September 16, 2005

Blair's "Brutal Honesty" On Kyoto

James Pinkerton, Tech Central Station;

Kyoto Treaty RIP. That's not the headline in any newspaper this morning emerging from the first day of the Clinton Global Initiative, but it could have been -- and should have been.
Onstage with former president Bill Clinton at a midtown Manhattan hotel ballroom, British Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was going to speak with "brutal honesty" about Kyoto and global warming, and he did. And Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had some blunt talk, too.
Blair, a longtime supporter of the Kyoto treaty, further prefaced his remarks by noting, "My thinking has changed in the past three or four years." So what does he think now? "No country, he declared, "is going to cut its growth." That is, no country is going to allow the Kyoto treaty, or any other such global-warming treaty, to crimp -- some say cripple -- its economy.
Looking ahead to future climate-change negotiations, Blair said of such fast-growing countries as India and China, "They're not going to start negotiating another treaty like Kyoto." India and China, of course, weren't covered by Kyoto in the first place, which was one of the fatal flaws in the treaty. But now Blair is acknowledging the obvious: that after the current Kyoto treaty -- which the US never acceded to -- expires in 2012, there's not going to be another worldwide deal like it.
So what will happen instead? Blair answered: "What countries will do is work together to develop the science and technology….There is no way that we are going to tackle this problem unless we develop the science and technology to do it." Bingo! That's what eco-realists have been saying all along, of course -- that the only feasible way to deal with the issue of greenhouse gases and global warming is through technological breakthroughs, not draconian cutbacks.

Blair concluded with a rhetorical question-and-answer: "How do we move forward, post- Kyoto? It can only be done by the major players coming together and pooling their resources, to find their way to come together."
Interestingly, these words from Blair, addressing an audience of a thousand at the Sheraton just a few blocks north of Times Square, failed to get any pickup in the media. Even The New York Times, published just down the street, ran a story that dwelt on the star power in the room, including King Abdullah of Jordan, Jesse Jackson, and George Stephanopoulos. "Isn't this awesome?" said one participant, and those words seemed to reflect fully the Times' take on the event.

H/T to Maz2 in the comments.

Posted by Kate at September 16, 2005 2:14 PM

Blair blasts Kyoto from ABFREEDOM
If it wasn't for Kate at SDA, we probably wouldn't have heard about it. The local MSM would never bring it to our attention. Thanks Kate. [Read More]

Tracked on September 16, 2005 9:31 PM


What makes this renunciation of the validity of Kyoto economics is the fact it was stated on stage along side Moe Strong's rumored replacement.

Looks like the dominos are falling on the global carbon commodity market trading scam....I bet the global warming profiteers are frantic for a rush of pro Kyoto scoldings of Blair ( and the banal Kyoto talking points BS) published in all the usual MSM suspects.

How to go Tony, your my kind of socialist.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at September 16, 2005 2:24 PM

Odds on the Liberal Party of Canada's seeing reason?

Two things one must say about Tony Blair: not only does he have a brain, but he also uses it from time-to-time. A hint to PM Martin.

Even if there is a serious global warming problem caused my human activities, Kyoto will not solve it and, as Blair says, there will be no Kyoto II. So let's start thinking instead of ideologizing.


Posted by: Mark Collins at September 16, 2005 2:38 PM

It seems that Indur M. Goklany, is a current member of the Bush administration, who on Wednesday published a paper (posted on SLA earlier) arguing among other things that “global warming is unlikely to be the most important environmental problem facing the world, at least for most of the remainder of this century.”

Posted by: steve at September 16, 2005 2:45 PM

Even though Blair has the EU chair,for the moment, I don't believe he can withdraw from the treaty without a corresponding act from either the UK Parliament or, for that matter, the EU Assembly. The Green Party on the continent would probably drop into apoplyctic seizures at any proposed action in this direction, and thereby holding any government in a blocking motion at the EU. Maybe again, I'm just stating the obvious.

This makes me want to drive my truck in some wetlands. a lot.

Posted by: Porter at September 16, 2005 2:49 PM

Man is this good news.

So what will happen [without Kyoto]? Blair answered:"What countries will do is work together to develop the science and technology….There is no way that we are going to tackle this problem unless we develop the science and technology to do it." That is right on. And that is not what the socialists want to hear. I wonder what Strong and his buddies at Power Corp. and the UN are saying now?

Way to go Blair.

Posted by: John Crittenden at September 16, 2005 2:50 PM

I can't spell.


Please insert where the dummy made up the other word.

Thank you

Posted by: Porter at September 16, 2005 2:56 PM

"Even if there is a serious global warming problem caused my human activities, Kyoto will not solve it and, as Blair says, there will be no Kyoto II. So let's start thinking instead of ideologizing."

Now, I don't want to point fingers at any individual here in this forum since I don't know how your own personal views have changed over time on this, but it seems to me that there is a huge pendulum switch in the thinking of the right just to make a statement like that. I do try hard to avoid using that patheticly broad brush stroke when describing someone's POV, but admit it: It has taken up until now for the right - no, let's be accurate, the numbers are still low - a very few on the right to concede that there even is global warming, let alone global warming caused by human activity, despite widespread (I'll avoid saying "vast majority" because that seems offensive to many here) scientific conclusions (I'll avoid saying "consensus" for the same reason) as to (1) the existence of global warming, whatever the cause and (2) the human cause of that warming, even before it became cause celebre for environmentalists. So pardon me while I do a little victory dance because the first step in solving a problem is admitting that there even is a problem. Ideology does finally crumple over time to undeniable facts.

Now, with all of our heads well out of the sand, who cares about who has been correct all these years and who has been saying there is no problem. One generalization I have made about politics since undergrad days was that the left was always pretty good at critical analysis of the problems in our world, opening our eyes to problems to which we were blind or found easier to ignore, but they've just never been terribly good at coming up with reasonable, sustainable, realistic solutions. So Blair's speech, the reception of Blair's speech by people on the right, and stories like the one Kate passed along to us yesterday, are all very good news and very promising.

Serious thinkers and do-ers on the right are maybe, kinda possibly realizing that there is a real problem and if nothing is done then the ramifications will be catastrophic; and serious thinkers and do-ers on the left and middle are maybe, kinda possibly realizing that being right about the existence of a problem is only a start.

We aren't all sitting at the same table yet, but at least we are all realizing that we've all got to eat.


Posted by: TB at September 16, 2005 3:42 PM

TB: Very good.

But if there will be sustained global warming (I am not yet convinced, though wavering) and if the major causes are not man-made (still I think most likely) then we are in real trouble.


Posted by: Mark Collins at September 16, 2005 3:54 PM

Cerberus, it must be a burden to carry around that much knowledge and 'smarts' all day long. You're welcome to come on over here and dump your load every once in awhile though. We don't mind it at all. It's easy to ignore some people.

Posted by: John Crittenden at September 16, 2005 3:56 PM

Pardon me while I go outside and dance in the streets!

Now that we can finally inter the bloated corpse known as Kyoto, I shudder to think our feeeble federal government will still plow blindly forward in their quest to further penalize us for having the audacity to turn up the thermostats in order to prevent the water in our commodes from freezing this winter.

Be warned that there WILL BE massive and fraudulent grants handed out to Librano friendly companies eager to jump on the Mommy Earth bandwagon the rest of the world bailed from.

Has anyone else ever wondered (assuming for a moment that CO2 is as "toxic" as the frothing rabid lefties claim) how much CO2 has been pumped into the air thanks to the Pratt & Whitney turbofans slung beneath the wings of the Air Canada jet, ferrying David Suzuki across the country telling the regular folk how evil we are to use fossil fuels?

Posted by: Eskimo at September 16, 2005 4:06 PM

So finally, the Global Warming King is seen to have no clothes. Excellent news.

It was a crock of shit to begin with, so better late than never that it is getting a double tab to the head.

Now maybe we can get on with solving some real environmental problems. But we'll need earplugs for awhile because the screams and gnashing of teeth from all the Lefties, nutjobs and environmental whackos will be just awful for the foreseeable future.

Posted by: Fred at September 16, 2005 4:54 PM

Martin will plough on because Layton and Duceppe will force him to. Layton has already made it clear he's going to withdraw support if corporate tax cuts go ahead. The conservatives would probably prop up the Libs if the feds backed out; but they might insist on a complete rewrite of a made-in-Canada son-of-Kyoto.

Posted by: Iron Lady at September 16, 2005 5:16 PM

"I do try hard to avoid using that patheticly broad brush stroke when describing someone's POV, but admit it: It has taken up until now for the right - no, let's be accurate, the numbers are still low - a very few on the right to concede that there even is global warming"

At the risk of being as obliquely condemnatory as someone who would ascribe denial of climate change to the so-called collective "right", I have to say that that sentiment is seething with narrow minded sanctimony. Objective commentary on the Kyoto theory of fixing blame ( there's that moonbat blame game again) for warming trends to either CO2 or man-made weather trends is what was always at debate and is also questioned by the largest part of the scientific community.

Objective commentary has always attacked the wisdom of assuming greenhouse gas to be the cause or cure of a climate trends that may or not be a spike in the long term trending...they felt it was the height of idiocy to turn this theory into a government policy that is essentially economic in nature and stands to destroy economic growth and national competitive advantage ....over a theory of man made weather changes. I don't think arguing over whether global climate changes was ever part of the debate..who is it that really denies the ice ages and tropical epochs before an SUV was ever present?...climate changes; it gets hot or cold dependant on many factors,,many relative to solar activities and photon belts, some relevant to catastrophic events like meteors....the debate has always been over whether man made activity effects this to any noticeable degree and whether Co2 even plays a significant roll...then there is the obvious folly of ruining our economy in a hysterical rush to feed the con man's theory that taxing co2 and buying carbon credits from 3rd world communist nations will effect the environment at all...except to make a lot of unscrupulous carbon dioxide credit salesmen rich while we do what we have been doing anyway and watch our economy tank while our competitors get a free ride advantage.

I think Blair expressed it far more succinctly...and no, I would not consider him to be one of the collective "right" who the moonbat fringe would accuse of denying climate change.

It appears by demonstrable means that the LEFT are now aware that the bat guano they swallowed in Kyoto theory and economic cure is, in rational retrospect, toxic to their economies....and that stark admission from a socialist like Blair. I can see the suicide rates in the global Moonbat kingdom rising with this factual eventuality.

Posted by: WL Mackenzie Redux at September 16, 2005 5:30 PM

Hmm. Maybe we could send our own list to Blair and just let him handle it. If he could arange to get rid of the gun registration along with Kyoto, and offer his troops for our defence, it may not matter if the CPC gets in or not. Between Blair and Bush I feel kinda safe these days.

Posted by: John Crittenden at September 16, 2005 5:36 PM

I don't know if he's going to renege on Kyoto, but Martin was openly critical of the U.N. at the recent Summit.

I believe his words were:

"Make no mistake: the U.N. needs reform."

Yeah, I almost choked too.

Posted by: kennethk at September 16, 2005 5:40 PM

Look at Cerberus lie. Until now there has been no evidence of global warming. You can't exactly deny something that can't be shown to be happening in the first place. If it's happening now, great. One less thing to argue over. And we are much better off in a warming world than in a world on its back into the ice age - which is the only alternative.

Of course, the global warming that has been demonstrated is completely inconsistent with all greenhouse gas warming theories hypothesised in the last fifteen years. So the actual evidence of global warming refutes the argument that human activity has anything to do with it.

Since Cerberus and his ilk have been insisting, falsely, for about fifteen years now that the world was getting much warmer than it is, and that they knew exactly what was causing it and how it could be stopped, it would be wise to exclude them from any discussion of the real global warming issue. They have no knowledge and no understanding of it. They just lie.

Posted by: ebt at September 16, 2005 5:41 PM

Actually there is a ton of evidence that the Earth warms and cools down. Always has, likely always will. Its natural. Its normal. Its a good thing.

10,000 years ago, if you lived just about anywhere in Canada, you'd be under about 2 miles ice. 20,000 years ago it was warmer than today. For that matter 600 years ago it was warmer than it is today. The planet doesn't warm up/ cool down in a linear fashion.

The stupidity of Kyoto was the mankind was causing global warming by CO2 emmissions argument.

Canada signed up because someone (aka David Anderson) whispered in Chretien's ear that that big Ice Storm was caused by global warming.

Chretien, with his impecable political instincts for a pure motherhood issue that would be his legacy . . ."I saved us from the weather" signed us up.


Bet his science grades in school were top notch too.

David Suzuki pushed the Kyoto crap because it suited his belief system of humans are bad. Kyoto/Global Warming/The sky is falling was a HUGE fundraiser for the Champagne Socialists in the Tree Hugging movement. The flag should have gone up on Suzuki - he is a BIOLOGIST, doesn't have a Climatology or Geomorphology bone on his body or ounce of common sense in his head.

But the truth will set us free

Posted by: Fred at September 16, 2005 5:55 PM

Once again, ebt, you make a bunch of assertions without giving any evidence to back them up, and in the same breath you accuse others of having no evidence. Lately you have started calling people liars. Why? Are you trying to scare off anyone who is actually willing to discuss "the real global warming issue"? Good luck. The truth is, it takes a lot of courage to look at the evidence. People with less courage prefer to either hope that big government can fix the problem, or hope that there is no problem at all.

Kudos to Blair for having the courage to admit that there is no "let's-all-be-nice" fix for this one.

Posted by: Laura at September 16, 2005 5:59 PM

Rex Murphy wrote, in "Selling something, Dr. Suzuki?", in the Globe and Mail on 2002-09-28:
"Ratifying the Koyoto Protocol is a real debate, has real costs, is a mix of guesses, best estimates and conflicting claims, with real consequences whichever way it's decided. For the sake of the debate, let's lay off the science unless it is science."

Posted by: Tony at September 16, 2005 6:02 PM

While Kyoto may be in it's death throes it should be remembered by Albertan's that McGuinty is calling for an increase in the money Ontario receives back from Ottawa in transfer payments, and no cuts in the Federal Kleptocracy or programs. The difference is going to come from somewhere.

I'm very happy the Kyoto Protocal seems to be unravelling like a cheap sweater though.

Posted by: Speller at September 16, 2005 6:18 PM

Cerberus sounds like the type that dresses up for special occasions like Halloween and the summer solstice with a bent pointy hat and a straw broom. Maybe through a blue smoky haze wafting up from his solar powered cauldron he gets giggly visions of anti-Kyoto neocons doing a 180 degree goose-step turn towards the pro-global warming side.

Whatever Cerebus actually fantasizes about, the real underlying basis for anti-Kyoto sentiments is unchanged: It's bad science and it's wrong to base harmful economic policy on bad science. The time has come to begin writing cheques to Russia and government leaders are nervous. Global warming predictions (and long term weather forecasting as a whole) are still all over the map while scientific arguments that show neglible influence due to human activity have grown stronger.

It's easy to realize that no responsible politician will sign those cheques now (and perhaps never) and enact measures that jeopardize real economic growth.

It's not about people wanting to harm the environment. Most of us want to make a better world for everyone. It's about spending our hard efforts in areas that make a difference without destroying economies, liberties and opportunities. Bad policy supported by bad science and excitable pointy hatted socialists isn't the way to that better world.

Posted by: Martin B. at September 16, 2005 6:50 PM

A bit off topic but related to nervous cheque writing government leaders: Anyone catch Bob Geldof's scathing antics on CBC radio this morning complaining about world leaders like PMPM for not bucking up and sending billions more to help out starving African dictators?

Again like the environment...what's the best way to help? Give dictators tons of money with the hope that some of it gets through or work hard to encourage the growth of African democracies where the African poor actually have a voice and aid can be fairly distributed.

Posted by: Martin B. at September 16, 2005 7:18 PM

Ya know the real scary thing in this debate neither side has it right.

the left is blind to the facts about climate change, and the potential for international treatys to actually effect change.

the right is blind to the fact that Climate change and Co2 reductions in the long term are critical in maintaining Canada's international competitive edge.

Well managed companies have recognized that cutting Co2 emissions actaully makes a good business. Co2 comes primarly from burning hydrocarbons.. anyone looked at the cost of hydrocarbon based fuel recently???

it will be very interesting to see if the companies complaining about Kyoto targets are going to be able to compete with companies that do take a more proactive approach.

Kyoto is a sideshow clouding up the REAL debate which is the supply/demand market of providing the energy to power society into the next century. And any political bullshit from Bush, Blair or Martin isn't going to make that problem go away... just think about that the next time you fill up your SUV...

Posted by: Sierra at September 16, 2005 7:58 PM

The Kyoto protocol is nothing about reducing CO2. It is merely a wealth transfer or welfare from the 1st world to the 3rd world. China and India are excluded from Kyoto. The 1st world pays the 3rd world for the right to keep polluting.
Pollution in China and India is much worse than pollution elsewhere. Over 2 billion people are excluded from Kyoto, not to mention the US who had the balls to not sign on.
It is as simple as it not being in anyway a workable, feasible or effective plan.
The usual nutters in the environmental movement jumped on board because it sounded good at first glance.

Posted by: enough at September 16, 2005 8:18 PM

Count on Paul Martin not to give up on Kyoto. For one thing,according to a story in this weeks Western Standard, its the key for the Feds to unlock the vault to Alberta's riches.

Posted by: MikeP at September 16, 2005 8:25 PM

Unlock the vault and keep me warm. It will happen.

Posted by: steve at September 16, 2005 8:51 PM

Rest assured, Sierra, we're working on it. Just be aware that "it" isn't anthropogenic carbon dioxide generation (since there's no credible evidence that's relevant), "it" is bringing modern infrastructure and technology to all humans (since there's credible evidence that's relevant).

For example, the greatest enablers of equality upon principle for women have been electrictity, the cash economy, and bio-reproductive technologies. None of those were invented by novelists (not that Sierra was suggesting they were).

Posted by: Tony at September 16, 2005 8:59 PM

My friends, ahem:

Up to 50 years ago there were FOREST FIRES, and nobody to put them OUT!

Now we..well we try... to put them out. Imagine ..uncontrolled forest fires.

Lots of forests 'cause we didn't have forest companies cutting them down.

'Course now we have automobiles belching out CO2..and so on. With less forests burning.

Between you and me though, I think greenhouse gas emissions should be reduced, just in case.

And another thing I have NEVER seen addressed:

The CHLORINE in municipal water systems... AND there are A HELL OF A LOT OF CITIES with water systems!!!

It ALL GETS TO ESCAPE into the ATMOSPHERE, depleting the OZONE.

Where is the data on this?

Lots of chlorine I would think......

Posted by: eastern paul at September 16, 2005 9:48 PM

That's nothing, check out the problems caused by dihydrogen monoxide, at:

Posted by: Tony at September 16, 2005 10:00 PM

In Europe:>>>

The gathering storm

Historic change is looming in the heart of Europe. At stake is far more than a mere change of leaders - Germany and France face economic and cultural upheavals of a kind that comes once in a generation. With Daniel Johnson on Germany, and David Lawday on France
Schroder's 1968ers reach the end of the line. By Daniel Johnson>>>> more

Posted by: maz2 at September 16, 2005 10:13 PM

Organized crime does not survive and thrive by being stupid. Kyoto is another perfect opportunity for the Libranos and friends to get their cut of the action. It will be interesting to see what kind of dithering, blathering comment comes from PM. He wants to have a way to wriggle out of it because the targets will be impossible to meet being the coldest country in the world, and yet will need to find a way to replace the lost revenue to the crime family (Libranos) and it's friends (old Power Corp buddies et al.)

Posted by: kada at September 16, 2005 10:20 PM

visit the Royal Tyrell Museum in Drumheller, we were rainforest

Posted by: kelly at September 16, 2005 11:29 PM

I don't believe that Tony Blair's comments will have any influence on Canadain politics. Only last month PMPM was telling us he was going to "educate GWB" on global warming. The Libs have embraced this and they won't likely be backing down anytime soon, much less admit that it is a flawed treaty. Don't be fooled this their way into the Alberta riches.

Sierra is right - companies that have embraced reducing CO2 emissions are saving money and creating "good" technologies along the way. WIth luck it's this technology that will become wide spread and we will all gain without any of the nonsense of "CO2 credits" being paid to some 3rd world dictator.

Posted by: sheila at September 16, 2005 11:39 PM

Hey, lighten up eh? Here's something I swiped earlier today..

You fools it's, already too late! I got up this morning at 5 AM and it was
68, at 3 PM the temperature had risen to 80 degrees. At the present rate of
global warming, the temperature will be 1268 in 90 hours, with all life
having ceased to exist hours before.

Hold on, at 5 PM the temperature had plummeted to 78 degrees. At the now
present state of global cooling, the earth will be covered in ice in less
than 100 hours.

It doesn't matter! We’re all doomed. '3s TG

Posted by: TonyGuitar at September 17, 2005 6:25 AM

Nice point Tony. If you skew the time frame of a study to suit your desired outcome, it is just as intellectually bankrupt as faking the numbers outright.

Sort of like the headlines blaring about US jobless claims at a ten year high. No kidding, think a few million people picking up the splinters of their lives on the Gulf coast may have anything to do with that? Watch when the rebuilding process kicks into high gear, there won't be a peep about all the new job creation.

Posted by: Shawn at September 17, 2005 9:40 AM

Made-made global warming is a myth. If the climate is changing it is because that's what climates do, there is no stasis.

I would support any new developments that would decrease the smog in my city, but would not pay one penny towards anything that supposedly cures "global warming" (like CO2 credits) but leaves my local air quality the same.

In 50 years if it's proven that I'm wrong, and the global warming coven is right, then I will buy them all a round and toast them, from the deck of my new beach house in North Bay.

Posted by: MustControlFistOfDeath at September 17, 2005 10:07 AM

The REAL Koyto Killer Has Arrived:

====== NEWS FLASH ======
This thread is just getting warm…

YES! - It’s new… Yes! It’s in Winnipeg Canada.

Normal Gas Engine burns at 35% efficiency.

Gas Engine + H2N-Gen.. Burns at 97% eficiency!

I’m turning off notify comments. Don’t want my Cable IP to crash with the email load..
Is this a Kyoto Killer or what? 73s TonyGuitar

Posted by: TonyGuitar at September 17, 2005 2:30 PM

I've long been amused how so many of our fellow Canadians took great pleasure in holding up high how Canada had signed onto the Kyoto Protocol and in the next breath condemning "those damn Americans" for not doing so. Yet they have not another word to mutter when I point out the following to them:
- Chretien exempted the Big-3 automakers in Ontario & Quebec from Kyoto restrictions.
- Canada, as a nation, has done little to nothing to reduce our emissions.
- Canadians, for the most part, have done little to nothing to change their lifestyles in support of Kyoto.

So what's worse, I further ask, someone who says, "No, I choose not to do that" or someone who says, "Absolutely I'll help out", but then doesn't?!

Posted by: Robert Werner at September 17, 2005 3:23 PM

How come everybody who believes in global warming is not just totally uninformed about every aspect of climate studies, but has no recourse but to whimper like an infant and demand to be spoonfed every relevant piece of information about it?

Why don't you know what the evidence is, "laura"? Are you stupid?

Posted by: ebt at September 17, 2005 4:16 PM

RobertWerner, excellent point. That applies in a sense to used ocean vessel demolition..[ship breaking = industry term]. Did you see the W5 program on it?.

We have one of the cleanest *ship breaking* yards going, yet most old ships end up in India or Bangledesh or China. What do you suppose happens to the PCBs, asbestos and lead there?

Over three hundred military ships in the US floating boneyard. Thirteen ships carry about 700 tons of PCBs. Thank god rules prevent export of those shells.

They will have to be cleanly rendered in the USA. The steel goes to China of course.

We do not have the prohibit PCB export law they have in the USA. Canada the progressive eh? 73s TG

Posted by: TonyGuitar at September 17, 2005 5:19 PM

Oh, almost forgot... It's cheaper for ship owners like CSL to flog their used, two footbal field sized steel monoliths off to the third wold where labour is cheap.

CSL, CSL...Hmmm rings a bell. C.S.L./Martin!
Well, who would of guessed? 3's TG

Posted by: TonyGuitar at September 17, 2005 5:43 PM

Federal Judge Dismisses Greenhouse Gas Lawsuit
Posted by rottndog
On 09/17/2005 2:52:24 PM PDT · 13 replies · 130+ views

Competitive Enterprise Institute ^ | September 15, 2005 | Richard Morrison
Washington, D.C., September 15, 2005—A federal judge today dismissed a lawsuit brought by several states and environmental groups aimed at forcing major utility companies to reduce their emissions of greenhouses gases. “Judge Loreta A. Preska deserves a medal for clearly explaining why legal restrictions on CO2 emissions are ‘transcendently legislative’ and thus could not be imposed by a court without violating separation of powers and the judicial doctrine that prohibits courts from reviewing ‘non-justiciable political questions,’” said Competitive Enterprise Institute Senior Fellow Marlo Lewis, Jr. The suit would have required Judge Preska to craft an elaborate set of legislative responses,...>>> more

Posted by: maz2 at September 17, 2005 6:21 PM

I don't know, good doctor ebt. If you say I'm stupid, then I guess it must be so. Is it terminal? I had so hoped that I might recover. Then with my immunity, I could go back and help so many others suffering under the plague of environMental disease, and not even knowing they are ill. But I guess you are probably right, it is more important to drive me away and keep the air pure for your friends. We'll keep the camps safely separate, and you can just hope I die of my stupidity before the next election.

Posted by: Laura at September 17, 2005 10:26 PM

Laura, Lauraa, Here, stupid is only a figure of speech... Only means the opinion is highly suspect. ebt only had a weak moment there. His opinions are ofte..usually quite correct..

In a sense, if your arguments are difficult to refute, then *stupid* could equate to a declaration of Uncle, or I give up.. eh?

Your graceful manner of response to the attack was amusing and gently effective.

Kyoto is the theme here, and in keeping with that I commented above on the Kyoto slayer above.

Considering that the Montreal Gazette is one of our most respected newspapers,
[Brought up in Montreal, I delivered them, the papers, I mean],
that 7 point something millions were invested and that the story seems to have some technical promise, I choose to remain positive about the H2n converter.

The Ballard people, remeber them? The Hydrogen experts? must be steaming, eh?

BTW, C-11, the Whistle Blower Protection bill is at the top of the list in the

*Status of Government Business Centre*

list, to be found in THE HILL TIMES, followin the story:- *Conservatives expect another poisionous session*. Sept 12/05

This is worth printing out for refrence for:

C-11 WB protection most important of all

C-17 Marijuana Decriminalization Bill, Most i important to our more relaxed friends.

C-37 Unsolicited Telecommunications Bill

C-50 Cruelty to animals Bill Kate's bill?

C-54 Oil Exploration Bill. for Albertan's?
This won't matter that much if the
Winnipeg Kyoto Killer works as
advertised. Raising gas engine efficiency from 35% to 97% and eliminating any pollution, water droplets from exhaust.
No more 3 Billion dollar refineries to build.

Looking forward to cleaner times in Ottawa and at the exhaust pipe. '3s TG

Posted by: TonyGuitar at September 18, 2005 1:52 PM

Thanks Tony. Say, that H2N-Gen article IS pretty impressive. Here's hoping. Zero carbon monoxide in the Jeep test?!! That's a big plus. Now, let's hope bigger engines, more A/C etc. don't just eat up all the efficiency gains. I still can't find a current-model truck to match my 15-year-old truck for efficiency in a 4x4 (which I need for work - I'm now getting by with a 2WD since the 4x4 died, and I don't mind walking in to some work sites, but the company may not like paying me for my walking time.)

Oh, I drive a truck for the environment.
I spew out greenhouse gases
on my way to key out grasses
that will soon be getting killed
beneath the road they have to build
to reach the well, to pump the crude
from which the gasoline is brewed
to fill my tank so I can drive my truck
for the environment.

(from a song I wrote about my work)
See, the reason I even jump into these discussions is, I sincerely believe that climate change is a real concern, and I also believe it will take serious individual action to fix it. But how is any individual going to bother making changes if they don't even believe that it exists?

Posted by: Laura at September 18, 2005 3:44 PM

Tony G/Laura,

Careful with your hard earned money around Joe Williams and his far fetched claims. Ever hear of the secret carburator that improved a car's gas mileage to 200mpg but it was bought up by the oil companies?

The article attached to the link is misleading. It misuses engineering terminology and incorrectly links information. A glaring example is that 35% efficiency for a gasoline engine means that only 35% of the fuel is burned during it's time in the engine. That's obviously false because we would be choking on gas fumes at every red light if it was true. The 35% number is actually referring to thermodynamic efficiency...namely the efficiency of heat being transformed into mechanical power. There's many causes for the low efficiency of a gasoline engine...entropy, friction, compression ratio, non-ideal behaviour of gases, etc. By the way...a gasoline engine is typically 24 to 29% efficient, the 35% number could only belong to a diesel engine. Also, I believe that the burn efficiency on modern gasoline engines is already near the 97% number without any H2N Gen (thanks to computer controlled air/fuel mixing and fuel injection).

To really improve efficiency, more heat would have to be extracted as mechanical work...that involves a different engine design and not merely a device that uses hydrolysis to inject a tiny smidge of hydrogen and oxygen.

By the way...things like hydrolysis and rare earth magnets have been used over and over again to pull the wool over people's eyes and separate them from honestly earned cash.

Posted by: Martin B. at September 19, 2005 1:24 AM

Thanks Martin. Yeah, I hadn't had time to dig into some fact-checking, but I figured the 35% to 97% figures must be off somehow because why would you then get only a 10% gain in fuel efficiency? Still, 10% would be a good start, if that part is true.

Posted by: Laura at September 19, 2005 11:49 AM

[comment removed]

ebt - cut the namecalling

Posted by: ebt at September 19, 2005 1:05 PM

While it is possible that human beings have had an effect on global warming, that warming has been taking place, with some occasional temporary excursions of a few centuries duration, for the last 13,000 years as we have been coming out of the last ice age -- and we aren't all the way out yet. At best we may have accelerated said trend by a century at most.

In the mean time there are documented increases in temperature over many decades on Mars, Pluto and Triton (the biggest moon of Neptune) -- and Pluto has been moving AWAY from the sun. I guess man must be causing global warming on other planets as well with our evil oil-burning ways.

Posted by: Gary Wiltshire at September 19, 2005 4:12 PM