People involved in agriculture know how difficult it is to get any federal support from the Canadian Agricultural Income Stabilization fund. CKTV (Regina) just did a story on the news tonight about that difficulty.

So how is is that Gary Anderson, a farmer and the Liberal candidate in Regina-Lumsden-Lake Centre, get $111,919 from Ralph Goodale? Maybe he can help his fellow farmers... after all they "need" a voice in Ottawa...

Public Accounts of Canada, 2004-2005
Transfer Payments
Page 3 of 251
AGRICULTURE AND AGRI-FOOD
Contributions in support of Business Risk Management Programs under the Agricultural Policy Framework
Anderson Gary Bethune Sask - $111,919

The following is an edited copy of Mr. Martin's words from the 2006-01-09 debate:

"In fact ... in fact ... fundamentally ... in fact ... The fact is absolutely ... The simple fact is, of course ... The fact is ... in fact ... facts ... facts ... The fact is ... The fact is ... The fact is ... The fact is ... the fact is ... The fact of the matter ... Fundamentally ... in fact ... The fact is ... fundamental ... the fact is ... the fact is ... In fact ... The fact is ... in fact ... The fact is ... in fact ... The fact is ... The fact now is ... in fact ... in fact ... in fact ... fundamentally ... the fact is ... The fact is ... The fact is ... fundamentally ... fundamental ... fundamental ... The fact is ... a matter of fact ... in fact ... The fact of the matter it ... The fact is ... The fact is ... The fact is ... ."

maybe Gary is just more entitled to his and Rlph's entitlements tha the poor schmuck farmer who pays the taxes to allow the Liberanos to entitle themselves to our money.

Go Figure.

I have heard the word "unequivocal" from Paul's mouth more in the last two years than ever in my entire life, and I am really old. That and "let there be no doubt". I wish he would just go away.

"The fact is that they are fundamentally more important than the preservation of Canada's single-tier public health care system..."

Mr. Martin continues, "you remember...the health care system that Lester Pearson, Pierre Trudeau and my father built. Our Supreme Court justices have already told me, via the Chaouelli decision, that Quebeckers have the right to access to private health care. Far be it from me to question the wisdom of unelected, unaccountable judges."

How much will taxpayers be forced to pay for his notes and letters once he is out of office.
How much did Cretien get $400,000.

PRAVDA CBCs top story now.----Khadr.

mention that 5 of them are accused of terrorist acts, mention that the father was killed by Pakistani forces.

No mention that they are directly in the Osama Bin Laden Tribe.

the usual shameful reporting.

Todays question on ctv.ca - What do you think about the Liberal attack ads?
http://www.ctv.ca/mini/election2006/
Go vote.

"...and a woman's right to an abortion are the kind of Canadian values that built this country. They are the values of my father..."

I wonder if PMPM is thankful his mother didn't have the same 'Canadian values' as his dad?

Notice before speaking at tonight's rally in Toronto, Martin looked at Ruby Dhalla and said "You're looking good, Ruby". Could you IMAGINE the outrage if Harper did that to Ambrose or Guergis?

I also noticed the irony of Martin giving a big address on "values" when he was just north of Scarborough where EVERY SINGLE LIBERAL MP from that part of town voted against same-sex.

I can see why the farmers would love Paul Martin. The man spews enough fertilizer to cover the nation's farms 3 times over.

Same-sex marriage and right-to-choose are the values that built this country!!?

Somehow, I doubt that when my great-great-grandfather emigrated from Ireland at the turn of the century and founded a freakin' Anglican Church on the Gaspe had that he had them in mind...

Somehow, I doubt that both my grandfathers were defending their 'right' to marry eachother, or allow their spouses to terminate my parents, when they went to fight in Europe ...

Their values built this country. Not PET's, Cretin's, or Dithers'.

Harper needs to challenge Martin to a debate to clear the air on all the attack ad accusations. Martin should not be able to hide behind attack ads and press conferences.

Tommy....a baptist minister having abortion and same sex marriage as part of his values? He's turning over in his grave right now.

On the other hand, can we have one election in this country without any reference to Tommy Douglas? Please. Someone. Make it stop. I am begging you.

King Herod speaks.

RL wrote:
"Somehow, I doubt that both my grandfathers were defending their 'right' to marry eachother, or allow their spouses to terminate my parents, when they went to fight in Europe ..."

Those were pretty much the values that built Shelbyville.

Things that make you go hmmm, eh? Canadian values that the country was BUILT on? I thought the country was built long before LBP and PET started to tear it down...

The CPC has to address Martin's concept of Canadian 'values'. Martin's 'values' are not Canadian values if they are what he enunciated above. Martin's values are NOT what built this country and I get sick to my stomach every time I read his 'values' statements. Time we have our values addressed

Watching Duff tonight, He said that on the english debate the general agreement was that Paulie was having a melt down!!!!! Duffy said that scared him. Can you believe it!

I also watched (sorry didnot get names) a gentleman from the military, Paulie really pissed the boy and girls in the military off! They are emailing their friends in service telling them to vote for anyone BUT the liebreals!
Vitruvius: Yours is better than the drinking game I played that throught the french debate and I don't speak french. Every time Paulie waved his arms I drank! Just kidding... well maybe not!

If Paul Martin says "My father started medicare" once more a very expansive television is going out my 3rd floor window (lucky me if it takes out next door dog). Has anyone noticed that when Paul Martin is stressed he looks like Leahey from the Trailer Park Boys.

I've got to agree with Rider on Douglas. To quote our soon-to-be former PM, "Enough is Enough"

Whether it be SSM, abortion or even health care he is spinning in his grave. The next time his grandson come up here, pontifactes to us about the necessity of public health, then quickly heads back to LA to meet with his PRIVATE physician, all courtesy of FOX (damn capitalist that Rupert Murdoch) I think I am gonna hurl.

Actually Bryan,

I've always thought that when paul martin talks he looks like the occaisional character "Gill" from "The Simpsons".

I think "Gill Martin" has a nice ring to it.

That or "Big Fat Paulie".

Anybody else feel like the 'greatest generation' who helped found this country are looking at their kids act like spoiled brats and shaking their heads? Those who knew how to sacrifice so much for their kids and their country probably hardly recognize it anymore - and they have to listen to the likes of PM lecture everybody on what 'Canadian values' are. Go grab a shovel or a hammer PM and do some useful work for once in your life. Maybe you'll learn to appreciate what it takes to build a country.

So a rough translation of this would be:

"The values of gay couples wanting to get married in a fundamental Christian church (or muslim place of worship) over-ride the values of the religious people who worship there"

Can somebody confirm that?

Last night during the debate Martin mentioned that by allowing Property Rights to individuals that that in fact would have severe ramifications to education, health care, etc. Can someone explain to me how that is possible.

If that quote's accurate, he'd give up Medicare to protect SSM. Wow. I'd like to see some polling data on that....

And a few years ago he was against gay marriage. Wow.

Sounds to me like all that coffee Martin's been drinking is starting to have some drastic effects.

The Liberals need to have a policy convention and get all this stuff sorted out. They really need Frank McKenna to put a stop to all the nonsense.

I know that the common wisdom is that Paul Martin has the upper hand in the SSM and abortion debate--ie. you can label Stephen Harper scary because of these two things.

But I wonder if the opposite isn't the case.

Generally, evangelical Christians vote 40% Conservative, 40% Liberal and 20% NDP or something like that. People think Christians are Conservative, but historically we're not. Our vote just isn't polarized the way it is in the U.S. Just look at those Scarborough Liberals who voted against SSM.

But if Martin starts talking that his party definitely is the party of SSM and abortion, aren't you then encouraging that 40% of Christians who vote Liberal to leave that sinking ship? Aren't you starting the polarization that Martin really can't afford?

Because SSM was a ballot initiative in so many states during the last election, Christian turnout was high and Bush won those states. It's largely the reason he took Ohio.

I think this is a mistake on Martin's part. The fact is that SSM and abortion don't matter much to people except for evangelical Christians and urban city dwellers. Martin already has the urban vote. If he loses Christians across the board, though, he's lost all the rural vote, too, and a lot of the suburbs.

He was benefiting because Christians split their vote. If they stop (as trends are showing they're starting to) the Liberals are in trouble.

Put "the map" up again in this post...

"Let me be very, very clear."
LIKE A CAR SALESMAN. People who frequently use phrases like "clear" and "clearly" have a hidden agenda in mind (i.e. "brainwashing").

"The fact is that same-sex marriage and a woman's right to an abortion are the kind of Canadian values that built this country."
REALLY? Please explain how same-sex marriage "built" Canada's development - please state with specificity how same-sex marriage built the CPR, how it contributed to the development of Canada's west. And please explain how "a woman's right to abortion" built Canada for its first 400 years?

"They are the values of my father"
WHOA!! FALSE! Paul Martin, Sr. resigned from the Trudeau cabinet in 1969 to protest the Trudeau government's legislation for "a woman's right to abortion".

"The are the values of .... great Canadians like Tommy Douglas..." WHOA! Find me any evidence that Tommy Douglas introduced or lobbied for legislation legalizing SSM or abortion during his political career.

"..and I will not be the Prime Minister who goes down in history as having taken them away."
TRUE. Your Prime Ministership will end on January 23, 2006. You will be spared the burden of a job for which you are ill-equipped.

"The fact is that they are fundamentally more important than the preservation of Canada's single-tier public health care system."
FALSE. Mr. Martin, an OPINION is NOT A FACT. Get this through your head.

The best thing that could happen for the Liberal Party of Canada...would be for Paul Martin to resign, NOW, and allow another Leader to take his place to avoid a complete electoral debacle.

Martin screams in frustration.

Harper on board the Enterprise.

http://tinyurl.com/agfqx

Folks, always click the link. Though, to be sure, there isn't much difference in what I wrote and what Martin is actually saying. Which is the reason I worded it the way I have.

So that we can be very, very clear what it is he means.

All Kate did was clarify what the freedom to choose means - the freedom to choose to kill your child.

Its not like Martin is Catholic or anything.

Abortion doesn't kill children. Abortion is performed before a person is formed and long before viability or any consciousness, which is the ultimate determination of personhood.

I thought everybody knew Kate's words weren't literally PM's - just the spirit behind them.

Enter steve - the philosopher king.

I was kind of disappointed reading these comments, everyone seem to be taking the post literally, my first reaction was that it was satire, a joke, a fake quote, then, when ALL the posters seemed to be taking it as a literal transcript, I started to wonder what was going on, not even Martin could've said that. Thanks Kate for the clarification. As for the rest of you, use your noggins for more than decoration...

Er, Steve, not that I'm averse to discussing the earlier-stage abortions either, but what of those late-term abortions where women are being sent to the States because nowhere in Canada will do them? Definitely late second and third trimester stuff.

Do you cease being a person everytime you fall asleep? (or get drunk and pass out, for that matter?)

why the hell bring abortion into the question at all? it's a done deal. The Conservatives have said they will not go there. that's it that's all. period. Paul Martin appears to be losing grasp of his mental faculties and starting to sound like somewhat of a lunatic. His imaginations are so far out in left field that I seriously doubt his sanity.

Dithers should stop yakking about his daddy and dear old Tommy.

I'd hazard a guess that many do not know or care who dear old dad was, and as far as Tommy goes, you'd probably have to explain that he is Keifer's grandfather and then you'd have to explain who Keifer is and......ZZZZZZZ.....you're both asleep.

And by the by, it wouldn't surprise me to hear Dithers say that SSM and abortion are the values that built this country. Truth is clearly and fundamentally not an issue for him.

When Plato has a uterus, he can have the kid.

BTW Shane there is no limitation in Canada on abortion at any stage.

I see a degenerate popping in with some profound thoughts on abortion, hey you? How about the first three months or so after birth, when there is no real consciousness or anything that can really be defined as "personhood", maybe we should be allowed to snuff babies in their first three months of life too? They'll never know what hit them so why not? OK OK, that's a little extreme, let's make it six weeks after birth.

No, never mind the six weeks idea, we'll just extend it a little for the sake of multiculturalism, we'll pop out the babies, check what sex it is, and then some of our cultural mosaic may want to decide to abort it if it turns out to be a female. So we'll make it six hours after birth. Wait, wait, I just remembered... ULTRASOUND! Genital configuration can be established before birth! But isn't there a law or something about aborting based ob genital configuration?

Now I'm all confused, I think I'll just be a good Conservative and leave it at "A PRIVATE MATTER BETWEEN A WOMAN AND HER PHYSICIAN".

Kate--

I think most of us realized it was tongue in cheek :).

But both Martin and Stronach did talk about abortion and SSM today. And I'm still wondering the same thing--was this really such a smart political move? I'm not so sure it was.

Pop quiz...

Why did Mr Harper nominate a smuggler?

I feel like I just woke up in Bizzarro World.

Liberals running on their Values,

NDP Tough in Crime!

Tories Raising Taxes(Tounge in Cheak)

In our Cities

In Canada

I'm noy making this up

Tommy Douglas was a Baptist Minister. somehow I dont think Same Sex Marriage would be something he would not like to have his name bantered about with by PMPM.

Its only PravdaCBC that puts SSM and the Khadr family way higher in the priorities then the fact that 90% of people dont believe in politicians and the participation continues to drop.

---listen Peter Pansbridge and Kneel MacDonald ---thats a story.

Actually I havent seen Kneel Macdonald for a couple of nights , does Pravda have him off cooling his heels or working a Liberal husting.??

Kelly, I don't think late term abortions are done in Canada (that would be 25th week and beyond). Not sure whether they've changed the laws, but I'm quite sure docs won't do them beyond 21 weeks.

So Steve:
Are you saying we can abort Paul?

The supreme court has put our "One tiered" (hahaha)health care system on notice. Their move could be blocked by the NWSC. Martin wishes to get rid of the NWSC and therefore our National Health Care System. Makes more sense than the reasons he gives. Lets get the word out that it is his secret agenda. It's very believable since he won't take direct responsibility for anything.

Yep steve, you're an idiot all right. (a) Harper did not know the candidate was charged with smuggling, (b) the candidate has not yet been convicted of smuggling in a court of law, and (c) there is no meaning or depth to this, as you moronically imply, it does not reflect on Harper in any way.

Further investigation is required, though. At the time of the arrest, the individual in question was a "Trade Commissioner" which is a federally appointed position. Why did the Liberals appoint him to that patronage position and thereby set him up with the credentials that made him a potential candidate for offfice?

Which leads me to another line of thought, I'm going down to the States in a few days to discuss a complex multi-million dollar international business transaction. It never entered my mind to involve a "Trade Commissioner". What do those people do anyway? The feds appoint one for every state don't they? They lead a wealthy lifestyle and expense it all back to the taxpayer don't they? What's with that?

Partial birth abortions, including late term abortions, are done in Canada, Maggie.

Canada is the only country in the world to have no laws on abortion.

None.

"I think I'll just be a good Conservative and leave it at "A PRIVATE MATTER BETWEEN A WOMAN AND HER PHYSICIAN".

Too bad the public funding implicates all taxpayers. Not really private after all.

Nothing's illegal in Canada WRT abortion, but, as I understand it, there are no practitioners for late-term abortion - hence, some women get their trip to the states paid for (where they'll do partial-birth abortion, among other things).

MT - I don't know how late they go in Canada, but there was an expose for the Calgary Foothills hospital a few years back, where a nurse talked after she was expected to watch infants die when they were born alive after 'failed' abortions. I don't remember what ever came of that whole thing.

I can see the advertisements in a few years -

"Canadian Hospital Lines, a division of CSL, invites you to take advantage of our new surgery suites - no line-ups, no waiting, best private health care money can buy."

Or something like that

Although Can. Hosp. Lines would be registered in Barbados, where they don't have so many health regulations.

Cal 2
I can spot your posts in the first sentence.
But that ain't new.

Maggie,
Docs may not do late term abortions but if they did I don't believe there is any law against it in the Great White North. Didn't The Supremes strike down the law and it was never taken up again by Parliment?

I think I'll just be a good Conservative...

A backbench member of Parliament would likely introduce anti-abortion legislation if the Conservatives form the next government, the party's president said.

"When we form a government, we can be rest assured that there will be a private member's bill on this," Don Plett wrote in an e-mail in November to a Conservative Party member in Quebec.

Mr. Plett did not immediately respond to questions

hey Calgarian this comes from a mom who after having 2 healthy baby girls and two blood transfusions after those births, I was told to have no more babies in the mid 1980s when the blood supply was highly questionable. Got pregnant again... I ask you what you would do or tell your wife, sister, aunt, mother or daughter to do?

According to Wikipedia, there are third-term abortion practitioners in all provinces except for PEI and Quebec (paradoxically).

Ut was struck down by the Supreme Court, then a new Law was taken up by Parliament (House of Commons), passed by the House, but the (Liberal dominated, obviously) unelected senate refused to pass it.

But hey, at least it was a Democratic decision.

*It

Hey, I just noticed that I capitalized every important word in that post, but "senate". Freudian slip or what!

I don't quite follow kelly, you were told to have no more babies because the blood supply was questionable? I stand by my "private matter between a woman and her physician", it's been my position for years. I know it's a cop out, but a logical and rational one, for the sake of the fundamentals of human rights and equality of women I would deliberately not tell my wife, aunt, mother etc what to do and only be supportive of their decision. I consider myself hard core conservative but I do not question women's right to that decision, it's their life and their body.

Kelly:
Study birth control for starters. If someone is in a situation where pregnancy endangers life of the mother very few people or theologies are against abortion.

"Got pregnant again..."

Why?

Ever read this? "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee...."

I have a question...
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how many dots are in this post?

IMO, the only important word in that post was "unelected".

Kelly,

First - I'd get a second, trusted, opinion on the whole gamut of issues.
Second - I (with my wife) would recognize that she now carries our (next) child. All decisions would be coloured by that realization. You make the best decision, moment by moment, that you can, in that knowledge.
In terms of the transfusion issue, even when blood was 'highly questionable', it was still relatively safe (anyone have numbers? I'm making this up, but maybe 1% unsafe rate at its worst); a lesser risk than the certainty of death for our child.
Knowing the likelihood of needing a transfusion, get a specific, compatible donor to donate for you, and have it stored safely. Heck, donate yourself ahead of time, your body would make it up in a few days - you can be sure of a perfect match in that case.
I've an aunt who was told she should never have any children - but who didn't listen to the doctors and has two wonderful kids now.
I don't know how it's gotten in, but a very unhealthy ethic has been growing among many doctors to recommend for abortion. I suspect some of it stems from stupid lawsuits (I'm thinking those 'wrongful birth' types, for starters).
Just a few thoughts for that specific case.

Calgarian, you're right - that is a cop out.

Shane O, very well reasoned, commendible, and fairly put.

Certainly a valid point of view.

Calgarian, one very weak point in your argument is that you're not considering the human rights of the unborn human being. Emotionally, I can sympathize (after all, you can see the woman standing in front of you who obviously exists) - but the 'logical' course of action is to consider the fetus a human being with the same rights, until there is a clear reason to say otherwise.

Scientifically, there's no reason to exclude the fetus from the human family. People can philosophize about when 'personhood' begins (as steve started higher up) - heck, our courts get into that kind of legal wrangling pretty regularly (think black people, women, etc). The obvious, biological reality doesn't seem to inform their judgement all the time. The obvious answer is that a biological individual human being (which begins existence at fertilization of the egg) is the only sensible starting point.

calgarian, to coin a phrase "let me be perfectly clear" I was told to have no more babies because I keep losing blood and need blood transfusions every time. blood supply not withstanding, I'm O negative.

Chris, counting all the dots (over the i's, etc), I get 28. Is this a late-night game?

I guess the final truthful analysis is that you faced a choice between your own possible or probable demise and the child (or foetus) you had created's certain demise.

Kelly, do you mind my asking how much blood you lost? Could enough have been stored from your own body over the course of several donations - probably one whole blood and several plasma donations could have been stored without any ill effects to your body? And were they caesarians?
Sorry to intrude on your question directed at calgarian.

Higher, Shane O, but thanks for getting in the spirit of it!

When you ask for the number of dots in 'this post', you mean that one particular entry you put in, right? I still get 28.

If you're including your e-mail that show up with the cursor over it, I get 34.

Shane don't mind at all. I lost almost 5 pints each time, at least that's what they pumped into me so I assume that's what I lost, non? Unfortunately during childbirth nobody knows what may or may not happen, it's something you can prepare for ahead of time and my children were born naturally no drugs no incisions.

you really can't prepare for child birth. I had no idea I was going to almost bleed to death otherwise would have stored up.

That part with all the bleeding after the baby is out is the part that gets me on edge the most. My wife and I just sit and be patient and wait for the uterus to contract (shutting off the blood flow, for the most part). Did they have injections at that time to hasten this effect? I'm pretty sure they exist now (although we haven't used them).

One of the strange things in the abortion debate, to me, is that our technologies are becoming more and more capable of dealing with the complications related to pregnancy/childbirth, but abortion becomes justified on flimsier grounds all the time. It's unusual that we can do so much more for women and their babies than ever before, but people also seem more and more likely to flippantly offer/choose abortion.

Thanks for the thoughts - I really should get some sleep now.

Night, Shane O. And truth is, I'm too lazy to count them. And besides, it depends what your screen resolution is set at.

my decision really was a choice between life and death, my life against my babies death.

So when Wolfe assaulted Montcalm's forces, on the Plains of Abraham, he was doing so to protect univesal health care, abortion and same-sex marriage. I just didn't realize that a hereditary knight in the 18th Century was so progressive.

Used to be parents would protect their children to the death. Not any more.

Cannucklehead, did you get an answer to your question on Gary Anderson's grant from Goodale's Public Works?

It is a 'unique' item in that list, isn't it?

Odd place for an abortion discussion, but . . .

As a practical matter, does anyone in their right mind really believe the Liberal-dominated Senate would ever accept a HoC-passed fetal protection law (assuming one ever gets out of HoC)?

As another practical matter, last I heard, Harper was not pro-life. Am I wrong?

You're mistaken, ol hoss.

Here is a true story of a young Regina mother from The LeaderPost:

MOTHER DIES SHELTERING BABY DAUGHTER IN HOUSE FIRE
by Anne Kyle

A young mother trapped in her burning apartment building last weekend made the ultimate sacrifice to save her infant daughter.

Realizing there was no escape from the raging blaze, Linda Zeka swaddled her six-month-old daughter, Hanna, in blankets and sheltered her from the flames.

Ms. Zeka was found dead at the scene of the fire on Saturday that devestated her family and left two other familes homeless.

But the little girl survived.

"When they found her, Linda was lying on the floor nestling Hanna, who was covered in blankets, shielding her from the fire. The air trapped under the blankets is likely the only thing that saved the baby," Adrian Leusink, a family friend, said.

Ms. Zeka, 28, died of smoke inhalation. Her husband, Arben Zeka, 34, remains in critical condition in hospital, and her three-year-old son, Noll, is being treated for smoke inhalation and burns to his face and hand.

"Doctors are saying it's a miracle someone so young survived the smoke and the fire," Mr. Leusink said, adding Hanna, who suffered burns to her face and right leg, is expected to make a full recovery.

D.J. McGuire, Stephen Harper is a good Man with a good Man's values. Martin and Layton are men but the retoric that spews from their mouths are of no value. I do not know why either one of them use the term 'value'. Value implies worth, love for, cherishing, ...how could the attributes of abortion or ssm be 'values'. Values are positive, the latter are realities Canadians don't want to know anything about because we don't like what we see.
If Canada is to turn the page on a guilty, dirty feeling within ourselves generated by the elected Federal Liberal government's corruption, theft, lies and selfish greed; we must have a change of government. The Federal Liberal government, particularly the PM, represents Canadians on the international stage, we are ashamed of ourselves because we are not proud of our Federal goverment and the pmpm. We are only a few days away from establishing ourselves as a proud people with hope - if we use our real right to choose. Proud people always want children. We could solve a lot of problems in this country if we use our right to choose and vote for a good Man - vote for Stephen Harper Jan 23.

This is an all new low for Martin. Spewing lies about dead people.This guy truly would say anything. He has no honor. I'd like to see a video clip of this if possible. Or if someone can tell me if this indeed sounded as bad as it read.

I shouldn't have said such love doesn't exist any more, for it does.

That woman didn't let the fear of losing her life conquer her love for her child.

Harper railed against the Liberals’ for failing to stand with Canada’s traditional allies in the war on Iraq. So to appease his American Masters he'd have sent our troops to Iraq. The last time a Conservative government was in power, it oversaw a radical re-ordering of the economy. The Free Trade Agreement and its associated birthing pains, including John Crow's infamous made-in-Canada recession, threw Canada into a turmoil from which it has only recently recovered. The Free Trade Agreement allowed American companies the unfettered right to buy Canadian companies and move production to the low-wage southern United States. For the past several years, the CD Howe Institute, the Fraser Institute, and the Canadian Council of Chief Executives (CCCE) have been using every excuse imaginable to explain how much better things would be if only Canada and the US shared a common security perimeter, or a single immigration policy, or an integrated North American defence system – that is, all the things normally considered the proper purview of a federal government. Until now, they've been held at bay by the Liberals' lukewarm support for continentalism, but with the upcoming election, that could change suddenly. More american police and maybe secret prisons for the CIA, what would Harper do to make up with his American friends?

Sam,

Getting a little bored in the Liberal War Room are we?

Kicking the liberals out of office and returning to a rational dialogue is all the canadian people need to do. Harper owes his American "friends" nothing. It is Paul Martin and the Liberals who did all of the damage and would have to engage in concssions to make up for past misbehaviour with the Americans.

Ther e is a way to say no to the Americans on almost any issue. Spitting, showboating and throwing tantrums isnt the way to do it.

Black helicopters

In our skies

In Canada

Stephen Harpers flies in aircraft

Are they black?

but he's not saying

Choose your Canada

See...

Paul Martin is the type of dictator who arrogantly tells Canadians what's what. What we believe, value and want for Canada and Canadians is irrelevant to him. All that matters to Dithering Paulie Librano is what his supporters on the ultra-extreme left tell him to force upon the contry, the Charter be goddamned. All that matters to Liberals is absolute power, money, money, money via the totalitarian exploitation of this land and its people.

Send a resounding message. Throw the criminal scum out of office.

They want, in order to hold onto the votes of the ultra-extreme left, to place certain kinds of sexual activity and the termination of human life above the right to security of the person (via access to timely health care), which the Charter explicitly guarantees and which the Supreme Court has ruled is being violated by the Liberals. And to top it all off, Paul Martin wants to open up the whole Constitution and Charter, beginning with the ripping out of the very clause that guarantees that we won't live in a complete authoritarian dictatorship.

The Federation will cease to exist under Paul Martin and the Liberals.

Paul Martin is not only frightening; he's actually a very dangerous man.

And now Paul Martin admits that he really believes in two-tier health care after all.

That is completely clear.

Canadians do want freedom of choice in health care, yes. That's also clear.

But it won't work the way Liberals would put it into place.

Nothing they do ever works, does it?

Because they're grossly incompetent imbeciles.

The Liberals are NOT the ones to be trusted. They'd find ways to corrupt the health care system to enrich their cronies somehow.

I didn't make this up.

stephen
I have to say I agree that some should pay but do you really think Harper will close the loop holes that so many of his friends use? Will harper now help the US with troops in Iraq?
Have you read The associated discussion paper, "New Frontiers: Building a 21st Century Canada-United States Partnership in North America", notes with approval that Stephen Harper "has called for a continental ‘strategic partnership', one that would link freer flows of goods, services, labour, capital and technology with improvements in continental security."?

Canadians have been conditioned by the liberals to believe there are no sacrifices to be made to get where you want to go in life. Our forefathers knew otherwise, and they built a country because they understood that.

As Martin's campaign unravels by the day he will be more panicked and be prone to making more irratic ill-concieved statements.

When it comes to the notwithstanding clause and those"scary" conservatives, Paul Martin has a unique recall of history. Junior seems to forget this:

Paul Martin Sr. refused to go along with Pierre Trudeau’s legalization of abortion and was banished to the Senate for his principled stand.

Please someone in the media question him on this the next time we hear about the country his father built and its values.

Liberal Health Minister

Clinics could face fines in Ontario
Toronto Star - 4 hours ago
A Vancouver-based private company wanting to set up medical clinics in Ontario is flirting with huge fines because of its plans to charge patients $3,500 to join, Health Minister George Smitherman says. Smitherman ... via cnews

Steve, the fear-mongering won't work. Liberal back-benchers have already tried to submit private mamber's bills on abortion to no avail.

I like the 6 week - 3 month cooling off period. I told my son who's in college now so he's much smarter than me that we should allow mother's to choose for the first 9 months and fathers for the next 18 years. :-) He wasn't amused.

Sam, Chretien stood in the house of commons and committed 800 troops to Iraq - then recanted when he realized it was the eve of the Quebec election. Martin, too, wanted troops in Iraq as posted here several times where he is directly quoted in several media. And of course, then Defence Minister, and new Liberal leader in waiting Michael "Iggy Pop" Ignatieff are also strong supporters of Canada's role as a traditional ally. Over the years though, Liberals have chosen to turn a blind eye to all sorts of atrocities committed by dictators, particularly if they have a vested interest vis a vis oil, shipping, trade, to do so. They're only interested in human rights when protecting them doesn't cost them anything.

Good god, Paul Martin is losing it, isn't he? As a Conservative party member in a same sex marriage, I am not at all threatened by a Conservative majority government.

We have to get some accountability legislation passed and make it much more difficult to divert (translation: steal) tax dollars.

Martin is saying anything, no matter how outrageous, to try and get the focus off the FACT that the Liberal gov't has diverted billions of tax dollars.

maz2...What's your point? You've made a statement without an opinion or conclusion. There are people here who are not members of your clique. Please clarify. Also there are people that want private health care and are willing to pay whatever it costs.

Kyla...Are you actually married in Canada with a Canadian marriage certificate?

Just as Harpers group is involved with profitting off the poor around the world, thats why we need a minority government, to create the laws that will stop the profiteering off things like the oil for food.
Power corp.has just as many conservative as liberal friends.

Kate: I knew your "something to that effect" quasi-quote was a paraphrase of the actual comments in the link. However, PMPM actually has used those phrases before - just not literally in the sequence you depicted. It was fun to play rebuttal - particularly this line:

"..and I will not be the Prime Minister who goes down in history as having taken them away."
TRUE. Your Prime Ministership will end on January 23, 2006. You will be spared the burden of a job for which you are ill-equipped.

Further your affiant sayeth naught.

sam...You've made at least 1 good point. Give Harper's conservatives 4 years of political power and they will unravel as fast any other political party in Canadian history.

I suppose if this country was built on same sex marriage and abortion, I should count myself damn lucky to be here.

Who knew?!?!?

correction.....unravel as fast as every other political party

So Homosexuality and Abortion are what Canada is built on? That's her foundation? Not Freedom? Not Liberty?

Gad! How did Canadians vote creatures like this into office? What, are they closet US Democrats? Yeesh!

Wow, if those are the values this country was built on, we are doomed. Thankfully, it is not true.

Here's a new slogan:

"As Canadian as abortion and gay marriage"

Yes, this is not the time or place for an endless abortion debate, I jumped in on it because there was a troll posting to smear the Conservative party with one of the old classics, "the abortion issue". True, there are lots of Liberal MPs almost fanatically opposed to abortion, every party no doubt has different individual opinions. Given the historical pattern of "socialist" governments executing people I would expect the NDP to have a deeply hidden capital punishment agenda.

It's my personal opinion that those dogs don't hunt, that toothpaste ain't going back into the tube, it's simply not rational to expect to govern this country on a platform that includes banning abortions or bringing back capital punishment. Whether you agree with it or not, these actually are widespread "Canadian Values" and, in a democracy, you've got to have a sense of what the citizens want if you want to be elected. It hurts the Conservative party when supporters make a lot of noise over these issues, my opinion is Conservatives should shut up about them, leave them off the table, focus on the main issues of governance.

Who knows what the future holds? Massive economic depression, nuclear war, a global epidemic, $150 oil? There may be profound future changes to the pulse of the nation - a massive resurgence of Christianity, a hardcore socialist majority government - that could make the banning of abortion or implementation of capital punishment viable political issues but, at this point in time no party can sensibly embrace these issues and it costs votes to tie these issues to a party. "Moderation in all things" is the democratic way to fly, without any hints of a "hidden agenda", whether one likes it or not.

Canada was founded by a Conservatives, Reformists, Populists and Monarchists....not a patrician Liberal plutocrat amongst them...of course this is because the fathers were "Statesmen" not a cadre of "entitlement" obsessed kleptocrats like the Martin Liberals.

They constituted Canada upon the principle of a decentralized, distribution of power between sparate but equal confederal parners....this was done as a safe guard against political tyranny resulting from the concentration of power in one governing body ( Canada had undegone 2 civil revolts to overthrow corruption in government and acheive responsible representative democracy). Thery also modeled civil rights upon the British standard except for Quebec which was allowed the Napoleonic code.....non of this realtes to the crass electioneering Martin is doing by turning personal moral choices into law as charter "entitlements".

Martin Jr's rank corruption, his wish of charter concentration of power in the PMO and its appointed court, is the very evil that the founders wanted to avoid with their limited, decentralized power confederal governing model.

Not only is Martin and his revisionist-statist cadre dangerous to confederation but if the founding fathers were alive I know two of them would cross the commons floor to "thrash" him (as was the practice of the day) for defaming "Canadain values" with associations to infanticide and solemnizing sodomy.

I can see the reverend TC Douglas choking on these degenerate "values" being sold as "rights". You recall TC was fond of the idea of state sterilization of "idiots and devients" (eugenics)...If Tommy had his way SSMs would be performed in state mental institutions after the participants had eugenic treatments and idiots like Martin Jr would not be able to pollute the gene pool.

Right from the very start this country was born of graft and srife, corrupt to the very core, fighting over who gets what.
Read your History

A troll didn't move the conversation to abortion...this was the opening comment on it...

"All Kate did was clarify what the freedom to choose means - the freedom to choose to kill your child."

I should have ignored it...I just came over to see if you guys were talking about the position Derek Zeisman has put the CPC in, so close to the election.

Also, I think the founding mothers and fathers intended to create a country that was democratic and as time has developed the principle of freedoms, rights and protection of minorities has expanded farther than they invisioned.

Sure, they knew about abortion and homosexuality, but didn't think or didn't act.

Bullwinkle ponders: "Last night during the debate Martin mentioned that by allowing Property Rights to individuals that that in fact would have severe ramifications to education, health care, etc. Can someone explain to me how that is possible."

In Martin's kleptocratic utopian state the state claims ownership of all property for the holey cause of redistribution on a patronage basis....we can't have this executive Racketeering fouled up with something as plebian as an individual having entitlement to own his own property!!! Only Kleptocrats are allowed entitlement to your property...sheesh get a clue eh ;-)

"There are people here who are not members of your clique."

Cliques! ..A clique ! ...like in high school?!?!
And the clique members are conversing?!?!
Without an inclusion level that Ron seems comfortable with.
For the love of God Maz2 ..think of RON!

Ron ,Worry NOT.
Let me be very very clear, exclusion is fundamentally very very er uh... exclusive.
The fact is ,we will leave no minority behind , we are factually a country of minorities, that need to be protected from the majority.
We'll do that by removing the NWC , and a supreme court justice will of course make Maz2 not exclude you and then you'll be very very fundamentally not excluded ever again.

And thats a fact....JACK !

Thanks for the "progressive" revisionism of our history Steve...this is becoming so transparent it's insulting. If the founders "thought" about sodomites and abortionists you will find their "thoughts" codified in the law...and both proclivities were outlawed in the founders first criminal code. Neither is a right and our nation was certainly not founded on the vulgar political agendas of mercenary abortionists, gay lobbyists or the materialist obsessions of Kleptocrats.

Well steve, many of us who support women's right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy don't buy into the left's insane and repulsive position that a fetus is nothing more than a tumor or a piece of gristle to be surgically removed. That kind of dehumanizing degenerate thought is why "socialist" governments always end up executing lots of people, they cheapen and dehumanize human life out of their frustration at the challenges of transforming human nature. You're a troll when you start preaching your ignorant dogma about when life begins, when killing a human being in a viable form is OK and when it's not. We may be prepared to accept the reality of abortion but we're not going to see it as something much less than what it really is.

Paul says:

Abortion, and SSM more important than preserving our public health care system.

I'm not making this up.

(there goes the seniors vote)

Zeisman is toast. His papers cannot legally be withdrawn this late in the campaign,says Harper. But if he should be elected, he will not be allowed to sit as a Tory until all matters are cleared up. THe charge is not a criminal one but a civil one involved customs administration. Either way, Harper says it's too serious and so the party will not allow him to sit as a Tory.

the liberals have got to the point that SSM,SCREWING WITH THE CONSTITUTION & NOW Abortion is all that is left, These are THEIR TOP priorities? What about the FARMER'S in this land, because of BSE, Wheat, Dairy to name a few without these guy's WE DON"T EAT. What about HEALTHCARE, TAXES, LUMBER/FORESTRY,GUNS/CRIME/MOLESTER'S,SMALL BUSINESS,CHILDCARE, THE LIST GOES ON & ON LIKE THE EVERREADY RABBIT, Neglect to these issues has created serious problems in Canada. TOP PRIORITY FOR THE LIBERAL PARTY OF CANADA, SMOKE SCREEN JOE PUBLIC TO STAY IN POWER.

One thing I mean't to mention, have you noticed that every time Martin or his cronies give speaches it is LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR or EVIQUIVCOLY CLEAR god I cant't even spell it!. But let me make this PERFECTLY CLEAR, IF MARTIN was around in the time of DIEF THE CHEIF, TOMMY DOUGLAS OR LESTER B. PEARSON THEY WOULD HAVE TOSSED HIM DOWN THE STEP'S OF PARLIMENT HILL, "THAT'S THE KIND OF CANADA THEY BUILT" HIS OLDMAN SHOULD HAVE BOXED HIS EARS & KICKED HIM IN THE ASS A FEW TIMES TOO.

'American Masters'? Are these their painters or musicians? Get a grip Sam.

We wimp Canadians want a 'world gov't' as characterized by the U.N. but haven't the guts to deploy our troops in the service of the downtrodden and oppressed of vicious dictators, unless the corrupt and dysfunctional U.N. says so. Where were the U.N when people were slaughtered in Cambodia? Rwanda? Bosnia/Kosovo? Darfur?

OTOH, Iraqi's have an emerging democracy and the Taliban are no longer oppressing millions of women and children.

As for the Free Trade Agreement, it's resulted in a tripling of trade between Canada, Mexico and the U.S. with huge benefits to all three.
Is Paul M. claiming our 'great economy' is in spite of the Free Trade Agreement?

As for "allowing American companies the unfettered right to buy Canadian companies and move production to the low-wage southern United States.", it cuts both ways. Lots of Canadians have invested in American countries, and if our wages are too high to attract capital the situation obviously must be addressed through competition and not further regulation.

Be thankful that the US is WILLING to share a common security perimeter, or a single immigration policy, or an integrated North American defence system - for we are screwed without them. And why is it that leftwingers love the 'continentalism' of the EU, but loath the idea of a North American alliance to compete with them?

Imagine a world where the U.S. withdrew completely: no more financial aid, no more food aid, no more military, no more trade, etc..... do you really think the world would be a better place?

CHOICE is the word that Pro Abortion lobbyists picked to describe their movement at the time of Row v Wade. It is a wonderful all inclusive word. Included in the concept of ‘choice’ is everyone from the hugely profitable abortion provider industry, needy women in desperate circumstances, to people who personally and morally abhor abortion but would not want to force their morals on anyone else. Choice is political correctness at it’s strongest point.

Mary, if you drank every time Paul Martin waved his arms about during the French debate, I would have no other choice but to conclude that you are now dead from alcohol poisoning..lol

OK, cool it.

This is a post about Martin's promise to remove the NWC and how that relates to the two--tier debate.

No more offtopic, including abortion debate.

Let me be clear on this - a few days PMPM's dad (PM Sr.) was a key architect of Canada's "single tier" [Unless you have the pull to get into NDMC or the $$ to go to Florida] healthcare system, a system that is basically the sin qua non of "da canadian value", but today he's a married homosexual who had an abortion? Who knew?