brought this to pass in Canada? The liberal left/socialists: Jack Layton, the NDP,CUPE, the fellow-travellers in the Liberal Party. The left is the enemy of Canada. The left is allied with Islamist jihad.


From London to Toronto: Dismantling terror cells, dodging their ideology
Jewish World Review ^ | 6-5-06 | Walid Phares

Posted on 06/05/2006 5:31:02 AM PDT by SJackson

Without a mass mobilization of the public and its talents, the next generations of Jihadists, already operating within democracies will be wrecking havoc in the lives of our current and future generations

Over the past nine months, speeches by Osama Bin Laden, Ayman Zawahiri, other Jihadi cadres and the documents found after the arrest of Terror-architect Abu Mus'ab al Suri all put the West and democracies on notice: the second generation al Qaida is marching.

The "Jihad country-list" includes those countries whose troops are engaged in battles against the Terrorists around the world or whose police force is attempting to disrupt the cells at home. Beyond the "regular" countries-targets such as the United States, UK, Australia, Russia, India, Jordan and Israel, many others "infidel" countries made it to the top 20: Denmark, Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Norway, Belgium, Germany, Portugal, Canada etc. The first type of countries, those who are engaged directly in confrontations with Jihadi networks on battlefields such as Afghanistan and Iraq, are "open targets." This is the A list. However, countries on the B list are "enemies of the cause" but decisions to strike them fall into the hands of the "local emirs."

This week two countries from the A and B lists witnessed ponctual counter Terrorism operations leading to the arrests of dozens suspects and the foiling, according to authorities, of potential future bombings: Great Britain and Canada. The security moves were successful but were the public statements as focused? ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1643560/posts

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 10:03 AM

Trust McClelland to reply to a post that does nothing more than present the recorded words of Jack Layton - and declare it to be my lie.


Posted by: Kate at June 5, 2006 10:09 AM

Nomdenet:

The RCMP/CSIS sting operation was facilitated by Liberal introduced legislation and they were charged under provisions of the Criminal Code introduced by the Liberals immediately after 9/11.

And these guys were caught. In a carefully planned sting operation after over 2 years of investigations.

As I said over at Cerberus on the weekend, this is not a partisan issue.

It's shocking to me how many on the left and many on the right want to turn everything into a partisan issue, how desperate they are to attack each other instead of trying to bring Canadians together.

For me, as a Liberal who has been trying to get more people to pay more attention to security concerns, this is an excellent opportunity to further educate and bring people on board, for the sake of our collective security. Idiots who prefer to alienate and attack their fellow citizens are not only polarizing Canadians and making it more difficult to achieve a consensus on this, but in my mind acting very unpatriotically.

Ted
Cerberus

Posted by: Ted at June 5, 2006 10:11 AM

Nomdenet:

The RCMP/CSIS sting operation was facilitated by Liberal introduced legislation and they were charged under provisions of the Criminal Code introduced by the Liberals immediately after 9/11.

And these guys were caught. In a carefully planned sting operation after over 2 years of investigations.

As I said over at Cerberus (canadiancerberus.blogspot.com/2006/06/massive-terror-attack-averted-in.html) on the weekend, this is not a partisan issue.

It's shocking to me how many on the left and many on the right want to turn everything into a partisan issue, how desperate they are to attack each other instead of trying to bring Canadians together.

For me, as a Liberal who has been trying to get more people to pay more attention to security concerns, this is an excellent opportunity to further educate and bring people on board, for the sake of our collective security. Idiots who prefer to alienate and attack their fellow citizens are not only polarizing Canadians and making it more difficult to achieve a consensus on this, but in my mind acting very unpatriotically.

Ted
Cerberus
canadiancerberus.blogspot.com

Posted by: Ted at June 5, 2006 10:12 AM

...it is scary to think people voted for him, let alone his party...

Posted by: tomax7 at June 5, 2006 10:13 AM

Layton is a cookoo, but so is our priminister.
He's busy deporting people, in an attempt to make himself look good. The Immigration system is a joke, “here's a concept (Reform).”
Why is it the head of immigration is appointed and not elected. Why is it there’s a quota system based on numbers and not on getting the bad guy. We deport people because they have a wrong school address on the application. Mean-while we have over 1500 known criminals in Toronto that will never get deported. Criminals have guns, you can get shot, also you have to find the bad guy and miss your quota." Stop playing games."

Posted by: Peter at June 5, 2006 10:17 AM

You're right Ted. We've only heard half of Jack's story here. The half that is missing is Jack's suggested replacement for the process and legislation is proposes to throw out.

If he is suggesting we need no such devices, then we can debate the effects of that course of action.

If he has a suggested replacement, let's hear it and debate it.

I would suggest that if we are going to discuss intelligence and patriotism here, we spend a bit of time considering why Jack would not do the very obvious intelligent and patriotic thing and table his alternative at the same time he calls for dismissal of important processes and legislation, rather than simply pander to a visible minority voting block for the purposes of attaining political power.

Posted by: Shaken at June 5, 2006 10:23 AM

This may be true or it may be an urban legend, but what the heck it's worth a try.

Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.

Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.

All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.

They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil.

Posted by: Largs at June 5, 2006 10:23 AM

"Don't talk," Ms. Khadr yelled to one suspect's brother... (Notice the use of the politically correct "Ms. Khadr". Such "sensitivity"; so much "tolerance" of Islamist terrorists. Appalling.)

The Islamist enemy within Canada:


Canada's hard-line Muslims show up in court to support terror suspects

Canada's hard-line Muslims can seem a pretty tight-knit group at times. As a long line of completely new terrorism suspects were being shuffled in and out of the prisoner's box, there were many familiar faces looking on in the courtroom. via nealenews.com

"but they never appeared extremist."

COLIN FREEZE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

Extract:


Ms. Khadr, who once expressed an admiration for suicide bombers on national TV, sat looking at the prisoner's box, speaking Arabic with Aly Hindy, a controversial fundamentalist preacher.

Having had many of their own run-ins with the RCMP and CSIS, Ms. Khadr and Mr. Hindy were intent on doing what they could for the families of the newly accused.

One such man was Tariq Abdelhaleem.

"Hello," he said, looking shattered beyond words, as a reporter approached. "It's my son."

This was stunning. I had gotten to know Mr. Abdelhaleem last year, after he issued a controversial fatwa against too much innovation in Islam.

The imam was worried that Toronto's Muslims were not sticking to scripture and were also becoming unmindful of the real problems in the world.

"Our Muslim brothers and sisters are dying in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya and other parts of the world," he had written at the time on his website.

"The puppet systems that are in power in the Islamic world are collaborating with the Crusaders and Zionists to keep the ummah [Muslim community] under oppression."

I wrote an article on the fatwa and quoted a more moderate Muslim leader as saying that the decree was "stupid." Mr. Abdelhaleem was stung by this. A few months later, he invited me over for tea and cookies, and we had a pleasant chat about religion in his Mississauga home.

It was in the basement that I met his son Shareef, and several of his friends, all young professionals eager to express their own views to a non-Muslim writer. They, too, were outraged by the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. And they wanted to discuss racial profiling.

They were all upset, but they never appeared extremist. Now, one year later, 30-year-old Shareef Abdelhaleem was chained to other suspects, his anxious eyes meeting his father's wounded gaze in court. ...


As for Zaynab Khadr, she wasn't saying much. The family's exploits in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Canada are by now legendary. Her father, a friend of Osama bin Laden, was killed by the Pakistani government. Her eldest brother was arrested last year by the RCMP as the United States seeks his extradition on terrorism charges. Her second-youngest brother is awaiting murder charges in the legal limbo that is Guantanamo Bay.

In court, Ms. Khadr seemed content to look after two other young women also wearing full, black head-to-toe Islamic dress. One of them yelped as a teenager appeared in the prisoner's box, pointing out he was without his prescription eyewear. The judge said he'd try to make sure the suspect would get his glasses. And then he vowed that every suspect would get a Koran, as consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Like everyone else who entered the courtroom, Ms. Khadr and her friends left under the gaze of a gauntlet of assault-rifle-toting police officers, and were swarmed by reporters who asked them questions.

"Don't talk," Ms. Khadr yelled to one suspect's brother as she and her friend made their way to her Green 1997 Pontiac minivan.

And with that, they drove away. ... more
http://www.paulding.net/bin/url.cgi/13304.14

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 10:24 AM

Well Dawg, let's look at the issue of Security Certificates:

"Certificates have been part of Canada's immigration legislation since 1978. Given the serious consequences of issuing certificates, the process has been used judiciously over the years and is employed only in exceptional cases. Since 1991, 27 certificates have been issued."

And this from the government's own website. I'm sorry, but in a population of 33 million, the fact that these certificates have only been used 27 times (?!?!?!) in the past 15 years really does not scare me.

So, in regards to the general consensus that Jack Layton's opposition to Bill C-36 is ridiculous... well... if 27 times in 15 years is a horrendous abuse of authority in your or McLa-La-Land's minds, I won't bother trying to change them.

In a perfect world we wouldn't need them. Do you honestly think this is a perfect world?

Posted by: Surecure at June 5, 2006 10:26 AM

OK Ted, you make a good point and you as a Liberal seem to be onside that this is about trust. Who can be trusted with our security and holding the nation together during the gathering storm?

Let’s not feud like the GOP and Democrats or we could all get killed. I’ll try to stay more focused; Kate’s post was actually about City Councillor Jack.

On December 7, 2005, in the midst of a federal election, Jack Layton announced that he backed the Clarity Act. This was in contrast to comments made in the 2004 election where he said that the Act accentuates divisions in Canada. He attributed his newfound support to understanding the constitutionality of the Act.

The Clarity Act, which was actually the brainchild of Preston Manning and Stephen Harper, was passed in 1999 and was probably Chrétien’s only legislative achievement. Jack Layton, City Councillor mentality that he has, finally understood it in 2005.

In the interests of equal opportunity, that other national lightweight, Joe Clark also opposed the Clarity Act. Maybe he still doesn’t understand it?

Jack and Joe and the Dippers could never be trusted to govern in a dangerous world where democracy is fragile because of necessary impediments to freedom (security certificates) for security reason.

Posted by: nomdenet at June 5, 2006 10:33 AM

You got the Ben Franklin quote wrong, He said "essential" liberty vs the "illusion of security" I've seen that quote misused before. I'll try to find the whole quote and put it up but I have seen it corrected many times. War has been declared on us for some time now, some groups in our society will never accept this reality.

Posted by: Harry at June 5, 2006 10:33 AM

"Mark":

I understand what you are trying to say but your terminology is confused. There are only two groups of people legally allowed to live in Canada: citizens, and non-citizens with the appropriate immigration status for residency.

The term "subject," which has more or less fallen out of use, refers to all Canadian citizens; we are all subjects of HM The Queen.

As for treason, citizens of Canada are subject to the laws of Canada.

A non-citizen obviously cannot be held for treason. But they can be held on criminal charges and, if so decided, their residency can be cancelled forthwith followed by deportation.

Posted by: JJM at June 5, 2006 10:37 AM

Perfect world? Of course not. But, to give your own argument a half-twist, Surecure, if only 27 certificates have been issued, then it shouldn't be that difficult to replace them with something a little more, ah, Canadian. You know: like being able to face your accusers. Cross-examine witnesses. See the evidence against you. Hva e fair trial. That sort of thing.

Funny how such a demand incurs the wrath of the oh-so-democratic lovers of freedom on the Right.

Due process? You can't handle due process!, with apologies to Jack Nicholson.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 10:40 AM

I was wondering if anyone caught this statement posted on Canoe News yesterday:

"The idea that people would be planning a bombing in our country is simply shocking. And I'm simply thrilled that it looks at though there was a successful co-ordinated effort by all of our security personnel to put a stop to it before it could happen." - Federal NDP Leader Jack Layton.

@sshat! Never occured to him, in his back yard? Wake up Jack!

Posted by: MaryM at June 5, 2006 10:43 AM

Mark Collins, I agree that the charge of treason should be more front and centre in these circumstances.

Posted by: nomdenet at June 5, 2006 10:44 AM

Here's some stuff on the Ben Franklin quote, which is "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

http://www.futureofthebook.com/stories/storyReader$605

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 10:44 AM

Intersting read, and here i was giving credit to the Arabs for making the numbers we now use 1-2-3...

A letter written to Ms. Fiorina, ex-head of HP.

http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm

More reading:
http://www.aina.org/aol/peter/brief.htm

And Smiling Jack want's us to ignore a real and present threat? What is the colour in his sky?

Posted by: tomax7 at June 5, 2006 10:47 AM

The issue isn't the particulars of this or that clause of this or that legislation, be it security certificates or anything else.

The issue is do you recognize the threat that Islam poses to our civilization and are you on our side or not ?

Do you stand with the Canadian people against muslim terrorists or do you spend all your energy trying to rational and defend muslims.

Do you support or oppose EVERY measure that the government takes to protect us.

Do you spend your energy on the side of our culture or do you spend all your energy running around complaining about 'racial profiling'

As for the dic heads whining about civil liberties, I have news for you, Islam has already taken your civil liberties, no newspaper in the west will again dare to print Muhammed cartoons. With one fell swoop of riots and inspired terror muslims have already taken more civil liberties from us then Hitler-Bush-Harper can ever dream of.

The only good thing out of all this is that the jihad will completely destroy all the pet liberal causes of the left like gay rights and equality for woman. Wait until Sharia law really gets going here then you'll get what you deserve and you liberals will have brought it on yourselves by your stand now.

Posted by: john Galt at June 5, 2006 10:48 AM

If anything awful happens in Canada in the next few years, you can bet that fat bitch Khadr and the pack of wolves in the court supporting their fellow jihadis will most likely be involved.

What the hell has happened to our country, that we allow these jackals in and even while they threaten us, give them succour?

Something HAS to change....as in, NO ONE with extremist religious beliefs, especially Wahhabi Muslims, should be allowed into this country anymore. Period.

Posted by: SonsofMonkeysandSwine at June 5, 2006 10:50 AM

The only good thing out of all this is that the jihad will completely destroy all the pet liberal causes of the left like gay rights and equality for woman.

So, then, the logical conclusion to draw is that conservatives should be supporting the jihadists, to further all their pet causes. I think I understand.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 10:54 AM

dawg you and all the muslims in this country belong in the same place, AT THE END OF A ROPE!!!

Posted by: FREE at June 5, 2006 10:58 AM

Oh, that's good Dawg. Canadian? They are Canadian! Are you suggesting Canadian security certificates aren't Canadian? Where exactly do you think their origin is then? (I have a feeling my psychic relay isn't even going to be needed for this answer)

As for your paranoia over security certificates, considering their complete dearth of use and the fact that all security certificates require judicial review... well... I'm still not shaking in my boots.

I mean, if Security Certificates were used against our citizens (which they are not) then only 0.0000045 % of our population would be effected every year. Ooohh... scary stuff here. Never mind the fact that you'd be 37 times more likely to be hit by lightning than be the subject of a security certificate.

Posted by: Surecure at June 5, 2006 11:00 AM

Dawg:

More "Canadian" eh?

Yeah, sure, we should be giving stuff like that to folks like this. The people involved in this are usually not Canadian, not citizens, and/or not committed in any way to the ideals of Canadian and Western society. And don't proceed to give me all that horseshit about civil rights regardless of nationality here: we're talking about trying to get/keep out foreign baddies who want to kill our children, our grandmas, our dogs, our cats, our entire way of life.

Ostriches, the lot of you!

Posted by: SonsofMonkeysandSwine at June 5, 2006 11:00 AM

I mean, if Security Certificates were used against our citizens (which they are not) then only 0.0000045 % of our population would be effected every year. Ooohh... scary stuff here. Never mind the fact that you'd be 37 times more likely to be hit by lightning than be the subject of a security certificate.

Your point is getting more obscure by the second. If these certificates are so all-fired unimportant, then why get your knickers in a twist when Layton wants to get rid of them?

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 11:09 AM

dawg you and all the muslims in this country belong in the same place, AT THE END OF A ROPE!!!

And there you have what others hear are too self-controlled to say out loud.

Conservatives.

Supporting lynching.

In Canada.

I'm not making this up.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 11:11 AM

"Others here."

And yeah, that means you.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 11:12 AM

Dawg,

To paraphrase your paraphrasing of Jack:

Facts? You can't handle the facts!

There is due process in the security certificates.

First and foremost that every certificate must be approved by a judge. In other words, the government must take its case to a judge and convince that judge that the target of the certificate is a threat.

There have been several cases where the judge has rejected the government's assertions. There have also been a case or two so far where the Judge has agreed with the threat and let the creep out of jail anyway (the logic of which escapes me...)

You need to learn that due process is more than a trial in open court. The reason for the secrecy in many of these cases is that we rely on spies and intelligence to catch the bad guys. If we had to testify in open court and reveal our sources, methods and Intel, we'd cripple our ability to catch the bad guys and end up with no way to defend ourselves.

We're not talking assassinations here. There are safeguards in place. There is due process. Frankly, you're out to lunch on the subject.

And save the "we need to be more Canadian" crap. It's tiresome. Every country has to defend itself. Canada is not an anomaly. We have the same set of interests as everyone else. We aren't boy scouts or living fairy tales. Grow up.

Posted by: Warwick at June 5, 2006 11:15 AM

My point is clear as day. Security Certificates are so rarely used that they offer no real threat to our freedoms.

"If these certificates are so all-fired unimportant, then why get your knickers in a twist when Layton wants to get rid of them?"

Who said anything about them being unimportant? I was pointing out their frequency, not their importance.

I guess math isn't your strong point.

I'm still curious where you think the origin of Canadian Security Certficates is, if not Canada.

Posted by: Surecure at June 5, 2006 11:20 AM

I see the brown shirts are out in full force here so I'll just leave a little reminder, that if we didn't have troops in their homeland we might not have their guys here, planning their attacks?

I know I don't thin like you so I'm the enemy. lol

Posted by: neutralsam at June 5, 2006 11:23 AM

SonsofMonkeysandSwine:

Actually, you are wrong about "people involved in this are usually not Canadian, not citizens". Dangerously wrong in fact.

In the London terror bombings and in this plot, we are witnessing a different kind of terrorism than what led to 9/11. The 9/11 terrorists were all foreign nationals living in the US for years and trained abroad. This is truly a "homegrown" version. Like the London bombers, it seems that all/most of these young/younger men are children or grandchildren of immigrants, but were born and grew up here. The anti-immigrant crowd can coo all it wants about stopping the flow of Muslim immigrants, but from all reports this isn't going to stop the few radical young Muslims who are getting brainwashed by the fundamentalist Muslim citizens.

And before anyone starts blaming multiculturalism, that too would be a dangerous mistake. Britain, Holland, France, Canada and the US all have taken very different approaches to integretating/assimilating immigrants into their cultures. Britain isolated them and 52 died in bombings last summer. Holland has tried to let them be who they are and there have been assisinations. France has tried to force assimilation and there were weeks of riots. Canada has had a multiculturalism policy and we have some who have plotted to bomb our institutions.

A focus on immigration isn't going to solve the problem. To me, these terrorists are like the Ernst Zundels, Oklahoma bombers and the militant militias that were a growing internal terrorist threat in the 1990s. It is part of a culture war against liberal democracy.

In the 1990s, we beefed up our policy police enforcement, investigations and spying on those radical hate groups. We were relentless in identifying the specific leaders and enforcing our existing laws. We enforced our gun and hate laws. Today because of that, we just avoided our own Oklahoma.

Ted
Cerberus

Posted by: Ted at June 5, 2006 11:24 AM

"I see the brown shirts are out in full force here so I'll just leave a little reminder, that if we didn't have troops in their homeland we might not have their guys here, planning their attacks?"

Well neutralsam, if Al Qaeda hadn't killed some of our citizens on September 11th and inflicted incredible harm on our security and economy, maybe we wouldn't be over there... ya think?

Posted by: Surecure at June 5, 2006 11:28 AM

Like I say...

Leftists often fail to think things through... they fail to consider consequences.

Cases in point: the miserable failures of communism and liberalism.

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at June 5, 2006 11:31 AM

Neutralsam said:
"I see the brown shirts are out in full force here so I'll just leave a little reminder, that if we didn't have troops in their homeland we might not have their guys here, planning their attacks?"

You should probably do a little more research before posting. The RCMP has been watching these people for the last 2 years. Well before we had a significant presence in Afghanistan. Also Osama listed us as a target well before then as well. You are naive if you believe that by pulling out of Afghanistan we will eliminate these types of terrorist attacks. Also if your researched you might also find that we are not in their "homeland". How many of the arrested were form Afghanistan or do you just group all of the Muslims together in one big group.

Posted by: Paul from Vancouver at June 5, 2006 11:32 AM

Kate,I love the photo!

A perfect caption for Jack in this pose as he seemingly reaches a brief moment of clarity:

Oh my God!...I can't believe I just said that!!!

I have long believed Jack is the most dangerous politician we have in Canada.As the official leader of the loopiest lefties,he can say WHATEVER to get his flock excited,but fully realizes he will NEVER be in the position to have to practise what he preached.

Posted by: Canadian Observer at June 5, 2006 11:33 AM

This must be a wakeup call for all Canadians that terrorism is being bred and trained militarily on Canadian soil. Shall we blithely defend our democratic rights, while the terrorists exploit it with their activities and plotting??

Layton and the muslim leaders are trying to tie us up in our own feelings of guilt so that terrorists can be free to prepare for their holy jihad ... death to the infidels ... plain and simple.

How should we react to the terrorists ... offer them our love, treasure and tolerance as they flaunt our democracy ???

Tell us what you think now, Jack Layton ???

Posted by: Observer at June 5, 2006 11:36 AM

Hopefully voters in clueless Toronto will take notice. I have little faith though.

Posted by: NICK at June 5, 2006 11:46 AM

Ted, are we all on the same page as to what multiculturalism means? I doubt it.

I’m all for immigration and diversity, particularly diversity of thought. But multiculturalism is a very regressive concept because it represents the academic chanting of cultural relativism. It’s a continuation of socialism, which espouses that everyone is equal – they aren’t. People deserve an equal chance but outcomes simply aren’t equal. Neither are cultures equal. Some cultures, based on tribalism, should be allowed to just die out. But they won’t because despots, rich with oil, keep them alive for their own despotic ends.

Multiculturalism needs to be debated in Parliament ASAP. Where we need to end up is with a new pledge of allegiance by Canadians, by children in schools etc. That pledge needs to include statements such as:
Tolerance for all religions
The equality of men and women
The separation of church/mosque and state

If anyone has trouble with these values, they aren’t Canadians. Cultural relativism doesn’t work because some cultures have not evolved for centuries. Many immigrants know that and that’s why they left their hellhole in the third world. They are amazed we Canadians won’t stand up for the values that made us a great country.

BTW, France has not “forced assimilation”. The native French aren’t interested in assimilation; the native Frenchman views himself as a superior species. That’s the problem.

Posted by: nomdenet at June 5, 2006 11:48 AM

I don't want to downplay the seriousness of what just transpired but the 'revelation' of terrorists being bred and trained militarily on Canadian soil isn't new.

Up at Caroline, AB we got the neo-nazi's white arian nations camp and to the south is Montana with their armed camps.

Guess difference is we can somewhat rationalize and dialogue with the guys who dress up as wanna be Nazi's.

Posted by: tomax7 at June 5, 2006 11:50 AM

With the spin in the media re a Sting, my bet is that all those arrested will eventually get a slap on the wrist (maybe) and let out to plan again. Next time they will probably be successful. Think how many people actually voted for the ndp, and how many provincial governments and city council are ndp. Scarry. Will any of this change the minds of toronto voters, I doubt it, even when many of the targets were in their center of the universe. There has to be a good side to this story-at least these kids learned to read and type in the ont. school system. Al Gore is all over giving canada a bad time re Kyoto and global warming. Isn't that interferring in canadaian affairs. If Bush did it there would be outrage. Also, Al claimed to have invented the internet, and this plot used the internet, should we blame Gore for this plot. Still waiting for Parrish to stamp on an OBL doll. Question period and Newman should be interesting today. Again, where is the money coming from to pay the lawyers.

Posted by: maryT at June 5, 2006 12:02 PM

Dawg is a well known Anti-Israel bigot and NDP windbag. His loonie left ideology coupled with his hardline support of the "Palestinian" cause has so twisted his mind that he is beyond hope of recovery.

Posted by: Alain Dupuis at June 5, 2006 12:03 PM

so neutralsam if we didn't have troops in their countries they wouldn't have done 911?

What bull.

We didn't start the fires W would have been more than happy to let the taliban rock on unharmed had they not touched americans but every time they blew an embassy they became bolder till thousands died in on sept 11 and they didn't actually launch that because bush was in Iraq.

Are you date challenged? Libs took them in out of idiocy and still even with affirmative action jobs they want to kill.

What kind of a country do you want my children to live in?

Hang the guilty and send the others home to free them from canadian opression.

Posted by: DrWright at June 5, 2006 12:03 PM

neutralsam said: "I know I don't thin like you so I'm the enemy. lol"

"thin"? The word is fatuous, dhimmy. ...

The Impeccable Timing of the Loony Left

At Small Dead Animals, video of Canada’s leftist NDP leader Jack Layton pandering to radical Islamic front group The Islamic Society of North America on May 20, calling for Canada to throw out its anti-terror legislation: Timing Is Everything.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 12:06 PM

And this is why he is not in office. Unfortunately his constituents have a herd mentality. I watched his speeches during the elections campains, and his were the most emotionalist and least issue-based out of all the candidates... something that appears to herds.

Him pandering to the Islamic vote to get elected reminds me of that smelly sasquatch George Galloway

Posted by: Alex at June 5, 2006 12:07 PM

Breath-taking stupidity. Where is Jack these days? Would he, as an opposition leader, have been privy to knowledge of this investigation, when he made this speech? Or was he kept in the dark because he's so stupid?

I won't feed the troll except to say, good one Paul and Surecure.

Posted by: Cheri at June 5, 2006 12:08 PM

Ted: The UK did not "isolate" immigrant communities. Some chose to isolate themselves (many Muslims), others did not (many Caribbeans). In fact the UK has had a multiculteral approach--similar to Canada's but not so doctrinaire--for some time. It's now, esp. after the London bombings, that they are really questioning that policy. See:

"Goodbye to multiculturalism, but welcome to what?"
http://www.ippr.org.uk/articles/?id=1835

Mark
Ottawa

Posted by: Mark Collins at June 5, 2006 12:12 PM

Ted,
RE:"In the 1990s, we beefed up our policy police enforcement, investigations and spying on those radical hate groups. We were relentless in identifying the specific leaders and enforcing our existing laws."
Are you suggesting that the potential threats posed by Zundel-type groups was equivalent to what western countries now face, in scope and harm?
Also, your case for pointing out the failures of other nations' policies at assimilation reinforces the position that should be undertaken by all western democracies: The complete withdrawal of all interests (other than mutual economic transactions) from countries demonstrably hostile to us. In other words a Sharon style disengagement from the M.E. This would also include a thorough review of our immigration policies with respect to those countries.
The time has come for those societies to examine themselves without the benefit of our altruistic yet masochistic benevolence.

Posted by: MRV at June 5, 2006 12:12 PM

Just read an article by Marck Steyn, “It’s the Demography Stupid: The real reason the West is in danger of extinction”, which appeared in Wall Street Journal Wednesday, January 4, 2006. Given the comments today on Jack’s latest BS, Steyn’s thoughts on “Islamic” terrorism excerpted from the above article is seems appropriately quoted below:

“We know it's not really a "war on terror." Nor is it, at heart, a war against Islam, or even "radical Islam." The Muslim faith, whatever its merits for the believers, is a problematic business for the rest of us. There are many trouble spots around the world, but as a general rule, it's easy to make an educated guess at one of the participants: Muslims vs. Jews in "Palestine," Muslims vs. Hindus in Kashmir, Muslims vs. Christians in Africa, Muslims vs. Buddhists in Thailand, Muslims vs. Russians in the Caucasus, Muslims vs. backpacking tourists in Bali. Like the environmentalists, these guys think globally but act locally.

Yet while Islamism is the enemy, it's not what this thing's about. Radical Islam is an opportunistic infection, like AIDS: It's not the HIV that kills you, it's the pneumonia you get when your body's too weak to fight it off. When the jihadists engage with the U.S. military, they lose--as they did in Afghanistan and Iraq. If this were like World War I with those fellows in one trench and us in ours facing them over some boggy piece of terrain, it would be over very quickly. Which the smarter Islamists have figured out. They know they can never win on the battlefield, but they figure there's an excellent chance they can drag things out until Western civilization collapses in on itself and Islam inherits by default.

That's what the war's about: our lack of civilizational confidence. As a famous Arnold Toynbee quote puts it: "Civilizations die from suicide, not murder"--as can be seen throughout much of "the Western world" right now. The progressive agenda--lavish social welfare, abortion, secularism, multiculturalism--is collectively the real suicide bomb. Take multiculturalism. The great thing about multiculturalism is that it doesn't involve knowing anything about other cultures--the capital of Bhutan, the principal exports of Malawi, who cares? All it requires is feeling good about other cultures. It's fundamentally a fraud, and I would argue was subliminally accepted on that basis. Most adherents to the idea that all cultures are equal don't want to live in anything but an advanced Western society. Multiculturalism means your kid has to learn some wretched native dirge for the school holiday concert instead of getting to sing "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" or that your holistic masseuse uses techniques developed from Native American spirituality, but not that you or anyone you care about should have to live in an African or Native American society. It's a quintessential piece of progressive humbug …”

Posted by: Gary at June 5, 2006 12:12 PM

Jack Layton is a disgrace to Canada and Parliament. He should get in his box and close the lid instead of popping up with stupid ideation. His logic is bizarre and SCARY and I can't understand for the life of me why people vote for him. Hopefully as he continues with his crazy ideas the people will notice this and put him out to pasture. (Can't expect much from NDPEERS led by Jack). Very Angry at him and his caucus.

Posted by: mark at June 5, 2006 12:14 PM

Briefly, Surecure, because I certainly don't want to interrupt the extreme-right circle-jerk going on in this thread, I understand your point that, because so few people are having their civil liberties suspended, we shouldn't give a damn, and should call people names who do.

But my point was badly misunderstood by you. Of course security certificates are "canadian," in the sense that they originated here. But they fly in the face of Canadian values and principles--you know, like natural justice, that sort of thing.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 12:15 PM

Nomdenet:

France has indeed taken the strongest position at requiring assimilation of Muslims in order to be full participating citizens. No headresses of any kind in their schools is just the most well-known example.

The point is, you can focus on multiculturalism if you want. But with or without it, we would still have radical Muslims planning to kill Canadians. So to focus on multiculturalism as a means to improve our security and stop terrorism is a potentially dangerous distraction.

States without any kind of multiculturalism policy are facing the same problems as Canada.

Ted
Cerberus

Posted by: Ted at June 5, 2006 12:18 PM


Dawg,

I think you ignored my point so you wouldn't have to admit that the certificates DO involve due process.

Natural Justice is a universal concept not related to Canadian Nationalism.

I really hate it when you far-left wankers go off about "Canadian Values."

How about this then:

Susan Sarandon is an American
Michael Moore is an American
Kerry, Pelosi, Sean Penn. All Americans.

To the left, what is American is un-Canadian.

So if you sound like all the US lefties, are you then un-Canadian because you spew out "American-Style" lefty stupidity?

"Canadian Values" are not left-wing jerkoff values.

Canadian values are the sort of thing that led large number of our grandfathers to enlist in the military to go overseas to fight the Nazis. That's Canadian Values.

Marx was not Canadian. Neither was Mao or Che.

Posted by: Warwick at June 5, 2006 12:24 PM

Maybe there are some serious concerns about "security certificates". I would be wary of anything the criminal Libs have done. But why did he choose the Islamic Society of North America to announce these concerns? All at once any concern that he may be right has been destroyed. The problem with this damned self-serving political sh-t is that he may have successfully scuttled any serious examination of the issue of ours rights as they exist under this legislation that none of us seems to understand fully. BTW, remember Layton and Chow's living arrangements in the 80's and that they were caught out? I'm sure he's changed.

Posted by: mike s at June 5, 2006 12:25 PM

Interesting that Jack Layton, while pandering for Muslim votes for the NDP, advocated repealing the very law that empowered Canadian intelligence and law enforcement to catch this gang of Islamofascist terrorists.

In which case, Canadian intelligence and law enforcement lacking the necessary investigatory tools and authority, the terrorists' planned atrocities would have taken place, killing God knows how many people.

OK, for the benefit of our lefty trolls, maybe they're not terrorists-excuse me, "militants"...no, "activists".

And, yes, by no means are all Muslims terrorists. But it IS a fact that across the globe, almost all terrorists ARE radical Muslims.

All around the borders of Dar Islam (the world of Islam), there is conflict and bloodshed. Besides Islamists vs. the United States, there's:
Islamists vs. Secular Europeans;
Islamists vs. Algerian authorities and non-fundamentalist Algerians;
Islamists vs. Israel and Jews;
Islamists vs. Afghans trying to build a free Afghanistan;
Islamists vs. Iraqis trying to build a free, democratic Iraq;
Islamists in Chechnya vs. Russia and the Russian people;
Pakistan vs. India in Kashmir;
Islamists vs. non-Muslims in Malaysia;
Islamists vs. the non-Muslim minorities in Indonesia;
Islamists vs. the non-Muslim majority and government in the Philippines.

Where have I left out? Practically everywhere in the world where Muslims interface with non-Muslims, there's at best severe tensions and at worst outright terrorism campaigns. Now Canada knows it's on that list as well. And yet we're told that Islam is "a religion of peace"?

Posted by: Dave at June 5, 2006 12:27 PM

"The anti-immigrant crowd can coo all it wants about stopping the flow of Muslim immigrants, but from all reports this isn't going to stop the few radical young Muslims who are getting brainwashed by the fundamentalist Muslim citizens."

Well, then, why, in God's name bring anymore Muslims into Canada or any Western country for that matter? So what if they are recent immigrants or homegrown. The only difference is that the problem is already there or yet to come. The common denominator is Islam. It doesn't matter if they are 3 generations in Detroit, London or the ME, their religion spawns the terror.

Your defense of the multi-culti garbage flies in the face that "Islam has bloody borders" as Bernard Lewis has written. Take look around you, Ted, from Canada, to the US, to France, to Holland, to Spain, to Australia, and to Russia and ask yourself what western native populations are feeling happy and secure with the Muslims in their midst? If we have to review all of the incidents that would make native non-Muslims feel threatened at this time in history than you are an idiot.

"A focus on immigration isn't going to solve the problem."

You've got to be kidding.

Why should any country destroy it's security and harmony by seeking immigrants that have at core an incompatible worldview, whose religion is intolerant and insists on non-assimilation, that denigrates females and has jihad as a principle?

What's the liberal answer to that?

Posted by: penny at June 5, 2006 12:30 PM

Holland is getting real about immigrants now. They have to take a course/training, including watching gay guys & lesbos suck face, they have to sign documents saying they will learn dutch, will integrate etc, etc.

Mu Dutch friends tell me that there are immigrants now walking away from the process, quite pissed that they aren't allowed on the Dutch gravy train because they are fueled by hatred of thatwhich Holland holds precious.


Posted by: Fred at June 5, 2006 12:36 PM

Interesting, all these invectives levelled against the NDP and Liberals. Reads remarkably like an Ann Coulter screed against democracy - and its "liberal" supporters (those demons who want such vile things as free speech and human rights).

Seems anyone who supports gay rights or women's rights gets lumped into the same basket as Islamic fundamentalists. Now there's a wild connection - they're diametrically opposed, but why let logic stop you?

And why the name calling? Can't we have a debate without puerile terms like "fat bitch"? That only discredits the writer, not the target. Adults don't need to descend to such terms to make a point.

Posted by: Etaoin Shrdlu at June 5, 2006 12:37 PM

Ever wonder why neo-nazi's and white supremacists don't scare you as much as Islamic-arabs?

Has anyone read the 14 points of Fascism?

Anybody here have any of the following predispositions? :

1. the desire for powerful and continuing nationalism

2. distain for human rights--because fear of enemies and need for security. Look the other way when human rights abuse happen.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause--rally around this Islamo-fascism idea and create a patriotic frenzy.

4.Supremacy of the Military--military given disproportionate funding. soldiers and military are glamourized.

5.Rampant sexism--male dominated gov't. which opposes abortion, is homophobic, has an anti-gay policy and legislation as well as a national policy.

6 Obsession with crime and punishment.

7. Distain for intellectuals and the Arts

8.Religion and government intertwine

9.Controlled mass media--government controls, manipulates

10 Corporate power protected

11. Labour suppressed

12. Rampant cronyism and corruption

13 Fraudulent elections


14. obsession with national security


If many or all of the 14 sound good to you then you know what to call yourself now. You are now or are becoming...Fascist


Posted by: steve d. at June 5, 2006 12:42 PM

I think you ignored my point so you wouldn't have to admit that the certificates DO involve due process.

They don't involve anything like due process. No right to one's day in court, no right to see the evidence, no right to cross-examine...why not not delve into history and admit that the Star Chamber had "due process" too? That would be that much more of a distortion.

Natural Justice is a universal concept not related to Canadian Nationalism.

You're correct that natural justice is not specifically "Canadian." But, together with all of those other things I mentioned, and you should include the presumption of innocence in the mix, the notion of a fair trial and equality before the law is Canadian enough for me.

It's for things like that that my father went to was against the Nazis. Not for closed courts and secret justice.

Marx was not Canadian. Neither was Mao or Che.

And neither (to descend to your level for a moment) is George W. Bush.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 12:50 PM

The point is, you can focus on multiculturalism if you want. But with or without it, we would still have radical Muslims planning to kill Canadian."

Right, Ted, out of your own illogical mouth muti-culti garbage is useless either way. They still plan to kill us.

Do you really think the headdress policy demonstrates a big milestone in the assimilation problems in France? Perhaps you've missed the riots in the Muslim suburbs of Paris and other French cities? The headdress policy had nothing to do with the riots.

Posted by: penny at June 5, 2006 12:50 PM

"...I understand your point that, because so few people are having their civil liberties suspended, we shouldn't give a damn, and should call people names who do... (security certificates) fly in the face of Canadian values and principles--you know, like natural justice, that sort of thing."

This is where we differ Dawg. Your "knee-jerk" reaction to people who agree with the application of Security Certificates is that they don't care about people's civil liberties or justice.

You are 100% dead wrong.

If there was no judicial element to the certificates, I would be against them. But each one is subject to non-governmentat judicial review. That means that neither the police, the RCMP, the military nor the government could ask for such a certificate arbitrarily.

Unlike you, I -- and several people here -- see a need for balance between the safeguarding of civil liberties in Canada for a small number of mostly non-Canadians (1.8 people per year) against the civil liberties in Canada of the majority of actual Canadians (33 million people per year). It's not that we don't care about civil liberties... quite the opposite. We care more about civil liberties than those who would sacrifice the security of our country to those who would come in here and take advantage of our freedoms to cause harm.

If this world were as easy to frame as your opinion seems to demonstrate you believe it to be, then I would be totally against security certificates. But when you have people who want to launch SECRET terrorist camps... and plan SECRET attacks against our country... and have SECRET sub-groups who would take up the plans in the event of a failure of the original groups...

...well... maybe your government might just decide to be a little SECRETive themselves.

That's what it takes to create security. If you can't understand that, then nothing can help you.

And this is why I thank the maker Jack Layton isn't in charge. He doesn't get it... just like you.

Posted by: Surecure at June 5, 2006 12:51 PM

Penny,

Here's the liberal answer...

The policies on immigration in place today were set many years ago. Long before 911 and muslim based when muslims were just like any other persecuted (or so we thought) religous/immigrant group.

It is clear these policies have to be changed to reflect what we know of islam today.

The pressing question now is... what is Harper going to do about it without throwing gasoline on the fire?

Posted by: Liberal Larry at June 5, 2006 12:52 PM

I think you ignored my point so you wouldn't have to admit that the certificates DO involve due process.

They don't involve anything like due process. No right to one's day in court, no right to see the evidence, no right to cross-examine...why not not delve into history and admit that the Star Chamber had "due process" too? That would be that much more of a distortion.

Natural Justice is a universal concept not related to Canadian Nationalism.

You're correct that natural justice is not specifically "Canadian." But, together with all of those other things I mentioned, and you should include the presumption of innocence in the mix, the notion of a fair trial and equality before the law is Canadian enough for me.

It's for things like that that my father went to war against the Nazis. Not for closed courts and secret justice.

Marx was not Canadian. Neither was Mao or Che.

And neither (to descend to your level for a moment) is George W. Bush.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 12:52 PM

Penny, as usual, not getting it.

I said you can focus all you want on immigration laws or multiculturalism, but it won't do anything to stop the current crop of Canadian citizens who are radical haters or are in the process of being radicalized.

I'm not taking any position on immigration or multiculturalism here other than to say that if we focus on changing those laws and policies right now, we won't do a thing to solve the problems we have right now.

Children of immigrants are not immigrants. You can't deport them anywhere. Ban all immigration of any kind and you haven't begun to address the problem we have with these young men. Lots of studies show that immigrants are hard working and law-abiding. New studies are confirming that but showing that it is their children who take for granted what their parents got for them by coming here. So we have to deal with that.

Fred at 12:36 points us in some direction toward that. We have to invest more in education and entrenching Canadian values that we can all agree on like freedom of speech, conscience, equality of men and women, life/liberty/security, etc. We don't do nearly enough of that for anyone let alone those who are ripe to be radicalized.

So yes Penny, focusing on who else gets to come to Canada does absolutely nothing to deal with the problem of who is already here.

Ted
Cerberus

Posted by: Ted at June 5, 2006 12:56 PM

Hey steve arnt those all liberano ideals?

Posted by: FREE at June 5, 2006 12:57 PM

Nomdenet; well said re: assimilation. Just what I was thinking as I listen to Dave Rutherford and his guest, Syed Soharwardy, Muslims Against Terrorism. A caller asked why there isn't more out-rage, more protest from their group. Are they too scared of their own community to speak up?

Seems to me a good way to prove your peacefullness, willingness, and gratitude would be to become Canadian in every sense of the word.

Posted by: Cheri at June 5, 2006 12:58 PM

Wow.... nothing like locking up a few wanna-be Muslim head-choppers to flush out the hard-left dip-shits in the crowd!

The sniveling and wailing is enough to make anyone sick - left wingnuts crying for the wanna-be killers of Canadian citizens. Do leftards ever say enough is enough, or is the bar simply dropped lower again after every atrocity? Pathetic...

Posted by: Slim at June 5, 2006 12:58 PM

Etaoin: Care to give even one example of how Ann Coulter is against democracy? And you complain about ad hominem attacks? As to free speech. you are exercising it here. And by the way "free speech" refers to the right to criticize the state without fear of retribution.

steve d.: Sounds just like any communist state I visited in the 80's and like Nazi Germany I visited in the '80s...woops, oh yea, they were defeated 61 years ago. None of those 14 points are attractive to me in the slightest and I am as anti left wing as one can be.You ever read the Communist Manifesto? If you seriously believe that free citizens who are concerned that their government is unable to protect them are fascists, then you need a good dictionary and a better shrink.

Posted by: mike s at June 5, 2006 1:01 PM

Slim:

Just skimmed through all of the non-conservative comments here. Don't see anyone crying over these terrorists. Care to point to an example or do you come round here just to vent anger and hatred?

Ted
Cerberus

Posted by: Ted at June 5, 2006 1:05 PM

Dawg:

Your conception of due process suggests it was derived more AMERICAN (ooooooh, scary) TV shows, than from actual study or first-hand knowledge. Due process does not always involve a "day in court", just as it does not always require a 'jury of one's peers'.

Educate yourself, sir.

Posted by: SonsofMonkeysandSwine at June 5, 2006 1:05 PM

SOrry, I meant "...derived more FROM American TV shows..."

Posted by: SonsofMonkeysandSwine at June 5, 2006 1:08 PM

Do the same, SwineMonkey. Our notion of "due process" is derived from English jurisprudence. I'd start with Coke and Blackstone, if I were you, and follow the leads.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 1:10 PM

Ted, re. your 10:12 posting I agree. My 9:17 and 9:19 posting are to get people thinking and hopefully pulling together to see Canada as a country that stands for truth and justice which in turn means appropriate enforcement of our laws and taking an active stand against acts of terror regardless of who they come from.

Posted by: Anne Marsden at June 5, 2006 1:10 PM

Dr. Dawg: Whatever George W. Bush has done, you are intellectually corrupt to compare him to Mao or Che.If you really believe that then I'd suggest reading a few history books. And if this bites, good. Perhaps you should descend...from your lofty perch with its rarified atmosphere.

Posted by: mike s at June 5, 2006 1:10 PM

Whats the cause?

New Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said last week he was losing patience with reports of U.S. killings of Iraqi civilians.

These dead see no justice.

What did that 18 month old, or the thousands of others, do to deserve a bullet in the head?

Posted by: neutralsam at June 5, 2006 1:11 PM

Ted, re. your 10:12 posting I agree. My 9:17 and 9:19 posting are to get people thinking and hopefully pulling together to see Canada as a country that stands for truth and justice which in turn means appropriate enforcement of our laws and taking an active stand against acts of terror regardless of who they come from.

Posted by: Anne Marsden at June 5, 2006 1:11 PM

Well, Mike, what they all do have in common is that they aren't Canadian. Do even the obvious points escape you?

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 1:12 PM

Steve D.:

"Ever wonder why neo-Nazi's and white supremacists don't scare you as much as Islamic-arabs?"

No Steve, I don't wonder. I don't need to wonder. The reason is clear. There are a very small handful of neo-Nazis who are so small, so irrelevant, so discredited as to be useless. I no more worry about an attack from neo-Nazis than the people in Italy worry about the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths.

Neo-Nazis are so yesterday. Islamofascists are yesterday, today and tomorrow. Too bad you don't see the difference. The fight against European fascism has been won (or didn't you get the memo?)

The fight against global islamofascism is now.

Posted by: Warwick at June 5, 2006 1:12 PM

"And before anyone starts blaming multiculturalism, that too would be a dangerous mistake."....then,...."I'm not taking any position on immigration or multiculturalism here"

Nice backtracking, Ted.

Posted by: penny at June 5, 2006 1:13 PM

To go with this post's "Timing is Everything" spirit, I was listening to CBC on the drive home Friday when they were broadcasting a piece about the zealous prosecution by Americans of unfortunate young muslim men connected to the "Virginia Jihad Network".

I wonder if the CBC will be equally "zealous" in running stories defending the terror suspects arrested in Toronto on the same day of "Virginia Jihad" story broadcast...

Posted by: Martin B. at June 5, 2006 1:14 PM

If jack off says these things to buy some votes then he is an a-hole. But if he truely belives what he is saying, then he is an a-hole!

Posted by: Robert at June 5, 2006 1:14 PM

The same people that say we can't blame all muslims for terrorists, blame all rightwingers when a few people do something stupid, why is that?

Posted by: kevin at June 5, 2006 1:14 PM

"The fight against European fascism has been won (or didn't you get the memo?)"

LMAO! That's good Warwick.

Posted by: Surecure at June 5, 2006 1:16 PM

Dawg: No, but your reason for even introducing it is not. And I sincerely believe you already have a marvelous grasp of the obvious, so I can't see the point of countering the issue that totalitarianism is NOT part of the Canadian culture with that brilliant observation of the birthplaces of world leaders. Bravo. Why didn't you mention that Chavez, Arafat, Stalin, Trotsky, Lenin, Castro, the Beatles, Mickey Mouse all were not Canadian?

Posted by: mike s at June 5, 2006 1:20 PM

Yes, but refute my points, Dawggy-style!

Don't evade them by making some psuedo-intellectual point which I'm sure you learned in Marxian Analysis of the Law 101 (hope you you finished your degree, BTW).

Am I wrong?


SOM(E)AS(S)

Posted by: SonsofMonkeysandSwine at June 5, 2006 1:20 PM

The same people that say we can't blame all muslims for terrorists, blame all rightwingers when a few people do something stupid, why is that?

Huh? When the whackos who set off the bomb in Oklahoma were caught, I for one didn't think this reflected badly on white people or conservatives.

In any case, it's certainly not my fault if the screamers here want to typecast themselves.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 1:21 PM

Dont be so hard on Jack, he does give you a hand when crossing a sreet. He looks both ways before he proceeds. He always carries a copy of the rules regarding steet crossing in his hip pocked.

you are save with Jack!

Posted by: tulip at June 5, 2006 1:22 PM

Why didn't you mention that Chavez, Arafat, Stalin, Trotsky, Lenin, Castro, the Beatles, Mickey Mouse all were not Canadian?

Why not address your question to the Dummkopf who introduced this red herring?

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 1:26 PM

Reading the postings here I KNOW many would feel very comfortable with many of those 14 items. I read people rail on them every day. Look in the mirror.
We do soo LOVE all things military
We would really LOVE to control media. You guys go on about it all the time. Its not RIGHT enough drag it RIGHT, when its REALLY RIGHT we will say how fair and balanced it is
Tell me Harper isn't trying to manipulate the media!

We have our scapegoats
Lets all keep waving our patriotism around
Those damned unions--down with them
Corporations can't be given enough tax breaks to suit me.

Look in the mirror. You are marching the jack-boot road.

Posted by: steve d. at June 5, 2006 1:27 PM

neutral sam asks: "Whats the cause?"


Here it is from the left liberal moonbats at the "Democratic Underground".

Out the homos... next step? Sew pink stars on their coats. Next step? You know....., Himmler.

Hate Groups. A near monopoly of the Left?

Posted on 06/05/2006 10:02:16 AM PDT by rface

Hateful liberals are filling the Democrat Party and have motivated most of the left wing activists.

Their hatred of those that dare to think differently and their hatred of those who chose to live differently is approaching a dangerous threshold:


Democratic Underground: The Moonbats.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1355435

Philosoraptor Donating Member (642 posts) Mon Jun-05-06 12:35 PM
Original message
I demand that we Expose & Remove All the Homosexuals from our government.

Starting immediately by identifying all those who are, or might be homosexuals, or the parents or relatives of homosexuals, currently infesting our moral and Godly government.

I can think of several names right off the top of my head whom I strongly suggest are homosexuals, many of whom are in the republican party in VERY prominent positions.

If we are going to single out and banish certain undesirable elements of society, we must cleanse our own government first. ... more
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1643717/posts

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 1:28 PM

steve d; here is my disdain for your distain:( Free is right, many of those do sound remarkably Liberalesque.

Posted by: Cheri at June 5, 2006 1:29 PM

kevin,you see,their whole purpose for being here is to attack the right.That's why they appear to support the terrorists,they waste so much time provoking conservatives that there is none left to say if they actually support the terrorists or not.
We arguably JUST narrowly avoided the deaths of thousands of innocent Canadian men,women and children and they hang out here SOLELY to take potshots at conservatives.Tells you a lot about their character and misguided priotities.

Posted by: Canadian Observer at June 5, 2006 1:34 PM

People, cut down on the insults and stay on topic.

Posted by: Kate at June 5, 2006 1:38 PM

Steve D.

You really need help. You're raving like a lunatic.

First and foremost, half of your points are not fascist. Conservative does not equal fascist.

Most of the points that are even remotely connected to fascism can also be connected to communism and others.

Really. Aside from some unfortunate rhetorical excess, there are no fascists on this site. I disagree with at least 1/3 of what I read here (if not more) but there are no Nazis here.

Frankly, the clear violation of Goodwin's law alone should clue you in to your idiocy.

None of your posts make any substantial point but rave about fascists. If you have nothing useful to say, spare us your delusional rantings.

At least lefties like Ted have something useful to say. I disagree with him often (if not always) but he isn't an idiot. Steve, you have nothing of value to add.

Posted by: Warwick at June 5, 2006 1:40 PM

Dawg:Because you, and not dumbkopf, replied. How's that for obvious? 'Nuff said.

steve d: calm down. This isn't first year political science. No one is trying to crush your precious unions. We all do beleive that one day you and yours will bring us into Utopia. And BTW, you seem to be obsessed with those "14 Points". Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Posted by: mike s at June 5, 2006 1:42 PM

Er, sorry Kate.

Posted by: Warwick at June 5, 2006 1:43 PM

You know looking at that picture, I wonder if Jack was describing how he likes to get into a burka once in awhile so he knows what it's like to be a real muslim woman. He sure seems to be willing to bend over.

Posted by: Cheri at June 5, 2006 1:45 PM

steve d - where did you come up with your '14 points of definition of fascism'? It's invalid. I suggest you do a bit of reading on fascism.

1. 'nationalism' is a characteristic of ALL states. It has to be; our rule of law is, by international statute, defined within national boundaries. This includes economic treaties etc.

Fascist nationalism is 'ethnic' based, it is an a priori rather than civic mode. Fascism puts this 'essentialist nation' as pure, as a priori, as above the individual who is denigrated to a member of the group.
This is certainly a characteristic of islamofascism, which substitutes the religion for the 'nation'.

2.'disdain for human rights' isn't a characteristic of any state. It's a symptom of a breakdown in the rule of law - and is symptomatic of, for instance, Iran and Hussein's Iraq, etc.

3. 'definition of others as enemies' is a typical nationalist agenda, and found in all nations that feel fragile. Canada defines itself, always, by being 'not-American' and 'anti-American'. I don't think you would call Canada fascist? Or would you?

The fascist definition refers to others who are not 'volk'. Look it up.

4. Focus on a military. Every state that feels threatened, has a strong military, including the USA, Soviet Union, France, Australia, UK, China, India, etc. Are they all fascist states?

The fascist is not so much a focus on the military but on the male as 'hero'; very Aegean. Check out the Iliad. The male is seen as a conquerering agent, who must always be engaged in war. Quite medieval.

5. Rampant sexism? What's that got to do with fascism?

6. Disdain for the arts? Nothing to do with fascism. Plato's Republic was strongly against the intellectual literature and the arts. Was it fascist? Or simply totalitarian?

I don't think that the above is a definition for fascism. At the moment, Islam is against the arts, but that's not a symptom of its fascism.

7. Religion and gov't entwined? That's Islamism.
Fascism isn't necessarily religious; the source of truth is the nation, in its 'pure essence'. Not religion. So - invalid as a definition of fascism.

8. Gov't controlled media? Do you mean the CBC?
Propaganda is a major force of control in both communist and fascist states. No free press. Islamism rejects freedom of the press.

9. Corporate power? What's that got to do with fascism? Do you mean gov't corporations such as are found in Canada (the CBC, the airlines, etc)

10. Disdain for labour? Sorry- I don't recognize this in any country. Well, maybe France.

11. 12. Cronyism, fraudulent elections - hmm, well, that's in Africa, that's for sure. It's in the ME, where elections are rigged. Hey, in Canada too - what do you think the sponsorship money laundering was all about?

12. National security? Boy, what country isn't concerned with that now?

So, steve d. I'm afraid your 14 points are a load of dishwater. Try reading some books on fascism rather than spouting off nonsense.

Posted by: ET at June 5, 2006 1:46 PM

Ted, not letting little girls wear headscarves or crosses is fascist. Assimilation isn't about what you wear; it’s about how you think. Jack Layton does not understand how the Clarity Act impacts on separatism and IMHO Liberals don’t understand on how multi-culti relativism weakens our ability to deal with Islamofascism – so I think I’m on topic.

Ted you’ve confused me; are you for multi-culti or against it?
Agreed Islamofascism is a global movement and those with or without multiculturalism will suffer from the radical Jihadist onslaught.

I maintain there is a better strategy than having a Ministry of Multiculturalism that panders to those who believe in cultural relativism, which I presume you do. That has been a big mistake in Canada and even worse in Europe because it de facto says it is OK if cultures don’t assimilate.

Canada would be much better off to have a Ministry of Assimilation. Let’s not ban what people wear. Instead let’s ban intolerance, which is what the radial Islamofascists represent. Also, instead of saying all cultures are equal under multiculturalism let’s just accept that they are different. We will tolerate your culture as long you pledge allegiance to intolerance as I suggested above. We as Canadians have to define what we are and that is something beyond simply not being Americans. Who are we and what do we stand for?
Multi-culti is a recipe for disaster because it stands for nothing.

As Cheri says above, Moderates need our help because they are scared of the radicals. Let’s arm the Moderates with some rules about intolerance and let them tell their Muslim radicals that Canadians think un-reformed Islam is unacceptable in this country. It is a socio-political philosophy that doesn’t even recognize the equality of men and women. Let’s help Moderates insist on change within Islam itself so that they can assimilate with us.

Posted by: nomdenet at June 5, 2006 1:48 PM

It's a good thing people like Jack Layton and organizations like CUPE don't have any influence on public policy.

If the muslim terrorists are convicted I say we reintroduce the death penalty so we can execute those mother fuckers.

As long as we keep acting like a bunch of pussies in North America the islamofascists will keep coming over here to attack us because they know we have no backbone.


It's a wonderful thing these terrorist thugs were caught. Kudos to our great men and women and law enforcement. Unfortunately I doubt we'll see them do any serious time, probably a Liberal trademarked slap on the wrist and an NDP trademarked hug and apology for hurting their feelings.

Posted by: NICK at June 5, 2006 1:50 PM

Still no response from the Snoop Dawg, I see!

Quelle surprise!

Posted by: SonsofMonkeysandSwine at June 5, 2006 1:55 PM

Massive immigration of Muslims from parts of the world where Liberal democracy is not a value is dangerous; period. Ask yourself, have European Muslims (40 million strong) generally embraced Liberal Democracy, or have they concentrated in enclaves where extremism is common and growing. Where are their alleginces? And, how effective, anywhere in the world, have "peaceful" Muslims been in eliminating and combating extremism? Then ask, what is the record of Muslim states worldwide?

If you have one shred of geopolitical, religious, and historic knowledge, you'll be genuinely concerned and may even feel trepidation.

If you are like Dawg, you will completely ignore the "facts" and instead dig up dead horses, irrelevant or insignificant parallel situations, and more often than not, change the topic. That is how Socialist Utopians like Dawg survive and make sense of the utter failure of their dogma to make sense of what is happening in the world today.

Posted by: Debris Trail at June 5, 2006 1:56 PM

To Dr Dawg & the other appeasers, Dare i say it. To those who's hope is the destruction of this Nation. Treasonable individuals panting for Islamic radicals to control us all. Out of there own fears or because they support these killers.

There fear & cowardice is unquestionably the motive behind there desperation.As the very people they attempt to make martyers ofFor converts it those 72 virgins & a way to bring glory to there names by killing innocents. Plot our destruction. Destroy any semblance of personel liberty.

These folks are usually the ones you see at work, ratting on fellow employee's while doing no work themselves. These folks figure if they defend ther hero's of destruction they will be spared.Perhaps rewarded as good Dhimmi. Nope you will be the first killed.

Simon Weisenthal was "liberated" 7 times. As he stated in one of his books. "The only differnece between the Facists & Communists was: The communists killed the buisness men first than the intelligensia. The facists did it in reverse".

This editorial speaks to the many issues brought up by the lapdogs of fear.The potentates of derison. The grandees of liberal insanity.Wake up bozo's . These are not nice people. There terrorosts wioth you & your family's in there sights.

As for Muslims here, they should get a fair hearing like anyone else. No better . No worse. It should be an individual case by case appraoch. That there is not only homegrow jihadists, but the Iman & Mosques are there ideological breeding grounds. This is irrefutable. Exported by our good buddies the House of Saud.

We are actually paying for oil, that they use to try to ikill us with. The West has gone insane.

Time to face facts
Calgary Sun June 5, 2006

So, the soothing illusion our country is safe from extremist Islamic terrorism has finally been shattered.

Even the most naive of among us — and some of those include politicians and government bureaucrats — must now know we can no longer pretend we can live in a comfortable cocoon where assaults and mass killings, such as those in New York City, Madrid, London and Bali, can’t happen here.

They can.

Indeed, they almost did.

We’re fortunate the RCMP, the Canadian Secret Intelligence Service (CSIS) and other police and security agencies were alert to the threat to our nation and nabbed some 17 suspects this past weekend across southern Ontario before missions could be carried out that would have spurred destruction and death among us.

Who can fail to be alarmed when RCMP Assistant Commissioner Michael McDonell and other officials revealed in their haul of terrorist apparatus were some three tonnes of ammonium nitrate.

That was three times the amount of this explosive radical Timothy McVeigh and his ilk used to destroy a federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995 that killed almost 170 men and women.

The attacks that our police and security officials believe the suspects planned is almost unimaginable.

And let’s not delude ourselves and fall for the line of Lib-Left critics who contend we have opened ourselves to terrorism only because our soldiers are in Afghanistan or our country is allied with U.S. President George W. Bush and Washington.

Soon after 9/11, Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaida organization put Canada on its list of targets.

Just last week, top CSIS official Jack Hooper warned members of the Senate committee on national security and defence of a looming terrorist threat to our country from both new immigrants and ‘home grown’ second- and third- generation Islamic radicals.

If Hooper’s testimony before that committee wasn’t sufficient a wake-up call to us, then this past weekend’s arrests and haul of sabotage paraphernalia should be.

We are now at war.

It is a war we must win.

Posted by: Revanat Dream at June 5, 2006 2:01 PM

Perhaps this is a war that we are already on the road to losing. This 'terror' didn't start in Canada with the arrests this weekend, it didn't start with the Marc Lepine (Gamil Gharbi) massacre, it didn't start with the Air India bombing, just perhaps it started with the FLQ back in the Sixties. That was the first incidence in Canada of the majority caving into the minority. It spawned the Bilingual Act, the first step on the road to Multiculturalism. This was where the present day 'terrorists' learned that there are enough appeasers in Canada who are willing to surrender their rights to anyone who is willing to commit mayhem, extortion, violence, murder to further their ends. The last fifty or so years of Liberal/NDP appeasement has ensured that we can no longer go back to the Canada that once was. With all their appeasement, liberalism, political correctness,and 'soft comfy fur' we have squandered our childrens future. We are less safe today in our own society than we were fifty years ago. The social engineering has now cost us our future. The weekends arrests may have curtailed an attack somewhere in Canada but as tomorrow approaches I fear that these Islamic radicals will launch an attack somewhere in the Western world to counter the day that we all celebrate, June 6, 1944, the day that democracy rescued Europe. Tomorrow will be written 06-06-06. To these radicals it is an opportune time to 'release the beast'. Comments.

Posted by: Antenor at June 5, 2006 2:25 PM

Still no response from the Snoop Dawg, I see!

Au contraire, SwineMonkey, I pointed to a couple of good starting-points for your research into due process. Your subsequent post, frankly, was gobbledegook. I dodn't see a question in it.

If you are like Dawg, you will completely ignore the "facts" and instead dig up dead horses, irrelevant or insignificant parallel situations, and more often than not, change the topic. That is how Socialist Utopians like Dawg survive and make sense of the utter failure of their dogma to make sense of what is happening in the world today.

I looked in vain for the slightest concrete example from DT to back up this windy series of charges. I feel as though I'm being asked to defend myself against the issuance of a security certificate.

Most of the 17 alleged terrorists are Canadian-born, which leaves the immigration issue a few steps behind. In any case it's funny to read DT's attacks on immigration from non-democratic states--that's pretty rich, coming from a former Czech. :)

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 2:25 PM

Still no response from the Snoop Dawg, I see!

Au contraire, SwineMonkey, I pointed to a couple of good starting-points for your research into due process. Your subsequent post, frankly, was gobbledegook. I didn't see a question in it.

If you are like Dawg, you will completely ignore the "facts" and instead dig up dead horses, irrelevant or insignificant parallel situations, and more often than not, change the topic. That is how Socialist Utopians like Dawg survive and make sense of the utter failure of their dogma to make sense of what is happening in the world today.

I looked in vain for the slightest concrete example from DT to back up this windy series of charges. I feel as though I'm being asked to defend myself against the issuance of a security certificate.

Most of the 17 alleged terrorists are Canadian-born, which leaves the immigration issue a few steps behind. In any case it's funny to read DT's attacks on immigration from non-democratic states--that's pretty rich, coming from a former Czech. :)

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 2:25 PM

Revnant Dream, you obviously are the man to answer a factual question. You say that "Soon after 9/11, Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaida organization put Canada on its list of targets."

When, just how soon after 9/11, was that?


Posted by: agitfact at June 5, 2006 2:26 PM

"As for Muslims here, they should get a fair hearing like anyone else. No better . No worse."

Rev; I usually agree with you but when I look at the farce of a trial for Zaccarias Moussawi and the parting words from him, the hold-out juror and even Bin Laden, I have my reservations. We will see how this current well-laid case is presented, tried and convicted, in Canada, under the Conservatives, with Liberal appointed judges. I wait, the world waits, watches.

Posted by: Cheri at June 5, 2006 2:28 PM

Rebuild failed: Renaming tempfile '/home/kate/public_html/archives/cat_insufferable_twits.html.new' failed: Renaming '/home/kate/public_html/archives/cat_insufferable_twits.html.new' to '/home/kate/public_html/archives/cat_insufferable_twits.html' failed: No such file or directory

Just be patient, SwineMonkey. The above is what I get when I try to post a reply. Thanks a bunch, Kate, by the way--I love the name of your temp file. :)

Still no response from the Snoop Dawg, I see!

Au contraire, SwineMonkey, I pointed to a couple of good starting-points for your research into due process. Your subsequent post, frankly, was gobbledegook. I didn't see a question in it.

If you are like Dawg, you will completely ignore the "facts" and instead dig up dead horses, irrelevant or insignificant parallel situations, and more often than not, change the topic. That is how Socialist Utopians like Dawg survive and make sense of the utter failure of their dogma to make sense of what is happening in the world today.

I looked in vain for the slightest concrete example from DT to back up this windy series of charges. I feel as though I'm being asked to defend myself against the issuance of a security certificate.

Most of the 17 alleged terrorists are Canadian-born, which leaves the immigration issue a few steps behind. In any case it's funny to read DT's attacks on immigration from non-democratic states--that's pretty rich, coming from a former Czech. :)

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 2:28 PM

Sorry about the duplicate posts, incidentally.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 2:31 PM

If you want to learn about the 14 points of Fascism just google "fascism 14" and then you can choose. That way you can't just dismiss the one site you would have to dismiss them all.

ET--you read up about fascism and then tell me you can't find at lot of elements of fascism, especially south of the border,but growing here! Its bad enough its growning but for so few to see and understand it is a little spooky!

Posted by: steve d. at June 5, 2006 2:40 PM

Dr. Dawg: My great grandfather and grandfather left Czechoslovakia in 1935, when it was the most liberal of the democracies in Europe. The Czech state became the model that most Euro free states were later based on. Soon after 1935 the Nazis invaded, then after the war a puppet Soviet government was installed. Today, the Czech republic is truly democratic once again, and the majority of its people are very pro-American, incredibly pro-Bush, and dedicated liberal democrats. So, coming from me, my stance makes perfect sense.

As far as my charge against you, it is based on many thousands of words of debate on blogs including my own. For example, taking snippits from historic dynosaurs, like White Supremicism, and drawing parallels to conservative views on Muslim chauvanism, is a dodge... the two are completely unrelated and the one irrelevant in today's context.

But, you are most definately one of the most respectful and difficult Socialists to debate. You've had me down for a three count many times leaving me to lick my wounds and return to fight another day. If there were more like you, you'd see much less echo chamber on the blogs. So, please accept my appreciation as much as my critism and I hope that others see it that way as well. Echo chambers just make us all more extreme.

Posted by: Debris Trail at June 5, 2006 2:40 PM

Why should any country destroy it's security and harmony by seeking immigrants that have at core an incompatible worldview, whose religion is intolerant and insists on non-assimilation, that denigrates females and has jihad as a principle?

Well said Penny:

I wonder what Dr Dawg & his dispiples think of female circumsision? Sewing Womens genitals up like a bad cut?

How about driving, going out without a male relative? Honor killings even if the Lady was raped?

The Arab saying "a mans honor is found between his womens legs" is a common quote.

How does Dr Dawg feel about female education, as jihadist Muslims keep insisting, Women should not even learn to read.

Does dr Dawg not see the Islamofacists intimidate Muslims hear, as did the German Bund. Germans before ww2?

What about medicine being denied Women Dr in Muslim rqadical communities?

All this was made possibe in Canada, & Almost sharia law because the LIb-Left is in the hof madness , condradictory in the absolute.

Lets go too these crazy individuals end of logic. Multiculturalism is designed primarly to create a caste system. With benifits Or none depending on race, gender, religion or ethicity. All have different set of rules.

This is not a Democracy. Its a Tribalized Nation with no law that is equal. It is a profoundly anti- Democratic vison. Its shows exactly what the NDP plus liberal dupes would chain us too, eventualy leeding to real slavery.

Its entrenched bigotry. Why are sikh kids allowed knives in school but no one else. This is law applied equaly? Its NOT a requirment of there religion. Read up on it yourself if you think I am lying. But this is only one example of many injustices being pimped off as tolerance.

In reality except for markings it stops any form of real intergration.

Just my opinion.

Posted by: Revnant Dream at June 5, 2006 2:41 PM

This is an unscientific poll in today’s Globe. It would appear Jack’s followers are not with him on cultural relativism. It will be interesting to see what the next set of professional polls show.

Is moderate Canadian Muslim leaders doing enough to combat radicalism?

Yes (11%) 1101 votes
No (89%) 9047 votes

Total votes: 10148

Seldom do we see a Globe poll this skewed. Maybe Canadians are waking up?

My guess is that Ignatieff has now clenched the Liberal leadership; no one else in the leadership race can be trusted on this National Security file.

Let’s hope that Canadians have had enough of being fooled by their political elitist appeasers and will now buttress our fragile democracy with their historical backbone that made this country great.

Posted by: nomdenet at June 5, 2006 2:41 PM

Nomdenet:

I'm not taking any position on multiculturalism here (although I would note that the multiculturalism of today was criticized by it's maker, Trudeau). My point is that multiculturalism not really relevant to the issue of these 17 terrorists. If it was, you would see something very different in the reaction of radical fundamentalist Muslims in other countries since none of them have a multicultural policy.

Most countries deal with Muslims and other immigrants in their own fashion and the results however are surprisingly similar. So in the UK, where you've had a strong isolationist approach ('come work for us, but don't expect us to allow you to integrate into society'), you have the children of immigrants blowing up trains and buses. Many in the UK are now saying we need a multicultural policy in order to integrate immigrants better.

So what I'm saying is that if we want to debate our policies on multiculturalism, that's fine. Go ahead. Probably a healthy thing in some senses because it hasn't been done in a while. But don't start thinking that tinkering with, cancelling or reformulating our multiculturalism policies is going to stop the next batch of terrorists.

By the same token, we can decide not to invite or allow any more immigrants from any country to enter Canada if we want to. In my view, that too won't stop the next batch of terrorists. Why? Because they are already here and they were born here to immigrants who came decades ago. Could changing our immigration policies stop more terrorism decades from now? Who knows but don't start thinking that tinkering with, cancelling or reformulating our immigration policies is going to stop the next batch of terrorists.

Ted
Cerberus

Posted by: Ted at June 5, 2006 2:42 PM

Isn't life/death in Canada awful, degrading, for the "falsely accused" Islamist terrorists?

Go back to your homelands. You have done too much damage, along with your dhimmis, to Canada already. The MSM will not protect you there. You shall be safe in your homelands.

Notice the fashion note: "navy blue hijab". Down with the MSM. MSM have red-blood on their hands.

...


OTTAWA -- The path to this past weekend's stunning arrests of 17 people in connection to an alleged terrorist plot is littered with the broken lives of the falsely accused

.....
Asha Muhyadin wiped her tears from her eyes with her navy blue hijab and wondered how she will face her neighbours now that her eldest son is an accused terrorist.

"'I'm no terrorist, mom,' he says too me. Help me. How can I help him? We're finished, finished, finished," Muhyadin said yesterday.

...

Despite the show of support for police, cracks in the community's trust in government and media coverage was obvious.

"We are double victimized," one man said. "We are the ones who suffer the vandalism and are verbally and physically abused."

Others said they were worried the accused have already been convicted in the public's mind.

There are lingering grudges too against CSIS, particularly over the fallout from Project Thread, once billed as a major terror bust that ultimately dissolved into minor immigration charges against 19 men.

Many resent the security service's tactics and techniques in that and other investigations, and CSIS headquarters in Toronto was a target of the bomb plot. ...
cnews

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 2:55 PM

Actually, Ted, multiculturalism IS isolationist. It locks immigrants into sociocultural groups, it defines the group behaviour as a direct continuity from their behaviour in 'the old country' and inhibits and discourages adaptive changes to the new country and new population.

That's the problem with multiculturalism. First, it defines individuals, not as Canadians but as members of an immigrant group - which can be 2nd and 3rd generation. It locates the source of their identity, not within an adaptation to Canada and all its population, but within a focus on the continuity of the 'old culture'.

Then, it refuses to evaluate these 'group cultures' as to whether they function in a robust mannter, within a modern industrial economy and democracy. Islamism is a tribal, agricultural ideology; it doesn't function well within a modern industrial democracy.

So, this enforced isolation of multiculturalism flings the youth of that group, back into the group. The old ideology does nothing for them, and they are readily open to extremism, with its, yes, romanticism, utopianism, passion. All of these emotions are lacking in the 'old culture' which is frozen in time; they are not available in the Canadian culture which is non-existent.

Along with the sterility and isolationism of multiculturalism, we also have bilingualism, which sets up a closed elite within the government and senior positions of authority.

AND, finally but not last - is Islamism itself. A religious, sociopolitical ideology that is frozen in the 10th century, tribal and medieval, refusing to modernize.

Put at least two of these together (eg multiculturalism and Islamism) and you've got your very own ammonium nitrate.

Posted by: ET at June 5, 2006 2:56 PM

Antenor; I was wondering about that date too, and whether or not it had anything to do with the timing of the arrests. The RCMP are pretty tight-lipped on what or when because they don't want to tip anyone off. I won't be losing any sleep however; I've come to realize that these freaks are incapable of reason, and the name of the game is un-certainty and fear.

I am greatly re-assured by the efforts of our new government and our security agencies. This is proof they are on the job and not fooled. No longer can terrorists use the na·ive·té of some (too many) against the citizenry of this country or any other. The time for dithering is over.


Posted by: Cheri at June 5, 2006 2:59 PM

agitfact :
First it was the editorialist that said it.

Though even a fool knows when theose pronounments where made by him.

CTV.Al Qaeda attack on Canada 'probable': CSIS
Updated Wed. May. 10 2006 11:27 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Al Qaeda included Canada on a list of target countries in both November 2002 and March 2004.

Meanwhile, Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan are coming under repeated attack from al Qaeda and Taliban elements opposed to the new western-supported government in Kabul.

Hope your satisfied. Being its CTV, no conservative bais need apply.

Posted by: Revnant Dream at June 5, 2006 3:02 PM

Cheri said: "The time for dithering is over."

Right: Shoot first, ask questions later.

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. Barry Goldwater


...

CKNW NEWS

Suspected terrorists removed from inbound Air Canada flight

Jun, 04 2006 - 10:40 PM

RICHMOND/CKNW(AM980) - Air Canada says it may have been young people acting up on a flight from London, England to Vancouver, but passengers onboard the flight say otherwise.

There were some tense moments as the Air Canada plane sat on the tarmac of London's Heathrow Airport.

Vancouver passenger, Ivan Bulic says British police boarded the plane and told them to stay in their seats, while five males were dragged off the plane, "When police came onboard, heavily-armed police with bullet-proof vests and dogs, and two busloads of police surrounded the aircraft, people were obvioulsy wondering what was going on."

The flight touched down safely in Vancouver Sunday afternoon.

Another passenger confirms the suspects were all adult males and remained quiet as they were being removed from the flight.
http://www.voy.com/178771/1730.html

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 3:07 PM

No, steve d. YOU have to do some reading on fascism. I assure you, I have already done a great deal. That's my point; your 14 points, wherever they come from, are totally invalid descriptions of fascism.

No, the USA is not a fascist state. Because you and others set up a fallacious description of fascism, and then, try to lock the US into that description, is nonsense. Furthermore, your 14 points don't describe the USA.

Posted by: ET at June 5, 2006 3:07 PM

Didn't Ms. Kadar leave canada with her sons because she was afraid they would grow up gay, and preferred them to be suicide bombers. Does the ssm crowd still support these terrorists as misunderstood youth. When did canadian troops invade canada. Was that an invasion when they went to shovel snow in TO. This is hurricane season in the USA, and we cdns should be really concerned about the plot being hatched in the US to annilate (sp) our Oilers. Now that is a plot worth stopping. Wonder if Scott B supports Islam, and sides with the plotters. The leftists support those that are against everything they stand for and can't get that thru their heads. And, muslims have been fighting our values for 2000 yrs, before any US or Cdn troops existed. I have always said that western troops should be dressed in pigskin uniforms, spray all vehicles with pigfat, and dip all bullets etc in pigfat, to keep these idiots out of paradise and those poor virgins alone. What happens to these women once they are no longer virgins. Don't you feel sorry for all those disappointed martyrs who are burning in hell, and not in paradise.

Posted by: maryT at June 5, 2006 3:10 PM

Most of the 17 alleged terrorists are Canadian-born, which leaves the immigration issue a few steps behind.

How so? Their parents are immigrants which still leaves the question of quantity and quality of immigration wide open.

These would-be jihadis didn't exist in a vacuum. They have parents. Immigrant parents, who obviously did a real poor job assimilating them and, who really knows, are possible sympathizers. Or, just as alarming, were neutral vessels. It's very unlikely that in the family, among friends, and at the neighborhood mosque everyone was clueless as to what they were doing.

And, Dawg, one Oklahoma City bombing by a deranged white guy has no symmetry to the 30 years and rising global body count of unrelenting Islamic terrorist attacks. Minimize all you want to advance your agenda, but the facts and history have crushed your point.

All Muslims aren't terrorists, but in the last 30 years - removing the IRA and Basques with their specific targets - very few terrorists aren't Muslims.

Posted by: penny at June 5, 2006 3:10 PM

Cheri:


"I am greatly re-assured by the efforts of our new government and our security agencies."

Please. The investigations have been ongoing for over a year. The specific sting operation itself pre-dates the election. As Kate's post itself says right up there at the top: ""This is the largest counter-terrorism operation and arrests in Canada since the creation of the Anti-Terrorism Act [C-36] and the amendment of the Criminal Code to better define terrorism." That would be the Anti-Terrorism Act and CC amendments brought in by the Liberals.

This is no victory for the Liberals or the Conservatives, but for all of us. Our security and police forces have done their jobs, brilliantly, to protect us.

Most who want to boast are satisfied with left-right partisanship and leaving the political parties out of it which is only slightly better. We have enough partisanship on the stuff that matters a bit. We don't need more partisanship on stuff that matters a lot.

Ted
Cerberus

Posted by: Ted at June 5, 2006 3:13 PM

steve d . . . . . what does your own bathwater taste like ?


Posted by: Fred at June 5, 2006 3:15 PM

DT:

Thanks for that. My guess at your background was obviously way off the mark. I apologize.

I raised Oklahoma only because people's reaction to it was so different (once they had realized, of course, that Muslims were not to blame). No one put them in a "white" box, or an "ultra-conservative" box. No one used braod categories. They were murderous neo-Nazi thugs. Period.

Consider the difference with these (alleged) thugs in Toronto. Their entire community is getting the blame. Their leaders aren't doing enough. Anyone from the community could be a terrorist. All of them, according to one extremist on this very thread, should be hanged. Note the broadness of the categories. Note the homogeneity that we impose on "the Muslim community."

In any case, I do appreciate our exchanges. Now let me get back to digging up that horse. :)

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 3:17 PM

Ted,

You are correct. Our collective security is not supposed to be a partisan issue. We all win when we don't get murdered by islamofascists.

But...(the inevitable but) we need to make that clear to lucky Jack who seems not to get it. He was the one who was making politics out of our security arrangement as illustrated in the original story of this post. He was doing what the US Democrats are doing in the US. That is: He's selling out security interests to drive his agenda and place a wedge between the various groups in society.

Posted by: Warwick at June 5, 2006 3:17 PM

Cheri:
Valid point. I try to be optimistic with our justice system (or lack of one to be precise)but as you aver. With Liberal judges & the PC mentality.

They well may end up walking & plotting for the next time.It will be intersting to see the competing interests.

Already the Muslim community thinks its all about them. What about the Canadians that would have died by these fanatics. Excuses already tumbling from appeasers. Its nausiating.

Another result of multiculturalism. All society,s are the same but Europian western ideals. They are the devils.

No matter slavery was ended, civil rights accrued, education for all. Universities. Hospitals. Now look at Muslim Nations.How many books , schools or grat Universities do they have. Gee how many books outside the Koran have even been translated?

Until Liberals & socialists realize all cultures & people are not moraly equivalent. Some are evil , some inhuman.

I use the Aztecs & Carib indians as examples. Both Canaibal cultures. Both into human sacrifie at unbelievable levals.

The carib indians do not exist anymore. They where repalced by plantation owners. The spanish annialated them. Why? Because they kept people in corrals like cattle & slaughted them for meat. Children where a special treat. Even the hardened Conquistadors where sickened.

To the biase dlegal system in this Country that loves criminals, you probably hit it on the head.

I will still hope though that sanity prevades there councils.

Posted by: Revnant Dream at June 5, 2006 3:18 PM

Good points, ET. Let me add that multi-culturalism is a nice divisive game advanced by the left to propagate victim politics. A game that Dems/Libs reap voters by playing.

Another divisive aspect to the multi-culti racket is that if all cultures are assigned equal value, then a dysfunctional culture can't be criticised or be forced to change. You get to remain protected in your dysfunction. Anyone challenging the behavior of a dysfunctional group is automatically labelled a racist.

Bill Cosby is slammed by the MSM and Dem politicos because he repeatedly asks urban blacks to clean up their act. Harsi Ali is vilified for daring to criticize the dysfunction of Islam. Whites are completely muzzled for fear of being labelled racist. And so it goes.

Posted by: penny at June 5, 2006 3:33 PM


Penny,

A racist is someone who is winning an argument against a lefty. It's used as a tool to crush dissent and keep those who disagree in fear of speaking out.

Being called a racist is like being called a pedophile or rapist. It may not be true but after being labelled, truth doesn't matter - the damage is done. It is a cheap, weaselly, low-end slur against an opponent. It's used by the despicable and dishonest.

Posted by: Warwick at June 5, 2006 3:43 PM

Dawg; Consider the difference with these (alleged) thugs in Toronto. Their entire community is getting the blame. Their leaders aren't doing enough. Anyone from the community could be a terrorist. All of them, according to one extremist on this very thread, should be hanged. Note the broadness of the categories. Note the homogeneity that we impose on "the Muslim community."

Nonsense Dawg - You are guilty of the same sin by seizing on 1 individuals irresponsible comment about hanging to tar the entire right. Fact; Muslim community leaders and the Muslim community in general have done precious little to renounce terrorism and denounce the terrorists in their midst. They are pre-occupied with an anticipated anti-muslim backlash rather than with dealing with the Islamofascists. Your remarks smack of the usual left wing need to blame western societies for all the ills of the world.

Posted by: Mikey Not Marky Mike at June 5, 2006 3:44 PM

Socialism: The Road To Hell On earth.

Socialism is allied with Islamist jihad:

Socialist jihadi Hell on earth. ...

Darfur Remembered

Patrick Porter at Oxblog finds Christopher Hitchens thinking about Darfur and Iraq.

I sometimes ask myself: if it weren’t for Iraq, could we have done more, or even something about Darfur?...Without this, we might have been able to try and arrest the genocide of our African Moslem brothers and sisters at the hands of death squads of Arab Moslems.

But, even as I say that I realise… that it was decided to play Darfur Kofi Annan’s way. This time it’ll be consultation, this time it’ll be negotiation. This time no pre-emption, this time no unilateralism. And we know that the genocidaires ran out the clock of that spare time to complete the genocide. Now there’s almost no-one left to kill.

So everyone has to face this question. And I’m sorry to say that it will not be decided by jokes about George Bush’s IQ.

Hitchens instantly realizes that from a certain point of view Iraq represents an opportunity to blame America for Darfur. But he is smarter than that. He also realizes that, come to think about it, there are a number of places throughout the world where the International Community has decided to play things the Kofi Annan way where things are not going so well. Darfur is one, but the Congo is another. And those places are in the long, slow road to hell. Not a hell from which there is some prospect of redemption; not one in which formerly destroyed marshes are returning to life; or which has revived, for good or ill its pilgrim trade; only one in which despair is given. Despair not only given, but guaranteed. By the Kofi Annan way. "So everyone has got to face this question," because the Kofi Annan way independently provides a route to damnation. Why, Hitch? It's the very question nobody ever wants to face. Which is why things are always going to be debated in terms of George Bush's IQ. belmont club

Who is Hitch? Hitch is Christopher Hitchens, former leftist. Hitch left the left.

Another who left the left here:

The Fall of My Leftist House of Mirrors
By Michael Lopez-Calderon
Calderon's Call | September 9, 2005

That crashing, piercing sound you hear is the fall of my Leftist House of Mirrors. A worldview that purported moral truths, cloaked itself in the language of arcane academia, venerated its doubtlessly dedicated, sincere intellectual stalwarts and activists – Noam Chomsky, Daniel Ellsberg, Benjamin Spock, Howard Zinn, Edward Said -- and preyed upon alienated young idealists who like me were in search of a workable Utopia, proved a chimera of monumental proportions. That my Leftist House of Mirrors produced an illusion on such a massive scale is now evidenced by the reaction of the Left’s priestly class to the horrific Islamo-Fascist act of mass murder on September 11, 2001.

The Leftist response to that wickedness bordered on the anemic at best, collaboration with evil at worst. That what’s left of the Left would hesitate in condemning this monstrous act; that it would even countenance the rubbish of “chickens coming home to roost” or as Chomsky quipped, “a nasty response to U.S. nastiness around the world,” unequivocally betrays a hatred of the United States, democracy, indeed even Western civilization, that is as equal parts lethal as it is irrational.

My Leftist House of Mirrors began to crack less than a decade ago. But first, a tour de force of the development of my political Weltanschauung. more:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19399

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 3:49 PM

Jack Layton is right. The real threat are the cowards who let alleged terrorists dictate their agenda and cannibalize the civil liberties that make this country so great in the first place.

Posted by: lolwhat at June 5, 2006 3:50 PM

The overwhelming number of commenters (and this blog's author) seem to have the combined intelligence of my cat.

The correct way to fight terrorists is to arrest, charge, and prosecute them in the traditional Canadian way, with the government proving their case. THIS is what Layton was talking about.

The un-Canadian way is to allege that someone is a real danger but not provide any evidence to justify the allegation - "Just trust us".

Well I don't. Public convictions are far more effective (and democratic, remember that?) at demonstrating strong Canadian values then security certificates, hidden behind the 'National security' curtain.

We'll see if you tough guy keyboarders can appreciate the value of 'evidence' over your largely racist, vitriolic, and zenophobic chest thumping. When you choose to leave your comfy white caves the rest of us will welcome you into civilised society.

None of you see the big picture - I believe that Jack Layton does. It's called 'Vision'. Get some.

Posted by: RealCanuck at June 5, 2006 3:50 PM

Ted, yes I too learned recently that Trudeau stated in a speech in 1995 that he’d foolishly armed the Petit Gar from Shawinigan with unsafe ammo (I’ve paraphrased). I would actually trust Trudeau with the terrorism file, not much else though.

Trudeau saw the unintended consequences of his letting multi-culti relativism dilute our culture and take us back into time.

The only way we can beat Islamofascism in the long run is to help Moderates reform their medieval socio-economic religion. Like Socialism this is a state-religion. Very dangerous. So we must show the Moderates that we stand for Canadian values not multi-culti relativism that beleives all cultures are EQUAL - how could that be? We must state clearly that we believe that we have a better way than tribal cultures. When the Moderates realize that we are serious about our own values, hopefully they will leverage our new found courage to start to reform their medieval religion.

I’m surprised that you aren’t aware of Europe’s disastrous adoption of multi-culti isolationism. Paris is literally burning. Germany let its Turkish "temporary" workers ghettoize themselves. Tony Blair tried to reform Labour, but Muslims have filled the cultural vacuum left vacant by the leftist multi-cultis in LondonStan. It’s part and parcel of their utopian socialism that all things are EQUAL.

Posted by: nomdenet at June 5, 2006 3:56 PM

Right, nomdenet. All modes of life are NOT equal. Some are functional in small villages based around no-growth populations and no-change peasant agriculture. They are disastrous in economies that require rapid innovations, mass production, surplus economies, etc.

Very nice post, Mikey NMM. The reason why the Islamic community is getting the blame, is because the ideology of islamofascism, is Islamic. It's an extreme version in part, but only in part. Read the Koran; it's very explicit that a duty of Muslims is to kill off infidels and/or insist on their subservience to Islam. Unless and until the Muslim community itself, stands up, and publicly rejects this statute of the Koran, and rejects islamofascism, then, the whole community will be blamed for this ideology.
It's up to them to reject it. Loud and clear.

Posted by: ET at June 5, 2006 4:02 PM

Revnant Dream,

I can better the reference to CTV. Look at http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=403.

We should not be surprised to surface on an al Qaeda target list in November 2002 after having been involved militarily in the "war on terror" since November 2001. The time line says "cause and effect," whether we like it or not.

Where is the evidence to the contrary?

Posted by: agitfact at June 5, 2006 4:05 PM

Jack Layton is part of the problem. His own hateful rhetoric about Americans, George Bush, Stephen Harper, etc may have contributed to these young people's ideologies. Coupled with the young people's "leaders", such their imans and their own parents. If one brings their young in an environment that keeps instilling hate towards another group (being americans, anglo canadians, etc), these young people will become brainwashed over time.

I am hoping that Jack Layton honestly examines his messaging and comes clean that he may have contributed to this mindset.

Posted by: Catherine at June 5, 2006 4:08 PM

Dr. Dawg said

"12. Rampant cronyism and corruption

13. Fraudulent elections"

Recall Volpe Youth and Adscam

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=0c1b3dca-544a-45d8-8ce3-f577f9cb43a6&k=99910


Young Trudeau: Fascist, anti-Semite, and separatist
A new book on the late prime minister's early years casts a deep shadow over Canadians' popular image of the liberal, enlightened statesman, Robert Sibley writes.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=fd9bcfa3-47ab-468e-93d1-cf839b5bf5c3&k=98392

Guns heard guns at alleged terror camp
'Kind of hard to miss'
Chris Wattie, National Post
Published: Monday, June 05, 2006

WASHAGO, Ont. -- It was the bursts of automatic gunfire that made the farmer in this tiny central Ontario tourist community think something was amiss as he fed his animals after dark.

"I feed my animals at night," the farmer said yesterday. "So I'd be outside late at night and I'd hear the gunfire from over there, automatic gunfire. I'd hear rat-a-tat-a-tat-a-tat.

"I just knew there was something wrong about them. It was obvious they were doing some kind of military training."

The sounds of war were coming from what police now describe as a terrorist training camp on an isolated property just outside Washago, about 150 kilometres north of Toronto.


Now we want to hear more apologists for acts of violence planned or otherwise?

Yep, you want to blow up the PEACE Tower!?! Yes a truly symbolic act of defiance.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.wxterror05/BNStory

Targets of the alleged plot included political and economic symbols such as the Parliament Buildings and Peace Tower in Ottawa, along with the CN Tower and Toronto Stock Exchange in Toronto.


It will be interesting to read the reports of videotape and wiretap as it is introduced into evidence for the ensuing trials and the defence for accumulating 3 metric tonnes of ammonium nitrate in an urban environment.

Wiping out the TSE, would have been a nice replay of the World Trade Center Canadian style. Yes, that would help investor confidence.

This does not sound like they had very peaceable intentions.

Hey, Guy Fawkes where have you been all these years? Oh sorry, wrong religion.


Just doing God's handiwork I suppose. A little extracurricular organic farming with fuel oil and fertilizer in my city garden plot. Totally plausible.


For an interesting review of this type of "organic farming" try this link for a visual:

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h2048.html

Interesting that authorities in the US are considering reopening this case to probe for further Al Quaeda links.

Will the real fascists please identify themselves this would save the investigators much time and trouble.


“[Dr. Dawg has] become rather like King Midas, except that everything turns not into gold, but into a circus.”
Albert Einstein paraphrased

Thus “politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.”

Hence, "He who would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
Thomas Paine

So to contradict the poster FREE up above we will neither hang Dr. Dawg nor let the accused swing before trial. BTW capital punishment is not an option in Canada; we are somewhat more humane since the advent of Guy Paul Morin and David Marshall, etc.

Posted by: Hans Rupprecht at June 5, 2006 4:17 PM

Revoke citizenship!! If a person can have their citizenship revoked because they lied on the entry form, don't you think this qualifies?

H/T to Harry for "War has been declared on us for some time now, some groups in our society will never accept this reality." When a person advocates for the destruction of Canada during a time of war, is that not treason and is it not punishible by death?

Multiculturalism encourages multiple hostile entities, rather than a Canadian unity.

Pat

Posted by: Pat at June 5, 2006 4:20 PM

RealCanuck: "tough guy keyboarders".what like you? You don't even know the life experiences of any of the posters. What makes you so brave and right? Your cat I suppose.

Since when does anyone here know the correct way to fight terrorist? Does anyone anywhere know? Of course not. That is why we have them in our midst (I'll throw in allegedly before I get flamed). But all of us should remember that 'WE" are not the state. The state doesn't care about us, other than than to pay our taxes. I resent the politicians as much as I resent any terrorist. If anyone here has ever been the target of the state, you'll quickly find out how "fair" it is. I'm putting this thought out (as a classical liberal, a term that has been bastardized beyond its true meaning)for the right-wing as well as for the left-wing. Divisive politics is the true enemy of the citizens of the West (I'm not ruling out political debate, but rather criticizing the election tactics of self-aggrandizing hacks who never work like the rest of us, and who abuse our liberties, and our political system as badly as any enemy). Any left winger here would be instantly converted by an attack by a "terrorist", and any right winger would be converted by spending all of their money to defend themselves against the arbitrariness of the state.

One more thing (sorry). I don't think that we should put all the responsibility upon the Muslim community to "police themselves". this is the same logic that had Naomi Wolfe state that "All men wear the mask of the beast" when she refers to rape of women. I hated her sexist, hateful ignorance for blaming all men for the crimes of a few, and I bet my fellow travellers on the right did as well. I will not give support to that argument by applying it to other innocents.

Posted by: mike s at June 5, 2006 4:26 PM

Pre-Mature Jack Layton how appropriate. What a dork.

Posted by: Bullwinkle at June 5, 2006 4:35 PM

The comments of Naomi Wolfe are ignorant. A man is not, by definition, a rapist.

The difference with Islamism, is that it is an ideology, not a biological individual. Is there such an ideology as 'men-ness'? No.

As an ideology, it is created by human beings. It's not a biological construct but a human construct. As such, it is held and maintained by the beliefs of its followers. Islamofascism is an extreme version of Islam, but, it is supported by Islam. Read the Koran. You'll find the extremism of violence, constant 'jihad' against non-Muslims, all there.

Therefore, I think it IS up to the Muslims to reject this perspective of violance and antipathy towards non-Muslims that is indeed part of the Koran, and the use by the extremists, of these writings in the Koran.

It is also up to non-Muslims to reject this agenda of Islam, to reject their attempts to deny equality, to deny democracy, to reject their insistence that we all adhere to or submit to their laws and their ideology.

Posted by: ET at June 5, 2006 4:35 PM

Once again Jack shows us why the NDP is where it is today.
At least it's obvious to the rest of us what party supports terrorists!

Posted by: Paul Martin at June 5, 2006 4:40 PM


Mother: Who are those guys with the chains and handcuffs? Are they all Muslims?

Yes, Virginia, they are all Muslims.


The Biggest Elephant

Here’s a no-punches-pulled commentary at the Globe and Mail by Christie Blatchford: Ignoring the biggest elephant in the room. (Hat tip: LGF readers.)

The full article is available only to registered readers, but you can read it even if you aren’t registered by using this link at Google News.

I drove back from yesterday’s news conference at the Islamic Foundation of Toronto in the northeastern part of the city, but honestly, I could have just as easily floated home in the sea of horse manure emanating from the building.

So frequent were the bald reassurances that faith and religion had nothing — nothing, you understand — to do with the alleged homegrown terrorist plot recently busted open by Canadian police and security forces, that for a few minutes afterward, I wondered if perhaps it was a vile lie of the mainstream press or a fiction of my own demented brain that the 17 accused young men are all, well, Muslims.

But no. I have checked. They are all Muslims.

Barely two days after the nighttime raids that saw 15 of the accused arrested (the remaining two, in Kingston, conveniently were already in the joint on gun charges), the great Canadian self-delusion machine was up and running at full throttle.

Why, it’s not those young men — with their three tonnes of ammonium nitrate and all the little doohickeys of the bomb-making trade — who posed the threat. No sir: They, thank you so much, are innocent until proved otherwise and probably innocent and, if convicted, it’s because of the justice system.

It’s those bastard vandals (probably crazed right-wing conservatives, or maybe the Jews) who yesterday morning broke windows at a west-end mosque who stand before us as the greatest danger to Canadian society.

As Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair, who came to the building to offer his assurances that Muslims and Muslim institutions will be protected, said at one point: “Hatred in any form and certainly in its expression in violence and damage to property will not be tolerated.”

Thank God: Windows everywhere in Canada’s largest city are safe, especially windows in mosques. The war on windows will be won, whatever the cost.

Such is the state of ignoring the biggest, fattest elephant in the room in this country that at one point Chief Blair actually bragged — this in answer to a question from the floor — “I would remind you that there was not one single reference made by law enforcement to Muslim or Muslim community” at the big post-arrest news conference on Saturday. via LGF

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 4:47 PM

"I don't think that we should put all the responsibility upon the Muslim community to "police themselves"."

I do, Mike. I also put the responsibility upon them to reform Islam as well they should. Why is the neighborhood mosque so often the central meeting place for these foiled and apprehended jihadists when their backgrounds and activities to come light? Name another religion operating at this time in history as enmeshed in terrorism?

Theodore Dalrymple gives a disturbing answer in regard to moderate Muslims:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/rev2006-06-04td.html

Sorry, but instead of whimpering about a broken window(self inflicted?, perhaps)at a mosque versus 3 tonnes of explosives for homicidal use and public backlash, which never physically happens, it is time for the alleged moderate Muslims to take it to the streets. Muslims are ultimately the only ones that can change the direction of the global jihad that has been unleashed under their names. It's time to take some responsibility.

Don't cry that you are discriminated against, suspect, and misunderstood when you've never alleviated your non-Muslim neighbor's anxiety by a large principled public denunciation of the terror you've put upon them.

Posted by: penny at June 5, 2006 4:58 PM

ET---give me your definition of Fascism because mine are all dictionary and political science based. I am dying to hear what you think a fascist is. That is if you actually know. All you have revealed so far is that you don't agree with the usual definitions.

Paul Martin

So you know what party supports terrorists do you? Well, I can tell you who creates terrorists and it isn't a party on the left. It would by the cowboy party's. Those gunslingers that settle everything with the bullets, etc. Trouble is they end up not settling anything but getting quagmired ad nauseum while terror increases. Do you suppose their strategy isn't working. Overwhelming evidence I guess isn't enough. Maybe when the insurgents are in the Green zone they will come to the obvious conclusion. It is very painful to watch how slowly they learn.

Posted by: steve d. at June 5, 2006 5:01 PM

Its all so complicated that you can read what you want into whatever is at the forfront . I try to put everything into the family structure . King and Queen ect. If you simplify the topic and look at it through the dynamics of the family structure it is easy .If we look at things from what is right and wrong , positive vrs negitive , love of a god and fear of what the neighbour might think ( a little judgment ) we would be better off. I think if every one took a look over their shoulder once in a while and swat the shit fly thats in your face we would rid our selfs of some garbage. We need to quite yappin and start scrappin. I know that if people couldnt hide behind paper ( laws) they shut up real fast.We have become nothing more than a nation full of sissies crying about ones rights . When the enemy lands on your door step dont look to this neighbour to save you .The enemy is at the gate , do Canadians care ? Nope .They think its the Americans.

Posted by: DM at June 5, 2006 5:28 PM

steve d - so, cronyism and fraudulent elections are a dictionary and political science definition of fascism? Sorry, no they aren't. Neither are any of your other 'attributes' which I've rejected above. You've culled them from one suspect source, which has no validity in either a dictionary or political science studies.

You can check out Wikipedia.

Also, check out Mussolini's and Gentile's 1932 definition of 'what is fascism'. That's a brief three page article that outlines the attributes of fascism, and guess what, none of them are found in your 'list of 14'.

Try Robert Paxton's'The Anatomy of Fascism', particularly his intro and 'creating fascist movements'. He has a list (p. 41) that's pretty clear. Nothing comparable to your 14.

Roger Eatwell's 'Fascism: A History' . The intro and also the last chapter are clarifying.

Popper's outline, in his "The Open Society and its enemies', in the section on Hegel, is very good.

What your 'fallacious 14' is missing, is the supremacy of the state, understood as an essentialist a priori force of nature, against the individual. You are missing the disappearance of the individual, the disapperance therefore, of the ability to dissent, debate, question.
You are missing the integral notion of struggle and the glorification of the state against the individual, as well as the nation against all others.
You are missing the notion of exclusionary purification.
You are missing the rejection of reason and the elevation of intuition and emotion, particularly, that of the leader.
You are missing the charistmatic leadership, and the requirement for propaganda.
You are missing the mythic element.

Your '14' are irrelevant 'junk' and I assure you, are in no credible dictionary or political science text.

Posted by: ET at June 5, 2006 5:34 PM

Regarding Canada as an al Qaeda target, here is our nomination by Osama himself:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2455845.stm

I am still open to evidence that it has nothing to do with Op Apollo or Enduring Freedom, but that "...we are a target because of who we are. And how we live. Our society, our diversity, and our values. Values such as freedom, democracy and the rule of law." (PMSH, Speech to Recruits, 3 Jun 06)

Posted by: agitfact at June 5, 2006 5:44 PM

Rule of law would be a biggie if we really had it. More than a decade of audits on police complaints, child protection issues, health care issues and more show we don't. What's more our governments municipal, provincial and federal have all balked at dealing with the results of our audits and putting things right.

Posted by: Anne Marsden at June 5, 2006 6:03 PM

agitfact - I don't see how you can obtain the evidence for either set of causes as proximate causes, i.e., that a terrorist act in Canada is due to our military activity in Afghanistan or elsewhere, versus, that it is an attack against democracy.

Islamofascism is an ideology that rejects democracy, individualism, science, etc, etc. and is attempting to enforce a repressive extremist version of Islamism in countries, either by direct conquering or by indirectly enforcing the 'host country' into subservience.

You can read the ideology of Islam as a world ideology and the ideology of subservience in the Koran. That is the basic cause. The reason it is emerging in expression now, is because Islam is in a crisis mode. Islamism is not suitable for a modern industrial economy; it hasn't modernized; it is rejecting modernization and reform and is attempting to, violently, 'return' to its roots.

The ideology of Islam is against democracy and, in its attempt to reject reform, is against democratiziation everywhere. That includes in Afghanistan and Iraq - as well as in all democratic states.

So, for you to focus only on the 'immediate cause' or 'proximate cause' is, I suggest, an error. You have to consider why Islamism has emerged in its extremist form, over the past decade.

Posted by: ET at June 5, 2006 6:07 PM

I’m amazed at John Moore on CFRB who was critical of multiculturism , just now. I seldom agree with anything he says. But he mentioned it was a mistake to think we’d try multi and then just wait and hope things all worked out someday. He said Canada needed to stand up for what it is.

At first I thought he was being sarcastic. But he was serious. Good for him.

Also several Muslims took responsibility for the alleged acts. Maybe we are seeing some healthy change.

Posted by: nomdenet at June 5, 2006 6:20 PM

Dr. Dawg said

"12. Rampant cronyism and corruption

13. Fraudulent elections"

Well, no, I didn't. Spittle cloud your monitor?

But Steve, although I would have some difficulty with your definition of fascism, ET is just cherry-picking his own version. Mythic elements, for example, might have fuelled Nazism, but where were they in Mussolini's corporate state? Propaganda? It's used by every state. Including, if people here can be believed, by the Canadian state under Paul Martin. (But, as we all know, propaganda has now been stopped, and replaced with Truth.)

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 5, 2006 6:34 PM

maz2
Blatchford's article is more than twice what you posted as LGF truncated the article.
It is well worth reading all of it.
To access it go to google news,search for Ignoring the biggest elephant in the room,click on the version from 14 hours ago, the full article is there at least for the time being.
I encourage all to read it.

Posted by: Rich at June 5, 2006 6:38 PM

TEST
Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice
test. The events are actual cuts from past history. They actually
happened!!!

Do you remember?

-1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by
a. Superman
b. Jay Lenno
c. Harry Potter
d. Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40

1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by
a. Olga Corbett
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver
trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindberg
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to
take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into
the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Nope, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?

So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics
intent on killing us,

Posted by: Tonto at June 5, 2006 6:53 PM

ET,

I'm a little rusty in Aristotelean causality, but I do remember the Law of Identity or Non-Contradiction: "A thing is what it is; it is not what it is not."

We can discuss mediate and immediate causes without ever reaching a conclusion that would support practical action. What we'd better find is the sufficient cause that would provide adequate explanation and indicate a practical response.

Considering that the only "international terrorism" we had in Canada before 9/11 was directed against other countries (USA, India, for instance,) I think that Osama's stated view of us is sufficient to indicate the problem and suggest a response. Al Qaeda can be dealt with, but treating every member of Islam as a potential ideological enemy would be a little difficult.

Posted by: agitfact at June 5, 2006 7:00 PM

Dr. Dawg:

My deepest apologies for the wrongful attribution.

I meant to say Steve D.

Forgive my typo?

In any case the LIEBerals still have much to answer for. And terror elements in Canadian society aren't going away any time soon, as long as a virulent strain of jihadist Islamic militancy finds creedence among a small but significant minority.

In any case, one can't tar PMSH with the terror in Canadian streets brush, because even if one accepted the unproven logic connection that troops in Afghanistan create terror at home (notably denied by Gen. Hillier), then the 'blame' would accrue to the Liberals who sent them there in the first instance, in the reaction to post 9/11 events.

But then who said jihadists have to be critical and logical thinkers; given their predelictions?

Posted by: Hans Rupprecht at June 5, 2006 7:05 PM

penny: I should clarify my comment re the Muslim community policing themselves. I would expect that any citizen must report acts of crime, or reasonable suspicions of such activity.I would also expect that they would not aid nor abet criminality.This is so regardless of any other identifier, ie, race, gender. But, just as I refused to put on the manteau of the rapist because I am a man, and refused to march with feminists to "take back the night" to prove I am not a misogynist, I do not expect Muslims to act guilty if they are not. Nor would I expect insincere mea culpas would make any of us happier. Asking them to police themselves is therefore useless. And, it is always the first thing that totalitarian states initiate; neighbourhood spy rings. We spent a whole lot of money and a whole lot of souls, ongoing today,to defeat those ideologies.

Posted by: mike s at June 5, 2006 7:10 PM

Mother, are Mohammed Mahjoub and Mahmoud Jaballah of Egypt, Syrian Hassan Almrei, and Mohamed Harkat all Muslims?

Yes, Virginia. Mohammed Mahjoub and Mahmoud Jaballah of Egypt, Syrian Hassan Almrei, and Mohamed Harkat are all Muslims; all Islamist terrorists. ...


'Freedom Caravan' vigil at MP's office Thursday

By MICHAEL JIGGINS

Staff Writer

More than two dozen protesters are expected to attend a vigil outside Leeds-Grenville MP Gord Brown's Brockville office Thursday to bring attention to the plight of three men being held without charges in a Kingston-area prison.

The vigil is being led by members of the Freedom Caravan, a group making its way to Ottawa where hearings are planned on the controversial security certificate issue.

Jim Riesberry, spokesman for the Brockville branch of the Council of Canadians, said about a dozen local residents are expected to join 20-25 Freedom Caravan members at the rally.

He said the caravan will arrive here from Kingston for the 5 p.m. event at the Conservative MP's office, part of about 15 stops it's making before arriving in Ottawa.

"Right now they are just making people aware of the terrible injustices that have been perpetrated," said Riesberry.

"They're being imprisoned the same way the men are being imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay - without trial, without charge."

Mohammed Mahjoub and Mahmoud Jaballah of Egypt and Syrian Hassan Almrei are being held in a special holding area inside Millhaven Penitentiary on a security certificate.

A fourth man, Mohamed Harkat was released on bail last week and a fifth man was released in February 2005.

Riesberry said level of public awareness about the detentions and sweeping powers security certificates give authorities is limited.

"They should be aware, but it hasn't had the major push. They'd be more aware of Guantanamo Bay than they would be of (what's happening in) Canada," noted Riesberry.

He said he believes the majority of Canadians would be upset by the situation - if they were aware of it.

"They may be guilty as sin, but we have a tradition of people being innocent until proven guilty. But we have, for some reason, refused to charge and try them ... it's unbelievable for a country like Canada," said Riesberry.

He said Brown's King Street office is being targeted because "he's the federal [Conservative] member." ...
http://newsfeed.recorder.ca/cgi-bin/LiveIQue.acgi$rec=18210

Go here for the "sponsors" of "Canadian Cindy", Canadian style. Leftists in Canada aping those "bnmjhtfs' Americans, as Carla Parrish said.
www.homesnotbombs.ca

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 7:13 PM

Tonto,

your quiz reminds me of an example of logic I came across in Copi's "Symbolic Logic" text many years ago -

A scientist wanted to find out what got people drunk, so he tried scotch on the rocks, bourbon with ice, gin with ice, rum with ice, rye with ice etc. etc., got drunk every time, and concluded that the cause of drunkenness was ice cubes.

The ice cubes in your quiz obvioulsy are the Muslim males. What is the equivalent of the alcohol?

Posted by: agitfact at June 5, 2006 7:21 PM

WOW agi your a bigger idiot than I first thought.

Posted by: FREE at June 5, 2006 7:29 PM

Agitfact, your ice cube analogy is amusing but flawed. It is the same as people blaming criminal behavior on being poor. It disregards (and actually insults) all those poor people who grow up poor and aren't criminals because you ALWAYS have a choice of whether or not to take that step and giving people excuses does not work for me. People are responsible for their own actions - period. No matter how down-trodden or abused, they always must make a choice and some choose the high road and some don't - the ones who don't, should be held accountable because not to hold them to account means that those who took the high road are tossed to the side like nothing when what they did was right. They chose to do what was right instead of hurt innocent people so those who pick the wrong path should deal with the consequence of that path.

Posted by: Trey at June 5, 2006 7:41 PM

ET

from Wikipedia:

Fascism in Italy combined elements of corporatism, totalitarianism, nationalism, militarism, and anti-Communism.

1.corporate power protected
2.distain for human rights
3.powerful and continuing nationalism
4.identification of enemies/scapegoats
5.supremacy of the military

There are five of my points referenced in the one sentence.

I don't think you looked or give it much thought. I think you were so busy thinking I must be wrong that you didn't see the forest for the trees. I can go on if you wish. All fourteen are referenced on the Wikipedia page. They are not listed per se but are there nontheless.

Posted by: steve d. at June 5, 2006 7:50 PM

I'll just observe that in the pic Jack seems to be smelling his fingers... checked, probably, to see if he messed himself after realizing with shock just how assininely stupid he has been!

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at June 5, 2006 7:53 PM

Trey, your post of 7:41 pm hits the nail on the head.

Posted by: Paul from Vancouver at June 5, 2006 8:02 PM

I'm not going to insert myself into a spirited debate, but citing WIKIPEDIA? Sheesh, that's pretty pathetic.

Posted by: Mississauga Matt at June 5, 2006 8:15 PM

This guy can't be for real. Anybody who's name is Jac-u-layton has gotta be a dick.

Posted by: attheedge at June 5, 2006 8:23 PM

Another Terrorist Attack Coming Soon?
CBS News | June 5, 2006

Posted on 06/05/2006 4:14:43 PM PDT by West Coast Conservative

U.S. officials believe Canadian arrests over the weekend and three recent domestic incidents in the United States are evidence the U.S. will soon be hit again by a terrorist attack. Privately, they say, they'd be surprised if it didn't come by the end of the year, reports CBS News correspondent Jim Stewart.

The first of the domestic incidents, all of which drew little attention at the time, began with the holdup of a string of Torrance, Calif. gas stations last summer. Muslim converts who bonded together in prison planned to use the robberies to finance attacks on 20 Army recruiting stations.

Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton admits they stumbled on the plot during a search.

"Make no mistake about it," Bratton said. "We dodged a bullet here — perhaps many bullets."

Police in Toledo, Ohio, busted another cell in February. This one consisted of three men training to attack U.S. forces overseas. Once again, luck played a role. When they tried to enlist someone in their mosque to help, he turned them in.

"These individuals are often hiding in plain sight in cities like Torrance and now Toledo," says John Pistole, a FBI deputy director.

Two months ago, a pair of Atlanta men, one a Georgia Tech engineering student, were arrested not long after communicating by e-mail with two of the suspects arrested in Canada over the weekend. The Atlanta men are charged with videotaping domestic targets, including the U.S. Capitol and the World Bank.

Analysts now conclude similarities between all the cases were dramatic: All were self-financed, self-motivated, and in each case the men were seeking out others to join their cell.

In short, Osama bin Laden didn't pay for these plots, recruit for them or even know of them. They were all totally homegrown — even amateurish. But if four, including the one in Canada, have been uncovered in just 11 months, officials fear there are inevitably other plots that have not been and are maturing even now.

The next attack here, officials predict, will bear no resemblance to Sept. 11. The casualty toll will not be that high, the target probably not that big. We may not even recognize it for what it is at first, they say. But it's coming — of that they seem certain.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1643925/posts

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 8:41 PM

Ted; to be clear, I did not specifically say anything regarding Liberal vs Conservative. What I did say is that action was taken quickly under our new government. Who knows what Martin et al would have done with it? Dithered? Would they keep it hush hush that we have terrorists in Canada and hope it would go away?

Also if you notice I said terrorists should no longer be able to use the naivete of too many (from desk sergeants, fertilizer salesman, flight instructors etc.) against the citizenry of this country or any other, that includes the U.S., Denmark, Holland etc. I don't believe Americans deserved 9-11 and I fully support their President in his fight against terrorists, but if he deserves criticism for being asleep at the switch... If anyone of authority in ANY country is guilty of having prior knowledge and sitting on it...

But you are right I definately implied Liberals and Dippers in our Country.

Posted by: Cheri at June 5, 2006 9:00 PM

Were they "suicide bombers".. ??!!


I would think that these devoted terrorists could easily have become suicide bombers driving their cube vans filled with the fumes from ammonia fertilizer and diesel fuel to their Canadian targets.

I personally believe these nutcases were suicidal and would have driven their explosives to these reported targets:

CN Tower
Toronto downtown stock exchange
Peace Tower on Parliament Hill
... possibly even 24 Sussex

Canada with our own homegrown suicide jihadists ... go figure ... ???!!!!
http://www.voy.com/178771/1726.html

Posted by: maz2 at June 5, 2006 9:09 PM

It's great to live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty.

Posted by: lberia at June 5, 2006 9:29 PM

Any chance the NSA piped data to CSIS to get this investigation started or wrapped up? (Actually, the CBC alluded to this....) IF true, I am glad they helped save Canadian lives....

Posted by: Mike Schmidt at June 5, 2006 9:38 PM

agitfact - why does understanding the militant nature of Islamofascism ALSO mean 'testing every Muslim'?

And the fact that 'the only international terrorism we had before 9/11' etc..was not Islamofascism, does NOT mean that Islamofascist terrorism in Canada is due to 9/11 events or even our involvement in Afghanistan. That's the fallacy of 'post hoc ergo propter hoc'.

steve d. So what? You quote
"Fascism in Italy combined elements of corporatism, totalitarianism, nationalism, militarism, and anti-Communism" and state that they are the same as your list. They are not.

Because someone uses the word 'nationalism' does not equate with 'powerful and continuing nationalism'. That would be valid for France, for Iran, for Israel and so on. Are they fascist states?

I can do the same with all your terms. You are not defining fascism correctly.
No, all 14 are NOT listed in Wikepedia as indicative of fascism. THINK. Is cronyism and fraudulent elections really a symptom of fascism??? I went through your list above, and showed how not a single one of your terms is indicative of fascism.

Have you read the books I suggested?

Dawg - you wrote: "Mythic elements, for example, might have fuelled Nazism, but where were they in Mussolini's corporate state? "

Mythic elements are an essential component of fascism. I suggest you read Mussolini's "what is fascism 1932', wherein he writes 'fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and heroism...'the real directing forces are quite out of their (human) control"..."it affirms the immutable, beneficial and fruitful inequality of mankind"..."the foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, its aim"

[Note: this is anthropomorphism, giving a conceptual identity a human and biological reality]...'the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality".."a doctrine must be a living thing, ...Fascism has created a living faith"..

This notion of the State as an organic entity, with a conscious Will, is mythic. ...

Propaganda as an integral part of governance is necessary within totalitarian regimes whether communist or fascist. It is not necessary in democracies, which have free speech, which will 'out' propaganda and reveal its fallacies. Recall the laughter and mockery of Martin's propaganda election ads (Guns. In our cities).


Posted by: ET at June 5, 2006 9:51 PM

I refused to put on the manteau of the rapist because I am a man, and refused to march with feminists to "take back the night" to prove I am not a misogynist, I do not expect Muslims to act guilty if they are not.

As well you shouldn't, mike. But the difference between the rapist and the misogynist in your example is that they aren't committing crimes against the public invoking their religion. They aren't part of a group. They are acting alone. Muslim atrocities are in the name of Allah, the diety of the collective community.

I do expect and hope moderate Muslims feel guilty about about the intolerance, primitiveness, polygamy, female abuse, jihad, and all of the other dysfunction their religion has at core. But, time is passing, atrocities in the name of their religion have escalated to a global fascist level and their silence is deafening. Collective guilt isn't necessarily a bad thing. It ended slavery and forced a nation to re-think Jim Crow laws. It turned the once fascist Japanese and Germans into pacifists.

Muslims, in my opinion, need to start feeling guilty and denouncing the rot publically instead of the standard denial and deflecting blame.

Posted by: penny at June 5, 2006 9:58 PM

Mike Schmidt:

I would suspect that NSA would likely have been helpful; as they would not be in a hurry to get 'whacked' again.

Given, the recent security accord vis a vis NORAD has been extended to land, and sea I am sure that a collegial relationship could reasonably be inferred if not tacitly alluded to.

If one doesn't respect the right to life; all the others become rather academic. The jihadists have yet to come around to this viewpoint.

It would appear the jihadists have a rather atomized view of society.

Posted by: Hans Rupprecht at June 5, 2006 9:59 PM

Jeez, Free, I'll try to make it real clear for you:

Tonto has listed 12 incidents perpetrated by Muslim males. That, perpetration by Muslim males, is a common denominator of these events. Are there, by any chance, other commonalities, such as the aims pursued in each of the incidents? Or are you suggesting these acts were carried out for fun or the sheer hell of it?

Free, you may not be curious and satisfy yourself with the explanation of the ice cubes. For propaganda purposes, that would be entirely enough. But then, as you note, I'm an idiot; I would want to know more.

Posted by: agitfact at June 5, 2006 9:59 PM

I think Jack needs to wake up and smell the terror. We have to start focusing on survival - as our world becomes more violent and we need to just care about our own kind, we simply cannot allow dissent to interfere with our need for national security. Jack's comments have no place in a safe society, and that's why I think we need more anti-terror laws to prevent this sort of thing. I mean, come on. We have a politician who sympathizes with terrorists. It just can't be tolerated.

We simply cannot allow dissent to interfere with national security. Don't vote NDP.

Posted by: Joe Canuck at June 5, 2006 10:21 PM

Agrifact;

The alcohol is Islam. There are moderate Muslims but Islam itself is not moderate.

Posted by: Valencia at June 5, 2006 10:23 PM

Trey,

I had no intention of impugning poverty as a cause of anything in this case. Most known terrorists are neither poor nor disadvantaged. They are dedicated, at least middle-class soldiers sufficiently motivated to kill and be killed in pursuit of a cause. That is the reality we have to face.

ET,

if the religion of Islam is the problem - you yourself decry the "ideology of Islam," and many of your fellow commenters blame "the religion of peace" - you will have to consider every practitioner of this religion a potential enemy.

Posted by: agitfact at June 5, 2006 10:23 PM

agitfact: "you will have to consider every practitioner of this religion a potential enemy."

No: just those who are Wahhabist/Salafist/Deobandist and are really serious. Who can be isolated and surveilled, if reasonable. If other Muslims are truly Canadian.

Mark
Ottawa

Posted by: Mark Collins at June 5, 2006 10:36 PM

Et
okay there is no nationalism in Fascism unless of course you are talking about real Fascism.

ET Fascism has whatever he wants to have it composed of.
Nationalism is central to Fascism, if you don't know that you don't know squat.

Posted by: steve d. at June 5, 2006 10:53 PM

agitfact - practitioners of fascism in any variation are all suspect. Islamofascism isn't any different.

Your own description of terrorists as "soldiers" drives home the point that you don't want to make. However, the "the religion of peace" is the enemy. We are at war with it. It's adherents are suspect unless proven otherwise.

If Muslims don't like feeling suspect, they can reform their dysfunctional fascist religion. The ball in their court.

Posted by: penny at June 5, 2006 10:58 PM

Wow, good to see racism is so alive in Canada. Jack Layton is like those who supported Hitler and was against fighting him? Do any of you have an education? Do you know what history is? It's a much better idea to hate Muslims instead of separating the terrorist extremists from those that actually believe in what the religion teaches, right? Similar to all the idiot Catholics that claim to represent the religion while being completely hypocritical of the actual teachings of Catholocism. Is Jack Layton the problem? Whether you agree with him or not, there is always going to be trash as stupid as some of those who have posted on here. You racist pricks are no better than those you claim to hate. Please drop dead and make the world a better place.

Posted by: Ben at June 5, 2006 11:14 PM

Yo Ben Gay/Gay Ben, whatever your name is - what "race" we talkin' 'bout here?

Do tell us "what the religion teaches." That should be a doozie.

"Idiot Catholics?" Doesn't that make you a "racist" in your world?

Moron.

Posted by: Mississauga Matt at June 5, 2006 11:36 PM

Sorry to take so long to get back to you Stephen.

It's been a long day at work.

"Evidence that would convince serious people"?

Always opens to the left, Stephen?

Knob..? Doorknob...? Left=open...?

Dont ask me to post photos to help you with this.

Or did you think I meant something else, you dirty minded little knob?

Posted by: Douglas at June 6, 2006 12:23 AM

Wow, Mississauga! Good job reading! If you could you understand English you would see that I am refering to "racist Catholics" who are hypocrites? Get it? No, I didn't think so. All religions teach acceptance and tolerance. The problems in religion are those that manipulate the teachings to preach hate. I hate the hater, not religion or tolerance. Terrorists are a cancer on the earth and those that are spewing this racist garbage are the same as them without the balls to do anything about it. Either way... defined as scum. Mississauga, please learn to read and think intelligently or stop communicating with everyone. Thank you, die.

Posted by: Ben` at June 6, 2006 12:28 AM

P.S. Mississauga, nice homosexual reference. I'm impressed that you can't understand sarcasm and criticize prejudice while making fun of "Ben Gay/Gay Ben". Nice, you're awesome. (again there is sarcasm idiot.)

Posted by: Ben at June 6, 2006 12:41 AM

Simple question for Kate's guests from the left side of the equation. What does Jack espouse as replacement for C-36 and Security Certificates?

This is the point should debate here: Let's examine the NDP-advanced superlative replacement legislation and mechanisms upon which we will rest our national security.

Posted by: Shaken at June 6, 2006 1:05 AM

"What does Jack espouse as replacement for C-36 and Security Certificates?"

We'll all wear burqas and pledge allegiance to allah six times a day.

Posted by: Joe Canuck at June 6, 2006 1:33 AM

C36 represents a completely unacceptable attack on civil liberties. I tore up my Canadian Alliance membership card and mailed it to Stockwell Day when he voted for this piece of totalitarian idiocy. Those who assume this is the solution to the problem are sadly deluded and may well end up classified as "terrorists" when it is convenient for the government in power.

A simple solution to the problems posed by Islamic insanity already exists; the various Mental Health Acts of the provinces. Anyone who has spent any time looking into this so-called religion sees an abundance of psychopathology. The Mental Health Acts provide for indefinite involuntary hospitalization for individuals that pose a danger to themselves or others. Through their statements and actions, very large numbers of muslims residing in this country have demonstrated their mental instability and should be committed under various mental health acts. It is unlikely that they could be treated given their fanatical reverence for a misogynist temporal lobe epileptic pedophile with delusions of grandeur. They could be given the choice of permanent hospitalization in Canada, or return to some of the middle-eastern country-size insane asylums where their delusions are shared by a majority of the populace.

Religious fanaticism is often associated with temporal lobe abnormalities and this happens in all religions. Islam has a singular propensity for extreme psychopathology in the majority of individuals infected with this meme. Any religion that views the personal bomb belt as the greatest invention of the century and has a tendency to automatically call for the execution of anyone who dares poke fun at its prophets should be excluded from this country. We don't give the psychotic rantings of a schizophrenic the protection of "freedom of religion" even if his delusions have a religious theme and islam deserves the same fate. It seems to be impossible to practice islam in the privacy of ones own home and respect the rights of others. In Canada politicians appear to be incapable of understanding this concept so an analogy might make it clearer. Lots of people who have a "conservative" orientation find homosexuality repugnant, but the vast majority of individuals I know couldn't care less what perversions people practice in the privacy of their own homes as long as these acts involve consenting adults. Certain homosexuals have a preference for involuntary sexual relations with young boys and such pedophiles are pursued with great vigor and imprisoned or executed depending on the society. If we substitute religion for homosexuality in the above analogy, then islam would represent the pedophile aspect of homosexuality and it is not a religion deserving of respect, but rather an abberation that should belong in a museum of historical psychopathologies rather than a growing societal cancer in western societies.

I very much doubt that Jack Layton would like my idea of how to replace C36 and security certificates in this country, but then I don't really care what he thinks and I can't think of a better embodiment of the loony left than Jack.

Posted by: Loki at June 6, 2006 4:06 AM

From the Al Quaeda manual:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/aqmanual.pdf


Missions Required of the Military Organization:
The main mission for which the Military Organization is
responsible is:
The overthrow of the godless regimes and their replacement with
an Islamic regime. Other missions consist of the following:
1. Gathering information about the enemy, the land, the
installations, and the neighbors.
2. Kidnaping enemy personnel, documents, secrets, and arms.
3 . Assassinating enemy personnel as well as foreign tourists.
4. Freeing the brothers who are captured by the enemy.
5. Spreading rumors and writing statements that instigate
people against the enemy.
6. Blasting and destroying the places of amusement, immorality,
and sin; not a vital target.
7 . Blasting and destroying the embassies and attacking vital
economic centers.
8. Blasting and destroying bridges leading into and out of the
cities.
...

[The member] should have a calm personality that allows him
to endure psychological traumas such as those involving
bloodshed, murder, arrest, imprisonment, and reverse
psychological traumas such as killing one or all of his
Organization's comrades. [He should be able] to carry out
the work.


Items 7 and 8 look of interest in light of recent events in Canada.

On that note cheers!

Posted by: Hans Rupprecht at June 6, 2006 5:04 AM

Dear Iberia posted at 9:29 p.m. Yes it is great to live in a country where one is assumed innocent until proven guilty. Trouble is its not so great for those for whom this does not apply - parents presumed guilty of child abuse who lose their children despite no evidence and no hearing as is required under rule of law (my posting of 9:19 a.m. is only one example - 13 year olds who spend 52 days in jail despite three bail hearings on a trumped up charge (arson for reputedly setting fire to a scarecrow) and after the witness is found dead, all charges are dropped.) We have many such scenarios in our audits,along with evidence of criminal activity against our most vulnerable, problem is getting the information out, no-one seems to want to know.

Posted by: Anne Marsden at June 6, 2006 7:53 AM

Nice hissy fit, Ben. Again, what race are we talking about?

Posted by: Mississauga Matt at June 6, 2006 8:16 AM

This notion of the State as an organic entity, with a conscious Will, is mythic. ...

ET, this is anthropomorphic, certainly, but strictly speaking not mythic. Myth is transcendental; this notion of the State is, on the other hand, supremely immanentist.

I enjoyed this quotation: [Fascism] affirms the immutable, beneficial and fruitful inequality of mankind. Wasn't it you who averred, a while back, that unequal concntrations of wealth and power create dynamism? Not that I'm calling you a Fascist; but this would seem to put paid to the bizarre revisionist notion that Fascism is a kind of socialism. It's not: it's rationalized capitalism, with an ideology that suits the purposes of the power elites (once called "the ruling class").

Finally, states generate propaganda regardless of the degree to which freedom of speech is operational. These days, in Canada, it's called "spin." You yourself have been one of the pack who has been complaining about the alleged lock-step messaging that the evil "MSM" has been up to, an unholy cabal of Libranos and their media accomplices. Give us a few years of Harper and order will be restored. :)

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 6, 2006 8:22 AM

No, dawg, you are quite incorrect.

Myth refers to ultimate origins of reality, and locates those origins within non-material, ie within metaphysical forces. These forces are thus metaphysical and transcendental (beyond comprehension). Now, the forces can be located within the material entity (internal, immanent) or external (in some mountain, the winds, etc).

So, a fascist state locates its power, its force of existence, within the state (that can also mean within a particular ethnic group). So, a fascist state is mythic; its originating power is metaphysical (transcendental) and internal (immanent). That's mythic. I suggest a bit of reading on myth.

Because fascism affirms inequality does not equate with asymmetry! My god, Pareto's law of wealth distribution is hardly a fascist law. Any population larger than about 100 members moves into an asymmetrical control of energy/wealth.
And that has zilch to do with capitalism but with the ability to control the future. A seed is an asymmetrical location of energy, removing matter from daily use and storing it for future use. Any population larger than that 100, must move into asymmetry of wealth and capital control.

Yes, fascism is a form of socialism. It advocates a collectivist ideology focused around the primacy of the group. That's socialism. The individual is denigrated and submerged within the group. And this isn't 'bizarre revisionism'; the socialist infrastructure of fascism is well-known (read Popper).

No, you cannot equate fascist and communist style propaganda with 'spin'. The difference is the total control of information by a government agency, the deliberate manufacture of fiction and the lack of dissent against this fiction. Our knowledge networks may be biased but dissent is possible via other media.

Posted by: ET at June 6, 2006 9:22 AM

I suggest a bit of reading on myth.

*cough*

I would suggest the same, perhaps beginning with Joseph Campbell and moving on from there. A few bits and pieces of text--sundry appeals to history, inevitability and imagined communities-- do not make up a myth. Follow your own advice.

In any case, a purely immanentist world-view is the opposite of a mythic one. Mussolini didn't spend a lot of time on metaphysics; a few rhetorical asides don't mean much in the context of his corporate state, any more than "God bless Canada" defines the Canadian state. (A transcendental originating power? Don't make me laugh. Mussolini was the ultimate practical dictator, and he knew what power was and where it came from--his blackshirts, not the gods.)

As noted, your point would apply better to some of the architects of Nazism, if not the practice of Nazism itself, not to mention players in movements like the Romanian Iron Guard (Mircea Eliade was a strong supporter, and of course an expert on myth, although he approached the latter from a euhemeristic standpoint.) But my point is that myth, when deployed in such circumstances, remains collateral. Fascism does not depend upon myth, and myth is not always to be found among the ranks of Fascists. A totalizing ideology, certainly, but not one necessarily built upon transcendental notions.

Popper has some interesting things to say, but I'm not overwhelmed by his dualistic (binary) view of politics and society. Methodological nominalism versus methodological essentialism, Aristotle versus Plato? Never mind the tendentious nature of those constructed categories, there's a lot in between a centralized blueprint of society based upon notions of historical necessity and an atomized, egoistic, anti-state world-view (based, incidentally, upon its own metaphysics).

Your odd notion of propaganda--that it can only exist where dissent is prohibited--is noted. Perhaps a little Ellul might help: "We also must consider the fact that in a society in which propaganda — whether direct or indirect, conscious or unconscious — absorbs all the means of communication or education (as in practically all societies in 1960), propaganda forms culture and in a certain sense is culture."

Propaganda doesn't cease to be propaganda the moment there is dissent. That's, frankly, a childish assertion.

Trying to "define" fascism is, in any case, fraught with the same problems as "defining" conservatism or socialism. One can, however, point to aspects of an ideology, finding them necessary, if not sufficient. I am arguing here that myth is not a necessary component of Fascism, unless you stretch the notion of myth past the breaking-point to mean a fashionable rhetorical assertion of the transcendent.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 6, 2006 10:22 AM

Is it just me or has the cat got Jack's tongue. Maybe he is still talking but no one, not even the media, is interested in what he has to say. What a complete putz the man is.

Posted by: Robert J at June 6, 2006 10:30 AM

Anyone notice how much Jack looks like Petee Mansbridge when he covers his 'stach?

Posted by: iggyforpresident at June 6, 2006 10:45 AM

dawg - I certainly don't consider Campbell an authority on myth. His populist text remains that and is not a serious examination.

As for your views on Mussolini, they remain yours. I suggest you read his work.

Popper as dualistic???? My god, how could you get that from his work? Nominalism versus essentialism???? That's not Popper! Where do you get that from? And he wasn't Aristotle vs Plato (I am, he was against both). What constructed categories? Do you know what you are talking about? He most certainly does not advocate an 'atomized egoistic anti-state world view'. You obviously haven't read him.

Fascism uses myth. You have a limited view of myth (ie., the Campbell view). Read Eliade's 'Myth and Reality', particularly his 'attempt at a definition of myth' and you'll see that the notion of a sacred history is paramount in importance. That's basic to fascism.

As for 'propaganda ceasing to be propaganda when dissent exists' - I didn't say that. Propaganda ceases to have power when dissent exists. And I'm not a fan of Ellul.

What is a 'fashionable rhetorical assertion of the transcendent'? Fashionable??? To whom? How?
Again, myth includes the transcendent. Read Eliade.

I'd suggest reading the intro and ch. 6 of Kirk's 'Myth: its meaning and functions in ancient and other cultures'. And Levi-Strauss.

I'll continue to assert my point; fascism is embedded within a mythic idealism; it rejects and is indifferent to external reality and considers that the mythic power can overpower, control and re-mould that external reality. It isn't 'people power' as in the socialist and communist state; it's mythic power.


Posted by: ET at June 6, 2006 11:02 AM

Shawn: Yes. For everyone that chants "Bush lied, people died," I have another slogan. "U.N. bribed, People died."

via newsbeat1.com


http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=22786

Posted by: maz2 at June 6, 2006 11:12 AM

Campbell's populist text? The Masks of God? The Hero with a Thousand Faces? Which of his many texts do you mean? If you want to move on to Levi-Strauss or Eliade or somebody elese, let me know, and then try to apply their understandings to Mussolini. I await this with some anticipation.

Yes, my views on MUssolini are mine. As yours are yours. Your point? I'm interested in Fascism in action, not tags from some speech or other.

Nominalism versus essentialism???? That's not Popper!

Good Jesus, ET, you have some reading to do. Dip into The Open Society and Its Enemies sometime.

He most certainly does not advocate an 'atomized egoistic anti-state world view'.

True, but his approach to society, piece-meal engineering and all, is compatible with such an approach--the libertarian conservative "no such thing as society" world-view.

You obviously haven't read him. I think you've amply demonstrated that about yourself. Incidentally, I'm aware of his critique of Aristotle (primarily in Ch.11 of TOSAIE), but my earlier reference was to Aristotle's use of reason and observation.

Telling me to read Eliade? Now, that's a laugh. Go read him yourself.

Your notion of propaganda was central to your notion of fascism. Now you're in circular argument mode--propaganda to have power requires that it be used by people who are all-powerful. How this aids us in understanding Fascism will have to be elaborated.

Please explain how Levi-Strauss' notion of myth applies to the Italian corporate state. Until then, I'll assume you're continuing to play tiresome academic games.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 6, 2006 11:36 AM

C'mon, Dawg and ET, your erudition is wasted on us. Stick to something we can understand and care about.

A few days ago we were debating the meaning of conservatism and socialism. Here is how a LTTE on p.A11 of to-day's Ottawa Citizen describes the former: "... conservatism is, has been and always will be the path of the insecure, the fearful, the mean-spirited, the self-interested, the morally bankrupt, and the power-hungry."

I don't want to insult anyone, but it does show that vituperation is available to all sides, and doesn't accomplish anything except to confirm the converted.

Posted by: agitfact at June 6, 2006 12:50 PM

Hans:

Dr. Dawg:

My deepest apologies for the wrongful attribution. I meant to say Steve D. Forgive my typo?

Why, yes, if you'll forgive my rudeness earlier. :)

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 6, 2006 2:29 PM

ET
Marxist-socialism is collective primacy of the working group. Fascism is collective primacy of the state. Marxism sees the state as a temporary way station on the road to individual freedom through worker run businesses. Fascism is the opposite, the state controls everything, in partnership with corporate power. Mussolini, the founder of Fascism, himself proclaimed in his famous description of Fascism for an Italian Encylopaedia, that Fascism is the exact opposite of Marxism-socialism.
The focus of Marx is to free the worker from the slavery of being owned by the company. The focus of Fascism is to make the individual subservient to the state.

Posted by: steve d. at June 6, 2006 5:24 PM

It doesn't surprise me to see Comrade Jack espousing such views.

A little background: where I grew up, the major employer was the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources. Now as Sophia Petrillo would say: Picture it...Ontario, 1994. OPSEU goes out on a provincewide strike...ironically enough, against Bobby Rae's bright idea to bring in Rae Days and put the screws to the very union support that put him in the premier's chair. By the time the strike ends, nothing is left but bitter feelings between the union and those SCABs who crossed the line to support their families in one of the very few ways it was possible in that place and that time. Mr. Hampton, if you're looking for a reason why you can't be premier, blame your leader and your own lack of action to represent the people who put you in power in the first place. I grew up in a union household, and I have to say that any NDP government in this province much less this country before I die will be one voted in too soon.

Anyway...I was down at my mom's visiting for Mother's Day as a good boy should. Lacking the monetary resources to support my use of a vehicle, I took the VIA train back to Ottawa. Now, at the time, they were likely training a new crew to drive the trains down the Windsor-Quebec City corridor so they stopped short of the platform. All of us getting on at that stop had to tromp through the First Class section of the train. As I was making mu humiliating march past the 'chosen ones' to my coach seat, who should I see at the back of the train but Mr. Layton and his wife. Now, I would've said something about how a plane from Toronto would've been SO MUCH MORE cheaper than taking a FIRST CLASS train on the same route, but Jackie had his face buried in his dinner so I chose to follow the germaine route I had been taught growing up and did not interrupt his dinner. This, however, is just another example of how the leaders of the Left manipulate their position to elevate themselves above the rest.

From all I have seen, the leaders of the Left in our country come from a basic loathing of the blue collar ethic of most to try to push themselves up to the lawyer/CEO/privileged class of our country. Ultimately, they all learn the same lesson: they don't belong there. That doesn't stop them from bleeding their memberships dry in the name of representing their interests. This is why I have more contempt for the Bob Rae/Buzz Hargrove/Jack Laytons of our world than the Brian Mulroney/Preston Manning/Stephen Harpers: Conservatives might screw you, but at least they'll do it to your face. Liberals try to hide it behind 'tbe good of the province/country'.

Posted by: Reluctant Ninja at June 6, 2006 6:58 PM

Nice to see that there are crazies embarrassing the Conservatives as well.

Since most of you are too daft to know what you are talking about, a couple of actual facts for you to ponder:

1. The police operations and arrests of the last weekend were accomplished without the use of security certificates, or any of the other draconian provisions of the anti-terrorism legislation.

2. Throughout Canadian history, draconian powers have consistently been used to silence political (or religious) dissent or to undermine the rights of otherwise law abiding individuals. The use of the War Measures Act in 1970, for example, played no significant role in the police and court actions which eventually led to the arrest and conviction of FLQ terrorists. The draconian provisions of the firearms legislation are an ever present threat to anyone who dares differ with the "ban the gun" lobby." The Padlock laws in Quebec in the 1930s were directed against religious dissenters from the Roman Catholic Church and political opponents of the fascist Duplessis.

But you guys carry on lying about the issues. It is, after all, what you do best.

Posted by: MDF+ at June 6, 2006 7:51 PM

MDF+, I don't know what's more hilarious...the fact that all of the incidents you mention occurred under LIBERAL governments, or the fact that you don't seem to realize same.

As much as people like to run around like Chicken Little at the prospect of a Conservative government, I have yet to see even one example of rights lost under such a government.

RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES DETERMINED BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE...OH NOES!!!

Posted by: Reluctant Ninja at June 6, 2006 9:29 PM

I am quite aware that all of those things happened under Liberal governments. While I am no fan of simpleminded Conservatives like you and your friends, I have always held a particular hatred for the foul Liberal hypocrites who believe exactly the same things as you and the rest of your neocon hordes, but simply lie about it.

What is truly hilarious is that so many idiots on the extreme right assume that anyone who doesn't worship every gaseous excretion out of Anne Coulter's ass must therefore be a Liberal.

Liberal, Tory. Same old story. A pox on both your foul houses.

Posted by: MDF+ at June 9, 2006 12:25 AM

In our recorded history in Canada,Jews,Slavs,Poles and catholics were all persecuted. Just remember that. We have to educate immigrants and welcome them to our country. Some are bad citezens and should be dealt with as such. Some want to come here to make a new life. Do you know that in the Sudan people are bought and sold as slaves? That is a fact. My one set of grandparents were immigants and had a hell of a time. It's not talked about by the realatives. Names were changed to be more anglosized. We have bad white Canadians that break the law all the time. Open the books and nail the crooks.

Posted by: ok4ua at June 9, 2006 7:02 PM
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