Where would we be without experts.

The biggest question in my mind is when have recognized experts ever been correct? I know they have a very long record of being wrong which makes me wonder why they are considered experts. One thing I do know if if the MSM starts beating the war drum I hope the elected officials ignore them or else the people refuse to participate. I know the media tried to drum beat Trump into war with NK and Trump did not comply. However Obama and Bush and Clinton and Harper did listen to the siren drum beat of the MSM as they call the nation to another senseless war.

"With the exception of Gulf One and Afghanistan, none of the sabre-rattling and war of the last 30 years has been worth the price."

1. Compared to what?

2. It's too soon to tell.

....."But the Iraq war optimists paid no price for being catastrophically wrong. Remember those pundits who assured us that the Iraq war would create a democratic, pro-American haven? One with religious freedom?".....

A lot of people guilty of that. Even our favorites of the right, like Mark Steyn. Hell, I even convinced myself the Iraq War was a good thing at the time. Stupid. Of course those folks over there weren't going to transform into a peaceful western style democracy. I'm probably too old for it to matter, but I won't make that mistake again.

I strongly diasgree with the two exceptions.
Gulf I gets a pass because Bush Sr. decided not to go into Iraq and take Saddam out.
But really, why was Saddam's invasion of Kuwait any of the US's business.
And Afghanistan, really?!
Unmitigated disasters, both.

Like Sea Salt, I also briefly supported the invasion of Iraq.
It was an object lesson in propaganda: you think because you're reasonably intelligent and have good brief that you are immune. B L U S H.

Gulf 1 made no sense, and Bush I made that bad decision worse by leaving Sadaam in, which necessitated an ongoing US police operation. Gulf II was necessary because the situation was simply untenable. Sadaam was more and more in bed with jihadis. Gulf II was great at first-no more Sadaam and a free friendly Kurdistan. Then Bush II decided to stay there. Ruinous. Same with Afghanistan: was a quick victory, and then they stayed there.

The proper foreign policy for the Middle East is (and always will be) "Quarantine." Put a wall around it...let them kill each other. Parcel out the land when they're done.

"Nation building" wasn't worth it. Going in there, killing those who dare look funny at us, putting our son of a bitch in charge and leaving them to their own devices should have been the modus operandi. And since the're worthless the collateral damage does not matter. FETE

Lance, you know how to open a can of worms. The writer of the article is right on.

Joe, Churchill was right about the Bolos after the Russian revolution and he was right about Hitler. Thatcher was also right about the Falklands. Other than that, the "experts" pretty much screwed up the ME.

Mind you, the WWI treaty makers screwed up the 1919 peace talks when they ignored Lawrence of Arabia and Ibn Saud, just arbitrarily drew straight lines and carved up the ME. That set the stage for the chaos of today. See Margaret MacMillan, "Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World",

opinions are like assholes.................

What we do not know is what the true motivations of each war is, we only know what those in charge let us know, unless some one "leaks" the info. As far as I'v been able to determine, Iraq 2 was sadam's nuclear program, of which the Jews took care of the other half in 2007

I agree, with very few reservations, on Me No Dhimmi's: December 12, 2017 6:20 PM and Colonialista's: December 12, 2017 7:18 PM comments.

That said, their reservations largely encapsulate my reservations to Lance's post, which except for the previously stated reservations, is generally correct in my opinion.

"What we do not know is what the true motivations of each war is, we only know what those in charge let us know, unless some one "leaks" the info."
~Enemy

Leaks are like assholes too. Especially when you're too old to hold. True motives don't matter so much as results do.
There is no substitute for victory and there is no peace without justice.(and I don't mean social justice)

Some think that WWII was the last war with true victory. I disagree there was victory or justice.

There was undeniable death and destruction. That is all.
We are destined to destroy ourselves until someone saves us from our own nature.
And who can claim to be a selfless savior, not a tyrant, if they are not also our Maker?
None.

I hope you don't mind if I disagree with you JJM but nazism was not defeated or discredited. It remains a vibrant force on the left just like it always was. The only thing that happened was the symbols of the third reich became cartoonish and displays of swastikas were viewed as evil. The main ideology has never been refuted and in fact is very common in today's progressive belief system. The nazis were and remain progressive.

Let me invite the flame throwers to light me up by saying ...

1. The slogan ... Arab Spring ... led to death and destruction throughout the ME
2. Death, chaos, and a collapsing economy in Egypt after the Muslim Bothers hood took power. Egyptians quickly recognized their mistake and tossed out their Spring-fresh-smell of a disaster ... too late.
3. SHE came, SHE bombed, The EU bombed ... he died, SHE cackled. And ISIS found a new base of operations ... Foreign-Embassy-free. The people are enjoying their Springtime suffering.
4. Assad was backed by Putin, who both said RUBBISH to the Arab Spring. Syria will remain under familial “Fascist” control, and remain moderate. Obama made Americans PAY for some half-hearted Spring cleaning ... ISIS were reJuVenated. “Fascist” WINNING is rapidly returning Syria to peace.
5. Obama hung a Spring-scented air freshener on Iraq ... and Yazidi girls were raped and sold into sex slavery (insert weepy-faced Tweet here). Vast tracts of a “pacified” Iraq were radicalized (yeayy went Obama).

I have never liked the fact that I was called all manner of names because I refused to call Assad a ... “Nazzzzi”, a “Gooook”, a “Jap”, a Monster, yadda yadda yadda. Sorry. I don’t buy into “narratives” very easily. And slogans are for stupid people. Sadly ... the vast majority of citizens are easily manipulated