CBC made the mistake of interviewing a local minister (baptist, I believe) about the problem and no matter how she manipulated the interview, he kept going back to teen moms, irresponsible parenting, the cycle of poverty that is the result, and the culture of rap that promotes the culture of screwing teen girls to prove manhood and walking away from the fallout. He wouldn't budge, and she was looking to blame lack of whatever it is the left is blaming these days.

The quote of the day: Toronto has finally lost its innocence!
I live on Yonge street, not too far north of Dundas Square. Finally lost its innocence...are we that blind that it takes an event like yesterday to say something that prophetic?
My husband has been talking about getting his handgun, which is safely locked up at his uncle's ranch in Sask., because he is sick of not feeling safe. A handgun ban is the fix...right, because law abiding citizens should be left vulnerable like sheep in a pasture; anything less wouldn't be the Canadian way.
We have perfect models of how to end this crap to our south. New York, Buffalo and Detriot have all dealt with this. Why not use their models? Because that would require giving our police more power, and we can't do that, because that wouldn't be the Canadian way.
So instead, law abiding citizens are gunned down, and we are just supposed to stand back and wear targets on our chests saying: Shoot me, the law won't touch you! I'm so sick of this.
Lost Budgie hit it on the head. Welcome to Mayor Miller's Toronto - land of the soon to be innocent bystander.

It's all over CNN, so there might be some action simply because the governments of all lvels might no care about Canadian citizens, but they sure do care about the almight tourist buck. Good for CNN for their in your face coverage, which, on most days gives me dyspepsia. But today, I'm so proud to be a Canadian, knowing that we have a Charter that will make sure these little foockers get the best legal aid my money will buy.

Nearly on topic, looks like former Montreal Expo pitcher Jeff Reardon is going with the "Sven Robinson" defense:

Reardon charged with armed robbery
Former All-Star reliever blames medication for arrest

Jeff Reardon, one of the top relief pitchers in history, blamed medication for depression after his arrest for a jewelry store robbery.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/12/27/bc.bba.reardonarrested.ap/index.html

My $0.02 worth. The Liberal gun policy of the last ten years is not at fault here. I lived in Toronto years ago under the old gun control program and in the twenty years there I cannot remember any public shootings comparable to what has happened in the last year or so. I'm afraid that the causes of this violence are the left-leaning liberal criminal enforcement policies and the unfettered liberal immigration policies. Until the majority of 416 get their heads out of Trudopia this type of violence will escalate. You cannot police a city that is out of control without a lot of bloodshed, look at Chicago in the '20's and '30's. When 99% of the population are forced to go unarmed, and off-duty police officers are not allowed to carry weapons then the criminal element have been handed an 'open season' for their profession, and we are all going to suffer for this in the future.

BTW, Warren Kinsella advised John Tory on winning that election.

Folks, I think Toronto has had a bad deal from the deck. First, SARonto/SARSonto. Now this.

When the CPC gets in I want to see these things happen in this area:

- Scrap the stupid gun law. All guns should be registered at time of purchase. No problem with that. Anyone with a record needs to apply to the police. Law-abiding citizens need only fill out a form at time of purchase.

- Add to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms the right to bear arms.

- Add to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms the specific right to self defence.

- Change the criminal code to make a crime with a gun punishable with an extra 6 years added to whatever sentence is handed down for the original crime. No exceptions.

- Change the criminal code to include deportation to the perpetrator's country of origin for serious crimes that involve a gun immediately upon release from prison. No appeal allowed.

- Change the criminal code to include deportation for any illegal immigrant who is a member of a street gang, regardless of the charge, immediately upon release from prison. No appeal allowed.

- If a criminal enters Canada illegally after being deported they go right to jail for a time specified in the original sentence and then deported again. No appeal allowed.

- Properly fund the RCMP to hire more officers.

Can't think of anything else right now but I'm sure I missed something. This post doesn't address other issues like funding for the armed forces, etc. That's another post.

If the Federal government, RCMP and Canadian Courts are unable to address these issues then each province has the right to address them on their own. If these issues prove impossible for the next Federal government, be it CPC or Liberal, then the next provincial government elected to Alberta needs to address them, separation or not. The Notwithstanding Clause was included for a reason. Maybe it's time to use it. But that would require a provincial politician with some guts, something we haven't seen much of lately.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; gun violence is a far more complicated problem than either side of the political spectrum will admit. Until systemic poverty, drug abuse, the profitablity that prohibition causes, readily available (typically illegally imported) handguns, light sentences for violent/sexual offenders, difficulty re-integrating non-violent/non-sexual offenders back into society, and etc. are dealt with there will be problems with (gun) violence in society; simply banning guns or cracking down on drugs doesn't solve anything, banning guns disarms honest, inocent people whereas cracking down on drugs increases the profitability of drugs for those people who are the most violent.

Get off Miller's back!

Sure a few people are getting popped now and then. And we get our garbage picked up every other week. And our roads look like Beirut.

You rubes (h/t to RM) aren't seeing the big picture.

Because if you did, you'd get down on your knees and praise Mayor Miller for saving us from the Apocalypse that would have been the... gasp.... bridge to the Island.

And clearly and frankly, isn't that what is truly important here?

I'm sure once Miller gets back from Spain, he will not waste a second in announcing that we "all need to re-double our efforts" to get the guns off the streets.... which, are now "double really illegal" since Paulie Librano said so at the corner of Jane & Finch.

John Crittenden

That's a awesome post. You have my vote on all of them. Now all we have to do, is elect some people that will carry them through.

John
why I should pay full price of $40.000 per year for them to be in jail- for half price Russia was going to provide the service?

NoOne. I agree. The problem I see though is illegal immigrant crime. We will always have enough criminals of our own. Why do we have to import more?

I still say a LOT of this can be eliminated by simply deporting anyone convicted of a crime who is a member or a street gang or any criminal organization. And, of course, immediate deportation of ANY immigrant who is found to be in Canada illegally. There are proper channels set up for anyone wanting to immigrate to Canada. What good are the rules if our laws do not support them? Again, as with the Gun Legislation, current immigration laws only hurt law abiding citizens.

I agree whole-heartedly with John Crittenden. Reality will be however that the Liberals with use this tragic event to further their handgun ban agenda and the public will go along because of fear. After all, such a ban only affects a minority and it gives the political impression of "tough action"

The facts are that there is not a shred of statistically valid evidence that the 1-2b registry has done anything to reduce gun violence or that it has aided in the solving of firearms related crime. The guns used by these criminals have been restricted in Canada for more than 70 years yet they still get used for criminal purposes. In the UK, where severe restrictions were placed on firearms ownership some years ago, there was no reduction in murder. The perps just switched to knives and now they are talking about banning kitchen cooking knives.

While we are at it why don't be ban hammers, axes, chain saws, baseball bats, and any and all objects that might be used against another person.

More useless bans on "things" are not going to solve the problem. Crittenden has it right.

"BanGun-BanGun Registry" SSMartin speaking from his teeth. Martin's hug-a-thug Liberal policies stand condemned. >>

Prime minister condemns deadly Toronto Boxing Day shooting
OTTAWA (CP) - A Boxing Day shooting that killed one teen and injured several other shoppers in downtown Toronto was a "needless tragedy," particularly coming at the holiday season, says Prime Minister Paul Martin.>>
canoenews

Perhaps we need to bring back conscription, one year in the army to learn discipline which is not being applied in homes with or without fathers. They would get to fire guns until they are bored with it, exercise and mixing with people from different backgrounds, rather than their black gang memberships. Something would rub off at least on some of the young hoodlums.

Josef, a bad deal?

This is self-inflicted. A lefty mayor, lefty premier, a city that has gone all Liberal four terms in a row federally, and lefty police chief, and it's a bad deal?.

Maybe if Toronto got its head out of its collective ass, and voted for someone who gave a damn about the city, maybe something could be done about this.

Instead, it will only get worse, because no one has the balls to be politically incorrect and deal with the REAL cause of the problem, and that is Canada's pathetic immigration system.

Just don't tell that to a leftie. HANDGUN BAN! HANDGUN BAN! Yes, yes, oh yes, etc......

Am I the only Torontonian who almost hopes the Liberals win so that I can move to an independent and relatively crime-free Alberta?

Toronto's gun problems answer can be found in the old Western re-runs. Remember how Wyatt Earp banned all handguns in Dodge City and everyone respected law and order... Todays Yonge street is worse that the Wild West since the Socialist City counsellers brought in the "New Sheriff"; and wasn't one of Wyatt Earp's arch-enemies the "Dalton Gang"?

From CNN:
"I can't say which of the individuals have been targeted and which are accidental," Police Staff Sgt. Stan Belza said.

It sickens me to think a Toronto city official considers the death of a 15-year old girl out shopping with her mother was the result of an accident.

Are Canadians than weak not to call a spade a spade?
This was no accident.
Liberal/Socialist ineptitude, spineless policies and a treasonous appointed judiciary are absolutely to blame for the escalation of violence in Canada period.

My heartfelt condolences to the family that has lost there daughter in this tragic event. We that are not exposed to this violence cannot know how you feel. We can talk all we want, but until we the people take a stand against this lack of respect for one's life we will never be safe on our streets. Not until we vote in a government that is willing to stand up to this low life that roams our streets, will you ever be safe. All the programs & bans in the world will not stop this violence, Action is the only way. If a judge wants to be soft, fire him. Put in judges that will use the law to the utmost. And listen to the people on the front lines that deal with this violence, there is nothing worse than a politician that thinks he know's better(Martin & Miller).

george. I agree in theory. But criminals need to be made pay for their actions. I wonder if Cuba would agree to host another Guantanamo? At least that would put these creeps out of the reach of Canadian lawyers.

stephen ottridge. This might be a good way to address some local crime. But the main problem is imported crime in my opinion. First things first. It's easy to deal with imported crime. Don't allow it into Canada in the first place or, if that is not effective all the time (and it won't be every time), then deport it when it rears it's head.

We need new laws in this area. Canadian law should be for Canadians. Anyone illegally in this country should not fall under our laws or take up the time of our courts or penal system. Find them quickly and deport them. End of problem.

BTW, we're talking about serious crime here. This does not include all the souls that were put out on the street simply because our politicians refused to take care of them. Many street people are as good as you and me. They just have a problem, either mental, physical or addictive. We need to look after these people. They are Canadians too. And we're ignoring them. Shame on Canada.

Red Star tells ya to be brave!

It's the same in the States, United States. Canada is no longer morally superior to America.

Aunty-American died on "Shooting Day" in Toronto.>>>

TO like any big American city
Toronto Star, Canada - 4 hours ago
It was a shock for Bobby to be standing outside Future Shop having a smoke one minute and having to hit the pavement to the sound of gunfire the next. ...
via google search

These arent really shootings. They are actually clever and sardonic protests about the lack of recreational opportunities available to disenfranchised ganstas.

More community clubs and outreach programs are desperately needed to give these unfortunate youths an opportunity to shoot people in the comfy confines of a drop in program.

Toronto is a big city, while tragic, it's not surprising that it has many big city problems. Anybody, particularly someone who lives in rural Canada, who thinks he or she has simple answers to these problems is naive. Gun control will not solve the problem of violence but arming frightened people certainly won't help either. I suspect a lot of the young people carrying guns on the streets of Toronto and Vancouver are doing it because they're afraid now!

Within minutes of these almost daily shootings, our politicians take to the air to plea for witnesses.

What a joke.

You would have to be one dumb Liberal (is that redundant?) to put your family at risk by volunteering to testify against these killers.

I've got an idea.

When you politicians pass some laws with teeth.... I'll come forward to testify.

When you put some judges on the bench who keep people who use and carry guns in jail for more than 10 minutes.... I'll testify.

When I'm comfortable that pointing my finger at a killer won't get me killed within days..... I'll testify.

Until then, save your breath and your feigned anger.

You'd have to be a suicidal moron to point a finger at these killers, because as sure as the Libranos will steal again.... these killers will be released the same day they're arrested.... and they'll come gunning for those who are stupid enough to testify against them.

David Miller, Dalton McGuinty and Paul Martin... you are the reason we don't come forward. Either do something to hold up your end of the bargain, or save your breath.

Tinfoil alert level 1.
This may NOT be your garden variety Jamaican gangbanger drive by.
If I were a muslim fun de mentalness without a bomb this is where I would be and how I would do it.
I'm down the street from the OK Corral, er uh Eaton's Centre in Olivia Chow's neighbourhood where you vote for the pre hyphen Chinese or Italian, party has nothing to do with it.
Toronto is a write off mixture of xenophobic/Marxist fruitcakes, who will actively attempt to pass this off as gangsters if they smell Islam, er uh the religion of peace.

garthwest, if that's the case why are urbanites so naive as to believe that banning legal guns will solve a problem? Blaming guns for crime is like blaming women for prostitution. Only fools blame the tools.

You know, it is ironic that Canada often says it does not wish to be like the United States. Well, the fact is that Toronto and other cities are following the exact same prescription for self-destruction that many US cities did.

By the time the infested rot begins to make public displays like this shooting, it is already past time to deal with it.

You have to be aware of the fact that a lot of people who wish to deal with these issues don't actually want to solve them. These problems create whole huge career opportunities for sociologists, social engineers, victims' advocacy groups, from the municipal all the way up to the federal level.

So you have one group of people sensibly wanting to get tough with jail sentences, citizen handgun ownership, more stringent criminal sentences, etc., and another group working very hard to create upward mobility for increasing numbers of people who see this as opportunities for real prosperity.

This latter group creates a victims' aristocracy that rallies to the defense of every sociopathic murderer whose killing spree becomes public knowledge.

It is also true that while the "gangster" lifestyle initially attracts young people because of things like alienation, disaffection, and all those words, it is important to realize that very soon the entrepenurial spirit of some of them turns the "adventure" of being a "ganster" into something else. They begin to morph into sophisticated organized crime networks using violence in their business enterprises. Society tries to incrementally deal with them, and they start hiring lawyers and buying politicians.

You have to remember that these people do not act in a vacuum. Their narcotics are coming into the country from somewhere. They're in contact with other, more sophisticated criminals who don't have black faces. They are part of a greater synergistic, international criminal enterprise which already does bribe politicians and maintains power blocks over certain parts of the electorate.

So if the public faces of some of this crime are "gangstas" you have to realize that they operate in the territory of much more sophisticated and insidious gangsters from whom they can purchase the means to fuel their underground economy.

And by the way, when you get outraged because they shoot someone someplace in Toronto, please remember that from the gangster's point of view, YOU are being allowed to walk around in the territory that belongs to THEM.

The time has come to build jails for blacks, then give thought to the muslim lockups going to be needed in the future!

"My husband has been talking about getting his handgun, which is safely locked up at his uncle's ranch in Sask"

Ok, what would possibly be the point of this??

If he had been walking down yonge street when this started, would he have started shooting too? Do you really believe that more guns would have helped this situation?

Canada sucks!

Liberal anal bigtime

I agree with Stephen Ottridge, conscription is a good option. It teaches the young respect for authority, and they certainly need the discipline because they do not get it in their homes. I witnessed first hand this week-end the lack of respect that my own grandsons gave their parents. They have been given too much and are too used to having things their way. My cousins in England were conscipted right out of high school and it didn't hurt them one iota.

Also, John Crittenden hit the nail on the head. Better immigration security. Scrutinize those coming in - keep out those with anti-social behaviour. If they do a crime with any type of weapon - knives, guns or machettes - to jail they go for a reasonable duration. Those who were immigrants should be deported just as soon as they finish their sentence. We do not need them back in our society.

garthwest, I think you are wrong. Rural folks can see the problem that the big cities are experiencing. A lot of us have lived through times that were much saner than to-day. We had hunting rifles in our cities as well as country. WE did not have this kind of immigration that there is today. It was not all that easy to get into Canada. There were no handouts to our immigrants. Family had to help family. No one came into Canada and went on social assistance - their was no assistance for even native born. We had relief - that is - if you are out of work it was enough to help until you found work and you looked because it didn't go on forever.
I don't buy that young people are carrying guns on the streets in Toronto because they are afraid. I don't even believe that adults are carrying them, but you can bet those that are getting their jollies from all the turmoil they can muster are carrying them. We don't need any gun laws we need stiffer sentences, deportation and life sentences for murder without early parole. HOW LONG IS LIFE TODAY.

Sorry, but offering Bad Diddy Pee a night at the drop in centre eating muffins and drinking hot chocolate when he could be out makin $5,000.00 selling dope, screwing a teen, and shooting at some other dumb ass won't work.

You committ a crime using a gun..say hello to fifteen years of hard time. If you're in the county illeagly and get caught, you're outta here. Mom and dad caught up in the welfare forever cycle and look to Bad Diddy Pee to keep food on the table..cut the welfare, offer them practial skills training, an enforce a back to work program.

James (in Toronto),

The point is, not that he would be carrying it, but that by making the very statement is a sign of how much this is starting to affect the sense of security (of lack there of) people are feeling. If you have been listening to any of the public that have been speaking out on this today, the sentiment is very much the same: People are starting to be afraid of living in their own city! My husband was born and raised right by Malvern and has experienced gun violence his entire life (including losing a high school friend as a bystander in a gang related shooting). For him to now be feeling insecure is a major statement. Maybe it has to do with the fact that he now has a family of his own, or maybe he is just sick of this, period.

Talk all you want, but until we elect mp's & mpp's that are willing to change the laws of the land this violence will not stop. Soft on crime politicians have about as much place in today's society as the low life that is pulling the trigger. They are unwilling to act on this violence "Iam going to ban all handgun's" statements only appease the vulnerable at election time, These acts of ruthless violence did not begin on boxing day and these softie politicians that we have today have had many years to act, but have they, "NO" then vote them out. Its up to you to stop it by change at the top.

What really pisses me off is I asked my wife to not go there yesterday, I halfheartedly "shortversion" explained my forebodence based on my prediction of a gang shoot up, or a terrorist hit. She was at the other end of the Eaton centre one block away when it started. Bullets could have flown 1/2 a mile conservativly.

The same corner also reports the highest density of terror ,er uh tourists in Canada.
The same corner also invented "swarmings" which are a constant threat to Torontonians and visitors, as are,pursesnatchings, pickpockets, B and E's and car smash and grabs.

This is Canada.
This is Canada, from now on.

If I could predict this , "richfisher the foreteller of truths", why could'nt the police station 2 blocks west? Is it too much to ask if the city could have had someone to make the same prediction, and have a cop placed at each corner with a gun to kill the perps, or at least show intent?
Could they not better use the money that the city used to buy all of it's maintenance staff RIM Blackberries and put a few more armed cops on that corner.
Nope, sorry (answer my own question) , we elected Olivia Chow, Jack Layton and David Miller and other thieving lefty socialist cop haters.

Agreed
Increasing immigration without studying it's contribution to crime is not the answer it's one more step into oblivion.

I hate to rain on everyone's parade but Canada has laws about using weapons in the commission of a crime. Are they used? No, or if they are not dealt away in a plea bargain then the sentences are served concurrently. Serve time for one or thirty crimes doesn't make too much difference if they are all served at once at Club Fed. And please don't get me started on manditory parole after 2/3 of a sentence. Or house cerfew and lecture tour.

May I humbly suggest that Canada hire a few people like the Arizona sherriff that has a tent city for a prison. You gotta love that guy, no A/C, no cable TV, and no steaks on thursdays. Thing is, not too many people come back for a return visit.

Mandatory parole after 2/3 of sentence? News for ya, in the Federal System (penitenciary) it is after 1/2 of the sentence. Your county jail (provincial) sentences are 2/3.

John, excellent! You expressed exactly how a lot of people are feeling. I have one other thought to add, IF we changed the laws to include anyone over the age of 12 that commits murder with a gun be moved to adult court. Yes, we would have to have special facilities for these youth but if they had to face the same charges and their names reveiled, this might make these little pukes think twice before arming themselves.

While I agree wholeheartedly with the actual application of stiffer sentences and more stringent immigration and deportation rules I can't see that happening any time soon - if ever.

Arming the general population has it's merits but there are too many tangential dangers and complications. (I'm sure we all know someone who could qualify to carry a gun but would cause us to cringe if it ever actually happened)

I would like to see a small discreet group of individuals who would target known gang leaders and members and make sure that the human garbage that did the shooting yesterday never made it to court - or out of court - or out of jail - alive. The next time a judge grants a ridiculously lenient sentence they should be made an example of as well.

Maybe I'm a little extra grumpy today because my wife and teenaged daughter were downtown yesterday at the Eaton Centre and left shorlty before the shooting began.

It's definitely time to start shooting back.

Kate:

I haven't read "Lost Budgie's" original post in its entirety, but this part

Toronto: Where an off-duty police officer wounded in last night's gunfire was unarmed because police are prohibited from carrying their weapons off-duty.  Mayor Miller doesn't trust police officers that much.

implies that officers not carrying their weapons off-duty is something typical of Toronto or unusual anywhere else.  I have no great love for what little I know of David Miller, but the off-duty carrying of firearms is pretty widely forbidden.  A buddy in the Edmonton Police Service is not allowed to wear it or take it home with him off-duty, and I believe the rule is the same with the Calgary Police Service.

I'm pretty sure it's the same or similar in most jurisdictions in Canada.  Does anyone know if I'm incorrect?

You are incorrect, it depends on the individual Police Service policy and procedures. The criminal code allows for off duty Police Officers to carry guns as the feeling is your still a cop, on or off duty. It is only the specific services that have policy against that but I wouldn't call it a general rule. That being said, there may be many services that have that policy but I know of many that don't as well.

"I hate to rain on everyone's parade but Canada has laws about using weapons in the commission of a crime."

Have you read these laws? I have, or at least tried to. Some do exist but there are ways around them.

What some of us here are talking about is a "mandatory", "additional" sentence of several years (6 to 20 if I remember correctly), for any crime committed with a firearm. These "mandatory" additional sentences are just that, additional to the judgement rendered, and cannot be plea bargained away.

But this doesn't address the problem of immigrant crime. A lot of these punks on the streets of Vancouver are not in this country legally, or, if they are, they are newly immigrated. If an immigrant flouts our laws then they should simply be sent back to wherever they came from. I don't care if their lives are in danger back there. Our lives are in danger when they're here.

I think we agree of course, and we're just playing with words here. But that may be part of the problem. We need fewer words and more action.

I'd love to see a tent city on an island off the BC coast. But why use one of those beautiful islands for these scum? A tent city in the midst of a mosquito infested swamp somewhere in northern Saskatchewan or Alberta would do just fine. No mosquito lotion allowed.

I spent many a boxing day at this very place. It has been a few years since. The last time, about 8 years ago I realized how much the area had changed.

More guns are not the right answer. Increasing sentences for those who committ crimes with guns, handguns, shotguns etc is it. It works in other places.

Rich Fisher....any evidence? that isnt a challenge it is that I was thinking the same thing as a possibility.

Vin:

Any idea which services in fact allow off-duty officers to carry their weapons?  I'd be particularly interested to know whether there's a big-city/small-town (or big-city/rural RCMP) split of some sort.

Miller is your typical airhead!!!!!!!

re: my post at 2:33 p.m.
"I'm sure once Miller gets back from Spain, he will not waste a second in announcing that we "all need to re-double our efforts" to get the guns off the streets.... "

Mayor Miller was just on Global News, from Spain, saying he had spoken with Chief Blair and that the Chief had vowed to "re-double his efforts" to get the guns and bad guys off the streets.

What a joke Miller is. A predictable joke.

Round up all the identified gang members, and all their handguns, that you can find. Even supply some if needed. Borrow the nearest Candadian forces base to Tornonto, fill it with the aforementioned and let them have at it. Resupply with ammo from the air as needed. Ring the base with police or the military. Whoever comes out the winner gets a special surprise. Repeat as necessary, till you don't have a gang problem anymore.

"John... I have one other thought to add, IF we changed the laws to include anyone over the age of 12 that commits murder with a gun be moved to adult court. Yes, we would have to have special facilities for these youth but if they had to face the same charges and their names reveiled, this might make these little pukes think twice before arming themselves."

I agree. Their names should become part of the visible record for serious crimes for sure.

"Arming the general population has it's merits but there are too many tangential dangers and complications. (I'm sure we all know someone who could qualify to carry a gun but would cause us to cringe if it ever actually happened)"

I remember years ago when it wasn't "scarry" at all for my neighbours to own a gun. Even a handgun. In fact I had neighbours on all sides who owned guns of one kind or another. None of us were scared of each other. I even had a letter of introduction from the RCMP and permission to carry a rifle with me in Canada's parks when I was out photographing big game animals in the fall. I never had to use it but it made me feel a little better having it.

Funny how things have changed. It all started to happen on Trudeau's watch didn't it?

Is that the same cop who appeared on Global News last nite, who said: "We are lucky this didn't get out of control." !?! (A dozen kids shooting at each other on a crowded street is apparently not 'out of control'!) Duh?
There goes the tourista industry in Toronto!
(But look at the bright side- things like this distract attention away from the criminals in Ottawa, Queen's Park, and City Hall- and a bigger budget for the police, too!)

Hello from Lost Budgie in Toronto

Regarding arming off-duty police officers...

Police officers - on or off duty - cannot run away like everyone else. It is called "duty", and like it or not, one of the responsibilities that comes with being a sworn police officer is a legally mandated duty to uphold the law 24/7.

There is no "off-duty" or "on-duty" for a sworn law enforcement officer. See a crime on your day off and fail to act: you will be charged with Neglect of Duty.

That said, why not give a police officer a choice of whether to carry his sidearm or not? Why not?

Don't like it? OK... fine. Call Mayor David Miller or PM Paul Martin next time something happens.

If I'm unarmed, off-duty and shopping with my wife at the Eaton Centre: don't expect me to confront a shooter any more than you would.

If I'm armed, day off or not, I might be able to save a life. Maybe. I'll try anyway.

As for me and my family... we're bailing out of Toronto and heading north. Jamaican gangs rule the streets, and Mayor Miller and his puppet Chief of Police would rather sing "Kumbyeya" than seriously target Jamaican gang members.

Can't mention that 2.7% of the population is responsible for 87% of the shootings. Just not done, old chap...

Garth:
I do know of some, including one that Polices approx. 250,000 people. I'm not going to name the service as I don't want to draw attention. There is at least one that I know of, that a few years ago, was still encouraging officers to carry off duty. I personally think all services should encourage their officers to carry off duty. As far as the major cities, I don't know, you'd have to ask about their policies and procedures towards that, although most major Canadian cities are bastions of socialism so it wouldn't surprise me if many or all had that policy. I was surprised to hear Calgary had that Policy, are you sure? That being said, I can only speak confidently about Ontario, other provinces may have Provincial Law prohibiting it.

Vin:

Hmmmmmm.  I believe the carrying of handguns by off-duty Calgary cops is a breach of their professional conduct rules under the Police Act, but I'm not 100% sure.  There was a Calgary cop last year who was charged after his Service-issued sidearm was stolen from his personal vehicle when he was off-duty.  The implication is that his sidearm should have remained in his locker or elsewhere inside his home station, though the media story (as well as the news release from the CPS) wasn't perfectly clear on that point.  He was actually charged under the CrimCode, but it was also stated that he violated the Police Act (a provincial statute, last amended in 2000).  I don't know how it turned out.

I know off-duty cops in Edmonton aren't allowed to take their weapons out of the station — they're definitely supposed to stay in their lockers or another secure location within the building.  If that's as a result of the provisions of the Police Act, then it's province-wide.

Oh stop whining Toronto...just keep voting Liberal, disarming the victims, hamstringing police with racism charges and keep stacking up the Gangsta's body count.....you must like it because you keep voting for it.

"Totonto the good" he he ..that's getting real ripe!...when the hell was that, back in the 60s? Time you Humber Bay bumpkins got out more ....mist US cities your size don't have the crime issues you do.

Oh stop whining Toronto...just keep voting Liberal, disarming the victims, hamstringing police with racism charges and keep stacking up the Gangsta's body count.....you must like it because you keep voting for it.

"Totonto the good" he he ..that's getting real ripe!...when the hell was that, back in the 60s? Time you Humber Bay bumpkins got out more....most US cities your size don't have the crime you do.

James In Toronto

An Armed Society Is A Polite Society. A few well placed concealed weapon permits does wonders for reducing many crimes on the person. Many police forces require officers to carry off-duty. Armed civilians would be of little help in the Toronto shooting though. Proper responce of a person carrying a sidearm is to stay out of the fracas unless directly in danger.

This battle was lost 70 years ago when we allowed the fellow travelers to take over our education system. They then took over municipal governments. Now they appoint spineless apparatchiks as the Chief of Police. Officers on the street are afraid to pull their weapons and hardly bother to arrest someone because of revolving door justice. Vote for Mayor Miller, vote for Jack Layton then react indignantly when the socialist dream turns into a nightmare. You know what, reach into your wife's purse and grab a pair. (Of Balls) The police won't protect us unless we support them. The government won't won't work for us unless we participate and hold them accountable. The economy will not provide for us unless we work for it. This country cannot be great until we have the moral courage to be great ourselvse.

Basketball Courts will solve this problem! And they go so well with our Kangaroo Courts that bail thugs who run around with guns faster than the paperwork can be completed! And we can all feel good about ourselves.... mmmmm...

John Crittenden:

Yes..to the core.

I agree with increasing sentences with guns and with deportations.

But there is a difficulty here: I remember once a few years back Canada tried to deport a Jamaican who had been in Canada illegally, I believe, since he was 5. Jamaica said he didn't belong to Jamaica; he was Canadian. He grew up here, in our system. Why should they have to take him back?

When we don't crack down on illegal immigrants and they have children here (especially to single parent households), and then this breeds a life of crime, it's hard to then turn around and deport. The problem needs to be fixed long before this: namely, stopping illegal immigration. But who has the guts to do this? Simply deporting criminals after the fact isn't going to clean up the whole problem (though it will stop those particular ones from offending in Canada again), and is going to make Jamaica mad and not willing to help us with the larger problem, which is stemming illegal immigration and stopping the problem before it starts.

I'm not saying we shouldn't deport; I'm just saying it's not the panacea either. Isn't there some way to help Jamaica improve so there isn't the need to leave? I know I'm being hopelessly utopian, but the problem is bigger than just Toronto. And Jamaica itself does not have the problem with gun violence that Jamaican immigrant communities do in Toronto. It's no wonder Jamaica doesn't want them back.

The only way to stop illegal immigration and all the problems that go with it, in my opinion, is to make the countries they come from more palatable so they don't want to leave. That's a huge job and I have no clue how to do it, but until we address it all Western countries and all major urban centres are going to have these problems, even if we figure out how to handle them better.

How come they don't use the REAL hammer that is in the law??

You know, John Vernon mentioned it in that ahh...err road-trip movie, ahh..Animal House or something.

I believed the law was called..." DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION".

The Lieberals are keeping that for severe emergencies I guess.

Too strong medecine for Tranna..ya think???

Oh Sheila, so you want to put up basketball courts in Jamaca too? Sorry, that just won't cut it. Criminals have to realize that crime does NOT pay. Playing the pity card only feeds their stereotype of poor misguided souls. Feeling sorry and babying these thugs is why there is a problem here. Maybe a little Thailand justice for drug pushers is what is needed.

Pathetic socialist exploitation of tragedy for political gain and justification of it's criminal ideology...

Same ol' same ol'. One dead, one dying, one more shot towards the Americans. More to follow.

Sirprize sirprize. CNN: Canada blames U.S. for gun violence
..quoting David Miller and Paul Martin, saying the United States is exporting its violence.
http://tinyurl.com/e2dmg

I think John Crittenden has outlined what needs to be done and only Stephen Harper has the gonads to implement such measures. The Conservatives are the only party in this country's history willing to make the tough, politically unpopular decisions that have improved the lot for everybody. As a side thought, do the recent events in the 416 really surprise anyone. Afterall, it is the epicenter of the Liberano social experiment.

John Crittendon and others,
Canada has a perfect place for those who choose violence over the rule of law. take a look at the area north of Great Bear Lake to the Artic Coast, west from the Coppermine River tothe range of hills east of Nrman Wells, that area is called "the Barrens". I'd send the Ganstas et al up there for 5 to 10 years, to live in tents, you wouldn't need wire and you wouldn't need many guards as the mosquitoes would get them in the summer, they'd fall through the ice in the spring and fall, and freeze to death in the winter if they wanted to do walk abouts. I know, I know, Queen Beverly and her court would rule that cruel and unusual punishment. I think we should try it. Just a suggestion from a Rednecked Separatist.

Soulless thugs with no morality running fast and free on drug money. Brain-dead socialists calling it an "unfortunate tragedy". The tragedy will be the lack of justice as the perps walk after some easy time.

How to fix? 1) "Broken Windows" policing based on the Giuliani model.

2) Tough TRULY MANDATORY sentences for violent offenders - sentences impossible for judges to circumvent.

3) Full adult court and adult penalties for all violent offences causing bodily harm, no matter the age of the offender.

4) Politicians using their legislative power and bully pulpits to promote traditional two-parent families, Judeo-Christian morality, positive role models, respect for authority, and to reject any notion of "root causes" of violence, pleas for "understanding", and special treatment for particular communities.

Above all, it's a culture war, people. And the nihilists are winning.

Looks like the chickens have come home to roost. The people that keep electing the lefties are now suffering the most due to the lefties policies.

Actually, it looks good on TO, although I do have sympathy for the family who lost thier daughter.

Stuck on Stupid?
Vote Liberal

Horny toad

Don't smear the whole city, Toad - there are hundreds of thousands of "us" in T.O. - there's just more of "them".

"Above all, it's a culture war, people. And the nihilists are winning."

Well stated, NCF! I'm not much for political philosophy but in this case Nietzsche was eerily prescient:

"The greatest recent event -- that 'God is dead', that the belief in the Christian god has become unbelievable -- is already beginning to cast its first shadows over Europe...But in the main one may say: The event itself is far too great, too distant, too remote from the multitude's capacity for comprehension even for the tidings of it to be thought of as having arrived as yet...This long plenitude and sequence of breakdown, destruction, ruin, and cataclysm that is now impending -- who could guess enough of it today to be compelled to play the teacher and advance proclaimer of this monstrous logic of terror, the prophet of a gloom and an eclipse of the sun whose like has probably never yet occurred on earth?"
(Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science, 1882)

"Liberalism" is a hoax, a front. It is a Trojan Horse for nihilism.

Sadly, this kinda makes ya miss Mel Lastman. But hey, PM is on it, pointing to "exclusion" as the tragic root cause. Now I can just hear the defenders of "Canadian Values" spinning this in the direction of "Exclusion"(obvious code word for Conservative). Any attempt by the Conservatives (insert exclusionists) to address this will be greeted by shouts of Racist, Religous Right, Bushist, Gun Nuts .... or some other "scary" moniker they can dredge up to divert attention from their miserable failures. The Conservatives may want to utilize video of the father of one of the previous victims of this gang war calling PM a Jackass for suggesting the hand gun ban. But then that would be crass political oportunism and "negative" advertising, something the morally superior Liberals never engage in. On second thought they might raid the Liberal braintrust (ala Belinda Stronach) and hire up some of the more principled stratagists. I hear Mike Klander is available and Scott Reid would be a shoe-in. Yea, that's what they need, some good old fashioned socially progressive spinmeisters to simplify and clarify this complex issue for the great unwashed (read stupid if you wish) masses. A pair of hired guns to realign the Conservative's moral compass. Viva "Canadian Values"!!!

We have to make it harder to get handguns from the states,assuming that's where they come from. It doesn't help the coloured people's cause. I hope something gets done.I saw the Youth Commitee talking on TV from Toronto they sound like a smart bunch of kids. This is what we get from the states all the bad influences. Drive by shootings, gangs.The Government of Saskatchewan recently passed anti-gang legislation.Gangs cannot wear gang colors or insignias.It's a start. Maybe stiffer jail sentences for gun offences.

Texas Canuck:

No, of course I don't want basketball courts in Jamaica. Don't be absurd.

What I want is to figure out a way to improve their economies so people won't be fleeing. Basketball courts have nothing to do with it. How about cleaning up the World Bank? The WTO? Encouraging Second and Third World governments to cut down on corruption, maybe with sanctions if they don't?

We just have to realize that to solve this problem we need Jamaica on our side, and they're not going to be if we keep deporting people who have lived in Canada 85% of their lives. It's the same with the Mexican problem in the United States. If Mexico could prosper, there wouldn't be the same flow of illegals into the States. Canada isn't a closed system, and we need to figure out how to encourage honest, capitalist governments elsewhere so that we're not such a magnet.

Looks like the "doltons" didn't respect the Sheriff's gun ban in Dodge any more than they obey the laws against Back shootin', killin' widows and chuilluns, sellin contraband, horse stealin' and claim jumpin'.

And I agree, the "dodge City allegorical metaphore really IS overly simple....but it appeals to simpletons and it appears TO is full of them.

Unfortunately simpletons are too simple to care about their own self defense so they relegate their physical security to politicians and judicial bureaucrats who are also too simple to be trusted with such a responsibility.

What I see happening in TO is very Dawinian....the strong are preying on the weak ( disarmed) and will continue to do so in ever escillating numbers until the population and politicians abandon their simple mindset and see what has worked to control crime in every jurisdiction it has been employed....empowered civilian response....involvement of the citizenry in law enforcement in their community....and a return to civilian ( peer judgement) in the justice system.

Untill this changes TO will remain a haven for violent criminals.

The socialists are already making thier arguements to justify spending lots of cash on this problem. Suggestions of social programs and job creation for excluded youth have been circulating all over the MSM. Looks like we have another "cause" for the Liberals to exploit. This however, could set a dangerous precedent in our society. Any group that feels marginilized may now resort to violence to get the governments attention. I suggest that all the Natives and Maritimers in this country should start stockpiling weapons.

Oh,I also forgot to mention farmers as a marginilized group that should consider stockpiling weapons. Maybe if the government offered social programs and job creation for rural farmers we could prevent people like James Rozco from resorting to crime. Unlikely, he was a wingnut. Stop letting wingnuts in our country.

As a regular viewer of Question Period on CPAC, I have repeatedly seen Justice Minister Irwin Cotler, when asked by CPC justice critic Vic Toews about minimum sentencing for various crimes, state that the minimums are there, or that specific ones are being discussed in justice commmittees. Once, in the House, he stated that the courts must respect these minimums. Also, this was stated by him on Mike Duffy Live, I believe.

What of Toronto police statements in the past indicating that certain criminals have been deported 5 and 6 times only to return to continue their anti-social ways.

I wouldn't mind some tax dollars going to hiring Rudy Giuliani on a good contract to clean up this mess in Toronto (with other Canadian cities in the wings).

Recently, in a Liberal Rally, Paul Martin recited a litany of "Liberals believe in/ Stephen Harper believes in..". One of these, which I paraphrase, was "Liberals believe in gun control, Stephen Harper does not believe in the registry". What registry? A proposed small arms registry?

Wanting to be proactive, could anyone tell me where to find the serial numbers on my steak knives?

Sorry about using the term "Wingnut" in the wrong context. I thought a wingnut was someone who has no trust in authority and resorts to violence to achieve thier goals. However my girlfriend has informed me that a wing nut is someone who conforms to exteme right wing views. They do tend to stockpile rations and weapons for the impending economic collapse and breakdown in society. Sorry if I offended anyone with my previous post, as I am sure thier are a few wingnuts who contribute to this blog. Please allow me to retract my previous statement. I now think we should open our doors to wingnuts.

Jamaica! Now that you mention it: it's about the same size as Toronto - both geographically and in population.

And they're up to about 1500 murders this year, not an unusual number.

If Canada really wants to be multicultural in the true sense of the word(and not just pander to ethnics by funding festivals and eating at restaurants)then we have to accept that this is part of their culture too, obviously. And don't dare pass judgement on another culture! Just accept it...

"We have to make it harder to get handguns from the states, assuming that's where they come from. It doesn't help the coloured people's cause. I hope something gets done.I saw the Youth Commitee talking on TV from Toronto they sound like a smart bunch of kids. This is what we get from the states all the bad influences. Drive by shootings, gangs."

Oh dear me Archie, those vile Americans are at it agin, eh? Yeh, that's it, let's blame those durn Rednecks for every criminal act in Kanadar, after all, we know Kanajuns are so much kinder and gentler, eh?

None of our darling criminal underclass would dream of forming gangs, selling drugs or shooting up the hood without that evil Amurican influence, right?

Why until they invented TV we naive, bunny-loving Kanucks didn't even know they made handguns that could actually kill people - I mean we had heard rumors and all, but until Karl Rove used his evil TV mind-rays to overpower us, we just had no idea! Why, the Jamaican yutes used to help little old ladies cross the street till the Yanks destroyed our goodness and kindness toward mankind. If only Paullyanna was allowed to set up his force-field of Kanajun/Liebral values at the border, we could stop those evil Amurican influences and guns at our kinder, gentler Kanajan borders today!

richfisher said:
This is Canada.
This is Canada, from now on.

Sadly, richfisher is almost certainly correct.

As Toronto seems to be going down the same ineffective path that other North American cities initially have gone down, it is unlikely that you will ever solve your problem. (We have managed to reverse some of these problems -- for example, when criminals started victimizing large numbers of people in Florida, the state enacted right-to-carry laws, and violence toward citizens largely dried up... criminals prefer unarmed victims.)

If there's any good news about this it is that you no longer have to concern yourself with wishing for a number of impossible things to happen. The World Bank is not going to solve any problems. The United States is not going to get rid of the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution. Testosterone-pumped adolescents are not going to stop finding thrills and adventure in the glamorous life of gang-banging.

What you have now is a "gang management problem." Your need is not how to get rid of it, but how to go about managing it so that law-abiding citizens in Toronto can at least have parity.

Earlier on this thread a police officer stated that the gangs were ruling the streets.

You have to think about the problem from the inside out. The first and primary question is "What am I going to do if some gang-banger is 60 seconds away from hurting me or my family?" All your solutions grow from this one basic question. Maybe there was a time when citizens of Toronto could think about benevolent social and legal interaction doing a wonderful job of insuring security.

Those measures are no longer sufficient for the job. Now you have to start thinking from the proposition of "How do I save my life and my family's life?"

Sheila,
I'm sorry but my original premise still holds. There is crime everywhere and it migrates to where they can be most effective. Playing NDPer and putting a jerked chicken in every Jamaican pot is not going to stop crime. you have to make it so crime doesn't pay.

If a young person is offered $1000 to carry a package into Canada and the chances of getting caught are slim to nil then why not try? If, on the other hand, you risk losing your head then it is not worth it.

Trust me, these gangstas are not going to be happy working at Walmart or Mickey Ds, even if you gave them the jobs.

OK, so lets boil it down to the realities.

1. The world, including Canada, is full of guns. Thinking you can wish upon a star or click your heals together and make them all go away is foolish.

2. A gun in the hands of someone with criminal intent is a symbol of power. This turns anyone unarmed, and therefore weaker, into a victim.

3. As long as we provide bullies and criminals with a guaranteed source of victims, crime will not only persist, but likely increase.

4. The only proven way to destroy the 2-class system of bully and victim, is to level the playing field. This is what our entire system is based on, from the Magna Carta onwards.

Lets start by:

1. Increase the numbers of police officers, and get them in the neighborhoods, a la Guiliani.

2. Encourage and support off-duty police to carry their guns.

3. If this does not show an immediate reduction in criminal violence, encourage selected and trained Armed Forces personnel to carry concealed weapons, off duty. Why? because they have the training, the motivation, the regimented command structure to be responsible, and have sworn to defend this country from all threats, foreign and domestic. Potentially many thousands more "police" at no cost.

4. Enact "Concealed Carry" laws like many other North American counties/states. Why? Because it is the only measure that has proven to work.

IMHO, these measures will eventually be enacted in the coming years, whether liberals like it or not. The only question is how many more innocents will have to die needlessly before they are.

COP'S KILL MORE PEOPLE THAN GANG'S !!!!

TAKE A LOOK AT NEW ORLEANS WHERE TEN "COP'S" HAD TO SHOOT A LARGE BLACK MAN
WITH A PEN KNIFE !!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

THANK YOUR LUCKY STARS THAT THEY GOT THIS
DENGEROUS MAN. HA HA HA HA

Heres' an appropriate comment on the situation from Leo Knight's blog (www.primetimecrime.com):

"Tuesday, December 27, 2005
A Christmas filled with horror "

"The news started breaking around the supper hour on Boxing Day. By this morning the full horror of what happened in a busy shopping area in downtown Toronto was clear. Two groups of rival thugs started tossing shots at each other with the streets full of people taking advantage of the best shopping day of the year.

When the smoke cleared, seven people had been shot and one was dead, a 15 year old girl out shopping with her family. An innocent victim of the escalating insanity dead with her whole life in front of her. It is absolutely outrageous.

These little pissants don't give a damn about the rules of a civilized society and it is way beyond time we recognized that in this country and started doing something to take back our streets.

We should all be sick and tired of the pablum we are being spoon-fed telling us that our sad excuse of a justice system is working. We are constantly being told that these scumbags deserve more chances and that jail doesn't work because they will be eventually let out.

I call Bullshit!

When a 15 year old girl can't go shopping with her family without getting shot, something is horribly wrong. And that something is the concept that the rights of the accused supersedes the rights of society to be protected. The concept of lawyers and the judiciary worshipping before the altar of the Charter in this country must stop.

Vancouver has the highest property crime rate on the continent. Surrey and Abbotsford, both suburbs of Vancouver, are number one and three respectively for the highest rates of car theft in North America. Toronto is setting historical records for the numbers of shootings and the number of handgun related deaths this year is twice the previous record. Edmonton is having a banner year in homicides and gang violence in Calgary is at an all time high.

The proliferation of organized crime is out of control and the government has done precious little to stem the rising tide.

Enough is enough.

We are in the middle of a federal election and the main issue in this country should be crime and the protection of society not whether or not Stephen Harper would call a free vote on gay marriage. Who cares if two men want to call themselves married? As long as the churches in this country can follow their respective doctrines and not be forced to participate, who really cares? This is not a campaign issue, it's a red herring put out there by a government bereft of ideas or morals.

We all have an opportunity in front of us to send a message that the status quo is not acceptable. And I'm not talking about the theft of millions of dollars by the Liberals.

No, I'm talking about demanding our politicians understand their primary duty is to protect the population as a whole and not just special interest groups, friends and party workers. They should then tell us exactly how they are going to do that. And then, and only then, consider whether they deserve your vote.

Our country is at a crossroads. This is not a left or right issue, this is a right and wrong issue. It is wrong to let the criminals do as they please, to snub their noses at society and then get no barriers placed in front of them to halt their criminal behaviour.

The murder yesterday of an innocent teenaged girl in Toronto is so outrageous it should wake up even the most somambulent of voters. I want to hear what everyone running for public office is going to do to fix a horribly broken system.

Enough is enough."

"Leo Knight
leo@primetimecrime.com"

...And if Canadians STILL cannot get it throught their heads to STOP voting Liberal, Toronto and other major centres can look forward to more of the same.

Hey Richie,
All CAPS is a sign of rudeness. And learn how to spell, eh dude.

In the "No Wonder Americans Think Canucks are Crazy Department:" I just finished watching an interview on Fox's O'Reilly Factor about Toronto mayor blaming the bad old USA for their gang problems. First of all, I don't know how they did it but they found a "Progressive" nutbar in Calgary for the Council of Canadians. This Anil Naidoo fellow tsk, tsk'd the interviewer saying that the US has far more crime and they don't have gun control and this is why it is spreading to Toronto because they see it on TV(must be at one of the many drop in centres). He also slagged Condi Rice for not doing anything since her visit in October to close the border to those terrible guns. He forgets to mention that nobody is ever stopped leaving a country, just entering it. Think about it. Last time you went south, did you stop at the Canadian Customs and tell them you were leaving? So the bad old US guns are crossing the border and CANADIAN (unarmed) Customs can't stop them. Mmmm.

As a Canuck, living in Texas, I resent moonie dipwads that try to show the world that the Canadian and American "cultures" are completely different and shift the blame. By the way, I did not hear once from this Anil character the words gang or Jamaica, or drugs.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Re-elect Mayor Miller & there will be sweetness & light, and safe streets & no drugs or gang wars or ethnic strife!!! Toronto has had great mayors (except for that farsighted Crombie guy who actually did something). Mayor Miller is the perfect act to follow Loser Lastman: a Dork after a Dummy.

Guess this isn't really the best time to discuss Toronto's plans for safe injections and the possibility of legalized prostitution, eh?

sjd(at)cogeco(d0t)ca

Toronto, you deserve what you elect, gun laws and all. A neighbour of mine, E-Ebanks now Bush,[some know where I reside] said thank god you accept these street niggers, we hate them. All the false excuses in the world will never return a beautiful young girl. May you all suffer the same fate you liberal pieces of shit.

Hi, Dec. 30/2005

My husband and I have been following the story
on our local news about Jane Crube that was
shot dead in Toronto, Ontario, Canada on Boxing
Day.

Firstly, this should have never happened if there
were gun restrictions in Ontario. A lot of the offenders
are young offenders. They know the outcome of their case before it goes to court....
"A slap on the wrist." With that in mind, they
already are ahead of our down right lousy Justice
System.

There is a large back log of cases waiting to be
heard why? Not enough court rooms, or judges.
Well Mr. Miller, use judges chambers or offices,
and if you have to, use City Hall, to move these
cases faster. Get the word out that these criminals are going to get the book thrown at them...no more pussing footing around.

I am sure the taxpayers would love to pay a few
cents more for a central building, to hear these
cases and get rid of the backlog. If a criminal
has to wait 2-3 years to get to court, and he is
15 - 16 years old...then the judge takes the
waiting time off his sentence: which is 80 hrs of
service in the community.....that is a joke.
for murdering a human being.

If you commit an adult crime, you go through the
adult courts and if prosecuted, do the adult time.At l5-18 years old these people know right
from wrong.

Guns are the problem. Ban them immediately.

Get rid of the Young Offenders Act immediately.
These people are using our police officers,
social workers, and many others as pawns.
These young offenders think it is cool to have
all this on t.v. Well let them spend 25 years in
jail and see how life treats them in the system,
at l5-l8 years old. It will give them lots of time to cool off.

I am confident with the above considered and put
into practice you will see a drastic drop in violence in Toronto, and Ottawa.

We live south of Ottawa, in the last 3 weeks
there have been several shootings, resulted in
2 deaths, and several stabbings.Previous shootings and stabbings since Jan. 2005 has increased in Ottawa also.

Please, Mr. Miller, get together with the Toronto
Police, and the Ottawa Police and work on the
same Page. What is enforced for Toronto, can be
duly used in Ottawa. This could all be done on
Video Conferencing.

As a mother, wife, grandmother, aunt, sister-in-
law, friend, and neighbour...if I was this Jane's
mother or grandmother, I would initiate a crusade
to rid guns immediately. They are not a toy.
They are dangerous, which has already been proven. Both of us feel very strong about this
issue. For l8 months, Toronto, and Ottawa have
been TAP DANCING around the gun issue. Now is the
time to address this sensitive area, in our province and DO SOMETHING ABOUT THESE CRIMINALS
WHO THINK IT IS COOL...put your boxing gloves
on, and interupt the TAP DANCING, and make a
concrete decision to put a stop to GUNS NOW AND
FOREVER.....THEN THERE WILL BE PEACE !!!!!

The young people in Toronto grieving the loss
of Jane, will back you up l00% if you make this
decision.

How would you feel if it were your daughter Mr
Miller?

Thank you, we both trust you will read ALL these
comments and make a decision re GUNS in a very
quick manner, before it happens again.

Joan, give your head a shake. Guns AREN'T the immediate problem.

Handguns practically ARE banned in Canada. Martin's proposed handgun ban just underscores the stupidity of it, and the duplicity of the Canadian public: you've had to register handguns since 1934 and jump through hoops to own them for the last 30 years. What you're advocating is the position that if the current laws aren't enough to stop the criminals, let's pass more laws for them to ignore. Pointless.

England banned handguns after the Dunblane shootings, and the only result was to drive crime rates (including gun crimes) UPWARDS. When you ban guns and effectively disarm the populace, the natural benefits are the criminals. Q.E.D.

None of these guns killed any Torontonian by themselves. The majority of the 50+ handgun deaths this year were caused by young Jamaican gang members, but no Toronto/Ontario/Canadian politician has the stones to say this out loud, as that'd be "racist".

Do you think if the liberal storm troopers rounded up all handguns owned by responsible, legit owners that we'd see the end of street shootings in Toronto? Or do you still believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy, too?

You want to fix "root" causes? Try these:

1. Deport illegal immigrants ASAP. This includes these illegals who've "misplaced" their ID on incoming aircraft: put 'em on the next plane back where they came from. And don't extend full rights as a Canadian citizen to anybody who lands on the shores in a rowboat claiming "refugee" status, either; the Singh decision was pure, unadulterated bullshit.

2. Mandatory minimum sentencing for handgun crimes (some US states have 10/15/20 year minimums for convictions of crimes using a gun/discharging the gun/hitting somebody but not killing them). There HAS to be a discernible penalty.

3. Revoke the Youth Criminal Justice Act IMMEDIATELY. It's worse than the Young Offenders Act. Try "youths" as adults as young as 14, and sentence them accordingly: the 25+ years to be spent initially in a secure, no-nonsense juvenile center, to be commuted to federal prison when the convicted turns 18. Not this "hug a thug" 18 months' easy juvi time & out scott-free.

4. I'd lobby for elected judges with accountability to the public, to increase sentences and keep these street punks away from the innocent bystanders they may kill. Naturally, this is too American-like and will have all the elites shrieking in horror; we've had much better success with our handpicked liberal sugar-daddies on the bench. Fine, then: publish the names of all judges who give out these ridiculous sentences and grant bail to violent offenders. And let's try to mandate some accountability so they may be sacked if they aren't serving the public (in this case, helping to keep the public safe).

5. Start encouraging today's youth to aspire to behave with conscience and morals. It's too late with the mid-teens; they're on the path too solidly by now. But focus on the pre-teens: is it that farcical to encourage kids to use manners, abstain from sex and drugs, and to treat others with respect? I know this flies in the face of our current liberal state religion of national secularism, what with advocating same-sex marriage, legalized marijuana, safe injection sites and legalized prostitution, but ask yourself if this type of moral compass will help or hinder things in the future.

The moral issue is a big problem in Toronto's crime-ridden black community, and this is from black community leaders, not me. Too many teenage mothers, families with no fathers, no education and no hope are the fertile ground in which the crime problem continues to grow. As one black minister noted (paraphrased), young ladies must start behaving like young ladies and not sleep around, and young men must take their duties as a father seriously.

So much of the crime problem is rooted in family upbringing and values, and these are hard to shape and impart if there IS NO FAMILY.

If you wish to label me a racist for that, label away, mates.

and finally:

6. PEOPLE IN TORONTO MUST SHOW OUTRAGE AT THIS SITUATION. You have a worthless mayor who, throughout this recent tragedy, still swanned around in Spain as though there were no problems. True, he's promised to "redouble his efforts" to fight the problem, but mathematically speaking, two times zero is still zero. Pity he couldn't "redouble" his efforts to cut short his vacation and haul ass back to T.O. to deal with the problem immediately. But now that he's back, I see Mayor Photo-Op is back on his gun ban hobby horse. Typical.

We must demand more from our local politicians: insist that the police raid these gangs and give them the means to bring these slugs to justice. Hold Miller et al accountable at the polls for a campaign that insisted there was NO Toronto crime problem, and then appointing the biggest cop-hater to the Police Services Board, and forcing the best Police Chief the city had into retirement.

Pressure the provincial liberals to demand the provincial court judges hand out strict sentences to violent offenders, and not give them easy bail. And no credit for time served for these slugs, either.

Pressure the feds to clean up the immigration system, the Criminal Code, and the YCJA for starters.

Sitting back, wringing hands and demanding "gun bans" and more basketball courts like David Miller & co is skirting the issue, and postponing efforts at attempting a real solution.

MEA CULPA:

re: "Toronto's crime-ridden black community"

I worded that badly, & couldn't edit once I'd posted. There is indeed a high crime rate in the Toronto Jane/Finch area, which is a predominently black community, and the quote I'd paraphrased was from a black minister in this area. Also, the majority of Toronto shootings have involved young black males.

I certainly did NOT mean to infer that the entire black community of Toronto has a crime problem, and unfortunately, that's how it reads.

My apologies to anybody who misreads & takes offense.

/SJD

Paul Martin blames "exclusion" for the Boxing Day tragedy. As a person who lived a childhood of "exclusion" I declare his comment as BULLSHIT.
These gangsta types have a choice like everyone else to either live the straight and narrow or participate in a life of crime. Exclusion my ass! These monsters make more money peddling their narcotics and fencing their stolen goods than any job at Walmart will pay them. They are out for the money and the power plain and simple.
The only way to take back the streets is to vote in a government that will step up and overhaul our complete justice system or lack of.
Here in Calgary, we have the "asian gangsta" element riddling our streets with their crime and murderous tendancies. Here's an example of our pathetic justice system: A stolen SUV was pulled over, three young Asian gangbangers were apprehended, in possession of a handgun, which had the serial numbers filed off. They were released in less than 48 hours on bail and the judge (no doubt a Liberal, claimed that the police had no proof that they intended to use the firearm to commit a crime. Okkkkkk, the serial numbers were filed off, wouldn't that alone be proof that they were contemplating a crime of some sort or had already pulled something off? Wouldn't it had at least put some doubt in the judges head of their intentions? Not to mention they were apprehended in a stolen SUV.
This country has gone to hell in a handbasket at an accellerated speed.
Paul Martins "ban" on handguns only goes to show how out of touch he is. These punks do what they do because they can! None of them are afraid of being arrested, because they know the punishment they will receive will be nothing more than a slap upside the head and a "now be a good lil boy/girl".
I'm a mom, I have three boys, and I can tell you that under no certain terms would I hesitate to turn in one of my kids if I ever suspected them of being gangbangers. I think the parents of these punks need to take some accountability as well.
As far as deportation goes, I'm all for it, after they serve their sentences for the crimes they commit. The Liberal government has knowingly allowed a criminal element into our society, terrorist etc. And then they blame US for exclusion. Paul Martin should pull his head out of his ass and stop making excuses for these punks.
I'm also really sick and tired of the "Americans" being blamed for the gang problem in our country. Its getting old folks, this status quo of blaming our neighbor to the South for all the wrongdoings in the world. People have choices and if they make the wrong choice they should be held responsible and accountable.
Should my fellow Canadians re-elect another Liberal government than dare I say "You asked for it...thou shalt not snivel!"
Canadians have become so complacent its sickening. I equate it to the "battered wife syndrome", the Canadian electorate is so used to the lies, the battery, the abuse of our rights and our money, the excuses..ohhh the excuses..the oppression and the insults (ie:beer and popcorn and Alberta can blow me), the deniability, its what we know, we accept it, we fear the unknown.
Well hopefully like a wife fed up with the beatings and the abuse, people will take a stand on Jan 23 and seize the opportunity to kick the Fiberals to the curb. And should that not happen then lets atleast hope that Canadians will take Paul Martin to task on real justice reform. Somehow tho, I think if the Liberals are re-elected, the majority of we Canadians will once again bury our head in the sand.
Stand up for Canada, vote PC!

The answer is simple: VOTE CONSERVATIVE. Stephen Harper promised me on that their TV commercial that he'd personally deport all them niggers.