So while we wait for the commentariat to sort out their adjectives, and review what I’ve heard is the shooter’s 1500 page “manifesto,” I’ve been struck by other interesting aspects of the case of the man I like to think of as “the Bill Ayers of Norway”...
Good to know he's facing hard time.
Related! Democrat congressman and climate change "hawk" David Wu (more here) accused of sexually assaulting teen. (See how easy that was?)
Also, on the religious relativism watch - anyone got tape of fundamentalist Christians taking to the streets to celebrate? Pass it along, please.
"Can a prison possibly justify treating its inmates with saunas, sunbeds and deck chairs if that prison has the lowest reoffending rate in Europe?” the Daily Mail asked, noting that Norway’s penal system “runs contrary to all our instincts — but achieves everything we could wish for.”
Ah,that's our problem in North America,no saunas!
Saunas burn the evil out of an inmate and he emerges cleansed,likely to become a missionary,or something.
It's pretty much word for word the Ted Kaczynski manifesto cut and pasted with the word 'leftist' apparently replaced by 'marxist.'
Sandbye acknowledged that the devastating mass murder Friday could prompt a debate about whether some people should always remain behind bars.
From what I've seen on the internet, Norge prisons don't have bars.
And a long time does not equal hard time, especially in Norway.
Don't forget Bernardine Dorn Kate. She's still up to nogoodnickness.
Maybe the rich need to be taxed so much that their spoiled offspring don't have money or lives to waste on pretending they are Knights Templar.
I find it interesting though that a generation of the future leaders (face it they are Party kids and being groomed/bred for Party leadership) of a Socialist Party are no longer available to carry on the "tradition".
It's what this does to the survivors that will be the future leaders that will be most interesting to not want to witness. They can choose wisely or poorly how they use this event when it's their turn. The adults bear the greatest responsibility to make sure they recover in a well-adjusted manner.
They can be feral wild pigs or Wilbur. It's up to them.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1384308/Norways-controversial-cushy-prison-experiment--catch-UK.html
If he does more than 21 years then the terrorists have won.
2kevin - page numbers please. I've also looked at Kaczynski's manifesto and it was totally different. OK, my impression was totally different and I remember it as being more of a rant and less organized. Should dig it up as it's somewhere in my Terabytes of material.
So far I've seen 3 separate versions of Breivik's "manifesto" but they all appear to be from the same source The most common file on the internet is the pdf version although the original was distributed as a docx file. I managed to download that file from stormfront.org where Breivik seems to have gotten quite a negative response for "shooting white people". I've also got a text comparison program somewhere which should determine if these are the same files but it's a nice day outside and I've already spent far too much time on this project.
To make things easy, it would be best if people posted page numbers from the pdf file.
Breivik exemplifies Norse culture from the era before Christian missionaries arrived. I don't see how anyone calls him a Christian.
On CTV news this evening, Helge Luras, an advisor with the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs, said that multiculturalism was rarely discussed in Norway and that immigration policies were made by politicians without consulting "the people." I was surprised to hear this -- not because it's not true but because it was said by a Norwegian on Canadian television. Luras also said that "a significant number of Norwegians would find some sympathy" with "part of" Breivik's message/Manifesto.
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110724/norway-shooting-investigation-110724/
I suspect there might be more latitude for this discussion now, a discussion that should never have been deep-sixed in the first place.
In too many countries, those who make decisions to bring in massive numbers of immigrants don't have to live with the consequences. They live in neighbourhoods far from the madding crowd or in gated communities from which "the idea of multiculturalism" is lovely and egalitarian. How would they know? They often seem both unaware of and uninterested in knowing how massive influxes of immigrants over a relatively short period of time -- especially if they have no intention of assimilating into their host culture -- can negatively impact the day-to-day lives of ordinary citizens.
These attacks by Anders Behring Breivik, as a way of getting the Norwegian people to wake up, however, are unconscionable; no agenda, regardless of how relevant and/or silenced, can justify this carnage of human life. My heart goes out to the loved ones of those who lost their lives on Friday.
Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord.
And may light perpetual shine upon them.
I am sure Mark Steyn somehow feels bad this weekend.
loki - may I ask - is there the slightest evidence of a Christian connection of any kind? (Or any sort of religious connection?)
All white Europeans are "Christians".
So he was a Christian shooting other Christians for not being Christian enough, that's not anything new.
Just more recent.
WalterF @ 8:26
my above comment was meant to answer yours, I didn't consider a thesis could be wrote before i could finger poke type my little comment.
Please - someone who is taking the time to read through this huge document. I know he will be labelled "Christian" - that's a given - but I want to know if there if there is any evidence of any kind relating to religion. I do think it's very important.
kristians in here do NOT do themslves any favours by trying to denigh that Anders is a kristians, he doesn't represent your kristian "values", but to those of us outside your faith he represents much of what we see as kristian!!!
and to further, I'd bet this lad, like Ted Kaczynski, has about a 140 (sbs) IQ
Where did he go to Church, or what denomination?
Where are his parents with friends statements?
Some people here actually think Anglicans & the United Church are Christian, let alone heretical sects like Mormons plus Johovah Witnesses. Who are more Pagan than Christian. Christian Science is neither Christian nor science.
Anyone can call themselves anything.
The test is the fruits in their life with knowing the scriptures with in context.
Mamba, at the moment there's evidence that his Facebook page was doctored to read Cristian Conservative shortly after he was announced as the suspect.
That is an interesting thing.
GYM - (as an agnostic) I ask what your evidence is.
From what I understand so far, because people like loki are reading the documents, he's a nationalist, anti-UN, anti-immigration... well ask Davenport.
I'll say that he seems to be a right-winger. I don't do that casually, because of the common and easily debunked identification of the Nazis with the right wing. (I don't say "conservative".) But is there a religious connection? I neeeds to know.
Black Mamba - I can't see where the "Christian" connection comes from. Apparently Anders was a member of a church, (can't remember which Christian sect it was) and he was fed up with the marxist leanings of the priests and gave up going to church. I'm taking a break from this document for a while although I suspect that eventually I'll read the whole thing.
He certainly doesn't like islam and an account of the various genocides carried out by the Ottoman empire is fascinating. Obviously I'll be going to original historical sources but, if Anders is correct, the Ottoman empire killed about as many people as Adolf did in a far less humane manner. Curious how it's never mentioned anymore and, again have to check the original sources, but Eurabian bureaucrats were accused of deliberately suppressing publicity about Ottoman excesses. These occurred in the period of 1915 to the 1920's and the expulsion of Greeks from Turkey is something I never knew about. Turkey to this day refuses to acknowledge that any of these events happened.
My feeling from yesterdays reading is that Anders was beginning to find his inner Viking. Maybe I missed the Christian references but there were a lot of military references, lots on various enemies of the European people but very little religion.
loki - thank you. May I quote you on a stupid lefty blog, where the "Christian fundamentalist" narrative is already being established? I'd cite you as a doctor and scientist of libertarian convictions who is reading this document (it's like Bammy's HC bill, nobody's actually read it. Maybe if we pass it first...) whom I respect.
quebecois pedariste: "I am sure Mark Steyn somehow feels bad this weekend."
Yeah and someone at the CBC is probably writing a story suggesting that Mark Steyn is the second shooter.
@ The Phantom, this is not surprising, as to a socialist doctoring the truth to whatever suits their agenda is just fine. It will be interesting to see if this doctoring is pursued or swept under the carpet.
batb, agreed.
He said today he was an agnostic. This man is a rare kind of crazy. Intelligent, articulate and correct in many of his objections to conditions in Europe. He targeted the heart of leftist governance and the future leaders of his perceived enemy. It is fortunate that Islam has no access to such people. I heard some one call him the John Brown of the coming storm.
I, for one, don't believe the suspect had much luck recruiting others to the cause. I further believe that the alleged killer's motive was to encourage other alleged killers to copycat.
So, is another 5 years at the prisons of Norway considered a reward or punishment?
Watching his video, he seems to liken himself to a modern day Crusader.
A Knights Templar sorta guy.
By the way I just watched the CBC for 5 minutes. It's not even pretending to be news, it's just propaganda. How do you guys stand it?
Did Elvis really shoot his screen? My respect for him just went up.
We must try to understand his anger.
Was he driven to violence due to the United States.
Was he driven to violence due to Israel.
Was he was driven to violence due to social conditions.
If only we had listened to his grievances.
And my favorite,
"And I do think that the Western world is getting too rich in relation to the poor world and necessarily will be looked upon as being arrogant and self-satisfied, greedy and with no limits. The 11th of September is an occasion for me to realize it even more."
Our former Prime Minister
We must try to understand his anger.
Was he driven to violence due to the United States.
Was he driven to violence due to Israel.
Was he was driven to violence due to social conditions.
If only we had listened to his grievances.
And my favorite,
"And I do think that the Western world is getting too rich in relation to the poor world and necessarily will be looked upon as being arrogant and self-satisfied, greedy and with no limits. The 11th of September is an occasion for me to realize it even more."
Our own former Prime Minister
Jean Chretien
GYM isn't it funny you can spell Ted Kaczynski but not "Christian"?
The bludgeoning of conservatives by Radical Leftists on this issue has gotten really tiresome & despicable in no time flat. The modus operandi of such schmucks is always the same:
0. Forget about any compassion for those who died or their families.
1. Without any facts in hand, blame it on a Far Right nut.
2. Extend the blame to everyone of a conservative viewpoint.
3. If the identity of the perpetrator turns out not to be as described in #1 then quickly sweep everything under the rug and pretend that the false accusations ever happened.
In this case it does appear that it was indeed a Far Right nutter. He should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I would have no problem with him receiving the death penalty within 30 days.
But are we now to infer that:
a. All Christians are homicidal maniacs?
b. Uncontrolled immigration policies are perfectly fine?
c. Multi-cultist views, which hold oppression of women in some societies just as legitimate as traditional Canadian values, are peachy keen?
d. Uncontrolled public-sector spending, racking up endless amounts of debt are okay with everyone?
e. Systemic incompetence throughout the public sector and the near impossibility of firing any public sector worker should be ignored?
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
Black Mamba, go ahead and quote me although I don't think that you'll change any lefty minds. FWIW, I just found my copy of Kaczynski's Unabomber Manifesto and I admit I was originally turned off by his first paragraph and skimmed the rest. The similarities are that Kaczynski and Breivik are both strong individualists who don't need much reassurance from the herd. Leftists, in Kaczynski's way of thinking are herd animals (my interpretation of his writings)and generally rather miserable people. This would probably be view of a lot of individualist types and so it wouldn't surprise me that there would be similarities between Kaczynski's writings and Breivik's. Kaczynski's was an anorectic manifesto at a mere 34,668 words whereas Breivik's weighs in at 795,141 (using Open Office Writer word count function).
BL@KBIRD, you're right in that we've been fortunate that the majority of islamofascists have been ignorant amateurs with the exception of OBL. OBL, however, had the advantage of his families money to fund the WTC attacks whereas it appears that Breivik carried out this mission entirely on his own.
We're in for some interesting times. I'm sure that the socialists will attempt to tie Libertarians and Conservatives together with Breivik because there are so many shared views. We've been warning of the potential problems that may arise from socialist policies, insane multicultural policies, junk science in government and the financial unsustainability of a depraved electorate electing politicians that promise them everything. I have nothing to apologize for and plan to be as aggressive in my opposition to statism as before. The best response if one has similarities to Breivik's views pointed out to them is to reply with details of the social welfare system in 1930's Germany which was one of the most advanced in the world. Also the model for Sweden's system. Moonbats don't like being reminded that Adolf was a vegetarian, militant anti-smoker and father of medicare (and no credit given to him by Tommy Douglas when he ripped off the idea).
Robert
Your 0 is true enough but the tactic (outlined by your points 1 & 2) of taking a specific event and then ascribing blame to a wider group happens on this site all the time. All the time. You can't see that? Get a grip.
"Moonbats don't like being reminded that Adolf was a vegetarian, militant anti-smoker and father of medicare (and no credit given to him by Tommy Douglas when he ripped off the idea)."
Right on Loki. Also father of gun control, the US 1968 Gun Control Act was a word-for-word English translation of the original Nazi statute.
Oh yeah it was Lefties. Look it up.
gray said: "...taking a specific event and then ascribing blame to a wider group happens on this site all the time."
Yeah, you and Davenport are two of the prime instigators too. Maybe you should quit while you're ahead?
"kristians in here do NOT do themslves any favours by trying to denigh that Anders is a kristians, he doesn't represent your kristian "values", but to those of us outside your faith he represents much of what we see as kristian!!!"
Posted by: GYM | July 24, 2011 9:04 PM
Your post indicates the following, GYM:
1. You clearly have a hate on for Christians - that's your baggage to carry, and I could care less about that
2. You know very little about "kristian values", "kristianity" or even the "Ten Kommandments", and the incoherent rant above underscores this beautifully. Kind of like a high school dropout venturing an "informed" opinion on, say, particle physics or mechanics of deformable solids. It helps if you actually have a bit of knowledge about the subject you're blowing about. You look a bit less deranged, that way.
3. Your lecturing Christians on SDA about whether or not this psycho is a "kristian" is rather mind-numbing, considering #2 above. The concept that there could be such individuals as "baptized kristians" and "practicing kristians" is likely beyond your grasp, but google it to help increase your remedial comprehension of the issue.
I postulate (2) possibilities here:
(i) Your anti-Christian bigotry has really topped you off, today, and maybe you need a break from the web. Go on, take a deep breath, and rock yourself calm in the corner, singing "Evil" and tear up your photo of the Pope. Hey, it worked for Sinead O'Connor, right?
(ii) Your spelling, grammar and punctuation indicate you are drunk. Put away the bottle and see (i) above.
mhb23re
From Jonathon Kay (National Post):
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/07/24/jonathan-kay-on-breiviks-norwegian-massacre-and-the-turner-diaries-how-a-2011-crime-was-plucked-straight-from-a-1978-novel/
Robert W. (Vancouver): "0. Forget about any compassion for those who died or their families.
1. Without any facts in hand, blame it on a Far Right nut.
2. Extend the blame to everyone of a conservative viewpoint.
3. If the identity of the perpetrator turns out not to be as described in #1 then quickly sweep everything under the rug and pretend that the false accusations ever happened."
Oh please. Let's go back to this original SDA post, shall we?: smalldeadanimals.com/archives/017345.html
1. How far down the comments do you have to go before you find a comment simply expressing sympathy and compassion for the Norwegian victims and their families? Hint: quite a while. Instead, we find comments essentially chastising Norwegians themselves (e.g., "looks like the Norwegians thought they'd be safe if they just appeased their angry immigrants. Where did I read those wise words . . . "Pleasing your enemies does not turn them into friends". Maybe now they'll wake up and realize who their real enemies are"). Classy stuff.
2. Speaking of pointing fingers without any evidence, it took all of 2 comments before someone came out and said straight-out, "I'm sure it was muslims. If I am wrong, I will eat crow and proclaim -- *gasp* -- the CBC is a credible and trustworthy news organization." The third comment thought it was "probably another left wing looney shooter." Heck, even EBD's comment, "So far, no Amish groups have claimed responsibility", in the original post itself, is a thinly veiled sarcastic reference to Islamic terrorists.
3. Nine comments in, and we get the first of many inevitable extensions of blame to all Muslims: "wonder how many have to be murdered before the Euros wake up and realize massive immigration of muslims is just national suicide."
4. And finally, as for sweeping it all under the rug, how many mea culpas for wrongly blaming this on Muslims did you read amongst the almost 500 comments that have been posted on SDA about this incident? I count zero, give or take one or two.
More and more evidence is indicating Breivic is not Christian. Not only in actions but core beliefs. I suspect if he has any belief beyond his own superiority it might be something that reveres the ancient Norse gods. However the most likely case is that he is an atheist. Atheism is the biggest belief in Europe so Breivic sharing that belief is not at all surprising. Back in the days I was going to school one of my classmates expressed his desire to be a missionary to England. I initially laughed until I read the statistics. The Christian Church needs to send more missionaries to Europe than to Africa!
I agree with Kate: since the warmists share the same bête noires as David Wu, they must share the blame for his actions.
It's all very concerning. Does this mark the weekend when climate change hawks moved from threatening teenagers -- "no pressure" -- to sexually assaulting them?
Funny, Wendy G, I thought that, too.
I am disgusted that Breivik could spend twenty-one years on holiday for murdering over ninety people.
G-d- socialism!
Perhaps the naysayers might like to point out how normal Christians live peacefully and NOT shoot people unlike someone who is allegedly Christian did only a couple of days ago.
Davenport wrote:
Are you aware, davenport, that not a single one of your eight comments on the two threads on the subject matter expressed any sympathy and compassion for the Norwegian victims and their families?
Perhaps you were just too busy falsely blaming the massacre on fjordman, and calling people bigots, to express even the tiniest passing mote of sympathy and compassion for the Norwegian victims and their families.
I find it interesting, and in a rather pointed way, that the first time you mention sympathy and compassion for the Norwegian victims and their families is in a comment upbraiding and lecturing SDA commenters for not expressing sympathy and compassion for the Norwegian victims and their families.
What a sadly memorable comment you just typed out there. I'm actually a little bit embarrassed for you, and I don't embarrass easily.
Is there a stronger word than "smug" that means roughly the same thing?
"I wonder, is there a stronger word than "smug" that means roughly the same thing?"
Hypocrite comes immediately to mind......
Bravo EBD!
An article detailing Breivik's upbringing (insert own commentary here):
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/norway-suspect-says-nato-bombing-serbia-tipped-scales-231453657.html
If Muslims angered him, why didn't he attack them? Or did fellow Norwegians bother him more?
Just asking.
If Muslims angered him, why didn't he attack them? Or did fellow Norwegians bother him more?
~Osumashi Kinyobe
Norwegian multicult socialists bothered him more.
Breivik saw them as traitor enablers who brought the Muslims to Norway.
http://tinyurl.com/425py9b
There's something no one seems to have picked up on. This nut chose the least dangerous target, rather than going after the object of his hatred. Had he gone after a group of muslims, no doubt they would have defended themselves. As is typical of most cowardly bullies, he chose his victims carefully. Who would be easier to attack, than a group of unarmed, left-leaning, tree-hugging youngsters? Why didn't he walk into a big mosque, and open fire? Because they'd have reacted correctly, and killed him.
What’s up with all the Christian defensiveness with this A hiole??
Let it go.
It’s like he was also right handed – do all right handed people need to jump on self conscious defence of “right handedness”?
Stick to what he said in his manifesto, aself describing himself as a white nationalist. Whatever, that in itself is no crime, it’s not like he was openly advocating a “white history month” or anything. He snapped because he believed he was losing his country to foreign invaders, end of story. It’s an old story beginning with the first civilizations. He reacted no differently than a million other people before him, and most certainly before the dawn of Liberal Progressive rule that disallowed white people to feel bad about losing their cultures and homelands.
It’s not religious, so again let it go as far as religion, it’s about Nationalism and White European Culture, I’m sorry.
EBD: "Perhaps you were just too busy falsely blaming the massacre on fjordman, and calling people bigots, to express even the tiniest passing mote of sympathy and compassion for the Norwegian victims and their families."
Fjordman? Never blamed him. In fact, quite the opposite. I believe I noted that it was an unconfirmed online rumor and that it was too early to say whether he's the same guy as Breivik.
Bigot? Merriam-Webster defines that as "a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance". Your original (condolence-free) post implied -- snidely -- that this was the work of Islamic terrorists. Examples of the explicit condemnation of Muslims (with no distinction between radical or otherwise) are scattered throughout the subsequent 180+ comments, starting with #2, even after contrary evidence started coming in. Some were still insisting on "a Muslim connection" THE NEXT DAY, in the face of ample evidence pointing to domestic far-right extremism.
So bigotry? I just call it as I see it.
As for passing notes of sympathy, let's not forget that SDA is YOUR online community, not mine. YOU come on here to connect with like-minded peers; I come on here to call people on their casual bigotry. As the author of that original post, YOU set the tone of the ensuing comments, not me. The resulting paucity of sympathy from SDA loyalists stems from YOUR post, not mine.
Oh, and yes, I've passed on my sympathies through other, friendlier online venues -- i.e., ones that never once thought to use this massacre to chastise Norway over its left-leaning politics and culture -- as well as through personal channels (I have Norwegian friends living in Stockholm). I don't expect you to believe me; I don't really care. But I can say that I'm perfectly comfortable with everything I've written on SDA about this incident. I hope you can say the same.
Black Mamba and others, re Breivik's possible Christian status: Look at the last three photos of his Manifesto: The first one shows him decked out in his Masonic regalia (which I always find risible and extremely distasteful); the second one shows him in his army uniform -- he did compulsory service; the third shows him fully decked out in combat gear with a honking, huge gun. I don't know what kind of gun it is, but it looks like serious business.
Although there's no sign on his forehead announcing, "I am/am not a Christian," his priorities, as demonstrated in these pix, would indicate that Christianity -- that is, following Jesus and His teachings, primary among which is "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" -- was not at the top of his To Do List.
What I find more instructive in this man's trajectory to mass murderer, is that he grew up in a single-mom, fatherless home.
His parents separated when he was very young, there was a custody battle, his father remarried, and then had nothing to do with his son from the time Breivik was 16 because, apparently, Anders became unruly. While he was growing up, his father lived in London and Paris, while Behring Breivik and his mother lived in Norway.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8657928/Norway-Killer-Father-horrified-by-Anders-Behring-Breivik-killing-spree.html
Aren't the vast majority of prison inmates accused of violent crimes fatherless? Why are one-parent, usually single-mom, families not noted as markers for deviance whereas Christianity, in this case, is? I know the answer already: We don't want to traumatize or offend single mothers or errant fathers -- but, what the heck. Anders Behring Breivik's fatherlessness probably had a profound effect on his psyche and may have contributed greatly to his pent-up anger.
ted: "My point is there are a lot of far right Christians in Europe (and probably elsewhere) who quietly think those socialists got what they deserved."
So, ted's become part of the thought police.
As far as condolences go to the Norwegian people, I tried all day yesterday to send condolences to the Norwegian consulate in my city. First attempt (repeated many times), my server indicated that there was trouble sending it and to try again. 'Didn't work. 'Second attempt worked, but I got a failure to deliver notice a few seconds later.
My heart and prayers go out to the Norwegian people and I pray for them all the time. I guess my Christian witness, however, isn't good enough as ted, Davenport, GYM, et al. think Christians are part of the problem.