I'm Not Jumping Through Hoops for 10 Years

Guy sounds like he got turned down at McD's.

I beg to differ somewhat with the Captain, as he is describing coastal America. My youngest nephew lives in Ottawa. Started working at Superstore Deli when he was 16. Really did not know what he wanted to do with his life after school (he did very well FYI), so continued working at the Deli. Showed up for his shifts, got on with everybody (workers and customers), worked extra shifts when others did not show up. Was asked to be acting deli manager when the manager went on vacation and now he is the actual manager of the deli. He is now 24, quite enjoys working for Superstore and says the real money is in being assistant or store manager. I think he will become one before he is 30. I agree not everyone will be the superstar, but you can still have a very good life and pay your bills.

There was a time when a bright high school grad could:

1. go to normal school for a year and become a perfectly capable teacher;

2. enter the armed forces as an officer cadet and, following the requisite training, become a perfectly capable watch officer, platoon commander or pilot;

3. join a bank as a trainee with an excellent chance to become a bank manager...

Well, I could go on but the point is this: we have now so "overcredentialized" our society that you practically need a three-year technology certificate to stock shelves at Walmart.

We put young people through kindergarten, elementary and seconday school for almost 14 years in some cases now and yet they're STILL not considered vocationally "ready".

That suggests nothing less than a massive FAIL for our education system.

It drives me slightly mad when I see a requirement for a bachelor's degree to get a flying job. In my experience, most people who invest the time and money in a degree want to use it in a related field. Re: the 18-year-old joining the Armed Forces, I did just that; my commissioning scroll is dated October and I turned 20 in December. I retired as a senior office and only got a degree when I was 54 years old and that was in case I needed it for a second career. Aviation studies courses would pick as a teacher a 9,000-hour aviator with a degree over a 12,000-hour pilot with a high school diploma. The Captain makes sense, many job requirements do not.

In my humble opinion the Captain nails it once again. There is very little correlation between education and intelligence although the youth of today has been brainwashed to believe otherwise. A trade that's in demand can bring greater reward and job security than a Masters no one needs. Universities would fight that simple concept tooth and nail because their very survival depends on it. There are far too many staffed by professors that are often tenured in a world completely removed from reality, imposing their view of the perfect society to students oblivious to the fact they are learning nothing of value. Garbage degrees are now common at incredible cost while industry is screaming for qualified trades people. Can't teach common sense and no one listens anyway. The only constant is the 20/20 hindsight waiting sometime in the future.

No it's a continuation of the education industry they work with the others industries like oil and gas , medical, you name it they work in tandem with the gov !! They do this because at one point there was more ppl than jobs now they created this huge education beurocracy and now there are more jobs than "qualified "people lol !! I remember when if you wanted to be a doctor you followed a doctor for a very long time , a welder you did the same a pilot the same now a "school "teaches you cause everyone has to pay the price!!

Captain, that was well said, as were the comments of JJM, Aviator, and Peterj.

I believe that many organizations require higher degree credentials in order to boost their prestige with the end game of charging higher fees. As well, for the educational system it is a form of a puppy mill churning out useless degrees in the real world which saddle the students with long term tuition debts for years to come.

Yup, Captain nails it again....
Let's take an inventory in my immediate and extended family:

Uncle on Mom's side - no University degree, from grade twelve worked his way up from Lineman to Super, to Mgr, to Exec in Bell Canada...God rest his soul, past away 2 years ago.

My Father in Law - his Father died when he was 13, had to run the family farm with his Mother until his much younger siblings could contribute. When he turned 18 joined the military as a non-com, after x number years became senior non-com, his Officer in Command rec'd him for officer training because of his superior command skills and intellect. He went thru basic, Jr Officer for years and started all over again essentially. He advanced all the way to Major as the head of Logistics in Air Command world wide. Then retired and started a new career as a contributor to his community. Recently he was awarded the Queen's Jubilee medal for his contributions to our community. All done with Grade 12 education.

My Brother in Law - Grade 12, Entered ROTP out of high school. Went on to become Jet Jockey and training officer. Retiring soon as Captain.

Finally myself - 2 year Tech School diploma, started as cook and dishwasher in restaurants. Went on to complete Chef training, be a senior mgr and systems and training mgr for a Corporate HO. Finally to own, manage and finally retire and sell my own restaurant at at a profit. Because of advanced ability and aptitude with computer tech went on to manage and sell computer tech equipment successfully as a Sale Mgr. Then because of my Agricultural background growing up and my intrapersonal skills now successfully sell Ag products all over Western Canada.

I am encouraging my boys to become trades-men as we sorely need that now and it will be rewarding thru their lives to them and others.

The Captain is bang on.

Response to: "Guy sounds like he got turned down at McD's.

Posted by: bigcitylib on September 25, 2013 6:23 PM | Reply "

Well bigcitylib if you actually visited his site and read his blog you might realize it's an overall dialogue on U Ed; over priced, prolonged, brainwashing (little independent thought) and certainly doesn't make leaders/commanders/entrepreneurs but dependents/milkers of our tax dollars more often than not.

We serve our society through being leaders/commanders/entrepreneurs and net contributors while the Uni-crowd more often than not, unless science, medical, engineering or math related generally end up in Gov't or Cadre related corporate entities ie. Exploitive or pay based on taxation/exploitation.

More Big City Libs need to get this. I won't hold my breath. I'm not sure who's going to fund/lead your Air-Fairy idea of a world once we are gone. Good luck when we are gone.

The Captain nails it as usual. As someone who's been essentially self taught in most academic fields, I find the increasing credentialism very loathsome. The way I see it is that there are two primary types of knowledge acquisition. The type that the education industry claims they're the only ones who can provide, just require a person to have sufficient discipline to read the necessary books, work through the exercises and they're as or more qualified as the products of the education industry. I have no trouble with the concept of an examination to prove ones knowledge, but now one is less and less able to write an exam to get a given credential without taking years of useless coursework.

The second type of knowledge acquisition is one that requires an apprenticeship with a master of a skill in order to pick up the necessary knowledge. This applies to trades, medicine, scientific research and certain arts. Generally, one can figure out all of the things on ones own but it's a lot faster to work with a master of the art to find out all the shortcuts and heuristics involved in becoming a successful practitioner of that skill.

Given the progressive decline in academic standards in the education system it's clear that the education industry is an utter failure. This is one of the last bastions of society that refuses to accept new technology insisting that sufficient time spent sleeping in a classroom is more important than actually knowing the subject material however acquired. One of my primary conflicts now is with credentialed computer science majors who, finding out that the complete formal education I've had in this field was one evening FORTRAN course taken in 1968 (just to get access to the UofC mainframe), immediately become arrogant and tell me I shouldn't be telling them how to do their job. With some 45 years of programming and digital hardware experience, I understand the system that I'm critiquing far better, and at a much lower level, than they ever will. Such arrogant and ignorant credentialed morons seem to be a staple in hospital IT environments.

There are people who believe they have to go to class and it was an interesting debate in the academic portion of my med school between those who just had to be at every class and those of us who took turns in taking notes and then reading through the material on their own. I worked at programming for 2 years during that time and much of my studying was done on planes and in airports while flying back and forth from Calgary to Vancouver. I wasn't the only one who found much more productive ways to utilize their time during the academic phase of study rather than sitting in very low information transfer rate classes.

When it comes to deciding if I'm going to fly with someone, I'll pick the pilot with 10,000 flying hours rather than the guy with 5. However, if I want an accountant, I'd much rather see the guy who studied on his own time and easily passed an exam rather than the guy who just physically spent 4 years in class and barely passed his final exam. The difference is that the pilots time was spent actively honing his flying skills (assuming he was a bush pilot) whereas in an academic discipline it's just a matter of having the correct knowledge base to apply to a given problem. Maybe the pilot example wasn't the best given that airliners now almost fly themselves and spending 10,000 hours in the pilots seat watching what the computer's doing isn't even close to 10,000 hours flying a bush plane in all types of weather.

Cap nails it. Same thing happens in the Engineering field.

Background:

In the US, to offer engineering services to the public and use the title "Engineer", one must be a licensed Professional Engineer (PE). This is required by law.

For example, in Texas the use of the title "Engineer" by a non-PE is a class A misdemeanor punishable by a fine of up to $3000 and up to 1 year in prison. Each day of violation counts as a separate charge.

To become a PE, you need to first be an EIT (Engineer-In-Training). To become an EIT, you need to pass the FE (Fundamentals of Engineering) exam. As an EIT, you must be in practice, under the supervision of a PE, for at least 4 years before you can take the P&P (Principles and Practices)exam to become a PE.

Basic summary: FE exam + 4 years supervised experience + P&P exam = PE.

My story:

I've been a software engineer working on safety and non-safety control systems of nuclear power plants for 7 years. I know more about software engineering, distributed process control/automation, and commercial nuclear power than 98% of people working in those fields. I can throw down and prove this when needed.

I could pass both the FE and P&P exams right now. In addition, I have been repeatedly asked by the IEEE to be a participating author/reviewer of the Software Engineering Body of Knowledge (SWEBOK)--which is the text upon which the Software Engineering P&P exam is based.

But, because my computer science degree isn't from an ABET accredited institution, I am ineligible to even sit for the FE exam.

The ABET is pay-to-play pure and simple. They and their partners at NCEES (National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying) have successfully lobbied most state governments to make it nearly impossible to become a PE without a degree from an ABET accredited school. Additionally, they have worked it so that in a few years you will need to have a master's degree from an ABET accredited school to become a PE.

So here I am, an experienced engineer who has been asked to author/review the authoritative text in my field upon which the Software PE exam is based, and I can't even sit for the FE exam to become an "Engineer-In-Training".

Depending on what state I choose, I might be eligible to sit for the FE exam in 4 more years. 11 years of engineering experience to become an "engineer-in-training". An additional 4 years as an EIT, will make it 15 years of experience to become a PE. That's considered "fast track" for someone who "doesn't have a degree"--it normally takes 20 years. There are about a dozen states which will never grant me PE comity, because I "don't have a degree". I could have authored/reviewed the SWEBOK, both exams, be an IEEE Fellow, and a board member of the NCEES and they still wouldn't do it.

If I was a young man I would be taking a trade or failing that be up north in the oil patch. The opportunity still exists in the oil patch for untrained workers to gain 'hands on 'experience which leads to better opportunity. A degree might get you in the door but being able to deliver gains serious advancement.

IMO most success comes to those who have their heads on straight(have a plan), can work and have the ability to solve problems. Those that do not generally fall by the wayside or find a place to hide within a corporate or public bureaucracy. They are usually very good at demanding what is owed them not what they have actually created.

Educational economic suicide. Academic avarice.
Two sides of the coin called credential-ism.
Brought to us by Feminists looking to jump Seniority with experience in fields they had previously shunned.
For "Progressives" it has the enhancing effect of putting off family's to almost to late, while indoctrinating more collectivism.
The family with childbirth rate goes down, while Immigration goes up.
You have adults practically loan slaves to loans till their 50's. So banks are happy too.