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Tracked on April 12, 2005 6:59 PM

Interesting article - and funny too. But as for:
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This unpreparedness has become such a joke that Ferguson says their military ranks just above Tonga's, which consists of nothing more than "a tape-recorded message yelling 'I surrender!' in thirty-two languages."
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I don't think that's quite fair - Tonga provided (if I recall correctly) 45 of their Royal Guard to the Coalition Forces in Iraq. That was about half their armed forces.

It's small, sure, but they participated, they helped.

Attacking Canada for your errors in judgement is no answer to your problems.

The mess in Iraq, the quagmire you Americans have created over there, on the basis of the lies of the Bush Administration accusing the Iraqis of having weapons of mass destruction, in contravention of the UN Security Council Resolutions, is YOUR PROBLEM, NOT OURS.

You CREATED A "Big Lie" and now you have to live with it.

You have in fact created another Viet Nam. And sadly the sacrifice of over 55,000 young Americans in Viet Nam has taught this generation nothing about the corruptability of their own political system by men who would misuse the Armed Forces for their own personal gain. "Carpetbaggers" Americans once used to refer to these reptilian life forms after the Civil War.

Well young dead Canadians are not going to be coming home in body bags so Houston Oil Barons could steal other people's resources rather than develop their own.

You also have learned nothing from your own history, and the lessons taught to Americans by Canadians and British military officers out of a barrel of a gun in 1812.

Face facts, this adminstration decided to face off with the world at the United Nations and it lost. Now it proposed to send in a "neocon" bully in the person of Mr. Bolton. He will fail as well because the world is not going to put up with these juvenile temper tantrums in Washington.

Who are these "Houston Oil Barons"?

Name these people. Give us their names.

Name their companies & their URL's.

Hurray for Mr. Bolton and George Bush.

kill osama
bomb damasca/syria off the map
bomb tehran
clean up darfur
come on canada get with the program,flex some muscle

Joe Green,
Gimme a break. You really think 1812 is, like relevant to what is happening at the UN and in the ME?

Well then, get your musket ready for the next invasion.

I'm in a state of bogglement (a particulatly Canadian condition) after reading Joe Green's post.
He certainly doesn't speak for me.
Joe; you ARE a(n) NDP spearcarrier aren't you...?

Joe is a left wing raving communist nutbag, that keeps quoting articals from left woing books that are based on speculation and opinion. Much like the MSM,

He is typical of what's causing articals like Matt's, and does NOT reflect the views of the majority of canadians.

He will continue to argue, yell at his screen, and hound you that his ideology is right.

Unfortunately, all people like Matt here is the trash spewed from people like Joe.

Joe commenting in reponse to that piece is like augmenting the argument with an editorial cartoon....

Can't type this early... :-(

I'll bet you his heros are mel hertig and david suzuki. People like this should seek help, take an ex lax and clean the shit out from between there ears. They have a right to there opinion, but we can no longer stand by and be silient and let them get away with it.

In the lower comments he claimed that democracy was only spreading in the middle east due to civil war. No acknowledgement that it may be because iraq and afganistan have it now, and the oppressed people are rising up and demanding the same thing. No credit to Bush for taking a stand on issues, unlike the wimpy canadian leaders, and who will probably go down in history as one of the top 5 presidents.

There always has been his type, I guess, but our job is to drown him out so we don't get more Mel's.

There always has been his type, I guess, but our job is to drown him out so we don't get more Mel's.

I meant Matt's .... It's to early....

Poor Joe. He really is a parody. He's almost mechanical; you know exactly what he's going to say when you 'drop the dime'. It's going to be absolutism: Canada is absolutely good, right, pure; the USA is absolutely evil, wrong, impure. No facts, no logic, just his ungrounded opinions.

Oh, Joe - it's not a quagmire in Iraq; please don't denigrate the Iraqi people who, in the millions, voted for their own government. Don't denigrate the ground-swell in the Middle East of emerging democracy - replacing corrupt tribalism - all of which are due to the Evil USA and Evil Bush.

And the war of 1812 was a DRAW; nobody won. What lessons?

The UN, by the way, is a totally corrupt bureaucracy, unable to differentiate between a democracy and a dictatorship. Don't let that bother you; continue to worship it.

And I do wish you would learn what the term 'neocon' really means.

Joe's a bore.

Here's a post from the New Sisyphus, on the UN:

because despite all evidence to the contrary, it is simply a matter of faith among liberals that the United Nations is an embryonic trans-national governing body that uses democratic norms to enforce the ever-increasing tangle of legal obligations that will usher in, if not world government, at least an international consensus of good behavior. It simply stuns and amazes us that people continue to believe this despite the record of abject failure of the U.N to act in Bosnia, Kosovo, Rwanda, Cambodia, Iraq and, now, Sudan. Fortunately for liberals, there are always a number of academics to explain why the latest genocide is really the United States’ fault, Rwanda being only the latest example.

Joe- the UN is corrupt and dysfunctional. And the Liberal Party of Canada is corrupt and dysfunctional. I suggest you read a bit on the Desmarais family, and its connections to oil, Chretien, Martin and the Liberal Party.

ET,

He can't do or accept that, it's current information, you have to present an article with a musket in it so he understands.

Dreaded Boink wrote:

"Joe Green,
Gimme a break. You really think 1812 is, like relevant to what is happening at the UN and in the ME?

Well then, get your musket ready for the next invasion."

Well, first you should collect your dead from the War of 1812 and lay them to rest in Arlington before you load up for round 2.

Ever figure out why you call it the White House? Its from the whitewash you had to use after Canadian troops and British officers burned it down the last time, sending Dolly Madison into the night with nothing but her nightclothes.

I would have hoped that Americans since that time would have learned how to "think" and how to avoid war, particularly unnecessary wars.

Now you asked if the War of 1812 had lessons and I say it most certainly did. For one thing it established the modern boundaries between Canada and the US, and these boundaries are more than mere lines on the earth. These boundaries include the limits placed on trade, placed upon communications and other forms of intercourse between these two lands. The reason we have today the longest undefended border in the world is a direct result of the War of 1812.

That war should have proved to the Americans the utter futility of using force on Canadians. It should have proven that its much easier to get results working together with us, than to wage war on us.

And it should have proven to Canadians, that "size does not matter", something that should have been obvious from the earliest sex education classes.

That war should have proved to the Americans the utter futility of using force on Canadians. It should have proven that its much easier to get results working together with us, than to wage war on us.

And it should have proven to Canadians, that "size does not matter", something that should have been obvious from the earliest sex education classes.

Now your a total nutbag Joe, and obviously self conscious about your size..... right hand sore by any chance.

Rob opined thus:
"He is typical of what's causing articals like Matt's, and does NOT reflect the views of the majority of canadians."

Pardon me? The facts are that 60% of Canadians are opposed to the American invasion of Iraq. They agree with the Secretary General and the Canadian Government that its an "illegal war". The percentage rises in Quebec to almost 80%.

And you know what? Canadians from coast to coast are right about this issue. Know something else? Americans are wrong about this issue.

No amount of bullshit from Emperor George Bush II is going to change this, and more bullying by undiplomatic neocons whores like Mr. Bolton is going to change this. They can, and will make matters worse.

I am really tired of the right wing lies being circulated that pretends that Canadians think and feel something other than what they actually do.

One other thing. Just like Vietnam, the Americans are going to need our help to get out of Iraq. We had better start getting prepared for this because without Canadian peacekeepers, the carnage will increase even more.

What is now taking place in Iraq is a civil war that the United States set off between Sunni and Shiite Muslims. Its bloody and its deadly with casualties now running at around 100 a day. That was the sort of killing that took place in Vietnam, day after day, week after week, year after year. It became a quagmire. There is no way out for America except to cut and run, and eventually they will, just like they did in Vietnam.

And its a great pity that Americans are not yet ready to impeach this president for "high crimes and misdemeanors" over his big lies that started this war.

Stay tuned, Lebanon is about to explode in civil war, between Muslims and Christians, once the Syrian troops leave.

By the way, once "Freedumb" comes to Lebanon, is there any hope of bringing to justice those gunman that murdered over 2,000 Palestinian civilians, women and children in the 1980s under the direction of Ariel Sharon and his American partner, George Shultz?

Or are the Americans going to destroy the evidence of the mass killings, just like they tried in Chile?

Here we go with the missinformation, exagerrated statistics, and the usual left wing spewing. Get a brain cell you idiot.

From what your saying, the US will never invade while you hold your imagination on the border.

Put the musket down and come into this century bonehead.

Oh yes, one small detail.

George Shultz, was one of the men behind getting George Bush II to run for President. Another was Casper Weinburger, who also sits with Shultz on the Board of Bechtel. Yes thats right, the same Bechtel that is getting untendered contracts from the US government that amounts to billions of dollars that is part of the effort to suppress the freedom of Iraqis, or more accurately, to take over from Saddam on a "business as usual basis".

In case you missed it, Weinburger is a convicted felon in the US, but that does not stop them and the Military Industrial Complex that is now appropriating the worlds second largest petroleum reserves for itself and its shareholders at Halliburton, Bechtel and other "friends of the republicans".

Ya... OK...Joe

Your twisted little mind can spin a story however you want, but the rest of us ain't gonna believe it...

Joe. How about some FACTS rather than your endless FICTION? Below is a quote from the White House Historical Association.

Apart from your focus on fiction rather than facts, what also puzzles me is your intense hatred of Americans and your complete and utter neglect of corruption in Canada. That suggests delusions.

"Why is the White House white?

It has nothing to do with the burning of the house by the British in 1814, although every schoolchild is likely to have heard the story that way. The building was first made white with lime-based whitewash in 1798, when its walls were finished, simply as a means of protecting the porous stone from freezing. Why the house was subsequently painted is not known. Perhaps presidents objected to the dirty look as the whitewash wore away. The house acquired its nickname early on. Congressman Abijah Bigelow wrote to a colleague on March 18, 1812 (three months before the United States entered war with England): "There is much trouble at the White House, as we call it, I mean the President's" (quoted in W. B. Bryan, "The Name White House," Records of the Columbia Historical Society 34-35 [1932]: 308). The name, though in common use, remained a nickname until September 1901, when Theodore Roosevelt made it official. "

Rob wrote:
"From what your saying, the US will never invade while you hold your imagination on the border."

Nope. Makes no sense and there are afterall, thinking people in the US that can figure out "two plus two equals four, no more and no less".

However, for neocon bullies, they may need a second repeat lesson from the War of 1812.

For Emperor George II to "invade" Canada, that would be his last mistake.

What is the matter Rob, do you not have a backbone?

Are you not prepared to defend your home and country the way you endlessly chatter in your presentations about gun controls?

Well I understand that your knees are knocking, but the Americans pose as much of a threat these days to Canada as did the Soviets in their day. They look scary, but its mostly a mirage. Disinformation is like that.

Besides the obvious question most Americans will ask is "why are we now invading Canada"? Even a lunatic like Don Rumsfeld can figure out that there is no answer to this question.

Gee Joe,

The west just marginallized the eastern mentallity, how does it fill to be on the recieving end.... ET just bitch slapped ya....

Are you not prepared to defend your home and country the way you endlessly chatter in your presentations about gun controls?

Defend it for missinformed exaggerating idiots like you, I think not, I would line up on the americans side and porobably fire the first shot to put you out of your missery.

Another exaggeration What is the matter Rob, do you not have a backbone?, you know nothing about me, I used to fight mil/civil for a living, and don't back down from anything including weasels like you.

ET wrote:
""Why is the White House white?

It has nothing to do with the burning of the house by the British in 1814, although every schoolchild is likely to have heard the story that way."

Look ET, you do not do American youngsters any favours by revising history in this fashion. I know that it does not sit well with many Americans that Canadian and British troops and officers burned down the White House as part of a reprisal for American actions that sacked the town of York, or modern day Toronto. But that is a "fact" of history. And it behooves teachers to try to explain how it was that Americans decided to attack this peaceful town on the northern shore of Lake Ontario in the first place.

If you really want to make a contribution to both American and Canadian youngsters, teach them actual history, without the politically motivated revisionism that is so rampant these days with "neo-conservatives". And take the lesson of history when Hitler tried to "revise" German history in a rather like manner.

The lessons of history are exquisite, and wonderful for youngsters to learn. Because if American and Canadian kids learn the lessons, the longest undefended border in the world will remain that way, since one of the lessons of the War of 1812 was the utter futility by Americans to force anything upon Canada or its people.

Perhaps one of the problems these days is that Pentagon officials like Paul Wolfwitz and Richard Perle were educated in Israel and did not have the benefit of an American education, so they do not appreciate the lessons of history.

Those that do not learn for history, are doomed to repeat its lessons.

Your right ET, he is delusional....... SEEK HELP JOE!!

You won't even accept the facts in front of your face.

Hey joe,

Try this site:
http://www.communist-party.ca/

I'm sure there willing to listen to your insane exaggerrations and spewing.....you never now, it might be an avenue for you to spew your garbage. You should actually join the MSM, CBC comes to mind, you would fit right in.........

Joe- you are the one who is revising history. The White House was not painted 'white' to cover up the torch marks of the Sacred Brits/Canadians fighting against the Evil Americans. It is white to cover up limestone. I admit this doesn't have the romantic heroism of the Fight but in this case, it's fact versus fiction. I opt for dull facts.

America isn't imposing anything on Canada. The Liberals are indeed imposing a great deal on Canada - without discussion, without a Commons vote, without due process. But, don't let that lessen your admiration for them.

Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle BOTH were educated in the USA. Wolfowitz has a BA in math from Cornell, and a PHD from U of Chicago. Perle has a BA from U of S. California and Masters from Princeton. All of those universities - rather goods ones too - are in the USA. So, contrary to your fiction, they factually were educated in America.

Are you saying that if one is educated in Israel then you cannot appreciate the 'lessons of history'? What's that supposed to mean?

I consider it extremely offensive for you to equate Americans with Hitler's regime. More fiction.

Oh - and stop with the pontificating of 'those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat its lessons'. That's trivial and meaningless. History is not an intact data bank but an interpretation and therefore has no singular lessons to give. On the other hand, reason, logic and evidence do indeed provide knowledge. I suggest that you refer to these three: reason, logic and evidence when considering your conclusions, rather than fiction.

Poor Canada! In the exchange of migrating people we get your doctors and entrepreneurs, while you get more folks like Joe Green. We don't need another War of 1812 to wreck the place.

Careful Jeff,

If we all flush our toilets he may be headed back your way... ;-)

If you guys want to see a witless response to this piece in the Standard, head over to blogscanada.ca and check out Norm Spector's diatribe on nazi Germany and gassing babies.

I think maybe he _has_ had a mild stroke. It's ... bizarre.

I'm confused about Norm. is he related to a superior being like Joe who has the ability to change history, or is he an "ilk" like the rest of us.

Don't follow him, he seems like a bit of a dweeb.

New Conspiracy Theory:

Joe (Jaw) is Norm; Norm is Joe (Jaw).

My theory is that Joe was married to an American and went through a bad divorce. (Most of our women down here are great, but we do have a few that can do that to a man.)

Thanks Maz ... .got the picture

Which brings up another question after reading Greg's. Is Joe a man, women or both?

Psychological profile could suggest he goes everyway....

Hmm... Joe's email address would suggest that he is from a local provider, but I would have to sniff Kate's packets for a while to determine what IP it was.

She would probably feel kinda violated, and i'd be in the crowbar hotel for that... ;-)

Norm Spector is still blogging? But he told us all that blogs, bloggers and blogging was the domain of the ignorant, the intellectual illiterates, the depraved and deprived. I don't get it.

Consider this:
"Apart from your focus on fiction rather than facts, what also puzzles me is your intense hatred of Americans and your complete and utter neglect of corruption in Canada. That suggests delusions."

But you see, I do not "hate" Americans. I do not "hate" "democrats". I do not "hate" "republicans".

I do loath "communists". I do loath "fascists". I do loath "neo-cons", which should be abundantly clear from all that I have written.

I understand Americans, admire some of them actually.

But I also insist on their respect for Canadians. And for the most part they do, although there are assholes in the current administration that are too damned dumb to know what they are dealing with, either in Canada or Iraq or the United Nations.

Nor am I afraid of Americans, particularly those that spew threats and violence. In fact, I rather thrive on going into the jungle after them.

As for Greg's speculation, I am not a woman, nor have I ever married an American. I have never been divorced. I do have relatives that I love that are Americans, and who sometimes are afraid to speak up and tell their fellow citizens where the bear shits in the woods.

I have no such fear. Nor do I plan to attend funerals for nephews and nieces in the US because there is a lunatic in the Whitehouse that starts wars and loves mass murder and mayhem.

As for Jeff in Pullman, it seems to me that what this current crop of "neocons" have set off around the globe is rather like the current eruptions at Mt. St. Helen's. It will darken the skies, it will harm much life, but it will not end life.

As for your crack about doctors, fear not. Most are not quite so foolish as to move to the US in order to face malpractice insurance premiums that are larger than what many of them earned in Canada, or what their earnings prospects are in the US. Calm down Jeff, take a deep breath, and the stars will stop spinning in front of your eyes.

To conclude, I don't "hate" Americans. I "hate" your "sins".

Joe,

Now you look for redemption for spreading blantent lies. I think not, you stated your objectives and thoughts clearly in a previous exchange.

ET assures us that:

"Wolfowitz has a BA in math from Cornell, and a PHD from U of Chicago"

Then how come he could not count up the right number of troops for his misbegotten invasion of Iraq? General Shinseki said under oath before your Congress that he needed "several hundred thousand". Wolfwitz said that they did not need anywhere near that number. I would expect that the Chief of Staff would have basic reading, writing and arithmetic skills, so how come Wolfwitz got it so wrong?

Then there is this:
"Are you saying that if one is educated in Israel then you cannot appreciate the 'lessons of history'? What's that supposed to mean?"

Well, I would not expect history students in Israel to focus in on Canadian American History.

And if Wolfwitz did his academics in the US as you suggest, what was he doing in Israel writing papers for the Israeli Government that later got incorporated into US Defence Policy? Were these papers written for the Government of Israel, or for the Government of the United States, or is there no difference as far as Wolfwitz is concerned.?

And what exactly did Wolfwitz get his PhD in? What was his thesis and what was his original research on? As I understand it, and this may be an over-simplification, it was that "unilateralism" was the wave of the future in US Foreign Policy. Did the University of Chicago actually give him a PhD for this???

Or was he part of the Milton Freedmann Group of "neocons" that brought currency speculation to the world?

As for Richard Perle, what did he actually do to earn his Masters Degree? What did he do in Princeton by way of original research that would warrent recognition of original research for a MA?

Finally ET, I wish it would be easy to accept your statements as fact and stand corrected, but with "neocons" its something like dealing with pathological liars, you have to independently check all their statements.

If your information in fact checks out, I will acknowledge that. Now answer me what Perle and Wolfwitz were doing for the Government of Israel during the Clinton Presidency.

And how does the Israeli spies in America figure in this contract by Perle and Wolfwitz as "agents of influence" for the Mossaud?

Joe babbledFinally ET, I wish it would be easy to accept your statements as fact and stand corrected, but with "neocons" its something like dealing with pathological liars, you have to independently check all their statements.

Your are a total laugh. You ask ET to justify his information when you can't even justify your claims and statistics.

he has proven you blatently wrong and you expect us to believe anything you say.

Rob wrote:
"Defend it for missinformed exaggerating idiots like you, I think not, I would line up on the americans side and porobably fire the first shot to put you out of your missery."

Ah, the gang that couldn't shoot straight!

Did you know his girlfriend is an Arab feminist?

Did you know his girlfriend is an Arab feminist?

Ah....that explains it. I wondered were how he MADE UP all these stories.

Hey Joe Green, how ya been?

I loved your Coke commercial. When I recall how you tossed your game jersey to cheer up that young fella, I have to choke back a tear.
You popped back into the public eye just in the nick of time.
I was beginin to believe all that malarkey about freedom and democracy by Bush & Co.

Your ability to parse Mein Kampf, Winston Churchill, a former French Foreign Minister, and The Bible (New International Version) and then synthesize them into an alternative universe is staggering.

I only wish that the NFL had tightened up it's helmet standards while you were playing.

Come back often. Humour is a necessary component to healthy living and some of the stuff at SDA can be a bit of a downer :-(

Exaggerrrating Joe stated:

Ah, the gang that couldn't shoot straight!

Cool.... just keep thinking that Joe. Wouldn't take much to snuf out that single cell organism you call a brain cell, and as long as you believe I can't nail anything.... I guess you have the advantage...... or maybe...

Yo Joe!

Your cheap retort was as amusing as it was pitiful. I am acquainted with a large number of doctors who left Canada. Despite the large malpractice insurance premiums (which are mostly the result of greedy, litigation obsessed trial lawyers - who, by the way, supported Kerry in the last election)have none-the-less decided that they could no longer stomach the third world medical farce Canadian health care has become. Hence, they were tired of seeing their patients needlessly die.

As for "the stars in front of (my) eyes", the only stars there are those that are "big and bright" and "deep in the heart of Texas". May the ghost of Andrew Jackson kick your measly moonbat ass, ala The Battle of New Orleans.

Now that's funny.... Jeff,

One thing, how are they going to tell the difference between his ass and his face......... uh...nevermind, all one and the same...

Crazy Joe, you say stuff like - "Perhaps one of the problems these days is that Pentagon officials like Paul Wolfwitz and Richard Perle were educated in Israel and did not have the benefit of an American education, so they do not appreciate the lessons of history."

And then after someone corrects you (repeating theme?), you are ignorant enough to to reply - "Finally ET, I wish it would be easy to accept your statements as fact and stand corrected, but with "neocons" its something like dealing with pathological liars, you have to independently check all their statements."

Hypocracy, thy name is Green.

I'm looking forward to the day when the new and democratic government of Iraq asks Canada in general and Joe Green in particular "Why didn't you help us?"

The Iraqis aren't stupid, they can figure out why countries that didn't help acted the way they did so I doubt they'll bother asking. The question is, will that change anything? If I were them france for example wouldn't exactly get on their most favored nations trade list.

Crazy Joe is feeling marginalized and oppressed. Now he knows what it's like to be a westerner and live in a land of eastern lunatics.

Joe, you certainly made my day.

Please come around again some time.

How's the musket?

Ruben wrote:

"I'm looking forward to the day when the new and democratic government of Iraq asks Canada in general and Joe Green in particular "Why didn't you help us?""

Canadians will answer "we tried to stop the carnage, but the Americans and the British would not listen. We tried to give the United Nations Weapons inspectors more time to prevent the war, but the Great Satan in the White House was intent upon war."

"Canadians regret that we failed to prevent the deaths of over 98,000 Iraqi civilians, women and children. We regret that we failed to prevent the genocide in Rwanda when American meddling through the CIA at the United Nations prevented General Romeo Dellaire from obtaining the resources and the troops he needed to stop the killing."

"We tried, and we will try again and again until the scourge of war is no more."

That would be my answer for Canadians.

Joe,

Again you try to propagate a total LIE:

"Canadians regret that we failed to prevent the deaths of over 98,000 Iraqi civilians, women and children.

Your quoting the linford report from doctors without borders, which they admitted they guessed at to release it before the us election.

The last estimate for BOTH iraq wars is approx. 17000 you bonehead.

AGAIN, seek help for your pathalogical lying.

ET wrote:
"I consider it extremely offensive for you to equate Americans with Hitler's regime. More fiction."

Can you not read? I did not equate Americans with Hitler's regime, I equated the Bush Administration to Hitler's Regime. Please, for once ET, be accurate.

I made the comparisons about Hitler's lies for his invasion of Czechslovakia to Bush's lies for his invasion of Iraq.

What part of that do you fail to understand???

Genuine democracies do not start wars and they do not wage wars on a mountain of lies.

Churchill didn't and neither did Roosevelt and neither did Truman. No Canadian Prime Minister ever did. This current regime in Washington does not hold a candle to these historical leaders, in fact its akin to Richard Nixon, his sex, lies and video tapes.

Do you remember that little shit that Nixon hired to discredit John Kerry during the Viet Nam War? You should introduce him to Rob, maybe they can get married before its too late.

Heavens man, can you not think for yourself down there, do Canadians have to show you EVERYTHING???

Joe,

Your so anti-American it's pathetic. I've seen some of your posts on the eastern sites and your a total dick. So now you've been labeled a lying dick...

Joe Green, like all lefties in Canada, suffers from the classic little dog syndrome. To be heard, little dogs bark up a storm in a shrill voice, spewing bravado, believing everything that comes out of their mouths. Yet underneath it all is the chief lie on which other lies are built - they are afterall little dogs that believe they are big.

Here's a suggestion Joe: Read Mark Steyn's article, 'The Power behind the thrones.' If you do you'll find out the real reason why Canada stayed out of Iraq. Unfortunately, you'll also be forced to confront the truth about yourself and your beliefs.

The only thing more tiresome than Canadian passive-aggressive anti-Americanism, is the patronizing, selective quoting, 'we're bigger than you' ranting American anti-Canadianism. Surely to God there is enough room in North America for two INDEPENDENT countries proud of their own damn selves without the seeming need to belittle the other. If we couldn't live in our own countries wouldn't we choose the other?

"We're bigger than you"????

Where have you heard that? For the most part, the US has ignored Canada, or looked upon us as a place where bad weather comes from.

That's not the "rant" that's underway at the moment - it's "How DARE you sanctimonious little leeches criticize the very people who have paid for your national defense for the past 30 years"

That, or ridicule for our neglect of same. Both are deserved.

@ cynical joe

Basically, I agree with your observations and pleas of frustration. Either fortunately or unfortunately, until recently most Americans gave scant thought to Canada, if they thought of it at all. Now things are different, and Canada has placed itself, through the foolishness of a very vocal and influential minority, into a position where it is most certainly noticed by Americans, but, rightly or wrongly, more and more Americans have placed Canada into a status that could be deemed "The Venezuala of the North". The reasons behind Canadian hectoring of the US are not known by many Americans. Items such as Upper Canada vs Lower Canada, Plains of Abraham, United Empire Loyalist resentments and traditional suck-ups to Europeans (aka, We're the GOOD people of North America), Quebecois threats to break the place up, an unwillingness to let Trudeupia go, a tragic nationalism primarily based on an inferiority complex, and the plain old power/money hunger of well entrenched interests and their minions of Grits all come to mind. Despite all this explanation and more, it must be noted that alienating your largest business partner when your economy needs all the help it can get is the height of folly. Americans know much more about Canada now, but the thoughts are increasingly bad. Fellows like Joe Green are no different than any other "One World Leftist" that refuses to realize his or her beliefs are the moldering remnants of a failed ideology. One that is now increasingly being rejected by societies that have actually seen that failed ideology's true horrors.

I'll close with one more anaecdote. A Canadian friend once incredulously stated to me, "Do you know that Americans own 65% of the Canadian economy?" To which I replied, "Who sold it to them? Martians?"

Why is all the American bashing a knee jerk sickness that demonstrates Canadian perfidy, but Canadian bashing is always rightous and deserved from an agrieved America? Listen I had some problems with Iraq, but I thought on balance, an invasion was justified; but not the way Bush did it, (WMD for instance) I certainly thought Canada could have and should have contributed to the effort, but I have to admit that the majority of Canadians did not agree with me, and the decision to not participate in the invasion was political reality. Of course all the other anti-american crap about 'morons' and 'bastards' was inexcusable and for the most part those rude creeps were punished, (though not soon enough or severely enough, but let's not go over all that again). But I'm curious as to why a SINGLE decision not to follow along with America has roused such ire. If we are two independent countries wouldn't it be inevitable that eventually our foreign policies might clash? I don't think even the Bush administration thinks that Canada is going to nod along with every single decision an American administration makes, jeez 49% of America doesn't agree with every Administration decision. If every time Canada disagrees with America we're going to be hectored about what ingrates we are, is it any wonder that Canadians develop some sensitivites. I couldn't care less if Americans know who the PM is or the name of Canada's capital city, I'd just like them to realize that Canada has an internal domestic politics too, and similarly not everyone in the country agrees with the government's official position. Is that too nuanced?

Rob wrote:

"Your quoting the linford report from doctors without borders, which they admitted they guessed at to release it before the us election."

I was quoting the Lancet Study, which is a respected British Medical Journal. The study estimated that the Iraqi civilian population suffered between 10,000 and 200,000 dead civilians, women and children with the likely figure at 98,000 due mostly to American bombing and bombardment.

For a good discussion, visit:

http://www.chicagoboyz.net/archives/002543.html

cynical joe wrote:

"Listen I had some problems with Iraq, but I thought on balance, an invasion was justified; but not the way Bush did it, (WMD for instance)"

I agree with you.

Had the Bush and Blair Administration been less hysterical, and had they proceeded in an orderly way to have Saddam Hussein declared a "criminal government" and that the "blue berets" were going to invade and remove him from power, and put him on trial beside Mr. Milosevic in The Hague, most Canadians would have been in full support. Had we done that properly, Al Quada would not have grown from 5,000 terrorists training in Afghanistan to over 200,000 today that have created an "insurgency" and "civil war" inside Iraq today.

And most importantly, had the US listened to its friends and allies more carefully, it would not now find itself dangerously off balance as it squares off against North Korea and Communist China both flexing their muscles against the fragile democracies of Japan and Taiwan. Today the US has tied up over 150,000 combat troops in Iraq, along with another 40,000 from Britain, and between these two NATO countries alone, another 190,000 troops and military personal are in the logistical backup chain of command supporting them.

Nor would have Australians been as strategically exposed as they are today.

But what do I know? I'm "anti-American", right???

And conniving lunatics like Paul Wolfwitz and Richard Perle are going to pull a rabbit out of a hat and fix everything.

Joe wrote,
I was quoting the Lancet Study, which is a respected British Medical Journal. The study estimated that the Iraqi civilian population suffered between 10,000 and 200,000 dead civilians, women and children with the likely figure at 98,000 due mostly to American bombing and bombardment.

Doesn't matter now, you just admitted it was a guess. The actual, and more accurate estimate, of 15-17K also includes all the so called civilians with GUNS in there HANDS.

Gee Joe,

I even over estimated:
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/

I believe Lancet said between 2,000 and 200,000 then they split the difference to come up with 98,000 - obviously math isn't their strong suit (which the press magically transformed into "over 100,000" - a nice round number anyway that sticks in people's heads).

IBC doesn't seem to be terribly pro war but even they say the max is something like 18,000 (I'm rounding up I think).

Well, considering Saddam was murdering something like 700 people a day*, that means the Iraqi people come out ahead after less than a month - and for a change, some of the people doing the dying were the bad guys.

*I've seen numbers as low as 200, I've seen them as high as a thousand, 700 is the most reported average I've seen - if you prefer 200 or a thousand, do the math, they're still ahead.

Agreed Jay,

Also the U.S. has gone out of it's way to try and avoid casulties. In most places they even allow the civilians to leave before going in.

I can't remember if there has actually been a war with a lower civilian body count.

The IBC is an anti war site, but at least there being logical about the process.

I've heard it referred to as "the most humane war in history". The problem is when it's taken as a given. The press keeps referring to every civilian dead as a tragedy, every enemy soldier killed when he didn't (possibly) have to be an act of murder.

The press isn't keeping anything in perspective - millions of innocent people died in WWII and they never reported them as tragedies, it was just recognized as a necessary evil.

If we end up going to war with China, that won't be possible - we're talking about maybe a million dead at a time. The press of course will complain we aren't fighting such a humane war as we did in Iraq, which was "the fourth largest army in the world". Yeah, but it's a mighty big drop after #3 or so.

It might help if the BMD system managed to miss an incoming and Hollyweird got it.

I know, MSM, and a few others, really spun this one out of control taking advantage of the rapid communication era. Problem is most of us now the truth(notice I said most).

Definitely the most humane, you guys have been to nice about it.

Before the BMD hit's Hollyweird, can you make the first one hit Ottawa. I want to see if they ask permission... ;-) .. ....hehe ...the devil mad me say it..

Oh, I'm sure that since the decision was all left in our hands that wouldn't be a problem. Depending on where you live you might want to move a bit westward tho. Alberta? Hey, we gotcha covered.

Okay tho, that brings up a question - from what I read (and limited experience) Alberta is a normal place, "the west" is normal, but what's the "red state" line really include? Is that just Alberta and BC or does that include Sask? Manitoba?

And I sort of assume your west coast isn't anything like ours.

Red States here are Alberta and Sask.. Manitoba is locking forward to a lot of Carbon tax credits for wind energy, so there trying to get close to the libs.. B.C. is fairly left of center with a lot of tree hugers and is an experimental station for drugs.

Not nice statements, but that's how we see it in Alberta, were I am... :-)

Okay, Alberta and Sask - I'll keep that in mind assuming the president calls to consult with me about incoming missiles (okay, maybe a ridiculous idea but no more ridiculous than - well, you know).

BC has the "Left Coast" title hanging on it and it mostly just applies to the Greater Vancouver area and Vancouver Island. The rest of the province is what I would describe as "redneck Union" - pro-union but they enjoy cutting down trees (which brings them a paycheque). Sask is divided like the US, lots of lefties and lots of conservatives with not much middle ground. Manitoba also seems to be like that due to significant pork-barrelling by the feds.

I'm an American who pays attention to Canada, in all its aspects. I have Canadian forebears and Canadian friends, plus I've spent some very good times up there. I may be mistaken, but I believe the Maritime Provinces are as unique a group as the western ones. It seems to me that they tend to be fearful of Quebec and resentful of Ontario. Is this true? Part of my mother's family are UEL folks that wised up and came back to the Great Satan from Nova Scotia many years ago.

Jeff,

That used to be true, they were just as bad as us, if you want to look at ua as bad. Then the Feds started doing a lot of patronage, transfered the air base out of Edmonton to there, started pouring money into the region to gain votes, and now the've shifted left quite a bit.

There is still a lot that are conservative, but now they see a cash cow coming with Carbon taxes from Kyoto, so there shifting a bit more.

There's a heavy push there to get into alternate energy.

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the info. With folks like you, Kate, and quite a few others, Canada should make out OK, at least until the prairie people decide enough is enough. The Liberal's house of cards can't stay up forever (I hope).

I guess I should explain it a little better.

A long time ago the gov here created what's called transfer payments, were the have prov. give to the have not prov., which is ok, but what it's done is create an air of dependency. The feds seen this and by slowly increasing the transfers and at the same time increase immigration with the implant in the newcomers that is they didn't vote for the existing gov., the incoming power would send them home. So they were able to effectively buy votes from both sides.

No one thought much about it until Truedau got in, and then hammered Alberta with the National Energy Program. We wouldn't give in to handing over resource revenue, so he said if we didn't he would destroy us, and he did.

We finally got it out and are now back to normal and the existing gov(same liberal idiots), want to do it again).

I mentioned dependency in the beginning, well now a lot of the country has come to rely on that dependency, and will side with the feds on every issue in fear that they might loss it. The feds learned this also works with corporations etc. so kept it going, thus CBC and others will defend the feds to the death. With the left leaning libs creating more and more dependency, were slowly sinking into communism.

In Alberta we don't like to be dependent on anyone, kind of the red neck cowboy alone on the range, and when you try to force us to be dependent... well partner we get our fur up.... ;-)

A poll taken a year or so ago showed that of all the provinces, Saskatchewan had the highest percentage who favoured joining the US. That wasn't widely reported.

Hmmm, shame there isn't one of those red state/blue state county by county things up there (at least as far as I know). Uh - do you even have counties?

PS: What was the percentage?

Kate,

Your right, we never heard a word about it here in AB. I never heard nothing about it until last weekend on the radio when Warren was on. AB and Sask. should join forces on that.

On a separate note, the PM was here yesterday and they never had a word about it on TV. He wanted to meet with Klein, but he told the PM to forget it. He's kind of upset about the 3 elected senaters that won't get there positions, and the rejection of the health care proposal with no alternate solution or money to solve the problem.

I honestly forget the exact percentage, but something tells me it was in the 20% range.

Well, I've said it before, and now I can see I need to include Saskatchewan.

Alberta and Saskatchewan, if you ever decide to pull the rip cord, we'll buy the beer.

Greg outside of Dallas wrote:

"Alberta and Saskatchewan, if you ever decide to pull the rip cord, we'll buy the beer."

No thank you. I don't like American beer anymore than I like American Foreign Policy.

But Kate might like it. Her friend Grant Devine and his cabinet swear by it.

Don't know about her miniature poodle though. Ezra Lavant loves to lick all sorts of fire hydrants.