Blogosphere Publicity for Separation Party of Albe from Albertanicus
Kate McMillan of Small Dead Animals, a giant in the Canadian blogosphere has declared her support for Alberta separation, and is a SPA member: I am a member of the Separation Party of Alberta. A person once accused me of treason because of this,... [Read More]

Tracked on September 30, 2005 9:45 AM

Yup. Alberta should separate. Good riddance. No more smarmy twerps like Ezra Levant, or mental defectives like Stockwell Day. (Say, wan't there a forced sterilization policy out there?) After I moved back to Québec from Calgary I started voting for the Bloc. Anything to be away from the freaks and bums from the Rest of Canada.

The Separation Party of Alberta could raise a lot of money out East.

Alberta seperation is about as smart an idea as Quebec seperation. Its a scheme advanced by ambitious fools who really don't undestand what they have until it's gone. We are a stronger country united, seperation would damage both the nation and the province.

Would you advocate Alberta becoming part of the U.S.?

That's not surprising Guy, since many people out East don't realize how much Alberta contributes to the country...

I'm not a member of the ASP, nor have I ever contributed funds to the party. That being said, I'm pretty close to joining up.

However, my emotions are mixed. One the one hand, I love Canada--but mostly for what it was. We've let ourselves slide into irrelancy through our destructive tax system, provincial and personal welfare system, neglect of the military, and lack of accountability in government. So, I hope that we can elect a conservative government who can make positive changes to return this country to being one of the greatest in the world.

On the other hand, I know that another Liberal government would fan the flames of separatism more than anything else. And I know that Alberta could do better on its own, than are in the current system. So part of me is actually hoping for a Liberal win, to speed the process of secession even more.

"Traitor": "In law, treason is the crime of disloyalty to one's nation. A person who reneges on an oath of loyalty or a pledge of allegiance, and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor. Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." The English Statute of Treasons (1350) distinguished high treason from petty treason. Petty treason was the murder of one's lawful superior, such as when a wife killed her husband, or a servant his master. High treason covered acts that constituted a serious threat to the stability or continuity of the state."

I can say we should merge with the US or with communist China for that matter. The law allows this because it protects free speech. I'd still be traitor though.

TB
Cerberus

Salvage:
No, I would not advocate joining the U.S.

While I do admire parts of the American government, I don't think it would be beneficial to Alberta.

And Quebec, as they are now, could never support themselves as an independent nation. Alberta can. That's the difference.

What pushed me over the edge? Meatheads like Guy mostly. His tune will change when they lose the cash cow however. Also CWB, Kyoto, SSM, Federal Firearms Registry, EEE Senate stalling. Too many things to list. They do not want us or our ideas. Eastern Canadians are not our peers. They have a different mindset. Government as nanny. In a seperate Alberta or Independant West we will be masters of our own house.

And to be more precise about it in Canada:

"Crimial Code, Part II, section 46. (2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act."

TB
Cerberus

Say, Alberta. If the libmoberals win again in the next federal election, please, please, please do separate. And please rescue/take BC, Sask, and Manitoba with you too.

I am on your side. I have had enough of this criminal joke of a federal government that we have suffered under for the last dozen years.

I'm not a member of the ASP either, but I would definitely vote for separation if it came to a vote. Like Shabbadoo, I love the old Canada but have very little emotional ties to the corrupt Liberal panty-waist socialist Liberal Canada. This new Canada is a navel-gazing international embarrassment.
Sean, I'm surprised you're a separatist with your views on SSM. You'd fit much better in Toronto! ;-)

It isn't separation, it's kicking Ontario and parts east out.

Seriously though, my primary recipe for Canada's ills is federalism. As a start just return to the division of responsibilities outlined in the constitution. If you want a better Canada, have a carefully consigned federal government. The more "Canadian" (vice Albertan, Ontarian, etc.) they try to make us, the more separatist we will become. I'm proud to be Canadian, but only in those things we hold in common. For example, your opinion on health care and education are not things I particularly value if you aren't from the same province as me.

What Bazoo said. Those are what pushed me over.

Thanks for the info TB.

We live in a country, where a government official can scam taxpayers of millions of dollars, pay back a portion and shed a crocodile tear or two, and get away without being called a "criminal."

In a country like that, I have no problem being labeled a traitor.

Well at least we can all agree that Canada isn't a real country, and that Ontario sucks. Let's just call it off now and stay friends.

I am not a member of the separation party, but I am a definite supporter of separation. Canada has an incredibly corrupt federal government, and they have turned us into laughingstocks. We are a hypocritical county, encouraging United Nations to reform while sentancing people who defraud taxpayers to lecture at universities. Our "national pride" is a health care system that is also rife with fraud and doesn't work, and every time someone mentions fixing it, "we don't want American-style health care" is yelled while ignoring that there are dozens of other countries whose models we could follow. And that's just two examples of the joke that this country has become.

Alberta would do well to start by getting rid of its federalist/socialist premier. See how it goes from there.

I am only in favour of Alberta separation if my province, BC, comes in on the deal.

Just think: a country with not only extensive oil fields but a shipping port on the Pacific?

We'd rule!

Judging by the following, what would happen to Quebec if Alberta separated. Seems a big slice of equalization paid to QC comes from AL....

http://angryincanada.blogspot.com/2005/09/charity-begins-in-quebec.html

Dear Alberta Separatists,

As the QuebecHarpermaniac, let me explain something to you:

Quebec could survive without Canada. You talk about equalization payments? Quebec does not depend on them. That's bullshit. We get them because that's the system and the system has perverted our governance and civil service in Quebec.

A separate Quebec would wake up on day 1 smelling coffee. Either go bankrupt or change our ways.

You are deluding yourself if you think we'll go bankrupt. We will choose to survive by cutting the civil service and reducing the services offered by the government.

In other words: Quebec separatism would be everything the separatists hate - funny, eh?

I say this because we always assume that things will run in a separated province just like they did in a confederated one. But that's not accurate at all.

Could Alberta prosper without Canada? Absolutely.

But why bother? Cause you hate us easterners?
No you don't.

The problem is you don't see the natural alliance between Alberta and Quebec that could help make this country a fabulous place.

Up above, someone is using my name. No matter .... his thoughts are the same as mine. I want a WEST separation: AB,SK,MB and BC. Why do I want it you ask? Preston Manning said "The West wants in!". The East said "Piss off. We don't give a rat's ass what you want but we'll sure take your money".

I think Canada should break up. Like most I have fond memories of what it used to be like, when hard work was prized over victimhood, when theft from the public treasury was a terrible thing, and when and the national anthem at the start of the CBC broadcast in the morning filled me with pride.

Those days are long gone. Today we're country with no identity save for a low-brow anti-Americanism and perhaps a unique tolerance for corruption.

I hope Alberta goes its own way, because that will herald the departure of my own province, British Columbia.

Can anyone seriously say that Alberta or BC would suffer because of it?

Re: "laughingstocks". Who or whom is calling Canada a laughingstock? Surely not yourself, unless spitting venom and resentment at your family and neighbors is what passes for laughter and frivolity in the mind of a *new* Canadian conservative these days. Certainly nobody down here (Michigan) except for the oddball Pat Buchanan remark that nobody pays attention. You live in a land of enormous geographical size, in a hostile environment, with two languages and cultures, with wealth and opportunity AND despite all your differences and swinging handbags at each other, for the most part manage to work together in harmony and peace and keep good relations with your neighbors. The United States doesn't laugh at that. I suspect the rest of the world doesn't either. Canada has respect and dignity, you should be proud. On the contrary, it is your self-loathing and hostility that's laughable -- laughably ignorant.

I am torn between disdain and distrust in the Canada we have become and the country I served proudly in the RCAF/CAF for 25 years. Can the country be rescued by a complete change of government and with that change also a complete change of ethics and ethos in the direction the country should be taken? That ethos would recognize the individual as paramount with the federal government providing those needs that can only be met collectively, roads , national defence, currency, an incorrupible system of law and justice ,etc. rather than big government being paramount. Being in my fourth quarter of my first century of life my patience is not inexhaustible. If just one more election provides a roadblock to achievement of these ends I believe I would have to espouse separation as the only viable alternative. I would nevertheless hold the hope that the rest of the country would see the writing on the wall and espouse the same bright beacon of hope this radical change of direction for Alberta, and perhaps the whole west, would hold for all of Canada.

I think separation should happen because you know you would have the the best shot at being what you want to be and a chance to better have the life you want, not because you don't like what you have now.

It's like a person comtemplating a divorce. There are reasons to get out but they're not as important as the reasons to want to be somewhere.

The straw that broke the camels back for me was back on the 10th of march (I think, it could have been May) when PMPM ignored the fall of his government and just kept on going. Any other true democracy on this planet would of had him and his crew hanginf from trees on the front lawn. VIVA LA LIBERTA ALBERTA!!!!!!

"A separate Quebec would wake up on day 1 smelling coffee. Either go bankrupt or change our ways."

Could you afford coffee without the huge Federal transfers' of $$ in Quebec ??

Maybe you could substitue poutine for coffee . . . that's a big part of Quebec culture and we understand you have lots of it.

Wouldn't bankruptcy be fun . . you could be as poor as Cuba except you would be free.

Please go . . Westerners are sooooooo tired of paying for your ambitions. We'll make you a good deal if you take Ontario, well at least the Toronto - Ottawa region wth you. Special . . . . a 2-fer

Provided you simply advocate separation by constitutional means (whatever that is these days), you are not treasonous by law.

But of course you are no better or worse than any other separatist, an Albertan Tweedledum to a Québécois Tweedledee.

You are peas of a pod; both whining brats who always want their own way regardless.

I don't know if Alberta should separate or not, it depends on what is best for Alberta. I don't think they owe anything to Canada.

But as an eastener who can't currently bring herself to leave a good job and all her family, I am asking you: Please, when it's time to separate, give me some warning first. I'll be on the next flight to Calgary, job and in-laws be damned. I'll work in a coffee shop if I have to, but if there is going to be a country of Alberta, I would much rather live there than in a Canada without you.

I'm not an Albertan; I live in Ontario. Does that disqualify me from joining?

Before you automatically say no I should mention that I've visited & worked in Calgary on several short stints. Would that not make me eligible for dual residency & thus an absentee Albertan?

Oh yeah. I've been told I look good in a cowboy hat.

I'm going to recall my earlier remarks. I don't really want to separate from Canada, but I'd love to separate from Ottawa, the GTA and that JJM clown who sits on his Ivory Tower / Throne (also known as a toilet).

Billy Bob Tweed, from Michigan, appears to me to be a leftist crank, and not to be taken seriously.
I used to like Canada. My Uncle Fritz was in the 82nd Airborne in WW II, and he told me the story of jumping behind German lines into the Netherlands in September of 1944, and being surrounded by the Waffen SS. They managed to survive only because units of the Canadian Army came to their rescue.
Imagine something comparable happening today.
As an American, I have no dog in this fight. However, if secession does ever happen, I would strongly argue against joining the U.S. I think an independent Alberta/B.C. would become a vibrant new member of the Angloshere, punching above its weight much as Australia does. And I fear if Hillary Clinton and like minded liberals enjoy a generation of power, they would turn the U.S. into the Canada of today. It could happen. An electorate capable of electing Bill Clinton, twice, cannot be trusted.
Americans such as myself see an independent Alberta/B.C. as a potential political refuge.

Canada passed it's 'best before' date at the moment Pierre Idiot Trudeau was elected. It's been in freefall as a viable nation ever since.

Floating a nanny state with half the country working directly or indirectly for government is no way to build a tax base to sustain such dependancy.

Supporting useless legacy-producing changes such as bilinualism, multiculturalism, metic system, full blown Indian welfare substate, Quebec payolla, corruption and graft at all levels .... is suicide in slo-mo.

Canada has been plundered by it's 'betters' in every way possible. Why wouldn't Alberta that has a poplulation of people who still have some decent values and integrity, want to leave the sodomy applauding Eastern neighbors. We have little in common.

Canada is not a real country .. it's used to be, but not anymore. I am in BC and my great hope is that if Alberta goes, BC will get sucked into the vortex and go with them.

As a born and bred Ontario lad, I'd like to say I support Western Separation because it is the only thing on the horizon capable of smacking the power elite of this country out of their smarmy superiority and Quebec worship.

I'd prefer it if the country could remain united, but if it must split could Western Ontario please come along with you guys? We could make the border right at the Credit River between Oakville and the People's Republic of Toronto.

I am not a member of the ASP but then again I'm not a member of any party. I wouldn't want to leave BC,Sask,and Manitoba behind in Canada to be worked over by Ottawa. Wow Bazoo, the Canadian Western Bank ticks you off that much huh :)

I tend to agree with Charles Fallon that Alberta and Quebec have many common interests within Canada. I think every Albertan is starting to understand the feelings of Quebeckers a little better. If the BQ morphed into more of an Action Democratique style of Provincial Rights Party and ran candidates across the country, it would be a serious entity.

Treason?!? As our new governor general stated.

“The duty of the citizen becomes a crime if it makes him forget the duty of the man.”

My thoughts as a life-long Maritimer mirror The Phantom's, just above. Alberta should just go. As long as it stays, the Liberals will use them as the boogeyman in election after election to scare the soft socialist mass of Ontario voters into returning them to power. If such open bigotry and hostility toward the west cannot be defeated at the ballot box through the election of a party led by a westerner and supported strongly by westerners, there's no point in keeping the country together anyway.

I am definitely for seperation, but only under one condition. The seperation party must find a credible leader. Then, watch the floodgates of seperation open up to those sitting on the proverbial fence.......

I can understand why alberta should seperate. None the less it would leave me very sad. When I lived and worked in Alberta I found the folks there, honest, generous and hard working. The core problem is that the legacy of chretien/martin is a country that believes in "nothing". Canadians live day to day, pay day to pay day with a destroyed heritage and a vision of nothing. Everything is decided on which way the wind is blowing and how things can be manipulated. The folks I know in Alberta want a country they can believe in and be proud of.
While i don't like it I can understand Alberta going it's own way and I wish them "gods spead"

Charles, As a Quebecker, I wish what you wrote was true, but alas, wishing does not make it so.

"Quebec could survive without Canada. You talk about equalization payments? Quebec does not depend on them. That's bullshit. We get them because that's the system and the system has perverted our governance and civil service in Quebec."

The government & unions control public opinion. There has never been a protest against our incredibly high taxes and strongly statist 'national' government. If they lose the federal transfer payments, they will bump up taxes some more and nationalize whatever industries that can. They call this 'Investing in Our Future'. I call it 'Wasting Our Property'.

"You are deluding yourself if you think we'll go bankrupt. We will choose to survive by cutting the civil service and reducing the services offered by the government."

Sorry. YOU are deluding yourself thinking that the public will have the will to cut the civil service and reduce services. The public wants more... especially if the unions show them how it's coming from the rich. There will be another mass exodus from Quebec, taking all the better minds and money.

"In other words: Quebec separatism would be everything the separatists hate - funny, eh?"

Seperatism is about control. They will justify the increased taxes and socialist state as the fruits of their struggle.

Time to move to Alberta !!

The Phantom said

"I'd prefer it if the country could remain united, but if it must split could Western Ontario please come along with you guys? We could make the border right at the Credit River between Oakville and the People's Republic of Toronto."

Um, if it's OK with you, could we make the border the 427? That way some more of us 905ers that despise the PRoT can come along too.

Jeff said: "I am definitely for seperation, but only under one condition. The seperation party must find a credible leader. Then, watch the floodgates of seperation open up to those sitting on the proverbial fence......."

A credible leader? How about Ted Morton?

I am not a member of the ASP - however, I am an advocate for separation. It took me a long time to find my way here - but I believe that the only way Eastern Canada is ever going to understand that we mean business is the leave. In my heart I believe that the best thing for Canada is a much looser form or confederation - which would also satisfy Quebec.

Canada, in it's present form does not work. Equalization has been a complete failure, keeping "have not" provinces down rather than building them up. Arrogance and corruption at the national level has turned us into a Banana Republic and poorly concieved welfare programs have turned us into a nanny state. All of which is being paid for by Alberta and Ontario. As an Albertan I'd be perfectly happy to pay all those ridiculous bills as long as I get a voice at the table.

Alberta deserves this voice and as long as Eastern Canada is not willing to even entertain the notion of parliamentary reform, and other solutions to the democratic deficit (EEE senate etc.) that presently exists in the country I will continue to advocate for western separatism! Right now we get nothing - na da - squat for our investment.

Obviously there's no treason at all involved in advocating a change in the structure of government. Do you self-righteous eastern types, who get a thrill out of squawking "treason" at the people who pay your welfare, consider the Fathers of Confederation to have been traitors? Why not? What's the difference? Didn't they owe allegiance to a government? and didn't they want a different government? String 'em up for traitors!

Look, nobody owes any allegiance to the Canadian government. A Canadian owes allegiance to the Queen, personally. What's that? You owe your allegiance to any garbage-eating wog that tickles Paul Martin's fancy? Congratulations, you're not a Canadian, and you have no right to lecture anybody.

Every Canadian has the right to advocate any change of government he considers advisable, and to take steps to bring that change about. That's not treason, that's citizenship. Call a separatist a traitor and you simply identify yourself as a moral idiot and an incompetent citizen.

Of course there's no equivalency between Quebec and Alberta separatism. Canada has spent forty years and untold billions of dollars paying for the loyalty of Quebeckers. I can easily understand how an uninformed and stupid easterner - which would be, in short, an easterner - can imagine that there was some kind of deal going on, in which Quebeckers had actually somehow agreed to be bought, and that they were now reneging on the deal. It's a contemptibly stupid position, but an understandable one. I can certainly appreciate that an Ontarian who has been shown up as a damned fool will resent the people who showed him up. But you don't have that gripe against Alberta. You've tied us up and raped us repeatedly. You're god damned right we want to get away. Resent that? Great. Perhaps you'll choke on that resentment and die, thus saving us the trouble of acquiring nuclear weapons and taking you out ourselves.

No, anybody who talks bullshit about "treason" is simply demonstrating that he has no brains and no balls. It's how a coward talks big.

I grew up in Alberta, left for the States in 1981, and am now a US citizen. Albertans would be smart to separate -- staying in Canada has no benefit for Alberta and, unless there is a radical change to the Senate (i.e., making it a regionally representative elected body), Alberta has absolutely no say in how Canada is governed. Alberta is a perfectly viable national unit -- go for it! Get out of Canada before they nationalize your natural resources ..... But please, drop the notion of becoming part of the US -- our political cultures are too different and it is doubtful (in the extreme) that the US would want to admit Alberta as a state.

Severation? Dr. Guillotine, where are you?????

Severance package for Dingwall?
By ALEXANDER PANETTA

OTTAWA (CP) - After resigning as head of the Royal Canadian Mint amid controversy, David Dingwall is being considered for a severance package>> cnews

"Alberta would do well to start by getting rid of its federalist/socialist premier."

I'm workin' on it.

"OTTAWA (CP) - After resigning as head of the Royal Canadian Mint amid controversy, David Dingwall is being considered for a severance package>> cnews"

C'mon, maz, there's a reader tips thread here. Please post the news tips there and keep this one on topic, ok?

I support an independent Alberta as well. I live in Red Deer County, just north of the riding that elected the only separatist to Alberta's legislature (back in 1982). This area is really the heart of separatism in Alberta, and I would say that already over 50% of the population of rural central Alberta support independence. I don't know how deep that support is.

There is no single thing that pushed me over the edge in terms of my support for independence. I can best describe it as a combination of no credible proponents for Canada in this province, and a growing realization that confederation is really a colonialist mechanism that allows Ontario and Quebec to control the rest of Canada. Canada has democratic window dressing, but the reality of it is that the Prime Minister and the Supreme Court hold 100% of the policy making power in the country, and the Prime Minister alone controls 100% of the public purse. Eastern Canadians have a monopoly on the Prime Minister's Office, and also control the Supreme Court as a result of a convention that guarantees Ontario and Quebec 6 out of the 9 seats on the court, regardless of what their populations are.

Is Sean a Librano$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$/Censor.

So to the ASPers, I think Albertans would be interested in knowing under what conditions the ASP would no longer want out of Canada. Sure the heat is a little high right now but what if in 15 years, the Conservatives have been in office for a decade? What does the ASP want?

Does it want:
1. A EEE senate
2. Lower taxation
3. A more responsible Canadian voice in international affairs.

What happens if Canada evolves such that these exist in 10-20 years? Does the ASP have such a wish list?

Yup, all for it. What's taking so long?
Oh yeah, when you're done, please invade Sask and rescue us over here too.

"Our frustration is greater when we have much and want more than when we have nothing and want some. We are less dissatisfied when we lack many things than when we seem to lack but one thing."
Erich Hoffer

Alberta should just play the Quebec card . . . THREATEN to leave. Every time the nutjobs in Ottawa do something they don't like, just do what Quebec did for its language laws & speak-police . . just say we don't accept it and we will do what we want.

If Ottawa complains, just tell them to get stuffed. If they continue to complain, find ways to turn off the money taps to Ottawa . . .

Alberta should open up an embassy in Washington ASAP. If Ottawa complians - point to what Quebec does in countries like France and then tell ottawa to get stuffed.

Alberta should opt of ALL federal programs like pension, RCMP, Healthcare etc etc - like Quebec did.

Alberta to Ottawa. . you are Stuck on Stupid so we OPT OUT.

Now bugger off & leave us alone.

Fred, I agree, "the threat" is what we should be doing.
Brian C - good questions. IF the CPC was in power for 10 yrs and IF they actually did what good conservatives are supposed to do then the separation movement would die pretty quick out here.
So, abolish Same-Sex Marriage. Triple (or at least double) E Senate, increase military spending, get out of my life and leave me alone, lower taxes, eliminate the gun registry, eliminate hiring quotas for women and vismin (affirmative action) and quit pandering to Quebec. The obvious one would be "be honest and don't rip us off like AdScam". Those things would calm me down and bring me back to singing "O Canada".

You are not getting pushed so quit playing the victim game. You should decide to go because it is the best way to be in the kind of mature nation state that follows your values.

You'd be crazy to stay in a situation you find intolerable.

Just go. And take the rape victim ebt with you. One of the best results for me will be that you'll have him on your side of the fence.

"garbage-eating wog" ?
He could be your Minister of Immigration.

First off I'd like to thank the eastern brain dead monkey spankers like Guy for helping create the western separation movemnet...great work sphincter boys....keep it up and we'll be lttle further on our way all the faster with each purile insult.

Sencondly in answer to sean's original question m yes I am a separatist...my tipping point was the smear job used against the west in the 2000 elelction and my flash point was the return of an openly corrupt and statist criminal syndicate to power after all the revelations we have had since 2000.

I wish this could be fixed through the federal system but I'm afaid the federal system has been sculpted to resist change and marginalize domocratic reform.

I now believe that it will take massive upheaval in confederation along with the subsequent economic winter this will create to get a proper functional democratic constitutional federation....all we have now is a weak confederation which Ottawa pretends is a central dictatorship for the sole purpose of profiteering for themselves and their supporters.

Down with centralist tyranny up the Alberta revolution!!

The problem with Canada is democracy. There is none. One vote every four years is not democracy. The politics, bureaucratic infrastructure and media are monopolized by the left, and despite the widespread crime - blindly and cultishly supported by the left. And because of that the rest of us are forced to take the ride, against our wishes, intelligence, beliefs and rights, year in and year out.

If it were possible I'd want those opposed to this ridiculous situation, from every part of the country, to form our own federal government. Why bother living through more of this farce? We'd share with them and their government where mutually beneficial, but we'd take care of our own values and priorities, paying our taxes to our own government. And enjoying the benefits that come from that.

As far as Quebec separation goes, it's a non-starter. First of all, who legally owns most of the land? Secondly, given the whole idea is based on protecting Quebecs independent culture, how does separation serve that purpose? Does any idiot in Quebec really think the rest of the continent will give a shit about the french language, metric or socialism? How about the culture makers, like the media? Or manufacturing, packaging and trade? Nobody will bother increasing language or 'culture' costs against the paltry revenue generated from such a small and by birthrate, declining market. Spanish will become the second language of the continent. French will sink into the bayou, just like in Louisiana.

Canadian separation movements of all kinds demonstrate that the human ape is incapable of being content and will inevitably create imaginary problems to fill the void when there are no real problems.

I've worked as a right-wing propaganda writer for 15 yrs. The one thing about my own political tribe that truly disgusts me is our willingness to convince ourselves that "this country is going to hell in a handbasket."

We are a G8 country, making us one of the most prosperous and economically influential countries on the planet. More famous countries like Australia, Spain or Ireland are not in our league. We also consistently score highly re. quality of life indicators. Likewise, business competitiveness indicators, etc. etc. etc.

Except for the weather, we live in a paradise by global standards. But apparently paradise isn't good enough for some people.

So what are some of the arguments we've heard here for Alberta or Western separatism?

"We have a different perspective than eastern Canadians." More different than, say, California vs New York, New England vs. the Deep South in the U.S.? More different than England vs Scotland? It really takes some serious navel-gazing to turn western Canadian regionalism into a nationalist cause.

"The Liberals are corrupt and they don't represent us." Yes, that's true. But penny-ante domestic scandals are hardly grounds for separation. Alberta runs a patently undemocratic one-party state. Recently, Klein even pooh-poohed the notion that the legislature had the right to debate the budget before it was enacted. Is this your icon for how a glorious western republic would be run?

"Western alienation". I've lived in the west all my life and I don't know what this means. The Canadian federation is already so decentralized that the only regular encounter most people have with the federal government is the post office. In my view, what makes westerners feel "alienated" is that our souls are too small to imagine anyone even mildly different from our white-bread reality as being fellow country-men.

The entire notion of western separation belongs exclusively to narrow-minded, self-absorbed people who are mad at life and looking for someone to blame for their personal failures.

This is a great country and anyone who thinks otherwise needs psychiatric help.

What a bunch of BS, Mentok.

Most separatists do not want to separate because "We have a different perspective that easterners." We're not intolerant of other points of view. We ARE intolerant of people ignoring our perspective though.

More than anything, it's the drive for excellence that pushes people towards separatism, because we're don't like it that people settle for "We're a G8 country". We want to be the best. We're sick of people settling for a corrupt government on the excuse that "all politicians are the same."

And to conclude with insults by calling separatists "narrow minded" and needing psychiatric just makes you look like silly. "People mad at life and looking for someone to blame for their personal failures"??! Lots of personal failures in Alberta, aren't there?

First of all, Quebec separate? OK. Equalization payment debate with Quebec? Who cares? Who would Quebec parlez-vous with? France thinks they are a bunch of hillbillies, and let 'em try speaking in French only with the Americans. (snicker)

I am not a member of ASP, but then, I am very wary of joining up with any group. I daydream about Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and if they clean up their act, BC joining together as a strong country. I think the dream of returning Canada to the pre-Trudeau days is not attainable, so a western republic is probably for the best.

Sean, I have been what I call an Alberta Republican for nearly 25 years now. Living in Manitoba in 1981 and watching the announcement of the NEP on the television news made me very aware even then that there was nothing in our federation about equality in a supposed confederation of equals. (Classic moment for me was watching Ed Broadbent address the press conference on the NEP and being asked by what was then a 12 year old girl the famous question, “But Mr. Broadbent, what happens if the price of oil GOES DOWN?” Everyone in the press gallery including Broadbent laughed at her! I wonder whatever became of that brilliant young lady.)

I moved to Alberta in 1985 and since then decided that there was something a little nobler about being a Republican versus a separatist. Being a Republican sort of makes me more of a rebel in the classic American sense, meaning a very serious one, the notion of “separation” being more a Quebec political ploy for “gimme gimme gimme.”

Sean, if you have any influence at all in the Separation Party of Alberta you should bring to their attention that a name change is appropriate and would legitimize the party’s role first as the real right of centre opposition party in this province (filling the vacuum of the old Social Credit Party). That’s where it needs to start first. Establishing a proper voice and alternative to the quasi “Klein Conservatives” for right leaning, non federalist, pragmatic conservatives such as I. As long as there is no conservative substitute for the left leaning PC Party in Alberta, then Republicans like you and I have little say in where our province’s future should lead.

Let's not compare Quebec separation with Alberta separation. Quebec can never support itself. Alberta can. In fact a separated western Canada can.

I used to live in Calgary. Did for many years. I now live in BC. I am not a member of the ASP. But I will go back to Alberta when a vote for separation is held. I will vote "Yes".

As I've said many times in these posts, if Alberta wants to change Canada for the better they need to stop talking and start doing. Alberta needs to shake up a few people in central Canada. It is just too easy to accept handouts when there is no cost to be paid. But I predict that a lot of people who now vote Liberal, and that means voting for SOCIALISM, will change when they realize the cost of doing so is losing Alberta.

There are a lot of good people in Ontario and there are a lot of votes now going to the Liberals that will quickly go to a CPC that stands as the sole chance of keeping Canada together. But we need to realize that the CPC is not necessarily any better for us than the Liberals have been. The real power in this country is the people behind the Liberal Party who are pulling the strings. My fear is that these same people are also behind the CPC. So we need to push, and I mean PUSH, the CPC to adopt all of the planks we support. ALL of them! It's either that or it's goodbye.

And Alberta should not every become part of the US. NEVER! I love the US and I support them, unlike many Canadians, but I do not want to join them.

So Alberta, lets stop talking and start doing. I'm with you.

After separation, of course, we'll still live in a paradise by global standards, so you would appear to have no point, meathook. Ah, but you don't like white bread very much. That's what's really wrong, isn't it? Too many white peo- oops, that's "loaves of white bread", I do beg your pardon.

Yeah, my soul is so small that I don't approve of kleptocracy. That's why people object to corruption and tyranny after all, smallness of soul. Really bigged-souled people steal everything they can lay their hands on and gloat over it.

Well, you'll still be in nirvana under your Liberal gurus after we're gone, mahatma meathead, so why don't stop your whining and get used to it. The whistle is being blown on you. You can steal from your own neighbours for a change.

Well, Shabbadoo, I think all of us who are engaged in politics are striving for excellence. I fail to see how carving up an already successful country to create a petty principality smaller than New Zealand would advance that goal in the global economy.

I certainly don't suggest Canadians should settle for the status quo. I do suggest that separatism as a reaction to Canadian problems is a classic example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

"We ARE intolerant of people ignoring our perspective though." What perspective is that, exactly?

And, in point of fact, there are many personal failures in Alberta, as everywhere. Primarily spiritual ones. The fact that you assumed I meant monetary success demonstrates my point.

And speaking of demonstrating the point, in the next comment, Doubting Thomas says "I daydream about Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and if they clean up their act, BC joining together as a strong country." Apparently even BC isn't worthy in western separatists crabbed little world.

Well, I could go on, but, ultimately, debating with western separatists feels like mocking a mentally handicapped kid.

One last thought to leave you with: Oil is a non-renewable resource. What happens when it runs out?

Looking back, I first became interested in politics about the time of the 95 QC referendum. Prior to that I was largely apolitical and living in Ontario (I think it is a condition that many Ontarions are inflicted with). I so wanted QC to be remain part of Canada and stayed glued to my TV as the referendum results were being reported. This desire that my Canada includes Quebec was based more on the desire of the ideal of Canada as a "family" of provinces coast to coast, and Quebec as an integral part of the "family". Liberal brainwashing perhaps…..yes I probably got sucked in.

Now I see Canada as a dysfunctional family of provinces and as I have learned in my private life, family for family's sake is a disaster.

I moved to Alberta for good late in 95 (having lived here previously), and have loved this province and everything about it ever since. I think that I may have blinders on when I cannot now think of any particular benefit to having Alberta remain a part of Canada. I’m sorry, I just can’t.

Someone back up the thread mentioned that we need a leader, and one will emerge. First, though, I think we need a grassroots movement towards building a case and greater support for Alberta Separation. Don’t be afraid to discuss this openly, be prepared to discuss this with everyone we know in every opportunity we have to present this case.

I wonder how many people know that a farmer in Western Canada must market their grain through the Canadian Wheat Board despite the fact that they may be able to get more money for it elsewhere. Further to this, I wonder how many people know a farmer in Eastern Canada can market his grain wherever and to whomever he wants. What's up with that?

On another front, I wonder how many people know that it looks like Ottawa as part of the Kyoto plan would like to initiate a Carbon Tax, and that carbon dioxide emitted from auto plants in eastern Canada is exempt from this.

Both of these points are well detailed in the following recent columns by Licia Corbella and Ezra Levant.

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Corbella_Licia/2005/09/27/1237173.html

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Levant_Ezra/2005/09/25/1235272.html

These inequities make my blood boil, and I view them as attempts by our feds to put up an imaginary border in how certain rules apply to certain regions. I guess it is now up to us to make this border a fact. Think about how exciting it will be to play a role in the establishment of a new country.

To clear up the steaming heaps of spoor trail the federalistas leave when they speak of "traitors"....this is ,of course, more mindless misdirection which has no basis in constitutional fact or ethical integrity. There is a whole generation of liberal quislings out there who ate the heaping gobs of Trudeaupian revisionism in school and media....mindless indoctrinates who fail to realize Canada is constituted as a confederational egalitarian arrangement...NOT a centralized federation. Partners in a confederation are equal and join or leave the confederation willingly as a matter of their INDIVIDUL democratic free wills.

I get deep belly laughs recalling how this stupid myth of "federalism" was so deeply engrained by the feds that loons like Chretien actually believe their own lies and thought they could BS or intimidate the SCC into confirming the lie with his reference question about the legality of separation on the eve of the Quebec referendum...but the Supremes couldn't agree with the Fed-Lib un breachable centralized fedration lie because Candian centralized federation is a myth...the Constitution clearly define a confederal partnership in convention only...to say what Chretien wanted them to would have put what litle credibility the SCC has in the crapper....so they returned an answer to the affirmative about Quebec's ability/right to separate...it is a right of confederal association...we are a CONfederation where a simple local madate by any partner can take them out of the arrangement...they tried to play this down with the clarity act which contains a lot of arbitrary ultra vires regulations for how the local mandate must be run and the percentage they "recognize"...but this is quite arguably a fraud as it only took 50% plus 1 for provinces to enter confederation and it is reasonable and ethical that the same formula apply to leaving.

So separation from a voluntary confederation that makes Ottawa a limited central government only by convention is far from being "traitorous"....locally it is an act of patriotism to take a province (legally, bloodlessly, democratically and constitutionally) out of a criminally corrupt, nepotistic and abusive association with the Ottawa government which unconstitutionally acts like a centralized omnipotent syndicate.

Now supporting Alberta separation may seem "traitorous" to someone who profits from the corruption or injustice of the corrupted confederal arrangement....but of course this is relative to their level of reliance on the corruption.

As a rule, I have noticed that those who shout "traitor" the loudest are usually the most corrupt or reliant on the spoils of confederal inequity.

Charles Fallon:

Re: "The problem is you don't see the natural alliance between Alberta and Quebec that could help make this country a fabulous place"

Huh? Let's see what they have in common. Prime Ministers: All have come from Quebec for the last 37 years (except when Clark and Campbell stopped at 24 Sussex for a cup of coffee). Political power in Ottawa - well the CF18 contract illustrated that pretty well didn't it. Corruption - that is also a one way street - to Montreal that is. Appointment of senators - Ottawa just keeps on ignoring the senators that Alberta puts forward - you know, the elected ones (now that must frighten the Ottawa mandarins). Should we discuss the gun registry, it certainly wasn't Alberta's idea but hey, it makes Quebec and Ontario happy so screw the rubes out west.

Ottawa's posture is simple - bend over to kiss Quebec's ass and then turn around to kick Alberta in the ass. BTW - Ontario just gets ignored because the voters here are too stupid to reject the Liberals.

Are you sure Quebec would simply adjust by reducing services. I spend a lot of time in Montreal and am fully aware the trouble the Charest government is in because it wants to cut back.

Alberta could take a page out of Quebec's playbook though - use the separatist threat to hold a knife to Ottawa's throat because that is the only way they will take notice.

Well, Mentok, I thought that you take minds, not read souls...I'm sure you're right, that there are many "spiritual failures" within Alberta, though I couldn't look at someone on the street and tell whether or not they are spiritually successful or not.

You sound like a typical socialist, accusing that money is the root of all evil. Yet, as Ayn Rand says, "Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?"

Financial gain, through the labour of one's own hands and mind, is a fair measure of one's success or failures. Money isn't everything, but it would sure be tough to run any sort of civilization without it.

Also, like it or not the oil is not going to run out tomorrow, next year, or in the next quarter century. It's not a tap that will suddenly turn off. Oil is big in Alberta, to be sure, but it is not the be-all and end-all. The key is to make sure that our provincial governments use the proceeds from non-renewable resources to help encourage other sustainable industries within the province.

"This is a great country and anyone who thinks otherwise needs psychiatric help"

Not from where I stand......and you will agree some day when you hear that cathartic "pop" as your head emerges from your anus for the first time and you see sunlight and reality for the first time....like intellectual birth....it will come to you some day but not as long as you live in denial of the deep flaws in Canada's confederal arrangements.

Mentok,
What happens when we run out of oil? What do we care about that. You and I will be long gone but at least, if we have had a chance to build our own country before that happens we will have something to leave to future generations. As it stands now, the children of Western Canada have a very doubtful future. Just ask any of the vicitms of the NEP. The billions we send to Ottawa every year go to such things as a severance package for Dingwall. We don't agree with our money being spent that way.We don't agree with your love of corruption,either. Don't you understand that enough is really enough? What does it take to get that through your LPC head?
Sean. If you can change the name to the Republic of Alberta Party..... Goodbye Ralph and Co.

Just to be clear, I'm neither a socialist nor a liberal. In fact, I have a pedigree of dedication and sacrifice to the conservative cause that I'm sure few here could match.

What I am is a patriot. It bothers me profoundly as a Conservative patriot that most other conservatives assume that if you love this country, with all its flaws, then you must be some sort of Liberal or commie. But the shame, in my view, rests with them, not me.

You are all drinking your own bath water too much. This country has flaws but it is not dysfunctional. Telling yourself that it is will only make you unhappy. Chill out.

Oh, and no, Shabbadoo, I do not think money is the root of all evil, but please by all means pray to Saint Ayn Rand for the salvation of my soul if you like. I'm sure I can use all the help I can get.

Mentok, we are an example of the proverb, "Hope deferred makes the heart sick." I know when it comes to my country my heart is sick. The Libs like to pit one region against another making sure they get support from the larger one. It's a gamble they make and sometimes I think we should call their bluff.

For the record I've always been proud to be canadian. Since the last election that pride is gone. For me that is Paul Martins legacy.

Mentok, you seem perplexed that the West isn't HAPPY being a perpetual second-class citizen in Canada, despite having to foot their fair share and more of the bill; up until recently (and it seems to change every year or two recently), there are/were only 3 "have" provinces in Canada: BC, Alberta, and Ontario. This country, OTOH, is run by and for the Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal cabal, and if you live any more than 50 km away from any of those cities, your vote is worth exactly SQUAT, unless it can somehow be twisted to suit the needs of the afore-mentioned cabal. Why on earth does the province of PEI rate FOUR MPS in the house of commons, when they are already over-represented more than anyone west of the Ontario-Manitoba border? You can ask the same question to a greater or lesser extent of each province from Quebec eastward, and because that situation favours that Central Canadian lock on the actual power in this country, they're never going to do anything to change it. Democracy is supposed to be about EQUALITY, but in Kanada, everyone is equal, it's just that Quebec and Ontario are a little bit more equal, and the west is sick and tired of it.

Ah, here we have the winning post during Kate's absence.

Now is the time for each and every Canadian to vote Conservative, regardless of partisan or spectral orientation. Why? Simply put, if the Liberals are reelected, then all bets are off. Separatist sentiment in both Quebec and Alberta will really take off. The state will lose control of its messaging via the MSM and via fewer and fewer people believing anything they say at all, turning increasingly to the blognet. With the state fixated on its obsession with sex and with cynically appealing via a mathematical formula in which it carefully calculates exactly what will win whose votes and how in order to stay in power at all costs, including of the country itself, the danger cannot be ignored.

The country is far greater than any region, any party, any point on the spectrum from left to right and any one individual, including Paul Martin.

We could still be the greatest nation on the face of the earth, but not if we give up on it before all last opportunities have been exhausted, and, believe me, they haven't been- after all, we, the people right here and now on this and many other comments threads and reading the sites of the blognet, are doing something, realizing there's still some opportunities of which to take advantage. Remember, this is our country, and we sure as hell can do something smart, powerful, democratic and effective in one huge wave to save Canada from death at the hands of Paul Martin's Liberals.

It is not yet too late, despite how we may often feel. Remember, logic always ultimately triumphs over emotion. If that was not true, then communism would've won and taken control of the planet. Terrorism would've led to the Islamification of all nations. And, although the left has lately had some minor victories via cheating and ignoring democracy and the interests of Canadians, it will soon lose big time, if, of course, Canadians of all walks of life finally wake up and smell the coffee before next election day.

We must, must, must vote Conservative this time to save Canada. No ifs, ands or buts!

I am continuing to do what I can on The Canadian Sentinel:

http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com

OK, so now we're hearing that the number of seats allotted to PEI is part of the Liberal conspiracy to screw the west (the fact that Sir John A. signed off on that negotiation is besides the point.)

We are also expected to believe that Atlantic Canada LOVES Ontario/Quebec and exists for the sole purpose of propping up the Liberals (never mind the fact that many Tory MPs hail from there.)

What a relief to hear that you folks aren't paranoid or delusional;-)

Medntok . . The Liberals have ruined three generations of Maritimers by pimping the ordinary people into accepting token hand-outs like special EI conditions for the fishing industry. Meanwhile the Liberal's pay off their Prty insider buddies through ACOA and then these guys convince the ordinary Maritimers to vote Liberal to keep the state welfare gravy train rolling.
Welfare is welfare, the Maritimes accepts it

The money comes from the "have" provinces . . like Alberta. The resentment grows as the welfare depndency grows.

I'm delusional, paranoid and I have a sick heart. PM made me this way. I never thought this way during Chretins time. Paul Martin did this to me. Really this is all moot. If you ask anybody (other than people who actually are involved in politics) they simply don't care. This is the vast majority of people.

"Welfare is welfare, the Maritimes accepts it"

Not this Maritimer. I wholeheartedly reject the handouts. They only distort economic/entrepreneurial incentive and foster dependence amongst the right people in the right places to virtually guarantee the Libs a lock on a minimum # of seats each election.

And I'm certainly not enamored by the Central Canadian stranglehold on so much in the country.

I want to see the Maritimes be permitted/forced via tough-love to learn how to prosper all over again. There's no reason for the region not to be as strong economically as the West. We've got plenty of resources and even human capital to work with. The Liberal Party will NEVER allow this, however. Therefore, the Liberal Party of Paul Martin, or any other imbecile who manages to stack the deck in his leadership election favor, is no friend of Atlantic Canada.

Stephen Harper understands the cause of the current Maritime economic malaise. He's the only federal leader who does, and by a titanic margin. And he knows what the solutions are. That's important.

http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com

For "brianc' My question to you is why after 100 years does Alberta NOT have the things you say????????? you think this will happen in 10-20 years ,don't make me laugh it hasn't happened in 100 years!!!!

"Alberta bound, Alberta bound.
It's good to be Alberta bound!"

If you go, we are moving back home to Alberta, just to go with you:)

I am sensing momentum and it feels mighty good.

Remember, this is our country, and we sure as hell can do something smart, powerful, democratic and effective in one huge wave to save Canada from death at the hands of Paul Martin's Liberals.

It is not just the Liberals. During its transformation from Reform, to the Alliance, to the Conservative Party, the Conservatives jettisoned all of their democratic reform initiatives. Why? To appeal to eastern Canadian voters. The Conservatives do not even believe in a EEE senate anymore. They no longer support referendums, recall, or any other direct democracy measures. There is now a movement afoot in the Conservative Party to jettison its western Canadian leader, so that eastern Canadians will completely control the government and all opposition parties. (If you don't believe me, go to http://dehors-Harper-out.blogspot.com and look at all the good Quebec and Ontario conservatives trying to stick the knife in Harper.) Why are they doing it? To appeal to eastern Canadian voters.

There is no federal party that has the slightest interest in democratic reform of the Canadian federation. They all pay lip service to the idea, but do nothing. Paul Martin promised to slay the democratic deficit. He has done nothing. Jack Layton promised during the last campaign that democratic reform would be his price for propping up a minority Liberal government. He has blatantly broken this promise.

I say to you that the system cannot be changed because the people of eastern Canada like it just the way it is. If eastern Canadians really wanted reform, we would have it. They have the numbers to make it happen. The reason we don't have reform is because the eastern Canadian voters do not want it. Stop believing their worthless promises.

Eastern Canada's only real interest in Alberta is its oil, and the reason they support the Liberals and NDP is that they trust these parties to come up with confiscation schemes to get it. It is time for federalist Albertans to wake up to this obvious fact.

Having read all that Mentok has to say I have come to the conclusion that he/she is a closet Liberal. My hubby and I have just returned from a trip to P.E.I. and Cape Breton. These people are kept wholly in the dark as to Canadian politics across this nation. We could not find a National newspaper for the full two weeks that we were there!We tried everyday to find a National newspaper but were told over and over that maybe they would arrive such and such a date and to no avail.The only news source was a local paper or CBC, T.V. or radio, well we know about that don't we? Is it any wonder they never vote for the Conservatives ? So, Mentok how do you propose to get the Maritime provinces on side with western Canada?I can go on and shall, we chatted with a few of the people there and asked what are their main industries. Fishing and tourism we were told, well when you close up in October what do you do we asked? Well,we go on Employment Insurance they tell us. "We work hard for six months then we go on Employment Insurance for six months" WOW! Isn't that the life then! We wanted to say we work hard for 11 1/2 months then we get a couple of weeks holiday and come spend our money here and pay taxes so you can relax for six months!What a great life as long as you vote for a corrupt regime and others pay for you to do as you please the rest of the time!Is it any wonder that we want to separate from the corruption coming from the East?? Oh ,by the way,we can still visit the maritimes even if we are a separate country. The whole time we were there I already felt like I was visiting a different country. My hubby and I have traveled many places in the world and I felt like the Maritimes was just another country.

Eliza, you're a hard boiled egg. A lot of farmers out in Alberta also work like crazy for the spring/summer/early fall and sometimes get a winter position.

I'm the first to admit that Alberta would have made a better state than a province. I'm pretty ticked that Alberta and Saskchewan were purposely broken into 2 provinces when they became provinces since Laurier thought that they would be more manageable as smaller entities. We also didn't get our resource rights in 1905. However, I don't like the prospects of going it alone without the other western provinces. To export goods, we would need to negotiate with B.C (if still in Canada),go through the U.S., or fly it out.

My point however is that any party that doesn't want anything positive out of Canada WON'T get anything positive out of Canada. Still, the ASP may warrant my vote on election day.

Conservatives! Stop watering down your policy!

Ladies and gentlemen,

What pushed me over the edge? Two things:

The NEP. I went from averaging 12 working hours/day to 4 hours/month. My 1983 taxable income was $2,800. I was lucky, I was young and single but I knew of many people who lost their homes, business, even families due to financial constraints caused by federal political grandstanding that nearly shutdown an entire provincial economy.

Please note, I DON'T blame the East. I will just never allow that to happen again and if that means separation, so be it. For me, Carbon Tax or any other financial/power oppression tatic perpetrated by the feds against ME, because I am an Albertan, equals one more Alberta separtist.

The NEP woke me up but my personal "turning point" in 2002 was when I finally accepted Canada's true, and growing, socialist nature and it's unchangeable electoral balance of power (Quebec and TO). Socialism + taxation without representation causes me grave concern.

What I would like to see is Alberta single-handedly, selfishly change the rules of Confederation. Separation would be the last resort if the rest of the country rejects Alberta's initiatives.

Best to all.
Mike, Republic of Alberta.

My simple reason for being against separation is simple demographics. While Alberta may be disenfranchised today in a few decades, given the current growth rates seen in Alberta, the West is going to be running the whole show sooner than you expect. For those who doubt this look at the United States; while 40 to 50 years ago the Western states were pushed around by the central government now the center of gravity in American politics is clearly in the west and southwest. Canada was simply a few decades behind the US in their massive settlement of the western frontier, but if current growth rates (heck, even if they halve) persist then you will see the same pattern in Canada.

Ben

[quote]OK, so now we're hearing that the number of seats allotted to PEI is part of the Liberal conspiracy to screw the west (the fact that Sir John A. signed off on that negotiation is besides the point.)[/quote]

Obviously, Mentok, you're not getting it. PEI, with a population of 137,900, averages 1 MP for every 34,475 people in the province, while Alberta, with a population of 3,201,960, averages 1 MP for every 114,353 people in the province. Now, other than the fact that the LIEberals can count on those 4 PEI seats, what is it that makes the vote of a Prince Edward Islander worth 3.32 times as much as the vote of an Albertan? If this sort of over-representation was visible in a part of the country that DIDN'T favour the "natural governing party", you can bet your last adscammed nickel that Chretien, Martin, et al wouldn't waste a single precious second rectifying that situation. Those 3 extra LIEberal seats alone are more than what's keeping that weasel Martin hanging on by his fingernails, so do you really think he's concerned about seeing a TRUE representative democracy (ie. rep by pop) in this third-world dictatorship?

GG: During its transformation from Reform, to the Alliance, to the Conservative Party, the Conservatives jettisoned all of their democratic reform initiatives. Why? To appeal to eastern Canadian voters. The Conservatives do not even believe in a EEE senate anymore.

Actually, not so bad. From the Conservative web site,

7. Free Votes
A Conservative Government will restore democratic accountability in the House of Commons by allowing free votes. A Conservative Government will make all votes free, except for the budget and main estimates.

8. Supreme Court Judge Appointments
A Conservative Government will ensure that nominees to the Supreme Court of Canada will be ratified by a free vote in Parliament, after receiving the approval of the Justice Committee of the House of Commons.

9. Senate Reform
i) A Conservative Government will support the election of senators. The Conservative Party believes in an equal Senate to address the uneven distribution of Canada’s population and provide a balance to safeguard regional interests.
ii) Where the people of a province or territory by democratic election choose persons qualified to be appointed to the Senate (cough Alberta), a Conservative Government will fill any vacancy in the Senate for that province or territory from among those elected persons.

My turning point was June 23/05 when the NDP budget was passed with the "let's adjourn/let's not" stunt. Enough with the games already.

Brian C.,

I do support the Conservatives as a federal party, and will vote for them again next time. They are against the Kyoto accord (even though the Progressive Conservatives used to be for it). That is the ballot question for me.

Let me ask you these questions:

1. Why would the Conservatives be against an effective Senate? How can the Senate defend the regions from a Liberal government if it cannot block legislation?

2. Why are the Conservatives opposed to recall? If recall would have been on the books in 1987, don't you think that would have stopped the Mulroney government from taking the CF-18 contract away from Manitoba and giving it to Quebec?

Please folks give your heads a shake! As an ex member of the Canadian Army and a "small c" conservative I do not like the direction or present shape this country is in but can you imagine the small "tinpot" nation states that would form if Alberta/Quebec goes. You say the Canadian Forces are in bad shape now - can you imagine;the Alberta Defence Force(maybe an airborne regiment and a tank or two), the Quebec Departement de la Defence(the famous Royal 22nd Regiment plus one ship), the BC Navy (four rusty ships and a second hand sub - the other one is in the Acadian Navy). And what happens in Alberta when the oil runs out or the ppb tanks. I also do not believe that Quebec will ever separate as they get everything that they want from Canada now and our present cabinet and heads of crown corportations are mostly bilingual Quebecers. I still think Canada is a worthwhile notion but we must get rid of the Libranos$ and make some meaningful changes in our Laws, Defence, Health, etc and address the democratic deficit.

Alex Mills

Sigh! There really is no way out of these circular ideological arguments, is there?

First, finally and to repeat, I'm not about to defend my Conservative pedigree to anyone.

It always cracks me up whenever western populist / separatist types invoke the mantra of "democracy"...all the more so when people like SDC invoke "rep by pop."

Hate to break it to you folks, but we actually do have rep by pop in this country. The parts of the country with the highest population get the highest allotment of parliamentary seats. Not too tough to figure out. Just our bum luck that most of the country's population is in two provinces.

Are there anomalies? Sure, but those exist in every democratic country. Life's not perfect. Western firebrands are the first to attack PEI's special 140-yr-old deal when it comes to Commons seats, but they are always the first to defend PEI (incl comparing it to Rhode Island in the US) when the discussion turns to Senate reform (an idea, by the way, I entirely support.)

"Democracy" is not the right catch-phrase to use when talking about constitutional reform. Instead, entirely non-democratic notions like regional balance are what we should strive for, especially when it comes to reforming our dysfunctional upper house. Balancing straight rep by pop democracy against other political factors, like regionalism, is an entirely proper function for an upper house.

But then, of course, "regional balance" is so much less inflammatory and emotion-laden than saying "democracy".

This is the great hypocricy of western populism. Populists have turned Triple-E senate into an icon, yet that very concept would involve Alberta accepting PEI as an equal. I'm certainly not hearing anything on this board that sounds like that is a possibility.

Oh, yeah, and by the way...you Maritime haters might want to keep in mind that PEI has a Conservative provincial government and has, over the years, regularly elected Conservative MPs, as does the rest of Atlantic Canada.

Now that I've let that cat out of the bag, no doubt the tirades will begin that Maritime Conservatives are not "real" Conservatives.

This is the great sickness of Western populism and separatism. It is a culture of hate and exclusion that draws an ever smaller-and-smaller circle. We don't like Ontarians or Quebecers because they screw us around. We don't like Atlantic Canadians because they are all welfare bums. We don't like eastern or PC-background conservatives, because they are not conservative enough. We're not quite sure how we feel about BC, Saskatchewan or Manitoba, because they sometimes vote NDP. And don't even get us started about those pinkos in Edmonton.

So, you see, really, all you pathetic fools are really fighting for is some dinky little southern Alberta City-State Republic of Calgary. Well, aren't you the bold visionairies!

I'll stick with my big, diverse successful nation, with all its flaws, compromises and short-comings, thank you very much.

If you Alberta hypers are so concerned about "democracy", why don't you try cleaning up your own backyard first? One-party state, all power concentrated in the Premier's office,no throne speech debate, no budget debate, constant chipping away at the rights and privileges of the opposition, the legislature and the press gallery. Thank God at least its a Conservative government that seems relatively honest. But that doesn't excuse the constant, flagrant intolerable offences against democracy in that province.

Those in glass houses...

No I am not a member, but I do support separation.
Options for Alberta

1. Status quo - this is unacceptable. This nation will squander it’s wealth trying to maintain it’s socialist ideals and the dying industrial base in central Canada. We will be left with a firm grasp on an empty bag.

2. CPC elected - they will have to appeal to the same voters in Ontario that now elect Liberals. This will entail largely maintaining the status quo noted above. Just as Mulroney maintained Trudeau’s NEP from 1984 to 1986, Harper has promised to keep all of Martin’s reckless spending promises in place.

3. Firewall program – this has the best chance of both keeping Alberta in Canada while allowing Alberta to isolate it’s self from the damaging path that Canada is now on. This would involve more than exercising current provincial constitutional powers. It would require using the Clarity Act to strip individual federal powers from Ottawa that have been abused in the past. Top on that list would be all forms of revenue generation, taxes, fees, and borrowed money, replacing it with a direct provincial transfer to the feds.

4. Complete Independence – realistically Canadians would reject Option 3. This would set the stage for independence. The strength of options 3 and 4 taken together is that Alberta can state the type of nation it wishes to be part of and Canadians can decide by accepting or rejecting that vision whether that nation would be called Canada or the Republic of Alberta. This will allow us to restate separation as what we are running too instead of what we are running from.

5. Coalition of western provinces – although desirable this is not realistic as a condition of independence. The other 3 provinces will not leave Canada until Alberta goes it alone for a few years.

6. Join USA – USA would not entertain this for at least a decade, as they would not what to be seen as destabilizing Canada. Even then counting on their good graces would be foolish. We would also be exchanging one remote government for another. If we chose independence it must be with a clear understanding that we will be committed to going it alone.

Salvage, the wise, had more guts than I saying it as bluntly as he did. But the truth is exactly as he says and I have presented the many arguments in past comments that separtist dreamers would overlook. 73s TG He's second from top.

Just so you folks know it is estimated that the tar sands in Alberta hold between 800 billion to 2.5 trillion (yup that's a t) barrels of Oil.
May take awhile to go through that.

I am an Alberta separatist. There are a number of reasons for this.

I remember very well the National Energy Program. It was absolutely devastating. And now the feds are bringing in the Kyoto tax grab, which will only apply to Alberta.

Then there was: the CF18 contract; the continual snubbing of the senators that Alberta elects (other than the late Stan Waters, thanks to Brian Mulroney); Chretien's comment about how Albertans are "different" and how he didn't like dealing with us; Pierre Trudeau's middle finger; the constant portrayal of Albertans as hayseeds and rubes by the Ontario media ("Hi, I'm Mike, from Canmore..."); the equalization payments that completely wipe out all the oil royalties; the stupid anti-Americanism in the rest of the country (talk about biting the hand that feeds you); the gutting of the Canadian military (it is supposed to be "speak softly and carry a big stick" not "speak loudly and carry a wet noodle"); waiting for the polls to close at 8 pm, and before the first ballot in Alberta is counted, seeing Lloyd Robertson say "we have a new Liberal government" (except for the last election); the Crow Rate; the wildly disproportionate representation in the House of Commons, to go with the disproportionate representation in the Senate; seeing Ontario elect the Liberals no matter how corrupt they are, because the Liberals are not "scary westerners".

But the straw that broke the camel's back: seeing farmers jailed for the heinous crime of selling their own grain, a law which applies only to Western farmers. When that happened, I realized that the reforms that we had tried to bring to Canada were never going to happen; the deck is stacked and the dealer is crooked.

A few commentors above have asked: "what happens when the oil runs out?" The answer is: nothing. Albertans don't get that revenue. Equalization payments take all of that revenue away, plus $900 million on top of that. The oil will run out whether Alberta separates or not, but if Alberta goes, then at least that money will stay in Alberta rather than being frittered away by Ottawa.

And the money is frittered away: on things like Health care (which is not a federal jurisdiction) rather than the military (which is federal jurisdiction); on antisocial pet projects like same-sex marriage or the gun registry, rather than on social issues like actually treating criminals as criminals; and on greasing the palms of friends of the government rather than prudent financial management of the public purse.

I saw the writing on the wall. Nothing will change for as long as Albertans are willing to be slaves to Ottawa.

My people: remember, we still have an opportunity coming up to change things for the better. Vote Conservative. Period.

Give Stephen Harper a fair chance; we truly conservative-oriented folk haven't had our kick at the can in so long, it could be that's the reason Canada's not working. Yup, Liberal rule is the problem. Conservative captaincy could very well be the cure for what ails this vast nation with so much to offer if only we can unleash its incredible potential (as long as Liberals are not causing any more trouble).

Of course, Albertans already vote Conservative en masse, so the message must be loudly trumpeted to the rest of Canada like never before:

Liberal Party of Canada = Enemy of Canada.

End Liberal tyranny: Sic semper tyrannis!

Open up a whole new era and a whole new Canada. Because it's possible.

Vote Conservative to save Canada. Period!

New PIPA poll - September 29, 2005: AMERICANS ON PROMOTING DEMOCRACY:

Americans asked to rate on a scale of zero to 10 "how democratic" the U.S. government was, with 10 meaning "completely democratic," the mean response was only 6.2, the same as Sweden and lower than ratings for Canada (7.1) and Britain (6.8).

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/FP_MakingProcess/Democratization_Sep05/Democratization_Sep09_rpt_revised.pdf

I'm from BC and I support Alberta seperation I just ask that you take us with you. Don't kid yourselves the Consertavies cannot save Canada. Canada does not want to be saved. The Consertaves had 8 years to do something and all they did was pad their own bank rolls. When Canada elected a known liar and thief 28 Jun 04 Canada died. RIP.

If you ever want a fool-proof argument against the case that Alberta's oil is a geographical fluke I've got one for you. What is the difference between Alberta happening to be located over oil and Southern Ontario being within a days drive of 150 million Americans? Nothing! Every region has its comparative geographical advantage and they should be expected to us it, and I 100% promise that the value extracted by the Ontario government from revenues created by those hundreds of millions of Americans in their backyard greatly exceeds the revenues extracted by the Alberta government from oil. But how do we get that message across?

Ben

"My people: remember, we still have an opportunity coming up to change things for the better. Vote Conservative."

"Vote Conservative to save Canada. Period!"

This will not change the current socialist path Canada is on. To get elected Harper and the CPC will have to feed the election monster in Ontario and Quebec money. He has already promised to honor Martin’s vote buying spree from this summer. This for me is when I realized that we had failed as a nation. We are no longer being left a choice. Choosing between Liberal and Liberal light(CPC) is not a choice.

What pushed me from the Progressive Conservative Party to the Reform Party was Mulroney keeping the NEP in place for 2 years after he was elected. What is pushing me to the separatist fold is the realization that Harper must promise not to change the Liberal direction if he wants to be elected. Friedrich Hayek’s dedication in his book The Road to Serfdom “To the socialists in all parties” applies to the current Canada.

The western provinces need to stick together on this. As a country, SK, MB, AB, and BC would be an economic powerhouse. We would be truly one of the richest nations in the world. We could adopt good policies like EEE Senate and a combination of private and public health care modelled upon the best systems in the world. We need to stay together because we will boom during the oil production craze that is currently beginning but we will also boom when oil is completely gone due to the vast amount of uranium present in our regions. We could actually legislate the size of government as a percentage of the population and we could lower taxes! What a crazy thought. We could have our own environmental programs (not Kyoto) and we could support a military the way it should be supported. I am all for western separation and I will do all in my power to see that it happens soon - before we are all bled dry.

"...I'd love to separate from Ottawa, the GTA and that JJM clown who sits on his Ivory Tower / Throne (also known as a toilet)."

Thank you for your kind remarks, Morris.

I was very impressed that you were also considerate enough not to waste too much space in this thread with your puerile comments.

"The western provinces need to stick together on this. As a country, SK, MB, AB, and BC would be an economic powerhouse."

Yes it would be Kim M, but SK, MB, and BC will not have the stomach for separation until Alberta proves that it is viable by going it alone for at least 2 years. Alberta must be willing to go it alone.

As well SK and MB strongly support socialism with BC being split 50/50, this would tend to cause the same problems we currently have with Canada. Including BC would have the obvious advantage of port access. The case for including SK and MB is tenuous unless they change their political culture.

[quote]It always cracks me up whenever western populist / separatist types invoke the mantra of "democracy"...all the more so when people like SDC invoke "rep by pop."

Hate to break it to you folks, but we actually do have rep by pop in this country. The parts of the country with the highest population get the highest allotment of parliamentary seats. Not too tough to figure out. Just our bum luck that most of the country's population is in two provinces.
[/quote]

And, once again, Mentok manages to avoid the obvious while studying the inside of his colon. More than 200 years ago, even those dastardly Americans realized that a fair balance has to be struck between "every person's vote counts" and a "tyranny of the majority", but Kanada is still limping along with a system that is SO buggered up that even the British don't use the same system they hung around our necks. By having two elected, equal, and effective houses of government (one rep by pop, one rep by state), the US strikes what seems to be an eminently fair balance, but I'm sure that would be "too American" for our "conservative" writer Mentok. Just as it wouldn't be fair for California to shove its wishes down the throat of every other state in the US, how can you consider it to be "fair" for Ontario and Quebec to shove their wishes down the throats of the almost 40% of Canadians who don't live in EITHER of those provinces? Of course not, and I SEE this as an ONTARIAN. But, since our senate is nothing more than a retirement home for political hacks, and a rubber-stamp formality for what Central Canada wants, any hope for an equitable arrangement for the west has long since passed. After the west goes, Ontario will sink under the weight of trying to support itself AND Quebec AND the Maritimes, and the only ones they will have to blame are themselves. :-)

JJM at 12:23PM.
Puerile? Wasn't it you who said: "But of course you are no better or worse than any other separatist, an Albertan Tweedledum to a Québécois Tweedledee.

You are peas of a pod; both whining brats who always want their own way regardless"

Sorry boyo, but if you're going to start insulting people on this thread, be prepared to get the same back. Granted, some of the hardcore types here aren't much better, but if you aren't going to rise above them then quit complaining!

As I said, it isn't that I hate Canada, I just hate what Canada has become and is becoming. I do blame that primarily on the federal Lieberal Party and the people that continue to elect them. I just can't fathom why Ontario continues to vote for such corruption! Ontario doesn't have to vote for the Conservatives, just anyone except for a grossly corrupt LIEberal Party!

Given the hostile level of some of the separatist wingnuttery in here, it's no surprise why moderate conservatives are finding comfort in the arms of the Liberal Party. No surprise at all.

Morris, you say you don't understand why Ontarians keep voting for the Libs. The answer seems to me fairly obvious. I am a lifelong Conservative. My personal politics lean libertarian: socially liberal, fiscally conservative. I can tell you some of the things that sensible people in Ontario tell me. Oh, yes, I also read what the typists on the internet blogs write when they're frothing at the mouth, but I mean geniune everyday sensible conservatives that I talk with everyday in Ontario. They know that their lives aren't perfect. And they know things can be better. But they are also not unconscious to the fact that compared to most other nations in the world -- yes, including the United States of America that has the fattest borrow & spend government in history and rampant cronyism and corruption that makes anything the Liberals do look utterly trivial -- that Canadians should be complaining the least. Most Ontarians are also well aware that if Stephen Harper had been our PM three years ago, we'd be knee-deep in a Mesopotamian quagmire right now. The biggest decision a PM can ever make is whether to send a nation to war, and our PM is proven to have made the correct call. Above this, my conservative friends and family members hear bitter separatist rhetoric like some of the childish ignorant garbage in this newsthread and think, y'know, this is a volatile and dangerous party. So when they go into a voting booth, they play it "conservative" -- they play it safe and vote Liberal. You need to understand that ideological fanaticism scares people on your own side.

It has been pointed out that a leader is needed to drive forward the separation of Alberta. The same holds true for separating all of the West from from the dysfunctional Confederation centered around Upper/Lower Canada, and Alberta IS already that leader. I do support Alberta Separation and want to see the same for Saskatchewan. It is illuminating to see that only one riding in Saskatachewan did not vote Conservative Federally (Ralph Goodales Wascana) and Provincially the NDP had great trouble getting elected outside of the cities. This reflects what is true for the entire Confederation, that 'fly-over country' votes conservative but is unable to garner sufficient support in the urban/city ridings with, in the case of Sask., the notable exception of Federal voting patterns. What this says to me is that for the same reasons that keep people in the cities, that is; money and the security of a socialist safety-net, change scares the hell out of most people but not people who choose to live in fly-over country. The cherished qualities of independence and self-reliance exist outside the urban areas and conflict directly with the FUD of urban voters; witness Ontario (and more specifically the GTA) clinging to the Liberals and their fellow travellers the NDP, like a stained security blanket.

It is past time for change. Radical change.

The problem is the Liberal Party enacted the legislation to make Provincial separation an option.

Rather than fix the inequitys and mistakes Liberals believe it is OK to quit the country.

Dumb and Crazy.

IMO, the breakup has all the potential for disaster.

That would be a BIG step in the right direction.

Mentok wrote:

Hate to break it to you folks, but we actually do have rep by pop in this country. The parts of the country with the highest population get the highest allotment of parliamentary seats. Not too tough to figure out. Just our bum luck that most of the country's population is in two provinces.

Actually, it is not that simple. Quebec receives an additional 7 seats over and above what they are entitled to on a representation by population basis. They are the only large province to receive this. Ontario, Alberta, and BC receive no additional seats.

This is the great hypocricy of western populism. Populists have turned Triple-E senate into an icon, yet that very concept would involve Alberta accepting PEI as an equal. I'm certainly not hearing anything on this board that sounds like that is a possibility.

I'm an Albertan. I have always believed in a EEE senate. The Reform party supported a EEE senate. It was overwhelmly supported in Alberta. The Canadian Alliance supported a EEE senate. It was overwhelmingly supported in Alberta. Don Getty, the former premier of Alberta, threatened to walk out of Meech Lake if it did not include a EEE senate.

I realize that this would give Atlantic Canada a lot more clout than it has now. I have no problem with that. WTF are you talking about? Please provide a link to any Alberta politician who has ever said that any of the Atlantic provinces should not be treated equally to Alberta. It is Quebec and Ontario that is opposed to a EEE senate, not Alberta.

Oh, yeah, and by the way...you Maritime haters might want to keep in mind that PEI has a Conservative provincial government and has, over the years, regularly elected Conservative MPs, as does the rest of Atlantic Canada.

If you were to talk to some of the tens of thousands of Atlantic Canadians that live in Alberta, you would find that there are very few "Maritime haters" in the province. At the same time, it is only correct to point out that the EI program is a regional transfer program, and that Quebec and the maritimes receive more benefits, for less weeks of work, etc. It is the Liberal Party of Canada, dominated by Ontario and Quebec Liberals that set this system up.

This is the great sickness of Western populism and separatism. It is a culture of hate and exclusion that draws an ever smaller-and-smaller circle. We don't like Ontarians or Quebecers because they screw us around. We don't like Atlantic Canadians because they are all welfare bums. We don't like eastern or PC-background conservatives, because they are not conservative enough. We're not quite sure how we feel about BC, Saskatchewan or Manitoba, because they sometimes vote NDP. And don't even get us started about those pinkos in Edmonton.

So, you see, really, all you pathetic fools are really fighting for is some dinky little southern Alberta City-State Republic of Calgary. Well, aren't you the bold visionairies!

I'll stick with my big, diverse successful nation, with all its flaws, compromises and short-comings, thank you very much.

What jibberish. Independence is about controlling our own public policy, and being the masters in our own house. I could care less about what the rest of Canada thinks of Alberta or Albertans. I live here, and know what a great place it is. Just about all small countries in the western world that have chosen to be independent have never lived to regret it. Look at Iceland, New Zealand, Australia or Ireland.

On the other hand, look at Newfoundland. They gave up their country, and control of all their resources, for minimal social benefits. Has Newfoundland prospered in Canada? Bigger isn't necessarily better.

If you Alberta hypers are so concerned about "democracy", why don't you try cleaning up your own backyard first? One-party state, all power concentrated in the Premier's office,no throne speech debate, no budget debate, constant chipping away at the rights and privileges of the opposition, the legislature and the press gallery. Thank God at least its a Conservative government that seems relatively honest. But that doesn't excuse the constant, flagrant intolerable offences against democracy in that province.

The problems with Alberta's democracy all stem from the fact that we are a subordinated province within Canada. When I go to the polling booth, I am solely concerned with which party will defend Alberta's interests best in a hostile confederation full of people and politicians that want to confiscate Alberta's resources. Realistically, I have a choice between a sabre-rattling Tory, who I can expect will minimally stand up for the province, or a quisling Alberta Liberal, who is in politics to take orders from Ottawa, and hopefully get a patronage appointment from them for being a good sycophant. If we were a separate country, the Alberta Liberals would actually transform into a real political party that was interested in representing and building Alberta, rather than being good soldiers for Ottawa. I would be very happy to have that choice.

Well, they say that consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, so on that basis at least we can't call SDC small-minded.

At his September 29, 2005 10:23 PM post, SDC says what this country needs (and the Liberals prevent) is "a TRUE representative democracy (ie. rep by pop)"

Confronted with the awful fact that the Canadian parliament actually is, more or less, rep by pop, he changes gears at September 30, 2005 12:46 PM and says he now thinks what the country needs is an American-style Senate to avoid "Ontario and Quebec [shoving]their wishes down the throats of the almost 40% of Canadians who don't live in EITHER of those provinces."

Well guess what, SDC? I agree with you. I fact, I advocated senate reform in my last message.

The single greatest problem in the governance of this country is that archaic upper house leaves us in a perpetual state where the regions do not buy into national legislation.

I'll even do you one better. I think a reformed Senate should be based around provincial political parties, not federal ones. Like this: every prov gets 10 seats, elected by a proportional rep system at the time of a provincial election. Seats allotted roughly proportionally according to how the party does provincially (e.g. here in SK, where parties are evenly split, NDP would get 5, right-leaning SaskParty would get 5.)

This way, not only every province would have to buy into the federal legislative process, but every party in every province would too.

Plus imagine the healthy horse-trading that would go on. Provincial government wants a particular piece of federal legislation to go through, so they go to the provincial opposition and say "OK, look, we'll give you that provincial tax cut you want if you can talk your Senators into voting for this fed legislation we want."

But no matter what model of Senate reform you like, Alberta would still be outvoted by provinces who might occasionally feel envious. So, if you had a triple-E Senate and Alberta still got "screwed", would you then be team players and accept it, or would you find some other hobby-horse of alleged unfairness?

Democracy will last until the 51 % realize they can use the ballot box to take money from the 49 %.
The size of government matters more than which party is elected. The spoils of the ballot box need to be reduced.

“But no