More Pavilions At Folkfest

Creeping sharia.

And the PC TDSB folds like a cheap vinyl deck chair.

What's the big deal? Attendance is purely optional, it costs the school (and hence the taxpayer) nothing, and it avoids students having to leave school early on Fridays.

Try to squeeze in a little Christian prayer and see what happens.

I read somewhere that the cafeteria is being used. If that's the case, how long before all the children are required to observe Islamic dietary rules? I can't imagine that ham sandwiches and mosques go well together.

More and more Toronto is starting to look like another country.

So Davenport will be calling up the Jewish Rabbi, Catholic Priest, Sikh Guru, Buddhist Monk, etc so they can all have their turn on the public dime...?

Oh the heresy...you can't have those godforsaken Christians holding prayer services, in a devil may care way, because these are, pardon my coronary, public secular institutions.

Where are all those hypocritical secular, separation of Mosque and State advocates now? Where is the outrage, the hue and cry, oh the humanity...

Oh truly my dear Davenport "The Farce" is with you.

Cheers

Hans Rupprecht, C in C

1st St. Nicolaas Army
Army Group “True North"

Video of Charles Adler and Ron Banerjee discussing this issue yesterday.

No, davenport, you are quite mistaken.

The use of the school cafeteria DOES cost the taxpayer, for the taxpayer is funding this non-academic usage. The religious group is obtaining a religious hall - paid for not by members of their religion (as would be the case with a mosque) but by the taxpayer.

Second, the children ARE leaving the school early. You can't be suggesting that these prayers are part of the school curriculum and therefore, these children are not in class.

If their religion requires - and please note the word - requires, children to attend a Friday prayer session, then it is up to the religion (not the taxpayer) to provide the accomodation and the time...after school hours.

Incremental moves; each step of "The Camel's Nose In The Tent" is regarded, (by some), as "No big deal" and even (again, to some....the suckers, that is), as acknowledgement of their own 'tolerance & understanding'.

"Softly, softly, catchee monkey" and suddenly one day, much to their surprise, they're out of the tent and the entrance is barred.

They'll never see it coming and they won't understand what happened once it arrives.

a different bob: "Try to squeeze in a little Christian prayer and see what happens."

If student participation is optional, and it's not on the public's dime, my guess is nothing will happen (including not a peep from SDA and other right-wing blogs).

Banerjee made an interesting point on Charles Adler's show last night, namely, and this is yet to be confirmed, that the meat being served in the cafeterias is all halal. That's not a big stretch since there are school districts in England where that is already the case. The crunch comes insofar as Hindus cannot eat halal meat since the method of slaughter is not the most humane possible which is what the Hindus require. The irresistible force is about to collide with the immovable post!

The school pays nothing, no one is inconvenienced or forced to partake and of course people bitch. BFD. They pray it makes sense in a school where 80-90% of people are Muslim. This is no more 'creeping Sharia' than Christians praying at school is 'creeping Jesusland'.

Not just schools, DrD: there are supermarkets in England that have been selling halal meat without labeling it as such.

I am guessing others had already complained, but it took a Hindu group to complain for the TDSB to actually listen.

ET: "The religious group is obtaining a religious hall - paid for not by members of their religion (as would be the case with a mosque) but by the taxpayer."

The prayer session is held after lunch, when the cafeteria would otherwise sit empty anyway. There's no marginal cost of holding the session there vs not holding it there, ergo no additional cost to the taxpayer.

"Second, the children ARE leaving the school early. You can't be suggesting that these prayers are part of the school curriculum and therefore, these children are not in class."

The alternative is that 400 kids sign out of school after lunch on Fridays and walk, unsupervised, to the local mosque 15 minutes away. The school's experience prior to setting up this arrangement was that most never came back, meaning an entire half-day of educational instruction was lost for a third of the student body every week. Holding the prayers on school grounds means all the kids are back in class within 40 minutes. The students are fine with this, the (tax-paying) parents are fine with this, the local community is fine with this, the educators are fine with this, and the school board is fine with this.

So I ask again: what's the big deal here? Oh right, it involves Muslims...

How about the Muslim kids go do their prayers AFTER the school day? If they leave for half a day every Friday, expel them for lack of attendance.

It is our experience that Christian activity is not allowed in Ontario Public schools during school hours. A school room may be rented by a Christian group after school hours for Christian activities. But so may any group. So, it seems to me that Muslims are given privileges not available to other groups.

davenport and libertarian - you are both wrong.

The school board should not be expected to pay anything, therefore, why on earth are you touting that 'the school pays nothing' as if it were some kind of a benefit???

And, you are both missing the point: the school board DOES pay for the religious group's non-academic use of the school premises. This means that the group does not have to, themselves, rent or own a hall for their religious functions. The taxpayer is providing it for them.

Could you explain why the taxpayer should fund a religious group's use of the school premises for their religious services?

Equally, your comment that 'attendance is optional' is totally and completely irrelevant. The key question is: why should the taxpayer be funding a religious group's use of school premises?

After all, there are schools were a majority of the students are Chinese. Do these schools provide the Chinese community with the free use of their premises to hold Chinese New Year's celebrations?
There are schools where the majority of students are Christian. Does the school provide their premises for use as a Sunday school?
There are schools where the majority of students are Jewish. Does the school provide its premises for prayer service?

You are both totally missing the point. It isn't about 'multiculturalism'; it's about ONE religion using a taxpayer funded building for its own private - not public - use. Could you explain why you support this use of the taxpayer money?

Tony Blair's Canada?

The principle is the dummy who caused all this...

According to him some students with parental permission to attend friday prayers at the mosque, were skipping out and not going to prayers.
So instead of calling their parents and explaining that if their children don't go to friday prayer then they don't get friday afternoon off ...it's the law,
He forces EVERYONE else to change, accomodate, and comply, by bringing the prayers into the school.
Apparently muslim girls must sit in the back of the class.

On the bright side...
There's a quick easy out for the principle and the school board...
Stipulate the prayers can continue if female muslims can sit at the front.
No seperate rules or teachings...for females.

$20.00 bucks says Friday prayers go back to the mosque!
Quickly and quietly.

It involves religion in a public school!
So when can my child get his Christian bible class in a public school?
While I am at it I demand the reading of the lords prayer from now on in my child's class.
What do you think of that couchpotato?

Well, no Davenport.....not all the parents ARE fine with this. That's why there are concerns being raised.

I guess if "the school's experience prior to setting up this arrangement was that most never came back", the teachers were probably pretty happy about that given many don't really want to teach anyway. If the Muslims want to have their own school which bends to their will, then set up a private school to do so. But that's the way it always seems to be.....society must bend to them rather than the other way around.

It's intriguing to note some of practices that accompany this. For example, the boys sit in front. girls in back The TDSB will scream loud and long about sexism in any form, but tolerates this because it involves muslims. It is not just tolerating this religion; it is tacitly endorsing islam and telling every student in the school there is one special and preferred belief.
This is hypocrisy of the highest order and it's just a beginning. As for the attempted Christian equivalence, it doesn't happen, and I don't want it to happen either.
And, before I forget, davenport, you're a piece of crap.

ET writes, "davenport and libertarian - you are both wrong." You're not kidding, ET--and their comments are completely idiotic. Neither one has a CLUE what s/he's talikng about. I'll be back on this.

The difference, davenport, is that Allah does not keep our land glorious and free.

I sure hope all those other faiths take up the OHRC assertion that their religions have to be accomadated in schools, this is going to get ugly because we all know the only faith the HRCs will force our schools to accomadate is their beloved Islammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

ET: "Equally, your comment that 'attendance is optional' is totally and completely irrelevant."

Yeah, as declared by you. Except that in the context of religion in public schools, the issue of mandatory versus voluntary participation is actually quite central.

"There are schools where the majority of students are Christian. Does the school provide their premises for use as a Sunday school?"

If they asked, and it cost the school nothing to give them access on a weekend, then why not?

"There are schools where the majority of students are Jewish. Does the school provide its premises for prayer service?"

If they asked, then why not?

FREE: "So when can my child get his Christian bible class in a public school? While I am at it I demand the reading of the lords prayer from now on in my child's class."

That's exactly the point, FREE -- a Christian bible class would cost taxpayer money (copies of the bible, a qualified instructor, etc.) -- that's a no-no in public schools. Forcing all students, in every classroom, to listen to a recitation of the Lord's prayer -- that's also a no-no in public schools (the voluntary versus mandatory issue that ET thinks is "totally and completely irrelevant").

But if your child wants to excuse him/herself from class, find a quiet corner in the cafeteria, and recite the lords prayer with her fellow Christians, then all the best to him/her. That's what accommodation is all about.

The mosque services start at 12:30 in the afternoon. Can jewish and hindu kids go back in and get their books they forgot once mosque starts? Do they take their shoes off? What happens if there's a fire evacuation in the winter at the shoe pile if there is one? Can a Jewish woman clean the cafeteria before mosque?
If I was a custodian and I refused to clean up and convert the cafeteria for mosque because it goes against my job description and ethics who would hear my case and what would OPSEU say and do. Does the cafeteria get cleaned again after the mosque?

If this works out maybe they can use the P.A. system for the call to prayer, the home ec. classes to cut the clits off the girls and the gym for stoning apostates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90oljZ0loAc

The alternative is that 400 kids sign out of school after lunch on Fridays and walk, unsupervised to the local mosque 15 minutes away

OMG! An unsupervised 15-minute walk!

/faints

davenport - are you being intentionally dumb?

The fact that the cafeteria is empty after lunch is totally and completely irrelevant. After all, if 'emptiness' is the only qualification for use, then, why not have it given - also rent free - to any and all community groups: the baseball club, the church choir, the...

The point is, a particular non-academic group totally unconnected to the school, is getting a taxpayer funded hall FOR FREE - and surely you must be aware that even an empty room has COSTS! Ever heard of heating, infrastructure maintenance, wear and tear of use of premises, cleaning etc?

Then, you point out 'no additional cost to the taxpayer' as if this were a value! But the taxpayer shouldn't be expected to pay for religious services of any type!!! What is there about this FACT that is escaping you??

So - they are let out of school early? Unsupervised? So, why can't the religious group have a paid or volunteer supervisor there to ensure that these recalcitrant youngsters actually go to the prayers? After all, it is not the school's duty to ensure that the students pray. It's the responsibility of the parents (and why can't volunteer parents oversee this??)..and the religious group. NOT THE SCHOOL.

And the same with the students - who apparently were SKIPPING OUT ON GOING TO PRAYERS...that's the duty of the parents. Not the school. It's up to the parents to ensure their children go, unwillingly, to prayers.

And ensuring that they return to school? But they get the afternoon off! Same thing. That's the duty of the parents to oversee their children.

Now, could you explain to me why the taxpayer should fund this use of the school as a religious site? And don't try the 'it doesn't cost the taxpayers anything'...because that room's basic existence - whether it's empty or full - costs the taxpayer the same amount.

As for people complaining - they do complain. Furthermore, the legitimate use of the building rests in itself - not on whether or not anyone complains. I want to know why a religious group obtains the use of a taxpayer funded hall - without their paying any rent or fees.

I don't know about Ontario but, where I attended public school there was a mandatory number of hours that the school had to be open every year. If a large percentage of students are being arbitrarily excused every day, thus disrupting the operation of the school, isn't that contrary to regulations?

BTW, my kids attended a private, English language school in Morocco. There were lots of Muslim kids enrolled, and they certainly didn't have special privileges vis a vis class time. I doubt that they will all burn in hell for receiving equal treatment.

davenport - you are moving into irrelevant red herring terrain with your 'why not' comments. The fact is: this particular religious group is using a taxpayer hall - rent free. And to declare that this is fine for ALL groups...'all they have to do is ask'..is rubbish.
WHO is going to pay for the wear and tear, the cleaning, the heating..if ALL the local religious and creed groups demand use of taxpayer funded buildings - rent free?

And the 'attendance is optional' is of course irrelevant to any attempt to justify a private group's rent-free use of public space.

davenport - are you seriously equating a child's individual isolation of himself (and a few friends) to a quiet corner to read the bible, with one particular religious group being allowed the private use of the whole cafeteria for their use and their use alone..? Are you actually equating the two?

This is only the start. Canada will burn because we don't stand up to this. It's time to say enough is enough and root these things out of this country. Send them back where they came from.[NOW]

How quick comes the unsubstantiated claim that to oppose special treatment for a particular religion/faith makes one a hater of Islam. The issue here is granting special treatment to Islam. Were it special treatment given to another religion/faith my opposition would be the same. This is a public school and not a religious school.

On behalf of the large congregation of religious sceptics,... we demand equal time!

As for approved food, we're fond of steak and lobster.

The lobster is required to be blessed with butter.

In Ontario all public schools are supposedly to be free of any religious indoctrination. That includes the saying of the Lord's Prayer, any Christian observances like Easter and Christmas.

So, why the exception for Muslims? Funny question that, we know for a start it's politics in the Leftist bastion of Toronto. That aside, it's insidious and if not stopped it will proliferate.

I shudder at this, and wonder what this country will look like and represent in another decade or two if we are going to sell out to all comers.

"Schools as shields, children as weapons"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWtEjsbJ_kE

What happens when the Imam starts up teaching that super peaceful Koran verse " the rocks and trees will say there is Jew behind me come and kill him" in the caf?

Is it impossible not to imagine one of the little darlings following with "Mrs Goldfarb is behind the deep fryer right now."?

Davenport conveniently overlooks the total ban on wearing cruxifix or other religious symbols but the headscarf is OK? Howcum?

These darling adberents of "The Religion Of Peace" had a hissy fit because a Copt girl exposed her lower arms in a GTA school. Copts tattoo a cross on the underside of girls' wrists to prevent their abduction and forced marriege by muslims in Eygpt.

Do public schools mean it when they say NO religion exists within their walls or not?

Had this been about Christianity and that "dreaded" Christmas holiday, there would no accommodation whatsoever. Because this is about a group that demands accommodation or else, people bend over.

If the Muslims wish to pray at any hour, they can start their own schools.

First the Saturday people then the Sunday people. The lefties don't have the guts to do it. So why not embrace those that will. (Ah those pesky Christians and Jews how dare they protest!!)

I still think the best solution is send them all back to the middle east and then turn it into a glass bowl.

I even volunteer to push the button.

rita, thanks for this article: the dozens of the nearly 1300 comments at that Globe and Mail I've read are generally excellent and raise all kinds of valid issues. What comes through “loud and clear” is the idiocy of the TDSB.

I wrote the following to a retired principal friend of mine. (He’s not a Christian—I am—but he’s very concerned about what this board is doing.) “This ‘Little Mosque in the Cafeteria’ is disturbing to the nth degree. Apparently, the TDSB said that it’s a ‘safety’ issue: boys—only—would leave the school for Friday prayers and then some would play hooky. Also, the TDSB said they were allowing Muslim prayers on site with an imam because it cut down on instruction time missed. (Cry me a river!) Did the board ever offer to do Christian or Jewish prayers at school to keep the kids on site, let’s say, on Ash Wednesday or Yom Kippur?

“This is creeping Sharia law: it’s called ‘lawfare’—Muslims, and this is happening everywhere in the West, use our own laws and tolerant values to infiltrate. What idiots we are to welcome the fox into the henhouse—with open arms! The Muslims say they ‘must’ have prayers at certain times. Fine. But, separation of religion—or is it just Christianity?—and state, that our ‘progressive’ education system has implemented (even though such separation is an American, not a Canadian, concept), would seem to dictate that Muslim prayers are a problem for the Muslims—not the public school system. The capitulation of the TDSB administrators to political correctness is abominable.

“So, let’s have separation of religion and state, and insist that Muslims look after their religious needs apart from the public school system—just like the rest of us. Not to mention that Islamic values are the polar opposite of the ones championed by ‘progressive’ feminists and others in the board. I really think these people are deluded: imams are rabidly against just about everything the ‘progressives’ are rabidly in favour of.

At the very same time, the fine inheritance of Christianity in the West is denigrated in the public school boards. How about Magna Carta, rule of law, Parliamentary government, the American Declaration of Independence, our universities and universal education systems, hospitals, orphanages, the greatest visual and musical art ever created, incredible architecture, and the huge amount of care of all kinds that Christianity provides to this day, directly—through the churches—and indirectly—via the myriad institutions founded by the church? Not to mention the Second Great Commandment: ‘Love thy neighbour as thyself’, which undergirds all the other structures.

“Islam: there is no second commandment . . . It’s tribal, and revenge is a huge part of it. The Judeo-Christian dispensation is: ‘Vengeance is mine,’ says the Lord. And Christians are to love and pray for their enemies.

“However, in polls of students these days: even though their heads are full of the anti-bullying meme—a VERY Judeo-Christian concept—they generally do a lot of bullying, while having a very negative view of Christianity—just what they’ve been taught, mainly by omission in elementary schools, but deliberately, especially in our universities.

“This inversion of the truth is very dangerous: when the denigration of one’s own, quite heroic, noble, and charitable—as the world goes—heritage is sacrificed on the altar of tolerance for such perversions as a foreign, imperialistic, 7th or so century, barbaric, misogynistic, and cruel religion, believe me, ‘nasty weather’ and being ‘quite prepared to die’ [I’d linked Creedence Clearwater’s ‘Bad Moon Rising’] are not so far fetched. If those who run the institutions of this country can’t figure that out, ‘Houston, we have a problem’.

So, what does Jim Spyropoulos, superintendent of inclusive (give me a break) schools have to say about this idiocy? Here it is:

“In a school where there is such a high concentration of Muslim students, this was the best solution that avoided compromising instructional time.” The Globe article also states that: “The TDSB introduced a religious accommodation policy . . . [that] includes limitations that state the board won’t compromise on certain issues, such as public safety or health, in making these [religious] accommodations . . . ” What utter cr*p!

For starters: the TDSB is an EDUCATION system. Notice that it’s concerned about not compromising “public safety or health”. Is it concerned about compromising its students’ LEARNING—the reason they’re actually at school? Not on your life.

Instructional time is not being compromised? Surely, Jim Spyropoulos jests. 300 Muslim students are at prayer all at the same time: this will screw up the timetable, EA schedules, flexibility, and instructional time, BIG TIME! What about the huge number of classes these students are missing? Re instructional time, ALL students will be penalized because, believe me, teachers will be told: 1) not to teach any new material at that time, 2) not to expect assignments to be handed in at that time, 3) not to assign any homework at that time, and 4) not to give any tests at that time—and probably much more. So, the non-Muslim students will be given a study period. Multiply this four Fridays/month for the 10 month school year and that’s a heck of a lot of instructional time lost—not only by the Muslim students but by all the other ones as well. For what? To accommodate Muslim prayers on school property, at taxpayer expense. Is Mr. Spyropoulos just ignorant or is he stupid? From what I gather about the TDSB, he’s probably both—and pulling down a salary of close to $150 000.

Then there are the legal issues, which are staggering. Many teachers who’ve commented at the Globe are fully aware of and alarmed by this aspect: I’d be too. The attendance and supervision issues are a nightmare: does the board have a written contract with the imam about protocols for attendance, lockdowns, behaviour, etc.? Even if there is a contract, if something goes wrong, believe me, the board will ultimately be responsible. The TDSB pinheads must know this.

Teachers should have NO responsibilities of any kind concerning this abomination. But, what if the principal assigns a teacher to some responsibility? What protection does the teacher have? Do all Muslims have to attend or do they need to bring a note from home to include/exclude them? Who attends/who doesn’t? What if some kids skip? Who referees all of this? What about the TDSB’s ever so politically correct “Equity Policy”? Segregated seating, requiring Islamic dress for the girls, and favouring one religion over all others definitely transgress the policy.

Off the top of my head, these are just a few of the problems I can think of re this ludicrous situation. (The TDSB lawyers are obviously left-wing incompetents and idiots—no surprise there!) This political correctness run amok shows that the TDSB is not only monumentally hypocritical, but reckless and astonishingly stupid as well.

Kyrie eleison.

I think the misunderstanding here is that faithful Muslims are required to pray five times a day (which would fall during school hours). Christians don't have any requirement like this. On top of that, any days special to Christians are either federal holidays (Easter, Christmas), or on the weekend (Sunday).

Public schools in Canada don't force Christians (or other faiths) to give up their religious beliefs to attend, and this shouldn't be any different for Muslims.

I'm a firm believer that the way to placate the ism-addicts is to offer 'pluralism' and say goodbye to enforced homogeneous anti-white, anti-christian, anti-male, anti-heterosexual "diversity".

WRT education, this would manifest naturally as school vouchers. Of course, expect the teachers unions to go ballistic at the whiff of school vouchers.

As to the question of why Christian influence is exempt .. because it's part of our heritage. Islam is not.

Nobody serious wants a Christian theocracy, but to ignore Canada's Christian roots, or to equate them to other religions not relevant to our history is lying to students. The left has gone berserk for the last 40 years trying to win the cold war by destroying western civilization, including Christian heritage, and nobody has told them it's been over for 20 years. Well, they're now learning the hard way.

ET redux: it costs money because I say it does.

No it does not. There is no transfer of money. These are just students using a cafeteria for prayer. But they're Muslims so time to freak out. Seems the charges of Islamophobia are justified.

The school allows the Muslim students to leave the grounds to go to a Mosque, but the kids don't show up well guess what leftards once they leave the school property they become the responsibility of the parents and if the parents can't show up to ensure those kids go to the Mosque ask me if I care.

Amos, there is no misunderstanding here. (Maybe you're just pulling our legs. If not, I'm afraid your language processing and reasoning skills are seriously deficient.)

No one forced Muslims to emigrate to this country. They would have been aware that Canadian public education systems are not set up to accommodate their—or any other—religion. Yet they came here.

The problem, Amos, is that Muslims want to retain their religious practices at the expense of the rest of us. Muslims (and their addlebrained, statist allies) plan to make us accommodate them. But, Amos, Muslims have no intention of accommodating any of us.

There are a number of reasonable solutions to this problem, which would accommodate the rights of everyone involved: Muslims may stay in their own, Sharia law countries, which will happily accommodate their religious desires. Muslims may come here and home school their children. Muslims may come here and pay to send their children to parochial schools. Muslims may come here and adhere to the rules that everyone else does in our public schools.

It should not be Muslims’ choice to seriously disrupt the lives of non-Muslim Canadians, at taxpayer expense, in order to carry out their religious observances. The rest of us don’t have the option to practise our religions during school hours, on school property (while seriously disrupting the learning of ALL the students involved).

Amos, what is it that makes you think Muslims should have this special privilege?

libertariansaresmarter. Really?

From the evidence here, libertarians are about as smart and leaden as a bag of bricks.

ET, right on. The use of any school facility has many associated costs, which are paid by the taxpayer.

Interesting post on the NP site. By the way Valley Park Middle School has 1,400 students of which 400 attend the mosque.

"I had attended, studied, lived in Muslim run campus/country before. The Muslim students/instructors/administrators neither pray during school hours nor do they ask for any special consideration to their majority religion, nor a prayer room nor special washing facilities for their faith.

Muslim parents, officials, politicians, administrators, as well as instructors know that school hours were for studying, prayers were set aside when they went home after school and on their off days.

It's only here in America and Europe when some Islamists especially Imams and Mullahs who are pushing the envelope knowing that the people are ignorant on their religion and are so easy to string along because of political correctness."