The Obamacare Question Of The Day

To be fair, doctors in Canada threatened the same kind of thing. Are they all making so much money that they don't need to work anymore? If not, what? Drive a truck? Move to Canada?
Anyway, it's not about health care which is the most difficult thing, for Canadians who would support what Obama is doing, to understand.

And the best doctors did quit. Some of the best doctors in the world were in Saskatchewan at the time. That quickly changed.

Doctors quiting. The same was said when socialized medicine was introduced in Saskatchewan. Some doctors went on strike, some protested in front of the legislature in Regina, some left the province; we inturn recruited more doctors and eventually many of those doctors protesting fell into line. The government of the day under Tommy Douglas prevailed and socialized medicine stayed and we became the birth place of medicare. It also gave impetus to the formation of community clinics. The passing of the health care bill in the USA is truly historic and though not a panacea for all of the health care woes in the US it is a good start. It is unfortunate that elective abortions were not part of the package, however, perhaps that can come later. Right wingers and tea party advocates are frothing at the mouth and practically are wetting themselves, however, this bill will be law and as Obama stated: "this is what chjnage looks like".

Doctors in Canada didn't threaten, they did leave, and our best been leaving for the US ever since.

Those who ask "where else they gonna go?" have forgotten the obvious: nobody needs to be a doctor.

Obamacare contains a critical contradiction that is bound to result in the total collapse of the American health ins. industry. As the Martin Feldstein article in a November Washington Post article points out, if the fines for not buying ins. are set too low, it's financially advantageous to pay them and forgo ins. altogether.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/05/AR2009110504327.html

Since the bill prohibits health ins. providers from denying ins. based on pre-existing conditions, it may be cheaper in many instances to wait until you are sick before getting coverage.

This will set in motion a progressive unbalancing of health ins. whereby the pool of healthy people in an ins. scheme becomes swamped by the sick. Premiums must therefore skyrocket. But since Obamacare also promises to slap price controls on health ins. the system is set to become vastly unprofitable. At some point not too far down the road, the whole health care ins. system in the U.S. will utterly fail like Chrysler and GM.

At that point, there will be increasing calls for the outright nationalization of the whole mess, which was Obama's goal all along.

T,

You are aware that Canada has a doctor shortage? Worse is our Nurse shortage. Our nurses are treated even worse than our doctors are.

I suppose the good news of Obama care is that we may get some of our doctors back (if they don't move overseas...)

A friend of mine left Ontario in the 90's for work overseas and never came back. He gets ample vacation time, huge money and no taxes. There is no downside to him or his family. They get to see the world with the time and money they wouldn't have in Canada and have there what doctors don't have here: Respect. He's NEVER coming back. Why would he?

Doctors, by and large, are intelligent people who can retrain in other professions, such as dentistry, make more money and have better hours.

The Americans have no idea what they've entered into.

T - the government of the day was "Woodrow Stanley Llyod" - obviously history is immaterial to your talking points.

Some doctors did leave, while many just as qualified and talented stayed or were recruited. Those who believed and believe in the universality of publicly funded health care stayed. Fact remains, that some people, right wingers, are just fundamentally and ideologically opposed to government involvement in health care. I guess they are Darwinian, the survival of the fittest or richest. However, there are those of us that will fight long and hard for socialized medicare. So to those right wingers I say suck it up.

True. Lloyd was Premier, however, the legislation had begun while Douglas was still leader and implemented completely after Lloyd became leader. Dr. Coburn in Saskatoon was on the advisory committee at the time.

Right on Kate. I was just thinking that yesterday, listening to Limbaugh. The brain drain is going to reverse direction, with a vengeance. Watch for a variety of sleazy, slimy, disgusting moves by the CMA and especially the OMA to stem the tide.

Things like two years mandatory "remedial training" in residency for all incoming American doctors, and a mandatory two year rural placement after that.

Still going to be a buttload of guys thinking that's a great deal if Barry's plan works out the way we expect it too: service cuts, pay cuts for doctors, really insane regulations, and a Big Brother Is Watching You all-encompassing medical records capture system. Chart review by non-physician government employees to make sure you filled out your toilet paper usage report for each and every patient.

That last bit, the computerized medical records, I predict is going to be the thing that kills Obamacare. First, we recall the two billion dollar failure that the Ontario medical records system is. Two gigabucks down the tubes with -nothing- to show for it. Same deal as the gun registry, same amount of money involved. Add two zeros for the amount the American effort is going to burn, that's a two hundred billion dollar scandal impacting right about election time 2012.

Then there is the question of whether Americans are really going to let the same people run their medical records that hold their drivers license, gun license, marriage license, hunting license, dog license and their tax records.

The potential for intrusion and abuse is absolutely stunning, and y'all will note that NOBODY is talking about it. Nobody except me, that I know of anyway.

http://phantomsoapbox.blogspot.com/2010/03/fwd-no-you-are-not-being-too-paranoid.html

Let us imagine, hypothetically, a government health and safety bureaucracy with access to your complete medical records, your VISA bill and the customer loyalty cards from the grocery store, drug store, book store, you get the picture.

How'd you like to be the doctor caught in the middle of that? "I'm sorry Mrs. Jones, I can't treat your osteoporosis because your Department of Health report card says you eat too much chocolate. They've refused you."

So yes, there may well be a whole bunch of doctors, nurses, PTs and etc. coming north in the next ten years, starting about five years out.

Or, there will be a revolution.

Okay I woke up now, hahaha, you can stop pretending that this whole health care bill is actually real!

T,

In government run rationed care, darwin already rules: the weak, the old, the unconnected and those without advocacy die on waiting lists so the government can control costs. With private care, the hospital would be sued out of existence for less. In socialized care, there is no accountability and incentive to improve care or even deliver it.

In Canadian hospitals, they are paid a set budget. That means that every patient costs them money but doesn't make them any. To balance their budget, they just decrease the number of patients they see. It's just simple math (a subject far beyond the socialist's capabilities...)

What you get is worse care for almost everyone. Worse yet is the corruption inherent in our system whereby the government sets aside special facilities for themselves so they don't have to suffer. They put in place special rules for WSIB cases so they can fast-track only those who are being paid by the government.

Then there connections. I was seen by a specialist, scheduled for surgery, received my surgery, and had my follow up before the general public would have had their initial consultation. I have a connection. In case you were wondering, NO I don't feel guilty queue jumping. I don't vote for socialist care so I have no guilt doing an end-run around the consequences of it.

And T, you keep going off on abortion (probably a juvenile attempt to stir the pot.) I'm with you. I really think that anyone selfish enough, morally repugnant enough to have an abortion should GET ONE. It cleanses the gene pool. If abortion was free on demand when your mom got knocked up, we'd have one less socialist leftard ruining society. In fact, our whole social system may not have been wrecked. So I ENCOURAGE abortion for all leftards our there. Eliminate your lot from society. Faster please.

Jason, your idiotic personal comments reflect the true nature of most of the right wing lot when discussing any intelligent and relevant topic. Your intelligence or more appropriately lack there of is astounding. There are many right winger's daughters' who have accessed abortion as to not embarrass daddy or mommy at church or in the community. Trust me. Abortion, morally repugnant? I think not; it is a medical procedure. But moreover, thank god we have a univerally accessible, publically funded medicare system. While not perfect, it sure in the hell beats paying some fat cat made for profit HMO.

T:

less than 50% of cdns have a personal physician - the fundamental requirement of proper care. That percentage is declining not increasing. 85% of Americans have one.

A common mistake those on the left make - including you - is that socialist constructs like government-run healthcare can operate indefinitely.

They cannot.

The british NHS is in the latter stages of collapse. The Stalinist Canadian model - even more restrictive than the NHS in some respects - is also failing with runaway costs and declining quality of care despite increased funding. Qualitatively speaking the American model has widened the gap year over year between it and the Canadian system despite handicaps that are largely government's fault - runaway torte and interstate commerce restrictions to name just two issues.

Socialists like you would do well to have a chat with someone from the FSU or Poland or the Czech republic. They would tune you into the ultimate result of socialism and the entitlement quicksand it creates.

Very insightful.

When I was a young chap my father's friend paid me to drive his truck across the province(Alberta) from point A to B. Unfortunately, I was pulled over by the cops because the vehicle wasn't registered.

Later my father explained to me that because the fine for driving an unregistered vehicle was only $50; many people would drive the vehicle for years until there were caught, and then anti-up the $50 bucks ending up with a net gain.

A few years later this fine was raised to $1500 to discourage this very behaviour.

> Obamacare contains a critical contradiction that is bound to result in the total collapse of the American health ins. industry.

It's not an unexpected consequence - it's a goal.

You still believe that Obama is trying to cover uninsured? Ha-ha!

No ruler in the world at this moment is people's leader. They all are members of a puppet show where strings are being pulled this and that way and money flow into the coffers of the puppet masters. They choose the next victim and suck her dry - industry after industry, company after company, profession after profession, country after country.

Just look at them - some people never go away, whatever the government is, they sit on the boards, committees, panels and collect pay. Governments rise and fall - the same people are getting rich.

Live with it, it's too late to change anything because you all are too scared to loose your flat screen TV and GPS navigation.

Doctors, by and large, are intelligent people who can retrain in other professions, such as dentistry, make more money and have better hours.

My sister is a family doctor and makes well over 500,000$ a year. Her life was hectic early on as she worked in the E.R. like most young doctors do, but now she's home every night. Pray tell me what she could retrain into that would top that?

Agreed, this is a stressful job, after all you deal with human misery. In the U.S., they have to fend off lawsuits on top of that.

In any event, there are only two possible outcomes for 'Obamacare':
- it benefits big business/big government (the same thing really) and it will stay.
- it does not benefit big business/big government and it will be repealed.

Barry is about to find out the Law of Unintended Consequences is about to kick in and this law does not have a sense of political correctness.

T uses the dreaded words "for profit". T is incapable of understanding that "for profit" also means productive and efficient. Two words that are never heard in public institutions. Why would they? There is a bottomless pit of taxpayers money to be had (well at least in the reptilian portion of the brains of those who are brain dead - like T).

Competition is paramount....because there are two options. "For profit" private sector or "For sloth" as practiced by the unionized, highly unproductive and inefficient public sector. Unions absolutely GUARANTEE inefficiency. It's what they do.

The US is in deep, DEEP trouble. They are losing their AAA bond status (unheard of before ObaMarxist) which will drive up the cost of them borrowing money. AND they are also heaping on more "entitlements" that they can't afford (medical costs are expected to rise 8% per year....well over the growth of the economy). When interest rates begin to climb and when the printing presses are cranking out money like there is no tomorrow, inflation in the US will go through the roof and their economy will tank. Zimbabwe, anyone?

T is right. The reason I had 50 different South African family doctors through one office growing up (the good ones for shorter periods than the bad) was because the market was just so darn saturated with good doctors they felt they needed to take turns making money. I'm sure they're all still living in Saskatchewan somewhere.

T

You are right, right-wingers must "suck it up".

That said, it is beyond doubt that the Canadian healthcare system will collapse. We will get private healthcare, just not by choice. The logical step for Canadians would be to assess this upfront in a measured manor.

BTW, calling something a "medical procedure" has no bearing on the morality of said procedure. There are many "medical procedures" that have been preformed throughout history that I'm sure you would object to. Correct?

That said, personally and reluctantly I support a woman's right to choose to kill her baby. Where I'm at odds with the left in this case is the Orwellian language used to avoid addressing the moral implications of such procedures. Just as I object to language such as "man made disasters" and "contingency plans". Can't we just be honest and say "We're killing as many Islamic Jihadist's as we can, so(moderate muslims) stay clear, and clean, if you value your own life".

"...and Bush isn't really being all that inaccurate; when he says were winning the war, because it's stagger'n, but that's cause we're killing everyone we see..." K'Naan-People Like Me

T said: "Some doctors did leave, while many just as qualified and talented stayed or were recruited."

T, I strongly suggest you pay attention to that thing Kate said, "Nobody needs to be a doctor." I'm one of those guys. I quit being a PT. I paint now. Its better. And that's the part that you need to be paying attention to, I find it better to stand outside on a ladder all day than to be a physical therapist in an Ontario hospital.

In fact it isn't just better, its WAY better.

Most people outside the profession do not appreciate the percentage of doctors who are approaching retirement age. Most of these people don't need to be working, they could all quit tomorrow morning. Like, 40% of doctors in Ontario. Bang.

Young talented people are not choosing medicine as a career. Over 50% of the new grads are female, and that means they will (on average) practice for ten years before quitting to have a family, after which they will practice part time if at all.

Oh, and the Province of Ontario long time ago reduced the number of medical school, PT/OT school and nursing school seats in our universities. Didn't want to pay all those new professionals when they graduated, see? Cost cutting measure. Central planning, very official and all.

Really they aren't going to replace even half of the people that retire in the next ten years. They can't. Meaning the people who keep working are going to command a much higher dollar, and will have MUCH more power to tell the likes of y'all to f- off. Will those guys work in rural Moose Antler Ontario? Not a chance in hell.

So you go right ahead and "fight long and hard for socialized medicare." I don't have to fight. I don't need to lift a finger, T. All I have to do is sit back and watch the water coming in through the big gaping hole in the hull while you and all your little lefty friends run around rearranging the deck chairs.

Run faster T, maybe there's a configuration of deck chairs that will magically weld the hull shut!

The liberal left use the moral hazard thing intentionally - to wreck. They can then campaign on "fixing".

If insurers cannot refuse a preexisting cause - go premium free until you are sick, then get coverage.

If lenders cannot refuse a mortgage, put nothing down.

T,

You prove my point on the need for your lot to abort. That you see it as nothing more than a medical procedure but get all offended when I suggest YOUR mother should have had one IS my point. You don't have the mental capacity to truly see what abortion means except insofar as you get all huffy when I suggest the dead should have been you. You don't seem to be able to connect the dots between your desire not to be killed while advocating it be someone else who is - and for the most frivolous reasons. The scarlet letter days are long past. There is no longer the same consequence to getting knocked up young and a whole lot of people who have abortions don't even fall into that category. They're just selfish and irresponsible.

You lot pretend to care for the needy but who is of more need of help that a baby?

You don't have to be a bible-thumping southern baptist to see it. You just have to be able to think of something besides yourself. I'm an atheist. I don't think abortion is repugnant because "god" told me so but because I have the ability to think. I support your mom's right to abortion because of people like you. You may think of that as a contradiction but it is not.

As for the daughters of religious people having abortions, you miss the fact that having a religion doesn't make you live it. It's also a fact that that lot are far, far, far less likely to have an abortion for a host of reasons you wouldn't understand.

And as for "fat cat" HMO's and their profits, socialist medicare IS an HMO. It just happens to be inefficient, unaccountable, uncaring and uncivilized for those who have no insider to advocate on their behalf. Government HMO means sitting on a gurney in your own waste while the nurse walks on by because she's too overworked to deal with it. The very same money issues are at play but on a grander scale and without patient choice. You are a number to the government as well and only a leftard halfwit believes some faceless unaccountable bean-counter in a government bureaucracy would be dumb enough to think otherwise. The ONLY difference between a government bean-counter and a private-sector bean-counter is that the government bean counter doesn't have to bother to include the metrics for lawsuits for poor service because in a government monopoly there isn't that sort of accountability.

You are just too stupid to see the problem with government anything. One supposes you've never been on the receiving end of it and have no ability to empathize with those who have done the suffering for your stupidity. Leftards, having the emotional intelligence of little children and the inability to put themselves in another's shoes is exactly what is the root of your evil.

T: "and we became the birth place of medicare."

A myth -- but T certainly does have his left-wing talking points nailed.

"Those who believed and believe in the universality of publicly funded health care stayed."

Another myth: some physicians enter the profession because of a "social conscience," but most don't; and many of the kind T characterizes above have gone to the US out of frustration with a system that simply doesn't work for average people. Health care isn't about morality or "justice"; it's about health. Socialists don't seem to get this. Rather than allow a person to purchase his care, they'd prefer to see two people die on a wait-list instead of one -- that's social justice for you.

"Abortion, morally repugnant? I think not; it is a medical procedure."

No matter what side a person takes on this issue, to claim that abortion doesn't involve grave ethical problems is simply obtuse.

Jason says "Government HMO means sitting on a gurney in your own waste while the nurse walks on by because she's too overworked to deal with it."

Well perhaps because she's too "overworked", but more likely because the union contract does not allow her to do that work. It "belongs" to some other union hack. Union agreements are behind a very large part of the inefficiencies in the public health care system (as they are everywhere).

At that point, there will be increasing calls for the outright nationalization of the whole mess, which was Obama's goal all along.

Of course it was Obama's goal all along.

Sorry to be sounding like a broken record here, but I have been saying for over a year now that Obama is the Cloward Piven Candidate.

Cloward Piven strategy in short;

Manufacture crisis after crisis to overwhelm the ( capitalist ) system and use the opportunity to install socialism.

Everyone should read about Obama's past and about the Cloward Piven strategy.

The puzzle pieces fit so neatly you will fall off your chair.

The thing most, especially T, is that this has little or nothing to do with Health Care or Health Insurance.
Obamacare has only a nominal resemblance to Canada's Medicare or the British NHS. Both are far superior and still are failing.

The policitcal purpose for the hard-left is a coup-d'etat. This is known as Cloward/Plivin. What it involves is deliberate mismanagement to destroy the existing social order and then seize what emerges in the vacuum. That's what Lenin and the Bolsheviks did. But all to frequently this ends badly for the perpetrators.

The ring-leaders of the French Revolution met their ends on the guillotine. The litany of dead revolutionaies in Latin America is long.

"The revolution comsumes it's children."

It's sort of like starting an avelanche and then trying to stay ahead of it and direct it....not a recommended enterprise.

Note that this is not 1860. A civil war in the USA will have serious effects for Canada. When the s**t hit's the fan, it will be difficult to avoid the splash.

Watch for Secessionist movements to spring up in a number of States. This is going to get real ugly.

Speaking of health care, the LIEberals have a motion dealing with Canada's foreign health aims, specifically family planning and contraception issues.

Let's look back at one of my favourite ...."GREAT MOMENTS in LIEBERAL flexible moral relativism", shall we?

If memory serves me well, and today it does, there is the story of a very fertile LIBERAL SOLICITOR GENERAL, now LIEBERAL adviser, who in a "family planning" moment, FORGED his lovers husbands SIGNATURE, so she could obtain an abortion. Her buisness I guess.

Gawd there are so many of these nuggets left behind when socialist take action!!

Who thinks our Socialist Health Care here in Canada is just dandy? Not me.
People waiting up to 2-3 years for hip replacements, etc. Give them a pill and send them home. Endure the pain. You will be dead by the time you are called for surgery most likely.
Doctors saying you are totally cleared of any signs of cancer and 3 weeks later you are dead from it all through your body.
People being sent home after major surgery attached to IV's for a wife or husband to administer.
So many stories out there to be told of the disaster we have here in Canada.
40% of taxes going to health care.
Give me a break if you think we are getting super health care in Canada - you must be on drugs.

What T ignores is that Americans DO have universal health care. The question is on how it is paid for - because in all cases, such care must be funded. T ignores this basic requirement. Not only the doctors, nurses, techicians but the equipment, supplies and buildings must be paid for.

In the US, the individual himself decides to pay. He can do this directly, where he pays the doctor for service. For regular care this can be the least expensive method; you pay only for what you use.
The problem with this method is that it doesn't cover risk; it doesn't cover the statistically fewer large scale problems of accident or serious illness.

A way to deal with the risk situation is to pool the risk. Get together with a collective and everyone pays into it for the risk health problems. That reduces your burden and ensures your coverage. You continue to pay for regular care; it's cheaper that way. But, your payments must cover administrative costs.

A more comprehensive idea is more expensive, where you get together with others to cover almost all medical expenses, the normal and the risk. This is expensive; the administrative costs go up as well.

The socialist idea moves this comprehensive plan into govt control. The problem with this is that costs increase exponoentially in the public versus the private sector. The public service unions and the bloating of bureaucracy ensure that the costs of administration move into a privileged role..while the money available for services is reduced.

What this system sets up is one where some people are getting services without paying for them. This means that those who do pay taxes are having to support them, as well as theirselves. This reduces the services because no system can sustain itself this way.

We've seen this in Canada, where many people are unable to find a family doctor, as so many leave for the US - where both income and equipment and treatment and research are superior. And where services are reduced in quality and quantity. So, you may want eye exams every year but the Canadian health care system won't pay for it. And, there are other treatments and exams the public health care system won't pay for.

So, in socialized health care, what we see happening are the development of private health care plans, where you pay on your own for benefits. Universities, govt bureaucracies, private companies, all have such plans. They cover the services the public one doesn't cover.

The problems in costs and service with Obamacare have been pointed out by others. His plan really has little to do with health and is essentially the introduction of a statist infrastructure into the US.

It is this statist infrastructure that is the ke problem, for statism is a direct attack on the middle class. Without a middle class, who are free individuals engaged in private enterprise, the innovative entrepreneurship of a nation goes into a deep freeze. That is the problem.

Someone like T doesn't understand basic social infrastructures of economic modes and operates only within the utopian narratives of rhetoric. These have nothing to do with Darwin; just basic economic and societal rules.

greeneck said: "My sister is a family doctor and makes well over 500,000$ a year."

Yah, great job. Awesome to be making $500k. At $25 per visit, she's pounding a lot of people through that office every day. Gets tiring, don't it?

The point is pretty soon your sister's going to be doing that same job, only double the patient load, for $100k. That's if socialized medicine continues to be the only game in town. Doctors are evil, you know. They don't deserve those big salaries.

Guys who own little burger joints make better money than that. You think your sister could hack running a couple of Harveys? $200k a year clear profit, and no watching old ladies DIE waiting for treatment.

I think she won't be stuck driving cab dude, know what I mean?

Exactly, Phantom.

I work with a couple med school grads who pulled the plug when they realized the battle wasn't worth winning.

They now make $200k to move little blips that represent airplanes around the screen and couldn't be happier.

Obama talked today about creating larger insurance pools that would spread out the risk.

Therefore, Obama cannot stand in the way of an even larger economy of scale ... allowing health care insurers to operate outside of state borders and take off those restrictions that limit their ability to spread risk.

It really makes no sense to have insurance pools based only on place of employment, since those are, by definition, smaller than pools that cross state lines.

See how easy it is to raise the level of debate above name-calling?

BHO knows that come November the democrats will be voted out and he will no longer be able to pull off majority votes, so he must have a plan in place to keep control - my guess is some form of martial law, so I am wondering if a large scale homeland security threat is imminent between now and November.

An abortion is not a medically necessary procedure, except in extremely RARE cases, so why must I pay for them? Abortions are performed 99% of the time for convenience sake or to avoid embarrassment. Being pregnant is not a disease that requires treatment - the child within the womb is not a tumour that needs to be removed, nor is the child a disease that needs to be eradicated. If someone wants an abortion, they can pay for it out of their own pocket.

We have become a society that accepts the death of its citizens if their existence is somehow inconvenient or will cost too much, either socially or monetarily, this is why the push for euthanasia and assisted suicide in Canada is so frightening - we are essentially at the mercy of a generation that thinks it a "right" to kill for convenience sake. This generation is an ethical void, and has embraced narcissism as a religion and/or lifestyle choice.

Headline: "Obama Finally Earns Nobel Prize".

Phantasmo nailed it!

If T and his ilk had their way, people that own "burger joints" and snake toilets would not make "$200k a year clear profit". This is the root cause of the envy T feels. T likely believes that spending big buck$ on education should translate into big buck$ on the pay check. T likely doesn't care that nobody really wants the services many low paid University grads offer, he feels entitled to a cut of the $$'s earned by those providing a service that IS in demand; because in his view, he deserves it, he’s superior, thus the support for wealth redistribution. Furthermore, T doesn't realize that the results of the policies he supports are designed to intentionally prevent the economic lower class (that he claims to advocate for) from progress and economic success; or, he knows this, is disingenuous, and a creep.

Many on the left argue that once on welfare it’s near impossible to get off because of the punitive financial measures levied when the recipient tries to supplement his/her welfare check with additional working income. I agree, it’s a trap! What’s frustrating is that he and his ilk cannot make the correlation between this argument, and the common anti-socialist argument on this site. It’s a bloody trap!

OT

I couldn't resist spending $6(soon to be $100 American) at the specialty candy store this weekend for small tin of mints.

There called: Commie Candy- Mints for the People.

I luv it.

[quote]T - the government of the day was "Woodrow Stanley Lloyd" - obviously history is immaterial to your talking points.[/quote] TPB

Yes "T" has limited facts at his fingertips...The Doctors actually WON the right to NOT to be common employees of the Socialist Gov’t...Lloyd’s original Plan considered Doctors to be in the same category as Teachers...Most Socialists, of the day, considered the final agreement a failure. “ T” read the History of Thatcher; CCF MP that became the Liberal leader in Sask

I really don't care who controls health care as long as its efficient for Patients & efficient in Cost..."Unions are organized to PROFIT union Workers"

A) I reject Ghetto health care centers

B) I reject waiting Lists (they are evidence of failed systems)

C)I reject the Theft of Medicare Funds (which are funds paid by past Workers & employers)

I need to go to Search Light, NV on the 27th and do my own count of Supporting Snipers....

Already a way around the system but that "fine" of 2.5% of income is probably just a starting amount which one can expect to grow rapidly as the system runs out of money.

One unexpected benefit of US drug laws might be in Obamacare falling apart far sooner than expected. In Canada, opiate prescribing is quite liberal in contrast to the US and this is how one prevents people waiting 2 years for a hip replacement from driving their Buick through the front window of the local health authority office while they are in severe pain for 1-2 years waiting for a joint replacement. Of course, after 2 years on opiates, the pain memory is usually strong enough that these people don't get off opiates ever.

Right now in the US severe osteoarthritis pain is treated with rapid joint replacement which minimizes opiate requirements. To prescribe opiates in the US in the same manner that they are prescribed in Canada will likely get a doctor charged with "trafficking" and chances of going to jail are fairly high (a common tactic to minimize the chance of going to court is to seize all the doctors assets as "proceeds of crime" making it harder to get a lawyer). I doubt that the US anti-drug industry/prison industry is going to disappear as it is just far too profitable for the people who work in this field. Thus, if US drug laws stay the same there will be an increasing population of people who have to wait for surgery in a lot of pain and I doubt they're going to suffer in silence.

T hasn't told anyone how this "historic" bill is going to be paid for. Until he does, ignore him.
Scratch that. Ignore him anyway.
When my Commonwealth-educated mother wanted to re-enter the nursing profession, she was placed at the bottom of the rung in Canada not because she lacked the training, experience or language but because someone could do that. That's the glory of socialised anything for you. The system could be in need up to its eyeballs and still find a way to be a bureaucratic nuisance.

To all the starry-eyed liberals out there who believe that Obamacare is the medical equivalent of Santa Claus, just remember that while an ins. company may be legally obligated to sell you ins. no matter what your medical condition, it is under no obligation to expedite that medical care.

Since hospitals, doctors and insurers will be guaranteed to lose money treating most patients thanks to price controls enacted under Obamacare, all ins. will get you is a place in a lineup for you to wait for treatment.

The Americans have no idea what they've entered into.

Posted by: Mark Peters at March 23, 2010 10:36 AM
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I don't know Mark, we ain't too stupid. 49.9% of us didn't vote for Obambi. I know that looks bad, but hey, ACORN submitted over 10 million absentee ballots.

Reminds me of back in the 80's Louisiana mandated all Daycares be Licensed under State Law. Hence; Licensing Fees, Sheriff's Fees, Parish Fees, State Police Fees, Chamber of Commerce Fees, Background check Fees, finger-printing Fees, semi-annual CPR Training Fees, State processing Fees, Food and Beverage Fees, and then the new and improved $250,000 per kid Van Insurance, and the $100,000 per kid Building Insurance, followed by the updated playground equipment fees, had to start posting Menu's with nutritional values, couldn't just tell your parents their kid had several bowl movements had to be in writing, we also had to have a daily Report on each kid about their attitudes, their biting habits, whether they were happy when they showed up in the mornings, when you changed the toddles we had to look for signs of abuse(something we did anyway), but the kicker was, the 1,800 new Gov't jobs created for Daycare Inspectors and the 12 High-Paid State Jobs for the Board of Directors. And, not even one single person on the Board had owned a Daycare, worked at a Daycare, or even owned a Business. They all came from the School System, or were former Alderman, or Mayors. Damnest thing I ever saw.

Of course, Daycare went from $35 bucks for a single kid per week to $80 in three years. We are sitting at about $100 per week now.

Yea, I got a good idea what ObamaCare is gona do.
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There is simple test on this.

1) Social Security - Mandated Retirement Plans - Insolvent
2) Medicare - Mandated Retirement Health care - Insolvent

See the pattern here? Fill in the ?? below.

3) Health Care Reform - Mandated Health Insurance (subsidized) - ??

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and aver and expecting a different result.

Well I see that no insurance company can refuse coverage based on pre-existing conditions. Is it anywhere written that insurance companies must provide health coverage?

Don't be too hard on T. He/she is still upset that the system he/she would like to impose on all of us was turfed out by the Russians, Ukrainians and the satellite states.

BTW, these countries by and large have two-tier health care, something T would deny us. In the Ukraine the clinics are open off hours for those who want to avail themselves of this service.

Joe, you've pretty much nailed it. As I interpret this bill, it's designed to poison the well, so to speak. The end game for the left-wing radicals heading up the current Democrat party is a single payer health care system like we have here in Canada. Obama has said as much in recent years, prior to his presidential run.

This bill is just the first, albeit significant step, in that direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE

T at March 23, 2010 10:23 AM

So, you are saying Tommy Douglas was a strike breaker - and you are happy for it.