Oh great, whenever you hear "human rights commision" you just know commonsence is about to challenged and be put in jeopardy of being replaced by its time to spread some misery around. Fare hikes anyone?

Don't see how it would be possible to pay the Stewardesses the same amount as the Pilots. They can't fly the plane, can they?

I'm all for equal pay for equal work, but......

Another stupid Politically Correct endeavour.

Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!

SCOC and HRC: Please, oh PLEASE rule in favor of the union!

Air Canada will go belly up and that will open up the market to more US carriers.

Result: Canada will have no competetive air carriers. period.

As someone who has worked for an airline, I can say that mechanics, pilots and FA's aren't even close in terms of having similar jobs, pardon me, in government speak the same "establishment," What does that mean?

It appears that the flight attendants have hit the glass ceiling and instead of breaking through it they are going around smashing everyones windows.

It is odd that we leave in a society where we cherish our differences while demanding equality. We are either equal or different and last time I checked communism didn't work so well.
Good Grief

Does anyone here truly believe that a Stewardess should make the same wage as a mechanic or a pilot?
Does anyone here think that getting you a drink or a pillow or an extra blankie because you are feeling cold, is as valuable as fixing a hydraulic line or landing a huge bird during an ice storm.
Does anyone here think that a Stewardess who knows how to point to all the exits after a two week course is as valuable as a pilot or mechanic who took years to learn what they know and must keep current on all updates.

And yes I did say Stewardess

The benchmark for ridiculous gets higher day by day.

I heard the union rep gal on Rutherford yesterday. What a joke. As a pilot (although not my career) it infuriates me that the cupcake schlepping the drink cart for the rubes in steerage would want to be paid the same amount as me.

In today's dollars, by the time you complete your private, commercial, multi-engine, IFR and airline transport pilot ratings you've sacrificed many years and spent in the neighborhood of $150,000.00. Yes, one hundred fifty THOUSAND dollars. And that only gets you to the minimum required hours before an airline would even consider looking at you. In addition to your training, throw in a university degree in engineering as a "must have" on your C.V. and you'll rank just a pube higher than the recent immigrant that sweeps out the hangar.

If Muffin and Barbie thinks this investment is comparable to a couple hundred bucks at the Clinique counter and rehersing "thanks for flying with us, bu-bye" then let me off this planet and ship me back to the gamma quadrant.

Hmmm, what's harder to do.....apply masquera and nurse the odd blister from wearing pumps that fit a little tight or trying to stay on the glideslope in heavy rain and lightning with a 40 knot crosswind and the cheif pilot critiquing your approach from the jump seat behind you?

Equal pay for equal value, my hairy ass. Pay equity is nothing but sissy whining by those who want a fast track to the head of the trough with no concept of paying one's dues.

Good grief.

Pilot training: multiple years and courses, probably in the order of $1 million to get to the First officer seat in commercial heavy. extensive Government testing - really tough tests + very tight physical/health requirements.

Aero Engineer (they are not "mechanics" ) minimum . . 2+ years tech school + extensive "equipment specifi" certification courses and very tough tests.

Flight Attendant - what is it, High School Leaving + a six week course ?? Maybe a bit longer ??

Not putting them down, just comparing the time/money/effort needed to "get in"

Kate--I know this may have been mentioned late last week, but I have been quite busy. Is the price tag on the election been tallied yet? Just curious--

him

Unless Marnie & Bonnie belongs to the machinists union, they're both in deep trouple for even thinking about touching those engines.

Back in the 60's K.C. Irving , then owner of Eastern Provincial Airlines who were on strike, said that the pilots were just a bunch of overpaid bus drivers.

Plus ça change...

In defense of flight attendants, they do go through quite a bit more training than serving cookies and point out the exits. They go through a ton of safety training, which *must* be updated yearly. In the event of an emergency, the flight attendants are extremely well prepared to save your life.

That said, they don't deserve the same money as a pilot. Not even close. I don't think you'll find too many flight attendants who'd realistically argue that they do, and I know a couple (but they work for WestJet, where common sense is #1).

This just the case of some militant feminist in a union going crazy.

Go git 'em Eskimo!

This case should be easy to solve except for the fact the Supreme Court will get a chance to show their activism once again. Simply take a group of flight attendants over to the Air Canada flight simulators and ask them to fly an Airbus or Boeing including various emergency procedures.

Next, take a group of pilots to the cabin of an airplane and see if they can reheat a meal and serve coffee. Then do the same with the mechanics and attendants.

I have a friend on the Calgary Fire Department and was amazed by the animosity that the men showed to the new female firefighters.
But after hearing about the many times that they had to stop what they were doing to help the shorter and weaker women turn a valve or lift a heavy piece of equipment, I began to understand.

A solution has been found. When a women takes maternity leave, a desk job can usually be found for her and they seldom return to the frontline.
Consequently CFD staffing levels are growing nicely with the city's population growth. Too bad it's not with the guys that actually put out the fires.

Doug,
"Result: Canada will have no competetive air carriers. period."

Ever hear of Westjet?

David, for the record Harry Steele was the owner of Eastern Provincial Airline (EPA) in the early 70's during the strike and the money quote was 'pilots were oversexed bus drivers'. I wonder who they were having sex with??

I wish airlines would opt out of using flight attendents altogether. Do you get a bus attendant while riding the Greyhound?

What safety do they provide us? We get a video showing the safety features of the plane. If the plane crashes we are all dead. If someone has a heart attack while in flight, I will bet a million dollars someone on board knows CPR.

They don't feed us anymore and could simply install a Coke machine with drinks (which will weigh less than the average Air Canada flight attendant. Have the honour system for pretzels. Hand out newspapers at the front counter of the gate (which they already do in many airports).

We have had airline passenger service for almost 70 years. The novelty of flying is gone. Everyone knows how to fly. The novelty of flight attendants should be gone too. That way they could pass the cost savings to me or give me a goddamn meal again.

As Donald Trump once said: you're fired.

"Canada's top court has given the country's human rights commission the go-ahead to investigate whether flight attendants should be paid the same as pilots and airline mechanics."

Teddy Kennedy's wet dream.

This is excellent news. My wife is a Lab Tech.

Most Lab Techs are female.
Most Surgeons are male.
Both work in the same "establishment" of healthcare
Surgeons make way more than Lab Techs.
Therefore, Lab Tech pay is descriminatory vs women.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

HAHAHA.. and those idiots spent 7yrs in training!

I guess this will spread to the Health industry next.Auxiliary staff nurses aides nurses doctors surgeons.i suppose shift work will all be considered the same too and do away with northern allowance.Buzz must be warming his hands

Meet Rosalie Abella, inventor of the hideous concept of "employment equity" in Canada:

"Abella, who is considered one of Canada's foremost experts in human rights law, has also been a chair of the Ontario Labour Relations Board and the Ontario Law Reform Commission, and a board member of the Ontario Human Rights Commission. She was also a member of the judicial inquiry on the Donald Marshall case.

Abella was the author of the 1984 federal Royal Commission on Equality in Employment, in which she coined the term employment equity, a strategy for reducing barriers in employment faced by women, non-whites, people with disabilities, and Aboriginal peoples in Canada.

Abella's appointment was not welcomed by Canadians opposed to "judicial activism". It is felt by some that she is too liberal and will greatly favor the expansion of Charter rights."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalie_Abella

David Warren on Abella:

"Canada's newly appointed Supreme Court Justice Rosalie Abella might adopt this as her own judicial motto. She is an embodiment of a class of people who genuinely believe themselves to be smarter than the rest of us, to be ahead on the historical curve. So far ahead, and moving so fast, that they cannot even hear the patter of the people running to keep up with them."

http://www.canadianjusticereviewboard.ca/Judgement%20calls%20by%20David%20Warren.htm

Judge Abella, who has spent only a very few months in the actual practice of law, has climbed up the political / legal ropes based on her reputation as a "human rights" activist. In fact, many of her decisions were based not on any established law, but rather on her own feminist ideology:

"In May 1998, Madam Justice Rosalie Abella on the Ontario Court of Appeal, decided in the Rosenberg case that homosexual partners are entitled to survivor benefits equivalent to legally married heterosexual couples under the Income Tax Act. In making this decision, Judge Abella ignored the 1995 decision of the Supreme Court of Canada in Egan and Nesbit, which held that the word 'spouse' applied to married couples only because of their unique contribution to society - namely by giving birth to and raising children."

http://www.realwomenca.com/analyses/analyses_01.htm

Is their a reason why SCC judges are paid more than their clerks?
or for that matter, the dog catchers that also work for the govenment?

I know this wouldn't be covered under it, but just think of the damage the SCC could do if there was no Notwithstanding clause.

Key word from Pravda/CBC's "listen-up dummies" article is "equal" and its corollary, equality. The SCC is a socialist engine driving the liberal-socialist agenda: domination by socialism. Resist. >>

An implicit assumption in liberal-socialism’s devotion to equality is that the natural state of any society is equality of income and other conditions. No historical or archeological evidence exists to support this assertion, which nonetheless is characterized as scientific. It is perfectly evident to all observers that there are vast inherent differences in people’s abilities and interests. Some are born more intelligent than others, some have superior athletic abilities, and others have the capacities to create and run businesses that add to the wealth of the whole of society.

Liberal-socialism must ignore these empirical facts and postulate that people’s accomplishments are the result, not of individual talent, but of the society in which they live. Thus, implicitly in socialistic theory, people’s incomes are merely loans from the government, which reserves the right to reclaim any or all of it at its whim.>>
http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article4472.html

Marc:

You are definitely on to something. Using the "logic" applied in this case, it is arguable that SCC justices and the law clerk or court reporter are working in the same "establishment"...ergo...pay equity!!!

Now all we have to determine is if the clerks get $380K pay & benefit package, or the Supremes get $50K.

When I was still a police officer and the Supremes were coming out with ridiculous and activist interpretations of the Charter, the standing joke around police & prosecutor circles was:

What do you call a lawyer in Canada who knows virtually nothing about criminal law or criminal investigative procedures?

Answer (of course): A justice of the Supreme Court of Canada

Cal,
I know, WestJet is great. I use them. But a dumbass ruling like this would force them into a dirt nap too.

Check please warrenkinsella - ha is fun just started!!!

FLASH.............

Brian Tobin has just announced that he does not intend to run for leadership of the Liberanos...

Latest information roundup is that the only people in Canada who have not yet ruled out running for the leadership are (a) Fred, the homeless guy that sleeps beside the bank machine on main street and (b) Belinduhh

Travelling on a airliner takes effort, the passengers should be redesignated as employees essentially they are required to perform certain funtions when riding a airliner, therefore because they certainly work in the same establishment as stewardesses they should get pay equity with the stewardesses.

since pay equity works both ways, i suggest that supreme court judges get paid the same as their staff........ lets be generous.....say $55,000.00

I agree with John, get rid of stewardesses. If we have an air marshall riding on every plane then we dont need anyone else to maintain law and order. If passengers need a meal then have a bistro bag lunch ready that they pick up as they go to the plane. This was(is) used by American Airlines and was a great alternative. Personally I have not felt the need to eat on a plane unless you are doing a flight longer than 6 hours.

Pay equity is another one of those weasel words that's supposed to make us feel warm and fuzzy. Where the real cost of it will come in is the establishment of the bureaucratic layer that determines which jobs are equal to other jobs that are totally unrelated. Anonologue referred to Real Women in his post. They have been fighting against pay equity for over 20 years. Especially in the private sector. It will kill small business.

Okay, I'm going to get flamed for this one.

FLIGHT ATTENDANTS (screw that 'stewardess' crap) do far more than just fluff pillows and hand out drinks. If you doubt that, do a bit of research into a) what the job really entails, and b) who got their throats slit on 9/11.

After flying MANY, MANY thousands of miles, and seeing how the 'traveling public' treats flight attendants, I'd say that they are entitled to a whopping large salary. Having to deal with drunks, jerks, and dimwits is a daily occurence. These are the people that you, the folks sitting in rows 1-99, rely upon to remain cool and controlled in the event of a crisis, direct you to an exit, instruct you on emergency landing procedures, and get you an aspirin when you have a headache. (Yeah - they do that.)

I won't try to weigh who is worth more, pilots, mechanics, or flight attendants. But if anyone thinks that they'd be able to deal with a major emergency without flight attendants - I'd like the name of their drug dealer, must have some really quality stuff. (And yes, I've had some emergencies come up in the air - and it wasn't the guy in the cockpit that took care of us. It was the folks there in the aisles. And I'm grateful they were there.)

Pay equity... So the union convinces some of it's members that the union should persue this asinine notion. Why? Because union dues are a percentage of your pay. Your pay goes up, so do the dues. Therefore more money in the union's kitty. Let's face it, union's are money-machines. Hell, the mob knew that 30 yrs ago! If you have any doubts... float a paycut past the union and listen to the howls from the union heads. That would put a serious crimp in their socializing and partying. No more annual meetings in Vegas :-O

hehehe... ya just gotta love the image the "welcome aboard..." announcement puts in yer mind :-P

So a nurses aide is worth the same as an MD?

A janitor sweeping out the Commons is worth the same as an MP?

Same establishment yes?

OK, OK, the janitor/MP example was a stretch...

I have an idea that would resolve this problem once and for all.

We transfer ownership of all property to the state. Noone gets paid anything, but everyone gets a free unheated one-room tenement apartment and is entitled to line up for a handful of flyblown "food".

Very important people (such as me who thought up the idea) also get a luxury dwelling, which I like to call a "dacha", out in the country.

No more whining about "pay equity".

Just might work!

joey w
I agree that being a flight attendant is not an easy job.
It's a good job for young adults that provides an opportunity for adventure and travel. But who would want to put up with that crap in their 40's and 50's. That's why Asian airlines are much more pleasant than most Western airlines, that are staffed by geriatric trolley dollies with union seniority and too many years in a basically boring job.
As far as getting training on getting ones throat slit, I once sent a proposal to the Vancouver School Board's Department of Continuing education.

"How to become a victim of Islamist Fanaticism."

I received a form letter reply that it would considered it if they received enough requests.
Happy to say that I?m still waiting.

Get rid of the flight attendants, they're mostly an irritation anyway...put vending machines for drinks and maybe put some kind of security personnel like air marshals or cops for emergencies.

D

I think you all took a stupid pill this morning. Your not seeing this through NDP certified rose coloured glasses. We need the supreme court to rule in favour of the flight attendants. Once thats in place then we can quit work and go on welfare. As this is feeding from the same traugh as the politicans we should automatically get the same pay and retirement bennifits. To any politico who objects to this we need merely point out, under these same conditions they should get the same pay as the primedictator. As they are addictated to the traugh they will acquiesce (its spelt right I looked it up) quickly. Ofcourse this would also mean a raise for the rest of us.

After reading all the comments I really think the most important point about this decision, if it can be called that, is not about the decision its self but about those who made it. In the true mode of those that appointed them, like minds indeed, and just as pathetic.

If there was an Oscar for blog incoherency, CAW would surely be nominated

Why do so many people not understand the basic principal of capatialism; no one gets paid what they "diserve" or what their work is "worth" they get paid what they can get.

As an independant contracting computer programmer I recieved $45 per hour straight out of university (after two years it is $75). Is this what I deserve or what my work is worth worth? No, my work is really no harder than a Janitor's job but my skill set is much much rarer and thus I can ask for (and recieve) more money.

Now a flight attendents skill set is pretty easy to come by; not to (completely) steriotype flight attendents, but you can go into a mall and throw a rock in any direction and find a reasonably attractive woman, who is sensitive and nice, who is willing to take crap from anyone for $10-$15 per hour. How hard is it to find someone who is certified to fly a jumbo jet and has a clean flight record? 1 in 1000? 1 in 10,000? I really don't know but I'm assuming it is unlikely that the malls are packed with them and that they're willing to fly these planes for $10-$15 per hour.

Not too much emphasis on written language competence at your university, eh NoOne

What is the problem with you people? Don't you know that there is an endless supply of money in this country and giving people more money is just something that they deserve! The bad corporations that employ these people are just making way too much money and have warehouses full of the stuff to give out if the SCC decides that all people should be paid the same as the highest wage earner! Stop complaining, what harm could there be??

Diction aside, NoOne's right. The whole premise of "pay equity" -- euphemism for "central planning" flies in the face of sustainable economic forces. In a free market wages are determined by the added value created by that labour and the scarcity of it. The flight attendants' union is essentially co-opting the human rights commission (an Orewellian moniker if ever there was one) to act as a de facto central planning commission. As there's no end to the number of groups that can potentially claim pay equity, better start queing up for the toillet paper!

joey w...without the "guys/gals" up front, you wouldn't even be in the air!!! What a load of malarky. And hey. Want to talk "pay equity"? A hooker screws the public just as much as a politician. Get your 10 grand out boys and girls for the next one!!

A plane was taking off from Kennedy Airport. After it reached a comfortable cruising altitude, the captain made an announcement over the
intercom, "Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Welcome to Flight Number 293, nonstop from New York to Los Angeles. The weather
ahead is good and, therefore, we should have a smooth and uneventful flight.
Now sit back and relax... OH, MY GOD!" Silence followed, and after a few minutes, the captain came back on the intercom and said, "Ladies and
Gentlemen, I am so sorry if I scared you earlier. While I was talking to you, the flight attendant accidentally spilled a cup of hot coffee in my
lap. You should see the front of my pants!" A passenger in Coach yelled, "That's nothing. You should see the back of mine!"

joey w,

While I agree with you that Flight Attendants are necessary on commercial flights, I disagree that they are entitled to a "whopping large salary", especially not a salary nearing what a pilot or mechanic earn.

It seems to me that the fundamental difference between these jobs is the amount of responsibility involved. The pilot is ultimately (and directly) responsible for the safety of all passengers on the flight, as well as for the actions of his crew. In an emergency, it is the pilot who is personally responsible for the lives of up to 450 people.

Similarly, a mechanic is personally responsible for the airworthiness of the aircraft and signs or stamps his name to that effect, after having received the authority to do so from Transport Canada. If there is a mechanical failure during a flight, it will be investigated, and if fault is found, the mechanic is liable.

Having to deal with drunks, jerks and dimwits may be annoying, but in the end, flight attendants make no important decisions regarding the flight or the maintenance of the aircraft, i.e., anything requiring responsibility. They simply facilitate safety procedures and (sometimes) make the flight more enjoyable.

jlchydro,

English language proficiency is not of utmost concern in most Computer Science and Engineering programs; in particular spelling is not a major concern. The reason for this is quite simple, about 1/3 of people in Computer Science and Engineering are ESL students, and if they focused too heavily on people’s spelling and grammar they would fail about 1/3 of their students by default.

I recognize that my spelling is not particularly good but being that I don’t bother people who have math skills that are so poor that they have problems calculating the tip at a restaurant (that is Humanities and Social Science majors) so I generally expect the same in return. If you can’t accept that please prove the Primary Decomposition Theorem in relation to Elementary Canonical Forms and get back to me (oh yeah, did I fail to mention my math degree, which prevented me wasting my time in pointless humanities courses to improve my written English?)

FlyByNight Air wants to hire flight attendants at whatever rate of pay. Marnie and Bonnie accept at the offered rate of pay. Where exactly is the problem?

As a Corporal in the Canadian Forces (we're not the 'Armed' Forces anymore, if no one noticed) I feel I should be paid as much as that pencil pushing officer shining his ass in Ottawa while he lines up a six figure job by kissing all the other shiny assed senior officers and beaucrats. I've risked life and limb while others in the same organization sit pretty and and try to find new ways to get themselves posted to Colorado or Brussels. That's just not right! ;)

Actually, I think I have a better case than the Flying Barbies who have the audacity to speak of there worth in the same breath as a pilot or the maintenance crew. If only Stalin had had an airline....

I wouldn't read to much into all this. Air Canada will use the ruling to their advantage anyway. For some unions, especially mine (IAMAW) negotiations are coming up mid 2006 and only pay is on the table, and I am not holding my breath for a pay raise, because the Air Canada Technical Services is a seperate enity and from what I understand, it is operating at a loss therefore no wage increase.

Air Canada never got the concessions it wanted from the workers (ie: massive pay cuts), but in my field of aircraft maintenance overhaul we are up against low cost American maintenance facilities and third world country facilities. We are good at what we do, if not the best in North America, but too expensive. It's funny, a car dealer can charge $95/hr, here $55 for aircraft maintenance is too expensive.

To be honest I expect my job to be outsourced in the near future to a third world country.

If any of you just watched President Bush's State of the Union address, looks like they want to sharpen their competitive edge meanwhile we concentrate on dulling ours...Air Canada's going to move their head office to Kentucky or somewhere next...along with Hudson's Bay Co., CP Rail and all the rest of our founding businesses...judicial activism...disgusting concept.

D

This is a silly arguement.

Fundamentally, I agree that flight attendants are important to the 'safety aspect' of a flight; however, they are no more important than that of a bus driver (in the event of an accident), or a cruise ship attendant (in the event of an accident).

Let me be very clear, aircraft accidents are are 'scary' (like Stephen Harper... haha sorry..), but so are busses, subways, boats, trains, etc, etc.

Pilots go to school and apprentice for about 8 years before they can fly commercial planes (with terrible pay). They do not deserve to make the same amount of pay as flight attendents! This is a no-brainer!

The Government has no business in this!

Re: State of the Union speech

Pres. Bush also set the goal of replacing more than 75% of ME oil by 2025 through advanced energy technologies.

Kind of blunts the criticism that the U.S. is in Iraq for the oil.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/01/20060131-6.html

Doesn't Hooters have their own airline yet?? Maybe their attendants would be worth more than the pilots ha ha. I am not sure "Barbies" is a term that applies anymore, at least not on some of the AC trips I have taken.

I'm awake for roughly the same amount of time each day as the CEO of Air Canada. Does that qualify?

Careful DougL...next thing you know, the gov't will be trying to levy 'Consciousness Tax' for how long we're awake every day. :)

These blog thingies need spell checking... :)

:D

Perhaps the SCC should also look into making any pay-equity adjustments apply to all other indutries, businesses, government offices, etc. and while they are at it , make the adjustments retroactive for the duration of ones' career.

That way, I stand to collect a huge bundle to compensate me for the injustice of having been paid so much less than the CEO's of the companies I worked for over the last 30 years.

Gee, thanks Air Canada FA's! I think you are really on to something here. :))

I doubt anyone would ever disagree with the idea of equal pay for equal work.

But that's not what "equity" is about.

It's a bureaucratic weasel-word and represents a specious concept: equal pay for work of equal value.

Want to make the same much money a pilot makes?

Become a pilot.

Oops!

Typo alert. Fourth line should have read:

Want to make the same money a pilot makes?

Mea culpa!

Precisely, JJM. Equity and equality are two separate words/concepts. That being said, if Canada wasn't such a limp wristed nation of sissies, always suffering from so-called low self-esteem and jealousy that somewhere out there there is another Canadian that has one more dollar than you, this pay equity charade could be nipped in the bud.

The only "equity" I support is equal pay for IDENTICAL work. Anything else is candy assed social engineering.

If the flight attendants at Air Canada were all happy what would happen to their motto:

"Service with a sneer"

Just curious: where do you people get the idea that "pay equity" eans that everyone gets the same salary? It doesn't. It simply means that the same standard of job classification should apply to all employees of an establishment. That means that if (for example) you base a salary partly on "education and training" in a job classification scheme, you cannot weight this factor differently for women than for men for comparable jobs.

In the federal government, if I remember correctly, more than forty different job classification schemes existed at the time of the pay equity decision, each weighting qualifications differently, and some in an outright discriminatory fashion when jobs were compared.

The unions wanted one Universal Classiciation System, but even to this day it doesn't exist. I know that people here want the market to decide all this, but I would point out that most major corporations do have a single classification scheme (e.g., Hayes), and that assuredly does not mean that everyone from CEO to cleaner gets the same wage.

"Establishment" as used in pay equity legislation simply means the business under review. That should be a pretty simple concept to grasp, but Air Canada actually tried to make the case that establishment = bargaining unit. That didn't, er, fly. Clearly pilots, mechanics and flight attendants work in the same establishment. Hence they should be rated under one job classification scheme. Seems about right to me.

(As an aside, interesting to see Anonalogue, or Ottawa Core, or whatever he's calling himself these days, cite an organization with neo-nazi links.)

Dawg - out of curiosity (and I have no idea what you're talking about re: neo-nazi) but have you ever written approvingly or cited Castro-worshipping Trudeau?

All i can say, after reading all this is one thing, It's really pathetic how MOST of you feel about Flight Attendants, contrary to your comments, (mostly sexist), and unless you've done this job, will never really understand why we're onboard, we just have to look at Air France incident in Toronto last August to understand that their jobs went WAY beyond serving a "blankie", or making sure your requests are answered to... This is what they said in the news that day:

"And how the passengers got out, we talked to a couple of them here at the CBC, one guy on the phone said the lights went off and lost power, but he applauded the crew, saying they evacuated everybody in an orderly way, pulled out those slides.

And how many sitting on a plane when you're getting on a plane actually listen to that safety instruction all the time?"

And yet another:
"(in the)news they said yesterday, that the plane was evacuted in about 90 sec. This seems incredibly fast, but even if it took longer, the crew made really an excellent job to get anyone out. Bravo."

This is the REAL reason why flight attendants are on your flight, and why most people survive a crash of that magnitude...

I'd like to see a vending machine, as suggested by some of you, try and pull you out of your seat...

What an insult!!

Trudeau? TRUDEAU? You've GOT to be kidding, Kate. I despised the man. I hated his egoism, his arrogance, his shrugging off opposition, his macho posturing...Don't get me started. I've never said a nice thing about that man in my life.

I was referring to RealWomen of Canada. You can read all about the Anne Hartmann connection in my good friend Warren Kinsella's book, Web of Hate.

In a nation where bureaucrats determine wages according to their definition of equity, it won’t be long before those same bureaucrats are the highest compensated employees in the country. Nobody is more valuable than a bureaucrat, in their own estimation.

Actually, I agree with the concept of pay equity. Cut the pay of pilots to the level of trolley dollies.

This is CUPE trying to drive their Femi/Nazi agenda.

The requirement to get on as a Flight Attendant at Air Canada is a High School Education, a Second Language (not a big one for 90% of Quebecers, which is where a large percentage come from) and a Pulse.

Flight Attendant's are firmly in the Un-skilled, to at best Semi-Skilled job category. The Big Airlines/Big Unions have turned it a simple Job into a career.

There is no pre-requisite education or skill required. What little they know is taught to them by the Airline and the Unions have made it out to be Brain Surgery

Wardair had it figured out, keep them Young, Good Looking and Stupid. Treat them poorly and they'll do it for a couple of years and move on.

The travelling public loved Wardair's service. The Flight Attendants provided great service and moved on before becoming burned-out Sky Hags.

I remember PWA Flight Attendants going on strike, I believe it was the early 80's?

They were hiring like crazy for 'replacement workers,' a neighbor gal took a job.

The entire training was THREE DAYS!!

Blessed by the Government.

"Wardair had it figured out, keep them Young, Good Looking and Stupid. Treat them poorly and they'll do it for a couple of years and move on."

Yadda, yadda. Lucky Uli Derickson didn't work for a company like that.

"The requirement to get on as a Flight Attendant at Air Canada is a High School Education, a Second Language (not a big one for 90% of Quebecers, which is where a large percentage come from) and a Pulse."

You forgot the bitchy attitude....

God you guys are a pathetic bunch!!

Flyerguy must be an Air Canada Steward.

The only thing Pathetic is your Union and it's lack of reality.

Actually if you read the synopsis of the Air France crash you will find that it was the PILOT who made sure the plane was empty - the flight attendants were long gone at that point. I fly every week and appreciate the service by the guys/girls in the back but frankly would do just fine without them.

The flight attendants have argued that they are really there for safety but if that was true, they'd all be 220lb six foot firefighters so they could carry people out the exits, overpower drunks, etc. What's really telling is that when they do have a problem with a customer... they call the captain back to deal with it. The captain has ultimate command over the airplane and its passengers. NOBODY can override him. He can ignore Air Traffic Control, flight attendants, air marshals, police as long as he believes he is acting to preserve the safety of the airplane. There is a reason they use the term Pilot-in-Command. The head flight attendant is called a purser ("The officer in charge of money matters on board a ship or commercial aircraft." - American Heritage Dictionary).

This is a totally stupid decision and actually makes a case for the notwithstanding clause and/or creating a process whereby justice's can be removed for incompetence.

This isn't a guy/girl argument... there are lots of women pilots and guy flight attendants. There is no pay difference between the sexes for the same role. This is just plain STUPID!!!

Kate, incidentally, you know they never serve drinks while you're stuck on the tarmac. Not even coffee. God knows why, but I've suffered through hours of this in my time. You get the complimentary drinks once in a blue moon, but only when you're airborne.

Dr. Dawg, you should direct that question to an "official" of Transport Canada... As it is they who set the rules you don't understand...
To answer "Ken" , i am NOT unionised and DO NOT work for Air Canada.. What by the way do you do for a living??

"Dr. Dawg", you should direct that question to an "official" of Transport Canada... As it is they who set the rules you don't understand...
To answer "Ken" , i am NOT unionised and DO NOT work for Air Canada.. What by the way do you do for a living??

Flyerguy: I'm aware of that. It wasn't a knock on the flight attendants. I was referring to Kate's opening salvo.

I was simply aswering your question, in case you were about to blurt something stupid about vending machines or something.. lol!!!

By the way "Barry", some of those Wardair f/a' s moved to Canadian before being merged with Air Canada.. So guess what... there still around!! :)

Now that some airlines allow you to serve yourself homemade baloney sandwiches & coffee, does this mean that you'll also be allowed to take turns with other passengers flying the plane?

Mike said "I'm all for equal pay for equal work, but......"

EVERYONE is for equal pay for equal work. The problem is, pay equity has nothing to do with that concept. Pay equity is based on the notion that a difference in pay between a group that is predominately female and another group that is predominately male must be justified on the basis of one having more "value" than the other. When doing so, you can't consider factors such as the number of people who are vying for the same job; the amount others in the same industry are paid; how distasteful the job is; or the relative amount of brainpower required to do the job. It matters not that there is a critical shortage of qualified commercial pilots, all that matters is the minimum standard for the position. For example, a pilot doesn't need a university degree. Under education, therefore, he (since pilots are predominately male) receives the same number of points as the flight attendant. Get enough "same number of points", and you have a valid pay equity complaint. The entire system has cost taxpayers tens of billions of dollars, and will continue to do so until the legislation (brought in, believe it or not, under Mulroney) is totally repealed.

Dr. Dawg said a lot, most of it completely valid, but some of which is somewhat misleading.

"(Pay equity) simply means that the same standard of job classification should apply to all employees of an establishment."

You've corrected this misconception in your example, but just to be clear, pay equity leads to a standard of job classification, one that must be applied to all employees of an establishment - that part is accurate - but that is not what pay equity is or means. Pay equity means that once jobs are classified, you MUST base your salary decisions on that job classification system. It therefore requires that the establishment become a micro-economy for the purpose of salary administration, unable to compare outside the establishment.

"I would point out that most major corporations do have a single classification scheme (e.g., Hayes)"

Most major corporations have a single classification scheme because most major corporations are required to do so under the same pay equity legislation that imposed the requirement on the federal public service. Examples: The insurance industry, financial services (but not credit unions), and banks.

Dr. Dawg, in using the term neo/nazi to refer to the Real Women of Canada, you've used demagoguery of the worst kind. Was the point that was raised valid or not? You have the intelligence to address ideas, and you should use it.

Patrick:

"Dr. Dawg, in using the term neo/nazi to refer to the Real Women of Canada, you've used demagoguery of the worst kind."

Actually, I referred to the links the organization had with that brand of far-Right extremism. Surely there are other sources that one could quote to make the same point? Granted, that was not an argument against the point made--I made that argument in other ways--just a note for the discerning here.

Your points about pay equity are not that far off my own. Do you have a problem with a classification plan per se? In any case, thank you for the points you raised. I agree with them, except that I think banks are exempt, at least in Ontario.

Patrick:

"Pay equity is based on the notion that a difference in pay between a group that is predominately female and another group that is predominately male must be justified on the basis of one having more 'value' than the other."

I still fail to grasp the difficulty you are having with the notion that differential treatment of women and men in the workplace, with respect to remuneration based upon their respective skills and knowledge, can be discriminatory.

Let me give only one example. Years ago, when I was living in England, a TV show aired about this new concept, pay equity. It looked at a pottery, I believe in Staffordshire, and the wages paid there. Women were employed to paint the china--a job of enormous skill, including hand-gilding of the rims and hand-painting floral designs on plates and cups. Men were employed, inter alia, to sweep up the scraps of china around the kiln. Guess who got paid more? Is this fair?

You want the market to decide. But the decisions the market makes can discriminate against individuals on the basis of race, gender, you name it. Is it sound public policy to "let the market decide" in these instances? Not in the kind of society I want.

By the way "Barry", some of those Wardair f/a' s moved to Canadian before being merged with Air Canada.. So guess what... there still around!! :)

You are correct, after the merger between Wardair and Canadi>n the ex-Wardairs JOBS became careers at Canadi>n.

Up until that time the Wardair F/A doors were swinging.

Whoops. Reification alert. "The market" doesn't decide anything. People decide. If they decide in a discriminatory fashion, is that not an appropriate point for intervention? If not, how would one logically oppose, say, Jim Crow in hiring?

Simply put, "Pay Equity" is nothing more than a government mandated vehicle whereby anyone can ask to be paid the same amount as someone else, even if that other person does a different job than you. the only qualification is that you "feel" you are worth the same as the other. (Which is typically MORE).

C'mon you limp wristed lefties, this is all about advocacy for the lazy under the guise of that good 'ol socialist catch phrase of "low self-seteem" (read: "this isn't fair....how come she gets....why can't I have....there ought to be a law....I'm worth twice that amount....")

Go and get your frickin' pilots license, Bambi. Until then, shut your world-owes-me-a-living pie hole.

Gosh "ESKIMO"... I think the North is calling ... buh-bye!!

truth hurts, huh? (flyerguy)

"limp wristed lefties"...blah, blah...

Finally. Sound thinking and argument from the Right.

Tavvauvutit,
Issorartuyok

Wow, look at the moon bats heading right for the bug zapper. Ahhh, my work is done here....

Finally... Your answering your calling in life... lol!!

I believe the issue was raised to get the hint across to Air Canada management that flight attendants are not pee-ons! We have an important job up in the air just like the pilots. I dont agree we should get paid the same, however we deserve the same respect. Yes they land us safely, but if they don't they are the first to get out and do not come back to save a passengers life, that is the job of the flight attendant. At most airlines when it comes to contract negotiations, the pilots usually have the upper hand, where the flight attendants get royally screwd. We are not asking to make 100K a year, we are asking to be treated as a person not a employee number. I also believe this whole issue was brought on by CUPE, because flight attendant contract negotiations for wage reopening are up this summer, and they should fight for what we lost a few years ago. Especially since our President gave 300 million to the share holders as an advance, than give his own employee's their money back that they lost in wage cuts while going thru bankruptcy. We also deserve more credit for busting our backs while Milton and Brewer continue with cut backs. The company does not see that when removing flight attendants from flights to save money not only puts the safety in question, but it also does not get your cocktail in your hand faster, and lets face it, those business class passengers care more about getting their jackets hung up and their drink than if there is sufficient crew onboard to evacuate properly.

I see AirCanaduh had to pay for a fellows Westjet tickets because he arrived to late (45 minutes before) against their one hour rules.He had to buy Westjet tickets at a cost of 1400$ fifteen minutes before they left , but none the less made his destination.

As they say at AirCanada "We're not happy until your not happy"

nothing like a union shop to frustrate life.

Hey Cal2, That incident had NOTHING to do with the fact that there are unions at Air Canada, but rather the policy from Corp. Headquarters to get the flight out on time... so blame the higher heads for the rule... oh, are you a "higher head"??

westjets flight made it out on time with passengers going on 15 minutes before. AirCanada shut the gate at one hour before.

I know how the union workers love to stand on policy as much they like to stand around. Sometimes they are the managements best friend.

Flyerguy:

You have to understand, you DO NOT deserve the same treatment as the Pilots.

F/A's are a dime a dozen.

They line-up for blocks at "Cattle Drives" to be hired. There is almost zero requirement, essentially walk right out of High School.

Just as the Pilot's don't deserve the same treatment as the CEO etc. Understand that there is a 'food chain' in life and F/A's are (due to the education requirements etc) a long way down.

Now..that doesn't mean you do not have an important job and get a fair renumeration. Certainly working in a Union environment, for a legacy Carrier like Air Canada you are MORE than fairly compensated for doing a job that you could be replaced in a heart beat.