What We Really Need Is Democracy

Hey, the Chimp in Chief got EXACTLY what he wanted. Now his Brothers in Islam are in a great position to destroy them evil CHOOOS in Israel. And yet the Praetorian Guard continue to spit on their oath to the Constitution and instead grovel before Him and the REST of their Masters.

May they rot in hell for what they have done.

Of course all the western leftards/retards will be twisting themselves into pretzels explaining how the Egyptians just didn't do it right,and they need another Arab Screw-up to get it right.
I am so amazed that psychs haven't listed the suicide cult of the leftards as a mental disease yet.(but then most psychs are leftards.Psychs...heal thyself!)

We seem to be making our way around the Med, destabilizing one benign country after another.

And then having them replaced with anti-western Islamic governments. Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, and soon, Syria.

(the deaths of almost 1,000 protesters)

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kinda reminds me of that evil,
1,000 Katrina Dead Black people,

1 trillion dollar deficit,
tax cutting,

President George W. Bush.

Democracy will always give
you the leaders you vote for and deserve..

Ah, yes, the "1,000 Katrina Dead Black People" attributed to President Bush. It is perhaps not surprising that someone who thinks that if you make a lie big enough and repeat it often enough people will believe it goes by the name of "Fearless Leader".

Anyone notice how since the so called International Court of Justice set up by the UN, none of the tyrants want to leave their seats of power and all seem to fight and kill and butcher to the very last bullet. I think the UN court idea is backfiring and causing the death of many more hapless citizens, because the tyrants have nothing to lose now. They all fight to the end. As Obama and the idiot Cameron, the UK yapping dog keep deposing one after the other, the void or vacum is quickly filled by even more malignant butchers. The msm is silent now about Libya, Tunisia etc, but the butchery continues each day... Canada should stay out of all foreign adventures and close its borders tight to all Moslem Murder Cultists.

We need to destroy Syria and fill it up with Iranians.

Just keep spreading shit all over The Meddle East.

"Fearless Leader".
Posted by: Roseberry

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Welcome,

You must be a newbie.

You saying that the, let me get this right now, 'forces of light and freedom' ain't exactly that?

You saying that the, let me get this right now, 'forces of light and freedom' ain't exactly that?

Ah yes justthinkin, as the bumper sticker in Calgary said, "Yes Virginia, Liberals Really Are That Stupid". On his other side was another one, "Liberals Make Me Puke", he had it figured out I'm thinking.

So all the MSM and liberal intelligensia were wrong when they said that freedom would now reign in the arab states? How can that be, they are right all the time! Could they have made a mistake, maybe they didn't raise their head out of their oatmeal latte to see the real world as it disintegrates into chaos and murder?

I think it is naive to expect that infrastructural change - anywhere - functions as a gradual, progressive and harmless process. Such a transition from tribalism, from dictatorship, to democracy, hasn't ever occurred in the history of men.

It's a tectonic shift not merely an expansion of an already-existent infrastructure. That means first, the dismantling of the old infrastructure. In this case of the ME tribalism, this means the dismantling of multi-centuries of kin-based alliances. Second, it means the flinging aside of centuries of ideology and the opening of closed minds to debate and discussion. It took the West 400 years to make the structural change from medieval tribalism to democracy.

Mubarak most certainly wanted to retain his tribal power - and tribalism can be quite stable - but, but only if the population is low, only in a non-industrial economy, only in a no-growth economy. None of these variables apply to Egypt or the ME. They have to move into a growth economy, which is flexible, non-kin based, open to non-kin alliances and collaborations, open to ideological debate.

If you think that such a transformation is easy, heh, try changing your mother or great aunt's mind about how to host a family dinner.

What will happen first, in tectonic shifts, is that the old infrastructure weakens as it fails to economically provide for an increased population. The leaders will try to retain the structure; they'll do this by physical and ideological force (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria). It won't work; the old one becomes dysfunctional. The collapse will be violent.

Then what? Does the new infrastructure spring up all fresh and operative in its glory? No. Impossible. The old system of kin-loyalties, ideological loyalties and its infrastructure, is still there. A different kin-group will try to take power over this SAME OLD infrastructure.

But, it's the infrastructure (kin-based) that is the problem. It won't be able to provide for the economic needs of the population and will, itself, devolve into a period of uncertainty and dysfunction. This can last even for a decade. BUT - it can't last. The pressures of an increasing population means that the infrastructure has to change to enable a free market economy.

Again, it's naive to think that tectonic infrastructural changes are gradual; they are not; they are massive and chaotic.

Hmm - I may have been unduly optimistic in thinking that the Egyptian military would keep the Islamists under control.

Note the vicious libel of Hosni Mubarak written by the MailOnline writer, even as he admits his own errors. In fact Mubarak was a fairly decent man, and most of the people he kept down thoroughly deserved to be persecuted. His big mistake was in leaving them alive. He preserved a little bit of religious tolerance (we can see now how deep that went, in the general populace) and honoured the peace treaty with Israel.

I thoroughly agree with Mark Matis's comment above.

If it's division and uncertainty, it's what Barry O wants.

It's all in the plan.

"...Such a transition from tribalism, from dictatorship, to democracy, hasn't ever occurred in the history of men..."
ET at July 2, 2012 9:14 AM

Oh, I don't know about that. A Little Boy and a Fat Man modernized Japan's political system overnight.

So surprised I didn't read this in a north american newspaper. The english are always going about sticking their noses where they ought not to be. / sarc

"The chimp in chief" ? exactly Mark Matis

Jamie McMaster - you misunderstood my sentence. The sentence 'such a transition' referred to the previous sentence's content of "gradual,progressive and harmless process'.

The atomic bombs over Japan did not fit into that definition.

Again, a society doesn't operate just on the surface but within deep, very longterm economic and political infrastructures of kin relations, levels of authority, normative interactions, commitments, ideologies. These provide stability. Changing them is tectonic and not meant to be accomplished on a whim or mood.

We can all go home, the sage has 'analyzed' the situation and declared 'tribes' of corporations will solve the problem.

They just don't have the right kind of tribes...

So America quit supporting the Shah and religious fanatics took over Iran. America provided weapons to overthrow the Russian puppet government in Afghanistan and religious fanatics took over. Ditto Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and coming soon Syria. How about we destroy the evil empire Saudi Arabia from whence all this crap flows. They are our worst enemy but pretend to be our best friend. We have no friends in the region. Saudi Arabia took care of that.

Such condescension ET. It precisely that attitude that has messed up this country's indigenous people. If you remove the coercion, people will choose modernity over tribalism so fast that liberals will be amazed.

An early stage of revolution is the guillotining of moderate doctrinaire liberals, next is the guilloting of radical democrats, finally a new admired dictatorship stamps out opposition and restores slavery or serfdom or both.

Dollops - I disagree with your assumption that 'modernity' [the correct term is 'civic'] is a result of free choice. These infrastructures do not develop out of conscious choice but are based on much deeper infrastructural forces - population size and economic mode.

I disgree with your unproven assumption that these modes are just choices and that if people who have been living in the tribal mode for centuries, are 'offered' the choice of 'modernity' (which rejects all the kinship filiations and loyalties) - that they will gleefully choose it.

Prove it. What coercion? The coercion is from within the bands, via the stranglehold that the chiefs have over the money from the government, and over their alloting this money to all their kin.

Living within a tribal versus civic mode is not akin to a store purchse of 'which should I purchase'. These are two different economic, political, social infrastructures. The tribal mode has been around for at least 10,000 and more modes - and formed when populations increased, when people started to domesticate plants and animals and 'grow' their own food. It's a basic mode of organization; stable, no growth, no change.

It becomes dysfunctional if the population increases beyond the carrying point of a tribal economic mode (non-industrial). The civic mode is totally different, enabling free markets, individual private business etc.

The indigeneous peoples of Canada refuse to move into the civic mode and insist on the tribal mode (no private property on reserves, no private enterprise). This is disastrous and they cannot economically live in a tribal economic mode anymore - which doesn't provide a cash flow.

It is truly amazing that despite untold examples from history they still don't understand. "The pressures of an increasing population means that the infrastructure has to change to enable a free market economy." A brutal dictatorship will not allow an increasing population to develop. The advocates of Sharia are far more brutal than what the Russians were when they introduced the Ukraniane Famine, or the Khmer Rouge and the killing fields of Southeast Asia. The Muslim Brotherhood is now on the ascent throughout the Middle East and with centuries of indoctrination of their ideology we can be sure that there will be an Muslim Imam that will relegate Hitler, Stalin and Mao to mere footnotes in history.

Antenor - right. When a tribal mode has become economically dysfunctional due to population increase - and the society must change to enable a middle class and private enterprise - a first reaction on the old political side is: prevent this change.

So, you get military and ideological repression. Now, I'm not sure how long the brutality of this repression can continue in the Middle East. The major difference now, from the 14th and 15th c in Europe, and from the modern Stalinist and Middle East dictatorships - is, in my view - the current existence of the Internet, satellite information gathering, individual electronic devices etc.

That is, control over information has moved out of the total control of the kin-group in power, and into the hands of the powerless citizens. It's not complete; the authority tries to block this information, (as in N. Korea) but, they can't do so completely or indefinitely.

Thus, I think the brutality and repression will exist - and the violence will be as great - as the old tribal groups fight each other for power and try to retain the old infrastructure, but I think these will be for shorter periods than in the past centuries.

Obama's plan is humming along. Remember he is Sunni.
He has entitled these Jihadists every step of the way. Another term & he will have his Islamist America where being Muslim is now Kevlar abetted.
They can do no wrong. No one can say a thing about its barbarism With police hiding Murders.

Nice theory there Margret Mead....er..ET. Did you know that your theory and a couple of bucks will get you a coffee down at Tim Hortons? At least the coffee will keep you awake unlike your 40 year old college thesis that you keep regurgitating like it was holy writ. It isn't holy writ btw just in case you're interested. Its just your flimsy excuse of materialistic causes being the sole driver of mankind's destiny. Good luck with that, keep preaching sister I'm sure somewhere some Islamist is quaking in his sandals because of the penetrating insight in some shop worn theory of some shop worn academic.

I’m also a little confused as to why ET continues to flog this dead horse.

It was accurately predicted by conservative thought that the North African nations would fall into tribal anarchy without their generally benign dictators well before the Liberal Progressive’s decided they needed to push and force democracy in these craphole countries.

Now that the obvious has happened, and the wonderful Utopian western style civilization with cafe’s and bistros didn’t pop up on every corner, it’s time to psychoanalyze the situation in 100 convoluted ways to defend a disastrous and disgusting interference into foreign lands. Namely lands with obscure cultures completely misunderstood by western pseudo intellectuals. The top corporate UN dogs knew, and every Progressive Leftist in the cult of the UN bought their snake oil.

Now it’s “we needed to destroy the village to save the people” hypocritical BS coming out of the left, as if there is some certainly that 5000 years of Arab culture wrapped in 1200 years of cultish Islamic culture will smooth itself out in a mere 10, 20, 30.....Years.

It’s ridiculous to believe that western “trends” will lead Arab/ Islamic peoples onto a path of freedom, liberty and free capitalist/ socialist markets by simply bombing them to hell and letting them rebuild from the ashes of the ensuing tribal anarchy.

The murderous left got it wrong again! Of course they will never grow up and stop making excuses for their enlightened social engineering train wrecks, but that is exactly why we need to grow up and stop giving them the power to do so.

If you remove the coercion, people will choose modernity over tribalism so fast that liberals will be amazed.

Yup, Christianity removes the coercion.

It's a choice, no matter what the crazy sage says.

This article is right about Egypt but goes on to make exaggerated or even downright false statements. For instance, there's really no evidence the Syrian rebellion has been 'hijacked' by AQ. And this:

In Morocco, Kuwait and Algeria — the only Arab countries that have held parliamentary elections during the past year — affiliates of the Muslim Brotherhood have swept to power.

is an exaggeration for Morroco (MB did not get a majority of the seats) and a falsehood for Algeria (the secular ruling party owned the election).

The irony here is that neoconservatives were hoping for this outcome when they advocated turning Iraq into a democracy and idiotically took Saudi Arabia for an 'ally'-a position they are largely unrepentant for. The author's piece would've been enriched by examining policy failures in the past. Then again, his errors make the piece worthless anyway.

In fact Mubarak was a fairly decent man, and most of the people he kept down thoroughly deserved to be persecuted.

No he wasn't and persecution is undeserved by definition?. Mubarak was a bastard he got what he deserved.

Yet another inaccuracy in the story is the tale of 'Islamist militias' in Libya. While some of these armed groups are religious, they are overwhelmingly tribal or otherwise irrelevant to religion. The Islamic takeover of Libya seems to be forever just around the corner.

One real life example that I think proves ET's point is India. Largest democracy in the world. Why? Because when the English left, the Indians were intelligent enough to accept, the structure that England left. A Parliament, a Justice system, an education system, roads, railroads, etc. All founded on the cornerstone of Liberty Property Rights and English Common Law....

RFB >

Have you been to India? I have, many times, and it is a freaking mess. Definitely not a model for any nation to respect or try to emulate if that’s even possible.

As posted on the Canadian Government website provided by an SDA commenter yesterday, a country to avoid.

Uh, ET said it wasn't a choice. The Indians made a choice...

Could certainly do a lot worse than India...but also a lot better. Methinks they have a much brighter long-term future than China though.

I had another insightful thought regarding this lousy column. If the Sauds are using the Arab spring for their own advantage, then why are they so keen to prop up the regimes being toppled (with the exception of Syria)? They were on record as being upset over Mubarak being toppled. Not make sense.

LAS >

"Not make sense".

That is because you’re not an Arab, nor a Wahhabi Islamist, nor a member of the Saudi Royal family.

The very same reasons why the Liberal pseudo intellectuals should mind their own business and western nations should build a virtual Israeli style border around their own nations.

Fair trade of goods and services alone will ensure reasonable security from Islamic terrorism and expansion in the west (Food & medicine for oil). Stop unchecked/ unproven immigration, no student or work visas from Islamic countries.

LAS at July 2, 2012 1:54 PM

The Saudi royalty like their single malt scotch and their European whores.
They don't want AQ to take over their ongoing by-lineage-only petroleum party.
AQ is supposed to attack “infidels” only, not the keepers of Mecca and Medina.

Syria is an Iranian client state, both Iran and Syria are Russian client states, the Saudis are Sunni and the Iranians are Shia.
From the Saudi/Wahhabi world view the Shia are infidels because the Shia have some lesser prophets and the Wahhabi believe Mohammed is Islam's one-and-only prophet.

At least OZ's comment makes sense, although I should point out that AQ has already attacked 'the keepers' many times. It would not surprise me one iota if the Sauds made a backroom detente with them though.

Stop unchecked/ unproven immigration, no student or work visas from Islamic countries.

No sorry we're not going to damage our economy to indulge your cultural insecurity/paranoia. So sad for you.

"although I should point out that AQ has already attacked 'the keepers' many times"
~LAS

That's because AQ practices what Wahhabism preaches and they view the House of Saud( expensive scotch and expensive European whores) as hypocrites unworthy of being 'the keepers'.

Unfortunately for the west our outlook has become one of intellectual constipation as exemplified by ET. Instead of "what if" our 'intellectual superiors' believe "it must be". There is no evidence in the history of mankind that justifies their loopy optimism and tons of evidence to the contrary but that is no never mind to them. They have read books doncha know, and they have thought deep thoughts doncha know and they have argued amongst each other doncha know.

The fact remains that Islam, just like its ethnic ancestor Ishmael, is a wild ass of a religion fighting against everyone and everyone fighting against it. What's more closing the door to immigration is not the answer as Islam is not an ethnicity it is an ideology and as such can not be restrained by mere fences and border patrols. Not to say you want to invite a brood of vipers to dwell in your cleavage mind you! In fact there is only one thing that will contain the scourge of Islam and atheism/materialism isn't it. Telling a bunch of religious fanatics that there is no God is not going to work nor is handing out mini-skirts, tube tops and dollops of money. You have to channel their fanaticism in other directions and occupy their minds with better thoughts. You have to make Islam into an intellectual and spiritual pariah whereby all former Muslims willing burn their Qur'an (not that they ever read the thing anyways).

LAS >

"No sorry we're not going to damage our economy...."

Bwahahaha - LAS you've never been right about anything you've posted, it's incredible that you keep going allowing others to use you by spring boarding their own common sense off your naive talking points.

My so called “cultural insecurity/ paranoia” is based on living and working with these people for over three decades in these very countries we are discussing, I’ve been a permanent resident in Libya, Egypt and Algeria – you unfortunately have no excuses, save for gut feelings and slogans based on other peoples agendas.

Joe - sorry, I can't stand Margaret Mead and the rest of the sophist leftist postmodernists. Heh. Nice try with your usual personal insults. You never deal with the issues; all you ever do when you disagree is insult the person. Very immature. Oh, and my doctoral thesis wasn't on these issues.

Knight 99 - the promotion of democracy wasn't an agenda of the left but of the right, in this case, it was Bush's doctrine. I consider it the right move. Change doesn't happen in any society overnight. These are structural changes; it's not like switching shoe colour or hats. It's deep societal change and it can take decades. The network of normative economic, political, financial and familial relations has to be dismantled and a new set developed. Why would you think that this can be done in a month or year?

LAS - the 'neoconservatives' (explain) were hoping for what? Neotribalism?

Like it or not, the Middle East nations and their population are part of the global reality and suggestions of walling them off, bombing them to oblivion and so on, are lots of fun for a TV cartoon show. But reality isn't a cartoon; they have to change from a tribal to a civic infrastructure and we have to reject their tribalism.

That means that we have to reject the exporting of tribalism, within our policies of multiculturalism. All that multiculturalism does is to set up isolate tribes, steeping in age-old hatreds and beliefs, and since they aren't forced to adapt to civic society in our western nations - they retain and foster these pathologies.

Well, I think ET's theory is sound enough if you accept the premise: that non-kin modernization will come 'cos it has to in order to support the rapidly growing population.

Two, issues:

1. With western aid (guilt payment jizya) this can be forestalled indifintiely (look at the "Palestinian" "refugee" situation and UNWRA).

2. Population could decline precipitously [see: Russia].

ET is right that it takes a long, long time. But wrong, I believe, in her optimism (there'll be progres because there has to be).

Joe >

“What's more closing the door to immigration is not the answer as Islam....”

The current trend hasn’t been working very well so far has it? What do they say about doing something over and over again and expecting different results?

The point is, you don’t appease Islam, the Buddhist in Thailand know this, the Hindu’s of India know this, The Jew’s around the world know it, and the Christians throughout the Middle East, Philippines, North & West Africa know it as well.

You don’t bend them with a sword, you use our economic might to break them from within.

That includes denying them our desirable resource and technology rich nations that promise education, aid, food and medicine. If they are denied access to our wealth they either wither and die or transform from the inside out. Only then will the west be safe from Islam and only then will Islam look inside itself for change.

Islamic people’s and nations offer the west nothing save for oil and an abundance of semi employed taxi cab drivers with 4 wives and allot of Social Assistance needs.

Westerners simply can’t seem to grasp the overwhelming majority of “moderate” support for violent Jihad against the west. You need to break it economically and socially to change it, nothing less.

ET >

“the promotion of democracy wasn't an agenda of the left but of the right, in this case, it was Bush's doctrine”

Sorry “it was Bush’s fault” simply won’t do here.

It was Obamba’s Whitehouse that set the stage for the “Arab Spring”. It was Obamba’s WH with Liberal Democrat applause that circumvented Congressional approval to invade and overthrow Libya with NATO. Thus turning it backwards into a tribal cesspit from having the highest standard of living in Africa, and the second highest Human Development Index as rated by the UN (Yes please Goggle).

In a nutshell the Liberal Global Social engineers messed with North Africa to make it what it is today with full fanfare from mentally ill Liberal ideologues throughout the western world.

Now the world is a much more dangerous place for everyone, and all we hear is excuses and finger pointing the other way.

me no dhimmi - I agree with your first point. The financial assistance from the West certainly enables the tribal infrastructure to continue long past its due date.

Oil revenues have done the same and cemented in the old tribal system. But now, the population has grown beyond the carrying capacity of even this economic mode.

As for depopulation, it simply puts off the inevitable for a while. In Europe, famines, plagues and wars would decimate the population for a generation but it would regrow and yet again, pressure the old European tribal mode (feudalism) to force it to change.

That's why I think that progress, ie the movt from tribal to civic mode, is inevitable. The population can't be reduced back to a tribal functionality.

The civic economic mode, which is based around a private property middle class, increases the amount and flow of wealth in the population; this supports that higher population. But the system must then move into a democratic political mode for all political modes must empower the wealth-providing class. Democracy empowers the middle class.

The point I was making Knight 99 is that defeating Islam is a multifaceted approach. I guess you missed my allusion to "brood of vipers in your cleavage" regarding bringing in Muslims from foreign lands.

Like leftists, ET thinks some system will be the saviour. She extrapolates the experience of Christian countries onto non-Christian countries and expects the same result.

Of course, she has no proof a non-Christian country has ever achieved the freedom and wealth of Christian countries. Since it's never happened...especially to atheist countries.

Joe >

"The point I was making Knight 99 is that defeating Islam is a multifaceted approach"

I know you were, and I read and caught the Viper analogy.

I was simply stressing the point that defeating Islam is by getting them where it hurts the most. namely immigration, aid, and technology. That is their Achilles Heel, bombing them into submission or democracy doesn’t work, neither will appeasement nor pandering to their “better nature”. They simply don't value human life and social construction in the same way we do. They do like a nice Rolex watch and a Mercedes to drive it around though.

It was Obamba’s Whitehouse that set the stage for the “Arab Spring”.

Wrong. The Arab Spring was pretty inevitable. And this kind of 'rolling change' was an explicitly stated goal of the Bush Neocons, who thought that changing Iraq would lead to demand for democracy throughout the region.

Again, Knightcap, it is not 'our' economy or 'our' wealth to be used as a cudgel against people you don't like. Our immigration policy will and should import the people we need-including the legions of doctors from the ME. I think their employers have a much better idea of what they need than you do.