Whips and chains

How typical of some clown from Toronto to make such a comment....yet everyday the fool probably sees lots of Quebec license plates go by him which proclaim "Je me souviens".

BC joining confederation was a mistake. They lied about the railroad. We should have asked for independence.

Margaret Thatcher once said, "Socialism is wonderful, until you run out of other people's money."
It would seem, given the diminishing revenue streams from conventional sources, the socialists are now turning to the primary economic engine in Canada in order to fund their idea of utopia.
I'm hopeful that Canadians will see through this folly.
Shades of PET and his NEP.

Canadians will NOT see through this folly. Just look at the recent Alberta election.

Barbara Amiel tagged Bob Rae a "closet communist" when he was Premier of Ontario as ND leader.
Jack Layton was a "the Vladimir Lenin" lookalike in real lifeas well as in ideology.
Tom Mulcair has all the attributes of a dual citizen COMMUNIST maquerading as a Canadian "new democrat".

John the Alberta election has changed the field, now the redford crowd has real conservatives watching over there shoulder and making sure the people see what's going on. Albertans do things with forethought. Next election will see a wildrose sweep.

I doubt if Mulcair will ever change because you can't fix stupid. Someone should remind this twit that he is not in Socialist nirvana known as France. We are the second largest country in the world with one of the smallest populations. Most of the Industry here is owned by outside interests and we are sitting on a fortune in valuable commodities that he thinks should remain untouched in the name of Gaia. I'm trying to show a little class when I say the man is a fool but have no such compulsion for the idiots that agree with his misguided policies.

Mulcair is more Montreal than Toronto, actually. From what I can tell he speaks French with great fluency - better than J. Layton, who always came across with a heavy Anglo accent, I am told.

I keep asking, why the "Dutch" disease? Why not the Scottish disease? Anyone in the NsDaP ever hear of Aberdeen? Oil exploration and extraction is probably their only industry of signficance. And why not "Norwegian disease"? Or "German disease"? The morons can't read a map.

He's going there with radicals (his enviro critic, for one) whispering in his ear constantly. The outcome of this visit has already been predetermined.

His stance won't change one bit.

The NEP was not a mistake, it was deliberate policy, by eastern Liberal politicians and bureaucrats, intended to destroy western Canadian industry and wealth.

Easy to say if you hadn't lost your home, savings, job with Trudeau's NEP.
If by a freak of nature the oil sands were in Quebec, they would have left confederation a couple of decades ago.

Easy to say if you hadn't lost your home, savings, job with Trudeau's NEP.
If by a freak of nature the oil sands were in Quebec, they would have left confederation a couple of decades ago.

The NEP may have been a mistake made 30 years ago but the left would gladly make that mistake again. They would love to destroy the economy of western Canada while using divisive politics to consolidate power in Ontario and Quebec. They will never learn from their mistakes because other people are the ones that suffer. This is why I truly hate leftists and hope the worst for them. They are self destructive and dangerous morons who equate economic disaster and poverty as being "progressive" as long as we all suffer together. Idiots!

Where does JG think Mulcair is going with this. Does he think that Mulcair is going to give us back our $8B/year to do environment research and cleanup? Maybe not, how about another $8B/year in resource taxes to go into the Quebec treasury.

Martin, I'm one of those that lost my job during that time. Others lost a heck of a lot more than me. I was 19 yrs old and just getting started. I left Saskatchewan when I was 18 to go to Alberta like thousands of others just to have Trudeau come in and crap on us. My hatred for anything commie still burns to this day. This ain't going to get better people. Its time for drastic measures. I call it the Republic of Western Canada.

Kinda off topic, but I hear they are going to rename the Toronto Island ferry terminal after Jack! They should have just renamed the street where he got the massage after him. More fitting.

WTF is Mulcair doing. Does he not realize that the NDP in the West is a lot less ideological than those in Ontario and Quebec. A western flip flop would involve deciding between the NDP and Conservatives, the Libs not being part of the equation. Why would a national leader choose to write off a region? Trudeau wrote off the west and then wrote off Quebec, destroying the Liberals 20 years before their actual death.

How long will those on the right use the NEP to batter Liberals? Until they pay that debt back. How much did it cost the western provinces? many billions, some say about 80 billions, so when the check is in the mail and it's cleared many of us will call it off, but NO as Lance says above, I'm never going to forget this. Never.

The national redistribution tax / gift / equalization, adds to that debt, although I doubt the dough heads in the NDP / Liberal / BQ understand that.

Ezra Levant (hosted by Jerry Egar) last night had a guest talking about all of the untapped resources in Quebec. The buggers have been collecting transfer payments for 55 years and are sitting on a wealth of their own resources. Wanna bet that when things turn bad for Alberta and Quebec is forced to start tapping those resources, Quebec will change the rules? I believe profits from Quebec's hydro-electric are already excluded from the transfer payment formula.

I wonder if this little d ouche knows anyone who lost everything thanks to the NEP. Alot of Albertans do and will never forget the attempted destruction of the province at the hands of the Lieberals...

Like 'oldfart' says, it was no mistake. I will never forget the n.e.p. I was in Alberta at the time. I won't go on or I might say what I really feel about commies and that might get me arrested.

I began workin the oil patch in 1965. Forty seven years later I still work in the oil patch. I'll get over the NEP when the rivers cease to flow and the grass does not grow. So, JG and Mulcair, in the words of the immortal Maclean and Maclean, take a long hard suck on my a**.

oldfart at May 31, 2012 1:10 PM

Exactly right. I'd add that it also deliberately ran contrary to the 1867 Confederation Act which clearly states the resources are the sole jurisdiction of the provinces.

Deliberately contravening the Act of Confederation itself is no small matter. Albertans who called for separation from Confederation because of it were only drawing the logical conclusion indicated by the Eastern elected government's willingness to unilaterally abrogate that clause by legislating the NEP.

Ontario advises Western Canada to lay back and enjoy it, apparently oblivious to the gelding knife she's been keeping in her purse for that last 30 years.

@Grandad at 2:34, Well said sir, I too will never forgive or forget what the Liberals and the NEP did to us out west, and thanks for the M & M quote.

I was graduating the year the NEP dropped, recruiting on campus from the oil patch industries and secondary businesses disappeared overnight. Our professional degrees became so much scrap paper.

JohnPeg says "Canadians will NOT see through this folly. Just look at the recent Alberta election."

Well, you have to look close at the Alberta election rather than sucking up the spin from the media. The truth is, the popular vote for the PC's dropped from 55% in 2008 to 44% this time. The Wildrose, on the other hand, went from just under 7% to 34%. That is what really happened. The majority for the PC's is simply the result of some bizarre math, but the popular vote tells the tale.

Scar, Mulcair is doing this deliberately. He's not stupid, as some commenterss above have claimed. Quite the opposite: he's a very intelligent man, and that's what makes him dangerous.

He's deliberately stirring up east-west passions as a way of securing NDP hold on Quebec. His strategy is to eliminate the remnant of the BQ by ensuring that the NDP takes over all of their positions on just about everything. And to eliminate the Liberals from all the deep left uraban ridings in Toronto, Hamilton, Windsor, Vancouver, Halifax and the like. He doesn't give a damn about you westerners, because none of you will vote for him anyway even if he plays nice.

For Mr. Mulcair, the road to power in Canada is a simple one, though complex to execute. He needs to get nearly all of Quebec to vote for him. Add to that some seats from Vancouver, another batch from all the urban ridings in Ontario, and split the Maritimes, and he's got roughly enough to form a government, wiping out most of the Liberals en route.

He thinks he's found a wedge issue between leftist voters in urban Canada and the western right wing. More than ever before, the next federal election will be fought in Ontario, where the battle will be Conservative Western Canada vs. NDP Quebec.

This isn't really about the oil sands. It's about the NDP securing their hold on Quebec and making a credible threat to win the next federal election. And you westerners can do virtually nothing about it. Given the already entrenched majorities in the above two regions, its Ontario will decide the thing, just as it did in 2011.

I'd have to agree with cgh. The NDP need to focus on holding Quebec from the Liberals and Bloc first. Otherwise they're back to being a 3rd or 4th place party.

Oh we will never forget, nor forgive. This NEP was not a person, but an evil policy pushed by Marxist ideology. Forced on the West to destroy any wealth in this region. Than consolidate more power in the East. Thank God it never worked.
It broke many individuals though, probably held back Canadian wealth for 25 years.
People from the East barely understand what this policy did out here, & to Canadian Unity. Let alone any trust towards the East ever again.

At 46, he dismisses speculation he could be a candidate to lead the federal Conservatives one day. He doesn’t speak French, he says.

And that just fascinates me. The persistence of such notions when Quebec and the rest of the French speaking population would not likely vote conservative anyway. One of the best ways to cleave their influence is to elect officials who do not speak French. Or is Canada's national identity more French than I perceive?

'Canadians will NOT see through this folly. Just look at the recent Alberta election.'
Posted by: JohnPeg at May 31, 2012 12:41 PM

Well observed, JohnPeg - I am in the same group and of the same opinion as oldduffer, Jon Anderson, Oz, Al the Fish and Grandad. The NEP brings bitterness against everything Liberal to the point of my pointy head. I saw so many people distroyed and so many hopes and dreams ruthlessly crushed by Turdo and his 'Czars'. The sadness was way beyond hatred for the politicians responsible, it was personal and it will always be with me.

The Wildrose has plenty of sane people supporting the sane policy of the Wildrose Party but Alberta has 4 long, disasterous, debt inducing years to spend with the Agenda 21 fan, Alta's gal Al, at the helm. Four years is a long time - just look to the Yukon to see how the last frontier turned into a tightly governed, over regulated, gument territory with all people dependent on gument; in less than four years of Dipper spending! Almost all real Yukoners left the Yukon because the gument shut down all independent business people via rules and regulations and park creation and indigenous rights and importatation of southern socialist pals to sit in gument offices. Once a place gets the Dippers, they stay and dig in their heels (see the bureaucratic back stabbing of the Federal Conservative M.P.s). Never let them in - like bed bugs, they have to be starved out and they make life hell before, during and after fumigation; some always stay alive and active.

Albertans made a huge mistake; Al is a UN drop-in and her mission is to 'humble' Alberta. She even said that during the campaign. Alta's gal Al is to Alta what America's Barry O is to USA. Both not there to serve Americans/Albertans, both there to frount for Un Agenda 21.

The Western provinces have to,like Quebec,collect the income tax and then send the federal share to Ottawa like Quebec.If Alberta had done that during the NEP it would have lasted less than a week. The cheques in the mail but it would have sat in Edmonton and Regina till it was settled.

What Jema said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IN SPADES!

My father lost his business, his house, and my inheritance to the NEP. He died virtually penniless.

Never forget, never forgive. I not only live it, I teach it to my children.

How long?

As long as tw@ts like JG in TO are around shooting off their ignorant yaps?

NEP. was going to get married and a new job. Neither came through due to the difficulties from it.

While I didn't loose as much financially, I did loose 'fiancely', so to speak. Took me years to get over it and clue in that financial pressure does strange things to people's mind.

cgh - I agree with you that Mulcair's agenda re the oil sands is to secure the NDP hold on Quebec. But, is this tribalist adversarial approach the right tactic?

Quebec defines itself not geographically, ie, as a geographic component of Canada, but linguistically. As francophone - which is most certainly not a component of Canada. Quebec's filiate allegiances are with francophones all over the world. The anglophone world remains, as it did since, well, since forever, alien and unacceptable.

In addition to this linguistic tribalism - and it's tribalism not multicultural diversity - which sees Others as Adversaries and meant to be shunned and vilified, Quebec defines its lifestyle as socialist.

The fact that this socialist lifestyle is only possible by Quebec's being economically, politically and socially 'kept', cocooned, within the economic security net of Canada, is totally ignored by Quebecers.

Many of the bright minds of Quebec have tried to move Quecebers from this mindset of entitlement, such as Lucien Bouchard, but their words to 'wake up and get to work' have failed to incite any change.

The bloated bureaucracy which has its tentacles everywhere, the corrupt unionization and its filiation with government and the elite lifestyle of this Set, goes along with a massive black market economy in Quebec and an insistence that the ROC support Quebec 'just because'.

The NDP won in Quebec only because the voters were voting against the Bloc who were not maintaining this economic cocoon in a robust enough fashion. Can the NDP maintain this shallow vote?

Is Mulcair's divisionary tactics work? He's setting up Quebec as 'pure and noble and a victim- and trying to set up the Evil Other as the West. The facts don't support this image but that's not relevant.
And, he's using the socialist utopian image of 'environmental purity' to describe the West.

The question is: can this tactic of describing Quebec as Pure and a Victim of Evil Capitalism, really work to maintain NDP power in Quebec?

I think that it's shallow, it's pure rhetoric, and needs reality to maintain its functionality. Therefore, I don't think it will work. It didn't work for the Bloc.

The West is no longer politically or economically weak; it won't allow a second Trudeau tactic of vilification. Furthermore, Mulcair's tactic of trying to reverse the economic and demographic changes which have made the West the strength of Canada, ...and return Canada to its pre-1960s era of Ontario-Quebec domination, won't work. Because reality trumps fiction. The West is the reality of Canada's economic strength.

Quebec has a choice. Either continue to live within the fictional cocooned world of entitlements paid by an increasingly angry Other. Or, follow Bouchard's advice and, grow up and invest in and work up their own economy.

ET, interesting thoughts. There's one statement you made that is up for debate, namely about tribalism. In general I would suggest that Quebeckers in general have little interest or regard for francophones outside Quebec in the rest of Canada. By contrast, they are highly defensive about the geographical boundaries of what they think of as their province. Hence their long standing dispute with Newfoundland over Labrador and ignoring the fact that the District of Ungava belongs to Canada and is only part of Quebec under trust.

It defines itself geographically as a nation, part of Canada only because of a small accident in 1758. One of the facts ignored by popular misconceptions about their past is that they were sold down the river by the King of France in not one but three consecutive wars.

All the rest of your post I agree with entirely.

Now for the main question, is it the right tactic? I'm presuming you mean merely will it be effective, not whether or not there is any moral or ethical position behind it.

In that limited sense, it may be effective. Quebec politicians have often been successful when they highlight the differences between Quebec and ROC. The BQ survived more than 20 years in the H of C merely by spouting a string of stale grievances. The difference with the NDP is that it is a national party and can have the potential to form a government which the Bloc never could. There may be less of a sense of "wasted votes" with the NDP than the Bloc on the part of Quebec voters. That is, rather than simply complaining, the NDP may someday be in position to implement what they supposedly stand for.

So in the short term it may well be effective in cementing the NDP toehold on Quebec. This gives them a national power base, replacing the one they lost in Saskatchewan, and further drives the Liberals into political oblivion. Only time will tell whether or not it works, but for the Dippers, realistically, it's their most viable strategy.

The long term consequences of course are adverse for Canada. It will deepen the divide between the West and Quebec. This is unhealthy for Quebec in the long run because of its financial dependence which you noted. It's unhealthy for Quebec because nothing in this will create any reform of its bloated bureaucracy and deeply entrenched sense of entitlement.

Will it work at all? Who knows, only time will tell. But it's the only strategy they have. Can it fail? Yes, depending upon the degree of revulsion generated in the rest of Canada. The Dippers are trying to mitigate against the latter by disguising it in Green language of "Sustainable Development".

cgh - yes, I agree that Quebecers have no interest in francophones outside of Quebec. Their filiation, linguistically, is with francophones elsewhere in the world - not with any peripherals in the ROC.

And I agree with your comment on their defensive focus on 'their geographic territory'. Now, to the functionality of Mulcair's tactic of division.

I'm going to suggest that it won't work. It might have been successful several decades ago, during the naive romance era of the Charter, with its focus on defining Canada within the ideals of bilingualism and multiculturalism. But neither of these rhetorical goals (in the Charter) are grounded in reality. I think what is going on now is that reality is rubbing out the words of that rhetorical era.

People are less willing to live within these rhetorical goals, they are more aware of the financial costs of being-what-we are not (bilingual, focused only around Ontario and Quebec); we are more aware of the costs of equalization; we are more aware of the realities of Canada as an expanding industrial nation.

I don't think you can turn the clock back, economically and demographically. The economic and demographic strength or energy or focus of Canada has shifted to the West. That's reality.

Even five years ago, I don't think we would have seen the open resentment against Quebec and its demands that we see expressed daily in blogs, in talk shows, in letters to editors. Canadians are less willing to put up with Quebec's insistence on special treatment, and far more aware of the economic growth of the West, and its role in our international role.

As for the Green emphasis by Mulcair, again, I think that environmentalism has lost much of its ability to instill guilt, to insist on some notion of purity in our lifestyles.

Therefore, I'm suggesting that Mulcair's tactics for binding Quebecers to his side are out of date. Maintaining Quebec as anti-West and anti-Canada; maintaining Quebec as leftist and environmental; and maintaining Quebec as dependent on federal handouts is not only a manipulative diservice to Quebec - but, it's a tactic that I'm suggesting has long passed its 'best use' date.

Quebec defines itself as a nation. Reasonably enough; you can draw a distinction between the French Canadian nation and Quebec, but since the nation has its origins in Quebec territory, and the vast majority of its members live there now, it's not a practical distinction. Almost all the French Canadians live in Quebec, almost all Quebeckers are French Canadians; Quebec is functionally the national state.

And it is a matter of nationality, not language as such. Nobody thinks you can become a real Quebecker merely by speaking French. You need blood relatives who are, and if you weren't born with them then you'd better produce them by marrying into the nation.

Which of course has not been done. Quebec is in demographic free-fall. The option of growing up has been forgone; Quebec as a nation is going to lie down and die.

So, the future of Quebec as a province is wide open. One could easily imagine Quebec in 20 years time with a vibrant productive economy; one can even imagine it speaking French. But one can't imagine it being a French Canadian national state. It will be cosmopolitan and polyglot and devoid of national identity; and, as such, it will have no reason not to want to remain part of Canada. And of course, Quebec could easily be starving in 20 years time, but it won't be the French Canadians starving, but the people who replaced them.

I'm as fiscally conservative as they come, but the same could be said for Grant Devine. Raped, pillaged and mismanaged our province into the ground. Now people are starting to say, 'Yeah, but we can't keep dwelling on that."

Yeah, how'd the people of Sask deal with Devine's party, Skytrail?

Oh, right, same way Alberta dealt with Liberals.

And now "Skytrail" comes back with "Brad Wall's Saskatories" - ignoring that it was FIVE LIBERALS who joined four PCs to create the SK Party in 1997. And that Ken Krawetz came from the Grit side of the family to lead it in the Legislature.

I would be willing to bet that after the next Federal election that Canada will have a coalition government consisting of the NDP and Lieberals with Mulcair as Prime Minister.This is what Mulcair is after,he knows that the ROC can elect a Conservative majority without Quebec we already have.What he really needs is those immigrant and ethnic minority seats around Toronto that always vote lieberal no matter what.So with his solid support in Quebec and pockets in BC plus the support of Buffalo Boob Rae Ontarios resident hybrid and whatever seats he can scrounge in Manitoba its Good Morning Mr. Prime Minister.The beginning of the end for Canada as a country,actually Mulcair is just watering the seeds sown by Turdeau.

I seem to remember that the only reason that the NDP defeated the Hermansin Sask party was that the liberals decided to show their true colours and joined the NDP,thus keeping them in office. Trudeau started the shift and he succeded in setting the stage for the death of the liberal party. Trudeau was NOT a liberal.

There is a critical mass of French-Canadians in NB...the Acadiens.....who resent the Quebecois because the Quebecois resent them....no solidarity there....

Quebecois regard Acadiens as bastard french....speaking a bastard dialect...much like Metropolitan French regard Quebecois and their Provincial....

They all have the same threat to their linguistic tribalism....English....resistance IS futile...they WILL be assimilated...

Quebec lost the "battle of the cradle" decades back....

So Peeping Tom peeped at the oil-sands, big deal, this clown has as much chance of becoming PM of Canada as the peacock before him, let him rant and rave, the leftie world is crumbling so fast it makes sand castles look like a viable alternative housing project. The fools an idiot.

cgh:
Some excellent posts.

Can Mulcair succeed? No doubt he can. The CPC took less than 40% of the vote. The NDP are solidifying their position in Quebec and their national success depends on how quickly the Libels continue to disintegrate. What's the saying 'Unite the Left'. Leftards are so dillusional they will vote for anybody but SH.

For easterners who think the West should get over the NEP, think again. The history of the West has been one of exploitation by easterners. The NEP was simply one more effort. The most recent was the 'carbon tax' being promoted by Dion and the Libels. It is all about getting a piece of the cash flow. They already take about $25 billion per year through 'Equalization' which everyone seems to accept as 'normal'.

Complacency is the enemy of the West. The commodity boom of recent years has lulled many into a false sense of financial security. As the world drifts into a generational depression the resource revenue will dry up. Oh, I forgot, easterners shipped relief out west during the Depression by the carload! Not to worry.

"The NEP was a mistake made 30 years ago. How long do you Conservatives think you can milk this grievance and still maintain your credibility? Grow up and get over it. Time to move on boys and girls."

Because, as everyone knows, only Conservatives would ever milk ancient grievances in Canada.

Right?

ET: I agree with you that Mulcair is trying to turn the clock back with these tactics, and that Canada today is not the Canada of the 1970s. I would simply note two points: 1. that there have been a number of politicians throughout history who have campaigned on just that basis and been successful in the short term. The politics of grievance, if done effectively, can whip voters into a fury. 2. It's the only real strategy the NDP has available to win a national mandate. Even a weak strategy is better than nothing at all. The real question is whether or not he can sell it in Ontario as well.

EBT: Agreed, that's why they call it "pur laine". It's the province with the lowest birthrate in the country, and all of its population growth is immigration. One of the responses of once dominant groups in politics is an increase in racism and intolerance, and we've already seen that in Quebec, "Money and the ethnic vote!"

You are right that it will not succeed in the long run as francophones over the next two generations or so become a minority in their own province. The question is how much damage their attempts to deny reality will create through exponents such as Mulcair.

CT: "Complacency is the enemy of the West." Yes indeed it is. But here's the thing. The West has one thing that Quebec does not, and ultimately it's the power that trumps everything. Money. Money and a strong growing economy which is pulling the nation along with it will always sooner or later accrue political power. It's doing it now. Alberta and Saskatchewan have a chronic shortage of labour which will only grow over the years to come. That draws more Canadians into the West, ultimately reflected in shifting representation within the H of C. That means more political power at the expense of others.

You Albertans WANT more Canadians coming into the province from outside. That strengthens the west with more people, more voters and more clout. Where has Quebec's exclusionary policies vis a vis language got it? No one immigrates their unless they ONLY speak French.

In short, whether or not Mulcair succeeds in the short run, everything he's doing in defence of Quebec exclusivity will ultimately fail under the drivers of money, economic power and shifting populations. A thousand years ago Canute ordered the tides to stop in an exercise to demonstrate to sycophantic courtiers that there were limits to royal power. Mulcair isn't quite as bright as a crafty old Danish king.