A Price to Earnings Ratio for College Degrees

I have a nephew with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering from a very respected university, a decade's solid experience. He and other engineers just got laid off from a major (household name) corporation that's moving the bulk of it's production to Mexico and China.

Why do you hate young people so much? Especially those that choose to pursue post-secondary education?

Why do you assume that just because I go to university I'm a left-wing nut?

I voted conservative in the last election, stop painting us all with the same brush.

wat......why do you assume he paints you with the same brush??? May I suggest you go back and reread his article,this time trying a little comprehension with it.Then come back and tell us what he was talking about.

Yes, all you people with no education, who haven't cracked a book since you dropped out of high school, can now wallow in your ignorance again!!! Yippie!

watt

"I voted conservative in the last election,"

and this proves you ain't a lefty wing nut???

thanks for dropping in and proving Cappy's point

We get it. Kate is a Mensa who never went to college. Shame, that is. Now, will the University of Saskabush give her an honorary doctorate, like the friggin' Scarecrow in Oz, so she and the winged monkeys will stop bashing the kids who get off their ass and go to college?

Lloyd Fister

Are you being intentionally obtuse or is reading comprehension not your thing either?

The post makes a slight bit of sense if college education was all about making more money. But it's not. You learn neat things like how to think logically and craft an argument, how to do research, about things like history and the important thinking that underlies our civilization. Folks like Capt. D'uh try to justify their own lack of book larnin' by trying to reduce the value of an education to dollars and cents, rather than factoring in the value of not going through life stoopid and ignerint, and the satisfaction that comes from having a job where you use your brains instead of sniffing paint fumes all day.

As I've said elsewhere inflation hits everywhere. Far from expressing a hatred for the younger generation, the Captain via Kate is trying to protect the young ones from some nasty predators aka "big education" or more precisely "big, useless, not particularly rigorous or even reality-grounded education". In short there's a big group of pseudo-academic charlatans more than willing to take taxpayers' parents' and students' money in exchange for a pile of snake oil mumbo jumbo masquerading under the rubric of "education". Warning youngsters of that reality is hardly hatred. It's cold-water-in-the-face realism.

Lloyd, your argument makes a slight bit of sense if a college education has nothing to do with being an investment in your future. But it does.

Yea, I bet Dr. D is a real doctor and daryl has had an interesting and challenging career, and lots of books in his house.
I have known many people with post-secondary educations and I have yet to meet someone who regretted going to university. The only people who crap on post-secondary education are those people who were too lazy to get one, had a boring career and hate anyone who tries to get ahead. I went half my work life without a degree, the other half with an arts degree, and I can assure you that an awful lot of doors that were previously closed suddenly were opened. And that doesn't factor in the great ideas and fine books -- and the life-long friends and connections -- that were part of the university experience.

This blog is mandatory reading for Liberals who wish to get an education. :)

Furthermore, now the Mr. Layton has confidently ridden into Quebec on his Majestic Steed, the question needs to be asked: "Who will finally help Jack off his horse?".

Lloyd
"I went half my work life without a degree, the other half with an arts degree, and I can assure you that an awful lot of doors that were previously closed suddenly were opened. And that doesn't factor in the great ideas and fine books -- and the life-long friends and connections -- that were part of the university experience."

By any chance, did you fail your statistics and philosophy of logic courses?

Anecdotes isn't a great way to convince us engineers and science types of the righteousness of your position especially since it seems to be completely missing the actual point of the post.

The bigger issue that should be noted is that various levels of Government highly subsidize these useless degrees and take most of the financial hit when things go south on the student loans.

Perhaps we need a lien system on these degrees where you get an * on your credentials until you pay them off.

If Government did not subsidize these degrees they would never have taken them in the first place. They would have gone into the trades and be making a decent living now.

When the Government subsidizes all post secondary education regardless of merit this creates a distortion in the education system where they basically let anyone in to any degree because it's a guaranteed source of revenue and there is no market feedback to keep costs down.

The result is a vast majority of these people not working in their chosen field and the costs keep going up and up.

LLyod, your missing the point. If you want to waste your time and your money on an art history degree all the power to you, just don't waste my time and money.

I have a BSc and I feel it was a good investment in that my earning power doubled (or more) upon completion. I find it hard to believe that any arts degree could do that.

Hell I have a sister-in-law who after getting a 4 year Ba in English ended up doing a 2 year 'diploma' in technical writing just so she could get a job with her fancy BA.

Dan Tappin:

Its anothere classic case of Gov't intervention in the free marketplace...
only in this case subsidised post secondary education.
Mostly speaking; the Trades are a better return on one's education investment...more so for the entrepreneurially inclined.

A neighbour's kid had a line on his facebook site that I thought was revealing.

It went:

"The A students end up working for the C students while the B students end up working for the government.

Interpret it as you will.

Oh and as an afterthought to Lloyd Fister...I'm a retired tradesman and I read roughly a hundred books a year,and have done so most of my life.

"Anecdotes isn't a great way to convince us engineers and science types..."

Where to start?

Lloyd Fister

By learning to read for content not with contempt?

Yup. Real bunch of Einsteins and bridge-builders here. Beneath my contempt.

Hey Lloyd, here's a little story for ya.
My daughter volunteers at the sexual crisis center (shes second year nursing) at a University here in Ontario I asked her generally what she seen most working there she replied, girls asking for pregnancy test kits. Yup they got of their ass and went to University all right. I wonder what their work ethic is like or do they leave as clueless as they arrived?

Lloyd Fister

I'll settle for my reading comprehension and your contempt every time.

Try reading the Captain's piece three or four more times (presuming you've bothered to read it at all) and then come back if anything occurs to you.

Depends upon the degree. At various times, all offsprings were keen to be actors. My response was 'and how do you plan to feed yourself'.

Fast forward some years. No actors (though amateur theatrics are probably in the future). Three professionals. We are seriously proud. To be honest, we would be equally proud had said offspring found their feet at community college, tech school, or wherever their talents led them.

Have friends whose offspring - born with serious challenges - still requires support to live 'indepently' but holds down a job at a college food court cleaning tables. Word has it said offspring is not hesitant in reminding students to clean up their tables (You go!!). I'm sure that friends are just as proud of said offspring as we are of ours. That's how it should be.

Yup. That's another thing. People with a university education get more and better sex. While you were learning welding and trying to get something from that fat chick while you were parked at the end of the 7th Concession , the smart, cute kids were thumping their tushies off. And now your daughter is probably right in there. Just thought you'd like to know.

You learn neat things like how to think logically and craft an argument, how to do research, about things like history and the important thinking that underlies our civilization.
Lloyd Fister.

What a joke, I've debated with your "Arts" types, crafting a logical argument is quite beyond their little mush pile of a lefty brain.

It's far harder to work for a living, supporting a family than sitting on yer duff in school, subsidized by real working people.

Oh, and here I am in my computer room that has several bookcases with BOOKS in them, sheeitte!!! with nary a picture in any of 'em.

Fister, all you've done is show us more evidence that arts students are squishy little sods who are both stupid, and ignorant....and you paid for the privilege of becoming (more) stupid, and ignorant, buhahahahahahahah...ha

Oh, and you're welcome for the student loan, jagoff....you have paid it back...right?:)

Just like money, when you flood the markets with it, it loses value.

Today the average college kid who is nearly everyone, pays quadruple the costs than a couple of decades ago for a rubber stamp on a degree in worthlessness. Forget the useless self-indulgent arts majors, even the technical graduates compete in an oversaturated market. Competing with millions upon millions of Chinese & Indian graduates nonetheless – ain’t globalization wonderful?

Want to be different and succeed in the future? Get a skilled trade in something tangible and use that excess intelligence along with your debit free earnings to grow a business.

Lloyd, a degree is an investment in your future - you seem to agree given that you got one and now say it did things for you that were previously unavailable. Good job. The point of this whole debate is that if your degree never ever has a hope of getting back what you invested to get it, its a poor investment. If all these doors that are open for you now don't return you any money, the money you spent on your degree is now being spent for your happiness in doing something you love. Again, good job. If that works for you, more power to you. The point of all this is that young people are spending 100s of thousands of dollars on degrees that don't get them any different of a job than someone without a degree. Now both the happiness and money quotients are out, but the debt remains. Get it now? Its really not that hard.

For any of us to compare our situations with the validity of having a degree is most likely meaningless. I am old and got my degree years ago and it helped me immensely. I believe it remains that way even now in my field, but those facts don't mean that every degree in every field is worth it with tuitions having gone through the roof since our days. Stop your trite trolling and try to give some facts to say why you think the article is bogus.

Another wrinkle I'd like to throw out there is the Canadian vs US college systems and prices. I got my degree in Canada. I've been living in the US for years now and have experience in both paying tuition and hiring people with degrees from all sorts of colleges down here. I'm not sure if its a time or country difference, but things are MUCH different. I agree with the premise that most degrees are worthless because of these experiences.

Has anyone ever really tested out idea that university actually teaches you to "think logically and craft an argument, how to do research, about things like history and the important thinking that underlies our civilization" better than other career training? I'm not being flippant, I really wonder how one proves this true or that these traits are exclusively in the domain of liberal arts graduates.

For instance, thinking logically is an essential part of applied science (engineers, computer tech, science tech) and trades - it is difficult to successfully complete preventative maintenance and repair of complex systems without those skills. Research goes hand-in-hand with troubleshooting and good decision making under pressure. Effective communication with your work team and other crews is important both for safety and efficiency. I guess that leaves "history and the important thinking that underlies our civilization". Personally I find the idea that history and deep thinking are more valuable than the production of goods and services to be pretentious and superficial.

Lloyd, you wrote: " You learn neat things like how to think logically and craft an argument, how to do research, about things like history and the important thinking that underlies our civilization."

And: " Folks like Capt. D'uh try to justify their own lack of book larnin' by trying to reduce the value of an education to dollars and cents, rather than factoring in the value of not going through life stoopid and ignerint, and the satisfaction that comes from having a job where you use your brains instead of sniffing paint fumes all day."

And: "I have known many people with post-secondary educations and I have yet to meet someone who regretted going to university. The only people who crap on post-secondary education are those people who were too lazy to get one, had a boring career and hate anyone who tries to get ahead"

Lloyd- the problem with your comments in the above three sections is that they show no evidence of logic, of a well-crafted argument and even, no evidence of learning.

Your comments reveal many logical fallacies, including not merely the trivia of ad hominem but in addition, in section 2, the fallacy of 'reduction', of 'false analogies', and a false 'either-or' argument.

Your section 3 betrays the fallacies of 'generalization', false assumptions, false premises.

Oh, and in your first section, 'history' is not a 'thing' because it is not an object; it's an area of knowledge.

Now, we know that you enjoyed your university experience but your comments show little evidence of it having given you the capacity for logical and factual argumentation.

No pedanticism here, please! That is something, up with which we will not put. :-)

Should taxpayer funds be loaned out to students for university education?

Didn't banks do this in the past?

"You learn neat things like how to think logically and craft an argument, how to do research, about things like history and the important thinking that underlies our civilization." -- Lloyd Fister

At university? By taking classes in the Liberal Arts? Rubbish. I learned these things in high school. University is not required for this. I did take liberal arts courses at university, but research skills, logic, and independent thinking were not taught and were not required to succeed in these classes.

In contrast, courses in the hard sciences (Physics, Math, Biochemistry) require hard work, research skills and logical thinking, but at the undergraduate level they build on what (should have been) taught in high school.

What criteria do students need to satisfy to get a student loan?

Are gov't loans handed out for the "hobby" degrees? This can not be an economical investment for the taxpayer? I prefer to invest my own money. I would not invest with the expectation of a strong return in a student persueing a degree in what can only be classified as a hobby in the real world.

I work for the City in this town , where most workers are students. They end up staying . No one hires them. Even in Alberta. They don't show up on time at work & are a bitter bunch.
That will spend most of thier earning years paying off loans that mean nothing.

"The government-issued loan program's costs to taxpayers include provisions for interest relief for unemployed graduates and a default rate of more than one dollar in eight. According to a 2008 actuarial report, the program's net
cost to government was $697-million in 2006-07 and rising by 2.3 per cent a year."
September 5, 2010
Ottawa raises cap at eleventh hour to keep student loans flowing
By Adrian Morrow

Apparently the only people who have jobs in this country are engineers and scientists.

Lawyers, businessmen, and teachers apparently don't exist.

y u mad bro?

yumad apparently you didn't read the article or you failed to comprehend what you read.
BTW I read for pleasure, create music for pleasure and entertainment, and make a six figure salary as a tradesman. I also have one of those arts degrees. Not worth the paper it's printed on.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

yumad?: most 'businessmen' don't have BA's in management or business. Businessmen are men running business.

Perhaps you meant bankers, another well respected line of work ranked nearly as low as lawyers, hell why not toss in politicians in there just to even better point out whats wrong with having to many BA's in the world...

And of course when you mean scientists I assume you also include doctors, dentists, pharmacist...

Perhaps you've spent to much of your parents money getting an MBA and are a little bitter to find out the CEO is a P.Eng...

ET, you tired, bitter old pedagogue, I handled myself just fine against you and the rest of the winged monkeys. I made my points on the non-monetary value of a post-secondary education (arts or otherwise). Unlike you, I did not spend my career profiting from the sale of arts education, then turn around and spit into the face of academia, but that's for another time.

"The destructive fixation of the envious English-Canadian mind requires that the highest, happiest most agile flyers be laid low. [It is] a sadistic desire corroded by soul-destroying envy, to intimidate all those who might aspire to anything the slightest exceptional." --Conrad M. Black, MA (History)

An arts/science degree is as the Captain indicates....b.s. I sent my two kids for an undergraduate degree and they both have good jobs but nothing to do with their degrees...after all an Arts degree won't get you squat. Our kids go to university and listen to an old bunch of hippies from the 60's who are now professor talking about the evil of capitalism, religion, conservative governments, etc. My kids use to say Dad they professors are all commies. Now you can understand who votes for the NDP.

It's time we shut down these under graduates degrees and let the professor go and sit along the river and half a joint and contemplate life, like they use to do in the 60's.

There are only some things in life that create wealth and jobs, mining, forestry, fishing and agriculture. Any other jobs created depend on these four as they are the only one creating wealth. E.g of non-wealth jobs, busniness....investment bankers, teachers, govt employees...they need the money from the four to make a living.

I know this is simplistic but to get a job you have to have someone or something that makes money pay....and professors produce nothing...nada.

Three main things that suck the economy and the social fabric of a nation are unions, universities and socialism.....of these socialism is the worst culprit and it gives birth to the other two evils.

lloyd - heh - you still haven't dealt with my pointing out that you cannot make a coherent, logical or factual argument. All you are doing is simple ad hominem. Piffle.

I repeat those three terms: Coherent. Logical. Factual.

Just to assert how wonderful you are, how great your points were...is not an argument but pure dogmatic self-blinkered opinion.

So, are you really showing us that your university education failed to enable you to be: Coherent. Logical. Factual. And instead all you can do is insult people?

That's exactly what we are talking about; the results of an arts/humanities education. You've given us a specific example of its failings.

And now, you've made yet another error: Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Look it up.
Because Conrad Black has an MA degree in history does not mean that his later business and literary success was due to that degree; there is no evidence that he could not have done the same without the degree.

Furthermore, your trying to claim that criticism of you is due to our envy, is yet another fallacious argument: false cause. You've no evidence of your conclusions and furthermore, you can't factually and empirically conclude that 'the English-Canadian mind' is also one that has not itself gone to a university.

Whew - you do indeed make a lot of logical and factual errors, don't you? Is that evidence of the results of your degree...or..is it just you?

I spent my early job career as a computer programmer/analyst back in the late 60, 70s. Back then no one had a university degree, we just took courses specific to what was needed. We had co-op students from Waterloo later with science degrees but as my best friend, who had one, told me you didn't really need the degree as basic logic was the most important facet.

ET, your whithering reply to Fister must have struck home as the ad hominems just exploded. His "think logically" just collapsed.

Doesn't the Captain's blog also underline the government student loan plan that allowed all sorts of people that really had no "business" or need to go to university and the universities responded by just hugely increasing their tuition rates to take this money leaving the student with a useless degree and a large debt? As with the US Housing Loan debacle just part of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

The bitterness in a lot of these posts is practically oozing, bitter much?

Y u so mad?

BTW, aren't you the same people that spit on Iggy for being an elitist? Sure is elitism and holier than thou in here.

Please feel free to use my posts to feel better about your lives. It sounds like you need it.

The envy (and youth hatred) on this board is self-evident.
My argument -- which embittered ex-academic ET, who waxed fat at the academic udder while teaching, um, arts, in an, um, university full of rich brats in the Eastern Townships of Quebec -- is that there is much more of value in a university arts education than just an increased income (although even the so-called Capt's figures fail to convince that a post secondary education does not generate extra earning power). There is the personal value of understanding logical constructs, a stronger ability to communicate, the opportunity to learn research skills, and the life-long connections and friends one makes. There is also a greater exposure, in arts education, to the western canon and to important historic and philosphical ideas. A price can't be put on those. ET, being blinded by hate and envy, refuses to acknowledge those facts.
Let's look at the material of the post. Capt. BS doesn't even break down the value of various post-secondary degrees. In his world, an MD student learning oncology and a sociology grad end up on the same chart. A C- student in ET's discipline of anthropology is compared with someone pulling down an A+ in tax law. An urban planning student learning how to develop a town gets tossed in the same sout with someone skipping their poetry classes. A D student in history who will, at best, end up slinging beer is no different from an A student in history who will go on to write a dozen best-selling books and create hours of TV documentaries. The reality is that some students get a lot from university, including scholarships, which the unlettered Capt. also doesn't factor into his economic hokum. (I paid for two graduate degrees with scholarships, so his guff about tuition has at least one hole in it.) Of course, the captain doesn't factor in the value to a young person of taking a project (in this case, a degree) to its conclusion, which gives them a strong psychological advantage.
You winged monkeys can try to mock my arts education, but I assure you, from the publication of my thesis as a successful book by a commercial publisher to military research work that has actually saved the lives of Canadian soldiers and civilians, it was well worth the time and the effort.

Lloyd - your asserting a conclusion doesn't make that conclusion valid! You are showing that your university education, which you claim provides you with an ability to think and argue logically, is invalid. You don't think and argue logically.

You wrote, in your latest: "There is the personal value of understanding logical constructs, a stronger ability to communicate, the opportunity to learn research skills, and the life-long connections and friends one makes."

But you don't understand logical constructs. I keep pointing out that you fail to present any coherent, logical, factual arguments! I even give you the names of your fallacies! [Oh - and you began this latest post with yet another: ad hominem].

Ranting is not 'better communication'. You haven't shown us any of your research skills, though you have shown your lack of 'logical constructs'. As for friends - that's an illogical and fallacious argument, to suggest that it's only at an arts/humanities university that one makes friends. You can make friends anywhere!

You don't need to go to a university for exposure to our history and philosophical background. The curious mind can, and does, explore these on its own.

Now, yet another logical fallacy. You claim I am 'blinded by hate and envy'. Heh. This is a conclusion. Where are your factual and logical premises to prove it? Or is this yet another of your constant ad hominems?

Your outline of the chart is factually invalid. He doesn't post or consider grades and he DOES break down the different degrees His focus is on the decreased value of arts/humanities degrees. And he does show the difference in starting salaries between the liberal arts and the 'hard sciences'.

And yet again, your naive view of scholarships ignores that someone else's wealth paid for it. Whether these were government taxpayer-funded scholarships or private.

Nor have you provided any evidence that the grade affects the resultant job. You assert that there is a direct causal correlation but you provide no evidence! Again - you fail to provide a valid argument.

The insert you provide of 'successfully completing the degree' and your assertion that such has a psychological benefit is, yet again, another of your unfounded opinions. That's not the point of his argument, which is that the content of the material studied is either relevant or irrelevant. And when it's irrelevant to the real world - this shows up in employment success. ...which also has some psychological effects.

Now, prove that your military research work has 'saved the lives' of Canadian soldiers. So far, your mode of argumentation is conclusions without factual or logical evidence.

And - publishing a book by a 'commercial publisher' (???) is an ambiguous statement.

Now, without the ad hominems - and boy, you sure do use a lot of them...how about trying to present an argument that has some facticity, some evidence of logical argumentation, that is based on actual premises not just conclusions.. and does not consist of you just asserting 'Just So' stories about yourself. Care to try it? Can you?

I used to think you were obtuse. Now it seems you are wilfully bind or just plain dense. I'll leave up my posts, you leave up yours and we'll let people decide. In your world "relevance" of a post-secondary education can only be shown in dollars and cents -- and this from someone who, week in and week out, cashed a cheque for teaching antyhropology in a university (a delicious irony that you avoild like a bear trap). So I guess an arts education has some value, at least to you.
In my world, there's a value on not being ignorant.
As for my thesis, I wanted to show it was something that was of commercial value (published by a major non-academic publisher to make money, i.e., making me a "maker", unlike some anthro prof, who must certainly be listed among the "takers") and bought by people who wanted to read it because what I found had value to them. And my other work, for the military, is something I can't talk about without outing myself. Maybe I'll do that when everyone else here has the courage to post under their own names.

lloyd - again, you fail to deal with facts. You haven't answered my criticisms of your comments and your comments are nothing but: misinformation, no facts, no logic, and filled with ad hominem insults.

You state that I and the thread's author subscribe to a dollars-and-cents result to a degree. You can't show any evidence that I actually accept such a conclusion. Yet, you post it! And you say that your 'education' provided you with the capacity for logical thinking!

Nor do you show how such an economic result is offset by some other positive benefits of such an education. You claim that it does but your posts provide no evidence.

My view is that you don't need an arts/humanities degree in order to be: non-ignorant, factual, logical, and knowledgeable about history, philosophy, etc.

Your view is that one requires such a degree to be: non-ignorant, factual, logical and knowledgeable about history, philosophy, etc. Oh..and to have friends!

But, the problem is, you've shown no evidence of any logical, factual ability in argumentation; you've shown a profound ignorance about logic, about the necessity for substantive premises, a focus only on unsubstantiated conclusions, an indifference to facts, and wow- there's your ever-present readiness to insult. Whew.