Actually, if the Democratic Plan involves tightening up the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and going after the training camps inside Pakistan that keep producing the endless stream of Jihadis that pour over the border to take shots at our guys around Kandahar, then they're being pretty smart.

Otherwise,our mission is like mopping up after a leaky sink without bothering to turn off the faucet.

Norris is just saying something publicly that most politicians and all Albertans have held as viable policy for years. Alberta has a tough row to hoe ahead of it to keep its well deserved (debt free) revenues in a confederation populated with degnerate socialist greed. Alberta must keep the bulk of it's revenues in the province to provide long term sustainability startegies....reather than have it stolen to suppliment fiscally promiscuous socialist regimes in the eastern provinces.

Alberta's politicians must accept some form of political and jurisdictional sovereignty as a contingency to failed confederal negotiation with Ottawa.

Norris is talking treason. Stephen Harper should denounce him for it.

Remember Syncrude and the subsidies to the oil industry in the 60s and 70s. Albertans were the Newfies of the Prairie. As soon as they got a little cash, they got uppity.

No, actually bigcitylib is talking though his anal shincter because his head is permanently lodged in a dark moist and smelly place where beercan patriotism is manufactured.

Read the clarity act dolt.

My goodness, Wylon, looks like you used every dirty word you know in that message!

So riddle me this: if Lucian Bouchard was a traiter to advocate Quebec seperatism (and I think he was), then why isn't Mark Norris?

I just emote the level of civility due to some one who is reponsible for the most vacant and stupid post I have ever seen on this site. By the way Lib, perhaps you will be qualified to comment on western political history and confederal politics after you experience that cathartic "pop" when your cranium finaly is dislodged from its current dark and smelly locale.

Only rectal-cranial dysplasia can explain the complete void of reality you spew concerning westen political issues.

So despite being a Supreme Court Justice, Scalia is falsely maligned because he's Catholic and an Italian-American? Sweet sucks!

Dear Wylon, got your thesaurus out for that one did you? Actually, I've lived all over this great land of ours, and Western politics are the least of our mysteries. But you didn't answer my question: why isn't Western Seperatism Treason if Quebec seperatism is?

BCL - you sure like it over here, huh - sure you aren't a closet conservative??

The thing about Alberta is that our Canadian values of hard work, entepreniural spirit and conservatism has taken a province that was in debt and made it debt free. Because our government encourages business to succeed and because we didn't sign away our resource rights for welfare payments from Ottawa, this has allowed anyone to succeed in this province through hard work.

I would assume BCL that you don't live in the big cities of Edmonton or Calgary otherwise you would know this. So that means that you live in a big city in one of the other provinces that believe that the government should pay for everything and that no one has to take any responsibility for themselves because the government will take care of you - just send us your taxes and we will pay for everything. Big business is the bad guy and unions control the government. How well has that worked out for the rest of Canada.

Hopefully we will see the new federal government allow provinces, if they want, to gain control over their own resources, take responsibility for their provinces and allow their own people to succeed if they want to. This is the Canadian spirit.

Now you might think that Alberta is successful because of oil - you are right but it is how that resource has been allowed to be exploited that is our success. The oil doesn't stop at the Alberta borders. This country is a wash in natural resources - what it isn't awash in is governments that see themselves as the saviours of the people and not the people as the saviours of the government.

To say Mark Norris is talking treason - BCL you have no idea how the separtist agenda simmers below the surface in Alberta. We have built this province through the hard work of Albertans and we will stand up against anyone trying to say that our hard work should now pay for those who decided that letting the government take care of them was the way to go. Stand up for yourself BCL - take some responsibility for how your province and your city has chosen to build themselves.

Great logic on why a U2 could not be used in provocation!

It (and its colour) would indeed be invisible at its operating altitude. But what if it deliberately flies lower? Without wishing to impinge on military secrets, it must have that capability, since it does take off and land at ground level.

Could we have the next bit of specious logic in defence of whatever, please.

How about a few pictures of the Harley? Before and after if possible.

Al-Quaeda has found a new home in Iraq whether the US stay there for six months or sixty years. The only thing keeping them out was Hussien, Mr.Paranoia.
Unless the US replaces Saddam with another despot Al-Queda will continue to operate inside Iraq. You see they have found people they can work with be they Sunni or Shia. There must be thousands of anti-Americans who would(are) turning a blind eye to their activities. So don't kid yourself that the length of stay of American troops does anything but create more hostility towards America.

The following is an excerpt of what one soldier now returned home had to say about what is going on in Iraq;

What kind of abuses did he witness? "Well, I mean, I have seen innocent people being killed. IEDs go off and [you] just zap any farmer that is close to you. You know, those people were out there trying to make a living, but on the other hand, you get hit by four or five of those IEDs and you get pretty tired of that, too."

Casey told us how, from the top down, there was little regard for the Iraqis, who were routinely called "hajjis", the Iraq equivalent of "gook". "They basically jam into your head: 'This is hajji! This is hajji!' You totally take the human being out of it and make them into a video game."

It was a way of dehumanising the Iraqis? "I mean, yeah - if you start looking at them as humans, and stuff like that, then how are you going to kill them?"

This is what goes on in all wars. War is dehumanizing. Are the American Troops creating terrorists? I think so.

Alberta Girl,

Your arguments sound exactly like the ones the Parti Quebecois makes when they talk about splitting the nation! You've got so many grievances that if only the ROC would get off your case the world would be wonderful! You whine like a Quebecker, in other words.

I don't know what Alberta would do if it seperated in the first place. Probably get absorbed into the U.S. It isn't like B.C. would go along with you, or Sask. or Manitoba.

And, dear lady, Calgary can never be a world class city until you get streets that run both ways!

on the issue of separitism...one should check out today's posts on both "Nealenews" and "Bourque Newswatch" (make sure you return to SDA...don't mean to send your loyal troops on a mission, Kate) re: "Charest Blasts 'Scandalous' Sovereignty Schoolbook"...I'm interested in knowing if it is possible to both defend one's home turf and an attack on one's extended family (ie. the country)?

Plse put away your pistols...meant for discussion purposes only!!

Alberta Girl sez:

"The thing about Alberta is that our Canadian values of hard work, entepreniural spirit and conservatism has taken a province that was in debt and made it debt free."

...that, and of course having the DUMB LUCK to just happen to be sitting on top of massive oil reserves. It always cracks me up when smug types sitting in a position of privilege beak on and on about "hard work" and the "entreprenerial spirit" as if those things alone are what got them there. More often than not there are other factors involved in addition to the aforementioned.

Without the oil Alberta would be a nothing more than a redneck backwater, and its citizens "the Newfies of the Prairie" as and earlier poster stated, and that's a fact.

Alberta Girl writes: "The thing about Alberta is that our Canadian values of hard work, entepreniural spirit and conservatism has taken a province that was in debt and made it debt free"

Excuse me, but I - a Conservative supporter, by the way - am sick to death of this crock of fecal matter trotted out by Albertans on a regular basis. Here's the truth: ALBERTA IS LUCKY IT'S SITTING ON A HUGE POOL OF OIL THAT A BUNCH OF ARABS RAISED THE PRICE OF 35 YEARS AGO. Now, I don't begrudge Alberta either the oil, or the money that it has brought to the province, and I don't think that the rest of Canada has some right to help itself to the oil revenue because our constitution says mineral rights belong to the provinces. But I'm tired beyond belief of a bunch of self-righteous blowhards pretending that Alberta's prosperity is due to some innate qualities that they have that the rest of Canada lacks. It isn't, and there's nothing special about Albertans compared to other Canadians.

If Albertans want to rejoice in their good fortune, that's fine. But keep the snotty superior attitude to yourself; you haven't earned it.

BCL - WHOAAAAA - I don't live in Calgary, but your saying they will never be a world class city will most certainly piss of Calgarians.

I take it from your attitude that you live in the centre of the universe - Toronto.

The difference between Alberta and Quebec separatism is that Alberta can afford to separate.

Now - before you think that that is what I want - it is not and it isn't what the majority of Albertans truly want - BUT the sentiment simmers below the surface due to attitudes like yours that sees this province - one of the most successful in the country - looked down upon by almost every other province. Why is that BCL? Envy?, Fright?,

I predict that Alberta will not separate and the separatist agenda will die - my reasoning is that the new federal government will allow all provinces in Canada to have the same opportunities as Alberta and other provinces will no longer have to look to Alberta's wealth as something to covet - they will be able to create their own wealth. The question I ask you BCL - Are you willing to allow your province to acheive the same things as Alberta has acheived. It is truly your choice!

Winnipeg Free Press changes their version of the shooting of Matthew Dumas -but neglects to attribute *a certain blog* for digging up the facts - last year.

http://blackrod.blogspot.com/2006/03/free-press-scalps-black-rod-for-true.html

Dear Garry P, Charest has the right idea and is taking a stand that may actually cost him something in Quebec.

Do any Western politicians have the balls to slap their own seperatists, is what I want to know. Starting with Stephen Harper. He is supposed to represent the whole country now, after all.

What espcially burns me about Norris and Morten is how trivial their complaints are. Norris has basically stated that if Ottawa were to institute a carbon tax to save the Inuit and keep the Arctic from melting, Alberta would be gone, gone, gone...

I find that sickening.

Wow - I sure got slammed for standing up for my province.

The thing that Mr. Lahey and KevinB missed in my posts was that Alberta has become Alberta in spite of oil. Alberta was in debt in 1992 and Ralph Klein took a stand, made cuts that started this province on the way to debt free status. The governments of Alberta have used the oil under our ground through encouraging business to help build this province.

So my question for these two posters is - do you really think the oil stops at the Alberta borders?

Yes we have oil and yes the price is high = BUT so do alot of other provinces have oil, why have they not exploited it as Alberta has done. Canada is rich in natural resources, how each province chooses to use those natural resources and how they choose to run their governments is the difference between Alberta and the other provinces.

I am not being smug - believe me - that is the furtherest thing from my mind - I do no in any way think that Alberta is BETTER than any other province, I do think, however, we have run our province better than any other and the results, I think speak for themselves.

What I (and many other Albertans) get frustrated with is those who think that it is only because of oil that we are where we are today. Albertans have endured cuts to social programs, we have the same health care woes as other provinces and we pay out of pocket for health care premiums, school fees, eye and dental care and numerous other benefits that other provinces cover. And we have the usual socialist agenda here that cries about how the cuts have hurt this province - yet the influx of immigrants says otherwise.

So before you SLAM me and other Albertans - do a little research and actually learn what has happened in this province to make it what it is today!!

BCL is getting to be one well-fed troll.

Kevin - I think he likes it!

Alberta girl

You like to see your province as like all the others but I think not.
They had 6 billion left over after paying all provincial bills. This is without any provincial sales tax. So tell me again how your province is just like every other.
There is off shore oil in the eastern maritime provinces but unless you know something I don't there is none anywhere else. I think at $60 a barrel we'd be digging out with our bare hands if there was.

Steved - one question - do you think the oil stops at the Alberta border - bang - just stops dead at the border? Think logically about it??

bigcitylib:..."Charest has the right idea and is taking a stand that actually may cost him something in Quebec"...

what I find sickening is the way Canada has been manipulated by the politics of the "Two Solitudes" syndrome...I, for one, have had enough. To even have such a book being published for school children is atrocious. I don't think they'll ever separate because they wouldn't survive without the Cdn $'s. Once the land claims commission took away the hydro-electric $'s and Canada/US defended the St. Lawrence Seaway for international trade purposes,...sorry, I digressed...

As Alberta Girl is saying (the woman doesn't need me to speak for her!...doing well enough) the under current is there but I believe it results from the politicizing of the Quebec issue. We are being used against ourselves and don't want to admit it.

I would add one other log to the fire...why was Lapierre accepted into the lpc ranks, having been and remaining a separatist, as Martin's Quebec Lt.? The question is retorical in nature. In my view, it is 'Bouchard all over again', but with a different coloured tie! Should he be tried for treason as well? (not retorical).

My opinion remains that, until we (all Canadians) can be and are: 1/ knowledgeable of who we really are 2/ are able to understand the realities of and to respond to our manipulators, we are doomed to continue to be divided and conquered.

The answer?...please fire away!

The fact BCL is consistently both ignorant and arrogant just goes to prove he is indeed a Lib.His complete lack of knowledge about how the average Albertan feels about Canada is also proof.Actually,all libs are in denial on this.

The fact is,current feelings of separation were caused by the LIB PARTY and their utter contempt for Albertans.Try years of being slurred by Eastern politicians while the population,instead of being outraged,quietly giggled.Did the MSM come to their defense....NO...but just try and slander Quebec or the Maritimes,the wrath of the MSM will be at your door.

When you feel you are being shit on by the power brokers of eastern politics,it is hard not to feel"unwanted"in your own country.Let's see,red-neck,racists,UNCANADIAN!All these vile terms have repeatedly been used against Albertans by the lib party ONLY because they were the bedrock of the conservative movement in Canada.

So,you tell me who the real traitors are here.Well,if you are too fuckin' stupid to figure it out,it is the LIBS!The party that consistently put it's own SELFISH AGENDA ahead of the COUNTRY!

Alberta Girl: "Yes we have oil and yes the price is high = BUT so do alot of other provinces have oil, why have they not exploited it as Alberta has done. "

Well, according to StatsCan, the four jurisdictions with the highest ratio of oil to GDP are Newfoundland, Alberta, Saskatchewan and the NWT. In Alberta, oil produces about 1 dollar in 5 of GDP; in Ontario, it's about 1 dollar in 33. Alberta expects to get about $7 BILLION dollars in oil and gas royalties this year; Ontario expects to get $10 MILLION. That works out to less than $1 per Ontarian per year, and over $1750 per Albertan per year. And let's not pretend there are huge pools of oil sitting under Sudbury that lazy overfed Ontarians are letting sit undeveloped.

Ontario's deficit last year was about $300 per capita; if we had $1750 per person in extra revenue, we wouldn't have a deficit either or a debt problem. So, I repeat my point: good for you that you have the oil, but let's not pretend Alberta's current economic position has anything to do with the quality of its people vis a vis the rest of Canada.

And let's not forget that only 70 years ago, Alberta became the first and only province to default on its debt. If Alberta is so full of hard working entrepeneurs, how did that happen?
Obviously, there were (and are) bigger factors at play, but this constant refrain - not just from you, A-Girl, but from lots of your fellow Albertans - about the sterling quality of your folk rings pretty hollow.

Shock waves from the new Harper Conservative government: kick out illegal immigrants.

Support this. Legal immigration must prevail.

To the Prime Minister's Office (BTW,they do read blogs): We support you. Carry on.

Legal immigration must prevail. Defend our borders. +

Thousands are sent back to Portugal
The Euro weekly News ^ | March 30 2006 | Unknown

Posted on 03/30/2006 7:56:18 AM PST by aCDNinUSA

Thousands are sent back to Portugal

BETWEEN 15,000 and 22,000 Portuguese illegal immigrants could be deported from Canada. An unprecedented operation has started to expatriate all the illegal immigrants working in the country.

In February, the Ambassador to the country, João Silveira de Carvalho, received an official communication from the Immigration Ministry saying that all Portuguese working in Canada without a permit would be ordered to return immediately to their country.

The first Portuguese families have been put on aeroplanes and forced to leave. Some of the families had been living in Canada for several years and many had already bought houses there. They were given only a few days’ notice to make preparations, pack their bags, and get rid of possessions they couldn't take on the flight to Lisbon. A large number of the group being deported went to Canada to meet the demands of a booming construction industry, particularly in Toronto. Estimates state that about 75 per cent of the workers are in the country illegally. + more
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1606149/posts

Re: Democrats Finally Agree On National-Security Message: Invade Pakistan

Sounds like a plan crafted young but ambitious PR firm.
Then they presented it to a few focus groups, living on blue islands in the red states.

The Dems like the Libranos believe in nothing but returning to power.
Their "New and Improved" product is still losing market share

Bigcityfib,
What is to say that BC wouldnt go along with Alberta. Think of the balance of power. BC has no love for Ontario and Ontario would be even more in the drivers seat. Dangerously so. Alberta leaves and Canada is over.
You seriously underestimate the antipathy that much of Canada has for Ontario. Ontario has ruled the roost. Those days are over. Deal with it.
enough

KevinB - You missed my point entirely - I am not saying that it is because of the people in Alberta working harder than anyone else in Canada - Hell - I don't know a harder working people than the Newfies. I am not saying it is because of oil.

I am directly attributing Alberta's wealth and success to the fact that we have elected governments that have encouraged their population to be successful, have encouraged business to invest in the province and have encouraged and supported the entepreniurial spirit.

Think about it KevinB - don't misread my statements that I somehow feel that Albertans are better, harder working, living off the oil boom. That is not the case at all, it is our government that has supported those traits and therefore has been part of the success.

I am saying that given the right government, any province can use their natural resources, hardworking people and entepreniural spirit to become successful.

Unfortunately, the socialist, leftist, elite that sees this as a bad thing and that government should instead pander to their social agendas.

If a government has the balls to stand up to the elitists, make the cuts and the people can see the long term benefit of this (and not vote them out because it hurts a little) any province can start to work towards becoming a have province.

Now, before you slam me for being simplistic, I realize this is a simplistic outlook, there are many more factors at play and not all provinces can achieve what Alberta has for a number of reasons; however it is also simplistic to say that Alberta is wealthy because we are sitting on oil and for Albertans to think otherwise is somehow "smugness" is simply wrong!

Time for that nice map of the oil fields of Alberta. Interesting how these fields STOP right at the Saskatchewan border.

This shows that the statements about GDP from oil is a crock. Saskatchewan has the oil but has a bad business environment for discovery, drilling and exploitation oil. BC has offshore oil that the federal govt will not allow drilling of.

And Kyoto has been shown to be ineffective and merely wealth transfer to developing nations.
enough

Enough - thank you - I was beginning to feel surrounded.

Alberta Girl:...I think others were watching too...I think spirited and informative debate, with civility, is what SDA/Kate stands for...today has been all of that...

Just read this and almost lost my lunch - apparently the 'Council of Canadians' do not think we should honor election results:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/03/30/1512617-cp.html

These clowns should be called the Council of Communists; or vice versa.

Enough,

I see very few signs of seperatist sentiments on the rise in B.C., other than maybe a few nutjobs up in the mountains that came over the border with the SoCreds a long, long time ago. on the other hand I do remember seeing alot of "Blue eyed sheik" t-shirts in the early 1980s. I think Albertans seriously over-estimate how many non-Albertans they could convince to make the leap with them should they go. Who wants to be absorbed by America?

Bigcitylib:

A small point, perhaps, but would you really mind not mispelling "separatist" so consistently?

As to the separatist sentiments in BC, there is a movement here, but it was considerably dampened by the fact that Harper was elected. Had the Liberals been returned to power in the last election, even after the sponsorship scandal, I truly believe the separatist movement here would have gained momentum.

Over time, BC has been screwed over by eastern Canada as much as Alberta has; we have both been treated as more or less colonies of Ontario and Quebec. And the appalling discrepancy in representation in both House of Commons and Senate seats here has been a source of continuing frustration.

I think that the main difference in the decibel level of debate re separatism in BC vs. Alberta is, frankly, not many of us really give a sh!t about Ontario...maybe it's the mountains...

I see that BCL is still here and obviously has chosen not to answer my questions to him in a previous post? Why?

I believe that Kate provides a forum for those who have differing views to debate in an effort to understand the thinking behind those views.

When you don't respond, it leaves one wondering, did you have to leave the house, did you decide enough is enough on this conservative blog and go back to your own blog, did you just choose not to answer (which would leave the question - why?)

I guess from your comment to Enough regarding BC that your big city must be Vancouver? One question answered?

Alberta Girl thinks I misread her comments.

Here's what you wrote, my dear:

"The thing about Alberta is that our Canadian values of hard work, entepreniural spirit and conservatism has taken a province that was in debt and made it debt free."

Your words state that it was the values of hard work, entrepeneurial spirit, and conservatism that made your province debt free, so don't accuse me of misreading them. And I say that's a load of horse manure. Alberta is out of debt because of oil, and only because of oil. Take away your oil revenues, and your province would have to have a sales tax, higher income taxes (and gee, wouldn't that stifle your wonderful entrepeneurial spirit?) and probably still be in debt.

And, not that I'm trying to slam Albertans, who are just as good as any other Canadians, but in the last twenty years, Ontario produced some pretty large companies from scratch, like Newbridge Networks, RIM, and Biovail, all of which are billion dollar companies, which is why I resent the condescending tone of Albertans who lecture us on entrepeneurialism. We get the concept just fine, thank you very much. You are free, of course, to respond with your list of home-grown billion dollar Albertan companies outside the oil industry.

Hey Alberta Girl, good job there. i've refrained from putting in my two cents in only because kevin, bigegolib and ols steve d will only listen to what they want to hear. i've also lived across canada and have noticed how generously ontarario, quebec and manitoba shared their hydro resource with the rest of the peasants. hell, quebec even screwed newfy and didn't even give them a kiss. also, contrairy to popular belief, the oil doesn't gush out of the ground every time we try to shoot a gopher. it takes a lot of money, sweat and some luck to get that black gold out of the earth.

BTW: the humanrights people despirately need some CDF.

No, Alberta girl, my Bigcity is Toronto. I have lived in Calgary, Vancouver, and Edmonton, and several other smaller cities. re Your other questions. Most Canadian provinces were faced with debt and deficit around the same time, and dealt with the same issues to the best of their ability. Ontario's Conservative government took a hard, Alberta-type line and failed pretty miserably in overcoming these problems. Most other governments succeeded.

As several others have pointed out, I doubt the Alberta model--stick a tube in the ground and watch the black gold flow--would really have been appropriate in other parts of the country.

Texas - thank you for the support.

KevinB, sweetie - Yes you are right I included our hard work and our enteprenurial spirit in with conservatism (meaning our government).

As I stated - it is because we have consistently voted for the conservative style of government - the bad with the good that has allowed - over time - the debt to be paid off and business to succeed.

I in no way am taking anything away from businesses that have succeeded in other parts of Canada but you were one of those who insinuated that Alberta would be nothing without oil. This is a fallacy that unfortunately the majority of Canadians have about Alberta. I am merely trying to give you some insight into some of the other possible reasons.

Now I am going out on a limb here because I will be the first to admit that I am not truly -knowledgeable about the political state in other provinces, however it seems to me that Mike Harris (conservative) made some cuts in Ontario that proved very unpopular (so were Alberta's); he got voted out of office and a Liberal got voted in - since then taxes have been raised and from what I hear you are on the way to becoming a have not province. Am I right - if not, please correct me.

Now I am only asking a question here - not making a statement so please take it as someone from another province trying to get a point of veiw from another Canadian.

What would have happened if Mike Harris had been relected and was still in power today in Ontario?

Harris was reelected, then resigned slightly before the next election. Eves took over and spent like a liberal. Ontario believed the election promises of Mcguinty and elected him. Whereupon he taxed and spent like a liberal.

Notice the 1.2 billion spent on transit in one shot. And mcquinty claims a deficit. A created deficit so he can go after Harper for more money. The usual tricks.

It still comes back to that map of oil fields. Amazing that oil stops at the border. Nothing to do with an ndp government and business climate.
enough

http://www.americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=4765

Good article on Canada cutting of funds to the Palestinian Authority.

If you want to compare the differences between conservatism and socialism you need look further than Alberta and Saskatchewan. It is correct in saying that a fluke of nature has resulted in Alberta being rich in oil, however the same thing can be said about Sask. (studies consistently show that Sask's oil and gas reserves are GREATER than Albertas-our area alone has over 1 billion barrels of untapped high end crude)Yet despite this booming resource , Sask. lost 4000 jobs over the past few years and Alberta has gained over 130,000 (the last statistics I have heard)As well, a mining company in our area is exploring the largest kimberlite deposit in the world and is already removing carats at twice the rate they need for a mine to be profitable. However, very few of us are confident that this economic opportunity will come to fruition because of the regressive tax and regulatory nature of our NDP government who seems to belive that it is better for all people to be poor than for most to be wealthy and some even rich. As a result, our booming economy still results in us being a have-not province with a significant out-migration of our young, ambitious and talented people. We can only hope that at the next election, our socialist regime will be thrown out and we can begin the 10-15 year road to recovery that we will need to rid ourselves of the mindset of the need for government dependancy.

Re: "It still comes back to that map of oil fields."

For those of you who haven't seen it, here is a copy: http://www.prairiecentre.com/pdf/cp_map.pdf

Texas - I don't hear what I want to hear; I seek out the truth. When you can refute with fact what I say, I will listen to you. Until then, I'm not really interested. BTW, you might look up "line loss", and try to figure out why it doesn't make financial sense to ship electricity 3,000 km from Niagara Falls to Calgary.

A-Girl: Wherever did I say "Alberta would be nothing without oil"? What I said was Alberta wouldn't be in its present happy circumstance without it. But by all means, don't take my word for it; the following was written by Keith Brownsey of Mount Royal College, which is in, of all places, Calgary.

"After Lougheed’s retirement in the fall of 1985, the new Progressive Conservative premier, Donald Getty faced a major crisis. Getty had to manage a very sudden and dramatic downturn in the price of oil and gas. Provincial revenues shrunk and Alberta faced a series of budget deficits as thousands of workers were dismissed. "

You do see the connection? Falling oil prices, falling provincial revenues, and budget deficits. Rising oil prices, rising revenues, and budget surpluses. All of it irrespective of the hard work, entrepeneuralism, and Conservative governments of the province.

Some clowns think I'm anti-Alberta (not you, of course). I'm not. I just don't think there's some magic pixie dust in the Wild Rose Country air that makes Albertans any more (or less) hard working, etc., than other Canadians.

As for Mike Harris - voted for him, liked him, and thought his policies were great. He had his faults, just as Ralph does, and he ran out of energy (personal, not oil!) towards the end. One of the things he did was cut Bob Rae's generous to a fault welfare program. The lefties were all moaning that this would make Ontario a "third world" province, etc.; what happened is most of the ex-welfare recipients got jobs. His successor, Ernie Eves, thought he (Eves) was really smart, and he played some silly financial games, including selling off a cash-cow toll highway for peanuts, so he could 'balance' the budget. Now we have Dalton (aka Dilletante) ((aka a plastic vibrating device I won't mention here out of respect for you)) McGuinty who lied to get elected, and in fact has made a career of breaking his campaign promises, so naturally the media here love him.

But I will defend his transit proposals. I live in the GTA, and I can tell you it is no exaggeration to say billions of dollars in productive time are lost sitting on our choked highways. Part of the problem is every little municipality around Toronto wants to have its own bus system (it makes the mayors feel big and important), and hardly any of them are integrated with each other in any meaningful way. At some point, some one has to knock the heads of these systems together, and get them to provide integrated ticketing and scheduling. I have travelled all over the world, and it's appalling to me that South Korea, for example, has a more modern, effective, and bigger subway than Toronto. And if you want to see loony left wing thinking at its best, read up on the Toronto transit commission (TTC). They have just gotten approval to rip up the heart of St. Clair Ave W., the thriving centre of Little Italy, to put in a dedicated street car lane that is estimated to save (at a cost of $32 million directly, and untold costs to the businesses on the street) two whole minutes off the travel time from Keele St to Yonge St. Big whoop - they could do better, cheaper, by just finding a way to synch the trolleys with the stop lights. But that would be too logical.

Feel free to ask for more details about things here in the centre of the universe; you can laugh about it in Calgary - I have to live with it!

smalltowncon:

There's another reason for the "lack of oil" in Saskatchewan...the government there spent $802 million to support 170 jobs at a small town pulp mill that's bleeding money...nothing left to support oil exploration.

Saskatchewan instead of waiting for the second coming of Tommy Douglas ,Should take a page out of Albertan history.

Find some Texans with money to burn, go in partnership with them.Invest than watch the money flow in. That's what we did. Instead of waiting for Mommy government to do it for us.

Forget about the Government. Did our Fathers & Mothers wait to tame the West for the government to do it?

Dig it out yourselves. You should be richer than us. What has waiting 40 years for the liberals to build your industry amounted too. Ask that question & you will begin to understand why we don't rely on the government in wild rose country.

Murky figure from sponsorship scandal dies
Mar. 30, 2006. 05:32 PM
CANADIAN PRESS +

Martin? Chretien? Gagliano? Brison? Luigi Alfredough? Carselli Librano$?

Hows about Maurice Strong? Murky Figure? +

http://www.paulding.net/bin/url.cgi/13237.31

Posted by wlyonmackenzie at March 30, 2006 09:23 AM: "to suppliment fiscally promiscuous socialist

regimes in the eastern provinces."

Given that there are no NDP/socialist govt's/regimes, nor have there

ever been, in the Western provinces, including

B.C., one wonders what WLYM is saying here.

Please elucidate.

AlbertaGirl:

So, basically put, what you're saying is that the reason why Lucien Bouchard was considered a traitor is because the province of quebec are fat lazy slobs who have no natural resources to sustain themselves? (I urge you to re-asses this and think it through REAL hard).

Most people who speak of seperating do not take into consideration the astronomical costs of doing so. You do not even take into consideration that even though the natural resource of Oil is very lucrative, it does not guarantee you a future. What happens in 20 years when the earth dries up of oil???

Thanks to those who corrected my perception of Ontario - unfortunately, we all have "perceptions" of other parts of Canada - mostly due to the media's portrayal of that region - with the internet and now blogs we really can "learn" the truth about each others areas.

KevinB - You raise some interesting points regarding the correlation between the price of oil and Alberta's prosperity and in a sense you are correct, however the point I guess I am trying to make is that because Alberta has consistently elected a Conservative government which by definition believes that responsibility falls to the individual unless that individual is in need of help.

I take some issue with your assertion that the price drop in the early 80's was the cause of Alberta's bust. Earlier - in the 70's Trudeau instituted wage and price controls which caused a tremendous downturn in Alberta's oil and gas industry, then came the dreaded NEP which was like a nail in the coffin of the oil industry. This was quickly followed by a general recession in the whole of North America. So I question that the drop in oil prices was solely to blame for the loss of thousands of jobs - it was more a result of liberal federal government interference over which Alberta had no control. This coupled with the recession which hit North America certainly did put Alberta in the red. Once the recession abated, the NEP and wage and price controls were removed and, yes, the price of oil started to rise; and Ralph Klien ran on a platform of cutting the fat which he did when he got elected.

We will probably agree to disagree on the whole Alberta oil prosperity debate. I still believe that it is the responsibility of the citizens of a country to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and look after themselves - they should not rely on governments to create "programs" to serve a small niche of people.

Now this is not to say that those that truly need help should not be helped. But, take daycare for example, a single mother should definitely receive subsidized or free daycare, a professional couple making $200,000 a year should not!. This is one example, there are many that the socialists in this country seem to feel that it is their right to expect the government to fill every need they have.

Thanks for the debate though - its been fun

Thought you'd like to know, not as if any of us should really be shocked.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060330/ethics_stronach_060330/20060330?hub=Canada

Duffy broke it on his 5pm thingy. Magna girl's floor-crossing not getting investigated by Shapiro.

A short story by CP, but a damn fascinating read.

Scarface - you said

"So, basically put, what you're saying is that the reason why Lucien Bouchard was considered a traitor is because the province of quebec are fat lazy slobs who have no natural resources to sustain themselves?

Boy you are really reading something into my posts - I have said several times that I do not in any way think that only Alberta has the ethic of hard work. I have tried to communicate that the governments we elect support and encourage hard work and the province has been successful because of it. I also said that had other provinces elected governments that supported and encouraged the use of their natural resources that perhaps they could have the same level of success. By success I mean wealth.

Quebec certainly has natural resources - hydro electricity, mining, forestry to name a few.

Here is the rub though, scarface - Alberta pays and pays dearly to the rest of Canada (and I am not saying that we shouldn't pay) but when billions of dollars of royalties are paid to Ottawa in equalization payments it is a little hard to take to hear others provinces say we should "share". Quebec is considered a have not province - why do they not have to "share" revenue from their resources?

Dear Kevin B,

Your history of Ontario under Mike Harris is alternative in the extreme. What happened was, confronted with a $10,000,000 per year deficit, Harris cut spending and taxes in a madcap fashion largely designed to cover up the fact that he was redistributing money from municipalities like Toronto and Ottawa and redistributing it to the Tory voting areas in the suburban rings around these municipalities. This strategy came to be known as "Cornpone Communism", where city money is taken and redistributed to the Conservative countryside. There were rumours at the time of government workers driving around to the farms up in New Market in pick-up trucks, shovelling city money onto the driveways of rural Tory voters.

And because the spending cuts were done so carelessly, they never saved any actual money, so the deficit reduction that occured in the middle of Harris' first term was entirely the result of the broader economic upturn.

The folly of the Tory's fiscal policies became clear in their second term, when the government slipped back into the red and the bad consequences of Tory cutbacks in, for example, the environmental arena (like Walkerton) came home to roost.

When Mike Harris saw it all going South he jumped ship back into the private sector, taking shelter in the arms of the very people he had sold off pieces of the province too.

I write of some of this at greater length on my blog.

Terrorist Cat

...and now a random fact about Jack Bauer

Alberta Girl -
Great posts. Not only was the NEP "like a nail in the coffin of the oil industry" but it took a great toll on Albertans in general, take a look at suicide, divorce & spousal abuse rates following the implementation of the NEP. The Leftists love "root causes", might as well throw one back at them.
If Norris is treasonous to Canada for suggesting Alberta separate if another NEP is forced upon it, then he should be considered treasonous to Albertans if he stood by & accepted another NEP.

Mr. Lahey said:

"Without the oil Alberta would be a nothing more than a redneck backwater, and its citizens "the Newfies of the Prairie" as and earlier poster stated, and that's a fact."

Making friends with fellow Canadians then, are ya?

~~~

Kevin B...Alberta 70 years ago, had been a province for a mere 30 years at the time of the Great Depression.

Oil had not yet been found; it was just getting on its feet.

Agriculture was the main income source and the severe drought of the times killed that income base.

Albertans would have paid, had they been able.

Not one o us will forget the NEP; it took many years to come back from that hit.

~~~

Alberta Girl, thumbs up!

Love those Albertans:)

Was one...kind of always makes me one;)

And that does not mean that we hold to a negative regard for folks from other provinces; that is just silly, isn't it.

I found through the last election campaign, a very nice coming out of similar attitudes across the country. People were beginning to get a grasp on what makes different regions tick.

The tempo may be different, but that doesn't equate to animosity.

And the tempo in Alberta can only be described as over the top busy...but get one on one and the conversation will be informative, lively, and straight from the heart.

Someone, Scarface I think, commented on what happens when the oil/gas is gone....Alberta is planning for that.

Coal is stepping back up to the plate....cleaner burning than in the past and in high demand globally as well.

Ethanol is being talked about but it takes so much energy to produce it, that it may have drawbacks in the long run...also uses prime agricultural land for fuel production, not food.

And then we have the gas/oil reserves off the coast of B.C.....waiting, waiting, waiting

... & no, I'm not an Albertan.

Hey... bigcitylib has a blog. Go figure.

Anyways... I totally agree with Alberta Girl and others but I will go even further in this argument. The reason we are prosperous is because we haven't voted in an NDP or liberal government. A majority of Albertans are conservative. That means, in general, we are not looking to the government to take care of ourselves. Other provinces mentioned have voted these socialists in and have bankrupted their provinces. So, those people in other provinces that had some accountability, responsibility, and a hard working attitude would move to Calgary. The rest of Canada is slowly losing their entrepreneurs and hard workers to Alberta and the people with socialist attitudes are staying put where they are.

As far as separatism goes, Quebec is different because their votes could make a difference in the federal government. Alberta, on the other hand, has far less seats than we should have and still not enough seats to make a difference. Canadians, other than the western provinces, kept voting in socialist corrupt governments. Frustration was extremely high and separation started being considered. Now, however, the government voted in by the rest of Canada was the same government Alberta wanted. Separatism has deflated as, although we didn't make a difference, the type of government we feel is right for Canada is in power.

However, we still fear the prevailing socialist attitude of many Canadians and another NEP grab. There are two large socialistic parties out there who are hungry for power and will do whatever they can to get it back. Alberta is still thinking that we better set ourselves up (the oft mentioned firewall) so that if need be, we can separate if socialism prevails. It is good sense considering the past.

Funny how you Albertans are considered so biogoted, yet Calgary & Edmonton, along with Vancouver, polled ahead of Toronto & Montreal in accepting others of a different culture as neigbours.

Denis - I went to your link and looked at the map - is your point that the oil and gas does stop at the Sask border? - I believe this is a map of the "developed" oil and gas fields?. Not sure what point you are trying to make?

Lanny,

Doesn't Sask. vote in NDP governments on a regular basis? Doesn't Manitoba occasionally? Even B.C.? Aren't those Western Provinces?

BCL - you replied to Lanny - "Doesn't Sask. vote in NDP governments on a regular basis? Doesn't Manitoba occasionally? Even B.C.? Aren't those Western Provinces?"

I read and reread Lanny's post and for the life of me I can't figure out what the hell you are talking about. I think you just proved Lanny's point.

Thanks Alberta Girl. Yes, bigcitylib, they do. Other provinces aside from Alberta vote in provincial NDP and liberal governments. Federally, western provinces have voted conservative in general. The reason Alberta is doing so much better than BC, Sask, Manitoba, etc etc is because they have had a Conservative provincial government for decades.

Alberta Girl, you're the best.

I appreciate every post you write. That's for the education on western Canada.

Alberta Girl,

You are correct the map shows oil & gas development, not what's under the ground. It supports the argument you've been making that the business climate the Alberta government has created has allowed our resources to be developed into the industry it is today. Its not just that we have oil, we have an environment that makes development worthwhile. The oil & gas definitely does not end at the border :).

I simply provided the link because Enough mentioned it, but I'm sure not everyone has seen it.

Take care & good job.

For a general idea of what's in the ground in Western Canada check out this site which has a map of the "Western Sedimentary Basin" which holds the oil, gas and coal. Note how much is in southern Saskatchewan. Also a nice chunk of oil sands extends east out of Alberta into north west Sask. Will it ever be developed? Time will tell.

http://www.terraengine.com/WCSB/index.cfm

Bill D

Please, Alberta is sitting on an ocean of sweet light crude whereas Sask. reserves are heavy oil that requires upgrading and is simply not nearly as profitable but given that the industry is balls to the walls and is booming.
Alberta gal's contention that Alberta's wealth is due to good gov't. stewardship is kneeslappingly laughable. Alberta is rich in spite of clowns like Ralph Klein,not because of them. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. (Provincial treasurer Stockwell Day, need I say more)...
In Sask. we are saddled yet with the Conservative debt of Grant Devine and forever tethered to the corpse of infinitely needy agriculture.
Big city, I agree. Alberta separatism is TREASON.

First, a general comment: I hope everyone (bcl) noticed that Alberta Girl and I were able to exchange views without descending into name calling, profanity, and the like.

Now to some quick points: I know all about the NEP and its impact on Alberta; my best friend worked for Schlumberger in Lloydminster and the Hat, testing oil wells. After the NEP, he (and his engineering degree) were moved to the US of A, where he married a nice girl, and is now the father of two US citizens. He's happy, but I can't help but think Canada lost a lot of productive people like Ken because of the NEP. (And yes, I know that PetroCan stands for PE Trudeau rips off Canadians..)

But, by 1985, when Getty got in, the NEP was gone and Alberta was getting world prices for its oil. There had been a vicious recession in 1980 when Paul Volcker raised short term rates to nearly 20%, but that was long over by 1985 as well. Alberta had recovered too, but when oil prices sank again in the mid-80's, Alberta's finances sank with it. And, as I noted, it's not my assertion; it's the considered opinion of an Alberta-based university professor. I will make this point one last, gentle time: for the last 35 years, Alberta's prosperity has been tied to the price of oil (except, as you note, when the Liberals screw with them). Whether you vote in Conservative governments or not is irrelevant; oil dollars don't care who occupies the Legislature.

Buffalo Bean: As I noted in my post, the greater circumstance - in this case, the Depression - was the determining factor in Alberta's default. I wasn't around at the time, and I haven't studied it enough to say whether or not it was justified; I used it to refute the notion that Albertans as a people are more hardworking, entrepeneurial, etc., than the rest of Canada. They are people just like the rest of us, and when Mother Nature pushed them to the wall, they wanted relief too. I'm not casting judgement but I'm tired of hearing that Albertans are "special"; they're not.

BCL: Mike Harris's policies came to be known as "Cornpone Communism"? Funny, a search through four different engines didn't find a single citation of this term. I live in Toronto, and have never heard it. I suspect you made it up. I know the Tory strategy was centred around "905" vs "416" (for those who don't know, the telephone area codes of the area surrounding Toronto vs the city proper), but as someone who lives in 905, I can tell you it's mostly suburbs, not farmers, and my riding happens to be one of the most populous both provincially and federally.

And really, Walkerton? The water system was run by two alcoholics (they kept beer in the office refrigerator) who kept their jobs through the Liberal government of David Peterson and the NDP government of Bob Rae. Walkerton's water system was eventually overwhelmed by massive e-coli runoff after 1) a huge buildup in the pork industry, supported by all three major parties, which resulted in thousands of tons of pig manure that needed disposal, and 2) massive rains in the spring, which BCL will doubtless attribute to some Tory conspiracy. It was Harris's bad luck it happened on his watch, but anyone without an axe to grind would realize that it didn't matter who was in charge, or what changes had been made to the Ministry of Health *WHEN THE TWO DRUNKS RUNNING THE SYSTEM HIDE THE FAILED WATER TEST RESULTS*. The system depends on the people in the front lines being honest; two sotted buffoons who cared more about their jobs than their neighbours' lives were the only cause of this tragedy.

And Mike Harris got more than half a million people off the welfare rolls. At $20k per pop, that's $10 billion a year right there, and he did it when everyone's pal, Paul Martin, was slashing transfer payments to the provinces to put the federal fiscal house in order. Sure, a resurgent economy helped him (and to be fair, the 1990 recession didn't help Bob Rae one bit), just like rising oil prices helped Alberta, but a booming economy in the 1980's didn't help David Peterson balance his budgets, a fact you clearly forget.

Re: "Alberta separatism is TREASON"

It may be, at least to the ROC, but it is none the less a growing sentiment here. Trust me, as a Lower Mainland BC transplant to Calgary I am as surprised to find myself sharing this sentiment as those outside Alberta are surprised we hold it :). While not perhaps a hard-core separatist, I do believe that confederation as it is does not work and the most likely outcome is a separate Alberta. Ideally, I would prefer for confederation to be reworked to address the shortfalls in our current system however, as a realist, I doubt very much central Canada has the will to change the system.

That said, Alberta has a ways to go before separatism becomes a real option - not only from an emotional perspective, but from an infrastructure perspective as well. What I do believe, is that very few are interested in using separatism as some sort of perpetual bargaining chip to gain incremental concessions. We either want the system fixed or to leave the system.

KevinB said: "I will make this point one last, gentle time: for the last 35 years, Alberta's prosperity has been tied to the price of oil (except, as you note, when the Liberals screw with them)."

I guess there are 2 sides to this issue. The one side that you've pointed out is that our windfalls are tied to oil revenues. The other side is that there would be no (or reduced) windfalls if much of the oil was still in the ground. This is where the Saskatchewan/Alberta comparison comes in. The question, as alluded to earlier, is why does exploration and development of gas and oil effectively stop at the Saskatchewan border? The suggestion made by Alberta Girl and others is that Alberta's government has created a climate that encourages exploration and development. If such a business climate did not exist would it be too big of a stretch to suggest we would be in no position (or at least be in a reduced position) to benefit from rising energy prices?

KevinB:...If you Google..."pone/definition"...you'll find it...

denis.....Exploration and development of oil and gas does not stop at the Sask./Alberta border. The oil and gas sector in Sask. is going full tilt. Alberta happens to be blessed with an abundance of light, sweet crude. This is geology, not ideology. You won the lottery. Larry, Moe and Curly Joe could be running the place with the same result.

Denis - you bring up a very good point that once people move to Alberta their whole view of this province changes - they begin to understand what makes us"tick" so to speak and why separatism still simmers just below the surface. Without a doubt - if the Liberals had been re-elected - separatism would have become a fact. For now - it is off the radar, but any hint that another NEP or any other ideas to take over Alberta's resource revenue will be the deciding factor.

BCL, Zuma and several of the other posters here do not get it - they do not realize that Alberta already "shares" their oil revenue with the rest of the country. They still like to believe that Alberta is the only province in Canada sitting on pools of oil and this is the reason for the wealth of Alberta. They for some reason, fail to grasp the connection that how Alberta has been governed for the past 30 years and especially in the last 13, has a correlation to the success of the province. They fail to grasp that by voting Liberal or NDP governments who believe that governments should be in charge of everything and to allow the citizens to have any responsibility is somehow a bad thing.

So the left consistently looks down their noses at Alberta as some kind of "country cousin" - a cousin who really has no idea about the "real world". But the laugh is on them because the "real world" is happening in Alberta.

Now I don't expect that people like BCL or Zuma or any of the other lefties who like to play with our minds will change because of Kate's site, but it sure is fun to give them the other side of the story.

Thanks to Denis for adding the fact that if Alberta didn't support taking the oil out of the ground we wouldn't be where we are. Hopefully other provinces, under the Conservative government's support for provincial autonomy, will grasp the concept, start supporting enteprenurial endeavours in their own provinces and encouraging developement of their own resources. I won't hold my breath on that though because voters like BCL and Zuma will most likely not see what their provinces could be and will continue to vote in governments that see abdicating responsibilities as reducing their power.

If you continually decade after decade vote in socialist governments, soon the voters in that province do not know any other way and the expectation is that the government will take care of you. The socialist agenda becomes a culture of entitlement that permeates our universities and because our universities turn our our teachers, has begun to permeate our schools and each generation is "taught" that premise.

That is why people who move to Alberta from other parts of the country are surprised to find themselves with a whole new belief pattern after living here. They truly do see things in a new light and begin to realize that what they believed, heard and have been taught about Alberta and Conservatism was not totally the truth.

And then I read articles like this

http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/news/editorial/story {Albertans have all the luck and lots of money)

Now wonder non-Albertans think what they do - SIGH!!

Garry P: I took your advice and googled "pone/defintion".

I already knew what cornpone was (I've eaten it - very nice); it was BCL's "Cornpone Communism" as a term used to describe the Mike Harris government that I found suspect, and I didn't find any reference to that term at all. If you can enlighten me with a specific link, I'd be grateful.

KevinB:...no links have I...I think the attempted symbolism is evident (and a 'one-off' as they say).

Alberta Girl: That last post was a very eloquent explanation of the situation. Can I quote it on my blog?

It is hard not to feed the trolls like BCL. At least we are able to respond finally. For much too long the blatant rewriting of history, the outright fictional creations of lefties like BCL have been left unanswered. This is their modus operandi. Never mind the truth, lie and move on to another story.

Keep it up Alberta Girl. Here in BC the NDP had a go at destroying the economy for 10 years. Nearly succeeded. It was only when we finally had enough that change happened.

Lanny - you certainly can quote me - as long as it is a good thing!! haha - let me know the blog so I can come check it out.

Thanks so much Alberta Girl.

http://lannysblog.blogspot.com

Zuma said:
"Please, Alberta is sitting on an ocean of sweet light crude whereas Sask. reserves are heavy oil that requires upgrading and is simply not nearly as profitable but given that the industry is balls to the walls and is booming."

That's BS. Most of Alberta's easily accessed light crude is long gone. We get more revenue from gas and we don't whine about trying to get decent oil from tar laden dirt. We just DO IT! Alberta produces about 1 million barrels a day from the tar sands. By 2015 that should be 2.5 million per day.

Bill in Calgary

Figures BigCityLib has moved to Toronto. How is it that we get all the losers? And of course his 'facts' don't check out. He's a Liberal.

In Ontario as I recall, the Peterson Liberals created a $45 billion dollar debt. Not to be outdone, the Rae Socialists doubled it. Of course even that wasn't enough damage - Standard and Poors dropped our credit rating from AAA to B.

The Harris' Conservatives paid down the debt. And Ontario became prosperous again. But only for his two terms.

Now that we have the McGimpy Liberals, we're back to increasing the debt by leaps and bounds again. His plans for natural gas plant construction projects rather than retrofitting our coal plants for example. There goes $30 billion or so.

Alberta is proving to be a big club in dealing with federal socialists/liberals. To that end I don't think it'll need to separate. Wave the club around every once in a while and hit some lefty on the head, and that ought to be enough. I'm just glad that club is in the Conservative corner.