Kate,
That's going a bit far with the ironic humor. No "gets what they deserve" when they are threatened with death by islamicfacscopigs.

Now if they threaten someone with death and they get a dose of .45's from a Marine sidearm as a result--then THEY deserve it.

I was being sarcastic, obviously - and there's a reason for that. When editors argue that publishing cartoons is too "provocative", then they are sending a message that a violent response is not only possible, but justified.

Stockwell Day just announced in media that the REAL costs of the gun registry are about to be released by the AG, that they are significantly higher than already reported and that people are going to be upset...

Sounds like a recipe for knocking the Emerson & Fortier matters off the front page, hopefully.

Turkey is thought of as being more tolerant. so much so that *some* in the EU would like to have them as a member country, sort of a window to the east... ufff.
What luck, to think that these people may soon have passport and visa free access to Europe. The right to work, the right to school, the right to tell Austrian women to cover their heads... so they are not offended?

The Gun Registry scam is going to make Adscam look like an amateur hour in steal-from-the-government-department.

Wanna bet there wil be lots of Liberal friendly firms invoicing for no work, invoicing multiple times for the same work, getting preferential contract treatment.

gee I wonder if any technical subsidiary of Canada Steamship Lines might be involved ??

Dear Mr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad,

I sincerely hope that when you die, God turns out to be a bitched out Shemale who looks just like Rosie O'Donell, and the Prophet is her Homosexual housekeeper... If there's any justice in the Universe.

Lets hope the Gun Registry isn't too bad on the expense side... it's our money after all. $2 billion is hard enough to swallow.

that's right Fred.
it doesn't serve us to simply say, well it really cost the taxpayers "2.7x" or "3.2x"
I want to know, who was paid, and how much.

and how much found its way back to the liberal party.
"name the names"

Ha... wishful thinking on all our parts Marc.

Can you say "horsetrade", cause that's whats going to happen. Stephan Harper is going to be saying "I want this..." to Graham, and Graham is going to say "if you protect 'place stooges name here'".

We are never going to know the whole truth. All we will hear about is the cost. Harpers got himself a bag full of chips in the big game now, and he is one smart bastard who knows how to use them.

I can live with that if he does some good. Although I sincerely wish to see people fry over that registry.

All that money. Think of the good it could have done.

Politics.

Use all necessary force; yea, use overwhelming force. Let the hot steel fly. Down with Islamist jihadists.

Defend freedom and democracy. Carry the battle to the enemy!

Long live freedom and democracy! +

Outgoing commander: More bullets will fly
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CP) - Canadian soldiers fired their first hostile shots this week in an aggressive new mission in southern Afghanistan, and the contingent's outgoing commander says more bullets are sure to fly with deadly force. >>>
via cnews

Can anyone out there cite an example of Msulim/Arab violence that has not been justified by the media. Bonus if there's one that they actually condemned. I have been trying but cannot think of a single one.

Everyone seems to toss around the number 2 billion without realizing how much it really is.
Example 1 billion minutes ago would take you back to the time of Christ. Two billion minutes ago we could have been watching them build the pyramids.
My calculations may be a bit off, but I think you get the point. 2 billion dollars is one hell of a lot of money almost unimaginable. The average person could never spend it in a lifetime.

Anne McLennan is not an average person, thankfully.

Kate might have been joking, but the fact is that the reporter did provoke that response. She was disturbing the peace. If a woman's uncovered head is offensive to Muslims, why would she parade around that way? Is that not the definition of provocation -- to do something that offends someone when you know that it will offend them?

I'm sick of you right-wing idiots who have no respect for the fact that we live in a big world, with lots of different people. Show some respect for others for a change, and quit being such cretins.

Geee, excellent point, Libby Raoul...

I guess calling people you've never even met (and know absolutely nothing about) "idiots" and "cretins" is a terrific example of "showing respect for others"...

"Outgoing commander: More bullets will fly"

Say maz2, does Canada's defence budget allow for bullets to be actually used or are they expected to Barney Fife them?

And about the Turkish reporter, it is one of those right in principal things. If you know these wingnuts get all hot and bothered by a bare female head then tell her to cover up while reporting it. Report the news not become the news. Kind of like sending a black reported to cover a KKKlan convention, it's all about common sense.

First the AG reports on the gun registry. Get that one out of the way and then move on to reloscam. That's the baby that's going to raise a lot of eyebrows!

The post is sublime. In the end, it's never really been about the cartoons.

Texas, your remark re headcovering might- might- be applicable elsewhere, but not in Turkey. That kind of religious expression has frowned on for decades. The election of religious candidates depended a whole lot on non headcovering segments of society.

That said, there really is no 'moderate' Islam.

Libby Raoul: "If a woman's uncovered head is offensive to Muslims, why would she parade around that way?"

Because that's the LAW in Turkey. Women are not required to cover their heads, and are actually forbidden to cover them in certain venues. Before you vent your ignorance, check your facts. And your name-calling on top of your silly statement just removed any credibility that you might have had.

Bruce: Where'd you see that media release by Stockwell? Cant find it anywhere...

On a related note, the Iranian confectioners' union, as retaliation for the cartoons, has ordered that all stores change the name of a popular pastrie from "Danish" to "Roses of the Prophet Muhammad".

I can see it now..."Would you like a coffee with your Prune Rose of the Prophet Muhammad"? "And how about you, sir, yes you, with the Strawberry Rose of the Prophet Muhammad...some butter with that?".

So apparently it is not OK to draw a cartoon in the image of the prophet, but you can eat him with a beverage...strange...

Dude:

It's been running on the radio news hourly in Vancouver for the last couple of hours, haven't seen written accounts yet...last report had Day saying that the public "will be shocked" when the numbers are released

This is a link with some gun geistry news:

http://news.google.ca/url?sa=t&ct=ca/0-0&fp=43f59c48706f41e2&ei=_Q31Q4LIEsGOFvvClc8N&url=http%3A//cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/02/16/1446911-cp.html&cid=0

I think there have been a lot of valid points, however the bottom line is (I think) when in Rome... I would have thought a Turkish journalist might know better. I am guessing she won't do it again.
Largs -- Thank you for dumbing this down for me. UGGGHHHH. Forget jail time, I am all for the public stoning of those bastards.

Day was on Rutherford this a.m., and made some stmts re the registry. When will cdns and other western governments and media outlets make the decision that they will no longer let muslims and islam rule our way of life. Ezra should get copies of all cartoons etc published in muslim papers in the past several years to use in his defense, and publish them. Time for political correctness to go the way of the dodo and call these idiots what they are. Very unreligious people who will use any reason to kill. Tell those so called leaders in Calgary, when in rome do as the romans do, and quit using your hate as a religion, or go back to whereever you come from. Wonder how many of them are legal immigrants, and not terrorists in waiting. Once you see the cartoons, you will see how inoffensive they are. That is why islamofists don't want you to see them, to see how stupid they were to riot and kill, for nothing but sheer love of killing.

I think I now understand how the Romans must have felt with the "barbarians at the gates."

I guess talking to the Turks about the Armenian genocide that they did is so much not to be done as protesting a bunch of comics is so much fun and stonings too. Turkey should be brought to world Court for allowing stoning tohave happened.I'm -sure Canadian Mohammadans will protest the stoning

The reporter should know better. When in Rome...

I may be way out to lunch here but it seems to me that we are witnessing the prelude to a very large military or terrorist action in Europe. If we think back a few months to what happened in France. The younger, poor, immigrant (mostly Moslim) population in France went on a rampage that lasted for a week or two. Every night they rioted and burnt and destroyed property. I remember thinking at the time that this seemed far more coordinated than the government or the press was giving credit for. It seems to me that if someone was planning something on a large scale, then it would be prudent to try it on a smaller scale first. The rioting youth of France may have been just the first act in checking out how many responding numbers of police and security there would be for some future action. Perhaps a test to see how the government would react and how far they could be pushed before bringing out the military or calling for martial law.
What we are seeing in Europe and in parts of Asia is perhaps 'Act 2' of a similar 'feeling out' of Europe to find out about crowd control and security. It is no secret that these cartoons ran before, last fall in Egypt, and generated no violent response... so why now? There again, seems to be a lot of coordination in these events, bringing out the masses in large numbers from country to country day after day.
Call me a conspiracy monger but I think we are seeing the genesis of a much larger and more terrible plan that we are ready to concede or admit. Radical Facsist clerics are ultimately planning towards a world conquest for Islam. If politicians and governments around the world do not wake up to this fact as the Australians have, it will be for burkas all the ladies and three times a day towards Mecca for the men.
Freedom is a precious thing and the war for 'hearts and minds' that has been spoken about is an important one if these freedoms that we enjoy and treasure are going to continue to be handed down to the next generation.
Some time ago, I remember reading a book and the author compared our world view to one of those pictures where you strain your eyes to see "the donkey, the cart and the boy". Once you see it you lose sight of the rest of the picture and all you can see is the "donkey, the cart and the boy". So far most of the world is not seeing "the donkey, the cart or the boy" Hopefully they will in time.
There may be people who may laugh at this scenario but there were those who laughed at Hitler and wrote him off as well. We all remember what happened next. Hitler went out and tried to overwhelm with military might. What we are seeing is much more subtle and insidious than that but the goals are the same. Subjigation and control, with world conquest as the end goal.
Are all Muslims involved? Of course not. It is a very small but vocal segment of Islam that is perverting true Islam in an attempt to dominate all others within the faith. I am waiting to hear from those peace loving Muslims who are not in agrrement with those who are trying to impose Shiah law on all of Islam. It is time to speak up and let your voice be heard if you love freedom.
Sorry for the length
Maranatha

Mark,
I have been informed by various Islamic groups they will (regretfully) be unable to protest the stoning as they have Embassies to burn.

Libby- You wouldn't happen to be a right winger playing dress up would you? If so I advise that you put away the dress and step away from the keyboard.

Largs "Everyone seems to toss around the number 2 billion without realizing how much it really is."

None of us do. The human mind can only deal with such numbers as abstractions.

Mark "I guess talking to the Turks about the Armenian genocide that they did is so much not to be done as protesting a bunch of comics is so much fun and stonings too."

Orhan Pamuk arguable Turkey's greatest living writer has spoken out against the Armenian genocide. Such speech is against the law in Turkey but EU pressure has kept him out of jail.

Ironicaly enough that same author has written a very timely novel titled My Name Is Red. It revolves around a 16th century illustrator who lands in hot water over depicting the prophet. I just got my hands on a copy and its been an excellent read so far.

"Turkey should be brought to world Court for allowing stoning tohave happened"

Have you seen the size of the world court? You'll never fit Turkey in there.

"It is a very small but vocal segment of Islam that is perverting true Islam in an attempt to dominate all others within the faith."

From what I've read the perverts are practising 'true Islam' and the moderates are the ones who tweak the perception of Islam into one of love and peace.

Allah, paradise and the virgins are a fantasy and Mohammed was nothing but a common thief and rapist (although one with some forthought). Islam is a very dangerous entity and should be eliminated from the entire western world.

2 billion Moslems, thats about 10 bullets each.

Maranatha: moderate Islamics may be fewer than we think. Moderate Shias, Sunni, Druze, ???
I've been wondering to what all this is a prelude, terrorist attacks, or just testing our limits. Unfortunately, when it comes to chickenshit acquiesence, European and North American MSM, and governments, seem to have no limits.What was the old Liberal creed," if they vote Liberal, they're excused"? An example of the cowardly acquiesence I'm speaking of:
Several years ago, in Montreal, an Islamic gentleman was hauled into court for anally raping his eight year old daughter repeatedly over a period of time. The judge, a woman, let him off with an outrageously light sentence, due to "cultural differences". She remarked that "after all the child is still technically a virgin". I wish I was making this up. Everyone, it seems, is afraid to stand up to these heroes of Allah. Wonder what's next.

I wouldn't worry too much about Muslim Fanatics. They are going to push the wrong button just once, and blam!

I predict the moment the Israeli's find out Iran has enriched uranium, they'll nuke Iran.

People say that will be the start of the next big war...

somehow I don't think Israel, a country capable of taking on any 3 of it's neighbors at the same time, is going to waste alot of time wasting Arabs.

I think they'll blow the shit out of them PDQ. A nice fast dirty war.

Sooner or later some nation is going to say screw the optics and fuck the arabs... just a matter of time.

...Kate might have been joking, but the fact is that the reporter did provoke that response....

Sort of like when a woman would get raped, and the judge would decide to let the rapist go free, because it was obvious that the woman was clearly "asking for it" because of what she was wearing.

JM:..........Yup...stupids is.......

John N, Bruce, and C.J.:

Good ones!

Brian M and dmorris:
You could well be right, particularly in the Arab nations, there may be more extreme radical Muslims and they may be in a majority, I don't know. As for it being a very dangerous entity, there certainly are dangerous elements within the faith, which certainly lends credibility to your statement. I am not sure if this holds true throughout Islam however. It seems that the extreme radical leaders are bent on whipping up the masses into a frenzy so that they will do whatever they are told "is the will of Allah"... whether they are moderates or zealots that they are talking to. There is nothing that an ideology likes better than to have as its constituency those who will do what they are told without question or thought.
The present circumstance is a very serious threat as it has the potential to destabilize all of Europe and Asia and by extension, perhaps the world.
I wish that people would get rid of the rhetoric as it is not helpful. Staetments like 'Nuke 'em all' are not helpful or productive as it only tends to cloud the issues and inflame the situation even further.
As I said before... "where are the voices of the moderate, peace-loving muslims" we keep hearing about, as all of this is going on. As many have already said, these caricatures are not particularly offensive compared to much of the material that is out there that takes aim at Christians, Jews, gays, ethnic nationals etc. Are there no voices of calm or reason in the Muslim community? If there are not, then we are in bigger trouble sooner rather than later.
As for the MSM it is about time they stopped navel gazing or waiting for the next tidbit. It is about time for those with some moral backbone and jounalistic integrity, and there are some, to begin to take back their profession and do what is required to report the news. Some seem to want to "be" the news. Others seem to want to be spoonfed the next helping of news so they can in turn regurgitate it. What happenned to investigative jounalism and independent thought? Is is too much to ask for editors with the courage to leave what is "newsworthy" in the article instead of on the cutting room floor because they have been cowed or intimidated by the powers that be. Perhaps they are afraid that the next helping may not be forthcoming if they pass along something with some substance to it.
I am thankful for the blogging community and people like Kate who have the integrity to say what they mean and mean what they say!
There are no doubt some interesting days ahead.
Maranatha

The funny part is that you people are too chicken to face a muslim or an arab...And i am sure that most of you have never seen a muslim or even open a conversation with them..Ignorant is what i call you..Stupid is what i describe you..You people have nothing better than disrespecting muslims and their beliefs..But let me tell you something..Life is short! You will die but struggle will never end..Muslims don't give up for their rights..And they are taught to fight until the end..Life is too short for us "Muslims" to get bothered by ignorant people...It's easy for you to say that muslims and arabs are terrorits since you live in a country that provides you with everything except the truth..I find it funny how in school, or in public they teach us and talk about respect, honesty, courtesy, trust , freedom, rights and all this bull shit...None of these are used..Why don't you guys travel in the middle East and see for yourslef how muslims and arabs are treated ! It's funny how, when people try to protect themselves "Americans" call them terrorists! Why would a muslim, or arab allow anyone to steal their lands ? Why should any arab or muslim allow anyone to disrespect their beliefs, including their Holly Book? The west steals their lands, kill their people, disrespect their beliefs and their cultures, and you dare call them terrorists? What type of creatures are you? Why don't you put yourself in their shoes ! Imagine your house being bombarded, imagine your parents or kids being killed, imagine your country being occupied, and most importantly, imagine your religion being insulted. Why don't you guys take a change to read the Qoran and understand it and see what Islam is all about...Muslims are not terrorists! They are fighting for their rights and freedom..They are fighting for peace and respect!

Norma: Yada, yada, yada.

Several of my best friends are refugees from this religion of peace. Need I say that they are Christian Arabs? They were attacked without mercy and driven from their homeland. I've worked with members of every major religious faith, and gotten on well with them, and discussed their religions with them, as well. And the Muslims stand out in my mind because of their intolerant attitudes.

All over the Mideast, these 'peaceloving' people are butchering Christians, Hindus, Bhuddists, and each other.

How is the West to blame when Shias and Sunnis butcher each other? How is the West to blame for masked Muslims cutting off the heads of Christian Indonesian girls walking to school? How is the West to blame when Muslim mobs set fire to places of worship of other faiths, slit the throats of pastors, machinegun congregations at worship, or assasinate tourists?

Muslims waste too much of their time making stupid excuses for their unacceptable behaviour. When/if they mature enough to *own their faults* and deal with them, dialogue can begin. While some ass is waving an AK and screeching into your face, it's kind of hard to engage in a discussion.

The biggest enemies of the Muslims are...other Muslims. Wake up and smell the hummis.

However misrepresented we are by our Western 'leaders', there are those of us as dedicated to our faiths and way of life as any Muslim.

You don't hear much about us because we're an embarassment to the MSM and our spineless 'leaders'. But we're here all the same, and if you Muslims don't sit back and have a good hard think, one of these days your people are going to get to meet us in person, and you...won't...like...it!

For the rest of you on the list who want to get a whiff of the bogus "prophet's" followers, try this url: http://www.persecution.com/

Norma - what a lovely name!
When I click on it, tho', it is linked to www.intifada.com - intifada in Palestine.
Now, why weren't you honest about who you are so there could be some meaningful dialogue with you?

Norma: I knew and worked with several members of the Ismaili Islamic community in Vancouver back in the 90's.
They were what anyone would consider moderate, and did not support extremist activities. I've read the koran, and discussed it with Islamic persons. The people who crash planes into buildings, murder innocent people, and burn embassies are not worthy of the designation "defenders of the faith". They are fanatical, murderous criminals, and they defame Islam. As for exploitation of Muslims by Jews, infidels, etc., if you look into the history of any race or religion, you will find injustices perpetrated by stronger parties. That's human nature. Burning, looting, killing, over some absurdly tame cartoons is not the act of civilized people confident in their beliefs. Were we infidels to act in the same manner, you'd have your war to end all wars. Then we could all live happily ever after in the ashes.

Actually, Norma, I have travelled extensively throughout the world, including quite a number of countries in the middle-east as well as several "muslim" countries in SE Asia...

And my impression is this...what a great population of wonderful people,except for the the fact that in that population there are numerous imams who prey upon unwashed, uneducated,uncivilized, barbaric fanatics who are easily led to engage in outrageous attacks on civilized institutions...

If you wish to clean up your image...clean up your presentation...

Kate

You need to drop this Muslim thing. You are showing your true Prarie red neck WASP approach to life. You are in the minority on this one. Chill out for the weekend at the spa in Moose Jaw or come on up to Saskatoon and we can compare bull testicle notes.

John: people tend to overlook a religion and a group of people..:)..if one muslim happen to be a criminal, people judge all muslims as criminals...I am a muslim and i am not a terrorist ! I am a muslim and i am not a criminal ! Muslims and arabs are not MY people ...There are different types of muslims..there are different countries in the arab nation..I don't believe that Oussama BinLaden is any close of being a true muslim..But what i know is that the USA made him..The USA made Saddam Hussein..and now the USA call them terrorists...If Oussama and his men, or Saddam and his men are causing struggle all over the world, how is it muslims faults? I am a victim of their actions as much as you are...And for the record, Arabs or muslims would take care of their own problems when Bush and his puppies keep their noses out of the middle east's business...
Gellen: I didn't include the intifada's link to describe who i was..i posted that link for you to look at those innocent children images..In addition to that i didn't lie about who I was..I am not scared to tell you who i am..I am Norma, an Arab (Lebanese), Muslim living in the USA...
dmorris: It's rare finding people with your moral..you're right, those people crashing planes and so on are not muslims..they are not practicing Islam..they are practicing their own belief...if everyone knew what islam really was there wouldn't be all this miscommunication...Also, Freedom of the press allows these caricatures to be drawn however it doesn't mean that they had the right to do it..These drawings were insulting..i felt insulted...Even if they had posted caricatures of Jesus i would have felt insulted too...But the point is with all this tension going on in the world right now about arabs, muslims and terrorism, i saw no need for these caricatures to be posted...They have provoked a reaction..People which drew and posted them wanted to be free, then they'll have to deal with the consequences of their words and actions...

"the fact is that the reporter did provoke that response. She was disturbing the peace. Is that not the definition of provocation -- to do something that offends someone when you know that it will offend them?

I'm sick of you right-wing idiots who have no respect for the fact that we live in a big world, with lots of different people. Show some respect for others for a change, and quit being such cretins."

My question then, Libby Raoul is: if you are being true to your words, can I then assume you would support the cancellation of Toronto's gay parade? It's in the public streets and the participants know full well that many of the public find it highly offensive and provocative.

Or are you another liberal lefty who intellectually twists things to create a double standard? Just wondering.

mcdonald, nope, sorry bud, but I think you're in the minority. Good grief man, do you really support the stoning of a woman because she didn't have her head covered? Do you support riots because of some pretty harmless cartoons? Yes 1 or 2 of the cartoons were a bit offensive, but worthy of burning embassies and riots that killed people? Those aren't the actions of "a small minority of radicals" as everyone likes to point out and apologize for. That was the arab street, the people.
Hey, even after the planes crashed into the buildings I wasn't anti-muslim because that really was the work of a small bunch of nutjobs, but after watching muslims in other countries CELEBRATE that terrorism my mind started to change.
Must be nice living in a fantasy fairy land where everyone is nice, has lots to eat and give each other hugs every time they meet. This isn't SmurfLand. This is reality. Get with the program buddy.

Norma,
Thanks for entering into a dialogue with us. I take exception to being called names though. I can't see how it is helpful to be calling us "chicken, stupid, ignorant etc."
You seem sure that we know nothing of your life and faith. It may surprise you to know that many of us have good friends who are Muslims. We have agreed to disagree on many things but we have respect for one another. Bitterness and hatred will only breed bitterness and hatred. Like begets like.
I find it rather odd that you would call values like "respect, honesty, courtesy, trust , freedom, rights".. bullshit. Perhaps this is part of the problem. The things that we value the most are things that some are trampling under foot. Our forefather fought and shed blood in two world wars so that we might continue to enjoy these values instead of having to live in a repressive regime.
If you want to talk about those who have stolen your lands and kept you poor, you need not look any farther than the Sultans and Princes and dictators like Sadaam who have fattennd themselves on the childrens bread. You have all the opportunities and resources to make a better future for yourselves without the shedding of blood and the destruction of property.
I do not see all Muslims as terrorists but if you are honest you will agree that some are. Bin Laden and many who are following in his ways are set on death and destruction as a means to satisfy their own desires for power through fear and intimidation.
You said "Imagine your house being bombarded, imagine your parents or kids being killed, imagine your country being occupied, and most importantly, imagine your religion being insulted." Many of us don't have to imagine this. All we have to do is to look back at the events of September 11 2001 and what happened to the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon. Many parents were killed that day and many parents lost children that day!
If you wish to have a dialogue then at least be civil and honest in the attempt. You had mentioned in your post that we are taught everything but the "truth". Enlighten me. What is the truth as you have been taught or as you see it.
Maranatha

Came across this quote at: http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/

I think this sums it up very very well:

"Collective punishment is wrong. But only against us. If we decide to collectively punish you, then that's ok because you all deserve it. But don't you dare generalize all of us, no matter how much we generalize you. Oh and by the way, an attack on one Arab country is an attack on all Arab countries.. but please don't assume that means an attack BY one Arab country means an attack by all Arab countries cause that would be a logical falacy. Somehow.

So remember:
Generalizations of us by you: Wrong
Generalizations of you by us: Right

And don't you dare criticize our violence, cause then we'll kill you, and that'll just prove how peaceful we really are! Take that you american and zionist pig-dogs and your Democratically elected leaders that we hate and have caused the world to turn on you. But don't you dare criticise *our* democratically elected terrorist organization, because they were elected, so you have to like them, no matter how much we hate your democratically elected leaders - it's right to assume that the whole of America supported everything Bush stood for since as many as 50% voted for him, but it would be wrong to assume that every Palestinian supports everything Hamas stands for since only around 80% voted for them."

Maranatha i am just going to reply to what you said regarding september 11...U lived this fear for one day and until now, you talk about it..think of the middle east people who live this fear everyday of their lives and will have to deal with it until they die..and in fact their children will live the same fear ...And again to me Bin Laden is not a muslim..Also, while we're at it truth of our government..I thought Americans went to war for weapons of mass distructions..Where are they?..Saddam might have been really good hidding..How about the scandals of the jail that went on..wow..was that necessary?..Or let me add..What have Americans gain from it other then getting closer to Iran, killing people, ruinning the land, and winning their oils ! And as i said..where are the weapons again?

Norma wrote: "Life is too short for us "Muslims" to get bothered by ignorant people"

Well, yeah. When you strap on an explosives laden vest at 20, life is too short for not only you but for all the innocents you take with you.

Nonie Darwish is an Arab-American journalist, born and raised in Cairo and taught from kindergarten age to hate jews. Her father was killed in a clash with Israelis.

However, her reality was not in context with what she was taught. For example her brother, living in Gaza was diagnosed with a stroke, 10 years ago. His doctor advised he avoid the care in Cairo's hospitals and he was given superb treatment at Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem.

According to Darwish, her Arab culture has gone down the wrong road. Instead of developing mutually beneficial relationships with Israelis, they have chosen to create "an ideological generation that loves death as our enemies love life." As Ms. Darwish says, "If you mention Islam,people think of terrorism. And whose fault is that? Not the west's."

(Thanks to Robert Fulford)

www.arabsforisrael.com

Norma: etc,etc.

I understand the issues, and the opposing points of view. And I understand that there are Muslims who oppose the violence. HOWEVER: actions speak more loudly than words. People like you are accusing people like me of being bigots. If that is the case, what would you call the people who are burning and rioting?

The Islamic world needs to clean its own house, and acknowledge the negative effects of its own behaviour, before lecturing the rest of the world on manners.

The cartoons were fluff. The threats that preceeded them and the violence that followed them are the serious issues.

I detest the depictions of Christ and Christians in the MSM: "The Simpsons"; "The Last Temptation of Christ"; "Piss Christ"; "Jerry Springer -- the Opera". What do I do about them? Burn buildings? Vandalize churches, mosques, temples? Riot in the Hollywood hills?

I write letters, participate in boycotts, lobby political groups. Do I always get my way? No, most of the time. Sometimes, yes.

It boils down to this: adults use reason to promote their agendae; children throw tantrums. And as long as the Muslim world is more comfortable with tantrums *and excusing them as a legitimate form of behaviour*, they are NOT going to be taken seriously.

As has been said before on these lists, I say again: where is the Muslim condemnation of this childish behaviour? Their silence is deafening.

Neish...Not all muslims are burning those buildings...as a matter of fact i am not...Many of those people protesting might have their own reasons for taking these kind of actions..Either muslims, christians, jews, people have different personalities and life experiences..I didn't run through those streets yelling "death to Denmark"...My neighbor didn't ran through those streets burning buildings, but some people did...Why should i be compared to them? Why should i be insulted through my religion and belief? If people have problems with those people protesting then they should talk about these specific people..not "Muslims" or "Arabs"...

Randy i feel sorry for you to feel that way..And for your record, I have no brother in Ghaza..:)..Many members of my family were killed, rapped, tortured by Israeli militia...I don't blame the people..i just blame their government, president, and militia...Like i said..if one person was a criminal, i don't blame the whole race...And also, it's sad to see you talk about explosive vests since they have nothing other then these vests and rocks to fight back with...Check this out >> http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/91/897/10x7/twip_2002_0704_05.jpg

She was disturbing the peace. If a woman's uncovered head is offensive to Muslims, why would she parade around that way?

Because it's her democratic right.

First off, Turkey by constitution prides itself in being a modern Muslim secular democracy since the secular government imposition of Attaturk - founder of modern Turky.

This is a country applying for EU membership.

If you think that this woman deserved stoning by a mob of rabid fundamentalist idiots, you are the idiot. You are also stupid and a pathetic fascist in a free democratic society - what Turkey represents itself as.

You aren't required to have your head covered in Turkey. Read a newspaper or some history once in awhile.

Norma,
I look at the events of September 11 differently than those who were in Manhattan that day. I live in Canada and so have that perspective. I cannot say that I blame the USA for reacting the way that they did. War was declared on them on that day and it has forever changed the way that North Americans will view things in the rest of the world. It was the first major attack on this side of the Atlantic and was considered an act of war. Many innocents died that day.
As for the WMD in Iraq. The jury is still out on that issue and awaiting more evidence before coming in with a verdict. I am hearing lots of things about truckloads and planeloads of WMD that headed for Syria as the war began. Even if this is not true, Sadaam used WMD on his own people, the Kurds in another attempt at ethnic cleansing or genocide. For all I know the WMD may be buried in the desert. It doesn't matter to me. I don't know why you hide behind that issue as if to somehow justify the violence that is taking place in the middle east. Should Saddam still be in power in your view?
As for Bin Ladin not being a Muslim. The terrorist pilots under his command have all claimed to do what they did in the name of Allah. The pilots last words were reportedly a Muslim chant. What are we to conclude. If they were deceivers or imposters or pretenders the "Where is the outrage or condemnation of these people who are blaspheming" I don't see how you can have it both ways. If he is not a Muslim, then denounce him loudly so that the whole world can hear... including Osama. The way it appears to many of us is that he is a kind of "hero of Islam" fighting against the infidels. The rhetoric that Osama and Al Zawhari spout in their tapes are filled with Muslim sayings and quotes. If they are imposters then denounce them and expose them as such. As it stands right now, all Muslims are being measured against the Osamas and the radical clerics of the world. Only you as Muslims can do anything about that!
I read your most recent post to Randy. I am so sorry to hear of the trials that your family has been through. No one deserves to be treated like that. You are right in not holding it against the whole Jewish race. I hope they will bring the perpetrators to justice. I hope that all those who had a part in the despicable things that have taken place at Abu Gharib prison will face the full extent of the law. As in your case, it is not every American that is guilty for the actions of a few. The guilty should pay.
As for Iran. You brought it up. It is not helpful that the new president is denying the holocaust and is bent on having nuclear capability so that he can, with the help of the neighboring nations, drive the Jews into the sea. Where is the condemnation of this kind of rhetoric? The silence on some of these issues is loud!
Silence is consent. So long as good people remain silent, nothing will change. The situation will continue to escalate until there is more death and bloodshed. It doesn't have to be that way.
Have you talked to anyone in Iraq? Do they all hate the Americans or are there those that are grateful Saddam is gone and democracy is taking hold? I understand rebuilding is taking place.
It is said that so long as mankind continues to want "an eye for an eye" it will not be long before the whole world will be blind. Hatred only begets more hatred.
If the violence is to stop, it will be because voices such as your own in the Muslim community can be heard above that of the rioting masses.
Maranatha

Thanks Kate for hosting this discussion. There needs to be dialogue or we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of our forefathers who couldn't head off the coming storm in time.
Norma, I thank you for participating. I am sure that you must feel "ganged up on" but I respect you and your opinions even if I don't agree with all of them. You held your own and I hope to hear from you again. Feel free to email me if you would like to continue the discussion or post here so long as this thread is active.

John Neish:.. a straight-forward, descriptive post....to the point!

Norma:.... don't continue to plead you are 'not one of them'. You are seen as such because you haven't LOUDLY denounced the actions of those "non-Muslims" you speak of. You continue to speak as a victim. Most fundamentalists do...Muslim, Christian, etc. It helps to provide fuel for their drive, amongst other things. "You are known by the company you keep" or by those whose actions you refuse to comdemn.

As you are quite aware, this has been an on-going cultural turned political issue for many years. It even pre-dates the Balfour Resolution in the British Parliament.

* should read: Garry P. (early morning typing fog).

John Neish-

Have you looked at the video Kate linked to earlier this week about the two Danish Americans who showed up at an Muslim protest?

I saw people who were angry but who were demonstrating peacefully. At one point a man poked the Danish man's sign and he was quickly intercepted by his fellows who presumably (no audio) told him to calm down which he did. I was expecting to see an ugly scene but I was suprised by how peaceful it was, not even one shove. You'd easily see ten times worse after a football match in England.

You mentioned that you have made various efforts to complain about the way your religon has been depicted. Well so do Muslims but as soon as they do they're lumped in with embassy burners and murderers. According to the video Kate linked to the Muslims protesters were chanting "You respect me. I respect you.".

Besides being poor english how is that any worse than anything you have said in the defence of your religion?

Jose:......not to speculate ('cause we'll never know)...the video shows a female undercover police officer (proported to be) who spirits these two away from the crowd. While your descriptive is true, as it stands, I sensed a different energy building (am I just falling into the 'herd mentality' here?). The only way to be sure would have been to see the two continue their 'march' and to see if the tensions would build. I believe 5-15 minutes may have produced a slightly less-than-peaceful display. As I said...we won't know and it is not really fair to speculate (recent history is my only benchmark).

Cheers

OK, I have to comment.

I spent two weeks in a small town in Turkey. Women DO NOT cover their heads there. Most wear T-shirts and shorts, they work in shops, they sit in coffee shops and *gasp* chat with male friends, and in general behave exactly like women in the west behave. In fact, if you replaced the mosques with churches in Turkey you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a small town in Turkey with a small town in France or Saskatchewan, for that matter (well, OK, people generally have darker colouring and the building are generally made of stone, but you get the idea). To those of you who suggest that she was purposely provoking a riot, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!!!! Turkey is secular, and appears to be proud of it. She did absolutely NOTHING wrong in her society.

Norma, the reason we sterotype Muslims is because they keep blowing things up and chopping peoples heads off etc. Don't get mad at us. Get mad at them. And you only reinforce my stereotypes. You make excuses for suicide bombers. You say that's the ony thing they can do. I once worked with a muslim who said "God bless them!" and used your same reson. Muslims try to sound peaceful but darn it all they really resect those suicide bombers who kill jews and then they say things like "All Jews are legitimate targets if they are over 18." Very moderate indeed.

Norma,
I see this morning a (Muslim?) cleric has put a price on a human life offering cash (25,000) and a car to whoever kills the cartoonist who drew the prophet. Hmm There were 12 cartoons and 12 cartoonists so we now have death threats with rewards in the amount of 300,000 and a few cars. I guess life is cheap!
Talking to Randy, you had defended the practices of the suicide bombers with "it's sad to see you talk about explosive vests since they have nothing other then these vests and rocks to fight back with". It seems that you are very sympathetic to those who are doing these things.
Hmmm... I have noticed that in all the reports of suicide bombers, not once have we heard of a cleric or an Imam or a Moolah or even an Ayatollah giving themselves up in this way. It seems to be the young and vulnerable who are convinced of rewards to do such henious things.
I'm afraid that I cannoy understand this constant defense of those who are using fear and terror to repress their people and motivate them with "hatred towards the infidels".
Maranatha

Norma, I don't know why, but I still don't think you ring quite true. You did say you were living in the U.S.?

"Many members of my family were killed, rapped, tortured by Israeli militia..."
Israeli soldiers raping and torturing Muslim women? Educate me some more, please.

"If people have problems with those people protesting then they should talk about these specific people..not "Muslims" or "Arabs"...

Norma, what do you suggest they be called, since they are Arabs and Muslims? There is a new term being tossed about - Islamofascists. Is that more suitable for them, do you think?

Garry P.: "[Norma continues] to speak as a victim. Most fundamentalists do...Muslim, Christian, etc."

Years ago I wrote that the MSM were trying to discredit conservative Christians by establishing a linguistic equivalency between Christian 'fundamentalists' and rioting, terror-fomenting Muslim 'fundamentalists'. The word is the same, so many who only know Christian 'fundamentalists' from the organs of the MSM might be forgiven their error. So good, honest, hard-working Christian men and women are being tarred with the same brush as the murderous, rioting, bloodthirsty mobs in the Mideast. To put things into perspective: when you hear about a group of rioting Baptists setting fire to mosques and theatres and stoning unbelievers, we'll talk.

Jose: "Besides being poor english how is that any worse than anything you have said in the defence of your religion?"

First, there was every indication that that Muslim mob was heading to anywhere but a continued peaceful protest. You're the only one that I've heard come up with the idea that they were being pleasantly pluralistic with the two pro-Danish demonstrators.

Be that as it may, you're picking out *one* demonstration that *you* feel that you might be able to present as being peaceful. Were that in fact the case, I would have no problem with it. But what about the activities that we've all been talking about here? Have you forgotten them? Threats, riots, killings, burnings, and before it's done no doubt there will be at least one of the Muslim favourites: beheadings.

I suppose that my question to you would be: what's your point? If Muslims demonstrated as peacefully and Christians, then I'd have nothing to say against them. But...they're...NOT!

Norma: You may be a nice person, but...get a clue, okay? 8^)

John Neish:.... appologies for the unintentioned duality re: Christian fundamentalism and violence (wasn't noticed when I made the post and wasn't my intention). My point was the singular channeling of thought that can occur with the fundamentalist thought process, which, in my opinion, doesn't allow for necessary growth. I am quite aware of how the msm operates and don't fall for it. These are my opinions (right or wrong). I respect all peoples beliefs (while not always agreeing with them) but I'm seeing all-too-much "victimism" being tied to and transported by the politics of many a debate. Not that it doesn't exist....just that it weakens the argument...in my view.

Best regards

Garry P.: Way cool, Dude!

Kate: you've turned me into an addict, woman! I'm spending 'way too much time and energy on this list! But...bless you. I don't get out much, and this is providing me with an (antisocial?) social outlet.

All: search engines can provide interesting quasi-statistical information. We've been characterising Muslims as, among other things, whiners who have no sense of perspective. To wit:

A net search of:
"insult to islam": 90,600 hits
"insult to chistianity": 464 hits

Dave W -- thanks for the insight. I was picturing something similar to what we are seeing on the news pretty well daily. I did not realize Turkey was so different. I stand corrected re my comment "when in Rome..". So I suppose the problem I have is where is the voice of reason, the local heroes, the police, ANYONE. I keep hearing that it is a small % of radicals that are doing the demonstrating, so if they are outnumbered that badly, how the heck do they get away with it?

John Neish "Be that as it may, you're picking out *one* demonstration that *you* feel that you might be able to present as being peaceful."

I'm not cherry picking. I referenced that video because a) we can both easily access it since there's a link to it on this site and b) which I feel has been mischaracterised. Why not watch it for yourself.

And no I don't suggest they were being pleasantly pluralistic merely non violent. I was suprised when I saw it myself, judging by the comments on this blog in reaction to that story I was expecting to see something nasty.

Jose: That was kinda my point. If they weren't being violent, what's to object to? (Unless they're threatening to behead people or something like that.)

I had said, "If Muslims demonstrated as peacefully as Christians, then I'd have nothing to say against them. But...they're...NOT!" Their NOT demonstrating peacefully is precisely the reason that we're all having this discussion in the first place.

But...it looks like this thread has finally petered out, and I may very well be sitting here in the dark talking with myself. Fortunately, I'm very entertaining company. 8^)

I'm still listening, John. This one really bothers me, and I am really trying to understand it all.

Morison: What's the biggest problem for you?

I think my biggest problem with the whole situation is how organized and coordinated the "outrage" seems to be. It seems to me that the clerics are whipping the masses up into a frezy for some reason in many different venues and countries.
There is certainly the "hatred as motivation" aspect to this but it seems like there is an intent to test the waters or the limits, as it were.
Look at how carried away these things are getting in Pakistan. I just don't see these cartoons as being henious enough to draw the kind of respnse that they have drawn without more fuel being added to the fire.
It seems like there is an attempt to provoke an even greater response or offense than what they are already claiming, perhaps giving them justification for some futher action. Kinda like the bully at the playground who keeps pushing the other kid who is not spoiling for a fight and keeps pushing until he finally draws a respnose (fight). Then he claims afterward that the other kid threw the first punch so he was justified.
I think that there is more going on here than we can see.
Maranatha

With my being the primary caregiver for an octengenarian and a nonegenarian, my time is frequently spoken for, so my reposts might seem a bit tardy.

If anyone wants to discuss these issues offline, my email address is linked to my list name, so (if there isn't any objection from Kate) you could contact me directly. (I don't know if this is a breach of blog etiquette, but if it is, just ignore me.)

Because I receive so many emails in a day, if you write to me please put in the subject line, "John thinks Kate is a major Babe", and I'll notice it immediately.

Wow, you guys have been going on on this subject the whole night..Sorry couldn't reply since i've had work and some classes to attend..I came back to read the comments posted and I see no final answer to our discussion...This debate will never end...My job as a muslim is to defend my religion..Sorry if i offended anyone since that wasn't my intention..We all have different beliefs and opinions...And each one of us will stick to them...The way I see it is that things are going to get ugly...No one will settle...Each person on this planet will fight for his needs and wants...and as i believe..No one will win..Peace be upon you...And hopefully, Judgement day will solve all struggles..

Hi Norma,
Welcome back. The discussion is only over if there is no more participants. If you are still willing so am I.
I enjoyed your posts and your honesty about your point of view. As I said, I may not agree with everything that was said but I don't expect that you would agree with everything that I said either. However, I still believe that it is important for parties on both sides of issues to have a dialogue or there can be no further understanding on either side.
I agree with you that the way things are going, it is likely to get ugly. I am not sure that it has to be that way however if cooler heads can prevail and there can be a return to civility... on both sides. Obviously provocation is not healthy but neither is hatred and retribution.
I found your last post particularly interesting; "Each person on this planet will fight for his needs and wants...and as i believe..No one will win." Is that what it is all about; winning or losing. It seems to me that there is much more at stake here. Good governance and the protection of liberty and freedoms is not a win or lose proposition. It is something that each individual citizen works at one day at a time to try and make this world a better place to live. You seem awfully pessimistic about any chance of a better future. What is it that you hope about?
I'll be around for awhile yet this evening.
Maranatha

"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend"
Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968

Norma, there is hope and it is found in tolerance and love. Do you want to believe the lies and myths or do you want to do some personal investigation? You might find, as did Walid Shoebat (a former Palestinian terrorist), that the Palestinian leaders are deliberately misleading the people. Mr Shoebat has a webpage that you could visit and at least listen to his arguments. Since this hatred is taught from early childhood, it will not be easy for you I realize.
I say that knowing that in a period of about 10 years, German youth were reared by the Nazis to believe that everyone was their enemy, and that Jews were lower than the lowest animals and must be eliminated. When the allies captured them in the closing days of the war, these young teenagers were filled with hatred and contempt.

A brief quote from Mr. Shoebat's webpage From Hate to Love(www.shoebat.com):

“The occupation is in the minds of Children who are taught hatred.”

“Israel was the solution for the world’s greatest refugee problem that went on for two thousand years”

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”

“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”

“The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.”

“The Arab refugees are being used as pawns to create a terror breeding ground, as a form of aggression against Israel”

“The Arab refugee problem was caused by Arab aggression and not Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for their fate?”

"No one (Arab or Jew) has a "right of return". Jews who fled Arab persecution from 1948 to 1956 should have no right of return to Arab lands, and Arabs who ran away in 1948 and 1967 should have no right of return either. This should end all argument. Yet the Jews accept this judgment, while the Arabs reject EVERYTHING."

Norma, I pray your ears and eyes will be opened to enable you to see that there is a solution. Why would you want to think there is no hope for humanity and that it is only on Judgment Day that there will be a resolution?

On Mullahs and Fatwahs :

So now they are issuing death orders on Western cartoonists!??!

Goood grief. What a psychotic bunch of wackos.

Perhaps we should reply in kind? :))

Oh, no, Not on their Muslim cartoonists. But rather on those religious nutbars of theirs who issue these Fatwahs on our people. It would serve them right.

Norma:...."This debate will never end"..."My job as a Muslim is to defend my religion"..."Sorry if I offended anyone...since that wasn't my intention"...We all have different beliefs"..."And each one of us will stick to them...No one will settle"..."Each person on this planet will fight for his needs and wants"..."And as i believe"..."no one will win"..."Peace be upon you"..."And hopefully Judgement day will solve all struggles".

With all respect due to you.....HUH?????

Please re-read the previous posts and look for a common thread to the discussion/debate/'argument'......please!

Norma, it is possible that you won't be returning to this site but just in case you do I wanted to ask you about your Judgment Day reference. I wasn't sure it was quite as simple as it sounded so did some research and found this on the Middle East Research Institute webpage. I recommend it to you: www.memri.org

"If you read the column by Khaled Mash'al in today's Guardian, you will encounter something completely different from the old Hamas discourse. They used to swear, by the sword and the Koran, to annihilate Israel. But today he wrote things that are completely different. He wrote: "We have no problem with Israel, our conflict is not a religious one." Hamas was established on the basis of the idea that the conflict is religious. There is even a Hadith that says that Judgment Day will come only when the Muslims kill the Jews, and then every tree will says: There is a Jew behind me, Oh servant of Allah, come and kill him - except for the whatchamacallit tree, which is a tree of the Jews. This Hadith is popular among Islamists, and appears in all the Islamist literature. All the Islamist literature refers to the annihilation of Israel, and to the Islamists' divine promise to fight and annihilate the Jews, and to destroy Israel."

Is this the Palestinian Judgment Day you were referring to?

Gellen: I meant the Day of Judgement...I get my references from the Quran...As a muslim my job is to read the Quran and follow it...These are some examples of the Quran regarding:
Equatlity:[33:35] "For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for truthful men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward."...The Qur'an repeats over and over again that Allah only favors one person over another based on that person's awareness, consciousness, fear, love, and hope of Allah. All other criteria are excluded: gender, ethnic group, country, ancestry, etc.(MSA) Now, the Quran provides different rights and responsabilty for each gender. And personally i don't see anything wrong with that.
Peace:[2:136] "Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered." The text of the Qur'an makes it clear that Allah has clearly intended the focus of this way of life to be submission to Him. This entails submission to Him at all times, in times of peace, war, ease, or difficulty.(MSA) And i believe this is a reason for why some Muslims praise for the name of Allah in every of their actions. Which in fact are against Allah's will.
Prophet Muhammad: [3:144] "Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will you then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude."...Many non-Muslims believe that Muslims worship the Prophet Mohammad, however He is only a messenger to us, Muslims...God has sent This prophet as well as many others to spread faith in HIM. So publishing caricatures is not just an insult to Muslims but to many others...
"Muslim Terrorists":[17:33] "Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)".Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder anyone who is innocent of certain crimes.Hence, if any Muslim kills an innocent person, that Muslim has committed a grave sin, and certainly the action cannot be claimed to have been done "in the name of Islam.(MSA) I hope that as the general level of public awareness and understanding of Islam increases, people will keep "terrorism" and "Islam" separate from each other.
Religion: [3:85] "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." However, even though the Creator has clearly specified that no other way of life is acceptable to Him except Islam, he also commands Muslims to be tolerant of other beliefs.(MSA)
Day of Judgement: [22:1] "You people, have fear of your Lord. The catastrophe of the Hour of Doom shall be terrible indeed."
"21:48 We shall set up just scales on the Day of Resurrection, so that no man shall in
the least be wronged. Actions as small as a grain of mustard seed shall be weighed out.
Our reckoning shall suffice." To me humans can't judge each other, since each have a different opinion on what's rigth and wrong...Gallen I believe these couple verses from the Quran might answer your questions a little...

Norma:......like I suggested (but who am I to suggest).....look for the common thread in the previous posts...PLEASE...re: your last post....with ALL due respect...................HUH?....when you denounce those who don't reflect what you are trying to express...then, MAYBE, you will appear to have credability....until then.............
the rest is up to you...not those who direct you.

I only wish I/we could see some growth............... .

Norma,
Thank you for your post. No, I have not felt offended and hope that you have not either.

I still have a couple of questions unanswered. I am glad that you have felt comfortable in coming back into the discussion again. I appreciate the excerpt;
"Peace:[2:136] "Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered."
I was particularly caught by the part that you "believe also in that which Moses and Jesus received... and that you make no distinction between any of them." If I understand this correctly, you believe what many prophets over the ages have received and do not put more weight on one than another which would mean that the same weight would be given to revelation from Mohammed, Moses or Jesus? Is that right?

My questions still largely revolve around those who have hijacked your faith. You have told us on previous posts that Osama Bin Laden is no Muslim. If you believe this to be so, why is there no outcry from the Muslim community denouncing Osama Bin Laden and others who are quoting the Koran and doing evil deeds in the name of Allah. Forgive us, but it seems that Bin Laden and others like him have been lauded and praised as "hero's of the faith". There has been no loud public denunciation of him as a blasphemer for using Allah's name to further his campaign of hatred against the West. Where is the anger and indignation about what these men have done to bring dishonor on the Muslim Faith. I just don't understand the silence of the so called "moderate Muslim" population as he continues to command a Jihad in the name of Allah.
Maranatha

Garry P,
Hi Garry
Thanks for continuing to attempt to bring clarity to this discussion. I am glad that Norma has felt to join us from time to time, It sounds, like many of us, she is a busy lady juggling job and studies. I appreciate what you are saying to her about going back and looking for a common thread in the discussion. To be fair to her it is getting to be a long thread with many voices and it may not be as easy as we might think for her to do that at this point. It might be easier for her to have some specifics, brought forward to discuss before we lose this thread.
Thanks again for hosting Kate.
I am of the opinion that there has been very little of this kind of dialogue with those of the Muslim faith and it could prove valuable for us and for Norma if she feels to continue.
Thanks again
Maranatha

Well, it looks like this thread is still staggering forward. Good. There's been a lot of value covered here in the last several days.

All of the readers here, but most certainly Norma, should take the time to read, or at least scan, the following url:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/torture.htm

It deals with passages and practices in the Koran and Muslim history that are quite at odds with the image that Norma is painting. It is a scholarly examination of Islams human rights record, both for Muslims, and for their neighbours.

Norma, thank you for continuing the dialogue. It would be helpful if more moderate, or non-radical, Muslims would be willing to be as open.
As you say, "However, even though the Creator has clearly specified that no other way of life is acceptable to Him except Islam, he also commands Muslims to be tolerant of other beliefs.(MSA)"
If Muslims are commanded to be tolerant of other beliefs then one must conclude that many of the Immans have in actual fact highjacked Islam. More must be done by the, as we shall call them, moderates. The onus is on them to bring us back from the precipice. King Abdullah of Jordan attended a prayer breakfast in Washington recently and his voice must be supported by the Muslim councils in the various western countries. They have the strength, but don't appear to have the resolve. One sees no outcry. The west learned to its great sorrow that those of good faith must stand up to evil like Hitler and the Nazi regime. We too were silent in the thirties. Now Islam needs a Winston Churchill to stem the tide, or the world will witness an even greater Holocaust.

Maranatha:....greetings....I think if you look, again, at Norma's last post that her rhetoric has run out and she may not be back. It appears to be "The Last Post" (hear the bugle??). She hasn't left herself much more to say. Her next step would to now involve herself in a meaningful debate and it doesn't appear to be her desire. The rhetoric has run out and the paint is still wet in her corner.

We'll see..............

Garry P
I would welcome her back to the discussion all the same should she feel to join it. There are questions outstanding and points to be clarified on both sides. I had almost given up on her rejoining the discussion twice before and she came back each time. It seems to me that shr too is wanting to discuss these issues and has returned several times to do so which lends me to believe that she may check in again and if she does, Welcome back Norma. If she doesn't, there is still much that the rest of us can parse out.
Maranata

Maranatha:.....by definition, a discussion/debate is a two way street....I only see "one way" signs posted here. When the rhetoric starts to repeat it changes from translucent to transparent. Wish it wasn't so but.....................

Back..lool.sorry i don't find much time in my schedule to get online a lot...I read all commnents and i realized that we covered more than we were asked to...however, the real issue or argument might not have been answered...I would like to have you guys tell me what exactly your points of view on Islam...and what exaclty are you expecting me to discuss with you? Because seriously I think that i am getting lost through the conversation..

Hi Norma,
Thanks for checking in and taking the time to read through.
I can't speak for the others but I stll hav a couple of questions. One that arose from your post on February 18, 2006 10:42 PM I had asked it on a prvious post and will repeat it here:
You wrote: "Peace:[2:136] "Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered."
I was particularly caught by the part that you "believe also in that which Moses and Jesus received... and that you make no distinction between any of them." If I understand this correctly, you believe what many prophets over the ages have received and do not put more weight on one than another which would mean that the same weight would be given to revelation from Mohammed, Moses or Jesus? Is that right?

My second question I also posted in that same posting and will repeat ti here also:
My questions still largely revolve around those who have hijacked your faith. You have told us on a previous post that Osama Bin Laden is no Muslim. If you believe this to be so, why is there no outcry from the Muslim community denouncing Osama Bin Laden and others who are quoting the Koran and doing evil deeds in the name of Allah. Forgive us, but it seems that Bin Laden and others like him have been lauded and praised as "hero's of the faith". There has been no loud public denunciation of him as a blasphemer for using Allah's name to further the campaign of hatred against the West. Where is the anger and indignation about what these men have done to bring dishonor on the Muslim Faith. I just don't understand the silence of the so called "moderate Muslim" population as Osama and others like him continue to command and ask for Jihad in the name of Allah against the west.
I suppose that I have many other questions but will limit it to these two for now and perhaps have a follow up afterwards.
Maranatha

Garry P
I still find some value in dialogue as it seems to me to be the best hope and the key to understanding. As soon as we throw up our hands and say "there is no hope" or "it is all just rhetoric", then we have lost valuable opportunities for understanding one another. We also, have too many on this side of the fence that want to spew rhetoric as well. It is a shame that there isn't more of an appetite for a reasoned discussion when the opportunity exists for one. I am quite sure that I will not agree with everything that Norma says and I don't expect her to agree with me either in every instance. The point is we can know all kinds of things from the news, books, websites etc but how often do we get to sit down together and hear one anothers point of view. There are many things that I have a closed mind about because of the filter of my beliefs but that doesn't preclude me from wanting to understand where others are coming from even if it seems that the conversation has turned "one way or rhetorical". The fact that Norma has returned several times tells me that she too, in her own wat is searching for understanding. She puts an exclamation point on the last post I sent to you where she says "what exaclty are you expecting me to discuss with you? Because seriously I think that i am getting lost through the conversation..?" It has become a long thread and I can understand her not being able to pick out the "common thread" as there has been many things posted and contributed...some of which are a little divergent. Let us honor her request and be specific. Thanks for still taking an interest in the conversation and let's see where it goes from here.
Maranatha
Maranatha

Hi Maranatha,
Answering your first question: Yes, I make no distinction between any of the profets. Prove me wrong if i am , but I don't believe that Muslims were the cause of Jesus' execution..Rather Jews were..And also, Jesus is a messenger of God and didn't reveal to anyone that he was the Son of God or ordered anyone to follow any religion..After his execution people became Christians..Jesus only revealed what other Profets such as Profet Mohammad have tried to do...And Again, I don't make any distinction between the Profets...If Jesus was insulted, I would have the same effects that I had from the Cartoons of the Profet Mohammad.
Answering the second question: As I said and will repeat; I don't believe that Oussama is a Muslim...Oussama as well as many others has been using the Quran and Islam to reason his hatred for the US...However, keep in mind that there is a history between the US and Oussama Bin Laden...I am no one to judge which one of these two is right however, I can assure you that I am as victim as the West and other Muslims are..You asked about the anger of "Moderate Muslims" against these men ! What can we do ? The US, or Europe and many other strong countries have been struggleling finding these men and killing them...How are we, "Moderate Muslims" going to show our anger? If Other countries which are rich in people, weapons and power can't do anything for these men, how do you expect muslims, which are killed everyday and only have rocks to fight back with to show their anger against these men? And again Arabs lands are being bombarded, people are been killed, and Islam is been insulted by the West, Jews and so on...How do you expect "Moderate Muslims" to support anyone helping in stealing or distroying their countries....Some Muslims might be happy from Oussama's actions, not because they are asked by Allah or the Quran but because of revenge from those that are running their lives...

Hi Norma,
Thanks for taking the time to address the questions I asked.

You said "Prove me wrong if i am , but I don't believe that Muslims were the cause of Jesus' execution..Rather Jews were..And also, Jesus is a messenger of God and didn't reveal to anyone that he was the Son of God or ordered anyone to follow any religion"
I certainly agree that the Muslims had nothing to do with Jesus execution...As I understand Islam came much later. The Romans and the Jews of that time were responsible for Jesus death. As you may have guessed or I may have mentioned earlier, I am a Christian. I am wondering about the second half of your statement where You say that Jesus "didn't reveal to anyone that he was the Son of God". I believe that he did. When he asked his disciples who they thought he was, Peter, a disciple answered:
Matthew 16:16-17 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

In this passage, Jesus again confirms that he is the Son of God:
John 10:35-38 "...the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world (Jesus), Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."
***The works that Jesus did? Aside from many miracles and healings Jesus rose from the dead. Many, many times Jesus called God "My Father"

Mary was told by the angel before she conceived that the seed within her would be called the Son Of God Luke:1:35: "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

Even the demons acknowledged that He was the Son of God Matthew:8:29: "And, behold, they (the demons) cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

At the end of the last book of the gospels which tell of Jesus, John writes:
John:20:31 "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Norma, I hope you don't mind me quoting from the Holy Scriptures. I felt I needed to as it is central to the Christian faith to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the Son of God. I don't mind you quoting from the Koran as you have done as I am not as familiar with it as I perhaps should be... so I am learning.

I am encouraged to hear that you accept that Jesus is a prophet even as you believe that Mohammed was.

As for your answer to my second question, I for one certainly don't expect you to go out and hunt down Osama and his cohorts. Having said that, if it were possible for the Muslim community to deal with him either judiciously or execution style it would carry more weight than if the military might of the west eventually finds him and deals with him. I think what I expect or think should happen is that there should be more vocal outrage with the extremist or terrorist element. Why not, as Muslims, loudly denounce these evil men as blasphemers who are bringing dishonor to Allah and Mohammed. You might say "I am only one voice". Make your voice heard in your community. That is all we are saying. The Muslim community cannot have it both ways and expect us to be accepting. As long as the extremists are louder than you are and you continue to be intimidated by them, nothing will change and you will not enjoy the respect of the community at large. You cannot have Osama as a hero on one hand and a villain on the other. The terrorists and extremists have given Islam a black eye and it is not getting any better because good people like yourself and those of your faith community are not denouncing them. This is my opinion.
I do not see how you can feel all will be sorted out on the "day of judgement" off in the future. I believe God wants us to live our lives now and make a difference here and now while we have breath.
If a Christian extremist element began to do terror in the name of Jesus, I would denounce that person or persons because he/they would be bringing disrepute to my Lord by their actions and statements. We gain credibility and respect by what we do and the way we walk in this life. What will happen after the judgement I cannot worry about that, I must love my neighbor and love my God while I am here now.
I asked you once about hope. Do you have any hope that things will get better? Do your family that you talk to ever speak of hope? How do you see the future?
Sorry for the long post but thank you for your candor and honesty.I look forward to hearing from you again
Maranatha

I'd like to add on the topic of Jesus being the Son of God...
"He [Jesus] was no more than a servant.We granted Our favor to him,and we made him an example to the Children of Israel....

When Jesus came with clear signs, he said,"Now have I come to you with Wisdom,and in order to make clear to you some of the points on which you dispute.Therefore, fear Allah and obey me.

For Allah, He is my Lord and your Lord,so worship Him.This is a Straight Way."

(Qur'an: Al-Zukhruf 43:59, 63-64)

Of all the profets, Jesus is probably the most writen about in the Quran...Muslims always speak of Jesus with respect and revere Jesus as a Profet, not the Son of God...Now, this is the reason why each religion has its own Holly book...we somehow have the same story but interpreted in different ways...And as Christians, Muslims, Jews and so on..our job is to support our book and believe it..
And as of Hope....Please define "HOPE" !
I would believe in hope if I had the power to change people's interpretations...I am not a member of those causing struggle in the world..When I say those, I include the West, East, South, North, Muslims, Christians, Jews, White, Black and so on..Once these people straighten up their actions and provokations, then I can tell you that I see hope..But as it looks like..From what we've seen and witness, hope is far from being in my dictionary...

Norma,
Define Hope...Hmmm, big subject. Our scriptures tell us that hope is one of the enduring things, something that abides and remains 1Cor 13:13 "And now abides faith, hope, and love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." In another place we are told that hope doesn't disappoint us.
Hope is the promise of a better tomorrow. Even if all things are out of our control, we can still hope because we know our Heavenly Father holds tomorrow and we trust in Him. His ways are higher than our ways and he has all things in His control. Because of that I can trust safely in Him and this gives me hope for tomorrow and the ages to come.
As for Jesus, I believe that he came, born of a virgin, proved His divinity with many infallible proofs and died on a cross for the sins of all mankind. He rose again the third day triumphant over death, hell and the grave. He is the long promised Messiah not only to Christians but to all who believe and accept Him. As I said before, in the Christian faith, one of the central truths is the divinity of Christ. He is the Son of God. He has promised to return and appear to all those who are waiting and have made themselves ready for His coming. In a sense, he has already come a second time as he has come to live and abide in the heart of each one who accepts Him as their Savior.
So on the point of Jesus as the Son of God, we will have to agree to disagree, for you see him as a good teacher and a prophet, nothing more, nothing less. I see Him as so much more and the reason for my hope.
Thanks once again for taking the time to chat. I have enjoyed it and have learned a few things. I have many more questions but I think I will leave it at that for now. Feel free to be in touch if you have questions or comments. Peace be with you.
Maranatha

Norma,
I don't know if you will have time to return but if you do I would like to give you a website that I hope you will visit. It is www.levitt.tv/
This is the page for his internet TV programming and you can hear recent programs with guest Ibrahim Abdullah who was born and raised in Michigan and became a Palestinian terrorist.
On the same page, you can find Muslim programs in the archives with guest Walid Shoebat who was also a Palestinian terrorist.

Norma:...with all respect, I wish you a life of peace and harmony. But your silence is deafening. I believe your silence is due to the fact you are thinking about things. This is good. Let peace enter your heart.

Best regards.