Turning Green

Back to the man cave ye primatives...!

Wearing buckskin and beaver pelts...and you may need some grog.

Cheers

Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief

1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”

The answer is to generate your power by fuel cells using natural gas. Pipelines don't get damaged by falling trees.

So, a friendly 'Hot enough for ya? would go over about as well as a turd in a hot tub??

Rush really knows how to stick a knife under their ribs and give it a good twist.

Too bad the idiots that needed to hear this have already lost battery power in their radios.

-

Anyway..

Would love to see a 90 mile an hour wind hit a windmill.

It would take off like a C-130.

I can imagine a lineup at the Nissan dealer of people wanting to turn over their new Leaf.
BWA-HA-HA!

This is why I think Limbaugh's an idiot. Power generation and power transmission are two distinctly different things. Linking the DC area power outages and solar power is like saying traffic jams are caused by using unleaded gasoline; one has nothing to do with the other.

In fact, if you did have solar panels and they'd been installed in any reasonable way (i.e. connected to both your home supply and the grid), you would have some power when your neighbours didn't. Whether you'd choose to run your air conditioner is up to you; personally, I'd run the fridge first and computer second.

Third, the electric cars - drudge also reports huge lineups at gas stations, many of which have run dry. So, how's your ICE car working with no gas? Limbaugh's statement is stupid on so many levels.

Please don't read the above to mean I'm in favour of McSquinty like solar/wind power; I'm not. But that scheme is useless because it's over-priced, doesn't deliver near enough energy to meet Ontario's needs, and not reliable. To suggest that there's something wrong with solar power because it doesn't magically deliver power when all the power lines are down is laugh out loud idiotic.

Uh kevin, i doubt most folks would have enough solar panels to run the air conditioning, or charge the electric car. Thats the point he was making. He might also be alluding to the tendency of many cities in the state to spend on green projects instead of upgrading their existing system.

Kevin,install solar panels,hook them up and see how many you will need to power ANYTHING when the sun goes down.Dont mention batteries because you cant charge batteries and take power out of them at the same time.You have a cell phone dont you?Try it sometime.You have to charge the batteries with solar during the day and USE THE POWER AT NIGHT.In Dec at our latitude,you can do your reading with the light of a kerosene lamp because you will need any electricity to survive.

I recall the carbon taxed furnace in my BC house burning out the beaker,
FU Liberals
and double FU NDP
don't elect a worse creep-show after BAD.
Please.
D

Couldn't have happened to a more deserving group of people. Well, maybe if it hit the Big Crapple. Or the Windy Shitty. Or...

Kevin,

The amount of solar panels required to go totally off the grid and run large appliances like refrigerators, air conditioners and stoves 24/7 requires the whole roof area of most 2500sqft homes and probably most of the front lawn (facing the sun for optimal electricity generation). You would also require about 15 to 20 rechargeable batteries like you would use in your car/boat so that the extra power generated could be stored for night-time use. Not to mention that the whole set-up would have to be connected to a huge converter (in order to make the energy generated useable in your AC/DC outlets) and then attached your home's electrical panel. Essentially, your home would be considered a toxic waste site if a tornado/hurricane hit and it was destroyed. Furthermore, I don't know how long your solar panels would stay bolted on to your roof or your front lawn if winds were hitting 90-130km/hr and were able to uproot large trees.

Kevin, you are entirely right about confusing generation and transmission. This surfaced after a huge ice storm knocked out power in eastern Ontario and western Quebec in the late 1990s. People began demanding that overhead transmission and distribution lines be put underground.

Then they blenched at what it would cost.

Ahhh Kevin.

Do you have any idea how much power a air conditioner requires to run? From a 120V 15amp system up to a 220V.
You're simple 12v batteries and solar system would be run dry in just a few hours.

I had a guy claim a "fella he knew" had a hydrogen powered car that produced it's own fuel by on board electrolysis.....

Said the car started on gasoline and after 5 minutes the thing was producing enough H and O2 to run the engine to propel the car and the electrolysis.....

That sounds to me a lot like standing in a bucket and levitating by pulling on the handle.....

KevinB, not to pile on or anything but do you have any idea how much -money- Rush Limbaugh makes from being an "idiot"?

Furthermore, he's right. How many solar panels and windmills survived that wind storm in functioning condition? I'm guessing not many. I'm also 100% sure we will never find out, because the facts will not be reported. Ever. Well, unless Limbaugh reports them. And he might.

Now, as to the actual, true -reason- why the power is out all down the US East Coast. The reason is tree huggers. Local politicians and town councils in NY, PA, DC etc. save money by pandering to the countless MORONS who object to tree trimming.

That's right my friends, they don't trim the trees next to the power lines. Or the highways. Or city streets. Or any tree on public property that isn't fully dead, from what I've seen.

Burning down the Sawmill Parkway in Westchester County, heading for the Rotten Apple at 70mph, with some soccer mom tailgating the hell out of you in an H2 Hummer, talking on her cell phone with one hand and putting on her lipstick with the other. There's a white line on the right hand side. Then a curb. Then grass for about three feet. Then trees. I'm not talking saplings here, I'm talking mature maples and oaks two foot plus across. The branches -overhang- the roadway. You can see the bark stripped off where they get clipped by taller vehicles. Oh, and no fence. Yes, for real, no fence.

So obviously two things happen. When it snows (or there's a wind storm) large limbs and whole trees fall on the roadway. Every time. Like clockwork. It's local knowledge. People don't go down the road in a snowstorm because there's a huge danger of getting creamed by a tree.

Likewise, every SINGLE storm there's a power failure. A widespread power failure. Because of limbs falling onto power lines and trees knocking down poles. Not just beside the road either, but on main power corridors, high voltage transmission lines, the works.

That's the real reason why DC is without power today. Trees didn't get cut. You are not going to hear that on the news, but that's why.

Know what? Those dumb sons of beeotches are going to let 'em grow back too. Because tree huggers don't learn, and they vote.

What was the second thing that happens? Deer running out in front of cars going 70mph on the highway. Pretty much every week, someplace on your commute, you see a car on the side of the road with a deer embedded in the front. Sometimes you see half a Toyota and an ambulance and half a deer.

Because... no fence. Think about that. Where'd the fence money go, I wonder? Same place the tree cutting money went.

Kevin you should have been standing up. The whole monologue went right over your head

I bet not one of these urban green quislings who dote on inpractical green energy tech realizes that electrical generation outage from all sources could be permanent if we had another natural occurance of a solar electro-magnetuc pulse.

A solar EMP or solar storms are naturally and regularly occuring and sometimes can be catastrophic like the one we had in 1859 if it had occured today it would knock out the continental grid probably or a year or more. This would be entirely and easily preventable with the proper EMP protection in place on the grid. However there is no EMP protection as it stands now and any profit grid operators have is being ordered diverted into poitless green rnergy tech. (which is fragile and fully susceptible to EMP damage).

If an 1859-sized EMP knocked out our grid, urban greentards would find themselves in a pre-industrial survival situation - essentially living in an unheated dark cave, no running water, no refridgeration or electrial cooking, and probably no food for a year or more - a real life situation of their anti-industrial utopia. I don't think they would do well because the same urban greentards were the first to call anyone prepping for long term disaster " right wing survivalist nuts".

In that regard. a strong solar EMP will be a darwin moment.

@KevinB

You may be running on empty, but most people who have ICE cars are smart enough not to let the tank empty and have enough gas to commute to and from work for over a week with a typical car and commute.

As opposed to an electric that needs recharging at least daily, and maybe twice a day, in order to commute to work and back.

Any manufacturing facility needs an economical and reliable power source to operate. Curiously, I can't think of any solar panel maker who runs their factory with solar generated power. Same question applies to wind power manufacturers. Until these guys walk the talk include me out.

Why are so many people piling on Kevin? He stated quite clearly that he's not an advocate for wind or solar power silliness. He also expressed the opinion that Limbaugh is an idiot for confusing power generation with distribution. I would go further and express the opinion that Limbaugh is an asshole for deliberately muddying the water when even he must realize that it doesn't matter how power is generated if you can't get it to the customer.

It seems that all over the news there are reports of record high here, record high there. Interesting then that the media fails to report that here in BC we have had a near record *cold* June.

ZOG
Why are so many people piling on Kevin? He stated quite clearly that he's not an advocate for wind or solar power silliness.
________________

Yet it sure looks like he's defending it. Rush is right about this. Were wasting taxpayers monies on these failed idea's for worthless reasons.Unless you're a bundler for O-dumber. Windmills have been in Calif since the 1970 and it's been a failure.

Zog said: "I would go further and express the opinion that Limbaugh is an asshole for deliberately muddying the water..."

So dude. How many windmills and solar panels do YOU think survived the storm? How much more FUBAR do you think the electric situation would be if the much demanded 25% of generation depended on wind and solar? When do you think the tree hugging public will grow a brain and not call their congressman at the sight of a power company guy with a chainsaw?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Geez, there seems to be a whole bunch of people here who are particularly skilled at debating things I did not say, am not saying, and will not saying.

I NEVER said you could charge your electric car with solar power. All I said, quoting reports from Drudge, was that many gas stations in the DC area were dry, and there were others where the electric pumps weren't working. My point was if there's no electricity to power the gas pumps, and you don't have much gas in your car, it's just as useless as an electric.

I NEVER said you could run your A/C all day long with solar power. I didn't say explicitly that you couldn't; I figured that anyone with any practical knowledge would know that a typical central air needs gobs of power that a roof-top solar panel couldn't meet for days on end. Of course, as I said explicitly, "Whether you'd choose to run your air conditioner is up to you; personally, I'd run the fridge first and computer second. " The subtle point - way too subtle for some, apparently - was that running the A/C would drain your batteries quickly, whereas running the fridge at a warmer than normal setting would at least stop your food from spoiling, and having some access to the outside world would at least let you know when you might expect regular power to return.

As a rhetoritician, it's annoying that so many people don't know the difference between "some S is P" and "all S is P" in argument. Every time I suggest that hybrid electric cars (ones that have both gas and electric motors) make sense for some people (which is a "some S is P" argument), a whole lotta yahoos jump on me, substitute their own argument from either "electric cars don't make sense for me" (some S is not P), or "electric cars don't make sense for anyone" (no S is P), and then proceed to rant away, oblivious to the fact that in the first case, that's not what I'm arguing, and in the second case, they're wrong.

All I was trying to point out was the ludicrousness of Limbaugh's statement which implied that if you had solar power, you were stuck "stinking like a pig". In fact, you might have been enjoying the breeze generated by your low-watt and low-tech electric fan, powered by your roof top solar panels in Washington DC and area, which BECAUSE IT'S THE BEGINNING OF JULY AND RIGHT NEAR THE SUMMER SOLSTICE are getting 14 hours total of sun each day, and about 6 peak hours of sunlight, or just about the perfect conditions for solar. I don't give a crap if you're up near Fort McMurray - Rush wasn't talking about you and neither was I.

Honestly, I'd be much happier if people would debate what I say, and not what they've imagined I said.

And Davy 388 - I don't listen to Limbaugh, so I don't know if it was a joke or not. I just reacted to what was posted here.

Phantom - yeah, I know Rush makes millions. So does David Letterman, and I think he's an Obama A@@-kissing idiot. Being a nominal conservative doesn't prevent anyone from saying something stupid.

cgh - thanks, at least one person was listening. I remember our fields and waves prof talking about underground transmission of high voltage power back in the 70's. In the course of about 20 minutes, he showed why it would be tremendously more expensive to install and maintain than overhead systems, and I don't think much has changed since then.

@KevinB

Yoo-Hoo! Over here!

I addressed your comment regarding ICE powered cars, but let me clarify my comment for you. When bad weather is coming, be it summer storms or winter blizzards, I can prepare by filling my ICE car with gas in advance, knowing this should give me a week of transportation available.

An all electric car is toast after one day of usage during a power outage.

So an ICE buggy is generally more reliable than a green buzz bomber in good times or bad.

Kevin B,

Welcome to the Internet (not that you didn't know this already).

This is one of those corners of the Interwebs where partisan ideology trumps all. Disagree with the ideological prophet and you will be mocked, disparaged and otherwise shat upon.

It doesn't matter that what you say is as true as 2+2 = 4. Because you said something that contested a statement of the prophet, you will be excoriated and tossed aside like used toilet paper.

Because that's what "thinking" people do on the Interwebs.

Funny thing is, they probably did the exact same before the Interwebs, it's just that we didn't hear them before. Scary world I tell ya!

Anyways... Have fun with your little "debate."

Remember the warning of not arguing with idiots. "Don't argue with idiots. First they drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience."

Not that I'm suggesting anything about the wise folk who regularly post here, but I think the thing speaks for itself.

The Wet One

P.S. I'll check out now as the hordes of religiously partisan mouth breathers will come to slag me. In a few days it should die down. However, I will have at least bought Kevin a reprieve from his attackers.

Cheers!

Kevin, so true. Just think of how much insulation you would need for a 400 kV line. A typical Ontario transmission corridor has towers holding up two separate three phase circuits.

So that's 18 cables which have to be insulated and buried. For just one line. Normal tramsmission costs with towers I think run about $50 million/km. I think we could safely inflate that cost by at least a factor of 10 for underground transmission.

And that's just capital. Doing maintenance? Digging up the damn thing is going to be far more expensive than using a boom truck. Worse, there's now way to do live line repair work. You have to take the entire circuit down.

No, the costs won't have changed since the 1970s. Transmission cables would still have to use PVC coatings. Cable insulation has changed only in its better resistance to stress cavitation.

And try not to get too excited about the boneheads. But as soon as you dare even one minor criticism of Saint Rush, the rabid ones come swirling in from all sides. Like you, I'm a conservative, but the downfall of any ideology is the tendency of all too many to kowtow, accepting every word as sacred.

The Phantom at July 3, 2012 11:09 AM:

"Local politicians and town councils in NY, PA, DC etc. save money by pandering to the countless MORONS who object to tree trimming."

I was in Paris recently. I swear, every tree in the city is exquisitely manicured. The leaves of those along the Champs Elysees are shaped into upright rectangles. Say what you will about the French, but they do have a sense of style.

The French also, of course, are big into nuclear power. It's funny how the Left in this country wants to emulate the Europeans, but only in the ways they find charming. They say we can make it work, because the Europeans do. But, they don't want to import the items and practices which actually keep Europe afloat.

KevinB at July 3, 2012 1:31 PM:

"I remember our fields and waves prof talking about underground transmission of high voltage power back in the 70's. In the course of about 20 minutes, he showed why it would be tremendously more expensive to install and maintain than overhead systems, and I don't think much has changed since then."

The French do it. When you venture out into the countryside, you sense something decidedly odd. Then it hits you: there are no overhead power lines. The Germans do it, too.

Bart,

Your link to Frum's article refers only to the burial of domestic service lines. Here in Calgary, they've been burying all new low voltage lines for thirty years, and that's great. However, there are sound engineering reasons for not burying high voltage AC lines. (The explanation is too esoteric to go into on a blog). Burying high voltage DC lines is practical but the juice has to converted to AC at destination before feeding it into the local service lines.

The power failures are being spun as proof of global warming by the lefty media of course, but they are actually just a preview of our future when Obama and the Sierra Club have crippled our ability to generate electricity. With no excess capacity, heat and cold waves will swamp the grid. Poor people will die, but the elites will be fine as usual.

KevinB,

Whether or not Rush is an idiot aside, your distinction is a distinction without a difference, for two reasons.

First, by greatly restricting the building of new power plants, and even going so far as forcing existing ones to close, the grid runs closer to capacity, making it more fragile.

Second, NIMBY mentality also extends to such things as power substations, high voltage lines and other non-polluting aspects of the grid. Fewer of those makes the grid more fragile, as one downed tree takes out 3 square miles instead of 3 square blocks.

Moving on, why the heck don't y'all boneheads back there BURY your powerlines?????????? Maybe there's a good reason other than "when installing, it's cheaper to string 'em", but c'mon, between the ice storms and wind storms, this is a routine occurrence.

KevinB,

Whether or not Rush is an idiot aside, your distinction is a distinction without a difference, for two reasons.

First, by greatly restricting the building of new power plants, and even going so far as forcing existing ones to close, the grid runs closer to capacity, making it more fragile.

Second, NIMBY mentality also extends to such things as power substations, high voltage lines and other non-polluting aspects of the grid. Fewer of those makes the grid more fragile, as one downed tree takes out 3 square miles instead of 3 square blocks.

Moving on, why the heck don't y'all boneheads back there BURY your powerlines?????????? Maybe there's a good reason other than "when installing, it's cheaper to string 'em", but c'mon, between the ice storms and wind storms, this is a routine occurrence.

Bart,
http://www.superstock.com/stock-photography/Power+transmission+lines

You were saying?

Bikerdad, the difference in both construction and maintenance costs is at least a factor of 10. So no sniveling if your electricity bill doubles from that alone. And for all you landowners out there, I trust you won't object when the utility comes along and digs a row of trenches about 100 m wide through your property.

Ah, northern Quebec and Ontario? Good luck putting transmission lines through solid rock.

Zog: "Your link to Frum's article refers only to the burial of domestic service lines."

Not exclusively.

"However, there are sound engineering reasons for not burying high voltage AC lines."

And, other reasons for doing so. There are always tradeoffs. It is not my intention to perform a full cost/benefit analysis here which would hold in every instance.

Mainly, I was annoyed by KevinB's comment that "I don't think much has changed since then." Much has definitely changed, including materials, tools, the workforce, and the culture. Whether those changes would substantially change outcome of the equation or not is open to debate, but "I don't think so" is not of any particular value.

The world is changing everyday, and we need constant reassessment of our position if we want to remain competitive.

cgh at July 3, 2012 6:09 PM:

So, you're saying that if you can show a few power lines in France, I must have been hallucinating? Look, it's simple combinatorics: the more vulnerable lines you have, the more likely you are to have failures.

KevinB is right Limbaugh is just talking out his rear once again. This would actually be one of the few times solar panels would be any good. Also, paint your house light colors and you'll be a lot cooler.

Bart, like every other country, France has all of its HV transmission systems on towers. About the only exception is the Chunnel link to Britain. Quite simply the cost of using something other than air as an insulator is prohibitive. It simply can't be justified on the basis of a once-a-decade event.

with respect to technology, Kevin's comment was basically correct. The technology 80 years ago for HV power lines was aluminum conductor insulated by air, and so it is today. The only major changes to this system are:
1. use of polymers rather than glass and ceramics for the insulator strings, primarily to reduce weight and protect against bullet damage.
2. development over the past 25 years of DC transmission to reduce line resistance and losses.

There have also been some improvements in insulation for submarine cables to resist electrostatic breakdown. Otherwise, that's it. Transmission is a mature technology.

So, like it or not, the fact is that system failures just have to be lived with. Now one thing that could reduce the impact of system failures is to restore system reserve capacity. In the old days, pre 1980, typically transformers were loaded to 50%. Even if you lost a transformer, the station still had enough reserve capacity to support the load. Over the past 30 years, loading has grown on average to about 80 percent. Lose a transformer now and you disconnect all the customers on its feeders.

Same thing applies to transmission. Load levels are much higher now than they were 30 years ago. Which is why Ontario lost power in August 2003 when two lines failed in Ohio.

And as noted above, be a lot more vigorous about tree-trimming. Phantom up above was right. This was caused by trees falling on lines.

No, LAS, solar panels won't do any good. Cover your roof with solar panels and you'll have about enough electricity to run a coffee pot. Refrigerator, air conditioning? Fuggetaboudit. Even if they survive the 120 km wind speed, that is.

KevinB said: "Being a nominal conservative doesn't prevent anyone from saying something stupid."

Still missing the point Kevin. Yes, today power is out due to lines being down. But IF power was being 25% generated by wind and solar, as demanded by Greenies, it wouldn't "just" be trees down on power lines. It would be lines down plus a full quarter of their generating infrastructure gone. From one storm.

Plus a few houses with those 100ft turbine blades sticking out of them, couple of beauty fires from the towers falling with burning generators on top, many roof-top solar panels gone along with the rest of the roof...

Could get expensive, eh? That's the point.

cgh

"""Transmission is a mature technology."""

usually you post reasonably, but on this you are out in left field, as there are huge changes to be made in materials technology for transmission lines, (and transformers). You should be well aware that about 95% of transmitted power ride on the skin of the power line, thus hollow lines are better, and cheaper, and structurally lighter. There are efforts to move away from Metals over to conductive plastics for transmission line, incorporating concepts used in transformer improvement technologies

as to Kevin, he miss the jist of Rush's triad, (yah, I don't care for Rush) which was not about the technical aspect of power, but the practical. They waste money on the wrong thing, and it comes back to bite them on the a$$.

BTW, I hope your backup generator ain't electric powered:-)))

NME666 at July 3, 2012 10:14 PM:

Thanks, Dude. Funny, I just put in a link listing underground HV lines in various countries, and cgh then informed me there were none.

We live in a global economy now. You either stay current, or you might find yourself prematurely forced into retirement.

cgh at July 3, 2012 9:03 PM:

"No, LAS, solar panels won't do any good. Cover your roof with solar panels and you'll have about enough electricity to run a coffee pot. Refrigerator, air conditioning? Fuggetaboudit. Even if they survive the 120 km wind speed, that is."

I agree with you there - Solar and wind power are losers. I just wanted to make clear where our differences lie.