February 5, 2006

The Collaborators

(moved back to top with updates)

Jeff Goldstein;

[S]uddenly, free speech is not a universal right worthy of the crafting of puppet heads and the defacing of Starbucks’ windows, but instead is a culture-specific gift that needs to be filtered through the religious precepts of the culture of the Other. Unless, of course, that “Other” happens to be, say, Evangelical Christians. In which case, such extremists MUST BE SHOUTED DOWN with free speech.

Pretzel logic, clearly—and the dilemma that is at the root of an incoherent philosophical system that favors the sociology of group identity over the universality of individual rights. Ironically, George Bush, each time he argues that freedom is universal, is acting in a manner far more progressive than self-styled progressive activists.

Again: note the crux of the debate, as framed by the voices for Muslim protest, and take care to listen for the broad-stroked rhetoric—usually more carefully crafted by those who have perfected its vocabulary, cadence, emotional appeals, and key words—of the “tolerance” movement, the justificating force that cynically underpins all identity politics:

"The 12 cartoons ... have caused an uproar in the Muslim world and drawn a new cultural battle over freedom of speech and respect of religions."

Translation: “Free speech is good so long as it tolerates our right, as an identity group, to dictate which free speech is authentic and allowable. Otherwise, y’know, we get to torch shit.”

You'll see some (though not all are guilty) of that pretzel logic on display here, including an admonishment to those republishing cartoons that we are "not being helpful". One suspects that, if sent back in time some 60ish years, such people would have been completely at home in "occupied" France.

Damian Penny has more on these voices of surrender. (At this rate, how long will it be before we begin to hear calls demanding Salman Rushdie apologize to his offended Islamist "critics" ?)

Sunday Morning Update

Another day, another embassy torched. "It was not immediate clear if the building was empty".

MIchelle has a lot of new links, including this one to Steyn;

One day, years from now, as archaeologists sift through the ruins of an ancient civilization for clues to its downfall, they'll marvel at how easy it all was. You don't need to fly jets into skyscrapers and kill thousands of people. As a matter of fact, that's a bad strategy, because even the wimpiest state will feel obliged to respond. But if you frame the issue in terms of multicultural "sensitivity," the wimp state will bend over backward to give you everything you want -- including, eventually, the keys to those skyscrapers.

Read this Opinion Journal piece, as well.
Jyllands-Posten decided to publish the cartoons after complaints from an author that he could not find an illustrator who dared to draw images of Muhammad for his book. It was this atmosphere of fear and intimidation that the newspaper wanted to highlight.

In the meanwhile, we line the streets to bear witness as tens of thousands of "moderate Muslims" begin counter-protests around the globe in support of cultural diversity and religious tolerance.

Oh? Was that a pin dropping?

Also - the so-called prohibition against depicting Mohammed - is a little consistency from our "Muslim brothers and sisters" too much to ask?

Posted by Kate at February 5, 2006 11:59 AM

Why We’re NOT posting the Mohammed Cartoons from The Wild Duck
Yes, we have the right to post them. No, the few we’ve seen are not, in our opinion, hate speech. But, we don’t like cartoons like this one. Why should we upset our Muslim brothers & sisters in the same way for no good reason…we ... [Read More]

Tracked on February 5, 2006 8:41 AM

Top 9 Signs Your Religion May Not Be So Peaceful from Political Satire Fake News - The Nose On Your Face
9. Your holy book is so defiant that it even refuses to follow the Q-U rule. 8. You detonated a car bomb on Old MacDonald's Farm to end the mocking 'oink-oink' sounds of his wretched swine. 7. You feel that [Read More]

Tracked on February 5, 2006 12:09 PM

Islamic inconsitency from Black Sheep Press
Should never let the facts get in the way of a good embassy burning. Also Angry on cowardice and honour. [Read More]

Tracked on February 5, 2006 1:54 PM


Hey Kate,
How about a link to the support Denmark online petition?
They only got 8000 signatures..........we could all help it out some.

Posted by: Sumbuddy at February 5, 2006 1:15 AM

nuke islam!

Posted by: george at February 5, 2006 1:57 AM

All of this shit going on can lead right back to the morning that those bastards flew those planes into the towers that morning...thats what we..thats you and me are dealing with ..Islam..satans perfect plan on earth...

Posted by: Craig at February 5, 2006 2:04 AM

I am particularily angry that sleepy Canadian newspapers aren't standing together in favour of Western civilization on this one. Even two newspapers in tiny New Zealand had the gall to publish the cartoons.

Our political correctness knows no bounds. Does it?

Posted by: Jonathan at February 5, 2006 2:07 AM

I just signed the online petition. While looking at the different comments came accross this one that may be of interest:

#8530 Here is the address for the persons responsible for this mindless conflict: http: // please write them it's all in danish, but i'll guide you through. Start by clicking on "kontakt os" (contact us) in the left side of the screen. Then, in the following screen, you'll see a map and some phonenumbers. beneath them it says "Skriv til os" (write us) click it, and you'll be asked for (from top to bottom) "Dit navn" (your name), "telefon nr." (telephone number, which you dont have to write), next one you'll recognise, "Tr�ffes bedst" (can be contacted between), "vedr." (topic) and finally "indhold" (here you can write them). Please dont embarrass the west by writing racist remarks and such. Give them something to think about instead. The Imams of this faction were the ones who travelled to the middle-east and showed'em the cartoons. WRITE THEM Danmark

I have not verified if the information is correct.

Posted by: Chris in Manitoba at February 5, 2006 2:45 AM

It's okay to fly airplanes into buildings, blow up embasies, trains, buses and any other target of convenience full of innocent people minding thier own business, but a cartoon gets these people all bent out of shape.

Funny religion that Islam!!!

Posted by: capndan at February 5, 2006 3:14 AM

I have a pretty good idea what Paul Martin would have said about this. What will Harper say?

Posted by: surly at February 5, 2006 4:22 AM

Entozoa's self-considered distaste of all things unsettling to him, and of any conflict, is irrelevent to anyone inclined to defend the laws and traditions of one's own civilization.

There is not one good reason on earth why a newspaper in northern Europe should have its content vetted in any sense by Islamists.

It's about respect.

Posted by: EBD at February 5, 2006 4:29 AM

It is what Europe has done for far too long, with us blindly marching in her footsteps.

The irony of course is that the progressives are advocating tolerance for a culture far more intolerant than anything that could be offered by us (Christians or otherwise).

Coupled with the widening disparity between Muslim and Western birthrates, the progressives will tolerate themselves right out of existance -- along with the rest of us.

Posted by: Ripplerock at February 5, 2006 6:43 AM

Ripplerock "Coupled with the widening disparity between Muslim and Western birthrates, the progressives will tolerate themselves right out of existance -- along with the rest of us."

Muslims are going to have lots of babies wether you get along with them or not. Muslims are here to stay so you better get used to it.

George "nuke islam!"

Do you guys really want to stand shoulder to shoulder with people saying things like this? The muslims aren't the only ones that need to do some chilling.

Posted by: Jose at February 5, 2006 8:14 AM

Hey Jose, "Muslims are here to stay so you better get used to it."

...seeya at 4am prayer service ok?

Posted by: tomax at February 5, 2006 8:31 AM

South Africa court bars Mohammad cartoons
The Star (Malaysia) ^ | 2/4/06 | Andrew Quinn

Posted on 02/05/2006 4:51:44 AM PST by jalisco555

JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - A South African court has granted a request by a Muslim group to bar publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad which have caused outrage among Muslims worldwide, an editor's group said on Saturday.

The South African National Editor's Forum (SANEF) said the judge's order covered most major media companies in the country and amounted to "pre-publication censorship" by the court.

"Freedom to decide what gets into the publication has been taken away from the editor and put on the shoulders of the court," SANEF Chairman Joe Thloloe said.

The Sunday Times newspaper, one of those covered by the ruling, said it had not decided whether to publish the cartoons but had refused a request by the Council of Muslim Theologians to promise not to use the images.

The Council then approached the court for the temporary restraining order, which was granted late on Friday. >>>

Posted by: maz2 at February 5, 2006 8:44 AM

Charles Martel knew the danger of Muslim fanatics why don't we?
As for so called peace loving muslims, to be a muslim is to follow a "prophet" who was in fact a brutal, murderer. How can you follow a guy like that and still be called peace loving?
When God tells me that Mohammed was His prophet then I will accept it. Until then he is just another big mouth clown.

Posted by: immortalis at February 5, 2006 8:46 AM

Examples of Anti-Semitic Cartoons in Arab Media
Anti-Defamation League ^ | governsleastgovernsbest

Posted on 02/05/2006 4:16:56 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest

In the wake of the current Muslim rioting and attacks on western embassies in reaction to the cartoons depicting Mohammed, I thought it would be instructive to see how the Arab media have depicted Jews and Jewish leaders. Popping the term "anti-Semitic cartoons" into Google yielded innumerable examples. Below are a number of cartoons that the Anti-Defamation League assembled a few years ago:

And of course we all remember Jews around the world storming various Arab embassies. Oh, wait. No we don't . . >>>

Posted by: maz2 at February 5, 2006 8:48 AM

Re: the Danish products boycott...what comes from Denmark anyway?

Posted by: steve in bc at February 5, 2006 9:15 AM

Steve in bc :

Danishes (the pastry) come from Denmark

Posted by: Tim Horton at February 5, 2006 9:40 AM

Why doesn't some Canadian take the Muslims before the Human Rights Tribunal--oh, forgot--that is only for white anti-Liberal Christians to be sanctioned--everyone else is free.
We cannot talk about free speech while this country has such onerous laws against it.
I in no way condone the burning of Embassies and such--but here the heavy hand of PC is used against us--we are just more 'civilized' in the objections that are foisted on us.

Posted by: George at February 5, 2006 9:44 AM

Clearly, the peresent "outrage" is being orchestrated - given that the cartoons were originally published last September.

Posted by: jlc at February 5, 2006 9:48 AM

Kate: It is unclear to me that the "voices of surrender" and appeasement of Islamic extremists will continue indefinitely.

At some point, the overwhelmingly non-Islamic majorities living in Western countries may resort to a populist backlash against Muslims living in their midst.... at some point ordinary people may well rebel against the mental, intellectual, and political constipation arising from Islamic extremists' demands. Think of the Resistance movement in many Nazi-occupied countries during WWII.

Posted by: SpaceNeedleBoy at February 5, 2006 9:49 AM

Last night CTV ran the cartoons, albeit, briefly. The police in the UK are under serious pressure to charge people after the demonstrations there. It would most likely be "incitement to murder."

Posted by: Mr. C.J. Mullan at February 5, 2006 9:55 AM

Last night CTV ran the cartoons, albeit, briefly. The police in the UK are under serious pressure to charge people after the demonstrations there. It would most likely be "incitement to murder."

Posted by: Mr. C.J. Mullan at February 5, 2006 9:56 AM

Warren Kinsella joins the maple syrup-sucking surrender monkeys:

"Priud [sic] to be censor"


Posted by: Mark Collins at February 5, 2006 10:03 AM

The response to radical Islamist violence by the lefts intelligentsia apologists is laughable in its ommisions.

The Danish Imans who went on a ME tour to expose these cartoons along with some others they threw in can only be described as an attempt to initiate violent reactions. The left fails to recognize that this is not a spontanious reaction rather it is a calculated campaign.

Secondly the apologists from the left fail to acknowledge that the primary target of suicide bombers in Iraq are other Iraqis. The Sunni and Shite branches of Islam are suspicous of and at odds with each other. The biggest threat to a stable Iraq is civil war. Do they honestly believe that if America abandoned Iraq tomorrow that a sudden peace would fall??

Christianity has suffered the radical interpretations of it's leaders through the ages, see the Spanish Inquisition for one. The fact remains that christianity needed to grow beyond the dogmatic interpretations of it's religous leaders. Islam is no different.

I guess it is no surprise that dogmatic adherance to the Koran would be defended by those who have devoted their lives to the dogmatism of the Church of Reason. Hell these folks are so out of date they still believe that socialism will work against all evidence. Theoretically it should. The intellectual posturing and pontificating is a sad attempt to deny the reallity of the world in which we live.

Dogmatism, be it religous; political or intellectual is akin to tunnell vision. It's time to pull the blinders off and see things for the ugly reality that is.


Posted by: Syncrodox at February 5, 2006 10:07 AM

Anone else see this in the Calgary Sun?

"Imam Syed Soharwardy, president of the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, says he's thankful the kinds of cruel caricatures of his faith's Prophet Muhammad -- which have now run in several European papers -- would likely never be printed in this country.

"I am really thankful the laws in Canada are so clear about these anti-racism and anti-violence issues ... this is why Canada is the model for other countries,"
Soharwardy said yesterday.


To clarify, a Canadian Muslim cleric just said that our lack of free speech - in the form of "anti-racism" laws - is one of the more positive aspects of Canada, for Muslims at least.

Posted by: Anonalogue at February 5, 2006 10:08 AM

Steve in BC,

Arla milk, cheese etc.
Danish crown (meat)
Lurmaerket Butter
Danish Bacon
Thor Fish
Danisco Food

Toms (chocolate)
Galle & Jessen

Tuborg Beer
Carlsberg Beer
Aalborg Aquavit (snaps)


Prince (Don't start smoking)

Per Reumert


Danish Design:
Royal Copenhagen
Georg Jensen
Lego (toys)
Brio (toys)
Raadvad (knives etc.)
Trip Trap
HTH- kitchen
Morsoe (Fireplaces)
Royal Danish Porcelain
B & G Porcelain
Vesta (Windmills)
B & O radioes/televisions etc.

Watco Danish Furniture Oil

Buy Danish yarn.


Posted by: Harry at February 5, 2006 10:11 AM

There is a difference between being able to publish something that is important or useful, and demanding the right to publish some thing that its main use is to irritate others.

We have the right to say a lot of things about a lot of people, we generally do so when it serves some purpose, and don't when it doesn't.

I agree with jose, "the muslems aren't the only ones that need to do some chilling"

Posted by: don at February 5, 2006 10:18 AM

Really Don? When was the hour of your conversion?

Posted by: Kate at February 5, 2006 10:41 AM

All newspapers and TV stations in the FREE world should arrange to publish the cartoons the same day. Seeing the attacks going on against Danish consulates, especially Beirut this am, it would not surprise me to see calls in Denmark to expel all muslims from their country.

Posted by: tranio at February 5, 2006 11:05 AM

Go to to sign a petition in support of Denmark.

Posted by: Holger at February 5, 2006 11:12 AM

>>>>>> "... but we do know of Tamil terrorists."

Chretien/Martin knew of Tamil terrorists! They accepted $$$$$$$$$$ from Tamil terrorists.

Report Newsmagazine, The: A Tamil Tiger by the tail; Martin's ...
Access the article, 'A Tamil Tiger by the tail; Martin's ethnic organizer thinks
today's terrorists are tomorrow's heroes.' from Report Newsmagazine, The, ... - 24k - >>>

"The right to laugh at gods (Danish newspaper cartoon from an Indian perspective)

The Indian Express ^ | Sunday, February 05, 2006 | Tavleen Singh

Posted on 02/05/2006 8:14:28 AM PST by Gengis Khan

Last week newspapers in France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain and Switzerland, in a gesture of solidarity with Denmark, reprinted the Danish cartoons that have enraged the Islamic world because one of them depicts the Prophet Mohammad, and any depiction of him is considered blasphemy in Islam. In Paris, the newspaper France Soir added a cartoon of its own of Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim and Christian gods seated on a cloud under a headline saying ‘Yes we Have the Right to Caricature God’.

In Europe, from where I write this piece, the controversy made headlines but could have been played down in politically correct Bharatvarsha. So, for those of you who may not have followed the story here is a precis. In September a small Danish newspaper called Jyllands-Posten published 12 cartoons in one of which the Prophet Mohammed was shown wearing a bomb-shaped turban. This caused a furore in the Islamic world and Libya, Saudi Arabia and Syria have withdrawn their ambassadors to Denmark. Many Islamic countries demanded an apology from the Danish government, which has pointed out that in a free society a government cannot apologise on behalf of a newspaper or tell it what to print.

As someone often accused of targeting Muslims in this column, I have followed the Danish cartoon controversy with interest. I believe it strikes at the root of the difficulty us infidels face in dealing with Islam and Islamists. Irreverent infidels like me, and there are many of my kind in free societies, believe that religion and the gods must be kept within the realms of literature and even cartoons. I believe the fatwa against Salman Rushdie was an outrage and the murder of Theo Van Gogh an act of barbarism. The Dutch filmmaker was killed in 2004 because he made a film on violence against women in Islamic societies.

Is it not time we stood up against Islam’s repeated attempts to impose its will, values and ideas of blasphemy on the rest of us? Is it not time we demanded that Islam retreat to the private sphere it inhabited before the advent of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and Osama bin Laden? Is it not time that the Islamic world recognised that its ideas of blasphemy are different to ours? We infidels can laugh with and at religions and gods and we must stand up for the right to do so.

Increasingly, because of the rise of Islamic terrorism, we see Muslims perceive themselves as victims of an international conspiracy to malign them and their religion. At the World Economic Forum’s annual meeting in Davos, two weeks ago, I attended a session on Islam and the World and was surprised that nearly all the panelists expressed a deep sense of grievance. One gentleman of South Asian origin but living in New York said, ‘‘Just look at the way today’s terrorists are described in the international media—as Islamic terrorists. This has never happened before, the IRA were never called Christian terrorists.’’

Maybe not, but we do know of Tamil terrorists."

Posted by: maz2 at February 5, 2006 11:29 AM

Quick- someone do a "Last Temptation of Mohammed" film or perhaps a picture of Mohammed with elephant shit. I can't believe the Toronto Star hasn't published the cartoons yet.

Is this country so tolerant that we will tolerate intolerance?

The true lesson in this is that violence does indeed solve problems. Very sad. I'm off to consume some Carlsberg beer and popcorn.

Posted by: Norman Lorrain at February 5, 2006 11:29 AM

"Warren Kinsella joins the maple syrup-sucking surrender monkeys:"

It's really too bad Stock didn't think to firebomb Kinsella's house, so he might reconsider how hurtful his mocking of Day's religion was, and take it all back.

Posted by: Kate at February 5, 2006 11:31 AM

There is a difference between being able to publish something that is important or useful, and demanding the right to publish some thing that its main use is to irritate others.

Well, Don, if an image of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban serves as a metaphor for Islamic behavior - and one only has to examine the body count over the last 30 years, let alone 9/11, Beslan, London, etc. - then, I as a citizen in a freedom of speech country should have every right to draw that and publish it. That's our right in a secular democracy. If self-censorship as practiced by Islam makes you feel a better person that's fine. God knows, we never want a Muslim to suffer a moment of "irritation" like we Christians and Jews have from time to time with offensive cartoons/movies/tv shows.

Your attitude is basically one of shooting the messenger. The Danish cartoonist exercising his right of free speech is to blame rather than the primitive murderous fascist response. What a sad exercise in muddled logic.

Posted by: penny at February 5, 2006 12:12 PM

Capndan: Funny religion that Islam!!!

YES, indeed Islam is a riot!!! Monty Pyton is no more 'cos no longer needed.

Posted by: Pedro at February 5, 2006 12:14 PM

Thanks, Kate. (This comment, minus a few additions, is also posted after the petition information you provided but I think it bears repeating here. I signed the petition--well into the nine thousands--I've bought Tuborg for my husband (I wish the Danes made wine!) and am off shortly to buy some Arla cheese.) I'm a teacher in the public gulag--whoops! system-- somewhere in Canada. It's a microcosm of the surrender monkey mentality of the appeaser states: the worse the kid, the more the system excuses and downloads the responsibility for the kid's egregious behaviour onto the teachers, whose hands are tied more and more by politically correct, bureaucratic red (duct) tape. There's almost nothing left in the discipline cupboard because we have to pretend that everyone's equal and we're not supposed to hurt anyone's feelings. (Funny, teachers do all the heavy lifting and no one seems to care about our integrity, our rights, or our feelings.) Despite enough Behaviour Codes and Safe [for the bullies] School Policies to sink a ship, gross irresponsibility on the part of parents or kids is constantly glossed over and, unless it's at the classroom level, it's rarely effectively dealt with. (I recently told both administrators at my school to quit with the excuse making and the devising of cover-ups for my most challenged student--of a visible minority group--who, in general, has responded very well to my tough love approach.) Despite their prominent "Equity Policies", the public school systems of this country practise hypocrisy of the worst kind: the "victim" card is allowed to be played over and over again by the most irresponsible participants. The unions are of little use as they enthusiastically share the boards' "smelly little orthodoxies" (George Orwell). Irony of ironies, the real victims--sacrificial ones, at that--are those who take seriously their obligations to behave in a responsible, moderate, and fair manner. Oh, Canada. Kyrie eleison.

Posted by: Judy at February 5, 2006 12:30 PM

If anyone would like to hear what pro-western iranians are saying check out The blog is in english and you'd be suprised by what some of the things they say.

Posted by: Jose at February 5, 2006 12:41 PM

A modest proposal.

How about the all the west's newspapers doing full page presentations with a centre dividing line with an equal number of our quite harmless doodles on one side, and the routine vicious jew-pig-headless infidels on the other. Sort of an equal time, balanced, er, "inclusive" view. And do it continuously, even have a permanent section, say, every Wednesday, like that.

But seriously, our kindly compassionate lefties probably have no idea about those ME cartoons, not being able to imagine the lack of sweetness and light.

Posted by: Pedro at February 5, 2006 12:42 PM

Just read that 200 of our Canadian Muslims turned up in Halifax to protest at the Danish Embassy. Women on one side, men on the other chanting freedom yes, insults no.

Pretty mild as such things go but where were they on 9-11 and all the other dates when their religious brothers butchered innocent people?

Funny group this to get so riled up by a set of pretty crappy cartoons.

As for our Western is our true enemy. University bred,bored, rich spolied brats with out a practical brain in their head. The type that would return from Germany in the 30's clutching a peice of paper and proclaiming peace in our time.

I hope there is some guts left in the Western World as it feels a bit like The Lord of The Rings Plot. We need to lance these wormtongues in our midsts and remeber the values our fore-fathers died for.

Posted by: Gregor at February 5, 2006 12:52 PM

Just signed petition hope more will do so

Posted by: brett at February 5, 2006 12:58 PM

Syria/Iran mentioned above. What say you?

Wretchard says the hour is late.


But embassy burnings in Syria provided the opportunity for the White House to re-secularize what was rapidly becoming a religious and cultural conflict. The White House seized the chance to point out these arsons were not religious outpourings but deliberate acts of a State -- the Assad regime to be exact -- a State with bitter enemies throughout the Islamic world, thereby harnessing the charged climate of public opinion to advance its strategic agenda.
It's reasonable to surmise that the first victim of the frisson that ran through Europe has already been Iran.
Opposition within the IAEA to referring Teheran to the Security Council over its uranium enrichment program suddenly collapsed -- almost unnoticed -- as the furor over the cartoons rose to a screeching pitch.

February 5, 2006 ... The United Nations' atomic energy watchdog voted in Vienna yesterday to report Iran to the UN Security Council, setting the stage for a possible international showdown with Tehran over its nuclear program. ... The landmark 27-to-3 decision by the International Atomic Energy Agency capped months of wrangling by the body's 35-member board and paved the way for possible economic or political sanctions against Iran by the powerful 15-member Security Council.

One of the things which may contributed to this lopsided vote was the sudden European realization, on account of the cartoon crisis, that things were serious, that the hour was late.

And for that we may ultimately have to thank Islamisk Trossamfund.

posted by wretchard at 5:13 AM | 48 comments

Posted by: maz2 at February 5, 2006 1:10 PM

So an Arab Muslim is walking along the beach and stubs his toe on an object. Picking it up, he discovers it is a lamp. As he rubs it clean, a genie appears, thanks the Arab for freeing him from the lamp, and grants him one wish. "Anything you desire, master, wealth, wine, fame, women, but only one wish" says the genie.

The Arab thinks for a moment and says "My neighbor has a goat that is better than mine, make it die."

And this, folks, is the type of mentality we're dealing with...

Posted by: Bruce at February 5, 2006 1:11 PM

Might I direct y'all to the post I did yesterday on this topic:

"Muslim Cartoon "Outrage": Real or an Opportunity to Incite Further Terror?"


Posted by: The Canadian Sentinel at February 5, 2006 1:15 PM

"Steve in bc" is right -- Stephen Harper needs to speak unequivocally (no Jack Straw sensitivity) in favour of our western (as in occidental) values. That's why we voted for him.

Thanks to Harry for the list of Danish products.

As I suggested in the other thread, perhaps that list should be on the main blog?

Mark Proudman

Posted by: Mark Proudman at February 5, 2006 1:17 PM

Yes, thankyou for the list of Danish products which I will be purchasing on grocery day. Since the proprietors in Toronto have seen fit to dispose of all Danish products, I will be using the little Chinese convenience store in the neighborhood. My small contribution of protest to the behaviour of the Muslim community here in Canada as well as their loving brethern who are acting out. Speaking of acting out, they are burning Danish embassies in the Muslim countries because of these cartoons, but why are they lobbying stones at a Maronite Catholic Church. This doesn't make sense. Why, I've deducted from this scenrio is that barbarians just needed an excuse to carry on their extremism. The cartoons is the reason they are giving - ohhh - but it is so much more than that. Just imagine a world wide war on the pretense of 12 cartoons. Idiots.

Back to this political correct jibberish that some of our do-gooders keep spouting here on this blog, wake up and smell the coffee. Do Christians, Jews, Buddhist, Hindus etc. cause havoc when they feel we are dishonouring their gods. Of course not, you see they are civilized. Back to my statements in the previous blog. We have to stop the immigration of Muslims to this country. We have to keep a very close eye on those that are here in the present. We have to deport all who even have a whiff of extremist views. If we want to live in a country that for some time has been free we must take drastic measures to keep Barbarism at bay. I sure hope our new PM strenghens our military and our borders. Not just to fight the terrorists in those foreign lands, but the ones right here in Canada. God Bless Canada.

Posted by: jypsy ontario at February 5, 2006 1:47 PM

The Internet/bloggers cannot be suppressed. Truth will out.

doolz said...

Some further implications:

There's all this fuss about the Jyllands-Posten, right? Actual cartoons of Muhammad printed on newsprint (way back in last September). Since then, a French and a German paper have also printed the cartoons, even a Jordanian paper printed three of them (although the editor was fired in two of those cases and the Jordanian editor had to recant).

I'd be interested to see the circulation figures for the Jyllands-Posten, I'm guessing it's not more than a few hundred thousand. Because of the uproar, millions more people have seen the cartoons, not in the newspaper, but on the Internet.

When something has become this big of an event on the Internet, it takes on a life of its own.

Censorship, meet photoshop.

There is no way to silence the millions of bloggers, forum posters and so forth.

There's no way that even if Ayatollahs took over the IANA and IETF that they could delete every image of the cartoons.

If there hadn't been such theatrical (often nonsensical) protests, it would not have come to this, they would have languished in obscurity.

And, because of the way the Internet's predecessor, the ARPAnet was designed, it should be able to withstand nuclear war. That's right, it was designed to be decentralized and therefore robust. If you took out the root DNS servers, another set of servers can be substituted in.

The cartoons have been granted immortality by their most fervid opponents.

Posted by: maz2 at February 5, 2006 1:55 PM

I sure hope our new PM strenghens our military and our borders.

I hope you Canadians can someday get your guns back. Free people in a free society should have a right to protect themselves if government fails to do so.

Posted by: penny at February 5, 2006 2:33 PM

Once again it takes Hitchens to sum it up and lead the charge

Posted by: Stephen at February 5, 2006 2:45 PM

As citizens of a democracy it is our responsibility to drive our government into an appropriate response. All of us should take a few moments to write both the PMO and our MPs indicating how we feel about this issue. This is our government; we must make it speak for us.
I would suggest that we encourage them to send a letter of support to Denmark, make a statement affirming freedom of speech and the freedom of the press, and condemn Syria and Lebanon and the behavior of their citizens.
Furthermore, we should insist that our government cease sending any aid to these and other anti-democratic countries.
Our government speaks for us. We must make sure it knows what to say.

Posted by: Mr. C.J. Mullan at February 5, 2006 2:46 PM

I was going to post "DEATH TO TANGOS" but decided to say something.

You will notice that in the United States we do not have tangos running around with their faces concealed, brandishing weapons.

And you will notice that we do not have tangos up and down the streets torching Renault-Dauphins. (OK, granted, we don't have many Renault-Dauphins.)

And this might be a puzzle for some, because if militant Islam has any reason to hate anyone, it is America.

However for some reason they are leaving us alone.

Why do you suppose this is?

Posted by: Greg (outside Dallas) at February 5, 2006 2:47 PM

We have to plow right into this - and stop the crazy fanatics before they get a foot hold in our world. This stupidity has been going on for centuries in the east - mindless boiling pots of fanatical people 'high as kites' on blood thirst and hate. The rioting and thumping and screaming for blood is not univeral in the Moslem world but any Moslem who dares to protest against the jhadists will be killed. 'Group think' is a very strong force - look at Canada and note the number of people that tolerate 'state smut', robbery, murder, corruption, stupid laws, adherance to stupid laws, etc. etc. because they don't want to make waves? If the free world MAKES a POINT and backs up the rightof all individuals to INDEPENDANT thought then the terrorists will head for the hills because they can't fight the erge of all people to be their own person. The undermining of this 'boiling pot' mentality will be destruction from within; when the 'silent majority' see a way out by observing that SOME nations won't allow intimidation to rule them, they will have the courage to fight for that right for themselves and their families.
I am Thanking God every day for the presence of Geoerge W Bush, in the Whitehouse; not that fool Jon Kerry and I thank God that Mr. Stephen Harper is now in charge of Canada; not the milque toast Martin. I am signing the petition right now and I will make certain that Danish products are purchased by this household.
Who could ever forget that the Danish King and his family wore the Star of David when the Nazi's occupied the Danish Kingdom and the Queen of Denmark continues to smoke cigarettes - in public. In a Free country. I am not making this up. Canada (and 'others') have a lot to learn about courage and integrety from the Kingdom of Denmark.

Posted by: Jema54 at February 5, 2006 3:23 PM

Spot on Jema54, spot on.

Petition signed, Tuborg bought.

Posted by: Mr. C.J. Mullan at February 5, 2006 3:33 PM

We shoud tell the Danes that it would be an honour to share Hans (Hans'?) Island with them!

Posted by: Bushman at February 5, 2006 3:38 PM

I was just reading Steyn's comments where he says,

"One day, years from now, as archaeologists sift through the ruins of an ancient civilization for clues to its downfall, they'll marvel at how easy it all was. You don't need to fly jets into skyscrapers and kill thousands of people. As a matter of fact, that's a bad strategy, because even the wimpiest state will feel obliged to respond. But if you frame the issue in terms of multicultural "sensitivity," the wimp state will bend over backward to give you everything you want -- including, eventually, the keys to those skyscrapers."

Funny, he just described Canada.

Posted by: Peter at February 5, 2006 3:46 PM

However for some reason they are leaving us alone.

Why do you suppose this is?

I would think the answer is obvious. The U.S. administration isn't content, like leftists, to mindlessly hurl insults at the enemy.

Actions speak louder than words.

Posted by: ol hoss at February 5, 2006 3:51 PM

I just sent an e-mail to our new Prime Minister asking that he tighten up our immigration policy and end the monetary help we have been sending to those Muslim countries. Now, we will see if this new government has some guts. I am all for helping with disasters. Spent a pile of loot on winter clothing to help the children in Pakistan after the earthquake. This is my choice, but when it comes to sending money to these Democratic hating countries that's where I draw the line. I hope others will send an e-mail supporting the Danes. Remember PM Stephen Harper has a minority government but other than T.O, Montreal and Van. most of the ROC think like us. Maybe we can turn things around.
Noticed Warren Kinsella has returned to normal. Scratch him.

Posted by: jypsy ontario at February 5, 2006 3:59 PM

See The Dissident Frogman for some great graphics in support of Denmark.

Posted by: Ceart on cearr at February 5, 2006 4:00 PM

Kinsella is nothing but a punk. He should be in a band called Barrabas.

Posted by: Bushman at February 5, 2006 4:02 PM

Kinsella's not on our side anymore?

Well, just let him try and do to us again what he did under Chretien.

I'll be waiting.

This time I've got a blog. Think of it as my weapon of political combat.

BTW, I'm not alone, either.

We can beat WK and his army of brainless moonbats this time. The political tectonic plates have shifted.

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at February 5, 2006 4:18 PM

Sorry if I was off topic. Brainfart.

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at February 5, 2006 4:19 PM

The Danes Freedom of Speech petition:

10 Comments for Denmark:

0803. Michel L'Islam est un cancer social / Islam is social cancer Québec, Canada

10802. Naum I am Christian Assyrian originally from Iraq. Let me tell you about this muslims. They are very unkind towards difference of beliefs. They conquered the lands my people were on for millenia and killed many of us. They did the same to countless other people throughout asia. They are like forest fire, spreading fast and devouring whatever in its paths. Good luck to you on you fight against them. We lost and we payed dearly. You should not let this happen to you. USA

10754. peter hollings the indigenous peoples of the uk salute you uk

10753. Theo Van Gogh Do you all remember me? Don't let my death be in vain. Don't let more people die the way I did. Freedom of expression is vital to your way of life, give up that to those who murdered me and all is lost. Peace be with you, my European bretheren. Heaven

10796. Timothee The outrage, which I completly support, does not justify the threats against Jyllands Posten or the violence against western embassies and diplomats in the Middle East. By the way where is the outrage when some behead hostages and tape their murder in the name of Allah? Virginia, USA

10794. John All over a cartoon eh. What a bunch of stupid fools....... calling on people to be killed, killed for what? Yep, a cartoon........STRANGE PEOPLE!! Gloucestershire, England.

0791. Filiep Geeraert Freedom of speech is our religion ! We won't let some retarded religion that discriminates women and commits bomb attacks tell us what to do ! Freedom of speech by all means !

10745. Hans Christian Europe has suffered under Nazism, communism, fascism, and we know the signs of totalitarian regimes. May I express my deepest respect and thanks to Jyllandsposten and Denmark for raising this debate. Norway

0740. Mark Unsworth I am sick of Muslims dictating the way of our life in the Uk and in Europe. I support freedom of expression and speech and if that means upsetting the minority muslim immigrants into europe then so be it. As the Romans said "When in Rome do as the Romans do" England

0726. Richard Purdy We, the British people, will stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Denmark in the struggle against the hate mongers of Islam. We shall fight for freedom until freedom prevails. Manchester, England

0818. FoolishUse PressFreedom Not the time to feed Iran, Syria, Saudi frenzy. Canada..wait till democracy takes hold.

I thought one may have to scroll a long way to find profound comments. Not so. There are plenty of powerful comments right at the top section.

My comment in favour of temperance and patience is buried under the masses stampeding to declare for freedom of speech at any cost. I defer to the majority of course, yet my Scot heritage doesn’t like the at all costs part. I suggest that some measure of planning and stealth must be used to foil those who would clamp down on all our freedoms if they could.

We must realize that not all Muslems are bad people. It pays to keep the good Muslems as friends, since they are best equipped to take back their religion to the true peaceful values it originally held.

I prefer not to get mad just yet, but to ease up on the inflaming cartoons for now to save lives and the burning of embassies. What a silly waste of money that is. [ Scot heritage thing again].

We can then concentrate on helping to firm up their democratic framework in Afghanistan and Iraq. Keep our eye on the ball in other words. It is democracy that dictators are trying to kill here.

This whole outrage about cartoons is fueled by the people who fanned hate into Lebanon against the Jews for [32] thirty - two years and more. Do we want to give Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia more fuel with which to inflame the Jihadists?

Never mind the protests, as justified as they are. Flood Iraq and Afghanistan with more troops and give all the good Muslems the democracy they have shown they want by going to the polls in the face of death.

We can not afford to back out of this as we did in Viet Nam. Dictators in the Middle-East use any sign of backing-off as fuel to ramp up terrorist acts just as they have done with the cartoons fiasco.

We will not run screaming in the streets as fundamentalists do. We will apply more pressure and resolve to help Muslems resist the other *Saddams* operating with stealth against freedom and fairness. TG

Posted by: TG at February 5, 2006 4:27 PM

The left (Kinsella and others) fall back on the old thinking that the rantings against Islam imply hate.

These expressions can also lead to potential harrassment from human rights tribunals who most vigorously and may I say even hatefully, prosecute alleged hate crime.

Know this ... when people are threatened and made to live in fear a violent group living all around the world and right next door ... who have MADE IT ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that they plan to destroy the west, kill all Jews and take over the planet.


We want to live our way of life, in our own culture with all it's warts. THE WORLD OF ISLAM IS TAKING THAT AWAY FROM US AND MUST BE STOOD UP TO AS THEY DO IN THE USA.

Although, we in the west are also at war our apologist cowardly leftist factions. Given enough time and with ever more outrageous acts from the Muslim world, more and more of the left will wake up to the threat.

We are already at war and some of us dicidedly aren't up to it. We won't have that luxury much longer.

Islam has proven over and over that it is incompatible with our modern world ... One of us has to go.

Does it make sense to have them evolve forward to our time slot in history or should we abandon our way of life to go back in history and live as they do? They won't and we won't. So we will fight this war ... like it or not.

I will be interested to hear anyone's answer to that question.

I also am curious to know how the overtly secular Liberalist leftist Democrats in the west, are so quick to take the side of the most radical hard core religious sect the world has ever known.

I am talking about people how cannot tolerate the sight of a Christmas tree. How do they resolve this in their own tiny brains?

Posted by: Duke at February 5, 2006 4:34 PM

If Islam had its roots in Scandanavia, and the rioters hiding their identities behind bandanas and shrouds were blonde and blue eyed, Kinsella and his ilk would be manning the baracades.

The left is so totally, utterly committed to seeing the world through a filter of benevolent racism, that they cannot see themselves for what they are.

Posted by: Kate at February 5, 2006 4:41 PM

I also am curious to know how the overtly secular Liberalist leftist Democrats in the west, are so quick to take the side of the most radical hard core religious sect the world has ever known.

Because as fascists in their own right they hate individual freedoms as much as Islamofascists.

Remember these are the idiots who still have admiration for the killing fields of Communism and admire freedom restricting socialism. They infect the media and college campuses. They are as dangerous as the Islamic fascists. They move from cult to cult in their admiration anything but democracy.

We need to take back the leftist media monopoly here and in Canada and restore colleges to places of free expression of inquiry instead of indoctrination camps.

Posted by: penny at February 5, 2006 4:52 PM

Thanks Kate and Penny. This place is a comfort zone for me when my world is cloudy.

Posted by: Duke at February 5, 2006 5:00 PM

The mere fact that the Imams from Denmark went on a political "support" mission to their homeland implies:
1. Muslims do not consider Denmark their homeland.
2. Danish Muslims need to rally the troops for more $$ or infrastructure to fight the infidel.
3. European Muslims are less patient and have decided to drop the gauntlet earlier rather than wait for demographics to take their toll. Does this mean they think they are now battle ready on the European front?

Posted by: westword at February 5, 2006 5:08 PM

This is all pushing the people of Denmark ever closer to the election of an extreme right wing Gov't.If the moderate muslims of that nation have a voice,they had better find it and quick..When,not if the Danes regroup,it will be a sorry day for the militants.Bearing the "white mans burden" will no longer have the cache it once had. Denmark will never be a link pin for an Islamist caliphate,which most muslims will soon discover.....

Posted by: kursk at February 5, 2006 5:15 PM

Bought a case of 24 Tuborg Gold Premium Beer. Quite a pleasant beer, strong flavour but no after taste. Tomorrow I will be going to Home Depot to buy some Watco Danish Furniture Oil, plus Watco Danish Furniture Wax to refinish my oak desk.

Also for the .000001% of the population that needs vibration and noise measurement equipment, the Danish company Brüel & Kjær make some very good equipment and have excellent customer service.

Posted by: qwerty at February 5, 2006 5:27 PM

B & O Danish Stereo equipment is very fine too. Can't afford it myself, but I am sure some of you might.

Posted by: Duke at February 5, 2006 6:02 PM

As I implied in an earlier post, how do we reclaim the media and universities if our public school system's a breeding ground for proles to serve the left-wing state? Our students are being force-fed a steady diet of homogenized pap. The default position is anti-Christianity--other religions are treated with great deference and as equal partners in the achievements of the West. (Despite all the facts to the contrary, the orthodoxy of the board I work for is that all religions are equal.) Students learn that bullying usually pays--victims are expected to buck up and employ "anti-bullying strategies", while the bullies and other trouble makers are usually appeased. The students notice that bullies and other n'er do wells are almost never given anything but a limp, figurative slap on the wrist and are back in the class and on the yard almost immediately to continue the cycle of disrespect and disruption. This is demoralizing and, in the long run, dangerous for everyone in our society. But, as principals have about as much power as Paul Martin's PMO and there is no process for redress, the dysfunction continues. Under the present circumstances, we won't be seeing a change in the media or universities any time soon.

Posted by: Judy at February 5, 2006 6:03 PM

Christians must stand for the protection of the freedom of dissent because the essence of their religion involves a free choice.

Posted by: jack at February 5, 2006 6:07 PM

There is a Carlsberg extra-strength beer called "Elephant". Says it all.


Posted by: Mark Collins at February 5, 2006 6:15 PM

Support Denmark and free speach. We cannot allow our freedoms to be impinged by fear.
Sign the petition if you haven't.

Posted by: Hlyrad at February 5, 2006 6:30 PM

The silence from the domestic voice of islam is denouncements forth coming until political expedience dictates. I concur with Kate on this ...after a long assimilation of the available facts and actions I think Islam is an order of vary degrees of intolerance of diversity. When I see a Canadian Imam sit down with a prominent rabi and a bishop and they uniformly denounce the theocratic conflicts raging around the globe, only then will I be convinced the major religions are willing to tolerate each other's presence.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at February 5, 2006 6:35 PM

I'm currently pondering Kinsella's recent musings as to the cartoon controversy. His arguments are full of holes, I have found. I felt, as I read his post of Feb. 5th, that once again, he's trying to have it every way he wants it, in typical leftofascist fashion.

Why is Kinsella condemning the cartoons which have supposedly angered Muslims while at the same time excusing and piss-poorly trying to explain away the "Bad Religion" band and the "Tit Fuck Me Jesus" band? I completely reject his illogic. Pure bullshit. Just 'cause he's Christian, it's okay that there are bands with names that blaspheme Christianity? He's ok with that but not with the cartoons?

He tries to justify using a purple dinosaur to attack someone's religion for political gain. But it's only justified in his own warped leftist mind. He blasphemed Mr. Day's religion. He says the cartoonists were wrong to do the same. He thinks there's a difference? Here we go again with that horseshit leftist concept of "moral equivalence". I wish he would just give up and shut up as he's just making an ass of himself all over again. Hypocrite.

Doesn't he understand that Christianity and Judaism and all non-Islamic religions as well as non-religious peoples are being threatened by Islamic leaders all over the world? Certainly there are good Muslims, but unfortunately, there are also a hell of a lot of bad ones who want to wipe the planet clean of all who aren't purely Islamic and Arab. We cannot lay down our arms when threatened by the bad Islamofascists who plot as we speak to kill us all simply because of the fact that not all Muslims are bad. (Remember, during WWII, not all Germans and Japanese were bad, but we did have to beat them in a war, right?) We want the good Muslims as our friends, for sure, but as for the bad ones, well, I would hope the good ones would want to put a stop to the baddies amongst their people so there won't be what is known in Islam as a "holy war". Why won't or can't he understand?

Does he want us to sleepwalk towards annihilation? Maybe he welcomes it? Hmm... do leftists want to be killed in a slaughter, putting up no resistance? Is that what leftists want? Surely they realize that would be the end result if they had their way?

Don't leftists realize the terrorists want to kill us, not because of "American foreign policy in the MidEast" or because of some cartoons, but simply because the terrorists hate us because we aren't Muslims and therefore want to kill us in line with the dictates of their religion or what many of them believe to be such?

Leftists sure are scary.

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at February 5, 2006 7:02 PM

Kate: Nice blog. I stumbled on it between curses at the libs during the election - and decided to stay.

Regarding the infamous cartoons, I will make a prediction. The chorus will rise until about mid-month, and then fall away rapidly. The reason? Simple; the foreign aid cheques go out in the third week of the month. Yes, there are many devout muslims who are probably very irate. There are however many "leaders" who will use this to "renogotiate" their handout. Look for the Danes and Norwegians to announce a couple of new aid projects.

Posted by: HomieDeKlown at February 5, 2006 7:07 PM

BTW, when we go to Islamic countries, we have to obey each and every law and custom, else we'll end up in really deep doody. Perhaps even horribly tortured or dead, according to Islamic penalty.

Now, Western society is much, much more benevolent and forgiving and tolerant and welcoming than Islamic society. Considering this, is it too much to ask that Muslims try harder to fit into Western society if they wish to live in it? They'd insist we fit in in their countries, if allowed to be there at all.

Don't forget this. They demand a lot of us while we ask very little. We didn't start the conflicts; they did.

They can stop the conflict simply by stopping it themselves. Once they've stopped, we'll stop. We know this. So do they.

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at February 5, 2006 7:16 PM

Dogs, dogs, dogs; mow them down like dogs.

Mow them down like dogs

UPDATE: Berlinski emails from Istanbul:

Evidently there were "hundreds of demonstrators" at the Danish consulate here today.

(I missed it; I was happily oblivious until I read the news.) Now, "hundreds of protestors" never congregate in Istanbul without government sanction. There is no such thing as freedom of assembly here; if you're out protesting, it's because the government authorized it, period. So Denmark and Turkey are going to be part of one big happy EU family? Sure thing. Tell that to the Danish diplomats cowering in their consulate in Istanbul and nervously reviewing the fire escape plans.

Oh, and someone shot a Catholic priest in Ankara today, too. Not clear yet whether it was related.

That said, "hundreds of protestors" isn't that much in a city of 10 million, and when I went out today everyone seemed to be their normal friendly selves, including the Islamist grocers down the street, who have never been anything but pleasant to me. So don't be put off if you're thinking of visiting, Istanbul is still great, and very safe.

(Almost certainly safer than London: I have no

doubt that if the protestors get too frisky here,

the government will mow them down like dogs.) >>>

via instapundit

Posted by: maz2 at February 5, 2006 7:35 PM

I remeber maybe 6-8 years ago on 60 Minutes when they had the leader of the Bosnian Serbs as an interview guest. He claimed at the time he was defending the west against the muslim world, and he said that was Bosnia's traditional role. At the time he was laughed at. Now it makes people think if maybe he was right.

Posted by: jim baldwin at February 5, 2006 7:37 PM're assuming that they WANT to stop...
I see no real difference between the so called moderates and the radicals of Islam.They are too sides of the same coin,and when the silence is deafening from the moderates it speaks volumes to me about the true intent of the muslim actions

Really,the Islamists actions differ only by degree,not intent...

Posted by: kursk at February 5, 2006 7:39 PM

With so much conversation seeming to end with a call to have all Moslems kicked out of their country of choice in Europe.
It may be something for the European Community to consider before allowing Turkey, any kind of membership... Once in Europe, they travel freely from state to state... without any checks...

so many problems, so few solutions.

I hesitate to say, "all the moslems out" like King Ferdinand did in the Spain of 1492. It simply cannot be done in a democracy. Really, it can only be done by a "strongman" and all the other things we hold as valued, are lost then.

Maybe in times of war, when the laws change... like here in Canada in 1970. but in our democracy, this cannot be done.

Posted by: marc58510 at February 5, 2006 8:12 PM

Would someone please define the meaning of the phrase "a good muslim". With every attrocity committed by yet another mis-understood Islamic terrorist faction I wait to hear the moderate-good muslim condemn the acts. Their voices are few and far between. Why is it so hard to condemn the murder of children in a Beslan school or theatre goers in Moscow or the murder of Christians in a church, or the stoning of women in Iran? I could go on but I'm sure everyone gets the point. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Good Muslim indeed, where are they? I won't be holding my breath. The Muslim intent is clear to all who have the wisdom to see. It is time to fight back!

Posted by: greg at February 5, 2006 9:05 PM

I mentioned fear a couple of times on my blog and in other commentary. I think it's reasonable to consider that there is a lot fear around the war with Islam. There is large evidence everywhere that these lunatics are out to kill us and take over as much of the world as they can.

They aren't going away and the line they continue to draw in the sand is coming ever closer to our toes.

The question is ... when do we draw our line and what do we back it up with?

The divide between left and right in the west presents as big a challenge as the Muslim hoards who now appear to be in control of Europe.

We can only face down the fear by ending our tolerance of what scares us.

Forget political correctness and mulitcultural niceties, we are at war and our enemy is ruthless.

Get some spine and fight back.

If we let it go too long, a strong man will arise and things will really change ... some problems may get solved but many others will be created and we won't like them much.

We still have an opportunity to unite against the forces of Islam, but I doubt we will. Moonbats are unbelievably as convinced that niceness can win over our enemies. We have all seen how well that works in our criminal justice system. NOT!

It is strange how humans can't seem to even learn from our mistakes anymore.

Maybe our time has past and this is the natural course of things. We go away, a new society takes over. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened.

I'd like a chance to save our more advanced society ... at least until we develop warp drive so some of us can finally get away from these people.

I think Western democracies may have a lot to offer other planets. We have a lot to offer to this one, but there aren't many takers.

Have laugh at Duke's Place.

Posted by: Duke at February 5, 2006 9:11 PM

Where is Bono during all this.

Posted by: maryT at February 5, 2006 9:59 PM


IMO, this is a good time for all peoples of the Western Democracies to stand firm with Denmark.

Just to let everyone know: The URL for the Danish Embassy in Canada is

Their principal email contact address is

I just sent them a supportive email, including at the bottom a small embedded Danish flag with supportive statement, available at the blog The Dissident Frogman, at

Posted by: Dave at February 5, 2006 10:05 PM

Steve in BC
I went out and bought some real Danish Blue Cheese today , and some Norwegean Crisp breads.


Posted by: Robert Albin at February 5, 2006 10:16 PM

From (via

"" Even taking the period of the early 1600's to the early 1800's (and in this period Islam was much weaker than it had been) the Muslims took about one million Christian European as slaves (this, of course, excludes the Africans that the Muslims took as slaves).

The endless denoucing (and correct denoucing) of the European slave trade, rather leave out the attacks on Europe - attacks that went as far north as Iceland (and included direct attacks on Britain - for example on the coast of Devon)*. And made people on the high seas and in coastal communites live in fear for centuries.

Further back in time (during the early "middle ages") Muslims sacked whole European cities in France and Italy (inculding Rome) - no city on the the coast of the Med was safe.

And of course there is the extermination of the Christian and Jewish communities of Arabia by the prohet of the Muslims.

And the conquest (and savage repression) of the Persion civilization and other civilizations futher east.

Also the conquest of the Middle East and North Africa (once Christian lands) by fire and sword. For all the talk of the "Pact of Omar" (itself life in exchange for a serious of humiliations) many people in the Middle East and North Africa (such as the Berbers) faced the choice of Islam or the sword.

The wars against the Christian lands of what is now southern Sudan were going on into the 16th century.

And Muslim attacks against Ethopia continued after that. The sack of Gondar and other cities occured after the death of General Gordon (that is correct the Muslims were not just interested in the Sudan).

Nor should one forget the various Islamic groups of Turks (the behaviour of the first wave of these invaders set off the Crusades as a response and the last wave, the Ottomans, finally destroyed [Constaninople in 1453 and a few holdouts over the next century] Byzantine civilization (a civilization they had been attacking since the mid 11th century - especially after the great defeat of 1071).

Praise of the enlightened Islamic civilization of in Spain does rather leave out the destruction (by the Muslims) of the Visigothic Kingdom (the land of such scholars as Isidora of Seville) and of the war to take over France and the rest of Europe (only defeated by Charles Martel). One must also remember the annual offensive conducted by even the most tolerant Muslim rulers in Spain (before they lost the military power to do so) against areas of Spain that never accepted their rule.

I am also getting a little tired of the Muslims getting the credit for Spanish irrigation systems (as if the Roman civilization had never existed), for "Arabic numerials" (Indian) certain types of steel (Central Asian and preIslamic) the lateen sail (also preIslamic and widespread - for example the Byzantines used it in the time of Justinian) and various other things.

Islam did indeed have a fairly tolerant view of preIslamic learning in some periods, however the great "closing" of the Islamic system of thought (the judgement that there was no new fundemental knowledge to be discovered) occured in the early middle ages in the main part of the Islamic world. There have always been Muslims who rejected this closing - but they became a small minority.

For all the vile behaviour of the Roman Catholic church in the middle ages (and after - and the vile behaviour of its Protestant enemies), it was never its main doctrine the no great new things remained undiscovered (for all its persecution of people who discovered things that it did not like).

A more tolerant view persisted in Spain (where the last of the old ruling family of the Muslims (the Umayyads) fled and founded a new Caliphate) - but this system of government in Spain (i.e. the famous civilization of Cordoba (from 929) this fell into Civil War in the 11th century - long before it was retaken (retaken for it had been a Christian city for more than 500 years before it became a Muslim city in 711 - and when the Muslims captured it they virutally destoyed it) by the Christians in 1236.

And one thinks of the evil intolerace of Ferdinand and Isobella in the late 15th century one must also think of the intolerance of the waves of Muslims from North Africa who came into Spain during the periods of civil strife after the fall of the Cordaba Caliphate.

For all the disgusting activities of Christians the majority Christian view is that most of the Bible (including most of the New Testiment) is NOT the direct word of God - it is the word of various men inspired by God.

This is not and has never been the majority view of Muslims of the Koran. This is held to be the literal and direct word of God (revealed to the Prophet and then written down by scribes under his direction)

Given some of the contents of the Koran this is unfortunate.

The "rationalism" of the Muslims that one writer above mentioned is actually this - a getting away from the messing business of various interpretations of an contradictory text (the Bible), this is not a rationalism that libertarians should welcome.

Nor is the Islamic doctrine of predestination - another thing various Western philosophers found "rational".

Such determinism was always a powerful view in Christianity as well, but it has been (and still is) resisted.

Once there had been great resistance to predestination (i.e. really determinism) in Islamic thought - but such resistance (apart from a tiny minority) collapsed in the early middle ages.

Posted by Paul Marks at February 1, 2006 08:43 PM ""

To which I might add that although the early Arab Muslims may have been brave and adventurous, great traders and canny middlemen, superb calvary tacticians and sailors; the crediting of them with "creating" a great civilization in the early Caliphate is overstated. It seems more to me that it was the breaking of the military barriers between the Roman/Hellenist Mediteranian and Persia/Sassanid on the one hand and the opening of freer trade and contact with Hindu India/Buddist South East Asia on the other, all of whose technologies and peoples and philosophies met freely and openly for the first time ( and for only a few generations) in the Levant/Mesopotamia/Yemen. This flowering of creativity was credited to the Arabs because they held the sword hand and did not, at the beginning, cut off innovation or debate. This tolerance soon changed ( truth is in the Prophets' Koran; if books/thoughts agree with the Koran then they are redundant and only second rate shadows of the Holy Writ/Mohammed's teachings and hence unnecessary to persue/develop, if books/ideas contradict the Prophets' Koran (in any way) they are then vile blasphemies to be expunged and destroyed) as Muslim clerics became more sophisticated, aware and comprehending of the subtleties and dangers of philosophy meeting theology and the Caliphs knowing full well where their power base rested. I am afraid that this cultural stasis lasts to today and I am reminded of the last time a profoundly conservative/religious even clannish society found itself wrenching itself apart modernizing and adapting to the West, Japan.
Robert Albin
But, I'm no expert

* the last slave raids on Nothern Atlantic Europe, by the Barbary Pirates, were as late as the 18th Century

Posted by: Robert Albin at February 5, 2006 11:43 PM

Support Denmark Banners at the dissident frogman

Posted by: Unclemeat at February 5, 2006 11:53 PM

Any depiction of Mohammed is against Islamic law. It outrages Muslims. An image of Mohammed is a personal insult to a Muslim. They protested, urged a boycott, waved signs, warned of revenge. Others are saying it is about free speech. This is important, there is a dialogue..good. I have no problem with that. I'd like a picture of Mohammed anyway, I am not worried about free speech. I felt insulted when I saw a protester's sign "Europe. Take some lessons from 9/11" Maybe because I live in in Canada carrying the picture of Mohammed could be illegal. What if I made a sign that said "I have a picture of Mohammed in my head" ?

Posted by: kenney2 at February 5, 2006 11:58 PM

Judy said: "As I implied in an earlier post, how do we reclaim the media and universities if our public school system's a breeding ground for proles to serve the left-wing state?"

I fully agree. Our thrice weekly newspaper just included a twelve (12!) page insert for the 'Global Film Festival Nanaimo', sponsored by Malaspina University College. The focus is "environmental issues,human rights, social issues,womens' issues, native rights, north/south issues and international solidarity."

The more than 40 films include 'The Revolution Will Not be Televised' (Hugo Chavez, "colourful folk hero, beloved by his nation's working class...") Hijacking Catastrophe: 9/11- Fear and the Selling of American Empire, Wal-Mart, the High Cost of Low Price etc. etc.

In an attempt to provide 'balance' they feature one 'pro free enterprise' film: Why Wal-Mart Works', but they follow the introduction with an invitation: If you want to discuss OPPOSING points of view about Wal-Mart and it's methods, come to the workshop, "Whats wrong with Wal-Mart..."

Funny, but it's the only film with such an invitation to express a different perspective.

I think I'll be visiting my local University to see if I can't 'follow the money' for this expensive 'Film Festival'

Posted by: Randy at February 6, 2006 12:26 AM

My support is the same as a couple on this post, I now look for Danish products to buy.

Posted by: Western Canadian at February 6, 2006 12:35 AM


If you are in Calgary you are lucky. Down on 10 ave SW there is a Danish Deli (or that is where it was last time I was there) They have a large selection of all kinds of good things to eat imported from all the Scandinavian countries

Posted by: Dawn at February 6, 2006 12:46 AM

It is on 10th Ave SW (south side,lots parking) about 6th St and is the Danish/Canadian Cultural Centre. Lots of excellent imports.
Robert Albin

Posted by: Robert Albin at February 6, 2006 12:52 AM

It worries me that if violent Neo-Nazi extremists clash with these violent Muslim extremists, they might be perceived as defenders of Christianity.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..."
- Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:43-44);&version=31;

Posted by: Phil L at February 6, 2006 12:54 AM

Duke "I also am curious to know how the overtly secular Liberalist leftist Democrats in the west, are so quick to take the side of the most radical hard core religious sect the world has ever known."

As an overtly Liberal lefty let me say I'm not on "their" side. Go ahead and protest the muslims all you want that's your right. I'm just not going to join you in calls like this one....

"Islam has proven over and over that it is incompatible with our modern world ... One of us has to go."

This sounds like something out of Mein Kampf. Now that was a man who knew how to deal with a religon he didn't like.

My response to this whole flap is to go onto english speaking Iranian blogs (of which there are several) and talk to progressive Iranians. You should give it a try, it just might give you a different perspective.

I pesonaly wouldn't post the cartoons but hey its a free country so you guys can do what you like. Accompanying it with calls of "nuke Islam" or inferenes of getting rid of these people I don't get behind.

And no I don't approve of the actions of the embassy burners either. I'm just not whipping myself into a lather over it.

Posted by: Jose at February 6, 2006 4:16 AM

Jose said:

"This sounds like something out of Mein Kampf. Now that was a man who knew how to deal with a religon he didn't like."

Jose, that is NOT a parallel. You see, the Muslims have DEMONSTRATED OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN that they're malevolent and hellbent on killing all who differ from them. How in the world isn't that incompatible with the modern world?

As for "progressive" (whatever that means; it has never, ever been clearly defined by the left) Iranians, I'm afraid a few Iranians who may not agree with President Ahmadinejad will not make any difference whatsoever. Ahmadinejad has the power; he's completely committed to jihad simply because he believes it's Allah's will and he must spread, according to his religious sect, "tyranny and oppression" so as to hasten the coming of the Messiah. He has explicitly declared his intent to not only "wipe Israel off the map" but to also wipe out all "Anglo-Saxons" everywhere.

Well? Are you unenlightened? Do you lack the truth? Do you only let the brainwashed so-called "progressive" folks tell you what to think? Do you not relentlessly seek the truth about the current state of the world for yourself?

I'm terribly afraid that you don't understand.

And it is wrong to compare Hitler's treatment of the Jewish people to the need to stand on guard and be ready to respond with force should Islam launch an all-out war on the non-Islamic world.

Chamberlain was wrong. Hitler promised he wouldn't invade Britain, but he lied. Appeasement and dialogue are irrelevant in the face of such monsters.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Always remember, the Islamists are the ones who want to wipe out Jewish and other non-Islamic peoples in the world, exactly as Hitler aimed to wipe out all he deemed "non-Aryan". Today, Bin Laden, Hamas and Mahmud Ahmadinejad are exactly the same kind of monsters! Don't you see, Jose?

I hope, for your sake, you'll open your mind and not simply think inside the tiny box given to you by so-called "progressives".

Question the left. They are dangerous in their dogmas even though they believe they're righteous.

Inform yourself.

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at February 6, 2006 4:57 AM

Canadian Sentinel,

I do see radical Islam as a serious threat. I'm not on "their" side.

I also happen to have a lot of Muslim friends who I'm quite fond of. These are people whose values and behaviour is perfectly in synch with the west. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't want to see them nuked, interned or somehow gotten rid of. Mainstream muslims are the real victims of these radicals. Why don't we get on their side and help them free themselves from these jokers? And don't complain that you don't hear from them. Its not that they aren't blogging.

If the only Muslims you pay attention to are violent radicals and terrorists then what do you expect to hear? Why not look at the whole picture before you build the internment camps.

But go ahead and protest how you wish. I may be a lefty but I'm not so politicaly correct that I'd admonish someone for speaking their mind. But I'm not going to let inferences of nuking or getting rid of Muslims go unanswered either. If heckling calls for some kind of final solution for Islam makes me a colloborator then so be it.

There are plenty of Iranians out there right now trying to come to imagine a freer society where people aren't persecuted for their race, religon, sexual orientation or point of veiw. The good news is that they've discovered the blogosphere now and for the first time they can converse with one another in a public forum without fear of reprisal. Time is on their side. I'm confident (not certain) that they will gain control of their country and put their current leaders on trial.

Why don't you try talking to a few of them? You might be suprised by what they have to say and I'm sure that a number of them would like to hear from a voice from the other side of the wall. That's probably why they are blogging in English instead of Farsi.

Posted by: Jose at February 6, 2006 7:53 AM

Jose, I'm off to work right now, but I can say you do have some valid points with which I agree.

I also would assure you I wouldn't recommend a "final solution" for Islam, so let's not start using this inflammatory language. The people on this thread do realize that there are plenty of rational Muslims, but the bad guys like Hamas, Bin Laden and Ahmadinejad really must be dealt with. They cannot be reasoned with, as history has shown. And the good Muslims are powerless to stop them, unless they choose to actually excommunicate all Jihadists from their Mosques or something else really meaningful like that. You see, they live in fear for their lives. What can they do?

I'll check out the blog you provided above.

Certainly we in the Western World can discuss it and come to agreements. I just wanted to make sure you understood the nature of the danger facing us all from the monsters like Ahmadinejad, who, btw, are allied with other brutal totalitarian states like China and North Korea, which are rapidly amassing their militaries and nuclear arsenals as we speak. This scares the crap out of me and I do fear they may have a hidden long-run agenda to take over the free world and spread "tyranny and oppression". The governments of these nations are as ruthless and malevolent as those of Hitler and the Imperial Japanese in WWII.

Gotta go, but it's good to discuss these very, very important matters whether one leans "left" or "right" (wish there were more sensible labels than those simplistic ones, eh?)...

In the meantime, I've posted on the subject on my own blog. I've put up many links to info, etc.

Posted by: Canadian Sentinel at February 6, 2006 8:13 AM

I hope you keep bumping this story to the top Kate.

There have been images made of Muhammad for centuries.

IMO, if the MSM in Canada will not show those images during this debate then they cannot even PRETEND anymore to be unbiased journalists.

I understand the fear but at some point even lily livered left wing Canadians should STAND UP (they won't).

Canadians have let others take it on the chin (and worse)in the WOT.

Today is a good day to change that.

Posted by: no bozos allowed at February 6, 2006 10:32 AM

Jose, you've made some good points, but I don't share your optimism about the Iranians or any of the ME masses arriving at democracy anytime soon.

Bloggers are intimidated in Iran. Western music is now banned. I haven't seen any street protest there with the new regime in place.

Just look at the Russians for a lesson in how precarious democracy is with some groups. Putin is systematically restoring Stalinesque repression. He has taken over all of the tv stations, stolen Yukos, put Khordorkovsky - who was funding democratic parties - in prison, and has suspended provincial govenor elections. The Russian sheeple seem perfectly willing to give their freedoms back. No protest. Public opinion polls show the majority support Putin.

Islam is democracy adverse. You basically have to renounce the religion to become a secular and democratic person. Russian culture has always had a a strong aversion toward individualism long before communism. Capitalism has amplified suspicion and envy which has always been below the surface there. Like Islam, Russians are very shame-based in their behaviors.

The liberties, individualism and capitalism we embrace aren't necessarily wanted as a whole by others.

Posted by: penny at February 6, 2006 1:06 PM

Penny "Islam is democracy adverse. You basically have to renounce the religion to become a secular and democratic person"

Well since "secular person" is often used to denote an athiest yes you would have to renounce Islam (or any religon for that matter) to become one. There is however no fundemental conflict between democracy and Islam.

Posted by: Jose at February 6, 2006 1:32 PM


Let me state myself better. Islam had no Jesus to give permission for a secular society with "render unto Caesar.....". The Koran insists on a theocracy.

Turkey is only secular because Attaturk imposed it. The Shah of Iran was moving in that direction. The populace embraced the mullahs after his departure.

Anyway you slice or dice it, Islam will resist a secular democracy.

The whole point of Iraq is see if a secular democracy can stick in the ME. The Shiia are the wild card.

Posted by: pennyhughes at February 6, 2006 2:21 PM

"There is however no fundemental conflict between democracy and Islam."

I'm not so sure about that.

Are there any truly free and democratic purely Islamic nations in the world at all? Have there ever been?

I mean aside from non-religious-based nations that happen to have a Muslim majority.

Has there ever been a fundamentalist Islamic nation that was democratic? I cannot think of one.

That's why I'm not so sure as to whether the above statement is correct.

Just look at Canada: separation of church and state is a big deal these days and, in fact, the Christian religion seems to be under pressure from the left in general to lie down and submit-- to what seems to be a new godless religion in the form of dogmatic leftist doctrine-- to the point that it ceases to exist.

But then again, it's my observation that the "left" as a loose coalition of Liberal gov'ts, the MSM, the courts, etc. only accept democracy if they believe it's going to go their way. No wonder the left is so vehemently opposed to referenda on controversial social issues. The left simply must have its way... hmm... that makes me think of President Ahmadinejad, whose own religious dogmas must be supreme to all else; anyone who resists his will is subject to execution. Certainly far different in degree, but the similarity appears, in my view, between the Western left and ultra-orthodox fundamentalist Islamofascism.

Therefore, I think the left, as well as the moderate Muslims, needs to stop and think long and hard about the directions they've been taking up to now. They both seem to be too silent and submissive to the horrifyingly intimidating tactics of the murderous Islamofascists.

Moderate Muslims must decide if they want to have a "pure" or "fundamentalist" Islamic religion or if they're going to adapt to the reality of the contemporary world. Understanding that the Islamofascists want to return the whole world to the Dark Ages or whatever, they now must proceed to oppose the tyrants and oppressors who act supposedly in the name of Allah, if indeed Islam is to be a "religion of peace" rather than of absolute intolerance of all who aren't purely "Islamic" in the most extreme sense of the word.

The fact is that the non-Muslim world will never accept what the likes of Bin Laden, Hamas and Ahmadinejad want for the world.

If the Islamotyrants proceed with a full-scale Jihad, there, unfortunately, would be no option but to wipe them out with nuclear weapons. We had to do similar in WWII as a matter of the survival of freedom, democracy and human rights in the world. We cannot be intimidated.

We, the Western World, including moderate, peaceful, tolerant Muslims, need to make it very clear to the Islamotyrants that we will destroy them if they proceed with Jihad. Period.

They need a serious, believable ultimatum, backed up by a new arms race. And their allies, China, North Korea, etc. must also get the message.

Don't tread on us.

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