I need a new TV - can I move there? temporarily?

you don't even need to move there! i'm sure there will be a bus to take you there and swear you in.

Stuffing the ballot box; that only happens in the third world countries.

Oh hang it all, welcome to the third world!

Ouch Hans

Unfortunately for you, your leader is, by his own admission, an unprincipled liar.

During a leaders' debate, Stephen Harper argued that the solution to MPs' floor-crossing was not an outright ban, but a series of questions instead:

"Get to know your candidate; get some sense of who they are and where they stand, and whether they have integrity."

Fair enough, except that we now have concrete evidence of Stephen Harper asking his followers to throw their candidate's integrity to the winds should it come to the possession of power.

Stephen Harper is a power-hungry liar.

There is no evidence to the contrary.

Do not feed the trolls.

Are Paul Martin & Jack Layton power hungry liars too Stephen? There is no evidence to the contrary. Well?

Wow, Stephen, you're just an idiot.

There's no evidence to the contrary. None?

Hell, there was some evidence that Paul Martin wasn't an unprincipled power-hungry liar. I do remember him telling the truth on occasion.

So, Stephen, Stephen said instead of an outright ban the solution is a series of questions on getting to know where the candidate stands and if they have integrity.

Uh, do you not realize that Harper had days of talks with Emerson about exactly these issues - and this David Emerson's integrity and stand on the issues in the trade field in which he was already working as a cabinet minister are known commodities?

I hate to say this, but you're actually a stupid person.

You can reply if you want, but you're so absolutely dimwitted that it is unnecessary and pointless.

They didn't even offer me a bottle of hooch and a ride home, when I registered and voted for our local Conservative member!?!

Dave,

We all have to make sacrifices. Think in strategic terms. A GST cut will make your hooch cheaper! That's why I voted Tory. Now all I need is kids for beer money.

Chris, you said:

" this David Emerson's integrity and stand on the issues in the trade field in which he was already working as a cabinet minister are known commodities"

I don't disagree that Emerson is a good person for the job.

I'm upset for the people of Emerson's riding who basically had their votes stolen. In that riding, the race was not between a blue grit and a conservative, it was between a blue grit and a dipper. I think democracy was not well served.

Had Emerson run on a platform that said, "I will do everything I can to serve you, my constituents, no matter what because I am a non-partisan." then his actions were justified.

But he ran against the Conservatives and Harper.

Had he chosen to sit as an independent, stating he was recruited by Martin to be a Martin Liberal and now that he couldn't be, he preferred to serve as a non-partisan, I wouldn't have minded.

But he changed sides. As an independent he could have been a cabinet minister so we would have still had the benefit of his experience and Vancouver would have had the benefit of his influence in Cabinet.

Personally, my choice would have Harper ask Emerson to sit as an Independent and serve as Parliamentary Secretary for International Trade. After a suitable period of time, he could then move into cabinet unless an election is forced before hand.

Instead, we are left with a Minister who seems to believe that the ends justify the means.

And we have a Prime Minister who believes the same.

Chretien believed the ends justified the means, look at his Gomery testimony.

So that's why I feel angry, robbed of my vote (I voted for change) and scared. If this is the behaviour Harper encourages on day one, what will he condone after a few years in power?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Y'all thought it was going to change? Just wait until the conservatives snub the west once again. Then you'll understand how this country really works. The key word is DYSFUNCTIONAL!

It was stated yesterday that the voter turnout in some polls was 135%--now that is a turnout, eh--like a Liberal turnout!

Chris you are way off. This was a monumental mistake. I have voted conservative or reform all my life. Harper just lost my vote. I can only imagine what the soft center who voted for him thinks. The number one reason he got elected was to bring back integrity in the process. So many people told me Harper is the same as the liberals, electing him wont change anything. I guess they were right.

Let the dancing around David begin. Do we court him, do we shun him, oh my the choices. Power feels so good though...

Harper's principles were (irreparably?) compromised in rewardin/ecouraging floor crossers and he has lost some credibility...this is always the case when someone campaigns on the naive premise of keeping one's high principles in a snake pit. No matter WHAT Harper does from here on in he will be pegged as a hypocrite (if even a minor one)...much the same as Manning was always characterised as a fallen decon for symbolically rejecting the arrogance and trappings of power by joking about turning Stornoway into a bingo hall...then moving in as the opposition leader....sadly his credibility with the media/public was forever tarnished.

Personally speaking, as someone who has worked for over 15 years to get a western PM in the PMO and ethical/democratic reform on the political agenda, I'm disappointed. There was NOTHING so important in the callow symbolism of having Vancouver or Montreal representation in Cabinet that was worth the trade off of the leader's personal credibility...probably the worst political decision of Harper's career so far ( and these were few).

Also on a personal level, ethics are always more important tahn politics to me as it is with most western conservatives. Harper will have to regain some lost trust in his own constituency.

Frankly I don't give a wet flying F@#$% what outrage over this matter festers with liberals...their moral outrage is as disengenuous as their integrity...the liberal creed are permanently compromised at an agenda level and their political history proves it. It isn't the hollow braying from these political street walkers that is at issue...It is conservatives who have been compromised here as our political agenda and ideology places principle and ethics above vulgar power politics.....so the jury of peers is out. The only possible way for Harper to redeem his decicision is for the compromise taken on Emerson to prove-out as serving the higher cause of public service. If Emerson merits the trust Haprper had in him to quickly and satisfactorally resolve the softwood dispute....unlike BS who was gifted with cabinet position far beyond her abilities and no expectation to perform.

The Jury watches

Welcome to politics ladies. Quit yer moaning and realise that PM Harper stayed consistent with his previous comments. Even after Belinda, he never outright denounced switching. I think it is telling that Winston Churchill crossed over three times in his career.
It was a bold move that rocked the Liberals and knocked them off their footing. Notable absence of Liberal leader Paul Martin. Once again Dithers made the wrong choice in trying to grasp onto any fleeting remnants of power.
enough

Did churchill ever do it for a cabinet post?

"I hate to say this, but you're actually a stupid person.

"You can reply if you want, but you're so absolutely dimwitted that it is unnecessary and pointless."

What keen insight! What a brilliant refutation! What class!

I stand amazed. And equally so at seeing W.L. Mackenzie Redux and Stephen on the same side. Strange bedfellows, indeed.

So you justify installing non elected cab-mins and appointing a party apparatchick to the senate on his first day in power as "just politics". ...all this when we have a major policy plank for democratizing parliament and electing senators I can see there's another one who just doesn't get it. Politics are not GOOD ENOUGH for this nation if it intends to survive. Public apathy with "politics" is what brought us to the brink. Why settle for politics when statesmanship is an option...all it takes is ethics and personal integrity.

I don't expect we will be able to criticize gross Liberal compromise and broken promises any more ( at least with any personal integrity) as what liberals practice is "just politics" also.

It reminds me of the old ladies that go to parliament and are "shocked, just shocked" by the behavior of parliamentarians. It is not a high school debating club with the teachers managing decorum and behavior.
There is politics as usual and then there is the politics of running a government in the real world. This by no means goes against what PM SH said in the past. Plus, we gain a respected cabinet minister, he keeps his portfolio and it makes solving the softwood crisis that much more easier.
The wonder always was that Emerson was a Liberal in the first place.
enough

It is so laughable....supposedly long-time conservatives ready to bail at the first ice-berg. Did Mr. Harper make a couple of mistakes with Emerson and Fortier? Maybe, maybe not. Politics is not for the weak-kneed wussies who are scared now, it is for the bold. These moves were BOLD, whether they were smart or stupid will be determined by the performance of the indivuals involved.

Most of you appear to be on the wrong thread.

I'm a Conservative because I believe in Conservative principles, and because I believe that they're the best of the available choices; for Emerson to screw over the people that voted for him just so he can be the Minister of Funny Hats is WRONG, just as WRONG as it was for Duhlinda to screw over the people that voted for her so she could be the "Minister for Democratic Renewal". To claim otherwise is hypocrisy.

I have voted conservative or reform all my life. Harper just lost my vote.

So, where is your vote going, then? Gonna start voting Liberal out of spite, or your friendly neighbourhood Marxist-Leninist?

I'm not thrilled with the appointments either, but unlike what the Libs did with Belinda! it's neither illegal or contrary to the practice of responsible government. What's done is done, so let's see how this cabinet proves itself first, and not add our tripwires to those set by others.

A recount doesn't change the ballots the Liberals bought, coerced or stole - another vote should be held in that riding.

So, how far can a "Judicial Recount" go? Is it just counting the ballots again? If the judge finds ballot boxes that appear to have been stuffed, can anything be done? Can the judge be allowed to state an opinion about the credibility of the vote?
If so, what are the options? Can a new vote be ordered?
Are there even any rules or precedents for this kind of situation?
Identifying a problem is useless unless you can fix it!

How did the judicial recount story get turned into a troll fest of bitching about the defection of a Liberal whore?

Reading between the lines of what I've heard over local media, I believe the judicial recount is just one of the required steps they must take before presenting the evidence they have to push for an investigation into voter fraud.

Rules about election fraud....
Election fraud is a Crime someone needs to make a complaint the RCMP investigate and charge those involved.
Rerun the election for that riding.

Ther is absolutely no reason why Canbadians should put up with this BS.

"How did the judicial recount story get turned into a troll fest of bitching about the defection of a Liberal whore?"

I guess because the subject is electoral fraud.

The irony of politics. If your decision makes 90 % of people happy and 10 % "not so happy" , sooner or later you will have everyone pisseed off with you . The difference between Stronach and Emerson is that she had no track record in politics. David Emerson does ! He understands the complexities of the softood lumbar dispute and he is from a province where it has the biggest impact. If he now has the ability to solve the issue with the backing of a government that has a better relationship with Washington, it will be looked upon as a masterstroke and the population of BC will be eternally grateful and vote Conservative in the next election. (Maybe Quebec as well)

105 and climbing. Do I hear majority by Easter?

A judicial re-count, unless it can invalidate the results of any polls will not change much.

Jeremy Harrison must feel like he has knives, or perhaps arrows sticking in his body, making him look like a porcupine.

Incredible.

If you read John Diefenbacker's auto-biography, he writed on similar actions in northern Saskatchewan back in the past.

The more things change, the more things stay the same.

TIZ

TIZ - I believe the judicial recount is required because they need to demonstrate that illegal activity at a poll (if confirmed) actually changed the result of the election. Last thing they need is for a poll to be thrown out as tainted, only to face a judicial recount of the remaining ones.

(Caveat - that's must my best guess take on the situtaiton - If someone with more knowledge of election law wants to chime in, please do.)

emerson is rich, he does not need money, he ran as a liberal hoping to do good for the country. Liberals lost, he could not do good in opposition, he acted for the good of the country by switching, the country will benefit.
I do not think he was happy with the liberal ethic to begin with. He is a doer not a political philosopher. I am not feeling good about the switching process but I have wondered why principled people did not switch more often when they found too many of their fellows were rapscallions. Yes, dyed in the wool idealogues will feel betrayed but we do vote for the man not the party. Conservatives have a knack of eating their young. Lets give some thought on this thing before cutting the umbilical. Perhaps Harper was wrong, perhaps he was very very right. Lets remember that power is almost the total name of the game. Did not we dump Manning to get power thru Stockwell, and it was 100% conservatives that did the dumping. Did not Reformers vote to change their name and platform to entice conservatives to join the Alliance just to get power? and then amalgamation with conservatives for ditto? All promoted and voted for by conservatives. Now we want to hang Harper for securing power, humbling the liberals, and getting the best man for the job serving Canada. Boomer.

There is also Edmonton Center. How many others across Canada? Then there's all those inquiries into Liberal corruption scandals. Harper has a very full slate. I wonder if there will be a Liberal Party left after he's finished? I notice Kinsella wants to be a backroom organizer again.

emerson is rich, he does not need money, he ran as a liberal hoping to do good for the country. Liberals lost, he could not do good in opposition, he acted for the good of the country by switching, the country will benefit.
I do not think he was happy with the liberal ethic to begin with. He is a doer not a political philosopher. I am not feeling good about the switching process but I have wondered why principled people did not switch more often when they found too many of their fellows were rapscallions. Yes, dyed in the wool idealogues will feel betrayed but we do vote for the man not the party. Conservatives have a knack of eating their young. Lets give some thought on this thing before cutting the umbilical. Perhaps Harper was wrong, perhaps he was very very right. Lets remember that power is almost the total name of the game. Did not we dump Manning to get power thru Stockwell, and it was 100% conservatives that did the dumping. Did not Reformers vote to change their name and platform to entice conservatives to join the Alliance just to get power? and then amalgamation with conservatives for ditto? All promoted and voted for by conservatives. Now we want to hang Harper for securing power, humbling the liberals, and getting the best man for the job serving Canada. Boomer.

ah, if the last poll can be entirely thrown out, "discarded" or "set aside", that'll do it.

If those fine folks up there don't like the result, maybe a return to door to door enumerating is the best that can come of it. Perhaps Elections Canada needs some fresh thinking, and some purple finger dye.

Sadly, I no long have to show my id when I purchase wine... we generally accept this, I think we can learn to live with it for democracy too. It's that important. See how many posts for the past few days regarding Mr.Emerson crossing the floor, we all have an opinion here. In all, more than 400 posts, some trolling, some harsh words perhaps, but plenty of thought, and insight, free of msm spin. Thanks to all.

Most Canadians don't really care about party switching like that of Emerson. If they did then Brison, Dr. Martin, and Paris I mean Belinda Stronach would not have been re-elected. I found it a bit sleazy too, but it will probably benefit the Conservatives in the next election in Vancouver and Montreal.

Notice how Kate doesn't mention that those allegations of ballot-box stuffing were not serious enough to actually mention in court? Jeremy Harrison's lawyer didn't mention them to the judge, just adding errors.

first,all my fellow conservatives bemoan the election of a minority gov't.(loss of their vote) then they abhor the posting of mr. Emerson to a cabinet position (again,loss of their vote..) jeezus people! PMSH has not even sat as prime minister yet and you are abandoning ship like so many wet rats..Give your head a shake

I am sure that PMSH knows what he is doing,and you should let him get on with the job.Has he abandoned your (or my) principles? I doubt it...

Better your efforts put toward making sure the culture of corruption(that allows things like voter fraud in elections..) do not happen again.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this thread about the recount?

A good thing. Had enough of liberals in both our countries attempting to steal elections (Al Gore and then Gregoire)

Actually, I do apologize for posting my criticism of Harper in the wrong thread. I should have posted elsewhere, so I won't continue to de-rail things beyond offering this apology for the mis-post.

It's not the counting of the votes that angered me (although the fact that that's off too is depressing)... it's the fraudulent votes that were "cast" and bought.

Here are the correct answers to the questions arising from the North Sask election results:
- More than 100% of eligible voters voted. Yes, when people are not on the voters list they still get to vote IF they show ID and have someone on the voters list vouch for them. In First Nation comunities, many people were not on thevoters list since they had not voted in previous elections. The reason for scrutineers are at the polling stations is to keep an eye on that kind of thing. Does Harrison have any evidence of wrongdoing with this? Obviously not, as none was presented to the judge. Conclusion: Harrison is making allegations for which he has no grounds, and is trying to smear Merasty who motivated the Aboriginal vote.

A TV was raffled on voting day in Ahtakakoop. It was an incentive to get people out to vote. Just because its not done in Arcola Sask, does that make it wrong? EVERYONE who voted on election day got to enter. Its not against the law, says Elections Canada.

Buying votes? Harrison has shown no evidence, only empty allegations to get you all excited.

Bussing to polling stations? so what? Many Aboriginal people in the north don't have cars.
This isn't even an allegation of anything illegal. Again its just to get you all excited by Mr. Harrison.

The reason for the recount is because the judge found that one of the deputy returning officers had not counted some of the unused ballots. This piece was not even presented by Harrison's lawyers. The judge in fact found no evidence to suport the affadavits presented by Harrison. (This according to todays Saskatoon Star Phoenix.)

So, based on that minute a technicality being the actual reason for the recount, I doubt the result will change.

If, however, Harrison does win on the recount, I wish him the best. I think, however, he will have a hard time ever getting another Aboriginal vote out of northern Sask. This because he seems not to understand the communities, and has ridiculed them, it seems, just for voting.

Shame on the rest of you for jumping on the Indian bashing bandwagon.

A judicial recount only looks at the count of the physical ballots, and does no determine whether fraud was present. That requires a specific complaint. Perhaps the RCMP in that case, rather than Elections Canada?

- More than 100% of eligible voters voted. Yes, when people are not on the voters list they still get to vote IF they show ID and have someone on the voters list vouch for them.

One poll has more than 100% turnout while the voter turnout for the riding is 61.2%. Real motivated poll.

http://enr.elections.ca/ElectoralDistricts_e.aspx

"One poll has more than 100% turnout while the voter turnout for the riding is 61.2%. Real motivated poll."

So what?

In 2004, poll 148 in Churchill River (Shoal Lake-Ruby Lake) had an 84% turnout (214 votes out of 255 registered electors), with 205 votes going Liberal, 3 going NDP, 1 going CPC, 1 going Green, and 4 going Independent: that's 96% Liberal votes, with the remaining 4% divided among the others. And, I should add, a turnout much higher than the riding average.

Also, there were several other polls in 2004 where Harrison received 0, 1 or 2 votes out of a possible pool of 100 or more people who cast ballots in those polls.

Given these facts, it's not at all inconceivable that a serious organizational effort in some polls could turn out a) more voters than appeared on the list of registered electors; b) an overwhelming vote in favour of a single candidate.

In 2004, poll 148 in Churchill River (Shoal Lake-Ruby Lake) had an 84% turnout (214 votes out of 255 registered electors), with 205 votes going Liberal, 3 going NDP, 1 going CPC, 1 going Green, and 4 going Independent: that's 96% Liberal votes, with the remaining 4% divided among the others. And, I should add, a turnout much higher than the riding average.

Oh well, there you go. It happens all the time.

It must be the culture.

To "Ol Hoss"

Here's the way it is for some polls with high First Nation population at election time. You live in a community that has no post office. Your mailing address is at a community miles away from where you live. Because of that, you show up on a voters list miles away from the closest poll. On election day, you go to vote and you are not on the voters list. But you are prepared with ID, and get someone you know to vouch for you. The conservative scrutineer gives you the eyeball as you enter the voters booth, but he can't do anything because you've provided everything you need to exercise your right to vote. You vote for the candidate and party that you believe will do the best for your issues which are those of Aboriginal rights. That happens to be the Liberals, it looks like the Conservatives want to assimilate you, and the NDP don't have a chance.

After that, you are happy that you voted. When it turns out your vote did make a difference you are proud. When the Conservative starts slinging mud at you just because you voted you feel sick to your stomach. But you are used to it because thats pretty much the way things are.

The Conservative scrutineer actually looked at you? Scarrry.

Have you ever actually read a treaty?

Hoss - yes I have read Treaties - what is your point?

I am glad the Conservative scrutineer gave me the eyeball. This means he was there and has to witness that the voting was legitimate. Therefore, no evidence for Harrison's allegations.

Little late entry but "From North Sask", I have been basically rasied on the res, the sad cold hard truth is that elections have been rigged in our communities for as long as I can remeber, through the bottle threats and plain old cheating. Band election are the worst, then you have all the families fighting. I am a social worker and I work on numerious reserves and have seem this action over and over. I am sad and very frustrated with this situation, regardless of the political group. IT IS WRONG. I am sick of the "race card" We must look into this matter regardless of native or not. How dare you try to make this comment- Shame on the rest of you for jumping on the Indian bashing bandwagon. Have you spent anytime on a res, do you know how the internal politics work, it must be stopped. If you knew anything you would know that 100% is absurd, regardless of a TV raffle. You who stand behing the race card infuriate me, we are a strong nation and can stand up for ourselves and as an accountable nation we must stand trial for our mistakes as well