The real cost of solar PV is masked when grid connected. In order to better understand the real cost of solar PV, let’s make a simplified exercise…
The real cost of solar PV is masked when grid connected. In order to better understand the real cost of solar PV, let’s make a simplified exercise…
“Feel free to double check the numbers above. Thank you.”
this little exercise in stupidity is on par with the beliers nonsense, it does pas the smell test. Not that I refute the assumption that PV does not meat grid parity, it doesn’t. But when you refute something at least don’t be like the lefties!!!
My mind Maunders……
(Comment I left on the blog:)
I’ve been saying to people that, when they see the word “organic,” it actually means “expensive”.
Now I know that, when I see the word “solar,” it actually means “expensive”.
Now if we really knew the environmental impact of making solar panels.
From what I’ve heard, homes are eventually torn down. I wonder what the environmental and financial impact is of recycling solar panels, if indeed they are recycled.
All for it if you don’t have access to grid electricity or live in a 3rd world country just to give you the basics. In 1st world countries you are paying big money to make a statement. That being, you are mathematically challenged , you can be sold anything and are easily brainwashed. Just the type of person that would vote for a dismal excuse of a POTUS who still considers CO2 a pollutant. Or the leader of a failed province that still believes anything coming out of Al Gore or Suzuki. Hint….she’s a incompetent lesbian. In certain applications it can be wonderful technology but as a alternate source of power generation in a industrialized society, it’s about a efficient and reliable as windmills.
http://notrickszone.com/2011/07/04/weed-covered-solar-park-20-acres-11-million-only-one-and-half-years-old/
Here are a few thoughts:
Solar installation only makes sense when connected to the grid. The cost of battery storage and inverter (not given in this example) is cost prohibitive.
I question his use of 18% annual solar capacity when calculating solar panel requirements. My understanding is that a 100 watt panel will deliver much more than 18% under ideal conditions. Note that panels are tested under lab conditions – I’ve read actual capacity is about 75% of rated capacity in the real world. The actual delivery depends upon angle of the panels, season, etc.
I expect a Tesla battery is cutting edge technology and there are less expensive alternatives in lead acid batteries.
Disclosure: we have a 155 watt Go Power panel on our Airstream trailer. No inverter as it’s too expensive so we only power the 12 volt systems (lights, furnace fan, etc.). We can operate indefinitly when in the southwest (i.e. sunshine) and for extended periods in Canada assuming no shade (and not using the furnace). We bought a Yamaha 2000 watt generator and have only needed it occaisionally when camping in a shaded spot in Norther B.C. and Yukon this summer. We have found it much cheaper to buy a generator than fool around with an inverter and increased battery storage (weight, space and cost issues)
Tesla batteries are lithium batteries same as any others just wired together
Tesla batteries are the same lithium batteries as everyone has just wired and made to look pretty, might have a cooling fan in there
Our Ontario provincial government is addressing any such pricing disparity by falsely inflating the cost of hydro power to their captive consumers over the coming years.
This is known as “social engineering” in progressive (Liberal/NDP) circles.
Greenpeaces ships and boats dont run on sails they still use diesel and gasoline to power their garbage scows and those annoying zodiacs for Greenpeace to oppose oil drilling is Hypocracy at its highest
It’s not possible for a panel to reach 75% capacity – the sun is only up 50% of the time. And as the angle of the sun changes through the day and many days are cloudy 18% seems pretty reasonable.
This is a perfect illustration as to why these PV panels are not
(and never will be) practical. You could every square
inch of your roof and never achieve energy independence!
I tell every friend, relative and acquaintance who asks me about
these things to “Run like hell!” from the salesman attempting to
pitch this con. If you feel the need to get reamed, it is better
to visit the restroom your local park.
” No inverter as it’s too expensive so we only power the 12 volt systems (lights, furnace fan, etc.)”
What is the etc. ?
Would that be the actual furnace?
Maybe the stove ?
How about the hot water heater ?
Are any of the above used or even necessary?
What do you do in the winter?
IMHO, you have shown a system that is a luxury.
I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that powering minor appliances in a trailer during the summer months, does not qualify as an argument that solar power is the way of the future.
However, telling others about it may make you feel warm and fuzzy on a cold winter day.
Lithium batteries only make sense when you are concerned about weight. In a Tesla, yes. In your basement, no.
I think you’v miss read cyclist. Most trailers have LPG hook ups, soooo, furnace, water heater, stove, etc., can all be LPG, except for the furnace blower 12v, lites 12v and possibly a pump or so. His scenario is very doable, economic, and “smart”. One of the few areas I used to agree with north of 60 was were he stated that solar and wind were beneficial in remote areas. Solar is also good in cyclists application. On the farm we used to charge batteries that powered electric fences. This was safer and cheaper than alternatives. In cyclists case it is convenient, as not every were you go camping or do nite lay-overs have available power hook ups
Hey Kate…love your site…but buddy has math right…but the economics wrong. He makes no accounting for electricity price inflation. The price of electricity wont still be 0.18/kwh in 20 years….redo math compounding average inflation rate for 20 years. Then you’ll get the real number.
Gord:
You misunderstood my comments. What a solar panel is rated for is different than what it’s actual output will be, The former is the design specification, the latter refers to real world conditions (darkness, cloud cover, etc.). As an example, I’ve had a charge rate as high as 8.9 amps which is about 105 watts. This happened in the Grand Canyon last April under perfect conditions: the battery was low (charge rate higher), bright sunshine erectly overhead and moderate temperature. A more typical charge rate is about 6 amps or about 70 watts. The panel is flat mounted with a slight tilt due to the curvature of the roof so I almost never get the optimal angle. This was the easiest installation.
Wallyj:
The 12 volt system consists of the propane furnace fan, fan hood over the stove and lights (halogen) over the stove. These are the big users – I’ve read somewhere the furnace fan uses about 8 amps and can suck a battery down on a cold night. The remaining uses are lights (LED), portable inverter for charging cell phones/laptops, water pump, propane sniffer and refrigerator electronics. The fridge itself runs on propane when off grid.
Of course it’s a luxury, this allows us to boondocks away from wretched RV parks in places where there are no services. The Yukon Territorial parks have no services and the northern B.C. parks likewise. Running a generator all the time is a real pain so the solar is great. No maintenance after two years. The Mather campground at Grand Canyon National Park has no services either; the same for the beautiful Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument in the Sonoran Desert. There are abundant BLM sites in the western U.S. as well a National Forest sites almost all of which have no hook-ups.
For off-grid uses, solar is almost a mature technology and a very large component of RV’ers have some type of installation. The only evolving technology is battery and this has to do more with shrinking the size and weight via lithium. Lead acid batteries are very heavy and the AGM batteries like we have are great but expensive.
We have gone for a week at a time in Utah and up north – our limitation is water and a dump station and not electricity.
“He makes no accounting for electricity price inflation. The price of electricity wont still be 0.18/kwh in 20 years….redo math compounding average inflation rate for 20 ”
But the lifespan of the entire system is only 20 years (with luck) and then it will all have to be replaced. With the new inflated price. Yup….redo the math and then see if it still makes sense. No such problems with the grid.
Yup….redo the math and then see if it still makes sense.”
Screw the math. They’re pretending to solve a problem that doesn’t even exist.
To play with the math is to stipulate that the nonexistent problem they’re trying to solve needs solving.
To participate in solving the problem is to de facto agree that the nonexistent problem exists in the first place.
They win, we lose.
The game is rigged, the only way to win is not to play in the first place.
To put it another way, don’t get bogged down in the technical minutia with these A-holes.
There is no Global Warming and there is no Oil Shortage.
The problem you’re aiming to solve doesn’t exist. It just doesn’t.
No solution, however perfectly conceived and executed, is acceptable to a problem that doesn’t exist in the first place.
If it Ain’t Broke, Don’t Fix It.
Have we solved all the other World Problems? How about NO!
Then why are we wasting time, mental energy, and treasure to solve a problem that DOESN’T EXIST?
Even if the Warmist answers to the Global Warming ‘problem’ are wrong, showing them how and to what degree they are wrong in their solution…
IS A TACIT ADMISSION THAT THE PROBLEM EXISTS TO BE SOLVED.
It just doesn’t.
Pretending there is a problem a long with them, is to BE part of the problem.
Don’t find fault with their solution, just say “There IS NO Problem.”
It’s a pretty useless rant. The author has a total cost of $145,000 for which $120,000 is reserved for Tesla batteries. $145,000/168,000 kWh is 80 cents a kWh. All the author has proven is that Tesla batteries are expensive.
Replace Tesla batteries with lead-acid and the price falls to 18 cents a kWh (assuming $5,000 for battery banks over a 20 year period that are large enough to store 1 kW daily). So it looks as though the author has proven that solar IS competitive.
I looked at solar because my house is 1.2 km from the main delivery line and (I found out after an ice storm) I own 1.2 km of power lines, whether they are up or down. I average about 4 kW per day (four times the article) and the cost for solar (not including battery backup) was over $60,000. There was also the likelihood that the solar array would not supply enough power in the mid winter (mainly sun angle) so I would need a 15 kW propane generator backup or have to stay connected to the main grid. Another $10,000 plus installation plus the main panel had to be rewired to keep the solar and propane power off the main line. Total cost $80-90,000.
I use about $6,000 worth of electricity each year (actually I only use $3,500, the rest is user fees, delivery charges, taxes and debt reduction). This works out to a 12 – 15 year pay back. To most people, even home owners, a payback of 10 years or higher isn’t worth it.
Some large birds(Eaglges,Hawks,Vultures)need hot air thermals to rise and soar on so where ver Obama,Al Gore or Greenpeace is theres the Hot Air they need
If they can reduce the manufacturing time for the solar PV panels down to just one second per panel, then it would only take 930 years to make all the panels needed to supply the U.S. with the required electrical power.
Hmm! pity the panels only have a lifespan of 25 years.
From WUWT: Going Solar: System Requirements For 100% U.S. Solar Generated Utility Baseload Electricity
This debate exists only because we live in socialist / fascist states where energy has been taken over by the state or left in private ownership but under state control through mandates, regulations, taxes, subsidies, green theocracy etc, features typical of fascism. Leaving the argument for state regulated utility (grid) distribution aside, why must energy generation be a political decision and not left to the market. Off-grid use of alternatives is a market decision and likely rational (without subsidies). Grid power is a whole different question and one where wind and solar are a disaster.