One of the reasons we Canadians react so strongly to friendly fire incidents involving the Americans is because our friendly neighbours to the south have a reputation of shooting first and asking questions later. Although I'm not in the military, I have friends who are and I've worked closely with the Military Police. Even on training exercises, American soldiers are notorious for their hair triggers.

I hope our soldiers have clear goals and their rules of engagement aren't fogged up by well-meaning but tactically inane "warm & fuzzy" political guidance. I hope they come home safe and I'm proud they're representing our country in this important mission.

Given the suicide attackers are all locals who drive local vehicles they don't stand out from the crowd. The insurgents don't wear uniforms the Canadians do.

If you are 50 meters from a checkpoint in a vehicle loaded full of explosives it doesn't take much to shove it into drive and hit the gas to get to your intended target. Even if you happen to get shot if your vehicle has enough momentum it will do the rest without you.

Like today's story about a Canadian group going to talk to local elders and leaders only to have one drop an axe into the back of a Canadian's head/neck and another to lob a grenade. The trick is distinguishing friend and foe.

Further, if the Canadians erroneously open up the guns on an innocent local and blow them away it makes them look bad and has repercussions of trying to build rapport with the locals.

After the Afghanis had the Soviets turn the place into a pile of rubble and the American pursuit of Al Quaeda operatives; there is an inherent burden of overcoming the perception that all outsiders are there to put one in the graveyard. Remember the Americans were supporting the mujahdeen against the Soviets. The enemy of my enemy is my friend policy.

If the average wage is $300 US per year, no wonder they grow opium to get by. The average age expectancy is 43. Desperation begets desperation.

We need to ask these questions indeed. I have a related post here re. the axe attack on Lt. Trevor Greene by an Afghani Jihadist.

I said the following towards the end of the post:

"I would also declare that although I'm proud and thankful to our great American friends for coming to Lt. Greene's aid, we Canadians need more of these services of our own. After all, those who are willing to pay the ultimate price to stand up for Canada, for freedom, democracy and the rule of law deserve the best we have to offer, and no less!"

http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com/2006/03/update-canadian-soldier-was-attacked_04.html

Mac said:"I hope our soldiers have clear goals and their rules of engagement aren't fogged up by well-meaning but tactically inane "warm & fuzzy" political guidance."

The political cadres are here: This is work of Martin/Graham/Pettigrew, et al. The "All of Government" approach; the food chain in this approach? Fill in the blanks: CIDA, FAC, RCMP, CF.

Shorthand/code: Peacekeeping. +

Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT)

Since August 2005, a Canadian PRT has operated in Kandahar, where it is expected to remain until February 2007. The PRT brings together elements from the Canadian Forces (CF), Foreign Affairs Canada (FAC), the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA), and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) in an integrated Canadian effort, also known as the All of Government approach. +
http://www.canada-afghanistan.gc.ca/background-en.asp

Further, and directly on topic, I say:

If the current rules of engagement were crafted by the appeasenik-pacifist Liberal government upon recommendation from their pacifist leftist supporters, then we must rewrite the whole book to reflect the reality as it is today with the Afghan mission. Current rules of engagement only serve to endanger Canadian warriors, making it extraordinarily difficult to do their job. The Jihadists know this and take advantage of it.

It's going to take some time to restore what the Liberals took away or replaced with whatever crap they deemed.

We must, however, move fast!

After I heard about the action today, I too am wondering about the orders that the soldiers are working with. I would hope that they're not as warm & fuzzy now as they were this am.

i think maybe some of whats happening is the enemy knows the canadians have taken over command of the nato operation and they're testing them. they might think if they cause some deaths and injuries real quick the media and the left wing people will start yelling for them to come home .i'm damn sure they'll be watching their backs better after the axe freak though .
it seems to me lisa la flamme and steve chao are doing a good job of reporting . it looks like they're trying to be positive about the troops and telling as much information as they can. what ive seen of the cbc they're more interested in body counts than reporting on anything . are they even there ? i don't have t.v. just the internet so i'm not sure if its differet on the television news.

don't tell anyone but we're prepared to kill, kill, kill. is that a little too brutal? you would think, living under the bombardment of the leftist weeny press, anyone daring to defend themselves should be armed with bonbons, gum, and flowers. if our entire force is not retarded they will do everything in their power to defend their position and personnel from harm. if that includes hunting down the bad guys, yup, we do that too. JUST DON'T TELL ANYONE!!!!

Ottawa Core, I promise, I won't tell.

There's no doubt the locals are testing the Canadians since it's now our show.

I know Harper & company have their hands full, trying to wrestle a semblance of government away from the supposedly non-partisan civil service but I hope O'Connor gets on the horn and tells his men to stay safe at whatever cost and screw the politics.

Dear Canadian Friends,

I read a bit about the incident at the time it happened. It appears to me the roadblock troops were bringing a vehicle under fire to slow it down and ascertain its status. One thing I have not seen mentioned, although I might very well have missed it, is that our US Troops and, I would also think your Canadian Troops, are the best trained and most skillful marksmen that have ever existed.

I would just imagine that if the intention was to bring death to the people in the vehicle, they would be dead. I have no idea if firing warning shots was the intention of the people manning the roadblock but it might have been.

The second part, as to rules of engagement, I hope that when Canadian Troops are put in harm's way they have every right to defend themselves using reasonable judgment and they are not hampered by some restrictions that preclude them from using good common sense fast defense responses. Thank the Lord for all of our Troops, Canadian and US who are busting their butts under extremely difficult circumstances.

Second Canadian soldier dies as result of Afghanistan accident
this from mcleans magazine

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CP) - A second soldier hurt in the rollover of an armoured vehicle in Afghanistan several days ago has died from his injuries.

Master Cpl. Timothy Wilson of Grande Prairie, Alta., died at a U.S.-run hospital in Landstuhl, Germany early Sunday.

thanks,
ole texas guy,

i hope they do have the appropriate rules of engagement as well. the odds are better now that our government has changed. we'll see.

godspeed to our troops.

Thank you to the young people who have paid the ultimate price in the service of their country!!!

I'm in Kandahar and the answer is simple, really. Canadians share the road with hundreds of vehicles every day, and 90% of them are Toyota Corollas, just like the one that blew up and the taxi that got in the way. They do their best to force oncoming traffic off the road, pissing off many locals to no end. They've tossed rocks, waved their guns, yelled and swore and shot into hoods in an attempt to create space on the unruly streets of Kandahar. But they can't close every road every time they leave camp.

The larger question that bears asking is amply stated by that picture Kate. Who would buy armoured cars with pneumatic wheels? Who would expect them to remain mobile in a shrapnel and bullet tire-shredding environment?

WL.

I am military and the LAV III isnt the problem. Sure it is top heavy when you add on all the armour but so is any combat vehicle with the exception of main battle tanks. the height of the vehicle is a trade off against safety for combat effectiveness to allow the gunner and commander to be able to see farther as well as to allow a greater punch to the vehicle main weapons. As to the blown out tire that in no way contributed to the death of these fine troops, I have seen the LAV III drive around missing a couple complete sets tires and rims. It has eight wheels and it is reasonably balanced. What everyone has to understand is this. Take your car, drive downtown where ever you are and understand that one of the many vehicles around with no warning is going to suddenly drive into you. Not an easy solution unless you are going to start blowing away every vehicle that even moves thus there goes the hearts and mind campaign. If someone has a workable solution I am sure the military would love to hear it

"... there is no Canadian so mourned by our liberal left media as he who falls at the hands of a trigger-happy american."

And what does the right blogosphere suggest? That we celebrate such casualties as burnt-offerings on the altar to the U.S.A?

As a result of The last Canadian soldier that tried to defend Caadian property and life,he was vilified and he tried to commit suicide,his regiment was disbanded and was digraced by the very govt.that he had plegded to defend all under the watch of the previous govt. and our prime minister Honest Jean.No wonder that they let someone run into their vehicle without firing.

Political correctness costs another life...

A man wielding an axe has critically injured a Canadian soldier in southern Afghanistan, during a meeting with tribal leaders in Kandahar.

The soldier, who had removed his helmet as a mark of respect, was repeatedly struck by an attacker, who was reportedly not a council member.

God... ah..., Allah forbid we offend these bloodthirsty madmen. Why, oh liberal apologists, would you let down your guard in a room full of religious fanatics who think attaching explosives to their children is a legitimate way to wage war?

Afghan villagers won't say who axe-wielding attacker of Canadian was

LES PERREAUX Sat Mar 4, 6:29 PM ET

KANDAHAR,
Afghanistan (CP) - The attack sounds like the work of a madman, an axe-wielding attempt at murder rather than an act of war.

Lieut. Trevor Greene was chatting with dozens of elders near his forward base in Gumbad when an Afghan villager pulled an axe with a 60-centimetre handle from inside his clothing.

The villager, in his 20s, held the axe high over Greene's head and yelled "Allah Akbar" - God is Great - the signature call of an Islamist suicide attacker.

The man fulfilled his destiny. He delivered his nearly lethal blow and then died where he stood, his body riddled with bullets from Capt. Kevin Schamuhn and two of his fellow soldiers.

Schamuhn, Greene's platoon commander, was sure Greene was dead.

"It was my initial assessment that Trevor was dead on impact because of the force with which the axe hit his head," Greene recounted Saturday.

"Fortunately, that was not the case."

The notion the act was of a lone maniac quickly disappeared.

While villagers scattered in all directions, enemy small-arms fire broke out from across the river. Canadians and their Afghan allies returned fire. Then, as things calmed slightly, another man moved toward coalition forces and tossed a hand grenade.

The Afghans and Canadians returned fire again as the grenade exploded harmlessly. Schamuhn believes the man was hit but the grenade attacker scurried away in the mayhem.

As things calmed down, a U.S. Blackhawk helicopter whisked Greene away to a Canadian hospital at Kandahar Airfield. He remains there in serious condition, awaiting a plane ride to Germany and home.

The Afghans and Canadians went into the village to find answers. All they found were seven old men and some women and children.

"There were no fighting-age males there," said Schamuhn.

"The leaders we had been speaking to earlier had disappeared and all the young men that we were talking to had disappeared."

No villager would say who the dead attacker was.

The platoon from Company A of the Princess Patricia's Light Infantry brigade in Afghanistan was making a series of stops in small villages Saturday from their forward operating base 70 kilometres north of Kandahar.

Moving into rural areas is a key part of Canada's plan to bring security and reconstruction to Kandahar province.

Villagers in a meeting hours earlier welcomed them with blankets and bread and meats.

The meetings with local leaders are known as shura and are key to getting anything done in rural areas.

The fateful meeting was off to a good start when the attacker struck, Schamuhn said.

The first hint of trouble could only be seen in the light of hindsight, he said.

"About two or three minutes prior to the incident, all the children that were present were escorted away, about 20 to 30 metres away," Schamuhn recalled.

"But none of us picked up on this, there was no weird feeling, no gut feeling that something was about to go down."

Schamuhn has grown to trust villagers through dozens of encounters. He and Greene had removed their helmets and set down their arms in a sign of respect and trust.

"I'm sure I've shaken hands with some people who have plotted against us," he said.

"You can't tell."

Schamuhn said he had started to believe the oft-repeated Afghan contention that foreigners are causing all the trouble. He doesn't believe it now.

"This guy, he was a local villager from this village who was coerced or persuaded by some outside force to do this against us," Schamuhn said.

"We were completely vulnerable to them and they took complete advantage of that. There was a lot of people who knew what was about to happen."

Schamuhn and his men were back Saturday night in their small camp near Gumbad. They stay in a mud-walled farmers compound, with razor wire providing an outside ring of security.

Schamuhn said his men are fine, although sleep would not come easy this night. They are warriors, he said.

"My guys are ready to fight again. They're ready to go back out and do their job."

"They are ready to go and protect and continue on this mission. They are not afraid."

Lately it seems like the Canadian media is trying to turn Canadian forces involvement in Afghanistan into Canada's "Iraq". They also seem to be trying to attach this latest mission to the new Conservative gov't, for the most part omitting the fact that this commitment was made under the previous Liberal gov't.

In the last few weeks the MSM has started reporting every causualty, injury, and accident; dragging stories on for days. I don't want the sacrifices of our armed forces to be down played, but i don't really get the impression that the goal of our media is to honour their sacrifices. It seems to me that they are trying to poison Canadian's appetites for military involvement in Afghanistan. (or anywhere else) One news report on CTV stated "expect Canadian casualties to increase as Canadian presence in Afghanistan rises" Well of course its going to increase with more time and larger numbers. I expect the coverage of this mission to become more and more seditious as the death toll rises.

So far there have been 9 casualties since Canada became involved in the Afghan conflict. While its terrible that these people had to die, they knew the risks of their job, and believed in what they were doing. Personally i don't view the death of a soldier in combat, fighting for a noble cause (Afghanistan being a legitmate war)as a tragedy. And certianly the 9 Canadian casualties pale in comparision to the over 2,000 American causualties in Iraq.

Currently the oppostion Liberal and NDP have been petitioning the gov't via the media for involvement in military decisions, including when to pull out, and whether to extend Canadian involvement. The Liberals never supported this when they were in the driver's seat, and the NDP are largely pacifistic so their opinion is already known. Making military decisions open to partisan debate would hamstring our forces beyond effectiveness.

"War is bad" is not an effective arguement. Of course war is bad, and should be undertaken rarely, but its also sometimes necessary. I'm not sure that the Canada the we find ourselves living in these days is prepared for the realities of war, and our media certainly will not help them deal with those realities.

Mission Accomplished:

Bush: Working with a fine coalition, our military went to Afghanistan, destroyed the training camps of Al Qaida, and put the Taliban out of business
forever. 11/24/03

Bush: Because of American soldiers and our brave allies and friends, who have fought beside them, the Taliban is out of business. 3/15/02

Bush: Our first objective in the first theater against the war against terror has been achieved: The Taliban are out of business. 2/4/02

Bush: Now thanks to the United States and our fine allies, Afghanistan is no longer a haven for terror, the Taliban is history, and the Afghan people are free. 8/14/03

Bush: Today, Afghanistan is a world away from the nightmare of the Taliban. 7/12/04

Thanks Steve in BC for those excellent reminders that the brutal Taliban regime no longer rules Afghanistan, and it is Canada's duty to ensure they never do again.

Saw this on another site yesterday and copied it. Some things never change for those serving in Afghanistan.

The Young British Soldier

When the 'arf-made recruity goes out to the East, 'E acts like a babe an' 'e drinks like a beast, An' 'e wonders because 'e is frequent deceased, Ere 'e's fit for to serve as a soldier.

Serve, serve, serve as a soldier, Serve, serve, serve as a soldier, Serve, serve, serve as a soldier, So-oldier _of_ the Queen!

Now all you recruities what's drafted to-day, You shut up your rag-box an' 'ark to my lay, An' I'll sing you a soldier as far as I may: A soldier what's fit for a soldier.

Fit, fit, fit for a soldier . . .

First mind you steer clear o' the grog-sellers' huts, For they sell you Fixed Bay'nets that rots out your guts -- Ay, drink that 'ud eat the live steel from your butts --An' it's bad for the young British soldier.

Bad, bad, bad for the soldier . . .

When the cholera comes -- as it will past a doubt -- Keep out of the wet and don't go on the shout, For the sickness gets in as the liquor dies out, A' it crumples the young British soldier.

Crum-, crum-, crumples the soldier . . .

But the worst o' your foes is the sun over'ead: You must wear your 'elmet for all that is said: If 'e finds you uncovered 'e'll knock you down dead, An' you'll die like a fool of a soldier.

Fool, fool, fool of a soldier . . .

If you're cast for fatigue by a sergeant unkind, Don't grouse like a woman nor crack on nor blind; Be handy and civil, and then you will find That it's beer for the young British soldier.

Beer, beer, beer for the soldier . . .

Now, if you must marry, take care she is old -- A troop-sergeant's widow's the nicest I'm told, For beauty won't help if your rations is cold, Nor love ain't enough for a soldier.

'Nough, 'nough, 'nough for a soldier . . .

If the wife should go wrong with a comrade, be loath To shoot when you catch 'em -- you'll swing, on my oath! -- Make 'im take 'er and keep 'er: that's Hell for them both, An' you're shut o' the curse of a soldier.

Curse, curse, curse of a soldier . . .

When first under fire an' you're wishful to duck, Don't look nor take 'eed at the man that is struck, Be thankful you're livin', and trust to your luck And march to your front like a soldier.

Front, front, front like a soldier . . .

When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch, Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch; She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich, An' she'll fight for the young British soldier.

Fight, fight, fight for the soldier . . .

When shakin' their bustles like ladies so fine, The guns o' the enemy wheel into line, Shoot low at the limbers an' don't mind the shine, For noise never startles the soldier.

Start-, start-, startles the soldier . . .

If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white, Remember it's ruin to run from a fight: So take open order, lie down, and sit tight, And wait for supports like a soldier.

Wait, wait, wait like a soldier . . .

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Go, go, go like a soldier, Go, go, go like a soldier, Go, go, go like a soldier, So-oldier _of_ the Queen!

-- Rudyard Kipling

Lest We Forget. +

Kandahar crash claims second Canadian
Posted by Clive
On 03/05/2006 10:12:37 AM PST · 4 replies · 47+ views

National Post ^ | 2006-03-05 | Les Perreaux
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan -- Shocked Canadian troops are rethinking a host of tactics after a devastating week where two soldiers died and a dozen were hurt in four attacks and a road accident.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/browse +

(3) Official History of the Canadian Army in the Second World War.

At Dieppe, from a force of fewer than 5000 men engaged for only nine hours, the Canadian Army lost more prisoners than in the whole eleven months of the later campaign in North-West Europe, or the twenty months during which Canadians fought in Italy. Sadder still was the loss in killed; the total of fatal casualties was 56 officers and 851 other ranks. Canadian casualties of all categories aggregated 3369. +
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdieppe.htm

our friendly neighbours to the south have a reputation of shooting first and asking questions later

Mac, the US military is the best equiped, trained and disciplined in the world. We aren't fighting a conventional war where rules of engagement are honored. If you polled most Americans I would guess most are unaware that Canada even has a military anymore.

We've had 2000 casualties in Iraq after 3000+ at the WTC and the Pentagon(yes, I considered them war zones). It's easy to understand why the US military may "have a reputation of shooting first and asking questions later".

Trust me, you don't have to be in the military to develope a shoot first and ask questions later mentality. Besides future threats from Iran, I can't image that much more time will pass before these vermin sucessfully get a dirty bomb to a major US city. We can never inspect every container arriving here.

Steve, how small and venial you look from the cushiness of your home or neighborhood Starbucks minimizing the accomplishment of restoring basic freedoms to basically poor people in Iraq and Afghanistan who were unable to do it for themselves. You would deny others what you take for granted.

I'm really sick of your smarmy postings.

Penny.
I'm not minimizing the accomplishments, I'm minimizing the chimp. Now near 1600 days since 9/11 and "Osama dead or alive". Don't forget he restored the poppy opium trade for the war on drugs?

The point is he's wrong. It's not over..maybe at least not for 10 years. The Taliban and Osama are still there, now reinforced with what the squads have learned in the "insurgency factory" in Iraq.

This is a full spectrum operation in a place that would be in chaos if we weren't there.

I never get sick of your pennypuff postings.

Am I to understand that we lost 2 brave souls in a vehicle rollover yet a direct hit by a suicide car bomb on one of these armored vehicles resulted in no deaths?....Seems to me it's the right vehicle for the job since all similar designs are prone to rollovers.

I listen to an uninformed liberal talking of backing out Afghanistan with Rex Murphy on the CBC, as I tap this out.

Fortunately, most callers agree for the need for we Canadian, and nato forces in general to stay and work to help Afghan leaders gain a firm and fair government.

*Give me freedom or give me death*, may as well be the motto for forces in Afghanistan because that is so far, THE undiscovered truth.

I hope leaders make this clear to our military guys. Taliban or Jihad rule is primitive, powerful and all controlling.

Hyenas rule this way to some degree. When they see the tiger killing his attackers, they cower, but when they see the tiger losing ground, hyenas swarm in for the kill.

There can be no backing off or backing down in Afghanistan. There must be a change for the better for people and that will take years. That better way of life must be made clear to those who are loyal to the Taliban.

Thousands of Taliban are not going to catch a space ship to live on the moon, so it follows that they they must be able to see a better way of life and be free to join in.

This is going to take some time.

Liberals who bleat and whine about losses of Canadian boys fail to see the picture and are in a sense traitors.

There are going to be big losses over time, but backing out now means we would give a green light to 220 million in Indonesia and hundreds of millions elsewhere to swarm in with rigid fundamentalist rule.

The life of the living dead that Afghans were suffocating under before the Americans showed up could be spread like a plague.

Liberals, please look about these blogsites and grasp the picture. Backing away from the Syrian, Iranian, and I dare say Saudi backed Jihad rule of terror, is out of the question.

Freedom! Not death. TG

Hard to know for sure but have seen the odd article indicating JTF2 is active in Afghanistan. And that their principle activity is making "house calls", often at night, to the Islamic Fascists who take pot shots at our guys by day.

I also don't think the rules of engagement are "wussified" for the regular troops, at least not relative to our allies. They are having exactly the same kinds of issues that the Americans and Brits have been having.

Tony G...traitors?
As usual someone questions the patriotism of Canadaians who won't call soldier's deaths a good thing?
You have confused legitimate public debate with service in combat.
People say that they "supported" the war and "faced" down evil.
We need to cut the bullshit and remind these people that fighting strawmen (lefties, media) and fighting guerrillas are vastly different things.

What a putz.

The Rules of Engagement will not be public knowledge. That would be a breach of security, and would be used by the enemy.

However, rest assured they are most certainly robust enough to ensure our troops can take action as required.

The taxi incident was an accident. If you have ever driven in a Middle eastern country you can certainly understand that they will happen.

The RPG incident in which the troops did not return fire was excatly what they should have done. In accordance with the Rules of War, you just don't open fire randomly. You need to spot the enemy. You have to know who you are firing at.

We are professionals, we are not gun-tooting yee-haws that are going over to tear up the place.

War is very precies and measured mayhem. You have to control that mayhem. Canada and its soliders have been operating in conditions such as these for the past 16 years. We know what we are doing. Canadians just seem to tuning in, maybe becuase we are using the word peace-keeping to describe what we doing. In my mind we were never peace-keeping.

We want to win the hearts and minds along with the war. Do not judge how our Allies tend to operate as the way. I've seen first-hand what lack of training and lack of discipline can lead too....many dead civilians, and a mission that can never recover.

Trust me, we have the best soliders in the world operating in an enviroment that they have been trained and operating in for the past two decades. We know what we are doing.