So, kate, are you one of those who says Alberta should pick up its marbles and leave if, for example, Ottawa were to introduce a one percent carbon tax to save the arctic from melting?

As an Albertan and Tory the result comes as no shock. I liked Ralph alot as a leader, but he hasn't don't alot for a few years now. The spending has been unsustainable the past few years. He has tended to act like the Chretien Liberals in the way the government was run. I wasn't at the convention but would have voted against him as well. I only wish he had the sense to annouce his retirement sooner and avoid this embarrassment. He was fading away much too slowly.

No surprise to this Albertan, Kate. King Ralphie has out-lived his usefullness, just like Da Boss.
Sure, AB is doing great right now,what with the highest wages,but you need them. We may have the lowest personal income tax, but we get nailed with tons of "user fees" and "premiums". Point. In 1994, we bought a double-wide mobile home in Ft.Mac on 100' x 150' lot for $9,000. When we cam to Edmonton in 1999, we sold it for $99,900.00. Now prices haven't gone quite as bad elsewhere, but they are still raising fater then anywhere's else in Canada. And why does a liter of gas,with 14.7 cents provincial tax in Ont. cost 99.4, when the same liter, with only 6 cents tax/liter, cost 98.4 in Edmonton? Who's getting that extra money, Ralph?

Oh...and BCLeftie...Kate is in Saskatchewan. Or do you just come in to troll and not read? No need to answer.

As an observer living in BC, I was always amazed that Klein backed down whenever the Feds took an interest in what he was planning. He talked the talk but didn't always walk the walk. I really hope that Albertans take a close look at Ted Morton. If I had a vote, he'd be my choice.

There's a saying that I like but have no idea where it originated.

"Governments are like babies diapers. They need changing regularly and for the same reason."

King Ralph the first is no exception. He has a lot to be proud of but he's resting on past achievements while letting spending rise. It's time to put someone fresh in charge.

As someone from Ontario, now that you're done with him, can we have him? lol. He'd certainly be a major improvement from John Tory and in a different league than our current premier Dalton "Trust Me" McWimpy.

Ralph has always been a leftie. His wife even more so. I believe that Rod Love was the only reason Ralph was ever right-of-center. He was popular for his stand against the teacher's union and nurses, but then he later gave back everything and more. He seems to be politically retarded, not knowing that appeasing those who don't and never will vote for you, while pissing off those who do, is never wise. I wish him well, but it is time that Alberta got an actual conservative as leader of the conservative party.

Sask. residents are allowed to have opinions on Alberta, aren't they?

The real surprise was that he got over 50% in the vote, and so still has to drag on the decision as to when to leave. Like clapping and having the curtain raised for an encore, eventually the clapping becomes a chore for the audience and the performers just keep going. Why could the man not have stepped down after the centennial and left in style, instead of starting an 18 month election for the party leadership.

Then Preston Manning jumps in and says he would consider being the leader? Just what I crave-replacing one senior citizen with another.

BCL, I think a better idea is a tax on the Ontario auto makers who build the cars that emit the carbons. I'm sure you'd support that as a staunch environmentalist wouldn't you.

Your instincts were right Kate....if you take the acceptability of a conservative leader by the praise or accommodation afforded them by the Star-G&M-CBC then it's safe to assume they are no longer an effective conservative.

Ralph rode on his many back to back elections on the premise he had a plan and defined timeline to eliminate Alberta's debt....that task is behind him and he has no salable long term policy/vision to replace it....just some muttering about legacy "projects".

Albertans want a government with a mapped out long term viable agenda that promites their economic security...no party in the Alberta political arena has anything close.....incliding the current PC leadership and party.

Albertans have seen Ralph acting more and more like a government-expanding free spending patronage Liberal and they question his ideals...Alberta now spends more than any other province on provincial spending and building government agency expansion.

That combined with the no agenda and lack of long term committment has Albertans nervous that Ralph and the PCs will turn into another complacent free spending decadent liberal regime that will fritter away all the gains Albertans suffered through bad times to produce.

Strangely enough, Manning's speech to the PC membership last weekend showed the only sign of long term policy planning I have seen in PC ranks in more than 8 years.

Bigcitylib:

Please explain how imposing a one-percent carbon tax will have the slightest impact towards saving the arctic from melting. Or be any more effective than the ridiculously-ineffective Kyoto Accord.

Having lived in Alberta for 18 years (and during the NEP), my sense is that Albertans are as concerned about the environment as anyone else in Canada. What ticks them off, however, is unfairness and the perceived condescending attitude towards the west from central Canada.

For example, if a carbon tax imposed on oil production is viewed as good policy, why is a similar tax on automobile production in Ontario automatically ruled out? And how about a tax on Ontario's nuclear power industry, to compensate for the eventual problems in disposing of spent fuel rods?

It's this attitude in central Canada of "Me good...you bad" that pisses people off, for good reason.

A mainstream columnist said this, and I aggreed... if Klein had announce his was quitting this fall, they would have given Klein a real party with honours galore. Instead he does a Chretien-style long goodbye. Now he has to face the indignity of "losing" this weekend's vote.

I picked my example deliberately. Alberta Leadership contender Mark Norris has explicitly stated that, if elected, this is just the kind of thing that would trigger a March to Alberta independence.

As for automakers, I would prefer some kind of regulation on minimum miles per gallon. Of course, a further increase in gas prices that would result from a carbon tax would probably achieve the same effect.

Bruce, are you serious? You don't think higher gas prices would lead to (more or less) market driven increases in engine efficiency, and therefore to less in the way of emissions. They are already doing that.

In any case, its about time Klein stepped down. Out here he's best known for getting bombed, driving downtown in a government limo, and pushing around homeless people. Alberta will probably shed part of its image as a rednecked backwater when they ditch that clown. I just hope he doesn't get replaced with a seperatist or a christian.

Ezra Levant has a good column:
http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Levant_Ezra/2006/04/02/1517033.html

55% is surprising. Surprising that it is so high, and it's a testiment to the fact that there are no credible replacements for him within the party, not his own leadership.

Part of his public popularity has to do with name recognition and the MSM's investment in cult of personality (you saw the same phenomena with Jean Chretien), but a lot of observers have been agreeing that Klein is past his "best before" date by a couple of years at least.

BCL:

My point was that equity should be an inherent principal in government, including taxation.

The regulation on auto makers has been tried, and achieved mixed results. For example, the fact that SUVs were classified as trucks instead of cars was the principal reason for the explosive sales growth of these gas guzzlers. The sweetheart deal that the automakers got re Kyoto by the previous government was certainly not missed by folks out west.

Raising prices for gas may help to a certain degree, but at some point a significant percentage of consumers reach a level of "fatigue" and simply continue to be price takers.

I believe that Norris' point was directed at any possible federal action directed at Alberta industry specifically. Again, it's not necessarily the policy that is the problem, it's the selective descrimination against one sector or region that drives people nuts.

If what I've heard in the past week or so is even close to being correct, it's highly likely that GM could conceivably go into receivership in the near future. That's because of the DELPHI prposal to gut the union contracts, leaving GM without any a component supplier.

Now, that ought to get the green folks happy. What more could you ask? Less GM cars on the roads.

If the auto plants close, that ought to make the environmentalists happy. Right up until they try to finance their next portest and can't find anyone with enough money to pay for the placards.

The final straw was the budget that increased gov't spending by double digits for the second year in a row.

There is great anxiety in AB that it won't be individuals that piss away the boom -it will be the government.

This, by the way, is exactly what happened the last time too, Loughheed increased spending at unheard rates and left Getty to take it on the chin.

So bigcitylib is suggesting that the markets can respond and technology will help decrease emissions. My jaw dropped when I read his comments.

He has been leaving asinine comments all week that would lead everyone to believe he's a typical lefty and now he is endorsing George Bush’s Environmental Policy. Obviously we've been infiltrated by Karl Rove. Brilliant.

I don't know. Gas here is about a buck a litre out here and you can see the difference. If you drive a cab of course you just up your fares and consume as before. If you, on the other hand, deliver goods by truck you suddenly realize that there are ways to get things done with twice a week deliveries rather than three times, and so on.

My understanding of Kyoto was that, essentially, deals were cut for everybody, including the oil and gas sector, but I may be wrong. The idea was to get everyone into the framework, and then tighten the screws gradually. It isn't like there is an alternative to Kyoto floating about (that U.S./Australian thing doesn't count).

I admire Ralp's record. Latley though I am having the same reservations about the massive amount of spending . It appears to be ging down the usual rabbit holes. Education & Medicare.

We need to save for the future. Ralph is part of the old way. Its time Ralph gave the party over too new blood, for the battles ahead.

Make no mistake . There will be an enegy grab at some point. We need sound ideas & a person who will impliment a firewall to protect citizans against another federal raid on us.

Time to hand the reins to new blood, with new ideas. Ted Morton is that man.

Dinning has always been a closet liberal in my opinion.I thnk he would be a disaster for Alberta. Another Getty.

I was actually in the Delphi plant in Saginaw several years ago to teach a course related to manufacturing technology. I was astounded by the inefficiancy caused by the union mentality. The majority of the employees taking the course readily admitted that they were only there to collect overtime. The people who would have benefitted the most from the course refused to attend because they didn't want to learn something new lest the company start expecting more from them. It was a real eye-opener for me in regards to the left's views.

That union needs to be gutted

Dear Joe Edmonton,

Markets respond to both government and business pressures. I don't se any reason why governments should not be allowed to apply this kind of pressure. Threaten to regulate them up the wazoo and, if they don't respond, regulate them up the wazoo.

PS. George Bush doesn't have an environmental policy, other than to invoke the power of prayer.

Ezra Levant's column is appropriately titled: Knifed in the Back. One of the knives sticking out of Ralph's back has Ezra's fingerprints all over it.

I guess the old adage will prove true again in Alberta: the people will get the government they deserve.

Its interesting to see the spin - "Ralph was always a leftie", "Ralph's wife was running the provincial agenda". Sheesh. Ralph was a lefty? Suuuure. I suggest a rereading of the book Animal Farm.

Dim bulb lib postualtes:"I picked my example deliberately. Alberta Leadership contender Mark Norris has explicitly stated that, if elected, this is just the kind of thing that would trigger a March to Alberta independence."

The acceptance of independence as a second option tto the inequity of status quo confederalism is already well advanced and entrenched in Alberta politics....so this is no surprize except to the terminally myopic red flag wavers in Eastern urban environs.

Secondly Norris has no hope for leadership of the PCs and has to say "shocking" banalities to the MSM to attract attention. However there is enough independence sentiment in the province to tank the PCs IF they put a status quo federalist in charge....Dinning is unacceptable and may independence minded caucus and membership will bail on the PCs for the fringe right parties.

A Manning win for PC leadership would esssentially nip the independence minded PC migration in the bud and secure a majority governmnet for the PC.....but this just buys them some time...the separatists will be nipping at their heels demanding the systemic changes needed to satisfy the confederal and constitutional issues the separatists, independence option movement and firewall conservative constituencies want.

In the end analysis,both hard and soft separtaists will drive the Alberta political agenda until it is defused by changes to the constitution...If Harper or Manning cannot deliver this, Alberta independence (in some form)is a certainty.

For most Albertans, Harper is the last kick at the cat in trying to gain political equity and first class citizenship through federal politics. If he fails to produce the democratic reforms that equalize the power of the regions, the Alberta PC party will become an abandoned rump party as the more hard line independence minded right wing parties ranks swell.

BCL,

Thats all well and good, but a carbon tax will still never "save the arctic" because people will still be combusting oil and emitting co2, just not as quickly. All your solution does is put off the inevitable. The fact is that climate change will happen whether gas is $1 a litre or $5 a litre because our society revolves around cars, airplanes, ships and mass transit.

BCLib....no, Saskatchewan can have opinions about AB.
So why doesn't the U.S./Aussie plan count? Is it because in the last 5 years since Kyoto, the U.S.,without Kyoto, has DROPPED emmissions by 25%, while ours, with Kyoto, has risen 12%? Nah. Couldn't be.

People from Saskatchewan better care what Alberta is up to; afterall, its where we send all of our children. I, on the other hand, am heading East and couldn't care less about the problems Alberta is having. I don't need the province-infatuation that exists in SK, AB, and BC. I have no interest and no time for it.
Saskatchewan: have fun trying to convince yourselves that you don't want to move to Alberta, cause we all know that Saskatchewanites are all either future Albertans or parents of future Albertans...

"are you one of those who says Alberta should pick up its marbles and leave if, for example, Ottawa were to introduce a one percent carbon tax to save the arctic from melting?"

I'm an Albertan that says that. Most of the other Albertans I know feel the same way.

"Sask. residents are allowed to have opinions on Alberta, aren't they?"

Especially since most of them already live in Alberta.

"PS. George Bush doesn't have an environmental policy, other than to invoke the power of prayer."

Really eh, so how is his record on emissions compared to Canada's big city Liberals.

Sorry kate posted this on the wrong subject area. My bad.I thought I was still on the Ralph question.
I forgot to add . If Ralph wanted to leave a real legacy instead of Crietianite one. He should set up a resourse program like Alaska. He would be remembered for a long long time.

It amazes me that he would hurt his own party by staying on as a lame duck for almost 2 years. Its infantile.

That said. Alberta owes a lot to Klien. He did stick to his guns on important issues, & better yet. United many Albertans as a people in there own right. An example was the rebate checks. No matter your stand on this. It unified this Province in one stroke.As did most of us who took a 4% decress in wages for the Childrens future of this Province. So they would not carry our follies with them into there future.

He's made mistakes but than he's human & every 9 months on TV it seems he's appologizing. Who else in this Nation has done so? None & nobody.
At least he stands accountable. Sad though to see he's become like a treasured guest, who has stayed over his welcome.

I personaly will not forget, his barn burning begining & saving us from the abysss.

BCL - "So, kate, are you one of those who says Alberta should pick up its marbles and leave if, for example, Ottawa were to introduce a one percent carbon tax to save the arctic from melting?"

As I indicated to you in a previous topic - yes -try to take our oil revenues and separatism will become a definite possibility. I realize that for many Canadians this fact doesn't even register - as one poster put it - they could care less. Many already see us as the "Country bumpkin cousin" - the one that they tolerate at family reunions.

BCL, climate change is cyclical (wonder how the dinosaurs handled the jungles of the artcic?)and for you to think that instituting a carbon tax will in even a small way, influence global warming, well I would say you have been breathing that TO smog for a little too long.

Mr.Klein is the only encumbant politician,fed or prov,I have EVER endorsed with my vote.Had I still been living in beautiful Ab their last election,he would NOT have earned it.Why?...I'm afraid Mr.Klein has aquired"dome disease",a malady that,I believe,he coined himself.

It is no secret his long,stellar political career was a result of his"touch" with the common man,starting in the pub at the St. Louis hotel where anyone had access to him.

As mayor of Calgary and the
first few years as premier he was beloved and effective.BUT,too many years under the capitol dome in Edmonton erased his ability to understand the commoner any more.That,along with his lack of a vision,ever increasing budget spending and reluctance to "confront" the east on issues important to Albertans have led to this falling out.

I regret he could not leave with more grace,he arguably is Ab's most accomplished politician ever and has earned a huge thank you.

BTW,to call premier Ralph a leftie just goes to show how fucked in the head some people really are.

I gotta say, I'm going to miss Ralph. I had a hell of a lot of fun watching him, drinking with him, campaigning for him, and eagerly waiting for Ralph to piss someone off... and he really knows how to do that.

Ralph epitimized the "Go fuck yourself, I'll do it myself" attitude that makes Alberta the place it is, and I personally had no problem with Ralph giving the finger to any outside the province who felt it their place to tell us how to run our show.

He really should have announced his retirement date to be earlier. He pushed too hard with that one, and he got burned for it. That said, shame on the leadership contenders for allowing such a dismal showing for Ralph.

You can say good things about Ralph, you can say bad things about Ralph, but you can't say Ralph didn't always give you something to say. Ralph was a unifying symbol for a province that was hurt, beaten up, and depressed spiritually. Ralph turned that around.

Whether he did it, or the price of oil did it, Ralph provided us with something to latch on to, and be proud of. He gave us our dignity back after having been smashed down by the east, and suffering two recessions.

In truth, after Getty, we'd have taken just about anyone that at least showed a spark of life.

That's why poor Taft will never be Premier. The shine is definately off ex-football players.

Is Ralph the right man now?

No, as much as I love the guy and his antics, we need to get serious about a lot of things in this province, and we have to be ever vigil in regards to Ottawa, and Ralph talks a good talk, but he stumbles in his efforts to walk the walk.

In the end, Ralph is a builder, not a maintainer, and we need a good, strong manager in the Premiers seat now. One who remembers where his bread is buttered at all times.

Kate is right, Ralph isn't the guy to put the good fight forward with Ottawa. Will Aberta need someone like that... juries still out on that one, and only time will tell.

I don't mind a carbon tax on vehicles... everyones vehicle that is... I don't see why Alberta should have to stand alone on that.

I'll tell you one guy who isn't getting the big chair, and that's Olberg. He's a Twit.

BCL - "I just hope he doesn't get replaced with a seperatist or a christian."

Are you saying that Christians are unacceptable candidates for political office?

Wow. Would you say that about a Jew or a Muslim?

Thought not.

BCL: Sorry to burst your balloon, but Alberta P.Cs will elect a Christian as their next leader. As for separtism, it is lurking in the hearts of all Albertans, even those moving here from the east. So far, the spark to ignite it has not been lit. As Ralph was a card carrying Liberal for years, and during the past couple of years, he has governed as a Liberal, it is no surprise the party has told him to go. Maybe he will enter the Liberal leadership race. His defeat should send a strong message to liberals. You will never govern Alberta.

At least the US and Australia governments had the guts to acknowledge that the Kyoto Accord was an idiotic proposal and backed out of it.

There is a huge lack of understanding about Kyoto...only 32 countries were required to actually reduce their emissions from the 1990 level. Australia, which backed out of Kyoto, had an emissions target of 8% GREATER than the 1990 level according the the Kyoto Accord.

Meanwhile, India, China and the rest of the developing world are exempt. Anyone who has visited SE Asian countries will appreciate what REAL air pollution is...When I worked in Bangkok a few years ago, you could not see past the 12th floor of buildings downtown after 1 pm, the smog was that thick.

Canada produces about 1% of the human-generated greenhouse gases, and all human-generated greenhouse gases account for 5% of the total greenhouse gases produced annually.

How is crapping all over Alberta's oil & gas industry going to "stop the arctic from melting"?

I just don't get it.

Actually Bruce, I think our production of Greenhouse gas represents around 3% of the total in the world. Given that we have less than .5% of the population of the world living here, we definately add to the problem... and then some.

Regardless, I agree, Kyoto in it's "let me give your money to someone else" form, is a joke, and doesn't really do anything for the issue, except create jobs for people who wish to capitalize on Kyoto's wealth transfer scheme... A European "Fuck North America" plan if ever there was one.

William M:

"...3% of the total in the world. Given that we have less than .5% of the population of the world living here, we definitely add to the problem..."

Canada is the world's second largest nation by landmass operating a resource based economy in one of the coldest climates. I can see our country using much more energy per capita than...Europe, Korea, New Zealand, Japan, Singapore, etc.

We're part of the problem? Is developing our resources to support a healthy economy a problem? I for one believe that your view on what's a problem would change dramatically if you were having a heart attack in Bangledesh.

Sooz,

Sorry, I should have said "crazy evangelical christian".

Rather a "crazy evangelical christian" than a liberal.

The April 3, 206 edition of Time features an excellent cover story about climate change. Some of the content about the growth of industrial capabilities in India & China are startling. eg:

"China's total electricity demand will rise an estimated 2600 gigawatts by 2050, which is the equivalent of adding four 300-megawatt power plants every week for the next 45 years."

"India's energy consumption rose 208% from 1980 to 2001, even faster than China's, and nearly half the population still lacks regular access to electrivity"

Preston Manning could have made a serious challenge for leadership of the party at any time. Timing IS everything, though...

Leftists will soon be longing for the rule of King Ralph.

So you'd suggest letting a country such as China achieve a per capita ratio of pollution output equal to Canada's, because you would want the hospital service to be the same as ours???

Dude, pollution is an issue, and it needs to be dealt with.

Hey, it's no skin off my nose, I don't have kids, and there's more than enough in my lifetime.

Development of resources is great... I'm a complete, devoted, no need to be born again Capitalist... (whose had experience in hospitals in 3rd world nations by the way so careful lest you speak of that which you know nothing about, especially given that many of them render far and away better service and results than our own, with doctors that make many of ours look like Mickey Mouse.)

I don't have a water metre, and I don't want one. I don't like to control my habits, but I do so because of the greater good. Trust me when I say, your either part of the solution to pollution, or your part of the problem.

And yes you dumb bunny, every time you open a can of beer, twist a top off, bag your garbage, buy a newspaper, change a diaper, light a smoke, turn up your heat, fertilize your garden, drive your car, pull the sheets up over your head, turn off your alarm clock, turn on the TV, or your computer, radio, stereo. Each time you open your fridge and take something out to eat, or put something left over back, brush your teeth, drink chlorinated water, or a Timmy's coffee, you become part of the problem.

You, I, and everyone else is part of the problem. You equate where we live as part of the reason for our consumption, and thats true.

No one said we had to use plastic containers did they. No one said we had to build Cities with Urban sprawl... You could fit Mexico City, with 20 times the number of people, into Calgary or Edmonton. We leave a big footprint, and we give little back.

I used to spend my time as a youth in the Rockies hiking. I could go for days without seeing anyone. Now your lucky if you can go 25 feet without running into Germans, Australians, and Japanese crawling around through the terrain.

I don't begrudge them the experience, but the truth is the eco-system isn't designed to handle that kind of traffic.

Take a drive up the Pacific highway and look over your right shoulder as you head north... not many tree's eh?

Take a sip of water from Halifax Bay, and then get over to the hospital, you just drank someones toilet water.

Have you ever stood on the end of a pier in Toronto and looked down? 15 feet deep of fricken foam a mile out before you ever see the water. (that is getting better though)

Or swam in Lake Manitoba on the beach as all those weekenders flush their effluence into the lake.

I refuse to accept flyers, and I figure I save at least four trees a year because of it. Do you accept all that junk on your doorstep?

I'm willing to do my part. I try to be concious of the reality of my consumption. If you think turning Northern Alberta into the same landscape as the moon is good... well dude, your just kidding yourself.

Have you ever seen it up there? Pictures of bombed out Europe after WWII look more appealing.

Develope resource yes, clean up our shitpile yes... continue on with the attitudes we currently have... hey, as I said, nothing is running out before I'm dead, so in the end it's not the skin off my nose I worry about, but perhaps if you've kids you might think a little harder about it.

I'll add one other thing. Calgary, for example, gets more sunlight per annum than almost any other place in the nation, and is a prime candidate for Solar Energy.

Ontario, a province with massive debt, way more pollution problems, constantly hungering for power, is a believer in Solar. They even put a program together so that home owners could take advantage of Solar Energy. Building a 2000 square foot home using solar energy for heat and electricity cost the home owner under Ontarios program 5K.

The real cost is around 35K, but the Ontario government saw the benefit in the long term, with homeowners selling excess energy back to the grid.

In Alberta, our Government won't pay for that type of program, even though it makes more sense here than in most places in North America. Fair Enough.

So when I offer to pay the $35K to have my home done, I still can't. I can't because Enmax refuses to provision to purchase back excess power.

Oh yeah, we are really developing our resources alright, the ones that make Oil companies and Governments money, while fucking up the environment.

So yeah... I really think we can be doing a lot more, but people have to understand what can be done, and in what context. Doesn't make more sense to take advantage of alternative energies and save our expendable ones for industry?

How much less pollutants would we be pumping in the air in Calgary, if 375,000 households stopped using Natural Gas, and started using Solar. How much coal wouldn't we burn in our power plants?

Anyway, like I said, it's all around for me to take advantage of... and then I'm dead, so in the end...

William, quit scaring the kids.

The earth is not actually your mother. -sarc-

Rather a "crazy evangelical christian" than a liberal.

I dunno, this smacks of a "tomayto, tomahto" choice to me...

William MacDonell:

Apparently you missed the entire point of my post re China...it was inserted as an illustration of the fact that the Kyoto Accord is an idiotic approach to the problem, given that so many countries are not bound by it. And those countries that are included, with perhaps the exception of Norway, are all on course to miss their emission targets by wide margins.

I am all for cleaning up the environment, and I think that I do my part, but a system of wealth transfer masquerading as an environmental issue is not the way to go, especially if it places our oil & gas industry in peril.

Oh, and on behalf of the gene pool, thanks for not having any kids...

I've got to agree with Kate, and it's funny that we had the same conversation at home this morning. "Who's Shocked?" is what we were saying. Once again, the MSM, Lefties, and live off of CBC and CTV crowd were totally out of touch. Still this afternoon, they're all crowing, "Who saw this coming?"

If you have friends in Alberta, and follow blogs at all, you'd find the 55% result just about right.

Liberal Ralph lost touch with his base when he began spending harder than the federal government. Ralph, is a conservative by name only. And, his annual sabatoge Harper remarks didn't win him any points either.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out Ralphie.

re the kyoto slush fund... can someone explain to me that if canada or any of the other participating countries fail to meet there quotas they pay a penalty to china, a non participant, or the other participants who have met ther supposed quotas. how does buying credits from another country cleanup the problem here ? of course it does'nt but what do i know except that maurice strong and the UN have surpassed his own level of scamming with the buying of a forest in costa rica on the ontario taxpayers dime. total crap.

The idea behind the system to purchase emission credits is this. A country that cannot make its target can purchase, for cash, credits on a per ton of carbon basis, from another country that is below their target level or is unrestricted. So, with enough cash, a country (or industry) can continue to pollute just as before as long as they can find a seller.

This is what makes it a wealth-transfer system rather than being an effective means of reducing pollution. As long a you are prepared to spend the cash, NO impact on the environment. Only the UN could design such idiocy...

BigCityLib: Your issue isn't saving the arctic. If so, rather than a carbon tax, you would advocate a doubling or tripling of the gasoline tax at the pump, where users fill up with the carbon-based product that runs their vehicles.

Your issue seems, instead, to be the typical Liberal neo-racist Alberta bash-trash talk that we have become used to and is, not carbon taxes, what makes me think it's time for Alberta to go.

You seem to have this totally misplaced belief that government can just impose a carbon tax and only those nasty Alberta oil companies will pay.

It's like they say about drugs BigCityFib - just say no to the SUVs that clog Ontario's freeways and you can save the arctic.

But that's too simple. How better to engage in your racist slurs and trash talk, than get off your fat Fiberal duff and do something yourself.

Click.

sda commentators are getting me depressed today.

To stay on topic, here’s the flow: Albertans want to ensure no NEP-style national program is imposed upon them, whether it be in the name of “equalizing the wealth” (aka – politics of envy, aka: bl**dy lazy communists) or “environmentalism” (aka – hypocritical rich b*st*rds, either exploitive, or with uneasy consciences). Dealing with the former will put me off my feed, so let’s pick up William’s thread – he’s often sensible, but seems to have bought the pig on this one.

Look, it's really simple. The current Kyoto-style incarnation of the environmental movement finds many useful idiots because the solutions to imprecisely-stated alarmist “problems” (which are usually model-driven worst-case scenarios) abrogate any need to fundamentally change personal behaviour, diminish personal responsibility, and permit real issues to be indefinitely deferred.

Now, I ain’t surprised that BCL is clueless, but to find the usually astute sda commentators this confused...

Do I need to draw diagrams? In crayon?

Go read Dorothy Sayer’s “Creed or Chaos”

Dear Bob,

A gas tax is a variety of carbon tax. I am assuming that is what we have been talking about. If Norris is speaking of something different, then some of what I said earlier will not apply. So would Albertans welcome an increase in gas taxes, or would this drive them over the wall?

As for Kyoto, the point is you have to start at somewhere, and this is the point from which you start. There is nothing else going around (and again, the U.S./Australien thing is a total fraud) that will replace it, and unless you are of the opinion that this is all a commie plot, you need some kind of international framework.

Now, my understanding of Kyoto is that everybody got a loophole. The shrieking from the business community was entirely empty, because basically they were required to do almost nothing of practical consequence in the immediate future. That is probably whats behind Harpers semi flip-flops on the issue. He is beginning to understand how little the treaty commits him to.

But the oil and gas boys don't even want an ineffective treaty in place. Because it might lead to something more down the road. That's indefensible.

>> Halifax Bay

No such place.

RIGHT ON BOB!!!!!!

Hey bigsissyfag the point of the matter is that M Strong and assoc. set the thing up so they could do some skimming of the top for themselves. oh sorry I forgot they're liberanos so "there's nothing to see here, move along, move along."

Do you still have that 1.5 cent /litre deficite tax on gas up there? I thought so. Trouble with ANY tax is that it doesn't disappear, the rate just goes up.
Fact: The arctic is warming up. Live with it because you don't have a choice. All fine and dandy for bigcityfib to get on his bike or the metrorail but try explaining this to the Saskatchewan farmer or the family of four that need more groceries than will fit in your fanny pack. Oh, at 40 below to boot.

As for King Ralph, He did do a lot for Alberta but it is time to move on. A great part of the 55% that voted did so out of loyalty. The last couple of budgets that have come out sound more like lieberal dreams.

lets see...the world population is 5-6 billion and climbing. i wonder how many tons of methane we produce annually. then theres all those other critters running around doing the same thing. just wondering how the credits fit into that senario.

Too many of these posts are off topic. It seems to me the majority are responses to baiting from bigcitylib and that ilk - trying to drive traffic to their own startup or sputtering blogs. It's better that conservatives rationalize amongst themselves and grow ideas, rather than fight bogeys. Kate, it's your site, but if it were mine, I'd ban him.

Ralph is a Liberal 'trapped in a closet'

"just.. come out of the closet Ralph"

There, back on topic.

I also live in Alberta and there has been a lot of criticism of Ralph lately. Nothing in the media, more at the grassroots. He has lacked any vision for Alberta's future and the party paid for it in the last election. I defy anyone to tell me what the PC platform was during the lst provincial election, other than "four more years".

I expected about 60-70%, just below Ralph's minimum, to send a message. I guess the message from the last election has sunk in to the party more than to Ralph.

Note to bigcitylib. WE HAVE NO EFFECT ON THE ARCTIC MELTING!!! And the only consequence of a melting
Arctic is the openiing of the Northwest passage.

William M:
"...lest you speak of that which you know nothing about, especially given that many of them render far and away better service..."

Too sad to even be funny...I can't believe you said that. Just don't get kidney cancer in Beijing...they might just prescribe aspirin and green tea and tell you not to complain when it doesn't work.

You obviously believe that man-made climate change is real and very bad. I don't. It has no more rigorous proof than the existence of Ogo Pogo. But go ahead and support eco-nuts...and help drive the business out of the oil patch. Maybe we can fall back to a cheaper "Beijing" like medical system and just tell everyone to shut up and drink their green tea.

One the largest reduction in greenhouse gases is not the result of a good plan? As opposed to paying Rick Mercer to annoy Canadians with the "One tonne challenge". Because a plan comes from the US it automatically has no merit. Give me a break.

I think you better do some more research bigcitylib.

The obvious solution is for the Federal Government NOT to tinker with Alberta's current boom.

Sit back, collect all the relevant existing Federal taxes and enjoy the ride I say.*

Why mess with success?

JJM

* Québec - like a lot of other provinces - ends up with a chunk of that change just by virtue of BEING PART OF CANADA: perhaps their separatists better start thinking about that fact.

I think the only surprised people re the 55% Ralph vote were probably his most inner circle. A probem with Ralph's syle of leadership is that it tends to collect around the leader, a whole bunch of yes people. Others are not tolerated and it does not encourage highly capable people to even want to become part of the "inner" clique. Push back is inevitable and it happened. Consider who seem to be the current leadership alternatives. Is there even one among them who is strong enough/capable enough to do what has to be done both provincially and federally. I don't know right now but I'm looking hard.

The next leader of Alberta is going to be in a very powerful position and for this we should have a very powerful leader who has around him a solid core of very capable people. The federal situation is tenuous at best and now is the time to focus on Plan B. It is a whole lot more than about a carbon tax, although that does become part of it as well.

I'm looking for a candidate who is not shy about talking about/using the notwithstanding clause (just as Quebec has done for decades) or to challenge some of the ludicrous supreme court decisions, or, or, or.... Harper's crew is trying hard to change things in Ottawa. I don't believe that this is realistically possible (the Liberal legacy is simply to embeded) - but wish him/them well. With the right leadership now - I believe we can do very well in the West. With wimpy leadership we are not going to do very well at all.

Capable yes-people will only remain so until they feel the time is right to make a move - and last week end was the time. Was it just a move - or was it a move by capable people. I don't think anybody is really to sure about what just happened. My surprise is that the 1180 "inside blue" had the guts and the intestinal fortitude to lay it on the table. It was time and things will move forward. Stagnation, doing nothing, was no longer an option.

Ralph does not have to leave yet but not to do so would seem to be untenable. If he leaves very quickly - and the personal ambitions of some candidates who no doubt had at least something to do with the 55% - will be pushing for this to happen. Others will be wanting some time. Now that it is out in the open - hopefully some candidates - other than Preston Manning - may emerge. To see a very rushed leadership race would probably not be a good thing for Alberta.

Survivor Alberta style. Ralph got voted off the island. Too late to go back now folks. Put on a pair of socks and carry on.

It was interesting to hear Mark Norris over the weekend. First he was incredulous and thought Ralph desrved better, his big buddy. Then when talk turned to 55% still being a majority, and maybe he should stay on; Norris suddenly tried to head that idea off into the ditch. Saying something to the effect that the delgates voted and it was time to move on, time for a change.

My biggest problem with Ralph over the years, wasn't so much what he did do or didn't do, it was the way he did it. Through bullying and implying that anyone who was against him wasn't severly normal. His book throwing temper tantrum was indicative of his attitude towards opposition. He could not stand to be criticized or questioned. I think he ruled through fear and intimidation. The smoking incident(in the Ledge) was a good indication of people not having the guts to stand up to him. So the practice got leaked to the media, and the public outcry put a stop to it.

The Klein goverment was spending fewer and fewer days in session than the old Lougheed government (for example). Shouldn't it be more? Are we not a bigger province, spending more money, with more MLA's and more issues?. Klein himself was missing Q.P.'s and Minister's Conferences. He was more interested in finding ways to escape, having his Deputy pinch hit. A man who acted (re)tired, and was out of ideas. An empty tank.

As much as I don't like him, I do feel a tiny bit sorry for him and his wife. I thought it was pretty crappy for their 'supposed friends' to use her as a vehicle for their hidden agenda. They may as well have called her a squaw, it was certainly implied. That sort of attitude will still exist in the party, and it's supporters (and the A.S.C.) after Klein is gone.

At least I'd get a pristine Kidney in China... what am I going to get here... regardless, you don't know what your talking about Martin in regards to third world hospitals. Yes, you can get the straw hut and the medicine man, but you can also get the French and Spanish trained surgeons in third world nations that have more degrees than Carters got pills, it just depends.

I'm not a great believer in global warming as a result of man's interference actually, I think that it's a naturally occurring effect, and that it happens in cycles... that does't change the fact that we pack more useless shit into the ground that wasn't there before, than we ever have at any point in history. Do we really need all that tupperware?

I'm a great believer in the Tar Sands, I should be, I've bet my life and retirement on them. That doesn't mean I have to like the process, nor does it mean I can't be more excited about other technologies which reclaim the oil in a less impacting way.

And yah, I am a fucking tree hugger. Why the hell should business be allowed to cram my mailbox full of shit I couldn't care a less about, or bomb my neighborhood with flyers and such on doorsteps that just end up blowing down the street or populating kittylitter box's.

Let Zellers and Walmart and the grocery chains advertise on TV and Radio. Waste of fricken paper, and the marketing results are mixed at best.

There's a lot we can do that's really easy to do... I'm not a green fanatic, I just hear all these people bitching about pollution and garbage, and yet I still get half a tree worth of useless junkmail every month.

If I had a loonie for every piece of junkmail I get, it would be worth $.85 cents.

William, re your junk mail. Do as I do and stuff all those prestamped envelopes with it and mail it back to whoever. Great fun to send CC applications to the wrong people. The junk one gets in Sears, Bank stmts etc, utility bills etc, all go back in their s.a. envelopes. Try it.

William M., you're a tree hugger because you don't like junk mail that fill your house? I guess most people are then. You could always give the affluent people in the nirvana of Mexico City your paper trash so they can build a new hospital wing stocked to the literary rafters with Hawkeye Pierce Mayo Clinic types (who just happen to be in the neighbourhood).

By the way, the Beijing kidney cancer thing you make light of really did happen. Just be happy you weren't in the same shoes as the young individual who's fate was put in the hands of a health care system that didn't and couldn't care enough to diagnose and treat the obvious.

You can go back to shovelling black sticky sand into your RRSP. Enjoy it before Kyoto kills it.