We Don't Need No Stinking Giant Mirrors

Kate had a thread about solar panels some time ago that was fascinating and very informative. A German engineer and a German physicist did a paper showing that even with the latest models, there are no solar panels that even under optimum conditions produce as much power before MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) as is used in their manufacture. From an engineering standpoint therefore, solar panels make no sense and are only economically viable because of ridiculous wasteful tax credits and subsidies, all in the phony name of "Green".

The article does not say where the solar panels are installed but there are enough references to desert and Google to infer they are talking about California.

If you can't get solar to work in California, then you can imagine how useless they are a thousand miles North.

Current dogma to build LEED rated buildings with exotic untested technology will be seen in a few years as an extreme folly. Too bad the governments and companies your pension plan is invested in eagerly embrace these follies.

Kate had a thread about solar panels some time ago that was fascinating and very informative. A German engineer and a German physicist did a paper showing that even with the latest models, there are no solar panels that even under optimum conditions produce as much power before MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) as is used in their manufacture. From an engineering standpoint therefore, solar panels make no sense and are only economically viable because of ridiculous wasteful tax credits and subsidies, all in the phony name of "Green".

I didn't know that Solyndra's tubular reflector was shadow blocked by the collector core, but about two seconds of thought shows that to be true. Obviously it -has- to be shadowed, making the entire collector array on the back side of the core useless.

How many billion did Solyndra get from the Feds again?

Oh, and for the True Believers out there, why are solar arrays not erected for emergency power anywhere in the world? Ever? Because they don't work, is why.

Everyone at Google including the janitor and the flies on the wall vote Democrat, so they have nothing to worry about because they will just get a "grant" from Obama to make the project "profitable". Google has been engaging in pseudo-science for a very long time when it comes to "green" projects.

Now if Romney wins, hopefully all this fraudulent use of taxpayer money will come to a very quick end.

And, of course, nobody tallies the energy used to create the solar panels in the first place and subtracts that from any savings.

And, of course, nobody tallies the energy used to create the solar panels in the first place and subtracts that from any savings.

I believe this is a mis-leading article, but it has valid points.

Wind and Solar do work but:

A. They require maintenance and care
This includes ZERO shade and regular cleaning
It also needs to be set up right
They do not work at night

B. Wind is not reliable (*DOH*)
Wind is VERY VERY tough on machines.
this means regular maintenance

C. They both degrade over time

BOTH of them are costly per KwH and esthetically dubious.

The unfortunate result of these items is that they do not scale. You can power your house nicely on them ( if you have extreme power management and big batteries and do not mind paying a lot of money for each watt and having a back up gas genny for when you really need some oopmh, so long as you keep fiddling with them ( cleaning, turning them, etc...) but that doesn't mean you can power a town or a civilization.

The second unfortunate result is they are *wildly* uncompetitive with conventional power sources. (were not talking 10% less efficient, we're talking 4 to 10x ( 400% to 1000%) or more.

If the HUGE wind and solar subsidies stopped tomorrow, they'd both go back to being niche power gen options for isolated sites/special conditions.

Trying to make them "power the world" was/is ( and will continue to be) dumb unless there are breakthroughs in power storage and efficiency. (Not engineering breakthroughs, "understanding of physics and materials" stuff where people get Nobel prizes for having 40lb brains and seeing something amazing that we lessor mortals cannot even comprehend.)

That is not what Google say’s on their website:

“In 2007, we installed the largest corporate solar panel installation of its kind—1.7 MW—at our Mountain View campus. It generates enough electricity to power 30% of the buildings on which it sits. And unless it rains for two years straight, it’ll pay for itself by 2013.”

http://www.google.com/green/energy/

BTW: Google uses enough electricity to power 200,000 homes, with data centers around the world, continuously draw almost 260 million watts — about a quarter of the output of a nuclear power plant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/09/technology/google-details-and-defends-its-use-of-electricity.html?_r=0

Well I am Shocked! Just shocked I tell you.

Maybe we should keep this information away from the likes of Gore, Obama and Dulton. Might be too hard for them to take.

I mean, these guys bought into the global warming thingy that resulted in policies that diverted hundreds of $Billions from the public purse, money that could have paid for public schools, health care, improved roads and bridges, hardening of the electrical grid so it wouldn't be vulnerable to "Sandy" events. You know, Infrastructure - some of it shovel ready even.

All that money, all the good that could have been made and all for costly economic failures in pursuit of public policies pursuing the ghost of ecological and moral superiority.

Sad really, because there is always an opportunity cost.

It was in the debates that Mitt made a very apt observation, but nobody picked up the application. “Obama keeps investing in Companies”.. The Stupid think that Science R&D will follow, but R&D must lead! Research & development of the science MUST be completed before becoming Investor worthy. It should have been obvious that Solyndra knew that they had a slim chance of "business" success.

Obama & the sluts are not investing in Science and research; they are flushing money by investing in "Companies" dependant on past (dated) technology. .

ES, Google is in effect lying by not telling the whole truth about their solar panel installation. They conveniently don't tell you what that 1.7 MW is actually costing them over the lifetime of the panels.

This is the problem with rich leftists, they are hypocrites to their very core.

I guarantee you Google is not running their data centers on solar power.

Google also lies through its teeth about a lot of things; I wouldn't take their claims about "paying for itself by 2013" terribly seriously.

Looks like these folks learned solar panels were a waste of time too.

http://notrickszone.com/2011/07/04/weed-covered-solar-park-20-acres-11-million-only-one-and-half-years-old/

Looks like these folks learned solar panels were a waste of time too.

http://notrickszone.com/2011/07/04/weed-covered-solar-park-20-acres-11-million-only-one-and-half-years-old/

In the Coast Guard we used Solar panels quite a bit and had success with them. They need major work about every 5 years, but before it was yearly trips packing 10-12 100lb drypacks up slipperly rocks. Mind you the power requirements are low. I am slowly building a solar system at our cabin to supplement the gas lights and provide recharging for electronics. Solar and wind is excellent for remote homes and stations. But you need to do your homework. the biggest user of "Green power" in the US is the military.

What Fred2 and Colin said.

Solar works, when it is an appropriate choice for the job. There are literally hundreds of small-scale solar arrays within a few miles of me, powering instruments and telemetry at oil and gas wellsites around here. Much cheaper, and quicker to implement, than building a pole line to bring in grid power. Sure it costs a lot more per kWh for solar power, but little power is needed, and the up-front costs to bring in grid power can be huge. It's the overall life-of-project costs that matter.

Solar is appropriate for small power demands over a long term in remote areas. As an alternative to grid power, with grid power already on site, no. As a contributor to the grid, no.

I have some of those little cheap-crap made-in-China solar yard lights, and while some have failed early, a few are still soldiering on. They don't provide much useful light, but they serve as path markers, which is all I really wanted.

unintended consequences...

The Bow Tower in Calgary makes like a giant parabolic collector around 4 pm MST at this time of year.

Too bad all that reflected Gaia sunlight causes adjacent buildings cooling systems and elec consumption to ramp up!

As a few commenters have noted correctly... solar panels make sense in isolated cases where there is no other power or limited power sources. Cabins, remote instrument sites, beacons and so.

Remember that the underlying plan of the green terrorists and their political stooges ... WAS ... IS ... and CONTINUES to be the undermining and destruction of the traditional energy resource infrastructure. From the legislation to hamper and shut down fossil fuel operations to the blocking of pipe line and power grid development and upgrades to the destruction of hydro-electric dams. Lets not forget the quiet neglect of and failure to build new nuclear power plants. Their end game is to destroy the real and viable power systems to make everyone everywhere dependent on the inefficient and unreliable "renewables".

The enemies of our economic prosperity and real progress are all about destruction and regression. They want our nations to be weakened.

Google forgot to google.

Al Gore has a whack a money in Google....major shareholder....

Jus' sayin'.........

I assume Kate is being facetious - but, anyway, a typical applied physics, chemistry, or materials science research/engineering research project would begin with pencil and paper work,
then lab work, to determine broadly what works and what doesn't, how susceptible the devices are to small manufacturing flaws, dirt, minor human misuse etc.
If everything is positive at this stage then a pilot plant follows. Only then is the process or device ready for large-scale application. Each of the stages is difficult BTW.

Companies such as Solyndra were born rotten, I am convinced. There was no care as to whether they would ever work. They were designed to funnel public monies into private pockets,
and did so with great efficiency.

Posted by: John Lewis at November 6, 2012 9:14 PM

Lewis haul that 100 Lb pack a hundred KM into the middle of nowhere.

You smell of University Intellectual

Armchair Quarterback.

When you get back from the weeds and bugs,

maybe we can talk.

Dale

"Companies such as Solyndra were born rotten, I am convinced. There was no care as to whether they would ever work. They were designed to funnel public monies into private pockets,
and did so with great efficiency."

I was in gold exploration in the 80’s . The same semi-crooked to outright crooked mindset there, formed in the alternative energy market including independent power production. In mining it was far easier and cheaper to mine pockets of investors than to put a hole in the ground or in the case of Windy crag, mine the taxpayer pocket. The long term problem as pointed out to me by the owner of a large successful mind is that these scammers drain investment capital from legitimate projects and scare away other investors. The alternative energy markets need to clean house and be realistic in promoting the value and limitations of their products.