Maybe the good professor should start saving the planet by a selfless act of self-removal.

Start the good deeds at home.

What do you expect from a "lizard expert"?

Hear...hear Kate. I get so damn sick of those that say the earth is overpopulated.

Stop being part of the "problem"

Another Peter Singer wannabe. If ebola doesn't quite work out, look for the good doctor to endorse active euthanasia of young and old, predicated on 'quality of life,' no doubt measured by the those who 'know what's best' for us.

Eugenics. Hitler would be proud.

Surley the ultimate in self disgust-move over joe&adolph your exponentially grown offspring are here!

In reading Forrest Mims (sorry,
Forrest M. Mims "the IIId") account, Mims seems to be stretching the truth and doing a heck of a lot of editorializing. When you strip away the opinionizing, it seems more that Pianka is giving dire warning of what he believes (and most do not) to be a monumental problem in the world; it does not seem like he is actually advocating the killing of billions. More in the "if we don't do anything, the only way we could survive is if billions die" line of thinking. The same old scaremongering to produce change we've seen from left and right, but not advocating of genocide.

Agree or disagree on the issue of over-population being a problem, and whether Pianka and other scientists are nuts for supporting the idea, but clearly Mims disagrees with over-population as an issue and, instead of debating or even attacking the message, he heaps on the hyperbolic misconstruing and attacking of the messenger.

Pianka's own hyperbole aside, increasingly scarce resources and rapidly increasing populations is an (please note the singular of the word "an") issue that governments do need to grapple with more thoroughly. The problem is that the issue gets lost in the polarized and politicized positioning of the Piankas and Mims of the scientific, political and religious worlds.

Ted
Cerberus

Wasn't this the plot of the Tom Clancy novel "Rainbow Six"?

IMO, the scary part is not the ideas of this crackpot, but the fact that no one called him on it.

Too many people are afraid to voice what they worry may be an unpopular opinion to avoid an uncomfortable situation.

First, he says that we are no better than bacteria and then portrays lower world IQ as a problem. If we are no better than bacteria, what is the difference what our IQ is.

I do not know his details, but in my own experience, too many people associate IQ with education and knowledge. I have met many educated people in my life and a short conversation can usually tell you if they are smart or merely educated.

Trev

While Pianka's methods are undesirable, the message is important - there are too many of us and we use too many resources. The Earth;s carrying capacity is being stretched and our pop. is continuing to sky-rocket and people are becoming richer all the time (think China), using more resources. I for one don't look forward to a planet with 10 billion plus people - where will we find the land to feed all these people? How about the energy?

I long ago noted that some biologists dislike and are uncomfortable with their fellow human beings. That may well be a reason why they went into biology in the first place. Some, doubtless, would be happy if 90% of us were to be killed off. That is a good reason to take biologists' advice with caution.

This topic reveals the truth about leftists. Anyone--ANYONE--leaning even ever so slightly (yes you, ted and peter) towards supporting these dangerous and DEADLY ideas needs to think HARD about publicly admitting this:

"I believe Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were right, they just didn't get to finish the job."

End of debate.

"While Pianka's methods are undesirable, the message is important - there are too many of us and we use too many resources."

While Hitler's methods were undesirable, the message is important - there were too many Jews and they used too many resources.

Interesting how the substitution of a few key words can go such a long way.

Pianka is a crank, a crackpot and an all-round unpleasant bit of business.

As are all those who hint at, or suggest, or imply the wholesale liquidation of their fellow human beings in pursuit of some cause. They deserve revulsion, shaming and rejection.

So much for "scientific humanism."

Well... anyone that believes our current course of growth at all costs and rabid consumption is sustainable is an idiot. I wouldn't advocate deliberate depopulation, but nature is sure as hell going to do it for us at some point.

End of debate.

To inject a little humor (and light) on the topic:

It's nice to know that liberal academia is now stealing their ideas from 1970's Batman cartoon villians.

To quote PJ O'Rourke, the good prof and his supporters are in the:
"We need a lot more of me and a lot less of you"
gang.
I support a close eye being put on him and every one who has indicated support for the strategy.

Hardliner nailed it. Mother Nature will remove us if we get to over-populated for the system. It happens everyday in the real animal world, of which we are a part of.

Nice spinning Hell Dog

"Pianka's own hyperbole aside"

But why should we ignore his hyperbole? His words speak loud and clear how feels about humans and what needs to be done.

" He told a story about how a neighbor asked him what good the lizards are that he studies. He answered, "What good are you?"

......."We're no better than bacteria!"

........quick steps must be taken to restore the planet before it's too late."

A certain Austrian painter had similar view about certain people. He obviously didn't have a grand a world view as Dr. Piankas.

What's most disturbing is that he was given an award and a " .... loud, vigorous and enthusiastic applause."

Cerberus- "The problem is that the issue gets lost in the polarized and politicized positioning of the Piankas and Mims"

Your attempt at making a moral equivalence between a man that sees people no better than bacteria and a man finds the very idea of that appalling, is very revealing.

To all those of you who feel that the world has too many people, I invite you to throw your children in front of a moving train, then step under the wheels yourself. If you think "too many people" is a problem, then become a part of the solution yourself. And leave me and mine out of it.

Ed:

Amen to that.

Overpopulation is the eight hundred pound gorilla sitting in the global corner.

If you zoom out a bit an take a good look at the state of humanity at this time in history ... There is no reason to have so many of us. Like anything else when you have an over abundant supply of anything it becomes cheap. Life has become lot cheaper in recent times.

It might also be interesting to note, in regard to dropping IQs. All the technology and advancements we enjoy in the western world today were invented or conceptualized before 1950. I will name a few ... Nuclear fission computers, jet engine/rockets, insulin and antibiotics, internal combustion, banking systems, lasers, television, advanced mathematics, IE Einsteins theories, most of our great literature and classical music and Jazz... a system of mass education that actually educated. I could go on ... but I think I made the point.

In the last fifty years or so, all that has been done is improve upon those previously invented or developed things. During the same time much has been denigrated or watered down to be almost meaningless such as our educational system.

NOTHING NEW since 1950 .. at least nothing profound. So why are we here? Diversity might be a reason, but only at the expense of the elimination of much other diversity. I do believe that the human being is the most important life form on the planet in as much as it's only one that can study itself and all other things. And that is aware of the Universe itself.

However, such an audience is not required. I would prefer a small attentive audience to a mammoth unruly mob at my concert any day! Dr. Pianka asserts that if most of us don't die soon, most of will all eventually. Sound silly when you say that way.

His claim that the earth won't survive with human poplulation growth is nonsense. The Earth is a ball in space and there isn't much we can do to change that. It's human life on Earth that he fears won't survive (unless will kill most of it ASAP). After we are gone (by whatever means) the earth's immune systems will kick in to play and after a couple of million years ... Presto ... A beautiful pristine blue green ball will be available to whatever arises next.

Dr. Pianka selfishly wants the be around to witness the future. Perhaps he would do well to eat less and exercise more and take in as much as his sorry life will allow.

I personally have a low regard for humanity in general mainly because we seem to be the only species capable of hate, cruelty, murder, deceipt and a bunch of other bad things that your dog would never even consider.

As horrid as it sometimes seems, nature will taking it's course with or without the help of this global Dr. Cavorkian.

I did some quick research, and I have to say I doubt that Ebola would work in the same way the mad doctor hopes it would.

That said, he's still a disgusting fool, and the crowd that applauded him instead of booing him off the stage doubly so.

Pianka It seems is leading the charge for global genocide.
To all those idiots who think where overpopulating the planet, look at the data. Demographicaly where going extinct!!
More Western academic, loathing of Western Deomcacy.

I bet the bad eugenics Prof. ( This theory is as old as the hills & has never worked. How do know? Because in Alberta we listened to nuts like this & are now paying 1/2 a bllion rightfly to those who where sterilised until 1970 by color , crimnality or metal aquity.)thinks he will escape. The fact they want to hide it from the masses , as they see it. Is itself a clue too the monsterious nature of there theory's.

What disturbs me is there idea where not even worth bacteria. Perhaps this is the bad Dr's tuurn to think that if where not worth spit nether is he & his theories.

Overpopulation is a myth.Perpatrated by anti Western fanatics. Do you ever here them revial India or china? You liberals are in love with what you see as Belle Morte. For those less evolved than you , right? Abortion, euthanasia, mercy klling, quality of life murder. All tools nb the socialist liberal tool kit of death.

"All the technology and advancements we enjoy in the western world today were invented or conceptualized before 1950."

Including this very Internet that allows people like you to blow hot air out to the world?

JJM

What's your point?

What a nut job... wow, that's left me almost speachless.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a neighbor of mine who's renting his home.

He told me he was holding off from buying a home. Apparently he's waiting to see if bird-flu becomes a pandemic, because if it does and 10-15% of the population dies, realty prices will go down (which does make some sense -- supply and demand).

As he was telling me his theory, all I could think to say was "Yeah, sure, as long as you're not one of the one's that dies".

Some people seem to think they're too good and smart to die.

A lot of those people contradict themselves, by being athiests but also beliving they'll be "magically" protected.

The people who support the dear Prof., & he himself, would never advocate they themselves would become part of the "solution". They're like socialists who are always quick to share everyone's wealth but their own.

Hmm...

Kate's right. We should stay on subject.

I think Ed Minchau's posting nicely encapsulated my feelings on the matter.

'Nuff said.

All you overpopulation-chicken-littles---I'll give you the time of day when you can decalre that you would be willing to sacrifice your own children for the sake of your cause.

"NOTHING NEW since 1950 .. at least nothing profound."

So Duke, are you pounding out your posts on an IBM Selectric and sending them by Canada Post?

"I personally have a low regard for humanity in general mainly because we seem to be the only species capable of hate, cruelty, murder, deceipt and a bunch of other bad things that your dog would never even consider.

Ever seen a cat play with a mouse or a killer whale play volleyball with a baby seal or see a gopher run into a neighbouring hole to render first aid to another, winged by a 22?

This latent self loathing by so many humans, for the last couple of hundred years is taking it's toll.

"'Spirit,' said Scrooge, with an interest he had never felt before, 'tell me if Tiny Tim will live.'

'I see a vacant seat,' replied the Ghost, 'in the poor chimney-corner, and a crutch without an owner, carefully preserved. If these shadows remain unaltered by the Future, the child will die.'

'No, no,' said Scrooge. 'Oh, no, kind Spirit! say he will be spared.'

'If these shadows remain unaltered by the Future, none other of my race,' returned the Ghost, 'will find him here. What then? If he be like to die, he had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.'

Scrooge hung his head to hear his own words quoted by the Spirit, and was overcome with penitence and grief.

'Man,' said the Ghost, 'if man you be in heart, not adamant, forbear that wicked cant until you have discovered What the surplus is, and Where it is. Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? It may be, that in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man’s child. Oh God! to hear the Insect on the leaf pronouncing on the too much life among his hungry brothers in the dust!'"

Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol

"--I'll give you the time of day when you can decalre that you would be willing to sacrifice your own children for the sake of your cause."

I don't think it's right to lay it on the offspring.

There's been too much of that already for a certain cause.

Here's my 15 tonne challenge:

I challenge all the pinheads that have swallowed the Kyoto wealth redistribution sheme of saving the world by making millions of dollars of payments to our direct competators ( and private carbon credit traders), to dig their way out from under a 15 tonne steaming heap of Liberal Bovine fecial matter (1 tonne a daya day for 15 days) by educating themselves on the subject of the proposed koyoto implelentaion plan.

It is my experience that all those who reflexively promote Kyoto solutions have never read the Kyoto plan and its supporting research documents containing the core threat ( which is still a theory in dispute) and core solutions ( thich is a tax regime based on carbon production). Once you remove the hype and political BS from your eyes, you realize that the carbon taxing regime proposed by Kyoto has Zero potential to effect air-borne toxins or environmental pollution and even less to eleviate the so-called carbon gases which the environment produces naturally.

Take the challenge, step out from under the 15 tonnes of BS ;-)

Cal (12:15): Your attempt at making a moral equivalence between a man that sees people no better than bacteria and a man finds the very idea of that appalling, is very revealing.

No, I'm not making any moral equivalence. I'm not saying the overstated, chicken-little hyperbole of Pianka, saying that the world is on the brink of monumental disaster, is the same as the overstated genocide hyperbole of Mims and other conservatives (as demonstrated here; BTW, does Godwin's Law ever kick in around here?).

All I'm saying is that with all of the hyperbole, polarizing and politicizing of the issue, we ignore the fact that at root there is an issue that society needs to grapple with: the fact that our resource base is diminishing while our populations are increasing.

Conservatives seem afraid to even talk about the issue. To just discuss the issue is not even to take a position on population control so relax Doug, others. It is more to focus attention on the need for newer technologies to get more out of our resources, to perhaps even scale back our own consumption of resources (which I realize is far more anathema for conservatives than genocide - there, that's my addition to the stupid partisan hyperbole). It's just as likely that the discussion of the problem of matching resources and needs could inspire a smart risk-taking entrepreneur to develop some sort of food product or growing technique.

Instead, the left is content to and prefer to keep telling us we are, yet again, on the precipice of imminent natural disaster and conservatives are, yet again, content to and prefer to sit back and demonize a made-up image of liberals because it makes them feel righteous.

At least with the internet, the idiocy of both is on full display for the entertainment value of the rest of us.

Ted
Cerberus

In my post I never advocated the killing of anyone, I simply stated that over-population is a problem and will continue to be. Look at the world's ecosystems - they are straining under the pressure and will only get worse the more people are born into this world. I would never advocate the systematic killing of others, but we do need to start dealing with the issue. How do we do this? Well for starts, we need to reduce the amount of resources we use (efficency and conservation) and perhaps down the road, if the pop. keeps spiraling out of control we need to think about limitng the # of children people have. I know, I know. Many of you will freak out. That's fine. But either we start to limit our pop. or mother nature will do it for us. And no, I haven't advocated killing one person, so quit saying that I am.

Pork rinds for Allah from now on.

Me too.. we are all doomed. Rats are immune.

As "they" say, charrr-ity begins at yer BBQ. +

Barbecue meats linked with prostate cancer(Oh no! I'm doomed!)
Posted by Neville72
On 04/03/2006 9:10:30 AM PDT · 57 replies · 851+ views

Reuters/Yahoo News ^ | 4/3/2006 | Staff
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A compound formed when meat is charred at high temperatures -- as in barbecue -- encourages the growth of prostate cancer in rats, researchers reported on Sunday. Their study, presented at a meeting of the American Association for Cancer Research, may help explain the link between eating meat and a higher risk of prostate cancer. It also fits in with other studies suggesting that cooking meat until it chars might cause cancer. The compound, called PhIP, is formed when meat is cooked at very high temperatures, Dr. Angelo De Marzo and colleagues at Johns Hopkins University in... + more...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1608315/posts

This guy is a typical socialist Elitist with delusions of intelligence. His is an hoary old theory that has caused unbelievable pain for almost a century. Mega deaths as a result.

Eugenics are based on unsound principles. If the Moron would look at world Demographics. He would see Western Nations are going extinct except the liberals hated America. Europe is ding culturally & physically. The birth rate is causing social upheaval. His solution . Mass Murder. After all this would destroy the hated conservative.

A license too kill any who disagree in the name of population control. It allows these fantasists to think like pol pot that a new world can be brought about. Run by academics. The philosopher kings mentality. Kill off 90% of people like they where lice.

Belle Morte. The liberal socialist ideal. Kill , abort, euthanasia, mercy kill. Death to liberals is a sweet thing unless its there own or folks on death row who share the same humanist values. None.
Its also a way to kill despised democracy by these ivory tower humanists. They so love communism or any despotic system. That would kill them off first.

That they tried to silence this information. Shows they know the horrors this would unleash. There hiding something. This guy is a dangerous fruitcake. Considering it seems the libs on this board think this guy is just tickity boo. Here is some info on this budding hustler of genocide.

Go to his site. Man I wonder when this dude ever gets off the high pedestal he resides on. Another narcissist wedded to Darwinian stupidity.

If I remember right in school. By now we should have had 20 billion people . Yet since 1947 fertility rates have plummeted. D these fools ever think that Nature has its own mechanism to deal with overpopulation. That man is above this is a conceit?

I forgot to add . If Ralph wanted to leave a real legacy instead of Crietianite one. He should set up a resourse program like Alaska. He would be remembered for a long long time.

It amazes me that he would hurt his own party by staying on as a lame duck for almost 2 years. Its infantile.

That said. Alberta owes a lot to Klien. He did stick to his guns on important issues, & better yet. United many Albertans as a people in there own right. An example was the rebate checks. No matter your stand on this. It unified this Province in one stroke.As did most of us who took a 4% decress in wages for the Childrens future of this Province. So they would not carry our follies with them into there future.

He's made mistakes but than he's human & every 9 months on TV it seems he's appologizing. Who else in this Nation has done so? None & nobody.
At least he stands accountable. Sad though to see he's become like a treasured guest, who has stayed over his welcome.

I personaly will regret his barn burning begining & saving us from the abysss.

Nothing new or conceptualized since 1950, eh?

Well, what's your point? Everything up until the 1950s was refining ideas invented/conceptualized by 1815.

...Including the doomsday theory that you work off. (Malthusianism)

Maurice Strong has advocated for "depopulation" too.
and again, perhaps he could lead by example...

First off, Dr. Eric R. Pianka should save the planet by hanging himself. We don’t need to kill anyone. Education will lower the birth rate world wide. It is not the western world that is causing over population. Capitalism will develop fusion, or something like it. Using our minds the human race will move first to the moon then mars. I think Pluto would be a good place for killer lefties.

"It is not the western world that is causing over population."

No, but we are using much more resources than those in the 3rd world and that is the basic problem. It isn't neccesarily over-pop. per se, but the fact that we have such a large global pop. using so many resources.

Sadly, this is the logical conclusion made by many evolutionary humanists. When human life is no more valuable than bacteria, why not advocate for a cull to make one's own life better? Survival of the fittest and all that rot...

"Sadly, this is the logical conclusion made by many evolutionary humanists."

Rudester: could you please provide a citation or a link for anyone who believes in evolution and believes in human culls.

Thanks.

Just post the link in a comment or send it to me at:

Ted
Cerberus

"I invite you to throw your children in front of a moving train, then step under the wheels yourself."

Ed, Why punish the kids because they have the misfortune to have freaking idiots for parents?

I've heard a few people start down the "too many people, gotta cull some" road and everytime I've suggested they show some leadership and off themselves, I get a response which boils down to "There's way too many black/brown/yellow people, they're the ones I'm talking about." Fans of decreased populations are racists, plain and simple.

Yes, we are using many resources oil being the worst. But, we will inovate. We do not need to cull anyone. Education will set us free. PS Evolution is a fact, how it works is a theory. Just because it is a fact does not mean people do not have the free will to overide it. For those of you that believe in the bible, humans ate from the tree of knowledge, we can do good or evil, with that knowledge. Dr. Eric R. Pianka is evil.

Dr. Eric R. Pianka, treats all races, dead equal.

"I've heard a few people start down the "too many people, gotta cull some" road and everytime I've suggested they show some leadership and off themselves, I get a response which boils down to "There's way too many black/brown/yellow people, they're the ones I'm talking about." Fans of decreased populations are racists, plain and simple."

Please don't lump us all in together. That's part of the problem. Instead of reading these comments, most of you have made up your mind and see people who view population as a serious see as some sort of homogenous group. It's not about offing people, its about using less resources and educating people to ensure that our pop. does not continue to increase as fast as it is. What's so freaking racist about that?

Rudester: could you please provide a citation or a link for anyone who believes in evolution and believes in human culls.

How about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot just to name a few. Numerous other leaders have placed human life on the same level as animals and behaved in similar ways. And it makes sense if you believe that we are no more than highly organized pond scum.

Just to inject a little extra fuel on the fire:

In the democratic countries of North America and Europe, much has been made lately of the demographic demise of the white people who started those countries; their birth rates are below replacement value, whilst those of recent, mostly differently coloured, immigrants are much higher. So, for those who are worried about the impact of over-population, if everyone emulated the model of white people, we wouldn't have a problem - population would be shrinking.

(s/ So maybe the dear doctor just wants to rid the world of all the smelly brown people /s).

Rudester: So all of the hyperbole is not about anyone you can point to now? So why link and compare those who would discuss limited resources and population growth as a source of problems in the world to those monsters of the past? Those conservatives who do not even want to discuss the issue, as demonstrated here, are quick to talk about Hitler, Stalin, eugenics, but it seems to me to be all a lot of hot air intended to avoid discussing the problem.

No one - no one - is suggesting culling humans to address the problem of resources, but your reliance on a disgusting strawman is pretty revealing.

Ted
Cerberus

Ted,

All numbers I've seen show that Canada and most of the developed world are in population decline, not expansion, due to below-replacement birth rates. The US I think may be an exception in that they are close to the 2.1 replacement rate, but still are slightly below. With the UNFPA working hard to bring sub-replacement birth rates to the developing world, I fail to see how population growth is an issue.

Indications I've seen point towards problems with aging populations and our inability to cope with the imbalance we've created. It would seem we are more likely to experience problems related to a population implosion, not a population explosion.

Another point about biologists: many spend a lot of time in the field, so that their survival skills are much more developed than those of the typical office worker. For that reason, if 90% of us were to perish in some environmental catastrophe, I would expect biologists to be disproportionalely numerous among the survivors.

maybe its time for the NDP to go back to their roots and re-adopt one of their founding party policies . . Eugenics.

Its their way to pre-solve the population "problem"

Castro seems to think it works. . . maybe the ghost of Tommy Douglas will finally find peace.

Hey Denis, thanks for trying to discuss the issue. You seem a bit unique around here today.

I don't think you can simply off-set population decline in a few western countries with the population growth in non-western countries. We are too much of a minority. Plus, the issue isn't just population numbers but available resources.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big "over-population problem" guy, but I do think resources, the distribution of resources and the spread (not just the number but the physical displacement of nature for human habitat) are definitely concerns to keep an eye on. Discussing them is important. I don't believe we are imminiently (i.e. 50 years) facing monumental natural catastrophe (I'll admit it, we progressives tend to find monumental natural catastrophes pretty regularly and almost as often as conservatives find signs of the imminent apocalypse and return of the Son of God!), but I also don't think we can just ignore it and trust that someone somewhere sometime will come up with a magic plan.

Ted
Cerberus

"Without presenting any data to justify this number, he asserted that the only feasible SOLUTION to saving the Earth is to reduce the population to 10 percent of the present number. . . .

"His favorite candidate for eliminating 90 percent of the world's population is airborne Ebola (Ebola Reston), because it is both highly lethal and it kills in days, instead of years. . . . ."

Ted, sounds like releasing airborne ebola as a solution to the problem is culling to me.

I've read the whole article. If you read the end, even Mims unintentionally concedes that part was a minor part of the talk which leads me to believe he is deliberately misconstruing it and that it was said in the vein of "if we don't do anything, the only way we could survive is if billions die" line of thinking. As I said above: In reading Forrest Mims (sorry,
Forrest M. Mims "the IIId") account, Mims seems to be stretching the truth and doing a heck of a lot of editorializing. When you strip away the opinionizing, it seems more that Pianka is giving dire warning of what he believes (and most do not) to be a monumental problem in the world; it does not seem like he is actually advocating the killing of billions. The same old scaremongering to produce change we've seen from left and right, but not advocating of genocide.

As I also said above: Agree or disagree on the issue of over-population being a problem, and whether Pianka and other scientists are nuts for supporting the idea, but clearly Mims disagrees with over-population as an issue and, instead of debating or even attacking the message, he heaps on the hyperbolic misconstruing and attacking of the messenger.

The problem is that the underlying issue of scarce resources gets lost in the polarized and politicized positioning of the Piankas and Mims of the scientific, political and religious worlds.

Ted
Cerberus

The good Dr. is like all the rest of the anti-development crowd. They've gotten their piece of the action and now wish to deny others, for fear that it will impinge on their own quality of life. We've had many hundreds of people move to our beautiful city on Vancouver Island and as often as not, they are the very ones who whine and complain about others while purporting to 'fight for the quality of life' they recently bought into. Hypocrites.

I'd be interested too, in how many of those who vigourously applauded the Professor, object to the culling of 5% of the seal herd this year. Oops, almost forgot. It's ok to cull people, but not cute, fluffy, innocent animals.

Ted - google the cull subject...and recognize the valid use of hyperbole in argument. This is not a disgusting straw man argument. It is wingnuts like Pianka that make the moral equivalence ("We're no better than bacteria."), so in context cull is appropriate. It is logically consistent to assert that such people would not weep over the sudden and painful death of 90% of the human population. See, eg. http://mindprod.com/environment/population.html
...scroll down to "We should foment wars to help kill off the young men.
We should not intervene when crazed dictators such as Hitler, Idi Amin and Pol Pot decimate their populations. "

Most such people advocate a "voluntary cull" - check out Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (VHEMT) http://www.vhemt.org/...they lack the courage of their convictions.

The issues of over-population (sic) and resource use are the straw men in the discussion. I note that everyone has fallen for it. Sigh: I predict an upsurge in NDP votes...brain rot has hit sda commentators...what must it be like elsewhere?

Hi Ted,

I don't know that it is accurate to say a "few western countries" are experiencing decline. It is happening in: North America, Eastern & Western Europe, most of East Asia, Australia and New Zealand - actually according to the UNFPA there are already 43 developed countries with below replacement fertility rates, 15 with rates below 1.3. It is true the developing world is still having kids above the replacement rate, but the UNFPA expects the average rate to decline to 1.92 by the middle of this century. It also says there are already 23 developing countries that have reached below-replacement birth rates.

If over-population ever were a real danger (and I don't think we were ever in harms way), it would seem that the problem is well in hand.

However, for all the attention that over-population seems to get, I really believe that we will actually suffer from the population aging and population decline that is starting to happen now. I guess time will tell.

Education, and innovation is the key to over population, and resource depletion. Western countries with a high standard of education have a lower birth rate. The education of people will lead to innovation, that will lead to better resource management. The Lizard Doc thinks he is a god. He thinks he, or someone has the right to cull 90% of the human population. If we don’t manage our world in a responsible way, it will take care of us. It is up to the earth, mother nature, God etc. to decide our fate. Not some guy. The earth will be here long after humans are gone. The earth will be just fine. It is arrogant to believe otherwise.

One parting shot before the day's end:

What do you suppose Pianka's views on capital punishment are?

Any guesses?

I'm going to have to chime in with Ted here.

The man never said what's attributed to him. Over- or under-population, whatever - the point is, the "reporter" is lying about what was said.

I think Canada needs MORE, not less, people. But while I don't believe we're over-populated, I still recognize the need for truth in reporting. And the above is total horseshit, and shouldn't be defended.

'Tis being reported as an opinion the good prof (sic) holds, and one that he does, in some measure, advocate. See

http://www.seguingazette.com/

I read the post above, wrong again Ted & Jason D.

Ted -

Even some of Piankas students are backing up Forest Mims' statements.

I know you don't want to believe it, but there appears to be plenty of evidence that Piankas is advocating a 90% population cull, and that he had suggested ebola as the tool.

here are two students' statements:
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I don't root for ebola, but maybe a ban on having more than one child. I agree . . . too many people ruining this planet.

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Though I agree that convervation biology is of utmost importance to the world, I do not think that preaching that 90% of the human population should die of ebola is the most effective means of encouraging conservation awareness. I found Pianka to be knowledgable, but spent too much time focusing on his specific research and personal views.
------------------------------------------

You can find them here http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/bio357/357evaluations.html

Thumbs down on Dr. Eric R. Pianka's views about culling the human population of Planet Earth. Bad politics and bad theology--not to mention inhumane and evil.

By the looks of it, there will be no need for a "human solution" (sic) and (sick) by a third party like Dr. Pianka and his ghoulish cohorts: We're well on our way to global extinction on our own.

In Andrew Nikiforuk's book "The Fourth Horseman: A Short History of Plagues, Scourges and Emerging Viruses," (Penguin, 1992, 1996), he says, "Humankind has now arrived at a spooky crossroads. Death from disease, death on an ever greater scale, is probably inevitable. Our mirage of sustainable health has evaporated in the post-antibiotic era. Neither our bodies nor our communities are particularly well. Our lands ooze suppurating ulcers; our waters smell of foul things. God and Creation have been defiled and humiliated. Death's handmaiden, disease, couldn't have hoped for a more inviting terrain than this unbalanced and wounded world. ... The next great plague will not wipe the slate clean but may very well reduce our arrogant numbers to a humble remnant. Once summoned, the Fourth Horseman cannot and will not rest."

And I looked, and behold, a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
-- Revelation 6:8

Here follows part of a news item that I just read today:

Three Killed in Istanbul Bus Attack
02 April, 2006

By BENJAMIN HARVEY

ISTANBUL, Turkey - A group of men stopped a passenger bus and tossed gasoline bombs at it, sending the vehicle careening into pedestrians and killing three in Turkey‘s largest city on Sunday as pro-Kurdish riots continued to spread.

Sorry Kate: please delete my last comment if you can.
I posted by accident to the wrong thread.

Hey look, CERDIP/Wayne/others, New Kid on the Block (7:11PM) and Andrew Nikiforuk (who he quotes) are also advocating virus driven genocide. You can just read the glee and merry excitement at the prospect of the extinction of the human race.

"Death's handmaiden, disease, couldn't have hoped for a more inviting terrain than this unbalanced and wounded world. ... The next great plague will not wipe the slate clean but may very well reduce our arrogant numbers to a humble remnant."

See? He is "hoping" for this genocide, "inviting" it. They even call the plague "great".

*********

You would think that after the last election from all the complaining by conservatives, you would all be a little more sensitive to quoting out of context.

G'night.

Ted
Cerberus

Interesting topic. Aside from the evil repercussions that can follow these lines of thinking, I think this academic really isn't that learned. Chaos theory would surely effect the outcome of someone meddling with one of the most complex systems on earth...humanity. Like the effects of exploding breakouts of diseases after vaccine programs or the effects of devastating poverty after social economic experiments...complex systems have a way of boomeranging and producing the opposite intent. Hitler had a large roll in founding Israel by his attempts at genocide.
Let's not take thing for granted through. Socialism may be an outcome of chaos theory as well. Attempts to completely erradicate it may spell the end of relatively free market economies. Perhaps we should tolerate it like we tolerate bugs and skunks :-)

Interesting topic. Aside from the evil repercussions that can follow these lines of thinking, I think this academic really isn't that learned. Chaos theory would surely effect the outcome of someone meddling with one of the most complex systems on earth...humanity. Like the effects of exploding breakouts of diseases after vaccine programs or the effects of devastating poverty after social economic experiments...complex systems have a way of boomeranging and producing the opposite intent. Hitler had a large roll in founding Israel by his attempts at genocide.
Let's not take thing for granted through. Socialism may be an outcome of chaos theory as well. Attempts to completely erradicate it may spell the end of relatively free market economies. Perhaps we should tolerate it like we tolerate bugs and skunks :-)

Ted -

No. You are wrong. He wants to cull the population of the earth by 90%.

Forest Mims is not the only person to have reported Piankas' statements. COmplaints were filed as well:

"Joining the crusade, James Pitts, who recieved a Ph.D. in physics from UT-Austin, became the second to publicly chastise Pianka when he filed a complaint Saturday with the UT board of regents. He insists a state university is no place to disseminate such views.

He writes:

"Pianka's message does not fall within the realm of his professional competence as a biologist, because it is a normative claim, not a descriptive one. Pianka is encouraged to use his ecological expertise to predict the likely consequences of certain technological and reproductive strategies, but to evaluate some as good, bad, or worthy of prevention by genocide is the realm of philosophy or political science, not science. His message falls no more within his professional competence than it would for a physicist to teach religion in class or a musician to encourage racism."

(emphasis mine)

We were given plenty of context by Forest Mims' account, and Piankas' students statements, and that context is supported by all of the evidence, including the above complaint.

sorry - forgot the link for the complaint against Piankas:

http://story.seguingazette.com/drudge.html

The concept of "over-population" by definition would suggest the concept of "under-population" and "optimum-population" are also possible as well. The really interesting part comes when you try to define what these levels are.

If - as Peter D -11:37 AM claims “ there are too many of us and we use too many resources. The Earth’s carrying capacity is being stretched and our pop. is continuing to sky-rocket”
Then - why are commodity prices continuing to fall. Why are world food prices not rising. etc.

Recommended reading: Fraser Institute - Exploding Population Myths - by Jim Peron http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/critical_issues/1995/exploding/

Robin Banks: well obviously if "too many people" is the problem, then the act of having children directly increases the severity of that problem, and therefore those who believe that 90% of humanity should die ought to start with their own contributions to the problem.

----------------------

Nothing new since 1950? Dr. Norman Borlaug, probably the greatest hero the world has ever known, would likely disagree. He developed dwarf wheat, which saved the lives of a billion people. His technology trumped "overpopulation".

----------------------

Ted/Cerberus, I've seen you using the scare quotes around Forrest Mims' name (i.e.: sorry,
Forrest M. Mims "the IIId"). Why? That is his name. It isn't his fault that his father and grandfather share the same name and that he must add III after it to differentiate himself from them. And BTW, the name is well-known to anyone who has done any electronics in the last 30 years; Forrest Mims III wrote the most clear, concise electronics project books available. Every Radio Shack carries several books by Mims.

Ted: You wrote:

"Hey look, CERDIP/Wayne/others, New Kid on the Block (7:11PM) and Andrew Nikiforuk (who he quotes) are also advocating virus driven genocide. You can just read the glee and merry excitement at the prospect of the extinction of the human race."

No way! Nikiforuk is NOT ADVOCATING virus-driven genocide. He's saying in his book that our era is so badly out of joint--we've turned so many things upside down with promiscuous sex, misusing antibiotics, contaminating our environment, etc., etc., that NATURE ITSELF is soon going to redress a lot of this human-made carnage--and that, over the centuries, it always has. Nikiforuk documents the history of epidemics and plagues and demonstrates the indicators of pending epidemics and plagues. It's not that he or anyone--least of all me--is gleeful or excited about these things happening (I have a husband and two beautiful daughters whose infection by a deadly virus would devastate me), but I don't believe in head-in-the-sand stances when all the physical and social indicators point to our self-inflicted destruction. (Listen to some of Bob Dylan's stuff...)

READ THE BOOK. It is fascinating and scary. What he's saying is not that anyone should deliberately get rid of human beings by means of viruses but that human beings are going to be the authors of their own demise--because Nature will not be meddled with. When we start to "play God" Nature says, "OK, you guys. That's enough. If you won't fix things or turn them around, I will." Or words to that effect. God knows, we don't need a Pianka on top of what we're already facing.

Unfortunatley, you completely misread my message and suggested that I had said THE OPPOSITE of what I actually said. :-(

'Brenna' was one of those enthralled by Pianka's ideas. She says so on her blog here:

http://brenmccnnll.blogspot.com/2006/03/dr.html

A partial quote: "He's a radical thinker, that one! I mean, he's basically advocating for the death of all but 10% of the current population! And at the risk of sounding just as radical, I think he's right."

Note the well-deserved reaction she gets in some 100+ comments.

Human nature and Mother Nature will take care of our population problems. We might be the big fish in the pond.... but it is still Mother Nature's pond! Leave children (future & present) out of it, they didn't create the mess, WE did.THEY have to deal with it.
Think airborn Ebola can't happen? Wasn't there a book with that plot? A few well timed releases in busy airpory lounges, in a few busy locations... Voila! Just the same, one of those dark meteors can hit us at any time with little warning, as we've already had a few close calls in last few decades. Human nature.... and Mother Nature.

Wow!

Has this guy been reading the book of Revelations or what? Apocolypse here we come.

Ryan, "this guy" (whoever it is you are referring to) has actually been reading history, the history of plagues and epidemics. We shouldn't be so self-centred and myopic as to think that we are the only human beings who've been threatened and/or laid low by them. They come and go in cycles--and by the looks of it, it's our turn again pretty soon. It just so happens that The Book of Revelation (no "s") has prophetically pointed out to us--if we will be humble enough to listen--what's coming. 'Nothing bizarre or sinister about it: JUST THE TRUTH.

This would never happen here in Toronto. I mean. even if you killed 90% of the lefties here, there would be enough of them left over to make sure that burial would be out of the question - would wreck all the 'green space' and of course incineration of anything from leaves to garbage to, I suppose, people would be strictly verbotten.

It's scary that so many of his colleagues would stand up to applaud him. I would not be surprised in the least if Pianka was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Hi Everyone!
I think Saskatchewan's NDP party may have the solution to the population crisis! I found this on the 650 CKoM Saskatoon radio site:

"Sask Population Loss Should be Emergency - March 29 2006
posted March 29th, 2006
As Saskatchewan's population plummets yet again, we are now home to 990, 970 souls. In the mid 1980s we had more than a million 30 thousand. The last time our population was at THIS low it was the fall of 1982. Even if you can't get your head around the second strongest economy in Canada still having people voting with their feet (which is absolutely unacceptable) consider history. 1970s Premier Allen Blakney left office with 50 thousand more people than he started with; 1980s Premier Grant Devine had nearly 20 thousand more; 1990s Premier Roy Romanow left office with nearly 4 thousand more people. Since taking office in January 2001 Premier Calvert and company have LOST 13 thousand people."

I know 13 thousand isn't that many, but every little bit would help!

Yes I am trying to lighten the mood.
:)

J.B.: With all due respect, isn't it just like the Canadian psyche to shy away from anything unpleasant?

We're unwisely doing ourselves in by indulging our own decadent appetites: overeating, having sex with whomever whenever we want, polluting the planet, overmedicating ourselves, etc., but you're suggesting that we need to lighten up. No wonder our kids are the "whatever" generation.

In a nutshell, we're fiddling while Rome/Toronto burns. The Fourth Horseman is galloping up behind us, and we'll be the first ones to ask "How did this happen? It's not fair."

O Canada.

I hate to break it to you guys but you've fallen for an April Fools joke.

Correction, it appears not to be a joke but a fabrication by a creationist nutball. It's disturbing how readily and uncriticaly people swallow this garbage.

http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/04/forrest_mims_cr.html

What garbage are you referring to, Jose? Your uninformed opinion?

Read Andrew Nikforuk's book. It has nothing to do with creationist theory; it's about the microbes and bacteria that are all around us and which if unleashed--meaning if we can't keep them in check, and we increasingly can't (ask any epidemiologist)--will cause another plague.

If you can't take the heat, Jose, stay out of the kitchen, por favor.

It's a hoax. The professor in question never said the things that he was reported to have said. It's the work of a creationist nutball who is either pulling an April's fool or has a serious axe to grind.

http://www.kxan.com/Global/story.asp?S=4720390

Apparently Pianka has said, "If we don't control our population, microbes will. Why do we have these lethal microbes that kill us in the first place? The answer is, there's too many of us."

So, his saying that Earth's population needs, in his estimation, to be controlled isn't exactly a hoax. He's said it. Maybe he hasn't advocated 90% of us being exterminated, but he does think we need to "control our population." How exactly? We've already got abortion on demand and active euthanasia...what's next?

Where does the idea come from that a "creationist" rival of his is spreading this rumour?

Those were the Bio 357 course evaluations, not Bio 304.