Now it really gets tricky. For those not schooled in foreign policy; they will need a crash course.

This election will make Middle East foreign policy even more difficult as Israeli and Arab camps are further polarized making peace even more difficult to achieve.

A few foreign policy Solomon's for Israel will be needed.

One can only hope that this does not necessarily lead to violent clashes any more than are currently in progress. This does not bode well for the Arab or Israeli worlds. But then we have had our own problems with corruption haven't we?
This has added a couple of thorns to the rose bush. When will the flower of peace flourish? When we all develop some good will I gather.

AwCrap!

That's pretty scary. And Belmont is overloaded so I can't even read the whole thing. Thank God we have Harper & not Dithers at the helm.

Iraqi WMD in Syria

Methinks a Conservative victory couldn't have come at a better time, for Canada or for Israel. Now, finally, there is a small chance Canada will join the lists in battle against the likes of Hamas instead of letting them keep an office in Ottawa.

About bloody time.

Chris: Debka reported this during the war but it as Debka is not always right, the report was heavily discounted and I don't think anyone followed up.

Interesting to see it confirmed from an inside source.

Hamas shares a political victory with the Conservatives both ran against corrupt governments.

The fate of thousands may, unfortunately, already be sealed in this.

The matter of the middle east hinges upon either W making democracy work (although the Left is working damn hard to make sure it doesn't).

Or that things heat up more quickly with Iran and someone pulls the trigger. In that case, Tehran will end up a glass parking lot.

SO lefties, I think you've already made your choice---nuclear war with Islam. Swallow that.

Prepare
yourself for the unthinkable: war against Iran may be a necessity

Source: TimesonlineUK:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,19269-2011570,00.html

It’s too bad the world is slowly creeping towards its own destruction. I’ll miss the good things about it.

Since Israel, the US and EU have banned Hamas as a terrorist organisation and have said they do not want to deal with it, this could get real interesting. Crazy Iran is the key.

I think Israel shouldn't wait for Iran to nuke it.

Eugene, considering the type of childish insults and personal attacks you direct at me on your own site, I'll invite you to sod off and discuss this issue with your own (non-existant) readers.

Call me naive (and you wouldn't be the first), but I think that Hamas being elected as the government of the Palestinian Authority is not all bad.

The most important development of this situation is that Hamas can no longer operate in the shadows. They now constitute the ruling party of a sovereign government, one which is increasingly accountable in their thoughts and deeds. Right now, there is a lot of goodwill for the Palestinian cause among foreign governments. But one must realistically ask: how long could these governments support terror operations against Israel? It is one thing to support the actions of an organization that is not accountable to the demanding mistress of foreign relations and internal governance. It is quite another to endorse the government of a nation who supports and even funds terror operations. Any government who would do so would also have to look over their own shoulders for fringe elements whose agenda would include carrying out terrorist acts on their own soil (read: what's good for the goose is good for the gander).

Unless Hamas is willing to allow the rest of the world to cease seeing them as 'freedom fighters', they will need to moderate their actions to appear as a legitimate government.

If (hopefully) this is true, this will put pressure on the Israeli government to act. This will be as moderate as Hamas will ever be. If Israel is willing to make some meaningful concessions, perhaps Hamas can be convinced to bridge the gap and therefore abandon terrorism to achieve their ends in favour of meaningful dialogue. As much as the election of Hamas represents a peak of tensions between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, it may also present the opportunity to make meaningful progress (read: the Chinese use the same word for crisis and opportunity).

I'll never forget when I lived in the US and my only source of Canadian TV news was CBC's Newsworld cable channel - now owned by Al Gore.

I remember 3 things that really toasted my bagel:

1) I want Canadian news. CBC has an hour long program, 5 minutes of Canadian news that begins 15 minutes into the program, and the rest is international.
2) The show always started off with something anti-Bush. Usually "2 people and a cactus were injured in fighting in Iraq today." I'm living in the US. I can get all the US news I want from better journalists than the CBC can afford. And;
3) How very anti-Israel CBC is. Nothing struck me more than how their reports always blamed the Israelis. It was usually "Israel helicopters fired a rocket into a house and killed a Hamas leader today" but they never finished with the whole story which would read "...in retaliation for a suicide bomber that killed 75 children at a day care center in Tel Aviv yesterday."

CBC is going to have some serious pressure on them to get the story right now that power has changed and they find themselves included in the accountability of government programs.

When in this world will we stop listening to the likes of Howard Dean, John Kerry, Paul Martin all left media in the US and Canada and all anti-semitics and Israel haters( many housed at the UN)When will we clean UP that organization we tolerate at our peril?
Frankly, I think that it is appropriate that Hamas has won the Palestinian election for it now the focus is where it belongs: Palestinians ARE terrorists and now it is official!
Now that we have that out of the way, maybe Israel can get down to protecting themselves anyway they know how and the rest of us making sure the US kicks butt and stops taking it on the chin over Iraq, Iran and N Korea!
IF there is another world war and this one a nuke one the blame lies WITH the left entirely!
This is a world conflict and has been for years.
9/11 should have made that clear for all time. Those who have forgotten it may be leading us into the maw of HELL if we do not crush this NOW.
And we had bloody well better be onside THIS time.-

There is a distinction between being critical of Israel and being anti-israeli. And yes I admit that there are those on the left who are anti-israeli. But that isn't the only way to be. There is a critical middle ground and all sides has some unecessary blood under their fingernails.

I'm optimistic that over the next thirty years Israel and Palestine will come to something of an accomodation. That's not to say that things don't have room to get worse before they get better.

A terrorist group morphing into a political party isn't necessarily a bad sign. Look at the IRA and Sinn Fein. You can't say that Sinn Fein's entrance into mainstream politics didn't have a defusing effect on the troubles in Northern Ireland.

Hamas has just gained a lot more power but now they have to do something they never did before. They have to worry about opinion polls.

I think that might turn out to be a good thing.

Who is Eugene? He just got nuked.

Listened to Adler today on this. I forget his guest's name. Conclusion: that Hamas being elected reveals the real values of Palestinians. They really do want Israel wiped out. The pretense is over. There is no hiding it. Adler and guest also predicted the inevitable leftist reaction such as Eugene that the vote was against corruption. They pointed out that the Palestinians wanted Fatah (sp?) in because they were anti-Israel. They got a gov't that was corrupt and didn't care about them. They've voted Hamas because they are anti-Israel and guess what? They've got a gov't that will be corrupt and not care about them. Maybe next time they'll know better. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

This is a CP article about Stephen Harper's press conference posted about an hour ago. One quote:

"With a startling efficiency quite foreign to his predecessor, Canada's soon-to-be 22nd prime minister set about meeting the national news media - and by extension the Canadian electorate - in the foyer of the House of Commons."

You should really STOP! and read the entire article to get a good grasp of the organization, direction, and pace the Stephen Harper government is setting. I found it quite remarkable.

Jose,
You made the fatal mistake believing that Paleos think like Westerners. You are sadly wrong. Hamas gives squat about polls. All they want is to kill every last Jew and American. Got that? EVERY LAST JEW AND AMERICAN. That's their platform.

Thanks Chris for the link. Aside from the juvenile jabs at the US in the report, it is quite clear that Harper is truly brilliant. I predict he will rank among the top PMs of Canada. Next election: Majority. Harper now commands respect.

Back on topic. Get a load of this.

Another Deluded Leftist Believes Money Solves all Problems--Even in the Middle East

Doug – One does not make democracy work overnight, nor is it a panacea. The short term issue is the barbaric regime controlling Iran, who at minimum have the "soft" backing of co-religionists world-wide on the principle of Israel's non-existence (if not the mechanism), an emergent technical ability to engage in nuclear terrorism, and who are temporarily shielded by the geopolitics of Russian alignment and European myopia.

Once Iran has matured their nuclear capability, which is anywhere from 6 months to 2 years (depending on the effect they are after and the availability of U235), their “weltanschauung” effectively demands they use it immediately – a “working test” as it were. The only presently-feasible means to prevent this is preemptive air strikes against infrastructure; no country or coalition can project a ground war with any degree of success under current time constraints.

I am not sanguine that any nation will actually deal preemptively with Iran, although this is the best option. This leaves post-facto responses. The most likely is that Israel would exercise a “Masada safeguard” – a phrase coined by an obscure author of speculative fiction for what is essentially a pyrrhic victory. This would undoubtedly trigger a very unpleasant worldwide response, and diminish any moderate Islamic voices.

Henry

Doug,

I would agree that the situation with Palestine is far worse than Northern Ireland. But ultimately it isn't a novel development in the grand scheme of human history. These kinds of conflicts do get resolved. Usually with the opposition forces moving into the mainstream.

Spain also has had its own terrorist problem for the past few decades. Its still a problem but the development of a pro-Basque democratic voice in Spain has taken a lot of the winds out of their sails.

And there's nothing to say that Hamas won't get voted out next election. Um, yes I'm kind of hoping this isn't the last Palestine election before judgement day.

Further to my earlier comment, this is nice to see:

"Harper rebuked the U.S. ambassador on Thursday for rejecting Canada's claims to the Arctic.

Harper, whose Conservatives won a fragile mandate in Monday's election, said during the campaign that Prime Minister Paul Martin had needlessly exacerbated ties with the United States.

But Harper showed little hesitation in slapping down U.S. envoy David Wilkins for making critical remarks about Conservative plans to boost Canada's presence in the far north.

"The United States defends its sovereignty, the Canadian government will defend our sovereignty," Harper told reporters during his first news conference since the election.

"It is the Canadian people we get our mandate from, not the ambassador of the United States."

Doug,

So true. Or at least see them reduced to Dhimmi status, and pay the tax to the Muslims. Coming soon to a mosque near you. (oops! sorry. "now playing")

More of interest and blessed relief: - hopefully the end to Canada directly financing the indoctrination of Mandate Arab schoolchildren with bloodthirsty celebration of Jew and Christian killing in the name of Allah and Holocaust Denial and teaching of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in textbooks, etc...
Thank G-d Pettigrew is now toast.
David Bedein had a nice expose of how it was: - "Pierre Pettigrew Answers Palestinian Policy Questions" http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Jan-17-06.htm

Henry: -

I think the term you're reaching for is "Samson Option"...and I doubt somehow it would result in anything other than more 'seething in the Arab Street': - Israel has certainly several hundred atomic bombs, possibly hydrogen bombs as well, and delivery systems that put Moscow, Paris and Mecca within easy reach.

You really really really don't want to see a bomb on Tel Aviv. Remember that dictum, "Once Burned, Twice Shy". :-(

Gee, what a suprise. Palestinians want their government to hate jews every bit as much as they do. The election is legit and democratic. It does express the will of the people who voted.

Israel has existed for this long only because the arabs cant agree to co-operate to wipe them out. There is no arab country that could elect a moderate government in regards to Israel. Arabs hate jews. Full stop. Persians hate jews. Kurds hate jews. Turks hate jews.

Mutually assured destruction is Israel's only hope, long term. Even then I have my doubts about it lasting forty or fifty more years. The arabs will get their shit together eventually.

Henry,

There has been widespread speculation that Isreal will pre-empt Iran with a conventional airstrike. It wouldn't be difficult for them to do and they don't need to use nukes. And there isn't much Iran can do to stop that from happening.

And yes I do hope for a poltical solution before we get to that point. But if that solution isn't reached I'd support Isreal delivering a few tonnage worth of ordance Iran's way and I'm not the only lefty that feels that way.

But let's not start another war just yet. We've already got two pots on the boil. Give peace a chance, failing that a few Israeli pilots can earn some serious bragging rights. Either way no one in the west is really going to mourn the ending of Iran's nuclear program.

Colin,
I believe you're correct in general about the "Arab World", but incorrect regards the Kurds and Turks, of which at minimum large minorities of whom have both dealings with and (albeit sometimes grudging) admiration for, the Jews and the Jewish State.

As to the eventual outcome, I think there's going to be a confrontation between the West as we know it, and Islam, long before the "Arabs get their shit together", so your speculation is moot.

Colin,

You mention Turks hating Jews. That may very well be true but it was announced today that Turkey has agreed to sell water to Israel. Not the kind of enterprise that two countries bent on mutual anihilation embark on.

Canada on the other hand refuses to sell water to the United States. And we've got a lot more of it to spare than Turkey does. Kind of makes you think doesn't it?

Jose,
Essentially, Western Appeasement Diplomacy has just now evidenced the sacrificial offering of some 6 million Jews (Israeli) on the altar of "Democracy", and while US soldiers die horribly to bring civil freedom and choice to Iraqis, and Canadian soldiers risk and lose their lives daily doing the same in Afganistan, their State Department and our Infernal Affairs Department have midwifed a full-blown terrorist state (let alone, "terror-sponsoring), a veritable 'Taliban-regime'in the very Heartland of the Jewish State...all in name of 'giving peace a chance'...

I don't buy it.

Good point about the water, Jose. BTW - NOW would be a pretty good time to see the Kurds get their own state, finally. They've certainly evidenced more state-craft and compromise in the doubtfull efforts in Baghdad than the Mandate Arabs have in the last 100 years....
I think Iraq would have been better served, served up 'in pieces'. South, Central, and Kurdish.
Ya, it would've made the Turks nervous, and that's why it didn't happen. Need that access to Incirlik.

Hamas drops call for Israel's destruction

Kate,
See, didn't I tell you you are Canada's answer to Charles Johnson?

BBC is also very anti-Israel, (and Bush). Watching the invasion of Iraq on BBC, Fox and CNN, it was clear that the most level coverage was Fox.

Its my understanding that Hamas has a social services arm in Palestine that makes it popular with the average person voting. I'm sure nothing about the whole mess is simple . As we (the unaffected) muse and fuss about how it should be unraveled, we should also remember that on every winning and losing side are everyday people just trying to get by and keep their families safe. Its never just a homogenous group of hateful murderers.

I'm booked to go to Lebanon next week. Do you think its a bad time....?

Hi Just call me Naive/Joseph -
Would love to know what concessions you are talking abt!! "If Israel is willing to make some meaningful concessions, perhaps Hamas can be convinced to bridge the gap and therefore abandon terrorism to achieve their ends in favour of meaningful dialogue."
How many Jews just shivered, I wonder? You do know that the Palestinian map does not include Israel? And it hangs on their walls - in their schools - and no one could make that up!
Educate yourself before speaking.

Steve: - "Hamas Drops Call for Israel's Destruction!"

"Pig's Fly!"

;-)

Doug...Hmmm! Well if the Lizard Army arrives here, Kate better buy more bandwidth! Now, where's that 'tipjar'... :-)

Nice to see that the PM 'expressed displeasure' about Hamas victory. Leave it to CP to qualify that he didn't 'formally close any doors'.

Pathetic attempts at spin. Our 'little-travelled' PM yet knows enough to distinguish blood-cult murderers from legitimate 'negotiating partners'...I don't expect to see Canada leading any charge to recognize the New Taliban.

Tiburon,

The Kurds effectively have their own state right now. They control their own security and they're consolidating just about everything else that a state need to get control of. They're savvy enough to know that seperating from Iraq now and calling themselves Kurdistan would be counterproductive. I don't have a crystal ball on Iraq's future but I suspect the Kurds might prove to be its saving grace.

L, By all means go to Lebanon. Enjoy yourself and be a good cultural ambassador for the west. Tourism often (not always) increases cultural understanding. The more positive Muslims are to western culture they better.

So turn them on to western music and party it up with the Lebanese as much as you can. That's the biggest blow the west can strike against the violent islamic fringe, take away their popular support from within their own constituencies.

thanx gellen

when I hear comments about 'concessions' by the Jews, after the rivers of blood (equivalent per capita to ten - 9-11's) - literally everyone in the country touched by the murders...I just can't find a way to answer, for the ignorance shown is just too enormous.
Unfortunately, the same ignorance went all the way up to the halls of power in Canada, as you'll see from my link above.
We can pray that the MSM wake up from their pacifist dreams, in time to responsibly educate 'the masses'....that we are in the opening battles of a War that may last generations...
As Gregory Peck said in "The Guns of Navaronne", like it or not "You're in it, now".

And to those who might say it doesn't involve us here in the Great White...I'd say go watch "African Queen" with Bogie again, and re-read Hemmingway's "Islands in the Stream"...

It's a World War, and either we successfully drag the Islamofascists into the 21st Century, or they'll drag us back to the 7th.

Jose,

Good points and analysis, both: - The Kurds DO have a 'near defacto' state, and may yet prove the 'saving' of the Iraqi experiment. They've no love for the Syrian and Iranian imported and sponsored terrorists/terror, and may emerge yet the 'kingmakers' in the equation.

And regards Lebanon, man you are right. But I fear that only among the Christian Lebanese would one find the courage for such pluralism - in the Muslim communities the iron hand of the 'religious police', be they Hamas or Hizbollah, effectively represses all Western expression. I 'feel' for these cultures - not everyone can be a Palazzi, or a Whalid Shoebat...it is a nightmarish culture, brutally sexist, violently authoritarian and totalitarian, cruel.

gellen,

I'm not denying Israel has already made commendable concessions. And if there were clear solutions, bigger heads than mine surely would've suggested as such by now.

But we need to work on the assumption that the majority of people on both sides want peace, and not to wonder whether they might be caught in the next crossfire.

Perhaps I overextended myself. Really, Israel would win the support of the international community merely by continuing to work towards a lasting solution. Recent history tends to show that political power dampens the desire of fringe groups to continue an agenda of terror; look at Sinn Fein. Right now the ball is in Israel's court and if they're willing to keep working towards peace, there will be an incredible amount of pressure on Hamas to not break the faith.

If there was one thing that drove me permanently away from the left it is the seemingly inherent anti-semitism. It is practically required of leftists that they oppose the existence of Israel, and that they make doctrine-addled excuses for armed groups of young men who celebrate with grins and laughter the targetted mass murders of women and children. Looming large just barely below the surface is the attitude that "the Jews deserve it".

Anti-semites on the right are a tiny minority, defined as nutbars, who are appropriately vilified. On the left, anti-semitism brings accolades, peace prizes, and validates one as a truly progressive thinker. There has never been a prejudice so septic and so vile, and so deeply, profoundly, inherently hypocritical. It's transparent as drool, and it's perpetual.

Tiburon,

I live in Brighton, Uk and I regularly party with immigrant muslim boys that observe Ramadan. They're thoroughly muslim but also thoroughly into western culture.

Believe it or not there are blogs by Americans who have travelled through Iran and claim that the Iranians were the friendliest people they ever met. Some of them reported that they were asked for western media every day. Strangely enough the most sought after item was american pornography.

Perhaps we should be establish Jenna Jamieson as our cultural ambassador?

I think people should think twice before calling anyone "anti-Israel" or "anti-American" or anti-anything else. I am Jewish and staunchly pro-Israel, but I have no problem being critical of Israeli government policy. I'm critical of Bush, but anybody who knows me can see I'm not anti-American. Even the supposedly anti-American Chretien and Martin were never characterized that way when Clinton was president. (I can't wait for the first Rightie to refer to Nixon going to China when discussing Stephen Harper's recent remarks about the U.S. ambassador.) Just as all of us who didn't like the Liberal government aren't anti-Canadian. I'm acutely aware of genuinely anti-Israel and anti-Jewish factions on the Left (as Jose has also acknowledged), and I hate being in the same bed with them on certain issues. But I don't allow the extremists and the scum to cheapen my own ideas, just as I don't associate genuine conservatives with the scum on the Right. So let's put such talk to rest for the moment.

I don't like the election of Hamas any more than y'all. But it was, apparently, a free and fair election. If Fatah was truly as corrupt as has been reported, what other alternative did the voters have? I know by reading this page how y'all are upset that anyone in our country would vote for corruption. I imagine it's the same in the Palestinian territories, and Hamas was the only party outside of Fatah that was capable of forming a government. The reports say that Hamas ran largely on domestic issues - veering to the centre, so to speak, like a certain successful Canadian party. All politics are local.

So the question is what will happen now? On the one hand, you can't declare that "Democracy is on the march - but only if we like the election results." On the other hand, it is perfectly legitimate to hold Hamas accountable as the leaders of the Palestinian jurisdiction. So the choice of the Palestinian people has to be respected until they do something stupid, or until the Palestinian people suffer from buyers' remorse.

I agre with others here when I say that now more than eve, we need a gov't. like we have now.

No dealing with or recognizing a Hamas govt. (I had a hard time with Fatah, too!)

Recognize Tamil Tigers as a terror group.

No dealing with Ahmadinejad or the other weirdos in Iran's govt.

Stand behind our only true friends: US, UK, Oz, and the other "coalition of the willing" states.

The West needs to stay strong and united, as much now as in WWII.

EPW

This situation is going to change quickly when the Middle East blows up again in March. I hope people will remember who these civilians are and who they voted for when they're "returned to dust" as the saying goes.

Jay:

At the risk of raising the ire of Jewish folks (and I am squarely on the side of Israel),what you're saying is akin to, "Well, the only party that is not tainted by corruption AND has a chance of winning is the National Socialists, so I can understand voting for them."

Sorry, dude. Doesn't work for me.

We can acknowledge that this is the choice of the Palestinian people, but we don't have to like it,respect it or encourage it. We can also choose not to heal with Hamas in any way, just as we would any other hate-filled, murderous, treacherous bunch of villains.

PS - the Muslim world has been in decline at least since the second defeat of the Ottomans at Vienna in the 1600's. It trails not just the West but all other cultures in so many ways. The decline from what was once the paragon of enlightened, tolerant and advanced civilization to the most horrible, poor, undemocratic and backward state is the REAL cause of conflict between Islam and the rest of the world (esp. the West).
American Imperialism or whatever the hell you moonbats are calling it is NOT the reason.....and allowing Islamists the chance to get legitimacy from a one-man, one-vote, onet-time election is not going to solve the problem.

This is where I disagree with at least the official Bush doctrine of 'imposed' democracy. We're in a genuine war here, and it's long-term. The problem goes way deeper...

JMHO,

EPW

Jose:

You think that the porn request was "strange"?

Isn't that what most males,regardless of culture, want to see? Pics/films of exotic chicks doing everything they are not supposed to do/not allowed to do.

Of course, the perception of white women as whores is commonplace amongst brown males everywhere.

EPW:

the Muslim world has been in decline at least since the second defeat of the Ottomans at Vienna in the 1600's. It trails not just the West but all other cultures in so many ways. The decline from what was once the paragon of enlightened, tolerant and advanced civilization to the most horrible, poor, undemocratic and backward state is the REAL cause of conflict between Islam and the rest of the world (esp. the West).

The fact that you are acknowledging that the Islamic world was, at one time, an "enlightened, tolerant and advanced civilization" means that you don't believe that there is something in their DNA to cause them to be terrorists. They haven't always been that way. So if it isn't something genetic, then there has to be a root cause. You trace it back to the decline of Islamic civilization, but you haven't isolated the cause of their decline. So you present a half-baked theory. By following your own logic, wouldn't the solution be to reverse the factors that caused the decline of that civilization in the first place? I'm not as well versed on the history as you are, so I defer to you on the topic, but I'm following your own logic. Unless you think evil is inherent in an entire race of people (and you have demonstrated that you do not), there must be alternatives to perpetual war out there.

evilprinceweasel,

My larger point was them being interested in our cultural exports, movies, books, music and even our recreational drugs.

What does Al Qaeda think of Muslim kids going to raves, taking ectasy and putting their hands up in the air out to calls for Peace, Love, Unity, Respect? I suspect they don't get a lot of recruits from those circles.

Something that's often missed in considering the Muslim world is how much younger they are than us. They're breeding like rabbits while we in the west have to get our young people imported.

Under 30 muslims are radically different than the grey beards. The real challenge we face with Islam is getting people in that democratic on our side. If we get they'll bring their families in with them.

Believe it or not Spain had a very, small version of this after the end of Franco. Remember Spain was essentialy a fascist country well into the 70s. At the time Spain was the most socially conservative nation in Europe.

The change was triggered by democracy, cultural exposure to other europeans and youth culture. The young spanish got hip and modern and their parents grudgingly followed.

I was joking about Jenna Jamieson, btw. I'd rather we had Iranians participating with us in blogs like this one.

Dont you just love spreading democracy to the middle east?

I don't know who said it first, but peace will only come when the Palestinians begin to love their children more than they hate the Israelis.

I hate to say this and I know I'll be flamed but Hamas is extreme right wing. yes I said right; they make sence to their populous who are extremely religious. This is the true nature of their beliefs. This is the mantra the left has preyed upon north america with, but we do not believe the hate and feelings of supiriority the muslims believe in. I am unfortunately glad at hamas being in power because now we can define our values of the right being against religous extremism. I have read the koran and it is a hateful text of what god intended; some to the point but basically hate for those who don't believe. This is the factor in our world that will kill us all if we don't act and they feel no remorse for it as their text instructs them to do. If I were George Bush, I'd nuke em out of existence immediately!

We speak of the 'high civilization and culture' that was Islam, back in the day...from which the Arab World 'declined'...

Show me.

(invented the "zero" and some algebra...and? I mean other than what, that they absorbed by direct consequence of Conquest?)

Winston Churchill on the Quran: - "The Mein Kampf of War". I go with that, be it "DNA" or some other factor (like what it says in the Bible, about Ishmael, fer instance - though that I'll leave to others to debate), and as wishin' won't make it all go away, get my head around "perpetual war", to victory or dhimmitude/death...

Read the Hamas Charter, and then come straightfaced to talk to me about "alternatives to perpetual war": - http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Watching the invasion of Iraq on BBC, Fox and CNN, it was clear that the most level coverage was Fox. LMAO!!! Oh my.

At the risk of raising the ire of some of you around here...
Which side of the current Israeli-Palestinian has suffered the greater human losses- as of Sept. 2005, more than 3200 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli forces, while 974 Israelis had been killed by Palestinians (both figures include militants, civilians and soldiers altogether). Are you folks here suggesting that Palestinian lives are worth less? On top of that, which side has been economically devastated? Which is on the wrong side of the 650km wall?

Palestine may have democratically elected an extreme government, but that doesn't mean its people don't deserve our compassion. Gaza is one of the poorest, most disadvantaged places in the world. No wonder there's hatred. A little compassion from the West and Israel could go a long ways...heaven knows it's the only thing that hasn't been tried.

Kate, why is any criticism of Israel's policies viewed as anti-Semitic?

Article Seventeen: The Role of Muslim Women
The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men and play a great role in guiding and educating the [new] generation. The enemies have understood that role, therefore they realize that if they can guide and educate [the Muslim women] in a way that would distance them from Islam, they would have won that war. Therefore, you can see them making consistent efforts [in that direction] by way of publicity and movies, curricula of education and culture, using as their intermediaries their craftsmen who are part of the various Zionist Organizations which take on all sorts of names and shapes such as: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, gangs of spies and the like. All of them are nests of saboteurs and sabotage. Those Zionist organizations control vast material resources, which enable them to fulfill their mission amidst societies, with a view of implementing Zionist goals and sowing the concepts that can be of use to the enemy. Those organizations operate [in a situation] where Islam is absent from the arena and alienated from its people. Thus, the Muslims must fulfill their duty in confronting the schemes of those saboteurs. When Islam will retake possession of [the means to] guide the life [of the Muslims], it will wipe out those organizations which are the enemy of humanity and Islam.

Watch out you Lions and Lionettes, too!

"Gaza is one of the poorest, most disadvantaged places in the world. No wonder there's hatred."

sis ,

With all of the aid paid to Palestinians why are they so poor? You have it backwards. They are too busy feeling sorry for themselves and hating to build lives. Look at what the Jews accomplished in Israel with a lot less help after having their wealth stolen and being nearly wiped out in Europe.

Read the Hamas Charter, and then come straightfaced to talk to me about "alternatives to perpetual war": - http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
Posted by Tiburon at January 26, 2006 10:44 PM
Shit! Fuck! reading that swill has prompted me to say that north america will never be safe until the muslim religion is no more! The mosques are bastions of hate in our cities and until they are all dead, we will not be safe!
LOL!
I don't believe in genocide but effective reeducation must be employed. This multiculturalism farce we have in canukistan must be abolished! The first step for a safer society is integrating imigrants into it, instead of marginalizing them. And you know know the first stop of our soon to be increased military will be; Killing Hammas!

Jay,
the thing about the democratic election of Hamas is that it is now more incomprehensible to suggest that Israel can actually have rational discussions with an organization that makes no effort to disguise that they are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. They democratically chose Hamas and that just clears it up for the rest of us what the Arabs are all about. Westerners and many Israelis have tended to portray Fatah as "secular nationalists", deluding themselves to the fact that with their Al-aqsa martyrs brigades, Fatah is just another terrorist gang. But Westerners and many Israelis used to like to say, "well we can deal with the secular nationalist Fatah, but not Islamic fundamentalists like Hamas". In reality there is no difference between Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Queda etc.
Part of my cure from liberalism was realizing how the left was apologizing for and cozing up to the enemies of Israel. "Oh we can criticize Israel but we are not anti-Jews, we are just anti-Zionists." Yeah right.

ex-liberal (also a Jew)

Terry-

Bandaids don't heal deep wounds- Gaza needs basic infrastructure and international investment to re-establish an economy. With the virulent anti-Islamic sentiments ruling the upper echelons of world government and business, this is impossible.

Israel, on the other hand, had the support of the UN and its member nations.

Sis

Kate, why is any criticism of Israel's policies viewed as anti-Semitic?
Posted by sis at January 26, 2006 10:48 PM
This is not about Jews even tho I don't like their idealism; this is about a force intent on irradicating a nation in the same way Adolf Hitler has done before! This discontent of jewish interests has to do with the way jews operate; Finantial absolutism. Jewish interests own most of our media because they worked for it and they spew their values because they own it.
I feel you are right about this culture of anti semitism but in contrast, Isreal is under constant threat of irradication to take away the land god promised them in the Bible that the jews don't believe in. Be a Christian and do gods will for a change.

My remarks re: the tolerance, etc. of the Islamic Caliphates were not about the Koran per se, Tiburon. Just that compared to other civilizations of the time, the Muslims were quite enlightened.

I agree that Islamist parties, be they Sunni or Shia, are most definitely right-wing extemists: their equivalent of the KKK. The difference being that now, far-right extremism is not mainstream in the West(yeah, shut up already moonbats: I know YOU won't agree).

Jay:
Well of course it's not in their DNA, silly! I was talking about culture & civilzation, on the presumption that these things are largely taught and learned, actively or passively.

Jose:

Can't disagree with you, there. Internet and other media will spread freedom...at the very least, the kids will demand it! Until then let's just try to hold on, survive, go forth & multiply I'm only half-joking here. I'm no Catholic; it's just that the 'wacko' Muslims are breeding like crazy). Perhaps our progeny will one day live in a freer, less hate-filled world.

Actually I oppose any and all minority groups from having a say in our new parliament; this is about Canada and not them, jewish interests included. The only ones who have a right are aboriginals. So the rest of you STFU!

Tiburon - to be fair Muslims brought Europe out of the Dark Ages. That's not white guilt talking, the historical case is very compelling.

I've listed a URL for The Story of Spain. One of the best history books on Spain. There's a good chunk of it dedicated to Muslim Spain. Ironicaly enough the only good kings Spain ever had were arguably Muslim. And you'll find many young educated Spaniards who are patriotic but nonetheless have a high opinion of the muslim kings of yore. Strange but true.

Mathematics, medicine, architecture, the beginnings of chemistry, superior metallurgy and animal husbandry and oh the preservation of several thousand volumes of key texts from Rome/Greece.

And no I don't say that in way of apology of some of the excesses of modern Islam. I'm not sure how relevant it is but it can't hurt.

Ever wonder what happened to all the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Aetheists who populated the Middle East and the ever expanding "Muslim homelands" subsequent to the year 635 AD? If not, you should.

Ever wonder what happened to all the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Aetheists who populated the Middle East and the ever expanding "Muslim homelands" subsequent to Mohammad, say 635 AD? If you haven't, please consider the issue.

"With the virulent anti-Islamic sentiments ruling the upper echelons of world government and business, this is impossible."

sis,

Virulent? Do you have evidence to support this strange assertion. Who are you referring to? Have you no knowledge of the U.N.'s treatment of Israel as compared with Palestine.

Virulent and yet the leader of the free world doesn't feel he can call the current war "A Reasoned Response TO Islamofascist Attacks" but instead must call it the "War on Terror", referring to the tactics of the enemy because it isn't politically correct to use their name.

Some bright person with time on their hands and good research sklls may be able to post the figures for aid to Palestinians (if known as compared with aid to Israelis but I suggest you are wrong and that if the Palestinians had accepted the reality of Israel they could have paved the roads of Gaza with gold and had money left over for band aids, which they wouldn't have needed.

Palestine is a failure because you cannot build a nation on hate.

sis

I can't answer every point you present here...they are (not you), (necessarily), just too benighted to be worthy of serious response.

But regards the death toll. These dead on their side are +90% males, between the ages of 15 and 40. The dead on our side are +80% women and children.
Can you fathom the implications of this, sis?
Are you seriously suggesting that the only 'justice' in war is to die equally to the enemy?
BTW, the "Palestinian Authority" and the "Palestinians", have received more foreign aid per capita than ANY group of people on earth, ever, by an order of magnitude. Check it out, sis. Billions of dollars. From US, Canada, UK, EU, Israel...list goes on.

And somehow, this is OUR fault that they are still living in slums? WE'RE the "root cause"???

Please educate yourself.

Tom:

Odds are they converted at the point of a sword, or were annihilated. Theere can't be much room for debate over that. The pace of Muslim military expansion in the hundred years after Mohammmed's death was breathtaking and terrifying.

Affliction

Jewish Media in Canada. Well, hard to argue too forcibly against your point, but it's unfortunate that those same Jews represent almost to a man/woman the same forces of moral relativism, radical secularism, and social fascistic leftism that are conservativism's anethma.
Jewish Idealism is a Truth Based Culture, and they aren't it....

As to the historical contributions of Muslim rule in times past, well, I'll retreat a bit from my earlier vitriol. Yes, much of what they co-opted was through Conquest, but in relatively brief periods in the last 1400 years, they did act as a force, if not for "human progress", at least for preservation and elaboration (arabesque) of the legacy of earlier cultures...
It's not 'black and white'. And most folk just want to raise their families and be left alone, whoever or wherever they live.

Question remains, short of absolute and total defeat of normative Islamic belief, which the new Pope deems "unreformable" due it's theological structure, what alternative presents itself?

Affliction,

Islam isn't incompatible with a humane, tolerant mindset than christianity or judaism. It just so happens that at this point in time there is a dramatic fundementalist upswing in the Muslim world.

Judaism, Christianity and Muslim are all complex and diverse religons. I'm an athiest and I've met plenty of solid muslim blokes who I get along with no problems. That being said there's some muslim types that I wouldn't get along with. Just as there are some jews and christians with extremist views that I find annoying. (Like the creationists that like to pick fights at parties over evolution).

I'm an secular, athiest leftie. I'll get along with just about anyone so long as you can carry your end of an interesting and good natured conversation. Burning bushes, space aliens, meteors from space, talking coyotes, gods of field and stream, its all the same to me.

Will there ever be recoginition that strife in the ME predates America? If it were not for the western world (Henry Ford specifically) the ME would still be just a sandbox.

I hope we can create an environment where ME citizens begin directly benefitting from the market created by American ingenuity, instead of hostile totalitarian governments. Where are the "Liberal", "Socialist" movements for Democratic goverance in the ME? Where do these movements leave "the people" in regards to freedom and power.

Socialists play both sides to their own peril. Do you really believe in freedom, or no?

Tiburon- The hope is that Islam will modernize.

Remember we hear in the west have a massive step up on most of the world on the sophistication of our media, democratic traditions, economies, rights and freedoms and access to travel and information.

Cultures clash, the engage each other in the process they change each other. This is a long slow process. It almost never happens as fast as you'd like but it does happen.

I used to live a block away from a hotel where the IRA tried came very close to assasinating Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s. Now they mostly just smuggle cigarettes.

Jose, it's beddie-bye for me. Nice thread, not LGF but nice. ;-)

I know the 'goal' is to see Islam 'modernize', problem remaining that moderate Islam is no longer TRUE ISLAM, so it's essentially like asking Catholics to ignore the Pope, or deny the efficacy of Confession. Not impossible, but not likely, and Catholicism has proven ability to adjust it's teaching to 'the Times'. Few indeed are the imams who dare counter the main thrust of Islam's Imperative: - Dar el Islaam (Umma) versus Dar el Harb (everyone and everwhere else - the House of War.)
oh well. Maybe in the morning someone will have fixed it all.... G'nite all.

Tom Penn- Have you check out Dubai lately? Muslim countries can modernize into useful partners. Most muslims are more interested in improving their standard of living than engaging on a crusade with the west.

That's how accomodations between cultures happen. It starts with them doing business with one another. Ultimately they have to go beyond oil.

I'm signing off as well. Its been a pleasure talking to you guys. Its nice to talk to people who I don't agree with in a constructive manner.

I've little faith in party poltics. The future of our political development lies in the grassrots of our various political factions engaging each other directly and trying to find some consensus with each other. Stranger things can happen in the blogosphere over the next decade.

So no I'm not a Leftie that is tacking right but I do come in peace.

Interesting references to the great ancient Arab - read Islamic civilizations pre-whenever. What a fucking laugh!! The Arabs never had, and still don’t have the basic IQ that allows them to advance past the level of – eat it, fuck it, or break it! When faced with anything more advance than that they would co-opted the local brains - whether it be Jew or Gentile in the Middle East or Spain. In fact, the Arab only knew one thing and that was how to swing a blade.

The so-called Arab civilizations collapsed when the Jews left the Middle East and settled in Europe, and took their skills with them.

All, yes all, of the Middle East still suffers to this day for the lack of intelligence and needs immigrant workers to do everything for them.

"Socialists play both sides to their own peril. Do you really believe in freedom, or no?"

Socialists believe that what is theirs is theirs and what is yours is theirs and that theft is a virtue.

They also believe that those they attack and steal from, on a daily basis, should defend them from all enemies as they are too busy distributing your money to be occupied with such matters.

I'm afraid the Hamas election victory puts me in mind of something the late Abba Eban once said:

"[The] Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Remember when they sided with Saddam in the First Gulf War?

Chris from Victoria, BC

interesting article, where's the proof?
why believe Sada, just because he said so
who is this guy anyway?

Sada claims that Saddam shipped his WMD out to Syria IMMEDIATLY before the US invasion in March 2003. that is laughable because all eyes were on Iraq at the time, and remember colin powell's U.N circus show were they had cartoon drawings of mobile wmd truck's that turn out to be fabricated intelligence

FACT- after gulf war 1, all the wmd's were accounted for and destroyed, strick sanctions were in place and U.N. inspectors were in Iraq until the US told them to leave in 1997, yes the US told them to leave, Saddam did not kick them out.

gulf war 2 started in 2002, that leaves a window of oppurtunity for Saddam to make wmd's from 1997 to 2002 (5 years) under no fly zones and heavy satelite surveilance and no doubt spies

Sada's allegation is suspicious for one reason, the absolute absence of any credible evidence to support it. don't you think that the Bush administration would stand by Sada's allegation and pursue this, Thats why they went to war is it not?

Re: HAMAS

I caught a piece on the news last night that was very unsettling. Has any looked at who they elected as a leader. I didn't get her name, (I probably wouldn't hae been able to spell it BUT)
This women had already sent 3 of her own children on suicide missions. She is willing to sacrafic her remaining sons in the name of HAMAS.
This is frick'n scary. We better wake up realize that we are no longer safe any where in this world. Thank GOD the PM Harper is at the helm. He at least will take a calm thoughtful approach to this. Martin and his boys probably would have had a secret allowcation fund to send them money. Saying see, we're really the good guys!!!
I guess in this crazy world there is some kind of balance. Elect a man with a concience / elect a party in a third world that hate Jews and Americans. (American that does include us!)

Islam will modernize?

what are you guys talking about, do any of you travel outside Canada or north America?

Iraq was one of the most secular nation in the world, it has the internet before the us invaded it,women could vote, christian could pratice there religion, etc

ignorance coupled with uninformed dialect, is very dangerous

religion and anti-semitism

first of all, G-d did not promise the Jews Israel
there are no borders nor nationalism in G-d's world! We are all G-d's people.If you are christian you should know this, if you believe that the jews are the chosen people, and only they will be saved, THAN WHY ARE YOU CHRISTIAN?

there are bad jews (zionism) just like there are bad Italians (mobsters), WHAT are all Italians mobsters? no!

and for you that don't know anything about zionism please check this out, and educate yourself

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

"Hamas’s charter calls for the destruction of the Jewish state. The group has carried out nearly 60 suicide bombings in Israel since the start of a Palestinian uprising in 2000, killing 430 Israelis. Its triumph in winning 76 seats in the 132-member Palestinian parliament, against 43 for Fatah, represents a huge political change in the Middle East."

Try having meaningful talks with this group. Where are the moderates?
And keep your eyes on this guy:
"Khaled Mashal, the exiled supreme leader of Hamas and one of Israel's most wanted men, has signalled his intention to return to the Gaza Strip following the organisation's landslide victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections."

Instead of using Palestinian poverty as part of the problem, remember how many millions of dollars Arafat stole and factor that into the equation. And speaking of Arafat, what he said in English and what he said in Arabic were not the same thing - so be wary.

In the online Times you can see that life for Palestinians will change:
"Many Palestinians feared that the Islamists would stamp their religious code on life by banning alcohol and forcing women to wear the hijab. The only bar in Gaza City selling alcohol was bombed three weeks ago. At Gaza FM, an independent radio station, one presenter, Jayyab Abu Safia, 22, said that he would leave the country because he feared an escalation of the death threats that he and the station’s six other staff have already received from Islamic extremists.
'Since the result we have switched off the songs and we are going to change all the programmes because they have been condemned by Hamas and Islamic Jihad,” he said."

If you're interested in the ME, educate yourself and pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

For someone who mentioned aid to the Jewish state, this is in today's Times online.

"America and the European Union are heavily involved in day-to-day Palestinian affairs, providing the bulk of the $1 billion (£560 million) given annually in aid to support education, health and other Palestinian development projects. Western diplomats are closely engaged daily in promoting the search for Middle East peace, a foreign policy objective for successive Western governments."

A billion dollars annually - look for the evidence of it being spent on "education, health and other Palestinian development projects".
When you find it, please pass it on.

A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion—and Counting

how many tanks, missiles, and nuclear warheads
have been bought by the isreali government with that money

When you find it, please pass it on

Although Israel is an "advanced, industrialized, technologically sophisticated country," it "receives more U.S. aid per capita annually than the total annual [Gross Domestic Product] per capita of several Arab states." Approximately a third of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget goes to Israel, "even though Israel comprises just…one-thousandth of the world's total population, and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes."

Some might be interested in these extracts:

"The Hamas Charter: extracts
By Times Online

Below are extracts from the Hamas charter of 1988, the founding document of the Islamist group that yesterday won an outright majority in the Palestinian parliamentary elections:

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement, 18 August 1988

Preamble

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others." (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed memory).

Introduction

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks.

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Hamas slogan

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. (Article 8)

Peace process

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. (Article 13)

Duty to fight

It is necessary to instill the spirit of jihad (holy war) in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.

It is necessary that scientists, educators and teachers, information and media people, as well as the educated masses, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening (the masses).

It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Muslim generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. (Article 15)

On women

Woman in the home of the fighting family, whether she is a mother or a sister, plays the most important role in looking after the family, rearing the children and embuing them with moral values and thoughts derived from Islam. She has to teach them to perform the religious duties in preparation for the role of fighting awaiting them. That is why it is necessary to pay great attention to schools and the curriculum followed in educating Muslim girls, so that they would grow up to be good mothers, aware of their role in the battle of liberation. (Article 18)

Israel

Our enemy relies on the methods of collective punishment. He has deprived people of their homeland and properties, pursued them in their places of exile and gathering, breaking bones, shooting at women, children and old people, with or without a reason...

In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the homeland is a kind of murder. (Article 20)

Allies of Israel

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained.... With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world... They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. (Article 22)

Epilogue

The Islamic Resistance Movement adopts Islam as its way of life. Islam is its creed and religion. Whoever takes Islam as his way of life, be it an organisation, a grouping, a country or any other body, the Islamic Resistance Movement considers itself as their soldiers and nothing more. (Article 36)

Yale Law School
Extracts taken from the translation of the Hamas Covenant 1988 provided by the Avalon Project of Yale Law School."

Terry:

Too frickin funny, dude!

"Truth" seeker - you really are an ignoramus.

So...the Saddam Baathists sounded pretty good to you, eh? I guess no amount of video footage of people being thrown off buildings will change your mind. Or gang rapes of daughters & wives while family is forced to watch, no amount ofchildren being tortured, stung by bees and scorpions in front of parents.....all things that have been substantiated....will change your mind.

Here are some other great places you might want to visit, O Truthful One:

Cuba - nice weather! Everyone has healthcare, education & employment. Just don't speak out against the ruling gang, or be gay, or belong to an independent union;

North Korea - another fab place, ditto re: full employment et al..;

Zimbabwe - again, more of the same, just don't be a cracker;

China - well what can I say about the place that executes alomst as many people each day as Texas does in a year, for things like tax evasion, no less. Ruled by and for the People, nonetheless;

Syria - more of that modernist Baathism we all so crave and enjoy. Never pokes its finger into neighbouring countries' affairs. Wonder if they have Baath-houses?

Need I go on, MORON?!?

EPW

Truthseeker,
I gave the amt of Palestinian aid. If you want to see the amt of aid the U.S. gives to other Arab countries, you could begin with Egypt. Their success makes it legitimate to ask where the Palestinian funds have gone, and why their lives haven't improved. Anyone genuinely interested in the Palestinians should be looking for answers.
Israel spends huge sums of money on protection, not aggression, and Hamas uses suicide bombers - much more cost effective. So why are they poor and suffering?

"Working Together For Egypt:
A Prosperous Country, A Prosperous People

For the past 28 years, the United States and Egypt collaborated closely as partners in economic development. The two countries built a strong and productive relationship, one that has resulted in an impressive legacy of major achievements. This partnership paves the way for a continuation of social and economic progress in future years.

Millions of Egyptian citizens, men and women, in all parts of the country and of all ages, enjoy a higher quality of life as a result of the many programs initiated by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) in conjunction with the Government of Egypt. All sectors of the economy, from agriculture, business, infrastructure, tourism, health, education, and the environment, have benefited from the cooperative efforts of the two countries and from the $25.6 billion in assistance resources that have been devoted to these efforts.

In 1975, the governments of the United States and Egypt set a course to meet several far-ranging challenges. Today, Egypt has a growing market-oriented economy, a healthier and more educated population. The country enjoys more productive and efficient agriculture, cleaner water for its people, and advanced electrical and telecommunications facilities.

Such achievements are important and Egypt continues to advance; however, much work remains to be done. The United States remains deeply committed to the partnership of our two countries as our relationship evolves from one based on aid to one rooted in trade and investment."
From www.usaid-eg.org

ignoramus?

In the mid-1980s the Reagan administration sent current U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to meet with Saddam Hussein

knowing full well what kind of monster saddam was, the us was iraq's allie during the iraq iran war, the us knew that saddam gassed the kurds, but remained a strong allie, until saddam invaded kuwait, then all of a sudden he's a ba guy

WAKE UP , EVIL PRINCESS

Truth Seeker:

Here's some for you. (Truth)

1) Sada's book is not the only evidence that Saddam disposed of his WMD. It's just the latest piece of evidence. I'm not fully convinced myself but the balance of probability is that he did hide materiele.

2) U.S. aid to Israel is given specifically because whatever it's GDP per capita, Israel is still a geographically minute country of 5 million surrounded by 100s of millions of enemies. Israel's military budget is roughly the same as Canada's. Saudi Arabia spends double what Israel does.

Comparing humanitarian aid to the Palestinians to military aid for Israel is an argument from Democratic Underground. It does not belong at SDA.

Again, to Truthseeker:
This one will be the last, but you will most likely be interested in the U.S. aid to Jordan:

"As part of a five-year Middle East peace and stability fund announced by the Clinton administration in 1997, both Egypt and Israel agreed to the diversion of $50 million from each of their respective aid programs in 1997 and 1998 to augment economic aid funds available to Jordan.

That brought U.S. economic aid to Jordan to $112 million in 1997 and $150 million in 1998, and total aid for Jordan for those years to $152 million and $228 million respectively (including military aid).

Since then, U.S. aid stabilized at $150 million in economic assistance, $75 million in foreign military financing and $1.6 million in international military education and training.

In 2003, however, the Bush administration sought to double the U.S. aid to Jordan in view of its support for the "War on Terror." In October 2000, Jordan and the U.S. signed a free trade agreement, the third for the U.S. and its first with an Arab state, which eliminates duties and commercial barriers to bilateral trade in goods and services originating in the two countries.

Jordanian 'anger'

Great political and economic ties between Jordan and the U.S., however, do not reflect the mood in the Jordanian street.

Because of American support for Israel – perhaps half the Jordanian population originates from Palestine – and the anger at what happened in Iraq, the Jordanians find themselves filled with deep anger at American policies.

That anger was reflected in several violent acts against U.S. diplomats and local police.

Though the Jordanian government has described them as "isolated incidents," these were signs of resentment of U.S. policies in the region, and this anger cannot be mended by free trade agreements or direct economic assistance.

Whether that will change with more American involvement in implementing the road map remains to be seen."

From cbc - What the World Thinks of America.

greenmamba

1) Sada's book is not the only evidence that Saddam disposed of his WMD. It's just the latest piece of evidence.

ok, where is the other evidence? what evidence?and since when is writting a book evidence?

gellen, I have a question for you

do you believe the war in Iraq is a war on terror? and if so, why?

truther seeker "Iraq was one of the most secular nation in the world, it has the internet before the us invaded it,women could vote, christian could pratice there religion, etc "

I happen to live in one of the most secular countries in the world. The criteria you list may have earned a country Most Secular Status in 1910 but the yardstick has changed since then.

In the most secular countries you see

-same sex and interacial couples kissing in public.
-houses of worship gathering cobwebs.
-old secretarian sentiment evaporating
-heterosexual couples opting not to get married.
-homosexual couples opting to get married

Jose

I'm not sure I understand your last post

my definition of secular: is modern, civil and a clear division between church and state

what is you're definition of secular?

U.N.: Iraq had no WMD after 1994
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/23/novak-had-better-sources-than-bush-on-iraq/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6190720/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-02-un-wmd_x.htm

who is this Sada individual?

Truthseeker,
As a Christian who tries to keep on top of things, I was as conflicted about the war on Iraq as most people.
I would not have gone to war with Iraq, but that doesn't make me right. Once the U.S. did go to war, I supported them because defeat was unthinkable for everyone - the Iraqi people most of all.
My interest in the two world wars (one book written and one being written)makes me view world events closely. No one wants us to go down that road again, but we underestimated Hitler and have to be vigilant. Anti-semitism is on the rise and must be stamped out before we're all drawn into another war.
I'm so proud of the two generations who fought in the first and second world wars, and proud of the men and women serving in the military now. They knew they were fighting a cause worth dying for - but my dream is that we can dialogue with each other to solve our problems. I say 'my dream' becaue I'm pragmatic enough to know that the forces against peace are not interested in dialogue. Which is why I say, be informed, and pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

gellen

well you didn't answer the question , if you think the war in Iraq is a war on terror?

"No one wants us to go down that road again, but we underestimated Hitler and have to be vigilant"

Hitler was elected democratically, then proceed to take absolute power by burning the Reichstag and blaming it on the terrorist, and proceed to pass his version of the patriot act,

Yes we have to be vigilant; I strongly encourage watching these videos, with your own eyes and your common sense

http://1984videos.com/
http://www.hugequestions.com/

there is no room for anti-semitism or hatred of all other people, just because they are different,
lets pray for peace for the whole world, not just Jerusalem

Truth Seeker: ok, where is the other evidence? what evidence?and since when is writting a book evidence?

A fair question but I'm simply saying I've come across a fair number of consistent stories over the past 3 years but I don't have time to collate them at the moment. I would be prepared to do so except that you said, there are bad jews (zionism). This puts you in that particular category where there is no rational discussion possible.

Sorry.

greenmamba

don't worry about looking them up, I'm sure if there was any truth behind them stories, the Bush administration would have known about it

"This puts you in that particular category where there is no rational discussion possible"

are you suggesting that I'm anti-semitic?

So all Jews are rightious, not one could be bad, not one in the whole history of the world!
So all christians are rightious, not one could be bad, not in the whole history of the world
How does that make any sense to you?

If I were to tell you I was a Jew, then what?

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

greenmamba

Do you believe in the Bible?

Revelation 2-3
To the church in Philadelphia

9- I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars.

WOW Jesus was an anti-Semite, who knew?
Sarcasm

Truthseeker- Wiki Secularism for a more indepth answer than the one I'm going to give you here.

Here's an excerpt from Wiki "Secularism is a code of duty pertaining to this life, founded on considerations purely human, and intended mainly for those who find theology indefinite or inadequate, unreliable or unbelievable. Its essential principles are three: (1) The improvement of this life by material means. (2) That science is the available Providence of man."

Iraq even at its most secular was a full generation behind Europe. We've gone well beyond wether or not women can vote and hold jobs. The bleeding edge of secularism now is gay rights.

TS:

I didn't say anti-Semitic. You inferred that Zionists are bad Jews. Given that Zionism is a movement that believes Jews should have a nation state, you are saying that Jews who want to have to have a nation state are bad.

This is asinine. Ther are many nation states on Earth but only in the case of the Jewish one is its existence up for discussion. It's preposterous. Add to this that the establishment of Israel gained support after it was finally realised that Jews have historically been picked on and killed off everywhere they have tried to live. To deny them Israel is to say that they just have to put up with pogroms.

(You may well be a Jew. There are many with self destructive ideas. It's just one of the characteristics that makes Jews as a whole NOT a threat when they live in diasporan societies.

In any case your religion is irrelevant to me.)

The bleeding edge of secularism now is gay rights

maybe, but that is a debate that pertain
to the division of church and state not neccessarly secularism, that maybe your interpratation

Iraq, was a devoloped pro western nation by western standards before the first gulf war in 1991

Iraq was an allie of the US. in the 1980's, before and after Saddam gassed the kurds, before and after the Iran Iraq war, and they knew full well how evil Saddam was at the time, his atrocities were fully documented by the world press

One of the strengths of the Jewish community is that, for the most part, we don't try to define our political values in terms of religious fundamentalism, other than a few minor parties in Israel. One of the reasons we're an enlightened society (both the state of Israel and the Jewish community in diaspora) is that we're all over the map politically and tolerant of ideas. Alberta, on the other hand... (Just having some fun.)

"There are many nation states on Earth but only in the case of the Jewish one is its existence up for discussion"

Maybe it is because of the way the state of Israel was created.If the chinese were to come to Canada and start relocating Canadians and started taking over Canadian territory and occupying us, how would you feel?yet thats what happen in 1947 after ww2

the state of Israel exist and thats that, now is the time to look for peaceful solutions so that the palestinians and isrealis can co existe peacefully

zionism like most political ideologies are more complexe as to just the creation of a nation state

From Wikipedia
Similarly, anti-Zionism as a political movement often is interpreted improperly as antisemitism.

TS: yes, Israel was created differently. It started off with the land being BOUGHT! (At premium prices.) There is nothing worse about the way Israel was created than any number of countries.

greenmamba

so if north american indians start buying there land back with the money they make off casinos lets say, and begin relocating canadians, and occuping Canadians that's ok, because it was there land before we got here

greenmamba

you are much more articulate than I, we seem to agree to disagree on certain issues, you are an educated person, how would you resolve the palestinian israelis situation?

Sorry, TS, I missed that. Do I think the war in Iraq is/was a war on terror? No. But, I'm not sure why that is significant.
Yes, the majority of Germans voted in Hitler and his regime, and the world lived to regret the fact that no one read Mein Kampf with any understanding and heeded the warnings which were there for all to see.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and we learn from history or (as they say) we repeat it.
BTW, TS, I pray for all the countries of the world, and pray for the peace of Jerusalem that all the nations of the world are not drawn into another war.
Arafat is dead, but the Palestinian goals are the same unless a leader arises who is a bit more temperate in their view of the right of Israel and Jews to exist. In his own words:
"The jihad will continue ... You have to understand our main battle is Jerusalem ... It is not their capitol. It is our capitol."
–Arafat speech in Johannesburg, South Africa, May 1994

"By Allah, I swear ... that the Palestinian people are prepared to sacrifice the last boy and the last girl so that the Palestinian flag will be flown over the walls, the churches and the mosques of Jerusalem."

Oh, bah, all of you...the question is, how much of our information can we trust?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm

Just for a change of pace.

gellen

Do I think the war in Iraq is/was a war on terror? No. But, I'm not sure why that is significant.

I think it's significant because most americans believe it is, thanks to the western media propaganda.
osama bin laden is still running around and bush decided to attack iraq

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and we learn from history or (as they say) we repeat it.

we are repeating it today, I believe we are at the beginning stages of world war 4.

At the end of that very day 9/11, President Bush reportedly wrote in his diary: "The
Pearl Harbor of the 21st century took place today
that is greatly important, because pearl harbour is what caused the americans to enter ww2, so in fact Bush is saying ww4 has begun (ww3 cold war)

and yet iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and osama bin laden is still running loose, and most americans and canadians think that all 1.2 billion muslims are terrorist

TruthS: been called away to taxi kids. We'll have to continue another time. The problem is when one's ideology causes one to filter facts to suit. I came by my views honestly after research and choosing the more probable over the improbable.

(PS: I can help yo with your views on the Iraq War too.)

truth seeker - I'm curious as to how you define "ally". For example, one would certainly consider Britain, Austraila, Canada (yes!), etc. to be allies of the U.S. However, there have always been 3rd-party countries that the U.S. has given aid to, to further particular aims, but neither side was/is under the mistaken impression that they were "allies". Palahvian Iran was considered an American ally (with all its faults), but that ended with the revolution. In the '80's everyone was clear that the U.S. was "using" Iraq to get at Iran, and that Saddam was very happy to be so "used" and accept U.S. aid. But just because the U.S. gives aid, does not make the aid recipient our ally. (See, for example, Egypt. Our great ally. Ha hahahahaha! Oh, that makes me laugh. Thanks.) Plus the fact, that, um, we were also giving some arms to Iran.

As Henry Kissinger said back then, "It's too bad they can't both lose." Not for the people of the region, who suffered terribly, but their disgusting, tyrranical governments.

Meg Q

ok so the U.S and Iraq were not allies, in the traditional sense of the word.

tell me why was Saddam labeled a bad guy after gulf war one, but was best friends (not ally) with the U.S.way back when the cia helped put saddam in power in 1963, supported saddam against the iranians, supported saddam when he gassed the kurds, supported saddam when he gassed the iranians, supported saddam when he was torturing his own people, but all of a sudden
he's a bad guy

greenmamba

"We'll have to continue another time." yes looking forward to it, it's been fun

"The problem is when one's ideology causes one to filter facts to suit." can't agree with you more
"I came by my views honestly after research and choosing the more probable over the improbable."
funny, so did I, and still do

(PS: I can help yo with your views on the Iraq War too.)

I may have to choose my words more carefuly in the future regarding zionism
(will research some more), but I can assure you my views on Iraq are correct, and 9/11 as well)
if you haven't done so you have to watch these videos

http://www.hugequestions.com/
http://1984videos.com/
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html

Jordan is a state of Arabs from the British Mandate for Palestine. Before 1967 the only people who called themselves Palestinians were Jews. Between 1948 and 1967 when Jordan held the West Bank and Egypt held the Gaza strip, no one on the planet was calling for the establishment of a state of Palestine on these lands. These are not "opinions" - they are just simply facts - look it up yourself. If the Arabs of British Mandated Palestine had accepted the partitiion plan of 1947, they would be celebrating the 58th year of their own state.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/

seems interesting ex-liberal

I will look it up, but tell me, how could they be celebrating the 58 year of there own state, if they didn't call themselves palestinians and they weren't calling for the establishment of a state of Palestine on these lands?

The Arabs referred to this area as southern Syria I think. Do you know what the partition plan of 1947 was? Palestine is just a name the Romans gave to the area after they put down the Jewish revolt. They did not want to refer to it as Judaea (a name that appeared on maps)and to discourage the Jews who had just waged a rebellion against them, they renamed the area after the Jews great enemy from the time of King David -the Philistines. Hebrew is the indigenous language of this area. This is the place on the planet where Hebrew originated. Arabic is the language of the Arabian peninsula. When the UN was determining who were Arab refugees are the war in 1947, they had to redefine the term refugee to mean "anyone who had lived in the area for 2 years".

ok, I'm not sure where you going with this, but if the zionist movement to colonize that stripe of land in the ottoman empire known as southern Syria (today's israel), that means if there was no palestine, there was no israel either.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were displaced and in 1948 Israel came into being.

several wars were fought involving Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon after 1948, and these arab states lost territory to Israel, and Palestinians in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem, have lived under Israeli occupation since 1967

and Israel evacuated its settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2005 and withdrew its forces, ending almost four decades of military occupation

When Mark Twain travelled through the area in the 1800s he reports that the area was desolate and with hardly any inhabitants. There has been a continuous if small Jewish presence since the time the Romans destroyed the second Temple in 70 AD. Jews had been there for at least 1000 years before that. The number of Arabs in the area greatly increased when they migrated in in the late 1800s early 1900s to take advantage of the job opportunities opening up as returning Jews started to clear the swamps, build roads, towns, etc. Do you know anything about the British Mandate? Jews did not steal the land from some ancient Arab society that had been there from time immemorial. Do you know there were 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries in 1947?
Where would you like to go with this?

ex-liberal

keep in mind that nationalism is new, there were no Canadians 250 years ago, in fact countries only came into being (with borders)apx 300 years ago,
before the rule of law, man had kings and queens and empires. ex the roman empire included much of europe but there was no france, germany or british back then, rome is a city there was no italy either, thus the roman empire
so when you say "Before 1967 the only people who called themselves Palestinians were Jews" that is simply not true
there were and are people living in that part of the world and they were displaced.
what the world isn't big enough they had to displace them and occupy them?of course there enough land for everybody on earth, the creation of Israel is also a religious issue not just a political issue

Israel has been a nation,and been aware of itself as a nation, for some 3500 years. Check the UN records, there is no discussion of "Palestinians" before 1967 - just Arabs and Jews. The Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra used to be the Palestinian Philharmonic Orchestra, the Jerusalem Post used to be called the Palestinian Post. In 1947 Jews asked their Arab neighbours not to run away before the invading Arab armies.

Israel has been a nation,and been aware of itself as a nation, for some 3500 years.

ok, where in the bible does it say "nation of Israel"
what are it's borders
I never knew G-d created borders, I always thought man created borders

Oct 1922
First British census of Palestine shows total population of 757,182 (11% Jewish).

Nov 18 1931
Second British census of Palestine shows total population of 1,035,154 (16.9% Jewish).

yep, just swamp water and rocks

gellen, I doubt you might still be reading this but I'd like to say thanks for the thoughtful bits. With what is filtered through the MSM and the foreign offices of other nations, it is easy for some to think they know what is going on.

I still hope that power acts as a moderating influence on Hamas and that they are finally faced with mounting international pressure as was suggested over the past 48 hours or so. This was pressure they were never accountable to as a terror organization that ran in the shadows.

Perhaps now many pro-Palestinians will see the violence even between Fatah and Hamas and thereby conclude that a lasting peace 1) won't be easy and 2) requires that pressure is kept up on Hamas to act in good faith.

In 1844 - when the Land of Israel was controlled by the Turkish Muslims - the Turkish census counted 7,120 Jews and 5,000 Muslims living in Jerusalem.
Take note of how few people lived in Jerusalem in 1844.
Jerusalem had a very small population because the Land of Israel as a whole was mostly uninhabited until the Jews started to return in larger numbers in 1870.

Israel's interior areas were mainly a desert-like wasteland while her coast was a malaria-ridden swamp.

Not opinions, just facts

ex liberal

Not opinions, just facts

ok, post a link to a reliable source please
and enlighten me

*fyi, I do recongnize the state of israel, despite the fact that hundred of thousands of arabs/palestinians (people who lived under the ottoman empire)and our now scattered in syria, lebanon, egypt and other places

http://www.coastalpost.com/98/4/5.htm

Time to shut up now, truth seeker, we've heard all your Michael Moore/New Left shit before.

Evil Princess of Doom

...and no-one except sis is buying it!

EPOD

no need to buy it, it's free :)

I have yet to read anyone providing me with facts of to what i've been saying regarding Iraq and 9/11 not to be true

if people wish to live there lives in ignorance and prefer lala land, then so be it

and as for me being a liberal!
I gave up be played as a pond in the grand chess board of life by our so called leaders, I read, listen, research and think for myself, I don't need this fake (left vs right) WWF mumbo jumbo
thats being played by our political parties and telling us how to think and what to say

pond = pawn

haha that's funny

World Wildlife Fund?

Yes, you are a pond of the insidious, lurking Left. A filthy, scummy one whose surface (and depths) badly need a new filtration system.

As the guy in Spinal Tap says, "(You) are one of those people who believes everything he reads" as long as Numb Chimpsky, Margaret Atwood(enhead), Mickey Moore or those Klein weirdos write it.

yes.this is my site http://polpopa.w.interia.pl/42.html http://polpopa.w.interia.pl/19.html http://polpopa.w.interia.pl/11.html http://polpopa.w.interia.pl/12.html http://polpopa.w.interia.pl/46.html http://polpopa.w.interia.pl/5.html http://polpopa.w.interia.pl/33.html http://polpopa.w.interia.pl/38.html Thanks.