Amen.

Why Canadians don't care for Canada. See this article by Jack Granatstein in Ottawa Citizen, Aug. 27: "Getting history right: Canadian children learn history, but one of the country's foremost popular historians, J.L. Granatstein, says they're only getting part of the story."
http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/features/littlehouse/story.html?id=b72cebe5-bc0d-4ed0-84c9-f7652309dc84

Excerpts:

'Most often, Canadian children are made to wallow in the sins of the past, being told of a Canada that oppressed minorities, natives and women and, moreover, despoiled the environment. It's all true, but it's only part of a much more complicated story we never tell our children.

...students are taught about the internment of Japanese Canadians in the Second World War...Most often, Canadian children are made to wallow in the sins of the past, being told of a Canada that oppressed minorities, natives and women and, moreover, despoiled the environment. It's all true, but it's only part of a much more complicated story we never tell our children...

This was a great injustice, but there were reasons why the state acted as it did. People were frightened, fearful of Japan attacking the West Coast, fearful of spying and fifth-column activities. The main Japanese Canadian newspaper had been publishing paid Japanese government propaganda for some time and, while that was legitimate when Japan and Canada were not at war, it looked very different after Dec. 7, 1941. Moreover, military and political advice from B.C. was unanimously in favour of evacuation.

Why not teach the full story? Because the "internment" story is now part of Canadian historical orthodoxy and better at making the point that Canada was a racist society and that we have a past full of shame. In the age before the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, or so we are taught, Canadians lived in a racist, brutal society where none had rights. After the Charter, the new multicultural Canada blossomed forth and we all live happily ever after...

Instead, what we must do, in my view, is to teach children, those born here and those who immigrated here, that Canada struggled to become a democracy through the efforts of its men and women. We fought wars -- contrary to the school texts, Canada did more in the Second World War than maltreat Japanese Canadians -- for democracy and freedom and we struggled to advance liberty at home.

We made dreadful errors, but we tried to atone for them...

In other words, Canada is not the failure that, incredibly, we tell our children it is. Canadians live in a society that works...

This is what we must teach young Canadians, and especially those who have only recently arrived, many from very different traditions...

...Instead we prattle about our sins, persuading schoolchildren that this society, if it has any past at all, has a history that is overwhelmingly one of oppression and shame. This serves no Canadian's interest and no public purpose. It distorts history and, I suspect, accounts for the "boring" label so often applied to Canada's past...'

Mark
Ottawa

I did listen to the broadcast and I couldn't believe my ears! It was almost 100% NO. Then I thought about it. If you are in a 27 year marriage with four kids and things go sour, you would put in alot of effort to make it work. Now relate that to a blind date with someone that you made absolutely no connection with. Would you call them back? I wouldn't.

I cannot wait to join USA...maybe after election?

What really gets me is the lefty bloggers telling us that we don't really feel alienated. Its just a figment of our imagination, and the western standard poll was faked. And to top it all off, some of them are even Albertan!!!

Silly me. I thought Liberals believed that appealing to emotional patriotism (as the Americans are always said to do) was a Bad Thing.

Hans Island is also part of this script.

Mark
Ottawa

George,

Are you from Alberta? The US is really only interested in Alberta, at least the GOP is. They wont take the "home of medicare" or the home of Marc Emery.

Alberta seperatism is a real issue but I cannot see Alberta "nationalists" wanting to dilute their enterprise with less solid constituencies from Saskatchewan or BC.

Kate's comments though is probably the most insightful....how long can you tell someone they are un canadian before they decide to become uncanadian....applies to non centralist federalists from Quebec as well.

As far as the "sharing the wealth", I am from Ontario, I dont want the money Alberta is earnig from its resources, at least not from a confiscation program. I just want to stop sending so much of my own provinces wealth to other parts of the country, Quebec included.

If that means Danny Williams wants to saw Newfoundland off and float it out to sea...good luck to you and make sure you take Clyde Wells with you. I doubt the US would take Newfoundland either, they'll just buy the oil.

George,
while it is true that Americans appreciate Alberta and admire and respect the people of Alberta, that doesn't mean that the US would not enjoy the idea of some other provinces joining us as well.

What we really want are people who are more or less like us already in respect to their conservative leanings. Our concern would be about provinces filled with people who have far-leftist ideological predispositions. It would be counterproductive to the United States to have a bunch of new socialists to contend with. (We have enough of our own already.)

Personally, if Kate and her family are representative of Saskatchewan, I would love for Alberta and Saskatchewan to think about the possibilities of joining the US. There may be others. We would like provinces that joining the US to help us find and implements solutions. And conservative leaning provinces often see life as we do, and therefore we share the same mind and heart and worldview.

Here are a few Saskatchewan facts to consider - there is a palpable divide in the ideology of rural and urban residents - the rural being more conservative (though there are pockets of old CCF stalwarts) while the bloated, unionized civil service is primarily located in the larger cities, particularly Regina. Thus, urban tends to vote Liberal/NDP, while rural is exclusively SaskParty.

If, in an unlikely scenerio, Alberta were to join the US taking Saskatchewan with it, the first likely consequence would be a severe reduction in public sector, unionized jobs.

That would result in an exodus of those civil servants to more friendly territory in the east and west coast, and/or a great number of those former civil servants moving into the private sector - gaining an appreciation for small government and deregulation they don't currently have

Ultimate outcome - a "state" that is more conservative and free market oriented. Think Montana, North Dakota.

We have the resources to be as wealthy as Alberta. The only ingredient lacking is the electoral ability to throw off a heavily socialized government economy run by a party that is hard at work creating its own core constituency by putting it on the government payroll.

Very broad strokes, admittedly, but that's the view in my crystal ball.

Kate, I would apply your comments on Saskatchewan to BC as well. Outside of Victoria and Vancouver, the electorate is chiefly conservative with some NDP support in smaller imdustry-supported communities, although I believe many of those are gone now after the NDP decimated our resource industries in the 90's.

I am confused as to why everyone keeps suggesting the western provinces join the US. With BC, Alberta, Sask, and Manitoba we would have an strong economic base to begin something new and better than the US or Canada. Draw from the successes and failures in Canada and those in the US. Does anyone think the US would react aggressively? I do seem to remember US ships in our ports accross the country during the PQ referedum but I highly doubt this was to walk in and take Quebec.

Regardless, I don't think it is quite happening in BC yet, although I do live in the suburbs of Vancouver so it is hard for me to have a beat on the ROBC (Rest of BC)....uh-oh look I've started it already. But, I think BC would be an important componant to Northern Cascadia (Cascadia without the western states) as the gateway to trade in the Pacific. Our new port up north in Prince Rupert is expected to be one of the largest ports in the world when it is completed.

It is time though - I hate to say it but this version of Canada is not working. Interestingly, as of late I've been thinking of myself as British Columbia foremost, and then Canadian. This coming from someone with a maple leaf tattoo.

Even today we continue to be pushed away:

http://tinyurl.com/9rzlf

But I'm as un-Canadain as you can get. It's socialist/marxist mouthpieces like the expert in the article that make me that way.

Saskatchewan currently has 13 PC and 1 Liberal in Ottawa. I don't think this will change in the future, especially if more ink is given to the potential a resource-rich Saskatchewan would have in or out of Canada. Saskatchewan's best days are ahead of her.

British Columbia is a mixed bag. BC has 8 Liberals, 22 PC, 5 NDP and 1 Independent in Ottawa. BC has a much higher percentage of voters who are in a union of one kind or another. Think ports and communication in addition to civil service. The only problem for BC is the Lower Mainland and Vancouver area, where there is a lot of socialist thinking and, of course, a lot of pollution (another story).

BC has a wealth of hydro power, minerals and forestry. And it has direct access to Asia via it's ports. It sits between Alaska and Washington, really in the middle of Western America when you think of it.

Also, don't forget Manitoba. They now have 3 Liberal, 7 PC and 4 NDP. So they are split down the middle. To cut a long story short, Manitoba has access to the Pacific via Hudson Bay. This, granted, is not open year round, but then neither is the St. Lawrence Seaway.

Alberta of course has 2 Liberals and 26 PC in Ottawa. We all know how rich they are in natural resources, specifically oil, so I won't go into that here. That's a given.

For a Western Canada composed of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and BC the present picture in Ottawa looks like this:

Liberal - 14
NDP - 16
PC - 68

I agree with Kate. If these 4 very rich and obviously more independent western provinces decided to strike out on their own they would be a force. You would see union jobs fleeing to the big centres in Ontario and Quebec (I don't think Quebec will separate). In addition, you will see businesses re-locate to resource-rich Alberta, and also to Saskatchewan and British Columbia. Most of these people will be non-union.

A Western Canada comprising these four provinces would be a force in the world.

A final word about the rest of Canada. Without going into the details, Ontario east also have a lot going for them. They have excess hydro power, forestry, minerals as well as other natural resources. The have several ports and access to Europe. And they have some great people. The problem is the socialist mindset pervading their thinking. Perhaps if they find themselves on their own, without the wealth of Western Canada, they will come to terms with some of these misplaced values and change. Then, just maybe, we can all get together again, sometime in the future, and re-create the Canada we used to have, the Canada our ancestors fought, suffered and died for in two great wars.

I should have added to my previous comment that both Ontario east and BC have the fisheries industries of course.

Also should have mentioned that I am a Canadian first. But I am prepared to break it up in order to, hopefully, save it from itself. The way we're going will lead us to a disaster very soon. I don't want to remember myself as sitting quietly, watching it happen, and not doing anything. Western separation is the final answer to saving Canada. We can deal with Ottawa from a position of enormous power. Let's just quit talking about it and do it.

Geez. Reading this thread, one would think that separatism is just a cover for joining the US. Whatever happened to an independent Alberta?

I love the US, but you can't make me an American with one flip of the switch.

Oh, and the WS poll wasn't faked, just misrepresented.

Kate/Happy,

Sorry, from an American point of view Saskatchewan and BC are Blue states....Saskatchewan is more Minnesota than North Dakota and BC is like Washington.

GOP wont go for it. The only way it might happen is if there was a deal between the GOP and Dems...one red state and one Blue states.

So Alberta and one other....but only one.

If you get a situation where there is a dominant GOP then it will be only Alberta. If it was dominant DEM then you might get the whole country in.

And if your in Alberta and u are going to be on your own why would you let either Sask or BC in? No good reason.

The infighting amongst a "western" as opposed to Alberta seperatist movement will be immense, their interests are not the same when you look under the covers.

Alberta doesnt need anybody else, not Ontario, not Sask, not BC and not the US (except for military protection)

Alberta seperatism is "Alberta firstism" not an ideological movement of conservatism. If it was ideological only then there is argument that it would be trying to spread its fire throughout the federation and try to capture larger power with the core of that power being Alberta. I still say in another 10 years the census will move past the tipping point in Alberta's favour.

If it is Alberta "firstism" then it is about Alberta withdrawing to protect itself from having its wealth stolen.

Here is a question to ponder. How has Alberta's political culture been affected by the waves of immigration that have fueled its growth of population.

How is the "conservative" culture painted on all these newfoundlanders and ontarions that have made the trip? Assuming it is.

Do all of these people who arent "natural" albertans want to leave the country that they are part of? or just maintain the life that they have now got themselves in.

An NEP2 is a huge mistake, from so many points of view. If Alberta wants to push its agenda it should do so through wealth sharing in the Council of the Federation not through the unfriendly federal government, that will get ugly when Federal Liberals from other regions can no longer take credit for money being delivered from the Federal government.

That is the pressure that Courchene is hinting at, and he is a Sakatchewan Boy!

My Canada does not include Ottawa. I am an Alberta separatist--but I do not want to break up what could be a great country--just want to take our country away from the Liberals. The Liberals do NOT speak for or represent my Canada--they represent themselves, Demarais, PowerCorp and Martin. But they ARE NOT CANADA--no matter how much they tell us what Canada and Canadians want!!!

"wealth sharing" - Alberta is sending 12 billion this year to Ottawa. I think we've shared enough. If Ontarians want a piece of our economy, they can move here.

"Severe reduction in public sector, unionized jobs"
"We have the resources to be as wealthy as Alberta"

Kate, if you ever enter politics I will move back and vote for you. It's so frustrating that so many young people like myself have to leave the province to chase their dreams.

Candace,

Well Ontario's NET is negative 23 billion, which means the amount sent to the federal government is much much higher. Was Alberta's 12 billion gross or net?

The point isnt to compare size, only to say I share your point. Equalization is based on some notion that all services must be the same as Ontario's.....for some reason my fellow Ontario voters seem to go along with this. Ironically the only Ontario political parties that mention this are the NDP (in the early 90's) and the Liberals now.

When Ontario was in a position to receive equalization payments in the late 70's under Bill Davis' Tories he absolutely refused. This was when Alberta's first real blush of oil wealth came out.

If Harris mentioned it, it would have been in the context of telling everyone else to get their house in order.

My point...I thnk Ontarions really just want to be relieved of the burden of supporting have not provinces, and the biggest receipient is Quebec, so you know where all of this debate is eventually going......

Stephen - that's our NET contribution, what we don't get back from what's put in, I'm not sure what the gross is currently, it's fairly high.

It amounts to contributions of about 2500.00 per year for every person in AB. If you want it on a per capita bases.

Stephen,
While you are comparing Alberta's 12 million to Ontario's 23 million keep in mind the population difference.

Ontario has over 12 Million people and Alberta only 3 Million, a difference of 4 times....

If the Americans did want to take Alberta in as a state, wouldn't they twin it with Puerto Rico? That would give one red and one blue state.

I have evidence that the Government Knowingly mislead the Federal court in sworn statements which in my opinion defrauded the west out of 100 of millions of dollars in NISA program entitlements. I have tried to have the media tell the story but they have been very slow to do so. Now that control only previosly existing in the USSR. You always have to watch your back as there are plenty who would do you in as the money is plentiful. Notice the farm papers and organizations have been completely quite on this issue. Currently Canada has two completely different stories running in two sworn statements before the courts in this on going claim. What the farmers don't know has hurt them.

You might want to check this article from the National Post.

Klein must share: expert
Country will be in danger if Alberta keeps riches: Courchene

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=5c32a294-57f9-4182-9a75-08562b9622b8

I wonder if the Liberals are working behind the scenes so another NEP can be set up. Under a gentler, more politically sensitive name of course.

Face it, if Ontario is going to become a have-not province in a few years some one will have to "share" so the bills can be paid.

And who would dispute a non-political expert like Mr. Courchene?

I hope someone will post this article from the National Post. Perhaps someone has.

Gordonm

Rob/David E,

Just wanted to see if the figures were on a similar scale. Gross would be total amount sent to Ottawa...net is the gross minus what gets sent back to the province.

On a net basis yes it appears Alberta is out more. Clearly factors such as amounts sent by pop for health education, transportation, immigration, unemployment etc factor into this. A better off province, by definition will pay more per capita, fewer unemployed, welfare etc.

I am sure we can find the gross numbers somewhere. But as I said the point was definitely not to see whose is bigger....the factors above make for a wide ranging and eye glazing debates amongst accounting types....

The point was that Ontario is in the same boat as Alberta, a large financial net contributor to confederation. The way it is setup right now the size of the contribution buys you nothing, no influence, no say etc etc...some would say taxation without representation!!!

the discussion of Ontario being a have not province is silly...I am sure at some point we could all be "have not" under this ridiculous formula. Then where does the money come from.

The real point is that we need to rethink all of this so we arent taxing so much and re order things so the responsibilities better match the taxing power. Right now you never know who to blame. Why we have federal elections over waiting lists in hospitals is beyond me. The federal government has nothing to do with it. Transfer the ability to tax to the provincial governments and let them take the heat and bouquets for balancing tax levels with service levels.

The federal government should worry about other things, like trade, foreign policy , customs and immigration.

The deal Martin cut with Danny Williams is amazing. Newfoundland will be receiving equalization payments and ROYALTIES for $80 a barrel oil. Dumb dumb dumb.....

I miss Lougheed, I miss Davis....they made it work!

"Whats NB To Say", I'd like to see any evidence you can provide. When you say, "knowingly misled", does that mean the Liberals deliberately lied to the Federal Court? Perhaps you could provide it here somehow?

If the MSM would rather protect the Liberals, then why not let the blogosphere do the job the MSM won't? Think about it.

Speaking of what's NB to say, I, living in NB, but formerly of Sask and Ontario before that, would like to add a Maritimer's perspective.

If Ottawa never gets around to giving the Maritimes a "hand up" rather than that damaging, devastating old "handout", perhaps separation could be at least a consideration. Or at least, remain politically tied to Ottawa while exercising as much economic independence as possible from the ROC and instead negotiating a separate economic union with the US, particularly the New England states (a form of north-south economic trading bloc). Hey, if Quebec can have its form of relative political independence via getting special privileges and deals, etc., why not the East Coast in economic terms? Why not get tough and start playing hardball with Ottawa? What have we to lose, except for some economically distorting subsidies?

We over here would stand to gain monumentally. We must first do something serious about the totalitarianist Librano$.

There was some talk above about the sociopolitical culture of Sask wherein Kate described an urban-rural disconnect and the effect of a socialistic regime in Regina. I certainly see the contrast with Alberta and understand the reasons for the differences. I also acknowledge the drastic decline of Ontario economically with the seizing of and foolish exercising of power by the McGuinty gang. They resocialized and made more costly the already still-too-large civil service. The result: higher taxes and possibly impending have-not status. New Brunswick, with both Frank McKenna and Bernard Lord, has been making the mistake of bribing relatively low-wage call-center companies to set up shop inside the province. Sure, they set up and employ quite a few people at low-to-moderate pay, but left and right I observe them laying off by the hundreds and even closing down completely. Tax dollars are not being wisely invested into this industry, in my opinion. This limitation in scope of industry variety is not good for the province. What we need here are serious corporate tax reductions beyond those already made. Red tape for companies should also be drastically reduced. While I still will vote Conservative provincially, I would like to see more serious action on the economic front. More hardball with Ottawa. Sure, the local papers are always trumpeting positive economic news, but as far as I can critically see, we're effectively stalled economically.

Replacing the federal Liberals is a first, and absolutely necessary, step. Their massively built command-and-control of the leftist network in Candada must be completely broken. Patronage, pork barreling, cronyism, billions in insane waste annually must be halted, unnecessary civil service functions and positions must be slashed and refocussed, lean and mean like the private sector. The bottom line, value for taxpayer dollars, must be scrupulously respected.

The Liberal state apparatus has historically built tight, mutually dependent scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours relationships with the MSM, the civil service and other unions, special interest groups, the legal system and judiciary, law enforcement, professional associations, the military, etc. etc. Its reach is virtually unlimited and those with whom it has a symbiotic relationship are among its strongest syncophantic supporters.

This symbiosis must be shattered once the Liberals are forced into the political wilderness. No longer will they be able to use their reach to manipulate the thinking of the electorate, the sociopolitical culture, etc. It all must be transformed into a real democracy with a genuinely free MSM, noncorrupt legal-judicial system, noncorrupt law enforcement system, etc. The electorate must be freed of intellectual coercion and control and allowed to understand the country and how it works, therefore making much, much more informed choices up to and including at election time.

Then and only then can Canada again rise to new, well-deserved glory, with greater quality of life and equality for all good citizens.

A thousand apologies for this amazingly long post, but I just had to put these thoughts out there. Any questions or pointing out of errors in logic, feel free to say so...

The "expert" quoted in the Post used to float trial balloons on policy for Chretien. I went into it on my site if anyone's interested, but let's just say I won't be sleeping real well anytime soon.

On the upside, I'm taking the new condo on a "rent to own" basis so if the economy tanks thanks to PMPM and his "experts" I can bail relatively easily. How sad is that?

As an Albertan working in Texas, I am always amazed at how the Liberanos and lefties automatically assume that IF Alberta separates they would join the US of A.
There has always been Canada - US rivalry, hockey, CFL/NFL, Blue/Budwieser, etc. but lately I seem to see a lot more real hate out there. This my friends is not healthy. With the exception of Montana, Texas has more in common with Alberta(oil, beef, cowboys and good work ethic) that the Atlantic provinces. Does it mean that America wants Alberta? Not really. Would they like to trade and have an independant Alberta as a good neighbour? Damn right they would.
I served my country from coast to coast and still fly the flag but what Ottawa has done to Canada makes me ashamed and embarrassed, and for me that hurts deep.

Texas Canuck, I apologize on behalf of those stupid Canadians who don't know any better-- they're brainwashed, after all...

I think that it would be amazingly foolish for Ontario to even consider taking any more money from Alberta. In Alberta currently, except for the Liberals and Socialists, most people are of the mindset that they want to remain in Canada if they can but if all else fails they are prepared to separate. All this type of cash grab would do would be to convince everyone that Alberta is just a colony to be pillage by central canada whenever they saw fit; Ontario had no interest in Alberta when oil was at $18 a barrel but certainly has interest when it is $60.

A move like this would change the polls in alberta to show something like 60% of Albertans support seperatism, 20% are considering seperatism, and 20% favor staying in Canada (of which 90% of them would be governmental empolyees and companies directly involved with government).

Texas Canuck, I think you are dead on. If anything were to occur on that level, it would result in an independent Alberta, not a 51st state. And THAT would be a VREY GOOD THING INDEED.

This whining by Ontario is simply posturing pre-election. They scream poverty and point to Alberta's wealth and suddenly, everybody is talking NEP. The Libs are counting on 8 or 9 seats out here to make up the number they'll lose in Quebec. They'll give Ontario more money, you can bet on it. They don't want to antagonize a province essential to their majority win. BC, under the NDP, was a have-not province. It took Gordon Campbell's belt tightening to turn things around, and of course, this has been met with tremendous resistance by the left who continue to believe it's okay to rip off middle and upper middle class people through high taxation. Has anybody ever seen a study showing a correlation between drug use and social assistance? I know at least a dozen people in Vancouver who won't work because they're too stoned most of the time. And the NDP has screamed at the Libs here because they've cut the number of years a person can collect, and cut them off outright if they refuse to be retrained. The NDP, including Ujjal Dosanjh, all but annihilated the economy here in B.C. Ontario ought to shut up and tighten its belt. McGinty probably blew a wad trying to get himself elected. Hell, look at all the new car manufacturing plants they're putting up in Ontario. At least two that I know of.

This description of Alberta and Saskatchewan joining Canada in 1905 is from http://northernblue.ca/cblog/archives/188-1905-Alberta-Act.html. I guess I forgot my history and that Alberta and Saskatchewan originally were intended to be one province. Even then, the feds used divide-and-conquer techniques. Alberta needs the other western provinces.

"Founding of Alberta and Saskatchewan on this day; enter the Dominion as 8th and 9th provinces. In 1882 Canada's North West Territory had been divided into four districts: Athabasca, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Assiniboia (where the capital, Regina, was located). In 1888, a territorial legislature was created, which under Premier Frederick Haultain pressured the federal government for more autonomy. In 1897, the territory got responsible government, and in 1900, Haultain pressed for provincial status. Minister of the Interior Clifford Sifton and Prime Minister Wilfred Laurier refused, saying that settlement was still too sparse, but the angry response - the Calgary Herald predicted another North West Rebellion - led Laurier to promise provincial status if he won the 1904 election. Haultain, a Conservative, had campaigned for one province, but Laurier felt it would be too powerful, and suggested three. The final decision was to create two - Alberta, named for the fourth daughter of Queen Victoria, and Saskatchewan, derived from 'kisiskatchwanisipi', the Cree word for 'swift-flowing river'."

Candace.

Glad you made that decision to rent to own. I would never buy a condo right now. We're at the top of the cycle I believe and the only way is down. Even Alan Greenspan said as much yesterday. I think if the economy tanks it won't all be PMPM's fault. Everything goes in cycles and greed is the enemy. But what the Liberals have been doing sure isn't helping any.

Ottawa Delenda Est!

Know this ... half of Ameria is just a weak and stupid as the approximately 80% of canada. We have sunk a long way in the Western world as far as priciples and self-reliance go. Fear of change and inertia are the diseases that continue to keep the scum forming atop of our pond.
We continue to lean toward the trough as long as there is enough gruel to go around. When he flow of graft, payola and outright stolen money stops moving around, the action will begin. Until then ... we must simply sit around and wait for that promised, but never to be delivered MRI machine shows up in our little hospitals.
As long as an election can be won on the promise of an even larger tit to suck on somewhere down the line, the never-ending line up for the government dispensed jelly donut will continue to grow setting us all farther away from the freedom and prosperity that right-thinking people so deserately want and need.
We are a nation a suckers and with one born every minute the odds are mounting against us.
Until the diminishing numbers of real men and the women who don't want girly men as their mates do something drastic, the slide downward to oblivian will continue ... all the rants in the various pontificating threads won't change that.
Know this too ... no meaningful change in any society has ever come about by peaceful methods.
When the FLQ ala Michaele Jean and company stated that freedoms are never granted, but must be taken, they spoke the truth.
Maybe we need a lot more truth and a lot let talk.
Rather than yet another sop trying to look Liberal enough to be elected (Stephen Harper) we need a charsimatic leader of the, dare I say Hitler variety comes along absolutely nothing will change. Got that? We need something or someone to rally around .. someone who will ride point and set an example for others to follow. Someone to talk and walk tough. We need a god damned revolution in this idiotic socialist enclave so we can get free of political correctness, generational guilt, fear, envy and resentment. We need some LEADERSHIP so we can change out lives and our country. Anyone, anyone?
I need a drink.

Forgive me, I'm from conservative rural Ontario and proud of it. Its a wonderful place, not that different from rural anywhere Canada. No, we are not changing our license plate messaging per suggestions presented on other strings...

Rather than join in the cop-out chorus of "lets get out of Canada", are there any non-cynical ideas as to how to rebuild Canada in our collective conservative image out there?

Here are my suggestions:
- create more Ontario's and Alberta's within Canada. That requires wealth creation - a skill that has been stiffled in this country for years.
- rework the tax system (less of it)to generate opportunities across the country.
- quit playing the "Patriot Game" w/ Quebec and any other province that continuously threatens to leave. This only engenders more gov't spending (and attendant corruption) and bad feelings and has he ultimate endgame of wrecking the country.
- but if that's what people want...set firm rules of the road for any seperation within the Constitution. They might just change their minds once they knew the rules of the road.
- while you've got the Constitution document open for editing...do a Triple-E senate and fix equalization.

It all starts with booting out the Liberals and giving Harper a chance to run the country. Not saying that he'd do all the above but he'd get the country on course to deal with some of its problems.

Keeping it Beautiful...

How about a federation of independent provinces - no Ottawa - with currency and defence in common? I don't see anything wrong with this country or the people. It's federalism I cannot stand, and those who support it tend to believe that a one-party state is perfectly acceptable, as long as it's liberal. While I'm not particularly enchanted with the tactics used by the FLQ, I do applaud Quebec's determination to rid itself of Ottawa's tentacles. Until I saw the fallout from Gomery, I thought Quebecers' snouts were so deeply in the trough, they'd never cup up for air. But it'll be Quebecers who determine the fate of the Librano$ in the next election, and given the history of Adscam, I'm hoping that they'll remember it was vote-buying that was at the root of the sponsorship scandal.

These last two posts .... pie in the sky! ... you are dreaming ... how the hell do you think anyone is going to get anyone who is votes for the scum in power to vote for the "intelligent, but non-charismatic and with hidden agenda" Stephen Harper. This guy is poison to the lefties and they are the one's with the numbers. Also Quebec remembers where it's gruel comes from and they state it on their licence plates ... It goes something like this "je mes souvien" forgive my pig French, but it translates to "I will remember" ... and now we know what it is they are remembering each election. The vote in enough separatists to scare the hell out of Ottaw and just enough liberals to keep the money coming to pay them off so they don't actually fuck off.

> Alberta seperatism is a real issue

Sure it is. Just like using the notwithstanding clause to override same-sex marriage, maybe end transfer payments, bake a cake. Alberta is a lot of talk, and it's gotten quite old already. You're in a country, deal with it instead of throwing temper tantrums and pitching threats like Quebec does every 20 minutes.

Thinblueliner said: "- create more Ontario's and Alberta's within Canada. That requires wealth creation - a skill that has been stiffled in this country for years."

Perhaps the Liberals are deliberately trying to prevent economic growth in entire regions, and are succeeding- to foster economic and therefore political dependence on them, thus explaining, in part, the inability of so many Easterners to vote anything but Liberal.

The Libs have given up on trying to kill Alberta economically (unless they try NEP II), hence that province's boom...

It's worst in the Maritimes, obviously...

The Maritimes need to get some big, hairy 'nads and start standing up for themselves in the Federation. I'm sick and tired of living in a region of such relative resignation to being have-not.

Why is it we never hear Maritimers themselves (myself being the exception) saying "We can do WAY better. Why settle for this depressing, devastating mediocrity and dependence on the rest of the nation? Let's become self-sufficient and PROUD!"

While I have sympathy for the Alberta separatists, I (being from Ontario) have a better idea.

Ask Quebec to finally go.

Then scrap equilization altogether. You're province should be expected to develope its economy. Those that do it wrong because of socialism, do not get a benefit from poor choices. The main problem with socialim is that there are no consequences to bad decisions.

"The federal government should worry about other things, like trade, foreign policy , customs and immigration."

And they've done such a good job with that too ...

Gee, it's pretty hard for the Maritimes to get any attention in this Federation. Perhaps this is an opening for a great, new, charismatic regional leader with the intelligence and courage to do what's necessary to bring the region to parity with, say, Alberta. Yes, it's possible. Easy it won't be.

Surely I'm not the only Maritimer who cares about his territory...

This country will always be the way it is as long as there are two or more federal parties on the left. With the NDP, Liberal and the Bloc currently holding all the weight - recreating Canada along the lines of their anti-democratic, Marxist thinking, what chance do real Conservatives have?

I think Don Cherry got it right when he observed: The NDP are communists, Liberals are socialists and the Conservatives are Liberals.

To change the current order will require something to happen, unfortunately beyond liberal corruption. Quebec must separate. Or Alberta must.

Either that or civil war.

However unlikely that is, many Canadians feel alienated. Even a lot here in Ontario. Consequently (even if it is only in the mind), there are two Canada's - one for Martin and his criminal cabal, and the historic, decent one for the rest of us.

Fascinating site! I've just discovered it, not being as "web-savvy" as I evidently should be...
I find it very reassuring to discover that I am not a lone voice in the wilderness when I discuss/argue concepts of freedom, libertarianism, and government here in Saskatchewan.
I find myself in thoughtful agreement with the previous post. I think Alberta should take the lead and separate...The shock may actually snap the ROC into the real world! I also would hope Sask. would follow. An old friend of mine, (Sask. ex-pat Mountie living in Alberta) tells me that the population of Alberta roughly consists of 1/3 "original" Albertans, one third Sask. ex-pats, and 1/3 from other parts of Canada and the rest of the world. This may explain under-developed Socialist Saskatchewan and wealthy Conservative Alberta. A portion of Saskatchewan's people equivalent to our ENTIRE present population has moved to Alberta over the last few generations. I suspect the people who moved were more likely to be the hard working, indepent-thinking enterpreneurs...Leaving a higher percentage of nanny-state socialists here to vote NDP. Saskatchewan will only unlock its potential by following a few Alberta examples.

Here's another twist on the question. Imagine trying to sell the Canadian Federal system of government to some other country (developing third world dictatorship or fat and sassy first world democracy)."No, kind sir, you won't be able to vote for half of your parliament, your virtually non-existent foreign policy will be wholly congruent with the business interests one of your most politically-connected and wealthiest families, the sad-sack voters in your largest province will, over the course of thirty-seven years elect a string of lapsed catholic lawyers from your most uncommitted province as Prime Ministers, the Prime Minister's Office will grab vitually all the reins of power with the implicit approval of those same sad-sack voters, the people of your country will come to identify themselves with their third-rate health-care system, the gLue that binds your county together will be a state funded national broadcaster that has an audience of maybe 10% of the people and your country will be governed by the most corrupted and corrupting political party your nation has seen in over 100 years. What's that you say, good sir? We should take our system and shove it WHERE?!?!?!
But, good sir, I've only just begun . . .

If we go there will be trouble if we stay it will be double.

Here, here, for an independant Western Canada.

PS John Crittenden we also have the port of Churchill which is usable for more than 15 days a year. I also think your count of liberals is high I think it's Dave Kilgour.

Will you please stop saying "the West" when you mean Alberta? Will you please stop presuming to speak for the rest of us? Personally, I would love to see Alberta (or, better, Albertans) leave Canada.

Warwick wrote: "Ask Quebec to finally go".

Basically, you're asking non-Quebec (in particular Ontario)to finally call Quebec's bluff and save the greater country by forcing a realignment/partition of Quebec. This could play out in several ways - but I think we are on the long road to this event as a result of growing Alberta seperatist sentiment and political clout.

Ontarians in particular (due to seat counts) will ultimately need to make up their minds wrt what they want the country to look like. Continued statism (Quebec model) or more free-enterprise (Alberta model). So far, we here in Ontario not had to make the critical high-stakes, time-sensitive choice between the two. One can sense the time is coming w/ the new counter-pressure from Alberta (...which is well represented on this site) and an eventual PQ election victory and another never-endum downstream.

"Saskatchewan is more Minnesota than North Dakota and BC is like Washington."

Minnesota is not as leftwing as it used to be. It's a battleground state now, one that almost went for Bush in 2004, and with a GOP senator in Norm Coleman who's trying to make a national name for himself and at the same time build the party there.

"If the Americans did want to take Alberta in as a state, wouldn't they twin it with Puerto Rico? That would give one red and one blue state."

That assumes Puerto Rico wants statehood, which there's no reason to believe it will anytime soon. The last referendum, if I remember correctly, was pretty heavily for the status quo "free association" arrangement, though statehood made a decent second-place showing, with independence WAY behind. Regardless, the prospect of a Spanish-speaking state would open a huge can of worms and I don't know if Congress would let PR in even if they did want it. Letting in Alberta with another more "blue" Canadian province seems to me far more likely.