There's a school of thought that, even when the U.S. does bad things in the world, we should look the other way and keep our eyes cast demurely downward.

I find it utterly amazing. Aside from the fact that journalists are complete morons and mental lightweights, it's quite amusing to see how often they project their own bias into their crap. It's as apparent as the falalfel stain on their sleeve.

What McJournalist was really saying was:

"There's a school of thought that, even when the U.S. does [GOOD] things in the world, we should look the other way and keep our eyes cast demurely downward."

I used to shake my head in frustration as middle east dictators used the "Great Satan", as an effective diversion from their own tyrannical and ineffective rule.

It's sad that the leader of the U.S.'s "best friend and ally" is employing such tactics.

The post Kyoto action is to follow the U.S. model is it not?

Well, we can spin cycles responding to deceptive writers, or we can take the offense.

After writing my Message to Captain Canada post, I suddenly realized that Paulie had just handed the Conservatives another "Scott Reid" golden moment.

http://www.thiscanada.com

Played up massively, the unfit-ness could backfire right onto Captain Canada and derail his negative campaign for a bit.

Give it a read and a try, bloggers!

And, contrary to what Linda the Hippo says, the US government has authorized no plans to station any weapons in space. The power of truth eludes her.

Mark
Ottawa

From Garth Turner's comment section. Sheila Copps must be getting mellow with age...

http://www.garth.ca/weblog/2005/12/17/day-19/#comments

Hope the link works.

Does anybody notice that McQuaig seems to linger a fair bit on her originally-satirical description of Canada as the demure "girl friend?"

We can breathlessly await her next column on the softwood dispute with a lead about "Bush's Woody," or something equally Freudian.

"The problem is preventing Ottawa from demurring to our over-muscled boyfriend whenever the cameras aren't rolling."

Evne better than "Stand by Your Man," we pan to Dithers singing "Behind Closed Doors" and fade not a moment too soon...

In closing, does anybody notice that Central Canada Liberals, also living next door to at least one other large and imperfect country, never feel the same self-fulfilling "need" to act as its conscience?

Nyet.

Canada is the only energy exporting nation to sign on to decreasing emissions. Just another loop of redtape and another tax to add to the 33billion$ of administration that we suffer every year at the hand s of the bureaucrats from sea to suffering sea.

FREE THE WEST!

Linda McQuag never passed a Liberal sphincter she wouldn't kiss nor pass up any effluent from one she wouldn't eat then regurgitate from a media soap box......thus is the anal existance of the least credible partisan hack in the MSM.

I would appreciate it if you folks would quit knocking Linda McQuaig (honestly, Mark ..... hippo?). My brother knows her well and maintains she is light years ahead of all Canadians in her thinking and political discourse. He maintains she is witty, erudite and extremely knowledgable. My brother should know - - he's a university professor, has never soiled his hands in any form of employment and is wise beyond his years. Sometimes I think he posts on SDA as "Don" or "Cameron" or Robert McClueless because he is politically warped to the left (ie: naive)and has deep reservations toward the Jews and Israel. Of course, my brother is a lunatic lefty academic but Mother cautioned me to be charitable and not tell anyone but it's necessary that I break my vow to her to protect Linda the hippo McQuaig (as someone called her). Bear with me, please ..... I obviously have family problems.

BCer: If you're really going to give McJournalist the benefit of the doubt, then I suggest you forget blogs and go back to wholesale digestion of Newspapers and CBC without any questioning whatsoever. Isn't that just what your "wise" professor brother would say?

propagandist

adj : of or relating to or characterized by propaganda [syn: propagandistic] n : a person who disseminates messages calculated to assist some cause or some government

Dear Linda,

Such shallowness of analysis and intellectual dishonesty! What are we to believe regarding 'climate change'? Results or rhetoric? Paul Martin is clearly pandering to one of our worst national traits, envy and unwarranted 'moral superiority'.

So we signed Kyoto. So what?

Our emissions go up. The United States (a non-signatory, who understands it's really about income distribution and the crippling of free market systems) finds ways of signifcantly lowering emissions. The facts fly in the face of your ideology, but that's life.

Money means choices and profitable companies can afford (and usually do) make choices that benefit everyone - shareholders, workers and fellow citizens. The 'statism' of which you are so fond, results in the gray, soul-less and poisoned landscape of the former USSR. I'm really so sorry that the free markets foul the nest of your comfy 'champagne socialist' dream.

Cheers
Randy
PS: How did you like the Iraqi election and the potential for real democracy? It's all George's fault.

Yes and Martin has been firm on Kyoto

from Sheila Copps column today on the 2003 Liberal leadersip debates.

During that same Liberal debate, he also refused to support gay marriage and remained ambiguous about whether he would even sign the Kyoto accord.

Now, he obviously has changed his mind. In last week's debates, he emerged as pro-Kyoto, anti-Iraq-war and a booster of the Charter equality provisions which guarantee non-discrimination in civil marriage. A cynic might wonder what happened between Vancouver 2003 and Vancouver 2005.

If Martin's views have evolved, then we should give him credit for approaching issues with an open mind. (He did, of course, support gay marriage in a House of Commons vote.)

As well, in a party leadership debate, the target audience is different from that of an election debate.

But if Paul Martin is to be forgiven for changing his mind on three major issues in the space of less than three years, why do Liberals think can they score political points by dredging up Conservative Leader Stephen Harper's statements of eight years ago?

And why do certain media outlets think it is relevant to cover Harper's eight-year-old flip-flops but blank out when it comes to Martin's about-face on Kyoto, Iraq and gay marriage? Double standard, anyone?

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Copps_Sheila/2005/12/18/1358673-sun.html

Global warming, Kyoto and CO2 is always something I promise myself I should study more, but it bores me like notwithstanding clause discussions and counting Liberal dinner receipts.

So much back and forth...but I know with CO2 anything more than zero is probably not good and that 13% of the US whatever is probably a hell of lot more than our 24% of whatever.

What about the US counting intensity rather than emissions? This leads to screwed stats. We also know the figures are based on a US economy that has significantly moved from heavy industry to light manufacturing, retail and real estate...not heavy emmitters. They have out sourced most of their heavy industry and oil production as well....we get some.

It is also reported that the oil sands emit 3x the CO2 of conventional production.

Mackenzie Redux... you've never passed a Republican or CPC sphincter you wouldn't kiss.

McQuaig is a learned practitioner of "The Big Lie", the first lesson taught in "agit/prop 101" by Dr.Goebbels & UNcle Adolf. Lesson # 2 is "scapegoating" taught in "agit/prop 102" by Red Trotsky, Mao, & SSM Martin/Layton & their pupils.

The lesson for today is : ********

Hitler details the fraud technique which exploits the essentially honest nature of Aryan folk and their feminine tendency to project that nature onto others.

The Big Lie

Uncle Adolf >>>>

http://www.heretical.com/miscella/ahbiglie.html

This is like a lot of parties or social gatherings anymore. To put this in context, I am a shaker, not a hugger.
Everyone gets together, say a company Christmas party. You meet a lot of people you don't know; husbands, wives, maybe kids. Everyone hugs, the obligatory kiss to the cheek or hair on the side of the head, everyone is just wonderful, etc.
A shaker may not join in, or if he does, reluctantly and uncomfortably. He is not agreeable or affectionate just for the sake of it. He wants to know who he is dealing with, what he is getting into, and whether he has anything in common with others in the room.
More often than not, after shaking hands, he will stand with his back to the wall, checking things out, eavesdropping on conversations and generally getting the lay of the land. He is not unfriendly, but somewhat wary.
The US is like this. The world got together for a group hug, agreed what wonderful people they were, how the world needed saving, how they were just the right people to do it, etc.
The US did not participate. They shook hands, listened, took stock, quietly disagreed, and did not join in the rapture of the evening. Because of this, they are outsiders. They have insulted everyone, they are unfriendly, may be the enemy, etc.
The Liberal group huggers can't stand the rejection. How could the US go against the world? They are obviously wrong, etc.
I think it falls under another age-old bit of wisdom. Eat sh**! 50 billion flies can't be wrong.

Another reason why I don't read the Trudeau Star, and refuse free subscriptions to it.

Good old Kate, always standing up for America. Somebody should tell her the CP isn't using that slogan this year.

Geez, Steve - "0" CO2 emissions?? Guess you missed the part in Biology where your every brath exhales CO2 and that plant life dependes on it.

"with CO2 anything more than zero is probably not good"

My God. Do you know nothing of biology?

Let's just examine what would happen if there were zero CO2 in the atmosphere:

1) every plant on earth would die. Plants require CO2 to perform photosynthesis.

2) every human being on earth would die. The breathing reflex is triggered by CO2 sensors in the armpits. Without any CO2 in the atmosphere, every breath must be a conscious one, and falling asleep would be fatal. And of course, exhaling would be illegal.

3) all the plankton, the base of the food chain, would die (see #1)

CO2 is absolutely vital to life on earth. And the environmentalists want to bring CO2 levels down to zero? What does that tell you about their real agenda?

By the way, CO2 is a minor greenhouse gas. Water vapor accounts for 97% of all greenhouse gas.

If every country in the world were to agree to Kyoto and then somehow achieve their targets, what would be the result? 50 years from now, the mean global temperature would have dropped by 0.15 degrees C. The total worldwide cost for this miniscule drop? hundreds of trillions of dollars.

What would it take for Canada to meet its Kyoto goals? Every single car, train, airplane, truck and bus would have to be parked. Forever. And even with that measure in place, we still would not achieve our Kyoto goal (oh, and forget about eating anything you don't grow yourself - no trucks or trains means no grocery stores, no shipping wheat for your bread, no way to get food into cities).

One final point: I have proof that global warming is occurring. Satellite measurements of the North Polar icecap over the last 40 years show that the icecap has been visibly receeding. The only problem is that the north polar icecap I'm talking about is on Mars.

"Canada should stand by her man."?

"big, over-muscled guy"?

"our over-muscled boyfriend"?

I am having trouble figuring out if this chic is a man-hater a dike or both?

I am so sick and tired of listening to Paul Martin and the Liberals spout off about Kyoto. Is this not the same government that abandoned branchlines across western Canada putting thousands more big rigs on the road along with the accompanying emissions. With the stroke of a pen they single handedly added more emissions to the atmosphere than anyone else in this country. Stick it up your nose Paul!

A side note: Isn't it true if the "protocols" (Kyoto, Not the Nazi Propaganda novelette by the "Elders of Zion" )were fully implemented by all signatories, there still would only be an impact of less than one degree over the next 50 years? Does anyone pay attention to what happens every 600,000 years or so? Hint: It's not the Yellowstone caldera.

Global warming may or may not exist, I don't know and I don't know where I can find a ruler big enough to measure it. If it's a return to the warm periods that gave us colonization of Greenland, so be it. It wouldn't shock me.

What does irk me is the patent falsehoods being shopped around in the name of "The Environment", when it's fairly obvious, to any questioning reader, that it's either purely socialistic politics or a cash grab for "free" research funds. PhD isn't known as "Piled Higher and Deeper" for nothing. (Never would smear all PhD's, just a lot in this specific "field", whom happen to recieve, primarily, taxpayer-funded grants).

The facts are simple. Kyoto was designed, primarily, as an economic "brake" that happened to fit the US perfectly, not the rest of the world. Not as an "environmental" panacea. Never was.

And, by the way, Bill Clinton signed the "Accord", cynically knowing the US Senate wouldn't pass it. And they didn't, 95-0. So anything Bill says, just remember to ask for the salt.

Ed: "Do you know nothing of biology?"

Sure some...I live with a biologist who specializes in range and grasslands. Some sinks in...I just build her fences and keep her jeep working. I know more about weeds, cattle, grasses and soil than I ever thought I would.

I just assumed since that since we were talking about emissions it was meant from combustion/ manufactured processes. I figured out the breathing thing 57 years ago. Do you look for any stupid thing to jump on or do you have any idea on the info like intensity rather than emissions?

Well "steve", how about the fact that North America as a whole is a net consumer of CO2 as compared to your European gods who are net emitters. And why not take your "emissions" somewhere else.

I see Robert McClueless has joined the thread. Wonderful. Someone give me a shout when he get to the part where he yells "F**K THE JEWS"..... you know... the same way he does on that rancid website of his.

McClueless is here? Does he have some good advice about what we have to do to get elected? What is up with all these liberals and dippers trolling around saying we'll never get elected unless we do this or that? If they are sincerely trying to help then they are being treasonous to their own party. If they are not sincere?

You want bias?

Go to the CTV website and click on the video of the deputy leaders debate. Every time Mackay started to make a good point Jane Taber cut him off. In fact at one point she interjected on Mackay mid sentence and told Ann Mclelland to "get in there."

If the 61% who supported Martin's criticism of the U.S. regarding Kyoto had taken some personal responsibility for reducing emissions, I suspect our record would be substantially better than it is. Our economy would also be suffering the effects of our lifestyle changes.

Canada signed on to Kyoto without any feasible concept of how to meet the targets. The U.S. is doing better than Canada because they tackled the problem from the win-win angle of technology and efficiency. The only trouble is, unless there is an epoch-making breakthrough in energy technology, this approach is not going to achieve a net reduction in emissions. As Steve mentioned, the U.S. approach is only reducing the CO2 intensity of the economy, that is, the amount of CO2 produced per unit of economic output. As the economy grows, the CO2 emissions continue to grow, just more slowly than before.

The Canadian approach of signing the historic documents and wagging fingers at the U.S. is obviously even less effective.

I don't see any way that either government is going to achieve reductions in CO2 emissions. The only way those reductions will be achieved is if individuals decide to make changes in their own lives. And there is not much chance of that as long as we are sitting around arguing about whether the problem even exists, or saying we can't fix it unless we stop breathing.

Laura

p.s. - if you really are worrying about your breathing, please stop (worrying!!). It's the carbon cycle - you breath out carbon (dioxide), plants take it in and fix it as carbohydrates, you (and everything else living) eat plants (and other living things) and split the carbohydrates back into carbon dioxide. It's a continuous, balanced loop. More people, more agriculture, more plants taking up the carbon dioxide. No problem. The problem is the stuff we keep pumping out of the ground where it's been out of circulation for millions of years. And as for insulating ourselves against the next ice age, shouldn't we check to see if maybe we've got enough insulation, already?

I see Robert McLala is back from dancing, handing out candy and shooting his gun in the air after Sharon was hospitalized.

Hey steve your comment about 13% of thier's is a lot more than 24% of ours. Thant's why it's a precentage and not a number. They have way more people and way more industries. That's why it was ridiculous for us to sign this in the first place. Were competeing to get our emmisions down against some countries that don't even have matches to start a bonfire. But what they do have is evil dictators, that we get to give all our,oh sorry, rather buy carbon credits from.

All those comments and little or nothing said about the real reason for Mr. Chretien signing the Kyoto Accord even though there is not a hope of Canada ever meeting it. Control and money! The Liberals only chance of contoling the tar sands and preventing refining and other "emiting" industries from developing in Alberta as a "by product" is to weasel through the environment back door. Alberta's prosperity will be taxed through fines and penalties in order to do the honorable thing and meet our International Environment obligations. After all, we all know how honorable Mr. Chretien, Mr. Martin, et all are.

OT - congrats on winning the Weblog Award! Well done.

Go here and then come back and discuss:

http://www.warwickhughes.com/blog/

Global warming? What global warming?

If it is occurring (not proven), what is causing it? Is it bad? Can it be stopped? If we could stop it, would that be a good thing?

Ask the questions. Don't just accept the ecofascists views. They only want to cripple the US economy (little realizing that this would also cripple the economy of the planet)

BCer
My desert tonight was a pc of chocolate almond bar. Unfortunately I was chewing it when I read your post. A scream. Droll, droll. Christmas dinner should be fun at mother's this year.

Mitch, I agree that Taber caught herself from attacking McKay herself and then directed Anne Mclellan to "get in there" and respond to his statements.

I think that Paul Martin is throwing smoke on our Kyoto performance. Of course Paul Martin looks like a meathead for complaining about the U.S performance when the U.S., which did not sign Kyoto,is statistically doing better on the accord. However, the fact that he is beaking off to the U.S. is less important than the fact that Canada signed an agreement and is not living up to the agreement. 3 years after signing and an election and a half later, what are the details of the Liberal plan for Kyoto? His lack of clarification of a plan is creating opposition to the Kyoto accord. The facts state that we have CO2 emissions that are 24% higher than 1990. What is the plan to deal with this? I think Canadians should finally get something more than a "1-ton challenge" since Kyoto is about more than making excuses, it is about creating environmental results.

To Brian C. :

Sir,

Bill Clinton DID sign the "Kyoto Accord" , and Pres. Bush had nothing to do with it either. Former President Clinton signed the "Accord", cynically to make Nicey-nicey with " World Opinion". (He's still looking for his legacy, if you ask me.) He knew full well, when VP Al Gore returned with his copy, it was going to be a sop to the US' environmental left. In 1995, he needed that sop to keep them "in line" for his '96 run for re-election. He also was fully aware that the Senate would never ratify a treaty that emasculated the US economy, especially walking into an election. Keep that in mind when writing about the US not "signing" on, they did, just not the way it's usually reported.

My observations ( and forgive me this rant Kate, I don't get let out that much anymore, as I've explained to you):

As to the science of "Global Warming", who gets to set the benchmarks? I suggest we ask the poor soul who tried to walk over the Alps 4000 years ago in just his grass slippers. Why would he do something like that? Unless it was his tribe's HABIT to do so, and it was, you know, maybe like a walk in the park.

Just thinking out loud here.

Any assumptions of the "Carbon Cycle" being a "fixed" pool, and any "extras" being thrown in are due to human activity, is truly disingenuous. The levels of particulate matter, molecular or even smaller (you try and measure it, no body else can seem to raise the money to try) have and will always confound any "closed" equation for explaining the true environment where we have been blessedly placed. Or how big a "variable" do we get to play with in our examinations?

Remember "holes" in the o-zone (stupidly created by man) are being cured by Mother Nature every Spring, Summer, and Fall (in the Northern Hemisphere, at least) by, dare I say it, lightning. Yes, simple and complex electro-magnetism on a planetary scale. The bigger the hole, the more cosmic energy flows in at the poles. Creating MORE ENERGETIC WEATHER!! More lightning, more o-zone is created, look people, this is a real cycle, and given a chance, the Earth heals itself, it just takes a reallly looonnngg time.

Oooph! I think I have blisters on my fingers.

P.S. the answer to my earlier question is magnetic polar "flip".

Thanks.

"Do you look for any stupid thing to jump on or do you have any idea on the info like intensity rather than emissions?"

Steve, when I see something so stupid as someone saying that "with CO2 anything more than zero is probably not good", you're damn right I'm going to jump on it.

In case anyone is wondering, the primary sources of CO2 on earth, by several orders of magnitude, are volcanos.

more than 95% of the "free" carbon dioxide is in the ocean. 99999999.999999 % of carbon dioxide is locked up in the carbonate rocks that comprize the limestones and dolomites of the world alps,andes, Mt Etna alone provides 10% of all CO2 emmissions in the world. subducting dolomite into a volcano.

the temperature on Mars has been rising for about 100 years, the evidence is in the polar icecap stripes, no bio turbulance in the atmosphere to change the direct view of this. you can count the stripes.

Man is a result of global warming, not a cause. Canada was a sheet of ice from sea to frozen sea only 10000 years ago and the sooner that the naked apes like dr. d . suzuki admit this , the sooner we get them off the public payroll.

Regarding the panel discussion with Taber, why doesn't she just tattoo a sign on her forehead,
"Will Trade Journalistic Ethics For Govt Paycheque"?
It was pretty sad to hear her blatantly screeching at McKay.
Are half of the media even aware that they are supposed to be un-biased?

Could we have some sources with that data, Ed? Everything I have seen about volcanoes versus human activities says the difference is in the opposite direction - human activities producing many times the CO2 emissions of volcanoes.

Cal2 - so what? So there's lots of carbon dioxide in the oceans. Oceans absorb carbon dioxide, and in the process, they become more acid. Ocean acidification is happening at a rate of a hundred times faster than has happened for millions of years. (Let's see what that does to our fisheries.) And yes, the amount of carbon in limestones and dolomites dwarfs the amount we are talking about in biological cycling and fossil fuels. So what? That sink of carbon has been there for millions of years. Meanwhile there have been numerous cycles of atmospheric CO2 levels and of glaciation. Are you saying we don't need to pay attention to atmospheric CO2 levels because there's lots of carbon locked up in rocks? That's like saying that I don't need to pay attention to my bank account balance because my account is tiny compared to total deposits at the bank.

Yes we do have higher CO2 levels than a century ago but the greenhouse gas/temperature correlation is weak at best. I have voted Green before so I am interested in issues like this. The effects of CO2 appear to be dwarfed by the effects of water vapor and clouds so fixation on CO2 is ultimately not the sole problem either.

Irregardless of the U.S., the Liberals signed onto Kyoto. We need to see a more detailed plan from Martin so that Canadians, in an election campaign, can determine if this is a smart approach for Canada. From my understanding, large scale carbon sequestration methods to lower CO2 levels are not ready for mainstream industrial use yet and won't be until after 2010.

Brian,
The weakness I've seen pointed out in the correlation between greenhouse gases and temperature is this: in deglaciation cycles, the temperature rise comes FIRST, before the CO2 starts to rise, so how can CO2 be the trigger? The answer is that it's not the trigger, it's a magnifying factor. The temperature rises, causing more release of CO2, but then the higher CO2 levels drive the temperature even higher than it would have gone otherwise. The initial trigger for these changes would have been increased solar radiation due to orbital patterns etc. Now we are skipping the first part, and seeing a rise in CO2 without any natural-cycle trigger. What's more, we are seeing CO2 levels beyond what they have been for five cycles of glaciation (hundreds of thousands of years), and probably beyond what they have been for 20 million years.

As for the effects of water vapour, the difference with water vapour is that it keeps cycling out of the atmosphere (as rain or snow) instead of building up, so it can't become a driving factor. It amplifies temperature changes on a daily basis (more heat, more evaporation, more water in the atmosphere...) and yet it keeps getting cancelled out again. CO2 is a much smaller factor, but its effects are ongoing and continuous, so in the end it makes the difference.

C'mon folks, don't confuse Linda with facts. She doesn't want to know. It's way easier for her to say - US bad, rest of world, including Islamofascists - good. Actually simpler; anyone who hates US is good and "has no choice" when they use violence, for instance. WRT global warming, don't let Linda hear anyone say the science is unproven. You remember the "hockey stick," where you could feed in the number of pirates in the world and get back the same data. I recall her in a discussion a while ago, and someone had the temerity to use the Fraser Institute to back up their argument. Of course, Linda said they were right wingers and therefore, could be ignored. In fact anyone who doesn't agree with her is to be ignored or, if necessary, shut up. Linda McQuaig is truly one of the intellectual lightweights of the western world.

If you burnt all the hydrocarbons in the world and just used them as heat you couldnt raise the temperature of the atmosphere by one tenth of a degree. and if you constructed a burner under the ocean you could raise the temperature of the ocean by a hundredth of a degree.

Its a solar cycle. that is why the temperature on Mars has been rising over the same time period as the earth. check out the Mars polar icecap. 100 years of retreat - without humans.

the problem here is cause and effect. which is the cause and which is the effect.

the forests in BC that everyone touts as a great CO2 sink have grown and fallen and rotted 3 times since the forestry industry arrived here.

If you really want a carbon sink. cut all the big trees and bury them in a rock vault where they will never rot give up their carbon, its the midlife stage that uses up all the CO2.

Pravda always quotes the "scientist say" stuff like something out of a B movie picture.
Most of these "climotologists" are on the public payroll now that they dont have to report the weather.

Cal2-

That's the point I've been trying to make, the only thing I'd like to add is that we've had a whole bunch of ionized radiation that's been dumped through the hole in the o-zone. 40 years worth, I think, that and the potentiality of the magnetic poles flipping again, will create a lot of "free" energy for weather phenomena.

The views on carbon "sinks" and all that are very simple for people to grasp, but we're talking about years of influence from particle physics and the magnetic fields that control them. That's more than enough energy to influence any system, it even messes with my shortwave, FM AND AM reception. Don't even ask about background constants in any physics experiments.

The current propaganda doesn't even try to grasp with the complexity of the thermodynamic model, on any level that I've seen stipulated. And, until they do, I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and chant " la, la, la, la,la" like a three year old.

Porter

Laura...
Excellent, not too many people have the courage to say that global warming is causing higher co2 levels, this carbon credit thingy is an idea dreamed up by politicians to be seen to be doing something, but just are creating bigger beauracracies that generally vote for the naturally governing party, sort of like a carbon cycle, I guess. Here in Sask. our power company will have to pay 100million to some poor country for carbon credits, it think it would be better to use this money for clean coal technolgy or heaven forbid a nuclear power plant, since we are the worlds leading producer of uranium.

wait till Canada is sending billions of dollars over seas for Carbon credits. buying forests that may or may not be cut and all the time administrated by the same bunch that brought you the GST, the gun registry and the money feedback system known as the sponsorship scandal.

meanwhile the "new petrocurrency" which depends on the oil and gas exports pays the freight for an increasing bureaucratic nightmare.

THE WEST WANTS OUT!!!!!

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