Will be fought on side with the Germans;
The head of the International Monetary Fund has piled pressure on Germany by recommending a series of crisis-fighting measures that chancellor Angela Merkel has resisted.IMF managing director Christine Lagarde warned that the euro is under "acute stress" and urged eurozone leaders to channel aid directly to struggling banks rather than via governments. She also called on the European Central Bank (ECB) to cut interest rates.
Her comments came as Italy's prime minister, Mario Monti, warned of the apocalyptic consequences if next week's summit of EU leaders were to fail.
The stark message from Lagarde, delivered to eurozone finance ministers who were meeting in Luxembourg, will increase pressure to come up with a unified approach to tackle problems including Spain's struggling banks. She urged the 17 eurozone countries to consider jointly issuing debt and helping troubled banks directly. She also suggested relaxing the strict austerity conditions imposed on countries that have received bailouts.
Whilst I'm not really comfortable snuggling up to the Germans in any manner, I can't see Canada going to the mat for most of the rest. Having said that,the Germans have demonstrated a remarkable lets 'git er done' attitude that says they're willing to work.
I for one just cannot adhere to this 'To big to fail mentality.'
,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161651/Starving-Greeks-food-thousands-politicians-finally-form-coalition-government--long-last.html
Young children as well as the elderly waited in line in Athens to collect the parcels of fruit and vegetables donated by farmers from Crete to help ease the devastating austerity faced by many Greeks.
What a "bankster driven" Godforsaken mess...and "Greek salad" for all!
But just when you think it is all just a little beyond hope....
MARK MOBIUS: Europe Will Emerge Stronger From The Crisis
Read more: http://mobius.blog.franklintempleton.com/2012/06/22/abandon-the-panic-not-the-eurozone/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=abandon-the-panic-not-the-eurozone#ixzz1yXN8IFmt
I believe Greece isn’t the only country that could stand to learn a thing or two from the lessons this crisis is teaching. Some Western European countries and other developed markets across the globe are struggling with over-leveraged balance sheets and are seeking solutions. Meanwhile, many emerging markets are in better shape than some developed countries in terms of both debt and growth. In Eastern Europe for example, Poland was the only EU member to avoid recession during the 2008-2009 financial crisis.
Matthew 6:19
"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal."
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
MARK MOBIUS: Europe Will Emerge Stronger From The Crisis
Read more: http://mobius.blog.franklintempleton.com/2012/06/22/abandon-the-panic-not-the-eurozone/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=abandon-the-panic-not-the-eurozone#ixzz1yXNgGiHL
But when all is said and done, I believe Europe should emerge stronger, regardless of whether or not Greece chooses to leave the Euro (which I think is unlikely).
In my view, the European authorities are on the right track despite the political gridlock between pro-austerity countries (such as Germany) and those railing against it (such as Greece). The most important aspect of this situation, in my view, is that the European leaders are trying their best to put together a fiscal pact to strengthen their alliance and their currency. This will take time and requires patience, but in the end, I believe it will yield some positive results. The problems that led to the debt crisis must be addressed—and they are now.
And "Greek salad" for all...at least one worthy export!
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
The third time's the charm. If it comes to war in Europe I'd rather sit it out, but if we have to I'd rather side with Germany and fiscal responsibility over the southern states. The only question I have s which side would Britain take?
Lagarde and the other criminal bankers would have second thoughts if Germany sent their panzers to the Dutch and French borders.
@ Dystopian Optimist:
No need for panzers at this juncture in Europe, Germany will just send their bondholders...
There may be need for panzers elsewhere in the world...but that might be for another post.
Cheers
Hans Rupprecht, Commander in Chief
1st Saint Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North”
The Euro serves as a form of artificial currency devaluation for Germany: by attaching itself to a group of weaker economies, Germany and its export-producing industries get the benefit of a lower (Euro-zone average) exchange rate than they would if Germany were on its own from a currency point of view. Until recently, this has been a low-cost proposition with great benefits from Germany's perspective -- it has not had to fund much, if any, of the debt liabilities of other Euro-zone countries or banks.
That ideal situation from Germany's perspective is now at an end, as surely must be any emotional attachment to the notion of the "European project" (it's all about dog-eat-dog now, with all the resentment that that situation is going to engender). The question of the future of the Euro seems fairly simple on one level: how does the cost in terms of lost German GDP from the inevitable rise in the post-Euro German exchange rate compare to the cost to German taxpayers of keeping the other Euro-zone members afloat?
Given the apparent intransigence at the moment of the electorates of the other Euro-zone members (except Ireland), I suspect that Germany will ultimately conclude that the cost of supporting the Euro-zone will be more than the losses from exchange rate appreciation and that she will ultimately decide that the Euro will need to be unwound.
France will soon follow Spain and Italy, Quebec may need to make some quick decisions, within Canada.
I welcome that.
Social Justice Bans Bad Luck
Bwahahahahahahaha...what a stupid headline.
Social justice CAUSES "bad" luck. And no,it isn't bad luck,it's the stinking effin crap you commie/socialists made,so lay in it!
Ah, the ironic twists and turns of history. Twice, (three times if you count the 1870s Franco-Prussian War) France and Europe resisted with arms the German urge to dominate. Now they are begging for it. Maybe Hitler should have invented the Euro as the key stone of his thousand-year Reich
"...She also suggested relaxing the strict austerity conditions imposed on countries that have received bailouts...."
Strict?
Man, now that's funny
David Southam @ 12:12; your intuitive comments on the use of the Euro as a means to offset Germany's cultural over heads through a labour cost devaluation is the "elephant in the room" not discussed in any reports I have read.
My generational perspective and experience of doing business with Germany means I am reluctant to atribute any altruistic action on the internatinal actions taking place.
Fortunately, Canadians will not be suckered in to this maelstrom. The British were almost fooled into joining on several occasions,but wiser and experienced individuals set the attempts aside.
Having served in our Military during the "cold war" (not claiming to be Veteran) my advice to any young person feeling a need to participate in any future "european adventure" is don't.
History as repeatedly shown the self serving nationlism of Charles Martel's Europe will continue until dominence of Germany over France is regained.
Cheers;
Rather than berating Germany the IMF could bail out the banks. HA HA. Under Lagardes leadership the IMF is broke. Lagarde wants the Germans who work hard, retire late, and live within their means to bail out the rest of Europe, most of who work very little, retire early and don't live within their means. The crash is near. Just as in 29, it's time to start over.
“...Italy's prime minister, Mario Monti, warned of the apocalyptic consequences....”
Let’s Goggle Mario Monti –
“Monti is a leading member of the exclusive Bilderberg Group. He has also been an international advisor to Goldman Sachs and The Coca-Cola Company. He has also been a member of the "Senior European Advisory Council" of Moody's and he is one of the members of the "Business and Economics Advisors Group" of the Atlantic Council............................”
Well it’s good to know that Monti wants to give people’s money directly to International banks, after all there’s nothing like making sure your friends have enough.
The southern Europeans are the smartest of the lot. They joined the Euro to borrow for a happy lifestyle and now that the bills come due they're pressuring responsible countries to pay for the free ride or there'll be drastic consequences.
Everytime they riot they get more money.
Our children will learn from them.
Like they say "you reap what you sew".
The Germans have theirs and the P.I.G.S have their own.
Portuguese
Italians
Greeks
Spaniards
It's one thing to look at a train wreck; it's quite another to jump in.
Germany can't keep paying the bills forever and we should pretend we're not home whenever Europe calls.
Brings me back to an "if only" proposition I had a few years ago.
If only Britain had stayed out of WWI ... or at least ... If only Canada and the USA had stayed out of it.
That was the beginning of the path to destruction for Europe. Germany WAS the natural candidate for dominance and leadership in the Eurozone. Just think what could have been avoided had thar natural condition been allowed to evolve. All Britain had to do was stay OUT of it.
None of the European nations, Germany included, have the troops or hardware to wage real war for a month.
Germans I've met seem to be mostly pacifist people. Germany was crushed to dust in WWII. They have tried mightily to disavow their militaristic history. They are slaves to political correctness and have pretty much deballed themselves. That being said, they are not stupid people and there are limits (as yet unknown) of how far they can be pushed. We don't want to go there.
OMMAG: That's an interesting scenario, but what makes you believe that Germany's leaders at that time would have stopped at taking over Europe?
The Germans can blame themselves for starting up the whole Euro disaster.
David Southam, excellent analysis. The only point of possible contention is your last paragraph. It would all depend upon how deep the German industrial recession is following the breakup of the Euro.
Well RVR I do not profess to know if Germany would have stopped.
But I am pretty sure that Germany really didn't have a delusion about their abilities at that time. The old European dynasties were living in the past and teetering on the brink of collapse. Easy pickings for the Kaiser's forces.
The Germans probably would have consolidated what is now the EU and kicked the livin crap out of Russia and the nascent Soviet empire would never have consolidated. However the Germans would never have been able to conquer Russia then any more than later as the Wermacht. That war might have even been the impetus for a Russian counter revolution that would have destroyed the Marxist arseholes (one can dream).
England was still a powerhouse both economically and militarily. The Brits could and should have made treaty with the Germans and told the Ruskies and France to go fly a kite and except for old family ties and royal treaties would have.
The Germans had already made a proposal to Mexico to have them invade the Southern US. A move that was more designed to throw the Americans off their focus but in reality woke them to the potential of foreign backed incursion. I understand that the Russians had considered this as a strategy as well and stopped short because of the back lash it would create.
So that leaves Germany needing to consolidate its gains in Europe and probably to North Africa ... the traditional allegiances between Britain and its outposts, plus the Americans, Canadians and most likely the major players in South America and Asia to form a military and economic counter balance to the German Empire of Europe.
In my opinion that would have been a much more stable and sustainable world order.
related
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/world/europe/greece-vs-germany-spills-off-soccer-field.html?_r=1
Germany defeats Greece 4-2.
The score was actually 6-luv, but the Greeks borrowed 2 from the Germans, although they wanted 4.
also,
You'd think the Greeks would be better soccer players with all that practice "kicking the can down the road".
"Hello, boss? Can you…can you hear me? My cellphone battery is a bit low. Anyway…I'm hungover, sunburned, and I got crabs. I need another six weeks, and a paycheque…"
Knight 99, that is why we no longer buy coke cola in our home.
Lagarde, Monti and the Bilderbergers, exactly. Is there anyone left over there with any common sense?
It appears that the Germans are among the minority of European countries that have a measure of some fiscal sanity.
@ Knight 99 at June 22, 2012 3:52 PM
Piigs...don't forget Ireland.
http://community.nasdaq.com/News/2010-04/why-the-piigs-crisis-matters.aspx?storyid=19884
cgh 6:32 p.m. -- Sorry, I should explain: my point in the last paragraph of my 12:12 p.m. post was that I believe that the cumulative impact of a German industrial recession following a collapse of the Euro, together with with the longer-run follow-on costs of adjustment to a higher exchange rate, will still ultimately prove to be less costly for Germany than having to bail out the rest of the Euro-zone over time.
I base my assertion (and that's all it is) on the sickening feeling I get when I hear reports of yet more ad hoc, open-ended and ever more urgent bail-out requests. So far, I think we're already well over a trillion Euros to date, including something like $800 billion Euros having been pledged or requested in just the last couple of weeks.
The other point I would offer is that, if you accept my premise that the Euro is a convenient currency-devaluation mechanism for Germany for which she will now need to pay cash, IMF contributions to Euro-zone members amount to a subsidy for German industrial production and are akin to the wealth transfer provisions of the now defunct Kyoto Accord.
Which would mean that Stephen Harper is being entirely consistent in opposing both. Mr. Mulcair likes to that say he is for "fair trade", whatever that is -- he apparently said it again this morning on Canada A.M. How is a subsidy to Germany from Canada, or any other non-European country for that matter, "fair trade", exactly?
It never ceases to amaze me how the NDP and the Liberals can, with straight faces, get up on their high horses about how irresponsible Mr. Harper is being when he says no to the transfer of Canadian wealth to what are, essentially, Canada's competitors.
Ken (Kulak) >
They stuff the Whitehouse administration and the European Union leadership with ex - Goldman Sachs & JP Morgan executives, then demand bailouts and stimulus packages for the Banks and "To big to fails" from the government treasuries.
If society ever recovers from this global looting, it'll go down as the biggest heist ever conceived. Otherwise we'll just call them master.
Peterj >
Good link, it follows up perfectly with this thread.
Indiana Homez wrote:
"The score was actually 6-luv, but the Greeks borrowed 2 from the Germans, although they wanted 4."
LOL! NICE! Love it!
It was inconceivable just a few short years ago that any EU member could fail. Now with the 3rd bailout behind them and France promising more freebees rather than tightning their belts, it's only a matter of time before it all falls apart. Of course they will blame Germany. Like the rich relative dropping the spoiled brats from his will. I do feel sorry for the Greeks and the others that follow them over the cliff. They only took what was offered by politicians who were only concerned with the next election. No one warned the average Greek that all the freebees were unafordable until the $hit hit the fan. Same in the other PIIGS. Food lines and frayed social safety nets will be the norm for many years to come. Surprised the call to lynch their politicians has not taken root. That will come and I'm sure the politicians will blame Germany. Just like Obama still blames Bush, although he is the one continually making the situation worse.
Also a mistake to underestimate the german military. Something in the gene pool that likes a good fight. Just need the right leader. They work hard. Play hard and have a superiority complex with a can do attitude. Pi$$ them off at your own risk as history has shown from the Romans onward.
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/06/22/nazi-ghost-haunts-austerity-gripped-europe/
I see no real change in attitudes from Italy or France about their fiscal management. Both Spain and Greece outright lied about their financial affairs. As the abyss approaches these countries scream too Germany to save them. I suspect the Germans to let go of the rope to save themselves.
David Southam's assumption that it will be cheaper for the Germans to get out themselves is very accurate. There are a number of northern EU members who will go with the Germans. Germany must already be re-assessing their relationship with Russia. Russia offers a merket, cheap labour and most importantly resources. What do the southern Euro countries have to offer. If Germany leaves will all trade with the south end? German technology is world leading. Quality will count even more when dollars become expensive and scarce.
If Canada sends money to Europe thru the IMF I will end my CPC membership. I had the unfortunate experience of watching Lang & O'Leary the other night. That woman suggested that Canada send money as a sign of solidarity with the Euros. After all our international standing had already taken seerious hits under Harper. She might be the daughter of that old Libel stalwart Otto Land but seriously? Unfortunately in Canaada the retards outnumber the rest by quite a margin.
ct 10:54a.m. -- I'm actually of a mind that Amanda is smart enough to know that her position in the debate you mention is nonsense: I may be naive about these things, but I actually think she gets paid to serve as a foil for Kevin.
I have witnessed first hand (though have never participated in) the scope of taxpayer-funded foreign travel and other expenditure by the retinue of hangers-on of Canadian participation in multilateral "good causes" (like climate change). It seems likely that this has all been scaled back under Stephen Harper, which is the only sense in which our international standing has been effected under the current government.
Even though people like Jeffrey Simpson, etc. find it outrageous that Canada recently failed to win a seat on the UN Security Council, I actually consider this to be a bit of badge of pride: for evidence of activity without purpose, look no further than the Syrian conflict and whom the Security Council's envoy is... And I would note that he certainly seems to have a large retinue of hangers-on as well, if television news footage is to be believed.
I think Mr. Harper is solid on the no funding for Europe front -- and he may actually not have to worry about it much longer, if the break-neck pace of events toward Euro-zone disintegration in yesterday's news is any indication.
As for solidarity with Europe, I think Europe needs a little solidarity with itself before it starts looking to us to get involved -- the Fab 4 meeting yesterday, which was overshadowed by the cat fight between M. Holland's past and present love interests, broke up early (after a call that still another E125 billion be provided for "stimulus" funding) because Frau Merkel had to go to the soccor match, where she was then booed and heckled by Greek fans. Not the best day, I would say, for support for Amanda's position.
peterj@ 11:19;
Your concerns about the awareness of ordinary Euros about their situation is certainly justified.
The same situation exists in Canada in spades. The majority of Canadians seem to think we are in much better shape than we actually are. The NDP are busy building a eastern coalition of envy which if granted government will procede with a raping of the west that simply carries on what has existed thru the countries existance. This time I don't think that success should be assumed or that even if successful that it will save the country. The combined provincial debt of Ont & Que now rivals the Canadian national debt. Budgets are predicated on a 2.5 to 3.5% GDP growth when negative growth is probably the reality.
When the sh*t hits the fan Canada will collapse just as quickly as Euroland is about too.
@ ct
Agree.
My guess is we would be about a year behind Europe and the USA while the demand for our exports dries up.
Eventually the crazy ex-girlfriend gives up and goes home or to get drunk and find a new Mr. Right Now. But Christine Lagarde is still channeling her inner Melissa Etheridge like a broken record for euro bonds to Frau Merkel:
But I'm the only one
Who'll walk across the fire for you
I'm the only one
I believe Merkel's resolve is a testament to just how dour her formative years were in East Berlin. I pray she holds her resolve.
What I don't get is the ECC was hammering on Harper to help bail them, but the Euro is more than the Canbuck.
If you are worried about the value of the Euro to the Loonie then consider the value of the Japanese yuan.
The last gasp of this debt sceanario will be hyper-inflation as governments print money in hopes of devaluing their debt. IMHO this will simply accelerate the loss of faith in the ability of government to manage financial affairs. Once lost it will take a generation to recover.
@ johnbrooks at June 25, 2012 9:55 AM
As long as Germany continues to support the Euro it will retain some legitimacy in strength. When that ends the Euro will drop well under the CDN $.
http://forecast-chart.com/exchange-euro.html
@ FeFe at June 25, 2012 5:15 AM
Great analogy.